politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Britain is a how many party system?

Off topic, the brains trust here is thinking of laying the draw on Arsenal/Wigan at 5/1 on the basis it's no good to anyone...

tim said:

@DavidL

What on earth makes you think the EU is any more popular up here than it is down there?

The polling mainly, as anyone with any political knowledge knows.
PB Scottish Tories are not renowned for their political knowledge unfortunately

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/scotland-attitudes-towards-EU-membership-2013-tables.pdf

Ah yes the polling excuse, because things never change. How's that UKIP are irrelevant thing going ?

No mention of race in the BBC report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22438623

Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?

Ref the line-ups for an In/Out vote.

The swing vote is Cameron's. Roger overstates the influence that the advocacy of Shirley Williams, for example, will have (indeed, it's notable how many on his list were 20th century politicians with some who were active in the 1975 referendum), but the overall picture is not a million miles off. If all three party leaders are on the same side, chances are the vote will go with them; if any one goes with Out, that boosts its credibility immensely. As Miliband and Clegg are pro-EU no matter what, that leaves Cameron. Would he advocate a No? In order to negotiate credibly, both with the EU and within his own party, I can't see that he can avoid saying that he's open to the option.

taffys said:

Off topic, the brains trust here is thinking of laying the draw on Arsenal/Wigan at 5/1 on the basis it's no good to anyone...

Just because Sunderland, Villa and Spurs fans will cheer a draw to the rafters doesn't mean it won't happen

@Morris_Dancer

If Scotland were in the EU and rUK not the cross border trading implications would be truly horrendous.

@Tim So 58% want a referendum and 38% in Scotland don't. In February, before the UKIP surge. A bit closer than England I suppose but not exactly a winner for Salmond is it? Probably not far off the outcome of the referendum actually.

Odd decision perhaps. The European Commission is planning to phase out 1 and 2 centime coins as they cost too much. price increases ahoy.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/argent/2013/05/14/05010-20130514ARTFIG00472-bruxelles-envisage-de-supprimer-les-centimes-d-euros.php

Mr. Flashman (deceased), surely the Blessed Salmond has shown us the way:

Should the United Kingdom be an independent country?

@Tim
I think I must have missed the question when Scots were asked, "If rUK left the EU would you be in favour of an independent Scotland remaining in the EU?"

Only a lunatic could answer "yes" to that. Scotland's economy is far, far more integrated with rUK than the EU and it will be for a very long time. Imagine the VAT documentation, the tariffs, the livestock restrictions, it really goes on and on.

This is a silly line for Salmond to take.

TGOHF said:

Worth remembering on referendums - Labour refused to give the SNP one on indy - no surprise they don't want to give us an EU one.

All the unionist parties combined to block a referendum on Scottish independence before the SNP secured a majority. Under Wendy Alexander Labour came closer to agreeing to a referendum than the other unionist parties (they obviously didnt agree to it in the end).

Alanbrooke said:

Odd decision perhaps. The European Commission is planning to phase out 1 and 2 centime coins as they cost too much. price increases ahoy.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/argent/2013/05/14/05010-20130514ARTFIG00472-bruxelles-envisage-de-supprimer-les-centimes-d-euros.php

Should do the same for 1p and 2p in this country.

tim said:

Neil said:

Morris_Dancer said:

No mention of race in the BBC report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22438623

Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?

You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?

Morris Dancer uses a braille computer, hence the fact that he believes formula one is a visually stimulating experience.

You have no soul, brain or financial sense.

Which is why you enjoy football.

(Waits for the howls...)

Actually, Formula One (and motorsport in general) appeals to the more intelligent. It is about not just physical fitness and tactics, but also intelligence.

None of the F1 drivers are in any way thick; they are all fairly intelligent. They have to be too understand everything that is going on around them, in a technical sense.

Whereas many (most?) football players are pig-thick.

tim said:

“Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union?

"Do you think" will have to be changed to "Should" won't it?

"Do you agree", surely!

Blue_rog said:

It would be interesting to know if these men describe themselves as devout followers of their religion. If so how can their acts be rationalised with their religion.

As Pulpstar said: you stop seeing people as human, you don't feel the need to treat them as human.

The normal framework for interacting with people is simply not applied. Empathy: nope. Sympathy: nope. Morality: irrelevant.

MikeK said:

Conservatives publish EU referendum bill
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22518403

So when is a referendum bill not a referendum bill: when you cannot vote yay or nay.
http://order-order.com/2013/05/14/tory-draft-eu-bill-does-not-mandate-any-change/

The big bluff from Cammo exposed. I'm loving Guido.

In fairness, if the Bill were to provide for secession in the event of a "no" vote, it would either have to concede Henry VIII powers to the Privy Council or be several hundred pages long. The latter approach was ruled out by constraints of time, and the impossibility of drafting such a Bill at the present time. The former is more feasible, but probably unacceptable as a matter of statutory draftsmanship. The draft Bill is a worthless political stunt. It has been published by the Conservatives rather than by Her Majesty's Government, and won't be subject to Parliamentary scrutiny as is normally the case for draft legislation.

Pulpstar said:

Anorak said:

Neil said:

Morris_Dancer said:

No mention of race in the BBC report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22438623

Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?

You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?

The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.

Parallels with the Nazis & Jews I'm afraid - easier to sub-humanise a different 'race' if people are so minded. Its a particularly nasty bit of the human psyche that can have awful consequences (Rwanda - Tutsis/Hutus). Obviously this case is very different to genocide but the underlying subhumanisation is there methinks.

I agree. These people are subhumanising young white girls.

Neil said:

I'll happily offer you 1/4, Richard

So that's a Yes, then?

It was a question rather than a suggestion that he might not be - I don't know enough about the internal machinations to know how grata a persona Nick would be with those who pay the piper.

RichardNabavi said:

On a completely separate subject: Given the controversy about Unite's influence on Labour parliamentary selections, is Nick P of this parish quite such a shoo-in for the Broxtowe candidacy as we've been assuming?

I do hope so ! Got a few pennies on Labour there, and I'd feel safer about my cash with Nick P as the candidate there.

Blue_rog said:

Pulpstar said:

Anorak said:

Neil said:

Morris_Dancer said:

No mention of race in the BBC report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22438623

Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?

You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?

The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.

Parallels with the Nazis & Jews I'm afraid - easier to sub-humanise a different 'race' if people are so minded. Its a particularly nasty bit of the human psyche that can have awful consequences (Rwanda - Tutsis/Hutus). Obviously this case is very different to genocide but the underlying subhumanisation is there methinks.

I agree. These people are subhumanising young white girls.

I fear that has become undeniable. And the reason they are able to do that (one suspects) is that they think our children are brought up without morals or discipline or the sort of restrictions that they would apply to their own female children. And the reason they think this is because these people are not integrated into our society nor do they have any respect for its own principles including gender equality. They have brought the society of rural Pakistan with them and we have, perversely, encouraged it to flourish in the name of multi-culturalism.

I think one really does have to conclude that anyone who thinks a draft referendum with a simple question asking if we should stay in the EU is some kind of bluff or con is a no-holds-barred, A1, frothing, conspiracy-loon fruitcake.

From Wiki

Life imprisonment (also known as a life sentence, lifelong incarceration or life incarceration) is any sentence of imprisonment for a serious crime under which the convicted person is to remain in jail for the rest of his or her life or until paroled. Examples of crimes for which a person could receive this sentence include murder, severe child abuse, rape, high treason, drug dealing or human trafficking, or aggravated cases of burglary or robbery resulting in death or grievous bodily harm.

So I hope these animals are sentenced to life imprisonment for each offence to run in series.

@Neil
"but that doesnt extend to sabotaging Labour's chances of an overall majority (because they would be completely counterproductive)."

So not like the euro headbangers then?

Blue_rog said:

So I hope these animals are sentenced to life imprisonment for each offence to run in series.

A sentence of life imprisonment is a term of imprisonment for life, and so cannot by definition run consecutively to any other sentence.

tim said:

Speaking of reselections is As a Father Dave getting his A lister "Local Mother Of Four" Maria Hutchings selected again in Eastleigh do you know?

No idea, but the final decision will presumably be the local constituency association's.

DavidL said:

Blue_rog said:

Pulpstar said:

Anorak said:

Neil said:

Morris_Dancer said:

No mention of race in the BBC report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22438623

Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?

You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?

The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.

Parallels with the Nazis & Jews I'm afraid - easier to sub-humanise a different 'race' if people are so minded. Its a particularly nasty bit of the human psyche that can have awful consequences (Rwanda - Tutsis/Hutus). Obviously this case is very different to genocide but the underlying subhumanisation is there methinks.

I agree. These people are subhumanising young white girls.

I fear that has become undeniable. And the reason they are able to do that (one suspects) is that they think our children are brought up without morals or discipline or the sort of restrictions that they would apply to their own female children. And the reason they think this is because these people are not integrated into our society nor do they have any respect for its own principles including gender equality. They have brought the society of rural Pakistan with them and we have, perversely, encouraged it to flourish in the name of multi-culturalism.

At least two of them were Eritreans. Presumably the children of refugees who sought sanctuary here during one or other of the wars in the Horn of Africa.

@OldKingCole

I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.

I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.

More evidence, if it were needed, that Michael Green is a compulsive liar.

"Conservative chairman Grant Shapps told BBC Radio 4's The World at One that the draft bill had been in preparation for several months and the timing of its publication had nothing to do with Wednesday's vote."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22518403

@Tim

"Morris Dancer uses a braille computer,"

Apparently it's possible to get a braille version of 'Playboy'

(It's all this talk of reconstructing breasts)

DavidL said:

@OldKingCole

I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.

I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.

There are many depressingly familiar aspects to this story, on top of the ethnic ones: kids from a care home, many attempts to alert the authorities, all ignored. It's a story heard time and time again in this country in abuse cases where the accused come from every kind of background. It is utterly shameful.

Scott_P said:

@BBCNormanS: Alex Salmond says a vote for Independence is a vote to stay in EU; a vote for union is a vote towards the EU exit door

Except he is wrong on both counts

A vote for Separation is a vote to try and renegotiate entry back in the EU on fantastically favourable terms

A vote for the Union is a vote for renegotiation from within and a further vote on the outcome of the negotiations

Numpty

appropriate signature at bottom of your post , you know yourself well just missing yours sincerely

SouthamObserver said:

There are many depressingly familiar aspects to this story, on top of the ethnic ones: kids from a care home, many attempts to alert the authorities, all ignored. It's a story heard time and time again in this country in abuse cases where the accused come from every kind of background. It is utterly shameful.

It's also another sex abuse case in which it was felt that the defendants couldn't get a fair trial in the locality. The Rochdale & Oldham cases were tried at Liverpool, the Oxford case at the Bailey. That is interesting in and of itself.

'Regardless of your views on Europe, this is all TREMENDOUS FUN!' shippers

malcolmg said:

TGOHF said:

http://order-order.com/2013/05/14/exclusive-tory-draft-europe-bill/

Referendum must be held before 31 December 2017*

The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is— “Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union?”*





* Unless LD/Lab win the election

LOL, almost exactly the wording they wailed and gnashed their teeth about on the Scottish referendum. Changed agree to think , you could not make these shysters up.

Agree to think is an important change. Agree frames it as an existing positive view of "yes" that the voter is asked if they go along with.

In fairness to the Beeb....the R4 news leads with the Oxford convictions, then mentions that 'all the men were of Pakistani or North African origin...'

Why is it UK vs "Europe"? Do France and Germany have identical views on everything. And do Italy and Spain always agree with both of them?

tim said:

@JosiasJessop.

Savile wasn't convicted.
Yet the PB tories dribbled and rooled over that case for weeks, because it involved the BBC.
OK they slowed down when it became clear he was given the keys to Broadmoor by a Tory govt and was a close friend of a Tory PM.

But did I see you objecting because he hadn't been convicted?

No I didn't, because you are a hypocrite

It'd be quite hard to get a conviction on Saville given the circumstances. Or various other people who are now dead. We can only say that, in lieu of a court case, they are probably guilty of some heinous crimes.

I probably didn't comment at the time, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because discussion on here was banned.

I have probably more reason than most on here not to want to stir any anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant feeling or resentment. Yet I can see that there is some commonality in the recent gang grooming cases that may need investigating, and the causes addressing.

You do not. You would rather brush it under the carpet because it suits your political ends.

I care about the poor kids involved, and want to understand the reasons, to try and prevent it happening again (and that also includes other cases).

You just want your political party to win, whatever the cost.

Like Stafford.
Like these cases.

Interesting piece by Mark Easton contains this:

"In Oxford, an imam who knew some of the grooming gang as they were growing up, has talked of the responsibilities of the wider community. "I can say it's a problem of the whole Muslim community and we have to rectify it," said Sheikh Hojjat Ramzy.

"I say to them, my brothers, my sisters, wake up. You are in England. You are British. You must integrate. You must look after the children. There is an issue and we cannot put it under the carpet. Enough is enough."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22522232

I really couldn't put it better myself.

JosiasJessop said:

tim said:

@JosiasJessop.

Savile wasn't convicted.
Yet the PB tories dribbled and rooled over that case for weeks, because it involved the BBC.
OK they slowed down when it became clear he was given the keys to Broadmoor by a Tory govt and was a close friend of a Tory PM.

But did I see you objecting because he hadn't been convicted?

No I didn't, because you are a hypocrite

It'd be quite hard to get a conviction on Saville given the circumstances. Or various other people who are now dead. We can only say that, in lieu of a court case, they are probably guilty of some heinous crimes.

I probably didn't comment at the time, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because discussion on here was banned.

I have probably more reason than most on here not to want to stir any anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant feeling or resentment. Yet I can see that there is some commonality in the recent gang grooming cases that may need investigating, and the causes addressing.

You do not. You would rather brush it under the carpet because it suits your political ends.

I care about the poor kids involved, and want to understand the reasons, to try and prevent it happening again (and that also includes other cases).

You just want your political party to win, whatever the cost.

Like Stafford.
Like these cases.

And a little more:

One commonality in many of these cases, whether committed by ethnic minorities or luvvies, are children homes and the care systems. That is one aspect that needs addressing as a matter of urgency. Quite how it is addressed is another matter.

But the biggest problem is a matter of respect. Too many children in this country - both girls and boys - are being raised to have no respect for themselves. They need to know that they have an intellect, they are precious, and they could be the next Einstein or Hurst. They can say no.

They need to love themselves, not look for love from others.

tim said:

@JosiasJessop.

Savile wasn't convicted.
Yet the PB tories dribbled and drooled over that case for weeks, because it involved the BBC.
OK they slowed down when it became clear he was given the keys to Broadmoor by a Tory govt and was a close friend of a Tory PM.

But did I see you objecting because he hadn't been convicted?

No I didn't, because you are a hypocrite

And another counterpoint to your post:

I talked about the Australian church rape cases on here in the last year, including listing them.

But you sort of ignored that, didn't you?