Whilst I brilliantly predicted the rather obvious line this would add to the Caledonian referendum I forgot to take it to its logical conclusion.
Salmond would propose to leave the UK, join the EU and use sterling as his currency? So he'd have monetary policy set in London and fiscal constraints (fiscal compact, remember?) provided by Brussels?
And that's without UK limitations on spending/borrowing if he wants a lender of last resort.
when he's not busy headbutting people, Joyce can still make some decent thoughts.
Bristol South shortlist is: Amanda Ramsay (supported by Unions & Co-Op. She campaigns with the "Local Choice with a National Voice" slogan), Karin Smyth (used to work for former Bristol West Labour MP), Barbara Brown (Equality Officer at the Fire Brigade..because yes, they have their equality officer). In terms of nominations, it is a quite open race.
The swing vote is Cameron's. Roger overstates the influence that the advocacy of Shirley Williams, for example, will have (indeed, it's notable how many on his list were 20th century politicians with some who were active in the 1975 referendum), but the overall picture is not a million miles off. If all three party leaders are on the same side, chances are the vote will go with them; if any one goes with Out, that boosts its credibility immensely. As Miliband and Clegg are pro-EU no matter what, that leaves Cameron. Would he advocate a No? In order to negotiate credibly, both with the EU and within his own party, I can't see that he can avoid saying that he's open to the option.
If Scotland were in the EU and rUK not the cross border trading implications would be truly horrendous.
@Tim So 58% want a referendum and 38% in Scotland don't. In February, before the UKIP surge. A bit closer than England I suppose but not exactly a winner for Salmond is it? Probably not far off the outcome of the referendum actually.
S Cambs is not the best example for Harry to have given of a potential 4 way marginal . The results on May 2nd for the divisions making up the seat were Con 9,600 LD 8,300 Lab 4,700 UKIP 4,000 Green 2,000 There is one division split with another parliamentary constituency so there is a small amount of assumption made but it will not change the general picture .
Tory nutters have gifted Salmond this line 0 norman smith @BBCNormanS Alex Salmond says a vote for Independence is a vote to stay in EU; a vote for union is a vote towards the EU exit door
What makes you think they're unhappy about that? (the 'nutters' I mean)
Lol - Salmond on track to lose 2 referendums in 3 years - is that a record ?
Nothing has changed in the SNP mindset over the past 70 years ; Europe = Good ; Britain = Bad.
" Donaldson gave great praise to Germany saying that England would be completely crushed by the early spring; the Government would leave the country and that England's position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland on the other hand had great possibilities. We must, he declared, be able to show the German Government that we are organised and that we have a clear cut policy for the betterment of Scotland; that we have tried our best to persuade the English Government that we want Scottish Independence and that we are not in with them in this war. If we can do that you can be sure that Germany will give us every possible assistance in our early struggle. "
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?
The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.
In terms of newsworthiness, the specific race of perpetrators and victims is not, to me, the issue here. The racial motivation or (worse) cultural justification for these heinous acts most certainly is.
@Tim I think I must have missed the question when Scots were asked, "If rUK left the EU would you be in favour of an independent Scotland remaining in the EU?"
Only a lunatic could answer "yes" to that. Scotland's economy is far, far more integrated with rUK than the EU and it will be for a very long time. Imagine the VAT documentation, the tariffs, the livestock restrictions, it really goes on and on.
Worth remembering on referendums - Labour refused to give the SNP one on indy - no surprise they don't want to give us an EU one.
All the unionist parties combined to block a referendum on Scottish independence before the SNP secured a majority. Under Wendy Alexander Labour came closer to agreeing to a referendum than the other unionist parties (they obviously didnt agree to it in the end).
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?
The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.
Parallels with the Nazis & Jews I'm afraid - easier to sub-humanise a different 'race' if people are so minded. Its a particularly nasty bit of the human psyche that can have awful consequences (Rwanda - Tutsis/Hutus). Obviously this case is very different to genocide but the underlying subhumanisation is there methinks.
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?
The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.
In terms of newsworthiness, the specific race of perpetrators and victims is not, to me, the issue here. The racial motivation or (worse) cultural justification for these heinous acts most certainly is.
Completely agree and of course it would be exactly the same were the races of the victims and abusers reversed
It would be interesting to know if these men describe themselves as devout followers of their religion. If so how can their acts be rationalised with their religion.
Worth remembering on referendums - Labour refused to give the SNP one on indy - no surprise they don't want to give us an EU one.
All the unionist parties combined to block a referendum on Scottish independence before the SNP secured a majority. Under Wendy Alexander Labour came closer to agreeing to a referendum than the other unionist parties (they obviously didnt agree to it in the end).
A bit like all the Uk parties refused to have a female leader until the Conservatives did.
It would be interesting to know if these men describe themselves as devout followers of their religion. If so how can their acts be rationalised with their religion.
Aren't women supposed to be second class citizens in many Eastern societies?
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?
Morris Dancer uses a braille computer, hence the fact that he believes formula one is a visually stimulating experience.
You have no soul, brain or financial sense.
Which is why you enjoy football.
(Waits for the howls...)
Actually, Formula One (and motorsport in general) appeals to the more intelligent. It is about not just physical fitness and tactics, but also intelligence.
None of the F1 drivers are in any way thick; they are all fairly intelligent. They have to be too understand everything that is going on around them, in a technical sense.
Whereas many (most?) football players are pig-thick.
All the unionist parties combined to block a referendum on Scottish independence before the SNP secured a majority. Under Wendy Alexander Labour came closer to agreeing to a referendum than the other unionist parties (they obviously didnt agree to it in the end).
That's probably Harry's way of admitting that Scottish Tories are an irrelevance. TBF I don't think he's ever been a surger. Wendy was very quickly given the hairdryer by Gordon Brown after the 'Bring it on' fiasco.
"Labour people are confirming today that their MPs will be whipped to oppose a referendum vote on the Queen's Speech tomorrow, and that the party will then oppose any move to pass the legislation as a private members' bill."
It would be interesting to know if these men describe themselves as devout followers of their religion. If so how can their acts be rationalised with their religion.
As Pulpstar said: you stop seeing people as human, you don't feel the need to treat them as human.
The normal framework for interacting with people is simply not applied. Empathy: nope. Sympathy: nope. Morality: irrelevant.
On a completely separate subject: Given the controversy about Unite's influence on Labour parliamentary selections, is Nick P of this parish quite such a shoo-in for the Broxtowe candidacy as we've been assuming?
The big bluff from Cammo exposed. I'm loving Guido.
In fairness, if the Bill were to provide for secession in the event of a "no" vote, it would either have to concede Henry VIII powers to the Privy Council or be several hundred pages long. The latter approach was ruled out by constraints of time, and the impossibility of drafting such a Bill at the present time. The former is more feasible, but probably unacceptable as a matter of statutory draftsmanship. The draft Bill is a worthless political stunt. It has been published by the Conservatives rather than by Her Majesty's Government, and won't be subject to Parliamentary scrutiny as is normally the case for draft legislation.
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?
The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.
Parallels with the Nazis & Jews I'm afraid - easier to sub-humanise a different 'race' if people are so minded. Its a particularly nasty bit of the human psyche that can have awful consequences (Rwanda - Tutsis/Hutus). Obviously this case is very different to genocide but the underlying subhumanisation is there methinks.
I agree. These people are subhumanising young white girls.
It was a question rather than a suggestion that he might not be - I don't know enough about the internal machinations to know how grata a persona Nick would be with those who pay the piper.
On a completely separate subject: Given the controversy about Unite's influence on Labour parliamentary selections, is Nick P of this parish quite such a shoo-in for the Broxtowe candidacy as we've been assuming?
I do hope so ! Got a few pennies on Labour there, and I'd feel safer about my cash with Nick P as the candidate there.
I should have been clearer - I'd happily back his selection at 1/4! The extent of Unite's machinations is being overplayed by some for political reasons. Of course they'll seek to maximise the influence they get for the millions they give to Labour but that doesnt extend to sabotaging Labour's chances of an overall majority (because they would be completely counterproductive).
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?
The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.
Parallels with the Nazis & Jews I'm afraid - easier to sub-humanise a different 'race' if people are so minded. Its a particularly nasty bit of the human psyche that can have awful consequences (Rwanda - Tutsis/Hutus). Obviously this case is very different to genocide but the underlying subhumanisation is there methinks.
I agree. These people are subhumanising young white girls.
I fear that has become undeniable. And the reason they are able to do that (one suspects) is that they think our children are brought up without morals or discipline or the sort of restrictions that they would apply to their own female children. And the reason they think this is because these people are not integrated into our society nor do they have any respect for its own principles including gender equality. They have brought the society of rural Pakistan with them and we have, perversely, encouraged it to flourish in the name of multi-culturalism.
@BethRigby: Apparently Dennis Skinner has signed Baron's motion, breaking a 40-year record of never signing any. Somewhere between 10-15 Lab supporters
I think one really does have to conclude that anyone who thinks a draft referendum with a simple question asking if we should stay in the EU is some kind of bluff or con is a no-holds-barred, A1, frothing, conspiracy-loon fruitcake.
What legislative change would the Euro-headbangers want immediately mandated in the unlikely event of a "out" vote?
How about a mandatory duty on the Secretary of State to notify the European Council, under article 50(2) of TEU, of the United Kingdom's intention to withdraw from the European Union, and the repeal of the European Communities Act 1972 within two years of the date of notification? The problem with such an approach would be the conferral of powers on the government to modify an inordinate volume of primary and secondary legislation by Order in Council.
Life imprisonment (also known as a life sentence, lifelong incarceration or life incarceration) is any sentence of imprisonment for a serious crime under which the convicted person is to remain in jail for the rest of his or her life or until paroled. Examples of crimes for which a person could receive this sentence include murder, severe child abuse, rape, high treason, drug dealing or human trafficking, or aggravated cases of burglary or robbery resulting in death or grievous bodily harm.
So I hope these animals are sentenced to life imprisonment for each offence to run in series.
@BethRigby: Apparently Dennis Skinner has signed Baron's motion, breaking a 40-year record of never signing any. Somewhere between 10-15 Lab supporters
There are signs that that real Labour is awakening from its 15 year pharmaceutical coma.
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
You dont think the pictures or the names provide any clue about the race of the perpetrators to the casual reader?
The race of the perpetrators, as a fact on its own, is neither here nor there. Their race, given they were not white and every victim was, is clearly pertinent and newsworthy.
Parallels with the Nazis & Jews I'm afraid - easier to sub-humanise a different 'race' if people are so minded. Its a particularly nasty bit of the human psyche that can have awful consequences (Rwanda - Tutsis/Hutus). Obviously this case is very different to genocide but the underlying subhumanisation is there methinks.
I agree. These people are subhumanising young white girls.
I fear that has become undeniable. And the reason they are able to do that (one suspects) is that they think our children are brought up without morals or discipline or the sort of restrictions that they would apply to their own female children. And the reason they think this is because these people are not integrated into our society nor do they have any respect for its own principles including gender equality. They have brought the society of rural Pakistan with them and we have, perversely, encouraged it to flourish in the name of multi-culturalism.
At least two of them were Eritreans. Presumably the children of refugees who sought sanctuary here during one or other of the wars in the Horn of Africa.
The Conservative Party's precedent for their draft Bill is the Referendums (Scotland and Wales) Act 1997. I don't think anyone* would argue that that Act was a con. *Barring the usual Caledonian suspects.
This time it'll be different. Surely with all the major issues the country faces during their latest turn in Government, they wouldn't go headbanging, stark raving insane and tear themselves apart over Europe THIS time. Would they? WOULD THEY?
Yes but if they are eligible for parole for the first offence, then the second kicks off until they die in jail.
Sentencing doesn't work like that. If the judge decides that a discretionary life term is appropriate, then a single minimum term to reflect the overall gravity of the offending is chosen. The Court of Appeal has pretty much ruled out whole life orders in cases other than murder (R v Oakes & others[2012] EWCA Crim 2435, at [102]).
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
I couldn't agree more. In addition, the various religious leaders of these enclaves are relaxed about allowing these abuses to continue as long as 'their' female children are not targeted.
More evidence, if it were needed, that Michael Green is a compulsive liar.
"Conservative chairman Grant Shapps told BBC Radio 4's The World at One that the draft bill had been in preparation for several months and the timing of its publication had nothing to do with Wednesday's vote."
More evidence, if it were needed, that Michael Green is a compulsive liar.
"Conservative chairman Grant Shapps told BBC Radio 4's The World at One that the draft bill had been in preparation for several months and the timing of its publication had nothing to do with Wednesday's vote - in which MPs were "entitled" to express their views."
You can tell its a rush job by looking at draft clauses 2 & 4-6. A clause is only divided into subclauses when there are more than one. That is not an error which the parliamentary draftsman would have made, and it is so basic an error that it would have been corrected if this had indeed been in preparation for months. Good old Shapps-Green.
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
There are many depressingly familiar aspects to this story, on top of the ethnic ones: kids from a care home, many attempts to alert the authorities, all ignored. It's a story heard time and time again in this country in abuse cases where the accused come from every kind of background. It is utterly shameful.
In addition, the various religious leaders of these enclaves are relaxed about allowing these abuses to continue as long as 'their' female children are not targeted.
Not they're not. Not according to Muslim leaders in Telford anyway!
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is— “Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union?”*
* Unless LD/Lab win the election
LOL, almost exactly the wording they wailed and gnashed their teeth about on the Scottish referendum. Changed agree to think , you could not make these shysters up.
There are many depressingly familiar aspects to this story, on top of the ethnic ones: kids from a care home, many attempts to alert the authorities, all ignored. It's a story heard time and time again in this country in abuse cases where the accused come from every kind of background. It is utterly shameful.
It's also another sex abuse case in which it was felt that the defendants couldn't get a fair trial in the locality. The Rochdale & Oldham cases were tried at Liverpool, the Oxford case at the Bailey. That is interesting in and of itself.
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
There are many depressingly familiar aspects to this story, on top of the ethnic ones: kids from a care home, many attempts to alert the authorities, all ignored. It's a story heard time and time again in this country in abuse cases where the accused come from every kind of background. It is utterly shameful.
Completely agree with that SO. And Tim's point about those in care in Wales who seem to have been abused is another example. The complete failure of our welfare state to protect our vulnerable children is a national disgrace. No doubt we will have another public inquiry which can come up with original suggestions like "listen to the children".
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
Have you posted much about the 84 abusers in the North Wales children's homes cases, or have I missed that? Very rural round there.
Thats the equivalent of saying why wasnt there as much fuss about any other stabbing in early 90s South London as the Steven Lawrence case
The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is— “Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union?”*
* Unless LD/Lab win the election
LOL, almost exactly the wording they wailed and gnashed their teeth about on the Scottish referendum. Changed agree to think , you could not make these shysters up.
Agree to think is an important change. Agree frames it as an existing positive view of "yes" that the voter is asked if they go along with.
I think Cameron has it right now. The Tories are the only major party prepared to discuss the EU. Labour and the Lib Dems are just euro subservients happy to cede anything and everything just to be fwiends with Europe. Of course Labour, the Lib Dems and the BBC politicos (robinson, Lansdale etc etc etc) will put out the tired old lines about naval gazing and split parties etc but it will just continue to prove that they are vested in staying in the EU.
As for UKIP well the only realistic chance of an in/out EU referendum is the Tories and Cameron has pretty much backed himself into the position where he has no way of back tracking so if Farage is wise near to the election he should advise his supporters to back Tory candidates where there is no way for a UKIP victory.
In fairness to the Beeb....the R4 news leads with the Oxford convictions, then mentions that 'all the men were of Pakistani or North African origin...'
The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is— “Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union?”*
* Unless LD/Lab win the election
LOL, almost exactly the wording they wailed and gnashed their teeth about on the Scottish referendum. Changed agree to think , you could not make these shysters up.
One teeny, tiny difference.....the Scottish question is not 'should Scotland remain part of the United Kingdom'.....
An equivalent question for the BOOers would be 'Should the UK leave the European Union'.....
More evidence, if it were needed, that Michael Green is a compulsive liar.
"Conservative chairman Grant Shapps told BBC Radio 4's The World at One that the draft bill had been in preparation for several months and the timing of its publication had nothing to do with Wednesday's vote."
More evidence, if it were needed, that Michael Green is a compulsive liar.
"Conservative chairman Grant Shapps told BBC Radio 4's The World at One that the draft bill had been in preparation for several months and the timing of its publication had nothing to do with Wednesday's vote."
It took them 'months' to prepare some 11 lines or so of 'original' text and cut and paste three sets of standard clauses. They are even more incompetent and unproductive than I thought. You could c obble that together in an hour.
The behaviour of Tory Euro-headbangers, and Cameron's pathetic handling of it, is nothing to do with UKIP's surge.
Disagree completely. Cameron has been cheerfully ignoring his head bangers for 2 and a half years in favour of his lib dem chums. UKIP has inflamed the right and will see him fall from power unless he does something.
The 1990s tory rebels were much, much more selfish than this lot.
They had no UKIP on their heels, the EU was a much looser agglomeration than it is now and we had no idea how the euro would pan out.
Plus it was much easier for Major to fight them because there was an army of big beast tory euro-philes.
Now you could get the tory europhiles into a SMART car.
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
Have you posted much about the 84 abusers in the North Wales children's homes cases, or have I missed that? Very rural round there.
84 suspected abusers. I know you're a tribal Labour supporter, and therefore these things need explaining to you in very simple terms, but they have not been convicted.
Don't let a minor thing like the law get in the way of your hatred.
In the 1990s UKIP was but a glint in Nigel Farage's eye.
Now they are in double digits and coming up on the rails
You assume that it is still purely about the EU. That may have been the initial point of contention (although Thatcher's defenestration I think was of more significance) but its not about that anymore. I think the whole Cameron saga from 2006 onwards has changed the narrative. Now its increasingly about the future of right of centre politics in this country and what form it will take and the credibility of the Conservative Party as a political party both of the right and in general. The issue that started it all in itself is now becoming irrelevent.
Savile wasn't convicted. Yet the PB tories dribbled and rooled over that case for weeks, because it involved the BBC. OK they slowed down when it became clear he was given the keys to Broadmoor by a Tory govt and was a close friend of a Tory PM.
But did I see you objecting because he hadn't been convicted?
No I didn't, because you are a hypocrite
It'd be quite hard to get a conviction on Saville given the circumstances. Or various other people who are now dead. We can only say that, in lieu of a court case, they are probably guilty of some heinous crimes.
I probably didn't comment at the time, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because discussion on here was banned.
I have probably more reason than most on here not to want to stir any anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant feeling or resentment. Yet I can see that there is some commonality in the recent gang grooming cases that may need investigating, and the causes addressing.
You do not. You would rather brush it under the carpet because it suits your political ends.
I care about the poor kids involved, and want to understand the reasons, to try and prevent it happening again (and that also includes other cases).
You just want your political party to win, whatever the cost.
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
Have you posted much about the 84 abusers in the North Wales children's homes cases, or have I missed that? Very rural round there.
Thats the equivalent of saying why wasnt there as much fuss about any other stabbing in early 90s South London as the Steven Lawrence case
Is it? If you see the defining issue of child abuse as race rather than child abuse not being investigated and victims not being listened too then I guess it is and and Oxford case is thah. In which case you'll be keen to answer why the N.Wales cases were not investigated properly and the victims ignored.Was it because the perpetrators were white, or was it because the victims were children in care who weren't listened to?
I dont define child abuse in any way I never think about it. I beg your padon for not being au fait with every case of child abuse in the UK
What makes people more outraged about the Steven Lawrence case and the Oxford padeophiles is they were motivated by racial hatred. It makes them newsworthy and more people discuss them
But I realise you would rather eat your feet than say anything negative about an ethnic minority
Why not say nothing or even condemn what these paedophiles did rather than accuse anybody outraged by it of racism?
"In Oxford, an imam who knew some of the grooming gang as they were growing up, has talked of the responsibilities of the wider community. "I can say it's a problem of the whole Muslim community and we have to rectify it," said Sheikh Hojjat Ramzy.
"I say to them, my brothers, my sisters, wake up. You are in England. You are British. You must integrate. You must look after the children. There is an issue and we cannot put it under the carpet. Enough is enough."
Does anyone know what Dave is actually doing in the US?
"Once I met a black man..."
Obama needs to watch out or he'll be the next Shaun Bailey.
"I am not Cameron's black man, and he is aware of that, and to his credit and to the party's credit they have never asked me to be their black man, and I won't do it."
Savile wasn't convicted. Yet the PB tories dribbled and rooled over that case for weeks, because it involved the BBC. OK they slowed down when it became clear he was given the keys to Broadmoor by a Tory govt and was a close friend of a Tory PM.
But did I see you objecting because he hadn't been convicted?
No I didn't, because you are a hypocrite
It'd be quite hard to get a conviction on Saville given the circumstances. Or various other people who are now dead. We can only say that, in lieu of a court case, they are probably guilty of some heinous crimes.
I probably didn't comment at the time, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because discussion on here was banned.
I have probably more reason than most on here not to want to stir any anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant feeling or resentment. Yet I can see that there is some commonality in the recent gang grooming cases that may need investigating, and the causes addressing.
You do not. You would rather brush it under the carpet because it suits your political ends.
I care about the poor kids involved, and want to understand the reasons, to try and prevent it happening again (and that also includes other cases).
You just want your political party to win, whatever the cost.
Like Stafford. Like these cases.
And a little more:
One commonality in many of these cases, whether committed by ethnic minorities or luvvies, are children homes and the care systems. That is one aspect that needs addressing as a matter of urgency. Quite how it is addressed is another matter.
But the biggest problem is a matter of respect. Too many children in this country - both girls and boys - are being raised to have no respect for themselves. They need to know that they have an intellect, they are precious, and they could be the next Einstein or Hurst. They can say no.
They need to love themselves, not look for love from others.
Does anyone know what Dave is actually doing in the US?
Part of his tour of world leaders in advance of the G8 in Northern Ireland. Presumably focusing on getting agreement / making progress on Syria, tax avoidance and an EU / US trade deal.
Savile wasn't convicted. Yet the PB tories dribbled and drooled over that case for weeks, because it involved the BBC. OK they slowed down when it became clear he was given the keys to Broadmoor by a Tory govt and was a close friend of a Tory PM.
But did I see you objecting because he hadn't been convicted?
No I didn't, because you are a hypocrite
And another counterpoint to your post:
I talked about the Australian church rape cases on here in the last year, including listing them.
Comments
The tory party is once again contriving to give you a target rich environment. I think you are trying too hard.
Whilst I brilliantly predicted the rather obvious line this would add to the Caledonian referendum I forgot to take it to its logical conclusion.
Salmond would propose to leave the UK, join the EU and use sterling as his currency? So he'd have monetary policy set in London and fiscal constraints (fiscal compact, remember?) provided by Brussels?
And that's without UK limitations on spending/borrowing if he wants a lender of last resort.
Edited extra bit: changed eurozone to EU.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22438623
Would this be the case if the victims had been Asian and the perpetrators white?
when he's not busy headbutting people, Joyce can still make some decent thoughts.
Bristol South shortlist is: Amanda Ramsay (supported by Unions & Co-Op. She campaigns with the "Local Choice with a National Voice" slogan), Karin Smyth (used to work for former Bristol West Labour MP), Barbara Brown (Equality Officer at the Fire Brigade..because yes, they have their equality officer). In terms of nominations, it is a quite open race.
The swing vote is Cameron's. Roger overstates the influence that the advocacy of Shirley Williams, for example, will have (indeed, it's notable how many on his list were 20th century politicians with some who were active in the 1975 referendum), but the overall picture is not a million miles off. If all three party leaders are on the same side, chances are the vote will go with them; if any one goes with Out, that boosts its credibility immensely. As Miliband and Clegg are pro-EU no matter what, that leaves Cameron. Would he advocate a No? In order to negotiate credibly, both with the EU and within his own party, I can't see that he can avoid saying that he's open to the option.
I mean if you're suggesting the BBC are trying to hide the race of the perpetrators, the photos at the top of the article are a bit of a give-away.
If Scotland were in the EU and rUK not the cross border trading implications would be truly horrendous.
@Tim So 58% want a referendum and 38% in Scotland don't. In February, before the UKIP surge. A bit closer than England I suppose but not exactly a winner for Salmond is it? Probably not far off the outcome of the referendum actually.
Do they mention the race of those that are unnecessarily stopped and searched in South London?
Yes
Do they mention the race of these rapists?
Con 9,600 LD 8,300 Lab 4,700 UKIP 4,000 Green 2,000
There is one division split with another parliamentary constituency so there is a small amount of assumption made but it will not change the general picture .
Referendum must be held before 31 December 2017*
The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is— “Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union?”*
* Unless LD/Lab win the election
" Donaldson gave great praise to Germany saying that England would be completely crushed by the early spring; the Government would leave the country and that England's position would be absolutely hopeless, as poverty and famine would be their only reward for declaring war on Germany. Scotland on the other hand had great possibilities. We must, he declared, be able to show the German Government that we are organised and that we have a clear cut policy for the betterment of Scotland; that we have tried our best to persuade the English Government that we want Scottish Independence and that we are not in with them in this war. If we can do that you can be sure that Germany will give us every possible assistance in our early struggle. "
http://www.lefigaro.fr/argent/2013/05/14/05010-20130514ARTFIG00472-bruxelles-envisage-de-supprimer-les-centimes-d-euros.php
Except he is wrong on both counts
A vote for Separation is a vote to try and renegotiate entry back in the EU on fantastically favourable terms
A vote for the Union is a vote for renegotiation from within and a further vote on the outcome of the negotiations
Numpty
Should the United Kingdom be an independent country?
In terms of newsworthiness, the specific race of perpetrators and victims is not, to me, the issue here. The racial motivation or (worse) cultural justification for these heinous acts most certainly is.
I think I must have missed the question when Scots were asked, "If rUK left the EU would you be in favour of an independent Scotland remaining in the EU?"
Only a lunatic could answer "yes" to that. Scotland's economy is far, far more integrated with rUK than the EU and it will be for a very long time. Imagine the VAT documentation, the tariffs, the livestock restrictions, it really goes on and on.
This is a silly line for Salmond to take.
Conservatives publish EU referendum bill
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22518403
So when is a referendum bill not a referendum bill: when you cannot vote yay or nay.
http://order-order.com/2013/05/14/tory-draft-eu-bill-does-not-mandate-any-change/
The big bluff from Cammo exposed. I'm loving Guido.
A bit like all the Uk parties refused to have a female leader until the Conservatives did.
Which is why you enjoy football.
(Waits for the howls...)
Actually, Formula One (and motorsport in general) appeals to the more intelligent. It is about not just physical fitness and tactics, but also intelligence.
None of the F1 drivers are in any way thick; they are all fairly intelligent. They have to be too understand everything that is going on around them, in a technical sense.
Whereas many (most?) football players are pig-thick.
Wendy was very quickly given the hairdryer by Gordon Brown after the 'Bring it on' fiasco.
So why are they bitching about the details?
A change of narrative, methinks...
"Labour people are confirming today that their MPs will be whipped to oppose a referendum vote on the Queen's Speech tomorrow, and that the party will then oppose any move to pass the legislation as a private members' bill."
The normal framework for interacting with people is simply not applied. Empathy: nope. Sympathy: nope. Morality: irrelevant.
It was a question rather than a suggestion that he might not be - I don't know enough about the internal machinations to know how grata a persona Nick would be with those who pay the piper.
I should have been clearer - I'd happily back his selection at 1/4! The extent of Unite's machinations is being overplayed by some for political reasons. Of course they'll seek to maximise the influence they get for the millions they give to Labour but that doesnt extend to sabotaging Labour's chances of an overall majority (because they would be completely counterproductive).
@BethRigby: Apparently Dennis Skinner has signed Baron's motion, breaking a 40-year record of never signing any. Somewhere between 10-15 Lab supporters
Life imprisonment (also known as a life sentence, lifelong incarceration or life incarceration) is any sentence of imprisonment for a serious crime under which the convicted person is to remain in jail for the rest of his or her life or until paroled. Examples of crimes for which a person could receive this sentence include murder, severe child abuse, rape, high treason, drug dealing or human trafficking, or aggravated cases of burglary or robbery resulting in death or grievous bodily harm.
So I hope these animals are sentenced to life imprisonment for each offence to run in series.
"but that doesnt extend to sabotaging Labour's chances of an overall majority (because they would be completely counterproductive)."
So not like the euro headbangers then?
You might say that, I couldnt possibly comment.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/labour-divisions-over-eu-emerge-mps-launch-pro-referendum-group
*Barring the usual Caledonian suspects.
This time it'll be different. Surely with all the major issues the country faces during their latest turn in Government, they wouldn't go headbanging, stark raving insane and tear themselves apart over Europe THIS time. Would they? WOULD THEY?
Oh.
I mentioned rural Pakistan as that has been by far the largest source of this kind of group offence but it is true that there are other rural, medieval, cultures in Islam and we have encouraged them too.
I really don't have a problem with immigration per se but the insanity of positively encouraging cultural societies that are inimical to our own beliefs and values has come home to roost with a vengence. The implications for race relations in this country are going to be severe.
"Conservative chairman Grant Shapps told BBC Radio 4's The World at One that the draft bill had been in preparation for several months and the timing of its publication had nothing to do with Wednesday's vote."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22518403
Does Cameron have a choice?
In the 1990s UKIP was but a glint in Nigel Farage's eye.
Now they are in double digits and coming up on the rails
"Morris Dancer uses a braille computer,"
Apparently it's possible to get a braille version of 'Playboy'
(It's all this talk of reconstructing breasts)
If it is, they're even more stupid than anyone thought.
Are you a young Muslim in Britain? Do you think people hold misconceptions about you? #4thought http://bit.ly/18FJfhN
7.55pm CH4 every night this week
As for UKIP well the only realistic chance of an in/out EU referendum is the Tories and Cameron has pretty much backed himself into the position where he has no way of back tracking so if Farage is wise near to the election he should advise his supporters to back Tory candidates where there is no way for a UKIP victory.
An equivalent question for the BOOers would be 'Should the UK leave the European Union'.....
Disagree completely. Cameron has been cheerfully ignoring his head bangers for 2 and a half years in favour of his lib dem chums. UKIP has inflamed the right and will see him fall from power unless he does something.
The 1990s tory rebels were much, much more selfish than this lot.
They had no UKIP on their heels, the EU was a much looser agglomeration than it is now and we had no idea how the euro would pan out.
Plus it was much easier for Major to fight them because there was an army of big beast tory euro-philes.
Now you could get the tory europhiles into a SMART car.
Don't let a minor thing like the law get in the way of your hatred.
The Tory Euro-headbangers are using the UKIP surge as an opportunity.
Any poll watcher would surely realise that banging on about Europe will not head off the UKIP threat to the Tories, for many reasons.
It was up to David Cameron to show leadership on this. He's failed. As usual.
I probably didn't comment at the time, not because I'm a hypocrite, but because discussion on here was banned.
I have probably more reason than most on here not to want to stir any anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant feeling or resentment. Yet I can see that there is some commonality in the recent gang grooming cases that may need investigating, and the causes addressing.
You do not. You would rather brush it under the carpet because it suits your political ends.
I care about the poor kids involved, and want to understand the reasons, to try and prevent it happening again (and that also includes other cases).
You just want your political party to win, whatever the cost.
Like Stafford.
Like these cases.
I dont define child abuse in any way I never think about it. I beg your padon for not being au fait with every case of child abuse in the UK
What makes people more outraged about the Steven Lawrence case and the Oxford padeophiles is they were motivated by racial hatred. It makes them newsworthy and more people discuss them
But I realise you would rather eat your feet than say anything negative about an ethnic minority
Why not say nothing or even condemn what these paedophiles did rather than accuse anybody outraged by it of racism?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLlrfEYtqFU
"In Oxford, an imam who knew some of the grooming gang as they were growing up, has talked of the responsibilities of the wider community. "I can say it's a problem of the whole Muslim community and we have to rectify it," said Sheikh Hojjat Ramzy.
"I say to them, my brothers, my sisters, wake up. You are in England. You are British. You must integrate. You must look after the children. There is an issue and we cannot put it under the carpet. Enough is enough."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22522232
I really couldn't put it better myself.
Obama needs to watch out or he'll be the next Shaun Bailey.
"I am not Cameron's black man, and he is aware of that, and to his credit and to the party's credit they have never asked me to be their black man, and I won't do it."
Read more: http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/-I-m-not-Cameron-s-black-man-_13670041#ixzz2THxfch5N
One commonality in many of these cases, whether committed by ethnic minorities or luvvies, are children homes and the care systems. That is one aspect that needs addressing as a matter of urgency. Quite how it is addressed is another matter.
But the biggest problem is a matter of respect. Too many children in this country - both girls and boys - are being raised to have no respect for themselves. They need to know that they have an intellect, they are precious, and they could be the next Einstein or Hurst. They can say no.
They need to love themselves, not look for love from others.
I talked about the Australian church rape cases on here in the last year, including listing them.
But you sort of ignored that, didn't you?