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No 10 won’t be holding any parties after seeing this poll – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,707
edited April 2022 in General
No 10 won’t be holding any parties after seeing this poll – politicalbetting.com

Despite Britons thinking the pandemic is getting worse, the use of masks is at its lowest level since July 2020Only 42% now say they're wearing face masks in public spaces, from 53% when last asked (22-23 Feb)https://t.co/a66mVE96mn pic.twitter.com/aozM1ZwihL

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    First past the post!
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    I'm glad to see this thread as it resonates not only with me but with many others I know.

    It may surprise those on this forum who have become dismissive of covid and the need for protection, including Leon (who has caught it, what, four times already?). But many people are very alarmed at what they are seeing.

    The Government's approach is driven by Boris Johnson's desire to keep his right-wingers happy, not by the health and wellbeing of our nation.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited April 2022
    I wonder what food rationing would do to Tory polling figures? Over 15% food inflation. The next wage round is going to be tense.

    “For grocery expert, Ged Futter, the food industry is now grappling with supply issues not experienced since the end of the Second World War.

    "The immediate focus is sunflower oil and rapeseed oil, but there will be many more products which will be affected over the coming months. It's some of the ingredients you don't even think about, like starch, which comes from wheat."

    He believes thousands of products will have to be reformulated… He says the ripple effects from the war are creating "scarily high" price rises, adding to already rising prices on the supermarket shelves.

    "I think the level of food inflation we are now going to be seeing will be in excess of 15%'"”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60941091
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    Meanwhile a quite extraordinary situation. The Mail on Sunday, The Sunday Times and Sunday Telegraph are carrying another sleaze story on their front pages about a Tory MP:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-60970634

    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/

    BUT someone is clearly out on a gagging campaign because Sky News have blanked the relevant front pages and they have not carried the Mail at all. https://news.sky.com/story/saturdays-national-newspaper-front-pages-12427754

    It's most unusual to see the BBC more courageous than Sky on something like this. They have the story on their main news.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60967143

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679935/Married-Tory-MP-whip-suspended-caught-secret-tape-sting.html

  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited April 2022
    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Nailed on:

    1. Boris Johnson will lead the Conservatives at the next UK GE
    2. Boris Johnson will lead the Conservatives to defeat at the next UK GE
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,208
    edited April 2022
    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...



    And these were the local election results two years before the general election...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_United_Kingdom_local_elections

    Labour 47%
    Conservatives 25%
    Lib Dems 23%


  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    The little 'un is booked in for his jab on Tuesday morning. He's keen for it, so my idea of visiting the toyshop afterwards wasn't actually needed. We'll still go. :)

    There doesn't seem to be much talk about the opening up of jabs for 5-12 year olds on here.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...



    And these were the local election results two years before the general election...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_United_Kingdom_local_elections

    Labour 47%
    Conservatives 25%
    Lib Dems 23%


    Look at all that red in the central belt. The SNP were confined to Moray, Perth & Kinross and Angus. In retrospect the collapse of SLab hegemony seems inevitable. But it didn’t look that way in the early to mid 1990s.

    Seemingly invincible regimes do fall, but they have to create the seeds of their own destruction. For the Tories, the seed was Brexit.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?

    All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.

    Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.

    The Poles gave us Copernicus.


    And Chopin.

    And one of my primary school teachers.
    John III Sobieski, the man who finally turned back the expanding Ottoman Empire at the Battle of Vienna.

    Ukraine gave us Khrushchev - for good or for ill - and a case could be made for Trotsky and Gorbachev as well.
    I should have mentioned Joseph Conrad and Sergei Prokofiev.
    Amazing chap Conrad. He was pals with both Neil Munro, the author of the comedy classic Para Handy, and Cunninghame Graham, the Liberal MP who went on to become the first socialist MP in the Commons and helped found both the Labour Party and then the Scottish National Party.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    Indeed. The Tory USP is economic competence. The “Fuck business” incident seemed like trivial Westminster Bubble detail at the time. It wasn’t. ‘Fuck business’ was the beginning of the end.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,801
    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,407
    edited April 2022
    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    Good morning

    Why anyone takes @Heathener seriously I do not know

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    These are all good points.

    The only thing I would want to add though is that I know people who have been pretty dismissive of covid, taking the kind of Leon line on it, who have caught it recently and who have felt really rough. None of them died, it's true, so the vaccines did their job brilliantly but they felt 'awful' and were unable to work for c. 5 to 7 days because of feeling too ill. So I don't think it's just about a requirement to isolate. It still makes a lot of people too ill to work. My ex, my son's father, was pretty cavalier about covid until he got it two weeks ago and has now changed his tune.

    I'm avoiding entering the debate, which is my own bugbear, about the ongoing danger to vulnerable people and the elderly. There's also ongoing concern about the longterm health effects of this. There was a pretty strong warning from Dr Stephen Griffin yesterday. Is this just another doom-monger scientist as the Mail would have us believe? Or should we be just a wee bit more careful? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/covid-warning-uk-faces-very-26619063
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    Good morning

    Why anyone takes @Heathener seriously I do not know

    Here you go again. Incapable of addressing the points so you attack me personally.

    It really says an awful lot about you.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    Good morning

    Why anyone takes @Heathener seriously I do not know

    Here you go again. Incapable of addressing the points so you attack me personally.

    It really says an awful lot about you.
    To be honest I cannot be bothered and I really do not care how you see me
  • Options
    It looks to me as if this pandemic still has a bit to run. I am all for freedom returning and we should be aware that the damage of lockdowns on public health is also damaging.

    It does seem as if the UK government have gone a bit too far too quickly. I am not sure they are being very sensible.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    He is guilty in the eyes of public opinion but has he been found guilty in law yet
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    edited April 2022

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    Good morning

    Why anyone takes @Heathener seriously I do not know

    He has made interesting and well balanced comments today.

    You seem to have a vendetta which is quite unpleasant. Is the fault with you?
    Thank you

    ('She' though ;) )
  • Options

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    Good morning

    Why anyone takes @Heathener seriously I do not know

    He has made interesting and well balanced comments today.

    You seem to have a vendetta which is quite unpleasant. Is the fault with you?
    I do not have a vendetta against anyone and I think you will find he is a she
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Outcome next UK GE - best prices

    NOM 1.94
    Con Maj 3.1
    Lab Maj 5.6

    Can someone explain to me why Lab Maj is shorter than 10?

    In order to gain a Majority in the Commons (even a tiny one), Labour has to do one of two things, either:

    1. Annihilate the SNP
    2. Win England by a landslide

    Anyone who’s had a good look at Anas Sarwar, Jackie Baillie, Daniel Johnson and Pauline McNeill (who??) knows that 1 ain’t happening anytime soon. Therefore I can only conclude that some serious cash is being wagered on 2. Evidence for 2 in the public domain is scant, so maybe somebody knows something we don’t?

    (Third possibility is negligible liquidity.)
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    edited April 2022

    Heathener said:

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    Good morning

    Why anyone takes @Heathener seriously I do not know

    Here you go again. Incapable of addressing the points so you attack me personally.

    It really says an awful lot about you.
    To be honest I cannot be bothered and I really do not care how you see me
    If you really didn't care, but can't bring yourself to engage, then can I suggest you ignore me instead. There's no need to encourage everyone else to do the same: it just doesn't make you look very pleasant as DD says.

    Have a nice day everyone.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091

    It looks to me as if this pandemic still has a bit to run. I am all for freedom returning and we should be aware that the damage of lockdowns on public health is also damaging.

    It does seem as if the UK government have gone a bit too far too quickly. I am not sure they are being very sensible.

    I'm minded to agree with you, but there are dangers for the government whatever they did. People do not want to be locked down, or particularly careful any more. The other day we had a school play, and it was wonderful to get everyone in a packed school hall once more. And I mean wonderful. Only four people (me included) wore masks, but I certainly do not condemn those who did not.

    The party mess has not helped, but even before that, people were fed up with the restrictions. I certainly was - and I'll be taking the little 'un to as many places as possible this Easter. I'll be wearing a mask in busy places, though ...

    Then there are the economic dangers of having more restrictions, which should not be underplayed given the economic problems heading out way.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,407
    edited April 2022

    It looks to me as if this pandemic still has a bit to run. I am all for freedom returning and we should be aware that the damage of lockdowns on public health is also damaging.

    It does seem as if the UK government have gone a bit too far too quickly. I am not sure they are being very sensible.

    I'm minded to agree with you, but there are dangers for the government whatever they did. People do not want to be locked down, or particularly careful any more. The other day we had a school play, and it was wonderful to get everyone in a packed school hall once more. And I mean wonderful. Only four people (me included) wore masks, but I certainly do not condemn those who did not.

    The party mess has not helped, but even before that, people were fed up with the restrictions. I certainly was - and I'll be taking the little 'un to as many places as possible this Easter. I'll be wearing a mask in busy places, though ...

    Then there are the economic dangers of having more restrictions, which should not be underplayed given the economic problems heading out way.
    I went into M & S yesterday and to be honest was amazed at how few were wearing masks, it was almost like we were back pre covid

    Recently all our family apart from my wife and I have had covid but it really was like a bad cold

    We are going through the change from pandemic to endemic and there will be bumps in the road but the 4th jabs are now underway and we do need to trust the vaccine

    I would also suggest it would be very difficult to reimpose restrictions in the absence of a new more dangerous variant
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,153

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    Good morning

    Why anyone takes @Heathener seriously I do not know

    He has made interesting and well balanced comments today.

    You seem to have a vendetta which is quite unpleasant. Is the fault with you?
    No.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    edited April 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078
    Good morning one and all. Brighter here, but still below zero outside. At least according to. my weather app.

    Some good points this morning, but I would suggest that while our Govt. may deserve credit for the way it's supported the Ukrainian government and armed forces it is getting very little, and deservedly so, for the way it's dealing with the refugee issue. Like everyone else I don't talk to all that many people, but the words 'shame' and 'shameful' crop up when the official British reaction is discussed.
    While individuals may not be affected, there are friends of friends who have been.

    As others have said, Covid hasn't gone away; however, as Mr J notes people are fed up with the restrictions, but they are still isolating when they find they have it, or indeed test positive although symptom-free.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,208
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    In some ways the government has been lucky again. Try to imagine what the headlines about Covid would be if the news was not dominated by Ukraine and the threat of war. I have little doubt that there would be enormous pressure for more lockdowns at the current levels of infection, which are indeed some of the very highest we have had.

    I personally know more people with Covid right now than at any point in the pandemic. Statistically, most of us do. But those people, who are all safely vaccinated seem to have 2-3 days of feeling genuinely unwell and then the balance of a week slowly improving. No one I know has gone to hospital. Friends who are doctors or the spouses of doctors confirm that in their experience the only people who are in hospital because of Covid are the unvaccinated. Many more happen to be in hospital when testing positive but that is not why they are there.

    As long as this remains the pattern the government can try to keep the economy returning to something like normal. Having people distracted by something else is definitely helping.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    It looks to me as if this pandemic still has a bit to run. I am all for freedom returning and we should be aware that the damage of lockdowns on public health is also damaging.

    It does seem as if the UK government have gone a bit too far too quickly. I am not sure they are being very sensible.

    I'm minded to agree with you, but there are dangers for the government whatever they did. People do not want to be locked down, or particularly careful any more. The other day we had a school play, and it was wonderful to get everyone in a packed school hall once more. And I mean wonderful. Only four people (me included) wore masks, but I certainly do not condemn those who did not.

    The party mess has not helped, but even before that, people were fed up with the restrictions. I certainly was - and I'll be taking the little 'un to as many places as possible this Easter. I'll be wearing a mask in busy places, though ...

    Then there are the economic dangers of having more restrictions, which should not be underplayed given the economic problems heading out way.
    I went into M & S yesterday and to be honest was amazed at how few were wearing masks, it was almost like we were back pre covid

    Recently all our family apart from my wife and I have had covid but it really was like a bad cold

    We are going through the change from pandemic to endemic and there will be bumps in the road but the 4th jabs are now underway and we do need to trust the vaccine

    I would also suggest it would be very difficult to reimpose restrictions in the absence of a new more dangerous variant
    I think that's spot on. Also there's not much evidence across countries that those with strict restrictions have done better than those without. So if restrictions are hugely expensive and don't do much good, why bother?

    Vaccines are, and always have been, the key.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    Indeed. The Tory USP is economic competence. The “Fuck business” incident seemed like trivial Westminster Bubble detail at the time. It wasn’t. ‘Fuck business’ was the beginning of the end.
    It was the begniing of the end of minority Tory government. After that they won a comfortable majority.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,597
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,334
    edited April 2022
    I’m surprised this is not a bigger story

    https://twitter.com/essexlive/status/1510253214913818626?s=21&t=dClFhmnEetCxvV-jcTbB8Q

    The government were warned 50 days ago and seem totally unprepared. What a shock.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
    Well, leaving aside the false equivalence such a line would make, actually I would expect him to resign over a parking offence. Just as Harriet Harman should have resigned as solicitor general for her speeding offences, or for that time she failed to stop after an accident.

    If you're right about the line they take though, that might well make matters worse. 'Boris compares Covid to parking on double yellow lines' rather begs the question of why we had so many draconian restrictions.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    The gold standard is the ons population study which has been testing the same people once a week for 2 years now. This is still going on (outrageously it seems there w was an attempt to stop it which Javid managed to head off). I think the stories about 1 person in 13 has it etc are based on this survey
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,298
    Diet news.


  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Fishing,

    "Vaccines are, and always have been, the key."

    The old gits group, as we call ourselves, arranged a pub meet in Liverpool last Friday to celebrate the end of Covid. We postponed it because three of the six tested positive for Covid. We're all over seventy but the three with Covid only had mild cold symptoms. A triumph for vaccination and boosters.

    It's over, barring the mopping up, unless you're a cowardy-custard about vaccinations, or have other problems.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
    Well, leaving aside the false equivalence such a line would make, actually I would expect him to resign over a parking offence. Just as Harriet Harman should have resigned as solicitor general for her speeding offences, or for that time she failed to stop after an accident.

    If you're right about the line they take though, that might well make matters worse. 'Boris compares Covid to parking on double yellow lines' rather begs the question of why we had so many draconian restrictions.
    Could be that we're both right!
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.

    Being universities, that's just trolling. I hope other teams refuse to play them. This isn't funny: a genuine footballer has been denied the opportunity to play in the team.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078
    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.

    Being universities, that's just trolling. I hope other teams refuse to play them. This isn't funny: a genuine footballer has been denied the opportunity to play in the team.
    There are 6ft tall genuine (ducks, runs) women though.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,153

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
    I would expect him to resign for lying to the House. That is the issue here.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Diet news.


    Quite so. Jockeys and models don't take all that caffeine for recreational purposes
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
    I would expect him to resign for lying to the House. That is the issue here.
    'I made a mistake, I apologise', I expect will be the line. However, you are, Mr M, quite right.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.

    Being universities, that's just trolling. I hope other teams refuse to play them. This isn't funny: a genuine footballer has been denied the opportunity to play in the team.
    Yep but the Mail are on a mission at the moment and it's very unpleasant indeed.

    If we are going down the line of assessing women based on physique then we're on sticky ground. I've worked alongside female colleagues who were at least 6 ft and with strong physical features, as well as pretty obviously high testosterone levels.

    But there are definite changes which take place around puberty.

    I'll say no more here about this. The whole topic is so mired in vitriol and hatred, not just on here I hasten to add, that it's not an appropriate place to discuss. It's nuanced and complex, whatever the binary boneheads like Piers Morgan want to tell everyone.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    Indeed. The Tory USP is economic competence. The “Fuck business” incident seemed like trivial Westminster Bubble detail at the time. It wasn’t. ‘Fuck business’ was the beginning of the end.
    The way a lot of businesses have been behaving, from PO ferries, to PPE contractors, "fuck business" may well be quite a popular slogan.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    edited April 2022
    CD13 said:



    It's over, barring the mopping up

    How many times have we been told that only to be proven wrong? It was Leon's rallying cry before every next surge.

    It's not over. Not yet.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.

    Being universities, that's just trolling. I hope other teams refuse to play them. This isn't funny: a genuine footballer has been denied the opportunity to play in the team.
    There are 6ft tall genuine (ducks, runs) women though.
    Oh well that's OK then my mistake. Variation within classes and variation between classes were the same thing all along and I never noticed, silly me

    Like the article in the independent which explained that because Lia hadn't actually broken the world record she obv had no unfair advantage
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
  • Options

    Good morning one and all. Brighter here, but still below zero outside. At least according to. my weather app.

    Some good points this morning, but I would suggest that while our Govt. may deserve credit for the way it's supported the Ukrainian government and armed forces it is getting very little, and deservedly so, for the way it's dealing with the refugee issue. Like everyone else I don't talk to all that many people, but the words 'shame' and 'shameful' crop up when the official British reaction is discussed.
    While individuals may not be affected, there are friends of friends who have been.

    As others have said, Covid hasn't gone away; however, as Mr J notes people are fed up with the restrictions, but they are still isolating when they find they have it, or indeed test positive although symptom-free.

    Patel should have been dismissed by now
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.

    Being universities, that's just trolling. I hope other teams refuse to play them. This isn't funny: a genuine footballer has been denied the opportunity to play in the team.
    Yep but the Mail are on a mission at the moment and it's very unpleasant indeed.

    If we are going down the line of assessing women based on physique then we're on sticky ground. I've worked alongside female colleagues who were at least 6 ft and with strong physical features, as well as pretty obviously high testosterone levels.

    But there are definite changes which take place around puberty.

    I'll say no more here about this. The whole topic is so mired in vitriol and hatred, not just on here I hasten to add, that it's not an appropriate place to discuss. It's nuanced and complex, whatever the binary boneheads like Piers Morgan want to tell everyone.
    Good piece in The Observer on Trans sports:

    https://twitter.com/ObserverUK/status/1510513076528844807?t=d-RrUcZLfK_rV2EiCLNFmw&s=19
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The solution then is Don't Send 18 Year Old Poorly Trained Conscripts Into Another Country In Breach Of Your Own Country's Laws.

    However we look at this, Russia has acted in such a way that it will be a pariah state for decades. They're back to where they were in the time of Lenin.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078
    edited April 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.

    Being universities, that's just trolling. I hope other teams refuse to play them. This isn't funny: a genuine footballer has been denied the opportunity to play in the team.
    There are 6ft tall genuine (ducks, runs) women though.
    Oh well that's OK then my mistake. Variation within classes and variation between classes were the same thing all along and I never noticed, silly me

    Like the article in the independent which explained that because Lia hadn't actually broken the world record she obv had no unfair advantage
    Just making the point. Heathener, above, rightly says that 'the whole topic is so mired in vitriol and hatred' that one is better off not commenting, even marginally 'humorously' and she's right!
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,597
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
    I would expect him to resign for lying to the House. That is the issue here.
    It's one of them. But since several of his ministers have already lied to the House and got away with it, e.g. Shapps over HS2E, it's slightly less serious than the fact he broke the law.

    It perhaps shouldn't be. It may be a mark of just how far this government's fallen. But it is.
    I'm sure the person responsible for the enforcement of the Ministerial Code will have something to say abo... oh for #£@&?+##'s sake...
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Heathener said:

    CD13 said:



    It's over, barring the mopping up

    How many times have we been told that only to be proven wrong? It was Leon's rallying cry before every next surge.

    It's not over. Not yet.
    There's a 1980s book called The Hot Zone which says it's a true story about a Marburg or ebola outbreak from a lab in Germany. 200 pages of actually quite gripping seat of the pants stuff ending with a successful containment so everyone in Europe doesn't die. There's then a 1 page epilogue which says roughly The same thing happened again about 6 months later but we said Ah fuck it, we aren't going through that again, let's just leave it and hope it fizzles out naturally. It did. The End.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078
    edited April 2022

    Good morning one and all. Brighter here, but still below zero outside. At least according to. my weather app.

    Some good points this morning, but I would suggest that while our Govt. may deserve credit for the way it's supported the Ukrainian government and armed forces it is getting very little, and deservedly so, for the way it's dealing with the refugee issue. Like everyone else I don't talk to all that many people, but the words 'shame' and 'shameful' crop up when the official British reaction is discussed.
    While individuals may not be affected, there are friends of friends who have been.

    As others have said, Covid hasn't gone away; however, as Mr J notes people are fed up with the restrictions, but they are still isolating when they find they have it, or indeed test positive although symptom-free.

    Patel should have been dismissed by now
    Curiously, she was supportive of a constituent known to me who was trying to get Ukrainian relatives over here.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,801
    edited April 2022
    Heathener said:

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    These are all good points.

    The only thing I would want to add though is that I know people who have been pretty dismissive of covid, taking the kind of Leon line on it, who have caught it recently and who have felt really rough. None of them died, it's true, so the vaccines did their job brilliantly but they felt 'awful' and were unable to work for c. 5 to 7 days because of feeling too ill. So I don't think it's just about a requirement to isolate. It still makes a lot of people too ill to work. My ex, my son's father, was pretty cavalier about covid until he got it two weeks ago and has now changed his tune.

    I'm avoiding entering the debate, which is my own bugbear, about the ongoing danger to vulnerable people and the elderly. There's also ongoing concern about the longterm health effects of this. There was a pretty strong warning from Dr Stephen Griffin yesterday. Is this just another doom-monger scientist as the Mail would have us believe? Or should we be just a wee bit more careful? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/covid-warning-uk-faces-very-26619063
    Both my wife and I got Covid and it was bad. Took 2 months for me to make a complete recovery. My wife got a related chest infection whilst recovering and was put on medication - has now been referred to hospital and on the waiting list for an X ray. Hard to tell if it was any worse though, than a pre 2020 'winter bug'. Obviously there is a lot of caution in the medical system about post COVID symptoms because so little is known about them. But I think there is an acceptance post Omicron that it is futile to try and suppress the virus, we are stuck with trying to slow it down, prevent it through vaccination and treat the symptoms - and this is the right course of action.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The solution then is Don't Send 18 Year Old Poorly Trained Conscripts Into Another Country In Breach Of Your Own Country's Laws.

    However we look at this, Russia has acted in such a way that it will be a pariah state for decades. They're back to where they were in the time of Lenin.
    I am not suggesting otherwise. This campaign is a disaster for everyone but there is no doubt at all who is to blame.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    edited April 2022
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The things we see in Bucha, and elsewhere following the Russian retreats, look to me to be part of the complete breakdown of discipline and command by the Russian forces. Not that the Russian officers are likely to be that bothered. After all, is it worse shooting cyclists and shoppers from an APC, or firing a missile at a theatre full of children? One is just a bit more close, but both are crimes.

    The Russian forces were catastrophically defeated and took very heavy casualties in the Kyiv Oblast, and ran amok killing, looting, raping before retreating. The effect will be to harden the resolve of Ukranians in Donbas and Kherson to fight on. It is clear why Mariopol fights on, even a month into the siege.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The things we see in Bucha, and elsewhere following the Russian retreats, look to me to be part of the complete breakdown of discipline and command by the Russian forces. Not that the Russian officers are likely to be that bothered. After all, is it worse shooting cyclists and shoppers from an APC, or firing a missile at a theatre full of children. One is just a bit more close, but both are crimes.

    The Russian forces were catastrophically defeated and took very heavy casualties in the Kyiv Oblast, and ran amok killing, looting, raping before retreating. The effect will be to harden the resolve of Ukranians in Donbas and Kherson to fight on. It is clear why Mariopol fights on, even a month into the siege.
    The officers will not care as this is the way the Russian military acts. They even treat their own troops poorly:

    "In 2019, according to the Russian military prosecutor office situation with dedovshchina is getting worse. Incidents of hazing in the army during the 2019 have increased. 51,000 human rights violations and 9,890 sexual assault cases.[8]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,556
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The solution then is Don't Send 18 Year Old Poorly Trained Conscripts Into Another Country In Breach Of Your Own Country's Laws.

    However we look at this, Russia has acted in such a way that it will be a pariah state for decades. They're back to where they were in the time of Lenin.
    Russia will be a pariah state for about six months, after which the lure of money will become irresistible.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The solution then is Don't Send 18 Year Old Poorly Trained Conscripts Into Another Country In Breach Of Your Own Country's Laws.

    However we look at this, Russia has acted in such a way that it will be a pariah state for decades. They're back to where they were in the time of Lenin.
    Russia will be a pariah state for about six months, after which the lure of money will become irresistible.
    There will be temptations for certain politicians to go back to the 'old' normal - we're already seeing this from some. It is up to the voters to keep them honest. As long as a single square centimetre of Ukraine is in Russian hands, for as long as Putin is in power, any politician who tries to appease this evil, should have pictures of these atrocities placed alongside their election pamphlets.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,006

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The problem is Putin.

    We should not suspend sanctions against Russia until Putin is delivered to the ICC in the Hague. Period.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10679981/Trans-goalkeeper-used-play-mens-football-selected-England-Universities-womens-side.html

    Six foot trans goalkeeper who used to play men's football is now selected for England Universities' women's side

    No amount of testosterone suppression alters the fact that she has an advantage over female-born goalkeepers.

    Being universities, that's just trolling. I hope other teams refuse to play them. This isn't funny: a genuine footballer has been denied the opportunity to play in the team.
    Yep but the Mail are on a mission at the moment and it's very unpleasant indeed.

    If we are going down the line of assessing women based on physique then we're on sticky ground. I've worked alongside female colleagues who were at least 6 ft and with strong physical features, as well as pretty obviously high testosterone levels.

    But there are definite changes which take place around puberty.

    I'll say no more here about this. The whole topic is so mired in vitriol and hatred, not just on here I hasten to add, that it's not an appropriate place to discuss. It's nuanced and complex, whatever the binary boneheads like Piers Morgan want to tell everyone.
    Good piece in The Observer on Trans sports:

    https://twitter.com/ObserverUK/status/1510513076528844807?t=d-RrUcZLfK_rV2EiCLNFmw&s=19
    It is good. I think the non wanker left is seeing sense.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,801
    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    Fair point. But there is so much evidence here, that some of it will stick. The people being executed with the hands tied behind their back is pretty damning. The bigger problem is what court exactly would adjudicate on this? Putin's regime are gangsters and thugs who don't accept the legitimacy of international law and institutions.

    The only strategy might be to just declare the Russian state and everyone associated with it as a terrorist regime. No middle ground. Force people to make a choice. It's civilisation vs barbarism.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The things we see in Bucha, and elsewhere following the Russian retreats, look to me to be part of the complete breakdown of discipline and command by the Russian forces. Not that the Russian officers are likely to be that bothered. After all, is it worse shooting cyclists and shoppers from an APC, or firing a missile at a theatre full of children. One is just a bit more close, but both are crimes.

    The Russian forces were catastrophically defeated and took very heavy casualties in the Kyiv Oblast, and ran amok killing, looting, raping before retreating. The effect will be to harden the resolve of Ukranians in Donbas and Kherson to fight on. It is clear why Mariopol fights on, even a month into the siege.
    Yep, I agree with all of that.

    The Russian forces have proven to be very badly trained and worse led, incapable of bringing their forces to bear in an effective manner and with minimal logistical support. The other pictures coming out from the reconquered areas are the debris of columns of vehicles trapped by the simple expedient of destroying vehicles at either end and then mopped up. This is so basic as to be almost beyond belief. Where are the screens of infantry looking for and flushing out such traps? Why is no one thinking about exit routes before commiting such forces or flanking manouvres? It may well prove that the Ukranian estimates of their casualties are much closer than we thought.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,960

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
    I would expect him to resign for lying to the House. That is the issue here.
    'I made a mistake, I apologise', I expect will be the line. However, you are, Mr M, quite right.
    More like 'I'm concerned and regretful that you made a mistake'.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    kyf_100 said:

    I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?

    All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.

    Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.

    What we are seeing today, as if we hadn't seen enough already, is evidence of war crimes and we cannot in good conscience continue trading with a rogue state.

    It will be painful, and it will cost the west, but Russia needs to be seen as an international pariah. Anything less is letting the murderous bastards get away with it.
    A report from liberated Trostyanets in the east, which was occupied for weeks before being liberated makes it clear that this barbarity is across the whole extent of the Russian invasion.

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/liberated-from-the-russians-a-visit-to-trostyanets-after-the-end-of-the-occupation-a-c088be53-5f6c-4059-8d46-68803276e473

    Of course similar stories have come from occupied Donbas for many years, but have received far less attention. The idea of plebiscites in Russian occupied territory is a sick joke.

    A small, but telling, part of that article that’s shocking was the attitude of the American multinational with a factory there. It’s not just the French putting business ahead of anything else.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Ms Heathener,

    "I've worked alongside female colleagues who were at least 6 ft and with strong physical features, as well as pretty obviously high testosterone levels."

    Testosterone levels between normal males and normal females don't overlap ... eg

    Testosterone | North Bristol NHS Trusthttps://www.nbt.nhs.uk › requesting › test-information
    Reference range: Adults: Male 8.7 - 29 nmol/L, Female 0.2 - 1.7 nmol/L

    As Mr Cole says, there is variation within reference ranges, but testosterone levels aren't like height or blood glucose levels.

    Mr Z, I remember Marburg well. I was working with experimental animals at the time and they were also susceptible.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    Barnesian said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The problem is Putin.

    We should not suspend sanctions against Russia until Putin is delivered to the ICC in the Hague. Period.
    I think I would want to see more members of the current Russian government than just Putin in the dock at The Hague. I very much doubt if this is all on one man.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,335
    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    I think there is a substantial chance of a 1997 victory, but more likely the equally unusual larger majority going to large opposition, but not the huge numbers of 1997. You could see labour getting a double digit seat majority.
    There’s very little time left for things to noticeably improve in the economy. There will have been 14 or 15 years of Tory rule.

    What could change that picture? Johnson gets evicted, perhaps. Covid slipping into the background properly, not sure that works.
    Starmer lacks the umph that Blair brought. He has also not yet set out the positive side (were not Tory is not enough, really).

    On Covid, as you have said, we will not agree. I think the public are sclerotic here. They are happily living their normal lives, going out, working, etc and for the most part have now had Covid, and recovered, and so it’s lost the fear for them. The worst has happened. They avoided it for two years and them bam. A bad day or days, then better.
    I wonder if you have had Covid yet? Getting it and recovering has definitely changed the opinions of some of my more wary colleagues. And never forget the ability of the media to paint what story it wants. The reason hospitals are struggling is that they have Covid patients at the same time as trying to do everything else, including moving on the backlog. But if the bbc runs a few reports of the ons and some stressed hospitals, and then you ask people if they are worried about Covid, some will be.
    I also have issues about what the ons is actually measuring right now. They use PCR which is very sensitive and pretty accurate, but it also can be picking up people who have had Covid in the last few weeks. I’m not sure how many of the 1 in 13 are I’ll.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The things we see in Bucha, and elsewhere following the Russian retreats, look to me to be part of the complete breakdown of discipline and command by the Russian forces. Not that the Russian officers are likely to be that bothered. After all, is it worse shooting cyclists and shoppers from an APC, or firing a missile at a theatre full of children. One is just a bit more close, but both are crimes.

    The Russian forces were catastrophically defeated and took very heavy casualties in the Kyiv Oblast, and ran amok killing, looting, raping before retreating. The effect will be to harden the resolve of Ukranians in Donbas and Kherson to fight on. It is clear why Mariopol fights on, even a month into the siege.
    The officers will not care as this is the way the Russian military acts. They even treat their own troops poorly:

    "In 2019, according to the Russian military prosecutor office situation with dedovshchina is getting worse. Incidents of hazing in the army during the 2019 have increased. 51,000 human rights violations and 9,890 sexual assault cases.[8]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina
    Certainly so. The whole point of basic military training is to turn raw recruits into willing killers, and overcome their existing cultural inhibitions. It doesn't seem to be too difficult to do this, but what is difficult is to control them afterwards.

    In general post Vietnam western armies have understood how to direct and contain that violence. There are continued incidents of course, including British troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, and even in training in Kenya. In Russia, as with some other nations the military command doesn't even seem willing to try to contain the mayhem, indeed often relishes it.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    darkage said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think it unlikely the government will u-turn on free tests, if only because limiting testing will itself dramatically reduce the official numbers of cases and that will reduce the political effect of rising infections.

    Well ... will it though?

    That might have worked a century ago but nowadays with media awareness? It's not just anecdotal, but problems in industries like travel where infections are causing chaos (Dover, Heathrow) as well as schools and NHS trusts. My son's school had to shut the whole of last week because there was so much covid - they ran out of teachers. The scientists may get ridiculed but studies like ZOE, which the Gov't have pulled the plug on, are still reporting and they have a current daily infection estimate at 337,000. https://covid.joinzoe.com/

    I think it's an incredibly dangerous political route to go down to think you can pull the wool over people's eyes and, effectively, gag the news. It smacks to me of the last vestiges of a party losing power, not to mention being rather Putinesque.

    The right-wingers (I know it annoys people if I call them Far Right) are so hell-bent on pretending this thing has gone away that they've lost all sense of proportion and perspective.
    The issue will always be capacity in the health care system. If things get bad in this respect, then the restrictions will come back. This is what a majority of people will accept.

    I don't know about the "chaos" you describe - is it the disease that is causing chaos, or the requirement to test and isolate?

    Also: the situation in Ukraine puts Covid in to context. The world doesn't stop turning and cannot be put on hold because of Covid.
    These are all good points.

    The only thing I would want to add though is that I know people who have been pretty dismissive of covid, taking the kind of Leon line on it, who have caught it recently and who have felt really rough. None of them died, it's true, so the vaccines did their job brilliantly but they felt 'awful' and were unable to work for c. 5 to 7 days because of feeling too ill. So I don't think it's just about a requirement to isolate. It still makes a lot of people too ill to work. My ex, my son's father, was pretty cavalier about covid until he got it two weeks ago and has now changed his tune.

    I'm avoiding entering the debate, which is my own bugbear, about the ongoing danger to vulnerable people and the elderly. There's also ongoing concern about the longterm health effects of this. There was a pretty strong warning from Dr Stephen Griffin yesterday. Is this just another doom-monger scientist as the Mail would have us believe? Or should we be just a wee bit more careful? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/covid-warning-uk-faces-very-26619063
    Both my wife and I got Covid and it was bad. Took 2 months for me to make a complete recovery. My wife got a related chest infection whilst recovering and was put on medication - has now been referred to hospital and on the waiting list for an X ray. Hard to tell if it was any worse though, than a pre 2020 'winter bug'. Obviously there is a lot of caution in the medical system about post COVID symptoms because so little is known about them. But I think there is an acceptance post Omicron that it is futile to try and suppress the virus, we are stuck with trying to slow it down, prevent it through vaccination and treat the symptoms - and this is the right course of action.
    Visited Sainsbury for the first time for a couple of weeks yesterday after recovering from Covid - mask-wearing was down to 30%. But there's no doubt that it's a real epidemic now in the everyday sense of the word - it's all over the place. In the absence of much national guidance (I was actually surprised to be toldf to self-isolate for 10 days by the NHS app - if that's the Government position, I missed it), I guess that most people are trying to be a bit cautious where it doesn't interfere with their enjoyment but otherwise just hoping for the best.

    There's a particular problem for those employers whose staff can work fairly effectively from home. We are resuming going to the office 2 days a week from tomorrow. There is considerable reluctance among some staff - colleagues who I've spoken to would prefer a model of converting the office into a place to meet, with lots of separate areas and hot desks for people to comre in when there's a reason for a meeting, rather than routine presenteeism. "What's the point of routinely coming in and then having staff go sick?" is the argument. The counter-argument is that we need to attempt to return to a degree of normality sometime, and putting it off further won't make it any easier. Certainly a return to 5 days/week is out of the question for the forseeable future.

    What I don't understand is why we're taking our foot off the vaccination pedal. Why aren't we giving new boosters with the same enthusiasm that was so successful last year?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The are indeed hideous and shocking. My only slight reservation is that when you have lots of morale boosting stories showing everyone up to old grannies making molotov cocktails and saying that they are willing to fight for their homeland the boundaries between combatants and civilians inevitably becomes seriously blurred. Evil though the Russians are the Ukrainians are seeking to have it both ways here.
    I disagree, an so does history. The Oradour-sur-Glane massacre was not excused because of the French partisans, nor were any of the other similar atrocities.

    History will write this similarly.
    It certainly doesn't excuse people executed with hands tied behind their backs as we saw yesterday. That is a war crime, plain and simple and the crime is murder.

    But if you are a 18 year old, poorly trained conscript in an armoured vehicle that seems to have a target painted on it, expecting a lethal ambush at any moment it is not hard to understand how everything that moves looks like a target.
    The things we see in Bucha, and elsewhere following the Russian retreats, look to me to be part of the complete breakdown of discipline and command by the Russian forces. Not that the Russian officers are likely to be that bothered. After all, is it worse shooting cyclists and shoppers from an APC, or firing a missile at a theatre full of children. One is just a bit more close, but both are crimes.

    The Russian forces were catastrophically defeated and took very heavy casualties in the Kyiv Oblast, and ran amok killing, looting, raping before retreating. The effect will be to harden the resolve of Ukranians in Donbas and Kherson to fight on. It is clear why Mariopol fights on, even a month into the siege.
    The officers will not care as this is the way the Russian military acts. They even treat their own troops poorly:

    "In 2019, according to the Russian military prosecutor office situation with dedovshchina is getting worse. Incidents of hazing in the army during the 2019 have increased. 51,000 human rights violations and 9,890 sexual assault cases.[8]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina
    Certainly so. The whole point of basic military training is to turn raw recruits into willing killers, and overcome their existing cultural inhibitions. It doesn't seem to be too difficult to do this, but what is difficult is to control them afterwards.

    In general post Vietnam western armies have understood how to direct and contain that violence. There are continued incidents of course, including British troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, and even in training in Kenya. In Russia, as with some other nations the military command doesn't even seem willing to try to contain the mayhem, indeed often relishes it.
    Well yes, that's exactly the point. It's down to training, and for the Russians, hazing is part of the training. Even to the point where recruits are sexually abused or killed. It's a step beyond anything we would recognise as 'training', even with some of our problems in training.

    Yet as we've seen by the results, it doesn't work. The Russians are doing poorly, in part, because of their training regime.
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    TazTaz Posts: 11,334
    How long before forecourts run dry and there is widespread panic buying

    More refineries blockaded today.

    Police doing nothing as usual.

    https://twitter.com/juststop_oil/status/1510521355455897603?s=21&t=dClFhmnEetCxvV-jcTbB8Q
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    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,846
    Fishing said:

    It looks to me as if this pandemic still has a bit to run. I am all for freedom returning and we should be aware that the damage of lockdowns on public health is also damaging.

    It does seem as if the UK government have gone a bit too far too quickly. I am not sure they are being very sensible.

    I'm minded to agree with you, but there are dangers for the government whatever they did. People do not want to be locked down, or particularly careful any more. The other day we had a school play, and it was wonderful to get everyone in a packed school hall once more. And I mean wonderful. Only four people (me included) wore masks, but I certainly do not condemn those who did not.

    The party mess has not helped, but even before that, people were fed up with the restrictions. I certainly was - and I'll be taking the little 'un to as many places as possible this Easter. I'll be wearing a mask in busy places, though ...

    Then there are the economic dangers of having more restrictions, which should not be underplayed given the economic problems heading out way.
    I went into M & S yesterday and to be honest was amazed at how few were wearing masks, it was almost like we were back pre covid

    Recently all our family apart from my wife and I have had covid but it really was like a bad cold

    We are going through the change from pandemic to endemic and there will be bumps in the road but the 4th jabs are now underway and we do need to trust the vaccine

    I would also suggest it would be very difficult to reimpose restrictions in the absence of a new more dangerous variant
    I think that's spot on. Also there's not much evidence across countries that those with strict restrictions have done better than those without. So if restrictions are hugely expensive and don't do much good, why bother?

    Vaccines are, and always have been, the key.
    There is good evidence across countries that restrictions made a huge difference, e.g. this paper on the failure in Sweden: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-022-01097-5

    Vaccines are hugely important, so let’s do more to improve our vaccination rates. We’ve taken our foot off the pedal there.

    As before, there is plenty we can do to reduce transmission without huge economic costs.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,847
    .

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?

    All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.

    Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.

    The Poles gave us Copernicus.


    And Chopin.

    And one of my primary school teachers.
    John III Sobieski, the man who finally turned back the expanding Ottoman Empire at the Battle of Vienna.

    Ukraine gave us Khrushchev - for good or for ill - and a case could be made for Trotsky and Gorbachev as well.
    I should have mentioned Joseph Conrad and Sergei Prokofiev.
    Amazing chap Conrad. He was pals with both Neil Munro, the author of the comedy classic Para Handy, and Cunninghame Graham, the Liberal MP who went on to become the first socialist MP in the Commons and helped found both the Labour Party and then the Scottish National Party.
    Is Conrad the greatest novelist to write in a language not native to him ?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    So we’re still suckling on Putins Diesel, looking for loopholes for our own sanctions.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60948439
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,791
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    I think the bigger difference is that John Major was seen as un-sleazy and a model of marital fidelity, author of the “Back to Basics” campaign, while Johnson is none of the above - so, to an extent, “sleaze” is priced in. I think British voters get more annoyed by hypocrisy than anything else - which is why Labour’s “One rule for them, another for the rest of us” is so dangerous. In general I think the HoC (on all sides) has grown less sleazy as sunlight has been let in on practices and they’ve replaced an incompetent and a pompous bully with a reasonably decent speaker.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,820
    Barnesian said:

    These scenes out of Ukraine are hideous.

    And we must remember that Putin's aims are clear: he wants all the Baltic states, and perhaps even Poland, under his thumb. We can sit in our nice, warm homes and say: "Oh, he won't do it!", but it's clear he wants to. By military means or subversion, he will try.

    This evil needs stopping, now. Russia needs to lose, and the Russian public needs to know the evils that have been done in their name. If Russia can claim a 'win' in Ukraine, then they'll go for more in a few years.

    And shame on those who sought to excuse Russia, or blame us for their evils. Or worse, blame the Ukrainians for the evil that has been unleashed upon them.

    Can we start by suspending all the MPs who signed the StW petition from parliament?

    The problem is Putin.

    We should not suspend sanctions against Russia until Putin is delivered to the ICC in the Hague. Period.
    I thought that too, but I’m increasingly convinced the problem is Russia. This is bigger than Putin.

    The killings look coordinated and preordained. Public support for the war in Russia is high. Thousands of officials and military from the top down to junior officers are happily carrying out a campaign of terror.

    If Putin goes there are plenty of ultra-nationalists ready and waiting to “exact revenge” on their former colonies.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,960

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    When I take a step back and look at the state of things it is so reminiscent of 1992-7.

    I think we are underestimating Labour's chances in 2024 and next month will be a bad one for the tories.

    Things could not be more different today compared with 1992-97. Just look at what inflation was like back then...

    It's an irony that the Conservatives in 1997 bequeathed to Labour a country in rude economic health and yet the tories took a hammering. But if you look at the polls carefully you can clearly see that Black Wednesday and Britain's exit from the ERM busted the Conservatives: the terrible events of that day when interest rates briefly went over 20% meant that the Conservatives were no longer trusted on the economy.

    2022. Snap.

    They're finished.
    I disagree - and I really hope Labour don't get complacent, as they often were in 2010-15.

    The causes of the Conservative's malaise in 92-97 were different. Black Wednesday was a totally self-inflicted mess. Sleaze seems less of an issue now. The problems facing the country are mostly external: higher fuel prices caused by the war; food prices by the war; and Covid on top.

    Only Brexit was in our hands, and I don't see that as being a major cause of our problems.

    In addition, some of the energy price increase can be put down to the cost of green policies, which the public are in favour of.

    IMV external effects are less of a government than internal ones.
    There I disagree. Sleaze is a major and ongoing issue now. Boris Johnson has in effect just become the first PM to be found guilty of a crime while in office - literally, in his own back garden. Even if he's never fined because the Met are even more cowardly and corrupt than the government, that's big. Compared to Cash for Questions, it's huuuge.

    It may currently have slightly less public cut through, which is not the same thing.
    You may well be right. One point though: has he been found guilty of a crime yet?
    The point is that others who committed an identical offence have just been fined. That's an implicit admission that what was happening was illegal. It removes the ambiguity about 'laws' vs 'guidelines' that @Cyclefree has been explaining to us with exemplary patience.

    In a way, it will now look worse if he isn't fined, as that will imply that he's above the law.
    Neither obvious pathway is good for the PM now.

    If he's not fined, it won't exonerate him in the public mind, and will make it look like BoJo is above the law. I'd happily bet a shiny sixpence that he does believe that, but it will be a terrible look.

    If he is fined, well... he's guilty, isn't he? In such an unambiguous way that even he and his backbenchers can't just ignore.

    Unless he goes for a "no criminal record, paid charge so that none of us are distracted by trivia about the past, when we need to vaccinate Ukraine."

    Or some other blog of grease that I can't think of because I'm not as brazen as Big Greased Piglet.
    "You wouldn't expect him to resign for a parking ticket, would you?" will I, suspect, be the line.
    I would expect him to resign for lying to the House. That is the issue here.
    It's one of them. But since several of his ministers have already lied to the House and got away with it, e.g. Shapps over HS2E, it's slightly less serious than the fact he broke the law.

    It perhaps shouldn't be. It may be a mark of just how far this government's fallen. But it is.
    I'm sure the person responsible for the enforcement of the Ministerial Code will have something to say abo... oh for #£@&?+##'s sake...
    On that topic, Mr Cummings has weighed in. He does have a point about the unfairness of prosecuting junior staff but letting the bosses go scot free.

    https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1510184989400477697
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842

    It looks to me as if this pandemic still has a bit to run. I am all for freedom returning and we should be aware that the damage of lockdowns on public health is also damaging.

    It does seem as if the UK government have gone a bit too far too quickly. I am not sure they are being very sensible.

    I'm minded to agree with you, but there are dangers for the government whatever they did. People do not want to be locked down, or particularly careful any more. The other day we had a school play, and it was wonderful to get everyone in a packed school hall once more. And I mean wonderful. Only four people (me included) wore masks, but I certainly do not condemn those who did not.

    The party mess has not helped, but even before that, people were fed up with the restrictions. I certainly was - and I'll be taking the little 'un to as many places as possible this Easter. I'll be wearing a mask in busy places, though ...

    Then there are the economic dangers of having more restrictions, which should not be underplayed given the economic problems heading out way.
    As has long been the case, there’s lots that can be done to tackle COVID rates apart from lockdowns and other economically dangerous restrictions. Constantly jumping to “oh no we can’t have lockdowns” is unhelpful and a bit silly.

    We can encourage more (and better) mask wearing. This has very little impact on the economy and is effective. We can do better at test, trace and isolate: make testing easy, support engagement with tracing, stress the importance of isolating, and give people adequate support to isolate. Improve vaccination rates. Be more flexible about what activities need to be face-to-face and when we can stick with virtual meetings. We need to tackle a culture of presenteeism.

    There are economic dangers in having large swathes of the workforce off sick, as well as the obvious health risks.
    Also passive control methods like attention to ventilation, filtration, biosecurity in health and social care settings, epidemiological surveillance etc. Lockdowns and masks are not the only control measures, and indeed not the best ones. They should only be used when system collapse is imminent, and it isn't at present. "Living with Covid" doesn't mean ignoring it.

    Omicron is pretty miserable to have, but now clearly less severe than original covid (though that wasn't obvious in December). This is in part because of its upper rather than lower respiratory tract nature. Unfortunately that location is also why systemic antibodies are less effective in preventing transmission and infection, as antibodies are much less a part of immunity in the upper tract. This is why we are seeing quite a lot of second Omicron infections already. It just goes round and round.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125

    The little 'un is booked in for his jab on Tuesday morning. He's keen for it, so my idea of visiting the toyshop afterwards wasn't actually needed. We'll still go. :)

    There doesn't seem to be much talk about the opening up of jabs for 5-12 year olds on here.

    Because it is pointless, far more risk from the man than covid for young children
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    Sophie Ridge on Sky has just said the EU have spent 18 billion euros since 24th Feb on buying Russian gas and the the rouble
    has recovered all of its value because of that

    I just do not know how this can be addressed short of cutting off Russian gas supplies, which to be fair is not practical
This discussion has been closed.