Massive spikes in immigration. Feels like Boris overshot with liberalizing work visas. I am fine with a bunch of lower paid NHS and social care workers coming, but seems like we have lowered the salary level too much outside this:
Meanwhile according to the woke, eg @kinabalu, Britain is "not pulling its weight with migrants"
We have huge amounts of net inward migration and a highly liberal points system. But it is never enough. Never
If you drill into the detail, you’ll see that while immigration has gone up significantly, the approach to asylum seekers is to basically fuck off.
Clearly Patel (and or Johnson) have decided that this is what voters want.
I think they have almost got the voters views right, but the occupation list for "skilled" immigration seems off. Are shopkeepers really a shortage profession that can not be filled by UK workers trained up? Administrative workers at universities? Day nursery managers? Youth workers? Copywriters?
It feels like every business lobby group has got their job on the "shortage" list. Combined with the low salary level (26k), you can see why immigration has spiked.
A few more jobs on the shortage list to be a skilled worker:
Aerobics instructor Personal trainer Exporter-importer Accounting clerk Buyer Sales agent Park ranger NVQ assessor Health and safety officer Transport clerk Business support manager Secretary Herd manager Gardener Groundsman Sheet metal worker Pipe fitter Welder Metal bench fitter Air conditioning fitter Car mechanic Vehicle assembler Electrician Bricklayer Carpentry joiner Builder Fencer Carpet fitter Knitter Weaver Shoe repairer Hand sewer Wallpaper printer Baker Baker assistant Bar manager Pottery worker Flower arranger Florist Creche worker Air hostess Window dresser Sales team leader Telephone researcher
They are clearly taking the piss with this "skilled worker" branding.
Of course. The government repeatedly lie and tell people what they want to hear, especially on subjects of immigration because the realities and perceptions don't match.
This has actually really annoyed me now I have seen the detail. Why the hell are phone researchers and gardeners getting skilled worker visas??
Because we don't have enough workers and the ratio of workers/rich pensioners is out of whack. That will be the case whether we are in or out of the EU, or have a Tory or even UKIP govt. Tory and Brexit voters were lied to by Tories and Leave politicians.
Please blame them for lying, rather than the system, the metropolitan elite or the migrants.
This is just the same old bullshit that has been debunked a hundred times.
The level of immigration you would need to meaningfully alter the elderly dependency ratio is staggering. You would have to multiply immigration by about 10x and cause massive integration issues.
As for "enough workers", we have plenty of workers for unskilled jobs like florists and telesales. The problem is the pay and conditions in those jobs are shit.
As always, you "let them all in" types don't actually address the issue of why we need to import shopkeepers as skilled workers, so instead you do this sneering patronization.
It is not me doing me it, I am not in charge, nor are those I voted for. It is Tory leave politicians doing it. Moan to them about it, not us.
Ok, I will remember to call you out if you criticize politicians on a political forum.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Government spending per head on transport in London - £877.76
Spending in the North East* - £314.11
And you could say much the same for all the other forms of infrastructure. Housing. Telecoms.
Even allowing for the difference in the cost of living, it is not 'treated the same as other, more prosperous areas' and it shows.
It's not the only problem but it is a big problem.
*Not being stupid I am aware Stoke isn't in the North East.
The cost of buying & demolishing property is higher in Camden than in the North East though which will affect the costs for the same output
The spending showed a similar discrepancy years back before Crossrail and HS2.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
I don't know. Perhaps. There's something that happens to regons which isn't about state funding, isn't about transport, and probably isn't about eductation.
All but one of the BOTTOM 10 for which we have figures has lower taxes than the UK.
So what, they are not developed nations so that is not comparing like with like. Of developed nations like the UK those with the lowest taxes generally have higher gdp per capita than those with the highest taxes
So you want to prove that wealth is inversely correlated to tax rates, and to do that you want to exclude low-wealth countries.
Does... does anyone else see the problem here?
When did I ever say that?
It is correlated with average IQ of the nation and lower tax rates.
Developed nations all have average IQs above the global average, hence it is tax rates that largely determines average gdp per capita for them
Aaand we're back to the thickie-Africans "discussion". Fucking wonderful.
Average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115. Fully one standard deviation above the “human average”
Meanwhile American Jews are at least twice as rich, on average, as non Jewish Americans
“Much of the Jewish American community lead middle class lifestyles.[130] While the median household net worth of the typical American family is $99,500, among American Jews the figure is $443,000.[131][132] In addition, the median Jewish American income is estimated to be in the range of $97,000 to $98,000, nearly twice as high the American national median.”
Forget Africa, are you honestly claiming there is no link between these two facts?
Indeed, Jews have the highest average verbal IQ in the world.
East Asians have the highest average numerical IQ in the world.
Those are just facts however much the left deny them
No they aren't. They are highly contentious. You only have to read much of the debate on it because there are so many variables. Many poor countries score around 50. Nepal is 43. Do you really think the average intelligence of these people is actual a score between idiot and moron. Of course they aren't.
Having had to take many of these tests in my career and having had to set them for potential rmployees I explained the methods I could use to up your score by 10 - 20 points. @rcs1000 then came up with a study showing you could train someone to increase there score by 20 points, and this is in well educated countries like the UK and USA.
So even Leon's standard deviation example is nonsense as there are just so many variables. Genetically different people might have different IQs but that could be for all sorts of reasons.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
If the cap fits!
IQ may well be a valuable metric, but it seems that we cannot measure it accurately, and certainly not across cultures and groups. It may have some validity comparing individuals within a group, but it cannot be extrapolated.
It can very measured accurately. It is highly repeatable and can also be reliably used across cultures and groups. It also shows high correlations between different components of IQ, such as reasoning, spatial ability, memory etc, demonstrating that it is measuring something real.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
Yes, you can, to an extent
There are plenty of Stokes across the world - ex-industrial areas. Britain has a lot because we were the first to industrialise, and we did it when it was REALLY messy, and we are a small but densely populated country (and also we lost confidence in our urbanism post 1945, a separate, weird phenomenon)
There are worse Stokes in America - Detroit, say. There are better Stokes in East Germany - where German diligence has preserved some cleanliness and dignity, but the towns are still depopulating and maybe doomed
And pride - self esteem - seems crucial. Once people conclude "this place is a shit-hole, I have to leave" it is hard to reverse this self-fulfilling perception.
Some British cities have done it. The major example is, of course, London. A seedy post-Imperial city in apparently endless decline in 1980 was arguably the capital of the world by 2010. Quite something.
It has lost momentum of late but it still has a swagger, matched by few cities in the world. Someone who came here now who was last here in, say, February 1981 would be utterly astonished
So pride can be restored. This is good. But how do you do it for smaller towns and cities?
Unless you expect 'pride' to motivate people to purchase ladders and tins of Dulux and illegally redecorate the frontages of buildings that are owned by others, then pride alone won't do it. Commercial landlords being taxed for having empty, seedy, run-down high street properties would do it. Tax them until the pips squeak. Tax them until they are forced to sell, or forced to rent, well below their current grossly inflated expectations.
Massive spikes in immigration. Feels like Boris overshot with liberalizing work visas. I am fine with a bunch of lower paid NHS and social care workers coming, but seems like we have lowered the salary level too much outside this:
Meanwhile according to the woke, eg @kinabalu, Britain is "not pulling its weight with migrants"
We have huge amounts of net inward migration and a highly liberal points system. But it is never enough. Never
If you drill into the detail, you’ll see that while immigration has gone up significantly, the approach to asylum seekers is to basically fuck off.
Clearly Patel (and or Johnson) have decided that this is what voters want.
I think they have almost got the voters views right, but the occupation list for "skilled" immigration seems off. Are shopkeepers really a shortage profession that can not be filled by UK workers trained up? Administrative workers at universities? Day nursery managers? Youth workers? Copywriters?
It feels like every business lobby group has got their job on the "shortage" list. Combined with the low salary level (26k), you can see why immigration has spiked.
A few more jobs on the shortage list to be a skilled worker:
Aerobics instructor Personal trainer Exporter-importer Accounting clerk Buyer Sales agent Park ranger NVQ assessor Health and safety officer Transport clerk Business support manager Secretary Herd manager Gardener Groundsman Sheet metal worker Pipe fitter Welder Metal bench fitter Air conditioning fitter Car mechanic Vehicle assembler Electrician Bricklayer Carpentry joiner Builder Fencer Carpet fitter Knitter Weaver Shoe repairer Hand sewer Wallpaper printer Baker Baker assistant Bar manager Pottery worker Flower arranger Florist Creche worker Air hostess Window dresser Sales team leader Telephone researcher
They are clearly taking the piss with this "skilled worker" branding.
Of course. The government repeatedly lie and tell people what they want to hear, especially on subjects of immigration because the realities and perceptions don't match.
This has actually really annoyed me now I have seen the detail. Why the hell are phone researchers and gardeners getting skilled worker visas??
Because we don't have enough workers and the ratio of workers/rich pensioners is out of whack. That will be the case whether we are in or out of the EU, or have a Tory or even UKIP govt. Tory and Brexit voters were lied to by Tories and Leave politicians.
Please blame them for lying, rather than the system, the metropolitan elite or the migrants.
This is just the same old bullshit that has been debunked a hundred times.
The level of immigration you would need to meaningfully alter the elderly dependency ratio is staggering. You would have to multiply immigration by about 10x and cause massive integration issues.
As for "enough workers", we have plenty of workers for unskilled jobs like florists and telesales. The problem is the pay and conditions in those jobs are shit.
As always, you "let them all in" types don't actually address the issue of why we need to import shopkeepers as skilled workers, so instead you do this sneering patronization.
Perhaps you could have a go at answering the question in your last paragraph instead of having a shit-fit about it.
Why indeed do we need to import flower-arrangers, which was another skilled profession I saw on the list.
We don't and the government should get criticism for it.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Government spending per head on transport in London - £877.76
Spending in the North East* - £314.11
And you could say much the same for all the other forms of infrastructure. Housing. Telecoms.
Even allowing for the difference in the cost of living, it is not 'treated the same as other, more prosperous areas' and it shows.
It's not the only problem but it is a big problem.
*Not being stupid I am aware Stoke isn't in the North East.
London is rather different though, and particularly for transport spending. Building an underground railway in Stoke would seem to be an unlikely winner. (One day though)
So you concede it's not treated the same way?
I suppose one answer to this would be to simply subsidise public transport outside of London. Instead of spending money on building a northern Crossrail, spend the equivalent on subsidised bus travel, for example.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Government spending per head on transport in London - £877.76
Spending in the North East* - £314.11
And you could say much the same for all the other forms of infrastructure. Housing. Telecoms.
Even allowing for the difference in the cost of living, it is not 'treated the same as other, more prosperous areas' and it shows.
It's not the only problem but it is a big problem.
*Not being stupid I am aware Stoke isn't in the North East.
The cost of buying & demolishing property is higher in Camden than in the North East though which will affect the costs for the same output
The spending showed a similar discrepancy years back before Crossrail and HS2.
All but one of the BOTTOM 10 for which we have figures has lower taxes than the UK.
So what, they are not developed nations so that is not comparing like with like. Of developed nations like the UK those with the lowest taxes generally have higher gdp per capita than those with the highest taxes
So you want to prove that wealth is inversely correlated to tax rates, and to do that you want to exclude low-wealth countries.
Does... does anyone else see the problem here?
When did I ever say that?
It is correlated with average IQ of the nation and lower tax rates.
Developed nations all have average IQs above the global average, hence it is tax rates that largely determines average gdp per capita for them
Aaand we're back to the thickie-Africans "discussion". Fucking wonderful.
Average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115. Fully one standard deviation above the “human average”
Meanwhile American Jews are at least twice as rich, on average, as non Jewish Americans
“Much of the Jewish American community lead middle class lifestyles.[130] While the median household net worth of the typical American family is $99,500, among American Jews the figure is $443,000.[131][132] In addition, the median Jewish American income is estimated to be in the range of $97,000 to $98,000, nearly twice as high the American national median.”
Forget Africa, are you honestly claiming there is no link between these two facts?
Indeed, Jews have the highest average verbal IQ in the world.
East Asians have the highest average numerical IQ in the world.
Those are just facts however much the left deny them
No they aren't. They are highly contentious. You only have to read much of the debate on it because there are so many variables. Many poor countries score around 50. Nepal is 43. Do you really think the average intelligence of these people is actual a score between idiot and moron. Of course they aren't.
Having had to take many of these tests in my career and having had to set them for potential rmployees I explained the methods I could use to up your score by 10 - 20 points. @rcs1000 then came up with a study showing you could train someone to increase their score by 20 points, and this is in well educated countries like the UK and USA.
So even Leon's standard deviation example is nonsense as there are just so many variables. Genetically different people might have different IQs but that could be for all sorts of reasons.
This is just unscientific shite
IQ tests measure something important, which allows people to succeed in a capitalist society, if it upsets you, don't call it "intelligence"
Jews are smarter ON AVERAGE than non-Jews. IQ tests detect that. As do Nobel Prizes:
"At least 210 Jews and people of half- or three-quarters-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize, accounting for 22% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2021,"
Read that again, between a fifth and a quarter of all Nobel Prizes have gone to people of notably Jewish ancestry, yet Jews constitute perhaps 0.2-0.3% of the global population
What is the point in denying this obvious stuff? Honestly, it makes the commenter sound wilfully retarded. I understand why a politician in a public forum may need to steer clear of these contentious issues, but this is a small political betting website. FFS
Massive spikes in immigration. Feels like Boris overshot with liberalizing work visas. I am fine with a bunch of lower paid NHS and social care workers coming, but seems like we have lowered the salary level too much outside this:
Meanwhile according to the woke, eg @kinabalu, Britain is "not pulling its weight with migrants"
We have huge amounts of net inward migration and a highly liberal points system. But it is never enough. Never
If you drill into the detail, you’ll see that while immigration has gone up significantly, the approach to asylum seekers is to basically fuck off.
Clearly Patel (and or Johnson) have decided that this is what voters want.
I think they have almost got the voters views right, but the occupation list for "skilled" immigration seems off. Are shopkeepers really a shortage profession that can not be filled by UK workers trained up? Administrative workers at universities? Day nursery managers? Youth workers? Copywriters?
It feels like every business lobby group has got their job on the "shortage" list. Combined with the low salary level (26k), you can see why immigration has spiked.
A few more jobs on the shortage list to be a skilled worker:
Aerobics instructor Personal trainer Exporter-importer Accounting clerk Buyer Sales agent Park ranger NVQ assessor Health and safety officer Transport clerk Business support manager Secretary Herd manager Gardener Groundsman Sheet metal worker Pipe fitter Welder Metal bench fitter Air conditioning fitter Car mechanic Vehicle assembler Electrician Bricklayer Carpentry joiner Builder Fencer Carpet fitter Knitter Weaver Shoe repairer Hand sewer Wallpaper printer Baker Baker assistant Bar manager Pottery worker Flower arranger Florist Creche worker Air hostess Window dresser Sales team leader Telephone researcher
They are clearly taking the piss with this "skilled worker" branding.
Of course. The government repeatedly lie and tell people what they want to hear, especially on subjects of immigration because the realities and perceptions don't match.
This has actually really annoyed me now I have seen the detail. Why the hell are phone researchers and gardeners getting skilled worker visas??
Because we don't have enough workers and the ratio of workers/rich pensioners is out of whack. That will be the case whether we are in or out of the EU, or have a Tory or even UKIP govt. Tory and Brexit voters were lied to by Tories and Leave politicians.
Please blame them for lying, rather than the system, the metropolitan elite or the migrants.
This is just the same old bullshit that has been debunked a hundred times.
The level of immigration you would need to meaningfully alter the elderly dependency ratio is staggering. You would have to multiply immigration by about 10x and cause massive integration issues.
As for "enough workers", we have plenty of workers for unskilled jobs like florists and telesales. The problem is the pay and conditions in those jobs are shit.
As always, you "let them all in" types don't actually address the issue of why we need to import shopkeepers as skilled workers, so instead you do this sneering patronization.
Perhaps you could have a go at answering the question in your last paragraph instead of having a shit-fit about it.
Why indeed do we need to import flower-arrangers, which was another skilled profession I saw on the list.
We don't and the government should get criticism for it.
And get booted out for it - we are able to sack our Government in a way that we couldn't sack the four freedoms (obviously until we did, yadayadyada).
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
There's a chunk of that, I reckon. Places that were somewhere, that were damn good at what they did, but they lose their purpose. Heck, I grew up in a place a bit like that in a different part of the country. Partly, the money that was coming stops, and that shows. But also, there's the emotional kick, the difficulty of working out what the place is for next. And in some (maybe many) cases, the answer is "not much", or "something a lot less profitable than before".
It needn't last forever, but it's painful while it lasts. And civic pride (alongside investment in infrastructure and retraining) is part of the mix of getting over the gap.
Yes, but the loss of pride follows the economic decline, not so much the other way round.
As Leon goes on to relate, Britain has an awful lot of these places as a result of industrialising early and densely.
I could go on, but I feel I’ve written a lot about this before. The only thing that matters is how to fix it.
Essentially the answers are:
1. Autonomy 2. Infrastructure 3. Skills
The first seems to be anathema to British tradition, and 2 and 3 require money - lots of it and over a long term, too.
It’s possible. East Germany is the leading example. Even there, the places have suffered a lot of depopulation, but at least those that are left are now wealthier than much of the UK.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
I don't know. Perhaps. There's something that happens to regons which isn't about state funding, isn't about transport, and probably isn't about eductation.
See my post. It’s precisely about those things, plus autonomy.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Government spending per head on transport in London - £877.76
Spending in the North East* - £314.11
And you could say much the same for all the other forms of infrastructure. Housing. Telecoms.
Even allowing for the difference in the cost of living, it is not 'treated the same as other, more prosperous areas' and it shows.
It's not the only problem but it is a big problem.
*Not being stupid I am aware Stoke isn't in the North East.
London is rather different though, and particularly for transport spending. Building an underground railway in Stoke would seem to be an unlikely winner. (One day though)
So you concede it's not treated the same way?
Oh yes. Absolutely. London is treated as an entirely different beast to anywhere else in the UK. Mostly the differences are around transport, and the contrast between driving to work or taking public transport is huge. I've no idea what percentage of the UK state revenues come from London, but it'll be a big number. Every other region in the UK benefits.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
Bollocks. (That's my professional opinion having a PhD in psychology and a chair at a Russell Group university.)
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Government spending per head on transport in London - £877.76
Spending in the North East* - £314.11
And you could say much the same for all the other forms of infrastructure. Housing. Telecoms.
Even allowing for the difference in the cost of living, it is not 'treated the same as other, more prosperous areas' and it shows.
It's not the only problem but it is a big problem.
*Not being stupid I am aware Stoke isn't in the North East.
The cost of buying & demolishing property is higher in Camden than in the North East though which will affect the costs for the same output
The spending showed a similar discrepancy years back before Crossrail and HS2.
Any project requiring purchase of land or property (or compensating neighbours) will cost more in London
From my memory, that discrepancy existed a good decade ago - in fact, might well have been worse - before there was anything needing major land purchases.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
Bollocks. (That's my professional opinion having a PhD in psychology and a chair at a Russell Group university.)
Ok, so what statistical measure is MORE reliable amd repeatable than IQ in psychology? And I will laugh at you if you come back with a sub-component of IQ.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
Bollocks. (That's my professional opinion having a PhD in psychology and a chair at a Russell Group university.)
People who think the North just needs to get a bit of swagger (this is essentially also the Treasury’s view) remind me of those Victorians who blamed cholera on a “miasma”.
All but one of the BOTTOM 10 for which we have figures has lower taxes than the UK.
So what, they are not developed nations so that is not comparing like with like. Of developed nations like the UK those with the lowest taxes generally have higher gdp per capita than those with the highest taxes
So you want to prove that wealth is inversely correlated to tax rates, and to do that you want to exclude low-wealth countries.
Does... does anyone else see the problem here?
When did I ever say that?
It is correlated with average IQ of the nation and lower tax rates.
Developed nations all have average IQs above the global average, hence it is tax rates that largely determines average gdp per capita for them
Aaand we're back to the thickie-Africans "discussion". Fucking wonderful.
Average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115. Fully one standard deviation above the “human average”
Meanwhile American Jews are at least twice as rich, on average, as non Jewish Americans
“Much of the Jewish American community lead middle class lifestyles.[130] While the median household net worth of the typical American family is $99,500, among American Jews the figure is $443,000.[131][132] In addition, the median Jewish American income is estimated to be in the range of $97,000 to $98,000, nearly twice as high the American national median.”
Forget Africa, are you honestly claiming there is no link between these two facts?
Indeed, Jews have the highest average verbal IQ in the world.
East Asians have the highest average numerical IQ in the world.
Those are just facts however much the left deny them
No they aren't. They are highly contentious. You only have to read much of the debate on it because there are so many variables. Many poor countries score around 50. Nepal is 43. Do you really think the average intelligence of these people is actual a score between idiot and moron. Of course they aren't.
Having had to take many of these tests in my career and having had to set them for potential rmployees I explained the methods I could use to up your score by 10 - 20 points. @rcs1000 then came up with a study showing you could train someone to increase there score by 20 points, and this is in well educated countries like the UK and USA.
So even Leon's standard deviation example is nonsense as there are just so many variables. Genetically different people might have different IQs but that could be for all sorts of reasons.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
I bloody love your second sentence. When rhetorical questions turn out bad...
Read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould
Psychology says nothing interesting or reproducible or falsifiable. Lovely little science otherwise.
Massive spikes in immigration. Feels like Boris overshot with liberalizing work visas. I am fine with a bunch of lower paid NHS and social care workers coming, but seems like we have lowered the salary level too much outside this:
Meanwhile according to the woke, eg @kinabalu, Britain is "not pulling its weight with migrants"
We have huge amounts of net inward migration and a highly liberal points system. But it is never enough. Never
If you drill into the detail, you’ll see that while immigration has gone up significantly, the approach to asylum seekers is to basically fuck off.
Clearly Patel (and or Johnson) have decided that this is what voters want.
I think they have almost got the voters views right, but the occupation list for "skilled" immigration seems off. Are shopkeepers really a shortage profession that can not be filled by UK workers trained up? Administrative workers at universities? Day nursery managers? Youth workers? Copywriters?
It feels like every business lobby group has got their job on the "shortage" list. Combined with the low salary level (26k), you can see why immigration has spiked.
A few more jobs on the shortage list to be a skilled worker:
Aerobics instructor Personal trainer Exporter-importer Accounting clerk Buyer Sales agent Park ranger NVQ assessor Health and safety officer Transport clerk Business support manager Secretary Herd manager Gardener Groundsman Sheet metal worker Pipe fitter Welder Metal bench fitter Air conditioning fitter Car mechanic Vehicle assembler Electrician Bricklayer Carpentry joiner Builder Fencer Carpet fitter Knitter Weaver Shoe repairer Hand sewer Wallpaper printer Baker Baker assistant Bar manager Pottery worker Flower arranger Florist Creche worker Air hostess Window dresser Sales team leader Telephone researcher
They are clearly taking the piss with this "skilled worker" branding.
Of course. The government repeatedly lie and tell people what they want to hear, especially on subjects of immigration because the realities and perceptions don't match.
This has actually really annoyed me now I have seen the detail. Why the hell are phone researchers and gardeners getting skilled worker visas??
Because we don't have enough workers and the ratio of workers/rich pensioners is out of whack. That will be the case whether we are in or out of the EU, or have a Tory or even UKIP govt. Tory and Brexit voters were lied to by Tories and Leave politicians.
Please blame them for lying, rather than the system, the metropolitan elite or the migrants.
This is just the same old bullshit that has been debunked a hundred times.
The level of immigration you would need to meaningfully alter the elderly dependency ratio is staggering. You would have to multiply immigration by about 10x and cause massive integration issues.
As for "enough workers", we have plenty of workers for unskilled jobs like florists and telesales. The problem is the pay and conditions in those jobs are shit.
As always, you "let them all in" types don't actually address the issue of why we need to import shopkeepers as skilled workers, so instead you do this sneering patronization.
Perhaps you could have a go at answering the question in your last paragraph instead of having a shit-fit about it.
Why indeed do we need to import flower-arrangers, which was another skilled profession I saw on the list.
We don't and the government should get criticism for it.
And get booted out for it - we are able to sack our Government in a way that we couldn't sack the four freedoms (obviously until we did, yadayadyada).
Exactly right. This government promised a skilled points system. But they have developed a system where low skilled jobs allow you to come in as a shopkeeper earning 26k a year. Window dressers as a skilled occupation, FFS!
Russell Warne has spent many hours scrutinising undergraduate psychology textbooks. As a professor of psychology at Utah Valley University, he wasn’t looking for insight, but for mistakes – and he found plenty. Some of the worst concerned IQ tests. “The most common inaccuracy I found, by far, was the claim that intelligence tests are biased against certain groups,” he says. Yet intelligence researchers are at pains to ensure that IQ tests are fair and not culturally biased. “Another, very common one was the idea that intelligence is difficult to measure.”
The truth about intelligence: A guide for the confusedOur thinking on human intellect is clouded with misinformation. But the latest science of intelligence is surprisingly enlightening
No wonder IQ tests are often considered controversial and flaky. But that simply isn’t the case. “Despite the critiques, the intelligence test is one of the most reliable and solid behavioural tests ever invented,” says Rex Jung at the University of New Mexico.
When the historians come to write The Downfall of The West, one of the chapters should be devoted to IQ tests, and how we were persuaded to regard these perfectly valid, hugely useful measurements as somehow bestial and racist by, firstly, a bunch of west-hating Marxists, and, secondly, a bunch of west-hating Marxists fuelled by Chinese and Russian bots, memes, and algorithms
Do the Chinese disregard IQ tests because they sometimes pump out "uncomfortable" data? Of course not
Yet right now American universities - the best in the world (but not for much longer) - are abandoning SATs (based on IQ tests) because they produce "unequal racial outcomes". Thus the canker spreads
"In an effort to eliminate high-stakes exams because of equity concerns, California State University, the country’s largest four-year university system, announced it is eliminating standardized tests for undergraduate admissions."
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
I don't know. Perhaps. There's something that happens to regons which isn't about state funding, isn't about transport, and probably isn't about eductation.
See my post. It’s precisely about those things, plus autonomy.
I really don't see it GW. There's something else. The magic mustard. The more I think about it the more I think it is to do with something like pride.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
Bollocks. (That's my professional opinion having a PhD in psychology and a chair at a Russell Group university.)
Ok, so what statistical measure is MORE reliable amd repeatable than IQ in psychology? And I will laugh at you if you come back with a sub-component of IQ.
Quite. And what part of Hippocratic medicine is more gold standard then the theory of the four humours?
All but one of the BOTTOM 10 for which we have figures has lower taxes than the UK.
So what, they are not developed nations so that is not comparing like with like. Of developed nations like the UK those with the lowest taxes generally have higher gdp per capita than those with the highest taxes
So you want to prove that wealth is inversely correlated to tax rates, and to do that you want to exclude low-wealth countries.
Does... does anyone else see the problem here?
When did I ever say that?
It is correlated with average IQ of the nation and lower tax rates.
Developed nations all have average IQs above the global average, hence it is tax rates that largely determines average gdp per capita for them
Aaand we're back to the thickie-Africans "discussion". Fucking wonderful.
Average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115. Fully one standard deviation above the “human average”
Meanwhile American Jews are at least twice as rich, on average, as non Jewish Americans
“Much of the Jewish American community lead middle class lifestyles.[130] While the median household net worth of the typical American family is $99,500, among American Jews the figure is $443,000.[131][132] In addition, the median Jewish American income is estimated to be in the range of $97,000 to $98,000, nearly twice as high the American national median.”
Forget Africa, are you honestly claiming there is no link between these two facts?
Indeed, Jews have the highest average verbal IQ in the world.
East Asians have the highest average numerical IQ in the world.
Those are just facts however much the left deny them
No they aren't. They are highly contentious. You only have to read much of the debate on it because there are so many variables. Many poor countries score around 50. Nepal is 43. Do you really think the average intelligence of these people is actual a score between idiot and moron. Of course they aren't.
Having had to take many of these tests in my career and having had to set them for potential rmployees I explained the methods I could use to up your score by 10 - 20 points. @rcs1000 then came up with a study showing you could train someone to increase there score by 20 points, and this is in well educated countries like the UK and USA.
So even Leon's standard deviation example is nonsense as there are just so many variables. Genetically different people might have different IQs but that could be for all sorts of reasons.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
I bloody love your second sentence. When rhetorical questions turn out bad...
Read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould
Psychology says nothing interesting or reproducible or falsifiable. Lovely little science otherwise.
So presumably the entire taxpayer support for therapy can be eliminated, in your opinion?
All but one of the BOTTOM 10 for which we have figures has lower taxes than the UK.
So what, they are not developed nations so that is not comparing like with like. Of developed nations like the UK those with the lowest taxes generally have higher gdp per capita than those with the highest taxes
So you want to prove that wealth is inversely correlated to tax rates, and to do that you want to exclude low-wealth countries.
Does... does anyone else see the problem here?
When did I ever say that?
It is correlated with average IQ of the nation and lower tax rates.
Developed nations all have average IQs above the global average, hence it is tax rates that largely determines average gdp per capita for them
Aaand we're back to the thickie-Africans "discussion". Fucking wonderful.
Average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115. Fully one standard deviation above the “human average”
Meanwhile American Jews are at least twice as rich, on average, as non Jewish Americans
“Much of the Jewish American community lead middle class lifestyles.[130] While the median household net worth of the typical American family is $99,500, among American Jews the figure is $443,000.[131][132] In addition, the median Jewish American income is estimated to be in the range of $97,000 to $98,000, nearly twice as high the American national median.”
Forget Africa, are you honestly claiming there is no link between these two facts?
Indeed, Jews have the highest average verbal IQ in the world.
East Asians have the highest average numerical IQ in the world.
Those are just facts however much the left deny them
No they aren't. They are highly contentious. You only have to read much of the debate on it because there are so many variables. Many poor countries score around 50. Nepal is 43. Do you really think the average intelligence of these people is actual a score between idiot and moron. Of course they aren't.
Having had to take many of these tests in my career and having had to set them for potential rmployees I explained the methods I could use to up your score by 10 - 20 points. @rcs1000 then came up with a study showing you could train someone to increase there score by 20 points, and this is in well educated countries like the UK and USA.
So even Leon's standard deviation example is nonsense as there are just so many variables. Genetically different people might have different IQs but that could be for all sorts of reasons.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
I bloody love your second sentence. When rhetorical questions turn out bad...
Read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould
Psychology says nothing interesting or reproducible or falsifiable. Lovely little science otherwise.
Gould was an unrepentant Marxist. That entire book is Marxist crap
"Stephen Jay Gould: Intuitive Marxist and Biologist of Freedom
Of course, it's not easy to assess all transport spending on a regional basis. I'd argue all of the HS2 spend in London should be considered spending for the Midlands and the North.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
Yes, you can, to an extent
There are plenty of Stokes across the world - ex-industrial areas. Britain has a lot because we were the first to industrialise, and we did it when it was REALLY messy, and we are a small but densely populated country (and also we lost confidence in our urbanism post 1945, a separate, weird phenomenon)
There are worse Stokes in America - Detroit, say. There are better Stokes in East Germany - where German diligence has preserved some cleanliness and dignity, but the towns are still depopulating and maybe doomed
And pride - self esteem - seems crucial. Once people conclude "this place is a shit-hole, I have to leave" it is hard to reverse this self-fulfilling perception.
Some British cities have done it. The major example is, of course, London. A seedy post-Imperial city in apparently endless decline in 1980 was arguably the capital of the world by 2010. Quite something.
It has lost momentum of late but it still has a swagger, matched by few cities in the world. Someone who came here now who was last here in, say, February 1981 would be utterly astonished
So pride can be restored. This is good. But how do you do it for smaller towns and cities?
Unless you expect 'pride' to motivate people to purchase ladders and tins of Dulux and illegally redecorate the frontages of buildings that are owned by others, then pride alone won't do it. Commercial landlords being taxed for having empty, seedy, run-down high street properties would do it. Tax them until the pips squeak. Tax them until they are forced to sell, or forced to rent, well below their current grossly inflated expectations.
Buying a tin of Dulux is exactly the sort of thing that seems unimportant, but represents so much more. I admit though I've had to back to using milk in my custard.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
Bollocks. (That's my professional opinion having a PhD in psychology and a chair at a Russell Group university.)
Ok, so what statistical measure is MORE reliable amd repeatable than IQ in psychology? And I will laugh at you if you come back with a sub-component of IQ.
Quite. And what part of Hippocratic medicine is more gold standard then the theory of the four humours?
Are measures of the four humors repeatable with rates higher than 85%?
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
I don't know. Perhaps. There's something that happens to regons which isn't about state funding, isn't about transport, and probably isn't about eductation.
See my post. It’s precisely about those things, plus autonomy.
I really don't see it GW. There's something else. The magic mustard. The more I think about it the more I think it is to do with something like pride.
No mate. It’s all in the data.
In the economy of the 21st century, if you leave a region to rot, you don’t get either domestic or foreign investment in growth businesses.
The UK has left them to rot for years, indeed it has been part of the consensus ideology to do so.
People who think the North just needs to get a bit of swagger (this is essentially also the Treasury’s view) remind me of those Victorians who blamed cholera on a “miasma”.
FFS, stay away from the Broadwick Street pump.
On a point of PB pedantry, I believe it was Broad St when it had the pump ... certainly when aforesaid pump was infected with cholera.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Government spending per head on transport in London - £877.76
Spending in the North East* - £314.11
And you could say much the same for all the other forms of infrastructure. Housing. Telecoms.
Even allowing for the difference in the cost of living, it is not 'treated the same as other, more prosperous areas' and it shows.
It's not the only problem but it is a big problem.
*Not being stupid I am aware Stoke isn't in the North East.
London is rather different though, and particularly for transport spending. Building an underground railway in Stoke would seem to be an unlikely winner. (One day though)
So you concede it's not treated the same way?
Oh yes. Absolutely. London is treated as an entirely different beast to anywhere else in the UK. Mostly the differences are around transport, and the contrast between driving to work or taking public transport is huge. I've no idea what percentage of the UK state revenues come from London, but it'll be a big number. Every other region in the UK benefits.
Visited the exterior sites of all the upcoming new-build Crossrail stations within the last month or so but noticed that TfL have left all the escalators on even though no passengers are due to be carried until "mid 2022"!
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
I don't know. Perhaps. There's something that happens to regons which isn't about state funding, isn't about transport, and probably isn't about eductation.
See my post. It’s precisely about those things, plus autonomy.
I really don't see it GW. There's something else. The magic mustard. The more I think about it the more I think it is to do with something like pride.
It's a fair point that you can't do regeneration just on the basis of civic pride. And if that is what levelling up turns out to be, it will be flogging a dead horse. But a lot of the great urban regenerations have had it as part of the mix.
Two things post-catching up on the latest New Statesman:
(1) on topic, Andrew Marr’s article is decidedly downbeat on Labour, even with its poll lead. His claim is that BJ’s criticism of Starmer as a “man without a plan” is cutting through, that dissatisfaction is rising internally with Starmer’s performance and that the Labour front bench is becoming increasingly apathetic (I realise to some that Marr’s view will make them more optimistic on Labour’s chances);
(2) the interview with Sergey Karaganov. What struck me was his use of the word “existential” in the interview, saying that, for the Russian regime, not only would defeat be an existential crisis but also a non-victory. Given Peskov has said Russia won’t use nuclear weapons unless it faces an existential threat, that could point to a greater willingness to use it under certain circumstances. Having said that, it could be a deliberately ploy knowing idiots like me would put 2 and 2 together…
1) is true in so far as Labour not being on 50% etc. Starmer isn’t a stratospheric Big Cheese, but he is looking at beating BJ at the next election
2) Russia had built up the myth that they are bigger, badder and back since the end of the cold war. They are facing the truth, now, that Japan is a bigger military power in most ways. Their national myth is taking a kicking because even more of the Near Abroad wants them to fuck off. And keep fucking off etc etc. there is definitely a sense that their next move may be a game of 52 Card Pickup
Massive spikes in immigration. Feels like Boris overshot with liberalizing work visas. I am fine with a bunch of lower paid NHS and social care workers coming, but seems like we have lowered the salary level too much outside this:
Meanwhile according to the woke, eg @kinabalu, Britain is "not pulling its weight with migrants"
We have huge amounts of net inward migration and a highly liberal points system. But it is never enough. Never
If you drill into the detail, you’ll see that while immigration has gone up significantly, the approach to asylum seekers is to basically fuck off.
Clearly Patel (and or Johnson) have decided that this is what voters want.
I think they have almost got the voters views right, but the occupation list for "skilled" immigration seems off. Are shopkeepers really a shortage profession that can not be filled by UK workers trained up? Administrative workers at universities? Day nursery managers? Youth workers? Copywriters?
It feels like every business lobby group has got their job on the "shortage" list. Combined with the low salary level (26k), you can see why immigration has spiked.
A few more jobs on the shortage list to be a skilled worker:
Aerobics instructor Personal trainer Exporter-importer Accounting clerk Buyer Sales agent Park ranger NVQ assessor Health and safety officer Transport clerk Business support manager Secretary Herd manager Gardener Groundsman Sheet metal worker Pipe fitter Welder Metal bench fitter Air conditioning fitter Car mechanic Vehicle assembler Electrician Bricklayer Carpentry joiner Builder Fencer Carpet fitter Knitter Weaver Shoe repairer Hand sewer Wallpaper printer Baker Baker assistant Bar manager Pottery worker Flower arranger Florist Creche worker Air hostess Window dresser Sales team leader Telephone researcher
They are clearly taking the piss with this "skilled worker" branding.
Of course. The government repeatedly lie and tell people what they want to hear, especially on subjects of immigration because the realities and perceptions don't match.
This has actually really annoyed me now I have seen the detail. Why the hell are phone researchers and gardeners getting skilled worker visas??
Because we don't have enough workers and the ratio of workers/rich pensioners is out of whack. That will be the case whether we are in or out of the EU, or have a Tory or even UKIP govt. Tory and Brexit voters were lied to by Tories and Leave politicians.
Please blame them for lying, rather than the system, the metropolitan elite or the migrants.
This is just the same old bullshit that has been debunked a hundred times.
The level of immigration you would need to meaningfully alter the elderly dependency ratio is staggering. You would have to multiply immigration by about 10x and cause massive integration issues.
As for "enough workers", we have plenty of workers for unskilled jobs like florists and telesales. The problem is the pay and conditions in those jobs are shit.
As always, you "let them all in" types don't actually address the issue of why we need to import shopkeepers as skilled workers, so instead you do this sneering patronization.
Perhaps you could have a go at answering the question in your last paragraph instead of having a shit-fit about it.
Why indeed do we need to import flower-arrangers, which was another skilled profession I saw on the list.
We don't and the government should get criticism for it.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
I don't know. Perhaps. There's something that happens to regons which isn't about state funding, isn't about transport, and probably isn't about eductation.
See my post. It’s precisely about those things, plus autonomy.
I really don't see it GW. There's something else. The magic mustard. The more I think about it the more I think it is to do with something like pride.
It's a fair point that you can't do regeneration just on the basis of civic pride. And if that is what levelling up turns out to be, it will be flogging a dead horse. But a lot of the great urban regenerations have had it as part of the mix.
Pride comes from autonomy.
Successful regeneration (or just generation) comes from local decision makers and local stakeholders with the means to make local decisions around a shared vision.
Of course, it's not easy to assess all transport spending on a regional basis. I'd argue all of the HS2 spend in London should be considered spending for the Midlands and the North.
The primary purpose of HS2 is to facilitate more commuter services in London and the Home Counties.
It will do nothing for connectivity between northern cities.
Russell Warne has spent many hours scrutinising undergraduate psychology textbooks. As a professor of psychology at Utah Valley University, he wasn’t looking for insight, but for mistakes – and he found plenty. Some of the worst concerned IQ tests. “The most common inaccuracy I found, by far, was the claim that intelligence tests are biased against certain groups,” he says. Yet intelligence researchers are at pains to ensure that IQ tests are fair and not culturally biased. “Another, very common one was the idea that intelligence is difficult to measure.”
The truth about intelligence: A guide for the confusedOur thinking on human intellect is clouded with misinformation. But the latest science of intelligence is surprisingly enlightening
No wonder IQ tests are often considered controversial and flaky. But that simply isn’t the case. “Despite the critiques, the intelligence test is one of the most reliable and solid behavioural tests ever invented,” says Rex Jung at the University of New Mexico.
When the historians come to write The Downfall of The West, one of the chapters should be devoted to IQ tests, and how we were persuaded to regard these perfectly valid, hugely useful measurements as somehow bestial and racist by, firstly, a bunch of west-hating Marxists, and, secondly, a bunch of west-hating Marxists fuelled by Chinese and Russian bots, memes, and algorithms
Do the Chinese disregard IQ tests because they sometimes pump out "uncomfortable" data? Of course not
Yet right now American universities - the best in the world (but not for much longer) - are abandoning SATs (based on IQ tests) because they produce "unequal racial outcomes". Thus the canker spreads
"In an effort to eliminate high-stakes exams because of equity concerns, California State University, the country’s largest four-year university system, announced it is eliminating standardized tests for undergraduate admissions."
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
I don't know. Perhaps. There's something that happens to regons which isn't about state funding, isn't about transport, and probably isn't about eductation.
See my post. It’s precisely about those things, plus autonomy.
I really don't see it GW. There's something else. The magic mustard. The more I think about it the more I think it is to do with something like pride.
No mate. It’s all in the data.
In the economy of the 21st century, if you leave a region to rot, you don’t get either domestic or foreign investment in growth businesses.
The UK has left them to rot for years, indeed it has been part of the consensus ideology to do so.
I struggle to see it that way. I'm sure that boosting education and transport everywhere is a good thing though, so we're not likely far adrift as to what should be done.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
There's a chunk of that, I reckon. Places that were somewhere, that were damn good at what they did, but they lose their purpose. Heck, I grew up in a place a bit like that in a different part of the country. Partly, the money that was coming stops, and that shows. But also, there's the emotional kick, the difficulty of working out what the place is for next. And in some (maybe many) cases, the answer is "not much", or "something a lot less profitable than before".
It needn't last forever, but it's painful while it lasts. And civic pride (alongside investment in infrastructure and retraining) is part of the mix of getting over the gap.
Yes, but the loss of pride follows the economic decline, not so much the other way round.
As Leon goes on to relate, Britain has an awful lot of these places as a result of industrialising early and densely.
I could go on, but I feel I’ve written a lot about this before. The only thing that matters is how to fix it.
Essentially the answers are:
1. Autonomy 2. Infrastructure 3. Skills
The first seems to be anathema to British tradition, and 2 and 3 require money - lots of it and over a long term, too.
It’s possible. East Germany is the leading example. Even there, the places have suffered a lot of depopulation, but at least those that are left are now wealthier than much of the UK.
I applaud your desire to fix places like Stoke, but I think your 1, 2, and 3 are well wide of the mark.
Wales and Scotland have autonomy, and a fairly significant financial bonus to go with it (obviously not something that every proposed autonomous region can have, as by definition, everyone cannot have 'more'.),and they still have 'Stokes' and plenty of them.
Infrastructure is fine, but if somewhere is a jobless dive, all infrastructure does is make it easier to get out, a bit like all HS2 would have done is provide a bigger commuter base for London.
Skills, likewise, whilst helpful, improve areas. Very little point in having skills, with nowhere to put them to use.
To me, those are just the old, tried and failed solutions.
My 1, 2, and 3 of post-industrial regeneration would be as follows I think.
1. Reindustrialisation. The best thing to do in a former coal mining town is mine coal. The best thing to do in a former fishing town is fish. The best thing to do in a boot making town is make boots. This is just a statement of the obvious really. Communities have gathered around these jobs. It's unlikely that they are all going to find work as trendy Web designers, though the possibility should of course not be dismissed. What will work is provably going to be fairly close to what worked before.
2. Carrot and stick tax incentives. Enterprise zones with lower taxes to start new businesses. Higher taxes on landlords with run-down high street property portfolios and developers sitting on land.
3. Onshoring. Government should use its influence to on-shore as much business as possible. Call-centres. Manufacturing. Production of green energy materials and devices.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
Bollocks. (That's my professional opinion having a PhD in psychology and a chair at a Russell Group university.)
Ok, so what statistical measure is MORE reliable amd repeatable than IQ in psychology? And I will laugh at you if you come back with a sub-component of IQ.
I'm not here to do your homework for you. My consultancy fees are £1000 per day. I may have time in the autumn if the COVID work dies down.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Do you really think the decline of the “North” (yes I know Stoke is in the Midlands) can be attributed to a “loss of pride”?
There's a chunk of that, I reckon. Places that were somewhere, that were damn good at what they did, but they lose their purpose. Heck, I grew up in a place a bit like that in a different part of the country. Partly, the money that was coming stops, and that shows. But also, there's the emotional kick, the difficulty of working out what the place is for next. And in some (maybe many) cases, the answer is "not much", or "something a lot less profitable than before".
It needn't last forever, but it's painful while it lasts. And civic pride (alongside investment in infrastructure and retraining) is part of the mix of getting over the gap.
Yes, but the loss of pride follows the economic decline, not so much the other way round.
As Leon goes on to relate, Britain has an awful lot of these places as a result of industrialising early and densely.
I could go on, but I feel I’ve written a lot about this before. The only thing that matters is how to fix it.
Essentially the answers are:
1. Autonomy 2. Infrastructure 3. Skills
The first seems to be anathema to British tradition, and 2 and 3 require money - lots of it and over a long term, too.
It’s possible. East Germany is the leading example. Even there, the places have suffered a lot of depopulation, but at least those that are left are now wealthier than much of the UK.
I applaud your desire to fix places like Stoke, but I think your 1, 2, and 3 are well wide of the mark.
Wales and Scotland have autonomy, and a fairly significant financial bonus to go with it (obviously not something that every proposed autonomous region can have, as by definition, everyone cannot have 'more'.),and they still have 'Stokes' and plenty of them.
Infrastructure is fine, but if somewhere is a jobless dive, all infrastructure does is make it easier to get out, a bit like all HS2 would have done is provide a bigger commuter base for London.
Skills, likewise, whilst helpful, improve areas. Very little point in having skills, with nowhere to put them to use.
To me, those are just the old, tried and failed solutions.
My 1, 2, and 3 of post-industrial regeneration would be as follows I think.
1. Reindustrialisation. The best thing to do in a former coal mining town is mine coal. The best thing to do in a former fishing town is fish. The best thing to do in a boot making town is make boots. This is just a statement of the obvious really. Communities have gathered around these jobs. It's unlikely that they are all going to find work as trendy Web designers, though the possibility should of course not be dismissed. What will work is provably going to be fairly close to what worked before.
2. Carrot and stick tax incentives. Enterprise zones with lower taxes to start new businesses. Higher taxes on landlords with run-down high street property portfolios and developers sitting on land.
3. Onshoring. Government should use its influence to on-shore as much business as possible. Call-centres. Manufacturing. Production of green energy materials and devices.
That would put a rocket up it.
Scotland has autonomy and some fiscal clout. Wales has less.
Glasgow and Cardiff, which is where the wealth must be created, have none.
Also, both Executives have generally bought into the UK ideology that money should be spent on social care rather than infrastructure and priming wealth creation.
Transport spending is - or should be - about making it easier for a labour pool to access jobs (and vice versa) not making it “easier to get out”.
As to your idea to “bring back coal mining”, it is totally batshit. Do you think South Korea should give up shipbuilding and auto and revert to fishing or whatever they did before?
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
And yet weirdly it gets literally millions of tourists - or did. Whether they will go back now the council have shut all the museums is another question.
Parts of Stoke are alright. The station is impressive, as is the university campus.
But I must admit my favourite sight in Stoke is a big green sign that says 'Uttoxeter A50.'
The council closing all the museums - which had the finest collection of ceramics in the country (better than the V&A) - tells us a lot of places like Stoke.
Both the place itself, and how it is treated by the rest of the country.
Not the main museum with the big collection. The proposal is to be seasonal with the Gladstone Pottery Museum which is an industrial heritage site and also reducing opening times at the City Museum. Regrettable, but let's not exaggerate. An injection of funds to spearhead more regeneration via culture would be money well spent though.
Ignoring the exaggerated rhetoric about Stoke on this thread, there is a mixed picture. There are areas of post-industrial dereliction and areas with a lot of poverty and social problems. There are also lots of aspects that are very positive and taking the Potteries and immediate area as a whole lot of there is a lot that is interesting and attractive and it has a great setting on the edge of the Peak District. Longer term I think it has more potential than some post-industrial areas simply because of its fantastic location within England. Less than an hour and half Stoke to Euston, central between Birmingham and Manchester with no geographical barriers.
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
And yet weirdly it gets literally millions of tourists - or did. Whether they will go back now the council have shut all the museums is another question.
Parts of Stoke are alright. The station is impressive, as is the university campus.
But I must admit my favourite sight in Stoke is a big green sign that says 'Uttoxeter A50.'
The council closing all the museums - which had the finest collection of ceramics in the country (better than the V&A) - tells us a lot of places like Stoke.
Both the place itself, and how it is treated by the rest of the country.
Not the main museum with the big collection. The proposal is to be seasonal with the Gladstone Pottery Museum which is an industrial heritage site and also reducing opening times at the City Museum. Regrettable, but let's not exaggerate. An injection of funds to spearhead more regeneration via culture would be money well spent though.
Ignoring the exaggerated rhetoric about Stoke on this thread, there is a mixed picture. There are areas of post-industrial dereliction and areas with a lot of poverty and social problems. There are also lots of aspects that are very positive and taking the Potteries and immediate area as a whole lot of there is a lot that is interesting and attractive and it has a great setting on the edge of the Peak District. Longer term I think it has more potential than some post-industrial areas simply because of its fantastic location within England. Less than an hour and half Stoke to Euston, central between Birmingham and Manchester with no geographical barriers.
I have to confess I’m not an expert on Stoke. But I would note, too, on the positive side, the rise of Bet365.
I agree with you that Stoke could have a positive future, as a kind of high growth dormitory with enviable links to Birmingham, Manchester (and Liverpool).
Kind of like Warrington or Milton Keynes, with pottery kilns.
Here’s a link to a blog which suggests there is some fantastic architecture in Stoke which perhaps needs better joining up.
What it needs is local vision to get there. If I was in charge of Stoke I would indeed to be over-investing in the local realm in order to draw in workers from the above-mentioned cities.
Macron deserves a vote of thanks! It might not have been caused by Brexit but the dystopian vision that is Stoke would have been vastly improved by greater EU integration and the population speaking with their feet. Would they live and work in stoke if they could as easily work and live in Paris Venice Florence Amsterdam Barcelona Vienna Ibiza or Palma just a short train ride away? Wouldn't Stoke have to get it's act together if it wanted it's population to stay?
Of course Stoke didn't become like that because of Brexit, it voted for Brexit because it had become like that.
Less to do with Brexit and more that Stoke is a dump and people can’t escape quickly enough .
I had a girlfriend from Stoke, once. Very pretty elfin blonde. Helen
Worked in the record biz
I have never met someone so desperately keen NOT to ever return to their hometown
My father grew up in Stoke. He left to go to Uni and never went back. He does not have fond memories of the place
Here's a prediction: until the Left stops insulting places like Stoke-on-Trent they'll never win power again.
Here's another prediction: unless this government starts successfully "levelling-up" places like Stoke-on Trent they won't get re-elected.
Is it a government thing though? I'm very far from convinced that it is. Stoke or other places are treated the same as far more prosperous areas after all. It's almost like a sort of local malaise that affects some areas. If government action can solve it then I'd be the first to support that, but I think there's something else going on, and I've no idea what it is. (Perhaps a loss of pride? Stoke was once world reknown)
Government spending per head on transport in London - £877.76
Spending in the North East* - £314.11
And you could say much the same for all the other forms of infrastructure. Housing. Telecoms.
Even allowing for the difference in the cost of living, it is not 'treated the same as other, more prosperous areas' and it shows.
It's not the only problem but it is a big problem.
*Not being stupid I am aware Stoke isn't in the North East.
The cost of buying & demolishing property is higher in Camden than in the North East though which will affect the costs for the same output
The spending showed a similar discrepancy years back before Crossrail and HS2.
Any project requiring purchase of land or property (or compensating neighbours) will cost more in London
From my memory, that discrepancy existed a good decade ago - in fact, might well have been worse - before there was anything needing major land purchases.
How about the additional complexity of tunnelling through ground that has been built on for millennia?
The best thing to come out of Stoke-on-Trent is the A500.
The Middlesbrough of the West Midlands.
A silly thing to say Mr Eagles.
The A500 takes you to Crewe.
The A50 takes you to Dovedale.
I grew up between Stoke and Crewe, in a place called Alsager, actually it seemed quite a nice place at the time. Though both Crewe and Stoke have lost their main industries in the 40 years or so since, which probably explains most of the decline.
Of course I moved to Surrey after university, like 20% of the other people on this site from what I can see. We ought to open a Woking chapter of PB...
People who think the North just needs to get a bit of swagger (this is essentially also the Treasury’s view) remind me of those Victorians who blamed cholera on a “miasma”.
FFS, stay away from the Broadwick Street pump.
When they produce politicians with a bit of it they are declared unelectable because of their accent.
Its almost as if IQ is a crap and spurious measure...
This is just unscientific bullshit. IQ is THE most reliable metric in the whole of modern psychology. If it doesn't meet your scientific standards than you can throw out the entire field of study as worthless.
Bollocks. (That's my professional opinion having a PhD in psychology and a chair at a Russell Group university.)
Ok, so what statistical measure is MORE reliable amd repeatable than IQ in psychology? And I will laugh at you if you come back with a sub-component of IQ.
It isn't controversial to note that with training, one can increase the score you get on IQ tests by quite a significant amount. I've posted academic studies before on the subject, and you obviously can't move someone from 65 to 130, but a difference of 20 points between someone who has never been exposed to the test before, and someone who has been trained, is a pretty significant difference.
All but one of the BOTTOM 10 for which we have figures has lower taxes than the UK.
So what, they are not developed nations so that is not comparing like with like. Of developed nations like the UK those with the lowest taxes generally have higher gdp per capita than those with the highest taxes
So you want to prove that wealth is inversely correlated to tax rates, and to do that you want to exclude low-wealth countries.
Does... does anyone else see the problem here?
When did I ever say that?
It is correlated with average IQ of the nation and lower tax rates.
Developed nations all have average IQs above the global average, hence it is tax rates that largely determines average gdp per capita for them
Aaand we're back to the thickie-Africans "discussion". Fucking wonderful.
Average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115. Fully one standard deviation above the “human average”
Meanwhile American Jews are at least twice as rich, on average, as non Jewish Americans
“Much of the Jewish American community lead middle class lifestyles.[130] While the median household net worth of the typical American family is $99,500, among American Jews the figure is $443,000.[131][132] In addition, the median Jewish American income is estimated to be in the range of $97,000 to $98,000, nearly twice as high the American national median.”
Forget Africa, are you honestly claiming there is no link between these two facts?
Indeed, Jews have the highest average verbal IQ in the world.
East Asians have the highest average numerical IQ in the world.
Those are just facts however much the left deny them
No they aren't. They are highly contentious. You only have to read much of the debate on it because there are so many variables. Many poor countries score around 50. Nepal is 43. Do you really think the average intelligence of these people is actual a score between idiot and moron. Of course they aren't.
Having had to take many of these tests in my career and having had to set them for potential rmployees I explained the methods I could use to up your score by 10 - 20 points. @rcs1000 then came up with a study showing you could train someone to increase their score by 20 points, and this is in well educated countries like the UK and USA.
So even Leon's standard deviation example is nonsense as there are just so many variables. Genetically different people might have different IQs but that could be for all sorts of reasons.
This is just unscientific shite
IQ tests measure something important, which allows people to succeed in a capitalist society, if it upsets you, don't call it "intelligence"
Jews are smarter ON AVERAGE than non-Jews. IQ tests detect that. As do Nobel Prizes:
"At least 210 Jews and people of half- or three-quarters-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize, accounting for 22% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2021,"
Read that again, between a fifth and a quarter of all Nobel Prizes have gone to people of notably Jewish ancestry, yet Jews constitute perhaps 0.2-0.3% of the global population
What is the point in denying this obvious stuff? Honestly, it makes the commenter sound wilfully retarded. I understand why a politician in a public forum may need to steer clear of these contentious issues, but this is a small political betting website. FFS
'unscientific shite' you say.
One of us is a scientist, one isn't. One of us has specific knowledge in this area and one of us doesn't. One of us suffers from the Dunning Kruger effect.
Now I don't deny there may be genetic differences across races (you seem to have missed that) but the variables are so huge it is impossible to measure.
Let's look at the opposite end of your example. Are you really claiming that the average IQ of Nepal is 43? That is idiot level. If not then what makes you think the other end of the IQ range is right.
Comments
Camden was an example picked to wind up @Leon
Any project requiring purchase of land or property (or compensating neighbours) will cost more in London
IQ tests measure something important, which allows people to succeed in a capitalist society, if it upsets you, don't call it "intelligence"
Jews are smarter ON AVERAGE than non-Jews. IQ tests detect that. As do Nobel Prizes:
"At least 210 Jews and people of half- or three-quarters-Jewish ancestry have been awarded the Nobel Prize, accounting for 22% of all individual recipients worldwide between 1901 and 2021,"
Read that again, between a fifth and a quarter of all Nobel Prizes have gone to people of notably Jewish ancestry, yet Jews constitute perhaps 0.2-0.3% of the global population
What is the point in denying this obvious stuff? Honestly, it makes the commenter sound wilfully retarded. I understand why a politician in a public forum may need to steer clear of these contentious issues, but this is a small political betting website. FFS
As Leon goes on to relate, Britain has an awful lot of these places as a result of industrialising early and densely.
I could go on, but I feel I’ve written a lot about this before. The only thing that matters is how to fix it.
Essentially the answers are:
1. Autonomy
2. Infrastructure
3. Skills
The first seems to be anathema to British tradition, and 2 and 3 require money - lots of it and over a long term, too.
It’s possible. East Germany is the leading example. Even there, the places have suffered a lot of depopulation, but at least those that are left are now wealthier than much of the UK.
FFS, stay away from the Broadwick Street pump.
Read The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould
Psychology says nothing interesting or reproducible or falsifiable. Lovely little science otherwise.
Do the Chinese disregard IQ tests because they sometimes pump out "uncomfortable" data? Of course not
Yet right now American universities - the best in the world (but not for much longer) - are abandoning SATs (based on IQ tests) because they produce "unequal racial outcomes". Thus the canker spreads
"In an effort to eliminate high-stakes exams because of equity concerns, California State University, the country’s largest four-year university system, announced it is eliminating standardized tests for undergraduate admissions."
https://www.deseret.com/2022/3/24/22994611/californias-23-school-university-system-drops-sat-act-tests-test-free-admission
"Stephen Jay Gould: Intuitive Marxist and Biologist of Freedom
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0893569032000163375?journalCode=rrmx20
It’s all in the data.
In the economy of the 21st century, if you leave a region to rot, you don’t get either domestic or foreign investment in growth businesses.
The UK has left them to rot for years, indeed it has been part of the consensus ideology to do so.
2) Russia had built up the myth that they are bigger, badder and back since the end of the cold war. They are facing the truth, now, that Japan is a bigger military power in most ways. Their national myth is taking a kicking because even more of the Near Abroad wants them to fuck off. And keep fucking off etc etc. there is definitely a sense that their next move may be a game of 52 Card Pickup
Successful regeneration (or just generation) comes from local decision makers and local stakeholders with the means to make local decisions around a shared vision.
That’s pride-in-action.
It will do nothing for connectivity between northern cities.
This is not surprising. Intelligence without mental discipline and application is ephemeral. I see this all the time with our students.
Wales and Scotland have autonomy, and a fairly significant financial bonus to go with it (obviously not something that every proposed autonomous region can have, as by definition, everyone cannot have 'more'.),and they still have 'Stokes' and plenty of them.
Infrastructure is fine, but if somewhere is a jobless dive, all infrastructure does is make it easier to get out, a bit like all HS2 would have done is provide a bigger commuter base for London.
Skills, likewise, whilst helpful, improve areas. Very little point in having skills, with nowhere to put them to use.
To me, those are just the old, tried and failed solutions.
My 1, 2, and 3 of post-industrial regeneration would be as follows I think.
1. Reindustrialisation. The best thing to do in a former coal mining town is mine coal. The best thing to do in a former fishing town is fish. The best thing to do in a boot making town is make boots. This is just a statement of the obvious really. Communities have gathered around these jobs. It's unlikely that they are all going to find work as trendy Web designers, though the possibility should of course not be dismissed. What will work is provably going to be fairly close to what worked before.
2. Carrot and stick tax incentives. Enterprise zones with lower taxes to start new businesses. Higher taxes on landlords with run-down high street property portfolios and developers sitting on land.
3. Onshoring. Government should use its influence to on-shore as much business as possible. Call-centres. Manufacturing. Production of green energy materials and devices.
That would put a rocket up it.
Wales has less.
Glasgow and Cardiff, which is where the wealth must be created, have none.
Also, both Executives have generally bought into the UK ideology that money should be spent on social care rather than infrastructure and priming wealth creation.
Transport spending is - or should be - about making it easier for a labour pool to access jobs (and vice versa) not making it “easier to get out”.
As to your idea to “bring back coal mining”, it is totally batshit. Do you think South Korea should give up shipbuilding and auto and revert to fishing or whatever they did before?
Ignoring the exaggerated rhetoric about Stoke on this thread, there is a mixed picture. There are areas of post-industrial dereliction and areas with a lot of poverty and social problems. There are also lots of aspects that are very positive and taking the Potteries and immediate area as a whole lot of there is a lot that is interesting and attractive and it has a great setting on the edge of the Peak District. Longer term I think it has more potential than some post-industrial areas simply because of its fantastic location within England. Less than an hour and half Stoke to Euston, central between Birmingham and Manchester with no geographical barriers.
But I would note, too, on the positive side, the rise of Bet365.
I agree with you that Stoke could have a positive future, as a kind of high growth dormitory with enviable links to Birmingham, Manchester (and Liverpool).
Kind of like Warrington or Milton Keynes, with pottery kilns.
Here’s a link to a blog which suggests there is some fantastic architecture in Stoke which perhaps needs better joining up.
http://www.jonestheplanner.co.uk/?m=1
What it needs is local vision to get there.
If I was in charge of Stoke I would indeed to be over-investing in the local realm in order to draw in workers from the above-mentioned cities.
Of course I moved to Surrey after university, like 20% of the other people on this site from what I can see. We ought to open a Woking chapter of PB...
One of us is a scientist, one isn't. One of us has specific knowledge in this area and one of us doesn't. One of us suffers from the Dunning Kruger effect.
Now I don't deny there may be genetic differences across races (you seem to have missed that) but the variables are so huge it is impossible to measure.
Let's look at the opposite end of your example. Are you really claiming that the average IQ of Nepal is 43? That is idiot level. If not then what makes you think the other end of the IQ range is right.