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Sunak still favourite for next CON leader but only a 20% chance – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    This is Jamie Wallis MP's full statement.

    One distinctive thing is that he does not say "I am trans"; he says "I want to be trans" - far more nuanced than is being suggested.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
    Just want to get my head around that logic. So if a previous PM (or anyone come to that) does something wrong (for instance murder) that is ok if a precedent has been set and they got away with it.
    It wasn't OK at the time, and Blair is rightly mistrusted, and in some quarters despised, by his erstwhile supporters for just that reason - and it probably helped get Corbyn as leader, so Labour paid a hefty price, too.

    And it certainly doesn't justify continuing to lie to the House of Commons and the country.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-embarrassed-by-friendly-message-to-evgeny-lebedev-on-peerage-z7wvtx7dj

    In the interest of transparency Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t text Russian Oligarchs to congratulate them on their election to the HoL, he tables parliamentary motions for them to be sanctioned. And has done so for 14 years.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited March 2022
    This is a big move by Poland. And it throws down the gauntlet to their neighbours, Germany:

    Poland in the EU@PLPermRepEU
    Prime Minister @MorawieckiM:


    We are presenting the most radical plan in Europe to shun Russian oil, gas and coal.

    We will impose a total embargo on Russian coal in April, at the latest in May. Furthermore, we will do our best to abandon Russian oil & gas by the end of the year.


    https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1509113233935896577
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Lots of people seem to be making some pretty wild assumptions about Jamie Wallis' identity on the basis of his statement. As far as I can tell, all he's actually said is he has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and wants to be considered trans, all of which is uncontentious. Let's wait to see what he has to say about whether and at what point he considers himself a woman before getting carried away, maybe? Or is there another source on this I haven't seen yet?

    On another point, is he the first out trans MP in the Commons?

    Jamie Wallis would be appear to be the first trans MP in the commons. There was a Labour trans candidate who stood in East Worthing and Shoreham in 2017 who got relatively close and then fell out with the party. Also a trans LD candidate in Chippenham in 2017 and 2019.
    Thank you.

    By the by, the notion that Wallis' continued presence in the Conservative party is going to cause them difficulties on this issue is let's say, somewhat hopeful. If anything, the reverse is more likely - potentially much easier to gain credibility on their position if Wallis backs it.

    People seem to forget: the Conservative party is not anti-trans, trans rights activists do not speak for all trans people, and one can be pro-trans without endorsing everything said activists say they want.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs (if any) of his sexual activities Wallis; business activities, according to Wikipedia, seem to be a bit questionable.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    MattW said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
    He made a knowledge and belief statement on the basis of questionable evidence. Not the same thing.
    That is also the case for Boris alleged "lying to the Queen" wrt the Prorogation of Parliament. AIUI BJ was following advice form legal officers.

    Ironically those accusing him of lying don't seem to have any problem lying about it themselves - if my previous para is accurate, which I believe it is.
    Come on, the legal officers were his appointees who would have been replaced if they had not gone along with it.

    It amazes me how much leeway many on here give the powerful to justify their actions.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169

    This is a big move by Poland. And it throws down the gauntlet to their neighbours, Germany:

    Poland in the EU@PLPermRepEU
    Prime Minister @MorawieckiM:


    We are presenting the most radical plan in Europe to shun Russian oil, gas and coal.

    We will impose a total embargo on Russian coal in April, at the latest in May. Furthermore, we will do our best to abandon Russian oil & gas by the end of the year.


    https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1509113233935896577

    Britain should replicate this. We are economically well placed to do so as we have low dependency on Russian oil and gas. But that should a. encourage some others ( though probably not the heavily dependent Germany and Italy), b. blunt any bullying Russian "reprisals" against Poland.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the Czech Republic follows. Despite their big political differences with Poland they seem to have been in lockstep on Putin.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited March 2022

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-embarrassed-by-friendly-message-to-evgeny-lebedev-on-peerage-z7wvtx7dj

    In the interest of transparency Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t text Russian Oligarchs to congratulate them on their election to the HoL, he tables parliamentary motions for them to be sanctioned. And has done so for 14 years.

    Yes, Starmer has overreached himself here and is understandably open to criticism (instead of maybe just arguing that is no longer appropriate for Lebedev to have a peerage now and not trying to make political capital out of it).
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
    Nonsense. He either believed it at the time or he lied but we didn't know it.

    Whereas Boris lying is known.
    The Tory leader at the time was gung-ho for the war, and IIRC didn't need many excuses or justifications.
    He did qualify that by saying it was on the back of the information presented to him by the Blair govt at the time.
    Fair point. Charles Kennedy had more common sense.
    That was Michael Howard
    The Tories cannot get away with a wholesale rewrite of history.

    The vote to authorise British troops which took place in the House of Commons on 18th March 2003 was as follows:

    Aye: 412, of which 254 Labour, 146 Conservative, 6 UUP, 5 DUP, 1 Independent Conservative
    No: 149, of which 54 Liberal Democrats, 5 SNP, 4 Plaid, 1 SDLP, 1 Conservative, 1 Independent Health Concern and 84 Labour rebels.
    Abstentions 84, of which 17 Conservative.

    The Conservatives were even more enthusiastic about the war than Labour. That is simply a statement of fact.

    Charles Kennedy was pilloried by the right wing press, but he was the only party leader who had the genuine courage of his principles, and with the benefit of hindsight we can see that he was also right.
    Personally I may well have voted for the war still today, as without it Saddam Hussein would still be in power. Charles Kennedy opposed the war and fair enough many MPs did, not just LDs.

    However Blair did not make the argument solely on removing Saddam, he made it on WMD to get Labour backbenchers on board and on that he lied. Yet despite that lie which took us into war he remained in power and thus set a precedent future PMs do not automatically need to resign if they lie either
    So your point is? Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the iraq war, you seem to imply that because one party lies, then it is OK for any party to lie and that no one should have to resign or take responsibility if they are caught in a lie. That is a pretty contemptible position, if I may say so.

    Lies are not good politics, and if we create a political system that thinks its OK to lie with impunity, pretty soon you end up with Putinism.
    Well it was Blair who set the precedent that PMs do not resign if they lie. Labour were happy to keep him in post so a bit rich and hypocritical of Labour supporters to demand Tories remove Boris now
    I hold no brief for Blair, and have never voted Labour, but I do not beleive that he beleived he was lying. Indeed in his reponse to the Chilcot inquiry he says: "I did not mislead this country. I made the decision in good faith and I believe it is better we took that decision. I acknowledge the mistakes and accept responsibility for them".

    Unfortunately I have much less confidence about the current Conservative government.
    "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool" (RPF)

    Just because Blair fooled himself first does not mean that he is exonerated from the charge of lying.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Cookie said:

    This is truly groundbreaking, the UK’s first MP to share that they are trans.

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1509071412950179841

    Worth reading statement.

    The most discombobulating thing about this is that an MP 'hooked up with someone I met online'.

    Hard to say this without appearing sniffy and hopelessly old-fashioned, but I would have thought MPs would have got that sort of thing out of their systems long before becoming MPs.

    I felt just as uncomfortable when I read about Dehenna Davison's internet dating.
    I came across her on Tinder a few years back. We didn’t match, unfortunately.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TimS said:

    This is a big move by Poland. And it throws down the gauntlet to their neighbours, Germany:

    Poland in the EU@PLPermRepEU
    Prime Minister @MorawieckiM:


    We are presenting the most radical plan in Europe to shun Russian oil, gas and coal.

    We will impose a total embargo on Russian coal in April, at the latest in May. Furthermore, we will do our best to abandon Russian oil & gas by the end of the year.


    https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1509113233935896577

    Britain should replicate this. We are economically well placed to do so as we have low dependency on Russian oil and gas. But that should a. encourage some others ( though probably not the heavily dependent Germany and Italy), b. blunt any bullying Russian "reprisals" against Poland.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the Czech Republic follows. Despite their big political differences with Poland they seem to have been in lockstep on Putin.
    I think we already have, oil by the end of this month and gas by the end of the year. We don't import any coal from Russia.
  • Cambo oil and gas field licence has been extended for two years
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    TimS said:

    This is a big move by Poland. And it throws down the gauntlet to their neighbours, Germany:

    Poland in the EU@PLPermRepEU
    Prime Minister @MorawieckiM:


    We are presenting the most radical plan in Europe to shun Russian oil, gas and coal.

    We will impose a total embargo on Russian coal in April, at the latest in May. Furthermore, we will do our best to abandon Russian oil & gas by the end of the year.


    https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1509113233935896577

    Britain should replicate this. We are economically well placed to do so as we have low dependency on Russian oil and gas. But that should a. encourage some others ( though probably not the heavily dependent Germany and Italy), b. blunt any bullying Russian "reprisals" against Poland.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the Czech Republic follows. Despite their big political differences with Poland they seem to have been in lockstep on Putin.
    If things get any worse for Russia in Ukraine, then they might well try to cut off gas supplies until military support for Ukraine is stopped.

    There comes a point where the lost income will no longer stop them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    An article that outlines what Russia might be facing in terms of personnel--too few soldiers at hand to reinforce their efforts in Ukraine quickly. Helps put its finger on the heart of the dilemma facing Putin.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1509114218011889665
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited March 2022

    MattW said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
    He made a knowledge and belief statement on the basis of questionable evidence. Not the same thing.
    That is also the case for Boris alleged "lying to the Queen" wrt the Prorogation of Parliament. AIUI BJ was following advice form legal officers.

    Ironically those accusing him of lying don't seem to have any problem lying about it themselves - if my previous para is accurate, which I believe it is.
    Come on, the legal officers were his appointees who would have been replaced if they had not gone along with it.

    It amazes me how much leeway many on here give the powerful to justify their actions.
    Legal officers with a professional duty to give objective and professional advice.

    I don't think "I believe he's a bad 'un, therefore I am justified in assuming abuse, corruption and ..." adds up to much, tbh.

    Far too much opposition politics at present is based on giving as wide a circulation as possible to unproven smears. It does not in the end help those doing the smearing.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Nah. Time is on our side.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    interesting thread on future of western military spending. Perhaps Sunak was right to hold off additional billions at this time?


    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    This might be counter-intuitive, but the mediocre (to be kind) performance of the Russian military in Kyiv means that Europe and the USA do not need to rush out and spend billions more right away on their militaries. It means they have a window to plan for the future.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1508888821005529094

    I'd have thought re-armament would be high on Putin's agenda. How long did it take his mentor? Six years, including reoccupation of the Rhineland, which we were content to overlook at the time.

    As Putin no doubt says to his well-wishers, "I am in blood stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er."
    There are so many angles to this. Firstly, military equipment nowadays is much more complex than it was eighty years ago, and supply chains are massive and often international - so re-equipping can be expensive and difficult.

    On the other hand, much of Russia's problems seem to come from doctrine, leadership and training. This is easier to fix - as Ukraine has done after they solidly lost in 2014.

    I do wonder how much Russia's military training and setup is actually a result of a system that does not want a military that can challenge the leadership? If that's the case, it won't change, and the military will be fighting with one hand behind its back whatever equipment they have.

    What Russia needs to do is look at Ukraine: how have they gone from being beaten eight years ago, to a much better position today? Some of it is western equipment, but much of it will be training and doctrinal changes within the government and military.
    That's the problem with a tyranny. Good armed forces, led by people who are allowed to think for themselves, can be a refuge for enemies of the regime, and they can overthrow it.

    It's why Stalin preferred incompetent yes men as generals, until that threatened his regime with defeat.
  • https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1509092404061687810

    And then this, FFS this is pathetic.

    So women can have a penis?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577
    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cicero said:

    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
    Nonsense. He either believed it at the time or he lied but we didn't know it.

    Whereas Boris lying is known.
    The Tory leader at the time was gung-ho for the war, and IIRC didn't need many excuses or justifications.
    He did qualify that by saying it was on the back of the information presented to him by the Blair govt at the time.
    Fair point. Charles Kennedy had more common sense.
    That was Michael Howard
    The Tories cannot get away with a wholesale rewrite of history.

    The vote to authorise British troops which took place in the House of Commons on 18th March 2003 was as follows:

    Aye: 412, of which 254 Labour, 146 Conservative, 6 UUP, 5 DUP, 1 Independent Conservative
    No: 149, of which 54 Liberal Democrats, 5 SNP, 4 Plaid, 1 SDLP, 1 Conservative, 1 Independent Health Concern and 84 Labour rebels.
    Abstentions 84, of which 17 Conservative.

    The Conservatives were even more enthusiastic about the war than Labour. That is simply a statement of fact.

    Charles Kennedy was pilloried by the right wing press, but he was the only party leader who had the genuine courage of his principles, and with the benefit of hindsight we can see that he was also right.
    Personally I may well have voted for the war still today, as without it Saddam Hussein would still be in power. Charles Kennedy opposed the war and fair enough many MPs did, not just LDs.

    However Blair did not make the argument solely on removing Saddam, he made it on WMD to get Labour backbenchers on board and on that he lied. Yet despite that lie which took us into war he remained in power and thus set a precedent future PMs do not automatically need to resign if they lie either
    So your point is? Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the iraq war, you seem to imply that because one party lies, then it is OK for any party to lie and that no one should have to resign or take responsibility if they are caught in a lie. That is a pretty contemptible position, if I may say so.

    Lies are not good politics, and if we create a political system that thinks its OK to lie with impunity, pretty soon you end up with Putinism.
    Well it was Blair who set the precedent that PMs do not resign if they lie. Labour were happy to keep him in post so a bit rich and hypocritical of Labour supporters to demand Tories remove Boris now
    I hold no brief for Blair, and have never voted Labour, but I do not believe that he believed he was lying. Indeed in his reponse to the Chilcot inquiry he says: "I did not mislead this country. I made the decision in good faith and I believe it is better we took that decision. I acknowledge the mistakes and accept responsibility for them".

    Unfortunately I have much less confidence about the current Conservative government.
    He wasn't as barefaced a liar as Johnson, and it's true that both US and UK misjudged Saddam's intentions and capabilities, but to say that he wasn't at the very least deeply misleading with the WMD stuff is wrong, IMO.

    And launching a war of aggression requires a far greater justification than mere suspicion. On that basis, even Putin could claim he had some shred of justification.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Labour’s @wesstreeting says Boris Johnson “knowingly lied to the country, to the house or commons and the Queen”.
    But he says he’ll probably lead the Tories into the next election because “Tory MPs are complicit in it”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1509068291683270662

    Several PB Tories - @HYUFD being the leading one - simply refuse to engage on the issue that their party leader lies and lies and lies. Any party with basic morality and decency wold have removed him regardless of whether he is seen as an "election winner" or not.

    Would any previous Tory leader have brazenly lied to parliament and said "what lies" despite the indisputable proof of their lies? "You're just anti-Tory" is the whine, but wold May have behaved like this? Cameron? Howard? Thatcher?

    Previously you could argue that parties deserve to lose power because they have run out of ideas and have poor policies. I can't remember one like this that thinks the rule of law and the rules of parliament do not apply to them.
    Of course Tony Blair lied to take us into war. Yet he remained PM and Labour leader for 4 years after the Iraq War
    Would you like to address your leader lying to parliament?
    Tony Blair lied to Parliament by saying Saddam Hussein had WMD as a reason for war.

    The precedent that PMs do not resign automatically for lying was therefore set well before Boris
    He made a knowledge and belief statement on the basis of questionable evidence. Not the same thing.
    That is also the case for Boris alleged "lying to the Queen" wrt the Prorogation of Parliament. AIUI BJ was following advice form legal officers.

    Ironically those accusing him of lying don't seem to have any problem lying about it themselves - if my previous para is accurate, which I believe it is.
    Come on, the legal officers were his appointees who would have been replaced if they had not gone along with it.

    It amazes me how much leeway many on here give the powerful to justify their actions.
    Legal officers with a professional duty to give objective advice.
    A professional duty does not guarantee anything. Judge what we see not what should happen.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1509092404061687810

    And then this, FFS this is pathetic.

    So women can have a penis?

    Unless you can show me otherwise, I believe you are misgendering Wallis, who has never claimed to be a woman.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Gate Tim Curry thought that too.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169

    TimS said:

    This is a big move by Poland. And it throws down the gauntlet to their neighbours, Germany:

    Poland in the EU@PLPermRepEU
    Prime Minister @MorawieckiM:


    We are presenting the most radical plan in Europe to shun Russian oil, gas and coal.

    We will impose a total embargo on Russian coal in April, at the latest in May. Furthermore, we will do our best to abandon Russian oil & gas by the end of the year.


    https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1509113233935896577

    Britain should replicate this. We are economically well placed to do so as we have low dependency on Russian oil and gas. But that should a. encourage some others ( though probably not the heavily dependent Germany and Italy), b. blunt any bullying Russian "reprisals" against Poland.

    Wouldn't be surprised if the Czech Republic follows. Despite their big political differences with Poland they seem to have been in lockstep on Putin.
    If things get any worse for Russia in Ukraine, then they might well try to cut off gas supplies until military support for Ukraine is stopped.

    There comes a point where the lost income will no longer stop them.
    If we're going into total war, then total economic war is a pretty strong field to fight on for the West. We've already got form locking out two of the largest oil producers, Venezuela and Iran (and pre-2003, Iraq).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    New Yougov finds 40% of voters overall and 58% of Conservative voters support the death penalty.

    Over 50% of voters back the death penalty for multiple murders, terrorism and child killers

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1509113083142279168?s=20&t=IMSmHE-SfU3EnWfLmsrWUw
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
  • HYUFD said:

    New Yougov finds 40% of voters overall and 58% of Conservative voters support the death penalty.

    Over 50% of voters back the death penalty for multiple murders, terrorism and child killers

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1509113083142279168?s=20&t=IMSmHE-SfU3EnWfLmsrWUw

    This must never be reintroduced. The death penalty is utterly barbaric.
  • HYUFD said:

    New Yougov finds 40% of voters overall and 58% of Conservative voters support the death penalty.

    Over 50% of voters back the death penalty for multiple murders, terrorism and child killers

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1509113083142279168?s=20&t=IMSmHE-SfU3EnWfLmsrWUw

    Capital punishment is not coming back
  • Endillion said:

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1509092404061687810

    And then this, FFS this is pathetic.

    So women can have a penis?

    Unless you can show me otherwise, I believe you are misgendering Wallis, who has never claimed to be a woman.
    They are claiming to be trans. So BoJo is happy to make jokes at their expense. Shameful.
  • If the death penalty was reintroduced here I would emigrate.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Hypocrisy.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Ah, Jamie Wallis,

    ... and I thought his PhD would be the most memorable thing about him

    ... and I thought his suger daddy website would be the most memorable thing about him

    ... and I thought the headline "driving whilst unfit" would be the most memorable thing about him
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2022

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    If you can't joke about others....well there is no comedy.

    I believe (not a view i share) that many say you can only joke about others when punching up. Woman with medical condition, no, powerful politician poor interview, yes, as former is punching down, the later is punching up.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    The phrase of the day is "performative pearl-clutching".
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    If you can't joke about others....well there is no comedy.

    I believe (not a view i share) that some say you can only joke about others when punching up. Woman with medical condition, no, powerful politician poor interview, yes.
    He was joking about trans people.
  • Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    A new field in the Woke Wars


    “Fears for future of female sport as transgender cyclist rides in”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/11533398-af91-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=56783f7c2fef58840d07682742439572

    I predicted this yonks ago. Trans male sporting stars will dominate female sports. The rewards are too enticing. A good bio-male cyclist (like this) will beat every female cyclist on the planet, win every race, get golds, earn millions

    I recall PB-ers scoffing at my predictions and saying this was a tiny possibility and highly unlikely

    Well, here it is. Happening
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2022

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    If you can't joke about others....well there is no comedy.

    I believe (not a view i share) that some say you can only joke about others when punching up. Woman with medical condition, no, powerful politician poor interview, yes.
    He was joking about trans people.
    That's your take.
  • We've moved from sensible debate to just out and out transphobia from a couple of users now.

    We are better than this, I am off.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    If you can't joke about others....well there is no comedy.

    I believe (not a view i share) that some say you can only joke about others when punching up. Woman with medical condition, no, powerful politician poor interview, yes.
    He was joking about trans people.
    He named Starmer in the joke. Is Starmer trans?
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737

    HYUFD said:

    New Yougov finds 40% of voters overall and 58% of Conservative voters support the death penalty.

    Over 50% of voters back the death penalty for multiple murders, terrorism and child killers

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1509113083142279168?s=20&t=IMSmHE-SfU3EnWfLmsrWUw

    This must never be reintroduced. The death penalty is utterly barbaric.
    The polling doesn't surprise me (even if I can understand the emotion involved in certain serial killer cases). It won't though because it has very little support among Tory MPs (I can only think of Priti Patel off the top of my head) plus even Tory MPs such as Andrew Bridgen are strong opponents of it.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    Great interview here with Zelensky from the Economist.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNjiRmIWtss

    All those in the west who patronised eastern europeans and thought they understood Russia and Putin better than the neighbours did should hang their heads in shame.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    If you can't joke about others....well there is no comedy.

    I believe (not a view i share) that some say you can only joke about others when punching up. Woman with medical condition, no, powerful politician poor interview, yes.
    He was joking about trans people.
    Worse things happen at sea.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-embarrassed-by-friendly-message-to-evgeny-lebedev-on-peerage-z7wvtx7dj

    In the interest of transparency Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t text Russian Oligarchs to congratulate them on their election to the HoL, he tables parliamentary motions for them to be sanctioned. And has done so for 14 years.

    Jeremy Corbyn is a disgrace. He has taken money for appearing on the mouthpiece of Putin, Russia Today aka RT. He also took significant sums for appearing on Iranian TV. He takes money from despots, and while he is well known to be as thick as a plank, he knew exactly what he was doing.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    I think your assessment on this is wrong. Its Johnson poking fun at Starmer, not at trans people. Its about the contortions people are having in trying to say the right thing, or in Starmer's case trying not to upset the extreme left who are obsessed with this. If you object to Johnson poking fun at Starmer then you ought to object at Starmer poking fun at Johnson.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2022

    We've moved from sensible debate to just out and out transphobia from a couple of users now.

    We are better than this, I am off.

    Why is it that your interactions always descend into people are being nasty to me or you calling other people out as nasty?

    Literally no other poster has this take about PB. Occasionally people over step the line, but every day you have this take.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    If you can't joke about others....well there is no comedy.

    I believe (not a view i share) that some say you can only joke about others when punching up. Woman with medical condition, no, powerful politician poor interview, yes.
    He was joking about trans people.
    He was joking about Starmer
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Endillion said:

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1509092404061687810

    And then this, FFS this is pathetic.

    So women can have a penis?

    Unless you can show me otherwise, I believe you are misgendering Wallis, who has never claimed to be a woman.
    They are claiming to be trans. So BoJo is happy to make jokes at their expense. Shameful.
    I suggest you read his statement:

    I’m trans. Or to be more accurate, I want to be. I’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and I’ve felt this way since I was a very young child.

    https://www.jamiewallisbridgend.com/news/statement-from-jamie-wallis-mp-30th-march-2022
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    I think your assessment on this is wrong. Its Johnson poking fun at Starmer, not at trans people. Its about the contortions people are having in trying to say the right thing, or in Starmer's case trying not to upset the extreme left who are obsessed with this. If you object to Johnson poking fun at Starmer then you ought to object at Starmer poking fun at Johnson.
    I think the joke was fine, and of course, with the exception of die-hard Johnson apologists, all of us know "Boris" is a clown.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    We've moved from sensible debate to just out and out transphobia from a couple of users now.

    We are better than this, I am off.

    Huh? I don't believe Johnson was joking about trans people. Why do you think he was?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited March 2022

    HYUFD said:

    New Yougov finds 40% of voters overall and 58% of Conservative voters support the death penalty.

    Over 50% of voters back the death penalty for multiple murders, terrorism and child killers

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1509113083142279168?s=20&t=IMSmHE-SfU3EnWfLmsrWUw

    This must never be reintroduced. The death penalty is utterly barbaric.
    The polling doesn't surprise me (even if I can understand the emotion involved in certain serial killer cases). It won't though because it has very little support among Tory MPs (I can only think of Priti Patel off the top of my head) plus even Tory MPs such as Andrew Bridgen are strong opponents of it.
    Me neither. Support for the death penalty has always been high, and far higher with the public than MPs.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749

    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


    This is ridiculous. Show me the country where no-one died. I'm sorry for anyone who died or lost someone, but the Tories didn't kill them, covid did.
    Yep, it is ridiculous that there are people defending those who made the rules that prevented people seeing their dying relatives, broke those rules and then lied about it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577

    I'd just like to express my admiration for the way Jamie Wallis has released this information, after a harrowing time.

    It's another reminder that trans people are people, not some strange group. There will be good ones amongst them, and bad ones, just as there are in the general population. There will be Labour supporters, and Conservative supporters. There might even be the odd Lib Dem. ;)

    Completely agree.

    Good for them, I am glad we live in a society where people can feel free to be who they are.
    Just in case you didn't see it yesterday, here's an interesting text Quentin Crisp wrote before he died:
    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/21/quentin-crisp-reflects-on-trans-identity-in-exclusive-final-autobiography/

    "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret. If the operation had been available and cheap when I was young, say when I was twenty-five or twenty-six, I would have jumped at the chance. My life would have been much simpler as a result. I would have told nobody. Instead, I would have gone to live in a distant town and run a knitting wool shop and no one would ever have known my secret.

    I would have joined the real world and it would have been wonderful."
    It's pretty clear from history that trans individuals, though the terms didn't exist until recently, have always been around.

    It's also very clear indeed that they are far happier and well adjusted when able to publicly acknowledge their selves, rather be conditioned from birth to repress their feelings.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-embarrassed-by-friendly-message-to-evgeny-lebedev-on-peerage-z7wvtx7dj

    In the interest of transparency Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t text Russian Oligarchs to congratulate them on their election to the HoL, he tables parliamentary motions for them to be sanctioned. And has done so for 14 years.

    Jeremy Corbyn is a disgrace. He has taken money for appearing on the mouthpiece of Putin, Russia Today aka RT. He also took significant sums for appearing on Iranian TV. He takes money from despots, and while he is well known to be as thick as a plank, he knew exactly what he was doing.
    Loads of MPs of all parties have appeared on RT so that is point is moot. I don't know about the details about Corbyn's appearances on PressTV and what he did with the money but given certain Labour and Tory MPs friendless towards Saudi Arabia, I don't really understand the outrage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    The problem with Johnson is (and always has been) that he may well have crafted his joke very carefully so as to try to make Starmer the butt but most people will just hear a joke about trans people and think oh that's fair game because the PM did it.

    A bit like the "there's no such thing as society" speech. We know what she actually meant and said but a politician must and should know better how to avoid such bear traps.

    For Johnson, as we are very well aware, he sees the ambiguity and likely misinterpretation as a feature not a bug.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
    I am not sure I understand the obsession with this topic. Allow people to identify as they choose as far as I am concerned. If that involves removing gender specific toilets I will not miss the smell of urinals.

    What I am upset about is that my favourite scene from The Life of Brian would no longer be allowed if the film were made today.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    Endillion said:

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1509092404061687810

    And then this, FFS this is pathetic.

    So women can have a penis?

    Unless you can show me otherwise, I believe you are misgendering Wallis, who has never claimed to be a woman.
    They are claiming to be trans. So BoJo is happy to make jokes at their expense. Shameful.
    Nope; statement says quite clearly, "I want to be [trans]". And the joke was clearly targeted at Starmer. You're reaching, and breaking your own side's rules of politeness in the process.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
    I am not sure I understand the obsession with this topic. Allow people to identify as they choose as far as I am concerned. If that involves removing gender specific toilets I will not miss the smell of urinals.

    What I am upset about is that my favourite scene from The Life of Brian would no longer be allowed if the film were made today.
    Rather than smells than the queues. ;)
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Leon said:

    A new field in the Woke Wars


    “Fears for future of female sport as transgender cyclist rides in”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/11533398-af91-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=56783f7c2fef58840d07682742439572

    I predicted this yonks ago. Trans male sporting stars will dominate female sports. The rewards are too enticing. A good bio-male cyclist (like this) will beat every female cyclist on the planet, win every race, get golds, earn millions

    I recall PB-ers scoffing at my predictions and saying this was a tiny possibility and highly unlikely

    Well, here it is. Happening

    It had already happened in sprint cycling, Rachel McKinnon, but I guess that was 'senior' competition.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577

    interesting thread on future of western military spending. Perhaps Sunak was right to hold off additional billions at this time?


    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    This might be counter-intuitive, but the mediocre (to be kind) performance of the Russian military in Kyiv means that Europe and the USA do not need to rush out and spend billions more right away on their militaries. It means they have a window to plan for the future.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1508888821005529094

    I'd have thought re-armament would be high on Putin's agenda. How long did it take his mentor? Six years, including reoccupation of the Rhineland, which we were content to overlook at the time.

    As Putin no doubt says to his well-wishers, "I am in blood stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er."
    There are so many angles to this. Firstly, military equipment nowadays is much more complex than it was eighty years ago, and supply chains are massive and often international - so re-equipping can be expensive and difficult.

    On the other hand, much of Russia's problems seem to come from doctrine, leadership and training. This is easier to fix - as Ukraine has done after they solidly lost in 2014.

    I do wonder how much Russia's military training and setup is actually a result of a system that does not want a military that can challenge the leadership? If that's the case, it won't change, and the military will be fighting with one hand behind its back whatever equipment they have.

    What Russia needs to do is look at Ukraine: how have they gone from being beaten eight years ago, to a much better position today? Some of it is western equipment, but much of it will be training and doctrinal changes within the government and military.
    Absent societal changes, none of that is going to make much real difference.
    And given such changes, the motive to invade their neighbours would very likely not exist.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Oh so you're allowing jokes at the expense of others now, weird how you had a different view on Chris Rock doing the same
    I think the joke is about Starmer's linguistic contortions, not about trans people.
    Why are we joking about others?

    We had such a strong view on Chris Rock, yet now it's a politician people don't like it's back to fair game.

    So inconsistent. I am dizzy.
    If you can't joke about others....well there is no comedy.

    I believe (not a view i share) that some say you can only joke about others when punching up. Woman with medical condition, no, powerful politician poor interview, yes.
    He was joking about trans people.
    Worse things happen at sea.
    Or, as Keir Starmer would put it, over tectonic plates assigned as oceanic.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keir-starmer-embarrassed-by-friendly-message-to-evgeny-lebedev-on-peerage-z7wvtx7dj

    In the interest of transparency Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t text Russian Oligarchs to congratulate them on their election to the HoL, he tables parliamentary motions for them to be sanctioned. And has done so for 14 years.

    Jeremy Corbyn is a disgrace. He has taken money for appearing on the mouthpiece of Putin, Russia Today aka RT. He also took significant sums for appearing on Iranian TV. He takes money from despots, and while he is well known to be as thick as a plank, he knew exactly what he was doing.
    Loads of MPs of all parties have appeared on RT so that is point is moot. I don't know about the details about Corbyn's appearances on PressTV and what he did with the money but given certain Labour and Tory MPs friendless towards Saudi Arabia, I don't really understand the outrage.
    All of them that have been on RT are a disgrace, and no, it definitely is not a "moot point". A despotic regime has been allowed to infiltrate our political life, or perhaps you are not concerned about that? FYI, he is known to have received over £20k from the mullah's mouthpiece. He is a disgrace.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,520
    Nigelb said:

    I'd just like to express my admiration for the way Jamie Wallis has released this information, after a harrowing time.

    It's another reminder that trans people are people, not some strange group. There will be good ones amongst them, and bad ones, just as there are in the general population. There will be Labour supporters, and Conservative supporters. There might even be the odd Lib Dem. ;)

    Completely agree.

    Good for them, I am glad we live in a society where people can feel free to be who they are.
    Just in case you didn't see it yesterday, here's an interesting text Quentin Crisp wrote before he died:
    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/21/quentin-crisp-reflects-on-trans-identity-in-exclusive-final-autobiography/

    "The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret. If the operation had been available and cheap when I was young, say when I was twenty-five or twenty-six, I would have jumped at the chance. My life would have been much simpler as a result. I would have told nobody. Instead, I would have gone to live in a distant town and run a knitting wool shop and no one would ever have known my secret.

    I would have joined the real world and it would have been wonderful."
    It's pretty clear from history that trans individuals, though the terms didn't exist until recently, have always been around.

    It's also very clear indeed that they are far happier and well adjusted when able to publicly acknowledge their selves, rather be conditioned from birth to repress their feelings.
    Going the other way, there's a book 'Following the drum', about women and warfare. The stories include women who fought as men at sea and on land, sometimes living as men for many years. From memory, one woman worked for years as a ship's carpenter for years before she was discovered. Once discovered she could not serve any more, so she became a shipwright at a naval base. Her skills were too useful...

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Following-Drum-Lives-Daughters-Present/dp/0755312597

    In some ways it might have been easier back then.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577

    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


    Am I the only @Conservatives wondering who paid for last nights @BorisJohnson @10DowningStreet smooching dinner. I’m constantly bombarded with requests for donations to the party yet 360 MPs were entertained prob out of party funds whilst the country faces a cost of living crisis
    https://twitter.com/CJLeader68/status/1509044554518913024
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
    And, also, whether that person-with-a-penis has ALL the rights of a woman: ie the right to enter female only spaces - toilets, changing rooms, prisons, sports etc

    If you still have a penis, no, you don’t have that right. You’re biologically male. Outside those sensitive areas then society should treat you as a woman if that’s how you self identify

    This is what my actual trans best friend believes (she transitioned surgically 25 years ago) and I agree with her. So, I suspect, does most of the country
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


    This is ridiculous. Show me the country where no-one died. I'm sorry for anyone who died or lost someone, but the Tories didn't kill them, covid did.
    Yep, it is ridiculous that there are people defending those who made the rules that prevented people seeing their dying relatives, broke those rules and then lied about it.
    Thats not what I said. People are angry that their families died. I understand that. I've been very lucky. But the idea that somehow the conservative government is responsible for all those deaths is ridiculous, as it would be to blame Sturgeon in Scotland or Drakeford in Wales, or Macron in France. People seem to ascribe more power to governments than was really there in the face of covid. Across Western Europe death rates are much of a muchness.

    Those in No 10 who broke the rules were idiots and should not have done it. But to be clear, they are getting FPNs, the equivalent of a parking ticket or speeding fine. There really needs to be a sense of proportion.

    I want Johnson gone as much as the next person. He is a terrible PM. But people need to look at themselves too.

    Everybody bent the covid rules. I drove 5 miles to walk in a better area (country tracks, saw nobody). Yet some who did the same were fined. My parents version of the bubble included everyone they wanted to see, just one at time. We all did it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited March 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


    Am I the only @Conservatives wondering who paid for last nights @BorisJohnson @10DowningStreet smooching dinner. I’m constantly bombarded with requests for donations to the party yet 360 MPs were entertained prob out of party funds whilst the country faces a cost of living crisis
    https://twitter.com/CJLeader68/status/1509044554518913024
    Is there any suggestion that it wasn't the Tory party that paid for it?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
    I am not sure I understand the obsession with this topic. Allow people to identify as they choose as far as I am concerned. If that involves removing gender specific toilets I will not miss the smell of urinals.

    What I am upset about is that my favourite scene from The Life of Brian would no longer be allowed if the film were made today.
    Interestingly the punchline of that scene juxtaposes "the right" to something with an acceptance that it isn't real.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited March 2022

    glw said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    This morning on the radio I heard a midwife talking about the Shrewsbury maternity issues refer to the care of babies and birthing persons.
    The awful mess the conservatives have got into over this is trying to play it all ways at the same time - the bestest friend to all trans people going through difficult times, or the remarks of Boris last night trying to score party political points.

    The Tories stupid approach on trans is trying to be two things at the same time.

    We simply need to ask Big G if Boris remarks last night were disgraceful or not and let Big G point to other remarks Boris said another time as answer to prove this point. Simples.
    To be honest I have not heard what Boris said last night but this is a problem which Starmer tried to address and immediately fell out with JK Rowling and of course Rosie Duffield

    It is a complex subject but the issues is dividing labour and many across the political divide

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60188577
    Your digging yourself into a hole with this one Big G, and anyone bigging it up as a Labour problem and not a big one for the Conservatives.

    Labour and Lib Dems actually have the advantage over the Conservatives here because they are not the ones trying to exploit it for party political reasons. 🙂

    The only logical outcome from the Tory approach here is the vote losing “nasty party” tag.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2022
    TimS said:

    Never in the field of culture war conflict has so much energy been spent on such a niche political topic by so few.

    Its partly driven by the media coverage of this issue is always way out of proportion. The BBC run pieces on trans issues near daily, driven by a cultural bias of disproportionate young, urban, liberal people who work there And because particularly the left are in a bind over this, it encourages the pile on from the right leaning media as an easy gotcha / outrage clicks. And then the cycle repeats.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    If the death penalty was reintroduced here I would emigrate.

    I am not sure I would emigrate but I would fight it all the way. It is one of the reasons why I think Priti Patel is unfit to be Home Secretary or PM. Her support for the Death Penalty is very disturbing and to my mind symptomatic of her attitude towards state authority in general.
    Would you oppose the death penalty for Putin?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
    I am not sure I understand the obsession with this topic. Allow people to identify as they choose as far as I am concerned. If that involves removing gender specific toilets I will not miss the smell of urinals.

    What I am upset about is that my favourite scene from The Life of Brian would no longer be allowed if the film were made today.
    Rather than smells than the queues. ;)
    Lol.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    I don’t really understand what Johnson is on about. Trying to argue the Tories are tax cutting?

    Who believes this rubbish?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    If the death penalty was reintroduced here I would emigrate.

    I am not sure I would emigrate but I would fight it all the way. It is one of the reasons why I think Priti Patel is unfit to be Home Secretary or PM. Her support for the Death Penalty is very disturbing and to my mind symptomatic of her attitude towards state authority in general.
    I understand why some people are in favour of the death penalty. Who hasn't thought that the world would be better with Wayne Couzens in it? But the frequency of wrongful convictions being overturned is a huge factor to be considered.

    I would support voluntary suicide for people like Couzens. I don't see why we should keep him alive for the next 40 years.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Nigelb said:

    interesting thread on future of western military spending. Perhaps Sunak was right to hold off additional billions at this time?


    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    This might be counter-intuitive, but the mediocre (to be kind) performance of the Russian military in Kyiv means that Europe and the USA do not need to rush out and spend billions more right away on their militaries. It means they have a window to plan for the future.

    https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1508888821005529094

    I'd have thought re-armament would be high on Putin's agenda. How long did it take his mentor? Six years, including reoccupation of the Rhineland, which we were content to overlook at the time.

    As Putin no doubt says to his well-wishers, "I am in blood stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er."
    There are so many angles to this. Firstly, military equipment nowadays is much more complex than it was eighty years ago, and supply chains are massive and often international - so re-equipping can be expensive and difficult.

    On the other hand, much of Russia's problems seem to come from doctrine, leadership and training. This is easier to fix - as Ukraine has done after they solidly lost in 2014.

    I do wonder how much Russia's military training and setup is actually a result of a system that does not want a military that can challenge the leadership? If that's the case, it won't change, and the military will be fighting with one hand behind its back whatever equipment they have.

    What Russia needs to do is look at Ukraine: how have they gone from being beaten eight years ago, to a much better position today? Some of it is western equipment, but much of it will be training and doctrinal changes within the government and military.
    Absent societal changes, none of that is going to make much real difference.
    And given such changes, the motive to invade their neighbours would very likely not exist.
    "much of Russia's problems seem to come from doctrine, leadership and training. "

    Given that Putin has created a society that uses lying as social glue and corruption and cronyism is everywhere, the military are going to struggle to make changes.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    TimS said:

    Never in the field of culture war conflict has so much energy been spent on such a niche political topic by so few.

    Women’s rights and safety are a “niche political topic”?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    If the death penalty was reintroduced here I would emigrate.

    I am not sure I would emigrate but I would fight it all the way. It is one of the reasons why I think Priti Patel is unfit to be Home Secretary or PM. Her support for the Death Penalty is very disturbing and to my mind symptomatic of her attitude towards state authority in general.
    I understand why some people are in favour of the death penalty. Who hasn't thought that the world would be better with Wayne Couzens in it? But the frequency of wrongful convictions being overturned is a huge factor to be considered.

    I would support voluntary suicide for people like Couzens. I don't see why we should keep him alive for the next 40 years.
    That would be too open to abuse. There would be a perverse incentive to force people to take that option.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    Kay Burley this morning asks Wes Streeting is is right when men go into hospital they are asked if they are pregnant

    This morning on the radio I heard a midwife talking about the Shrewsbury maternity issues refer to the care of babies and birthing persons.
    The awful mess the conservatives have got into over this is trying to play it all ways at the same time - the bestest friend to all trans people going through difficult times, or the remarks of Boris last night trying to score party political points.

    The Tories stupid approach on trans is trying to be two things at the same time.

    We simply need to ask Big G if Boris remarks last night were disgraceful or not and let Big G point to other remarks Boris said another time as answer to prove this point. Simples.
    To be honest I have not heard what Boris said last night but this is a problem which Starmer tried to address and immediately fell out with JK Rowling and of course Rosie Duffield

    It is a complex subject but the issues is dividing labour and many across the political divide

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60188577
    Generally voters think people should be able to change their sex and self identify as a gender different to the one they were born with.

    However they also think a doctor's consent is needed before sex is changed and that transgender women should not compete in womens' sports

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights
    Looking at the responses in detail, majority public opinion seems both reasonable and sensible.
    One thing they don't ask is whether the government should pay for it though. It's a hugely expensive elective procedure and each one could lots of medicines or a kidney machine.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749

    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


    This is ridiculous. Show me the country where no-one died. I'm sorry for anyone who died or lost someone, but the Tories didn't kill them, covid did.
    Yep, it is ridiculous that there are people defending those who made the rules that prevented people seeing their dying relatives, broke those rules and then lied about it.
    Thats not what I said. People are angry that their families died. I understand that. I've been very lucky. But the idea that somehow the conservative government is responsible for all those deaths is ridiculous, as it would be to blame Sturgeon in Scotland or Drakeford in Wales, or Macron in France. People seem to ascribe more power to governments than was really there in the face of covid. Across Western Europe death rates are much of a muchness.

    Those in No 10 who broke the rules were idiots and should not have done it. But to be clear, they are getting FPNs, the equivalent of a parking ticket or speeding fine. There really needs to be a sense of proportion.

    I want Johnson gone as much as the next person. He is a terrible PM. But people need to look at themselves too.

    Everybody bent the covid rules. I drove 5 miles to walk in a better area (country tracks, saw nobody). Yet some who did the same were fined. My parents version of the bubble included everyone they wanted to see, just one at time. We all did it.
    Who in the context of that tweet is saying the ‘conservative government is responsible for all those deaths’? You seem to be the only person framing it in this way while afaics they (like me) are disgusted by the amoral arseholes who made the the rules for everyone else while gaily breaking them.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
    I am not sure I understand the obsession with this topic. Allow people to identify as they choose as far as I am concerned. If that involves removing gender specific toilets I will not miss the smell of urinals.

    What I am upset about is that my favourite scene from The Life of Brian would no longer be allowed if the film were made today.
    Interestingly the punchline of that scene juxtaposes "the right" to something with an acceptance that it isn't real.
    It is great satire . For those who have no idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R79yYo2aOZs .
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    Countries with the death penalty and actually executed more than 5 people in 2020:

    China, Iran, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi, US, Somalia, Yemen.

    How many of those places are either safer or happier than the countries who don't have it?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


    This is ridiculous. Show me the country where no-one died. I'm sorry for anyone who died or lost someone, but the Tories didn't kill them, covid did.
    Yep, it is ridiculous that there are people defending those who made the rules that prevented people seeing their dying relatives, broke those rules and then lied about it.
    Thats not what I said. People are angry that their families died. I understand that. I've been very lucky. But the idea that somehow the conservative government is responsible for all those deaths is ridiculous, as it would be to blame Sturgeon in Scotland or Drakeford in Wales, or Macron in France. People seem to ascribe more power to governments than was really there in the face of covid. Across Western Europe death rates are much of a muchness.

    Those in No 10 who broke the rules were idiots and should not have done it. But to be clear, they are getting FPNs, the equivalent of a parking ticket or speeding fine. There really needs to be a sense of proportion.

    I want Johnson gone as much as the next person. He is a terrible PM. But people need to look at themselves too.

    Everybody bent the covid rules. I drove 5 miles to walk in a better area (country tracks, saw nobody). Yet some who did the same were fined. My parents version of the bubble included everyone they wanted to see, just one at time. We all did it.
    The Conservative Government is responsible for some decisions that led to some people dying who would not otherwise have died. That this does not represent the majority of those who died is immaterial. They need to be held responsible for the deaths which were preventable and which they either caused or failed to prevent through their failings. Comparing with other countries which had their own, often different, failings is no argument.

    And no, we didn't 'all do it'. There were millions of people who took the Government at their word and stuck absolutely to the rules. For some like me it was largely easy although not seeing my aged mother for months on end was tough. Many had it far worse but still stuck to the rules. There were countless numbers who were prevented from seeing their loved ones in their final days because of those rules and who now find out that those making the rules were ignoring them. That is indefensible and using the argument of 'oh everyone was doing it' is a playground defence which is both false and offensive given we should expect the people making the rules to abide by them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Fridge magnet news. You just know if BJ had found the moral fibre to do that walk of shame he would have been unable to wipe the smirk of his pus.


    This is ridiculous. Show me the country where no-one died. I'm sorry for anyone who died or lost someone, but the Tories didn't kill them, covid did.
    Yep, it is ridiculous that there are people defending those who made the rules that prevented people seeing their dying relatives, broke those rules and then lied about it.
    Thats not what I said. People are angry that their families died. I understand that. I've been very lucky. But the idea that somehow the conservative government is responsible for all those deaths is ridiculous, as it would be to blame Sturgeon in Scotland or Drakeford in Wales, or Macron in France. People seem to ascribe more power to governments than was really there in the face of covid. Across Western Europe death rates are much of a muchness.

    Those in No 10 who broke the rules were idiots and should not have done it. But to be clear, they are getting FPNs, the equivalent of a parking ticket or speeding fine. There really needs to be a sense of proportion.

    I want Johnson gone as much as the next person. He is a terrible PM. But people need to look at themselves too.

    Everybody bent the covid rules. I drove 5 miles to walk in a better area (country tracks, saw nobody). Yet some who did the same were fined. My parents version of the bubble included everyone they wanted to see, just one at time. We all did it.
    Who in the context of that tweet is saying the ‘conservative government is responsible for all those deaths’? You seem to be the only person framing it in this way while afaics they (like me) are disgusted by the amoral arseholes who made the the rules for everyone else while gaily breaking them.
    The campaign website suggests they think that:

    Every single UK citizen deserves to understand how and why those in charge of our public institutions were unable to prevent so many deaths and such widespread heartbreak.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,520
    With the situation as it is now, has anyone changed their mind about nuclear power, and Hinkley Point in particular?

    Hinkley Point has a strike price of £92.50 per megawatt-hour. And the current price appears to be much higher than that. What is more, nuclear offers us reasonable independence and security as part of a diverse energy supply.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/589765/average-electricity-prices-uk/

    So, has anyone changed their mind?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    The Times chief sports writer has written an opinion piece on that trans cyclist issue

    His opinion: this cyclist should not be allowed to compete against women


    “If you believe in fair competition, trans cyclist should not be racing Kenny”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3081c8c0-af7c-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=e20de4b935926c5dec0db4375753e3df

    Interestingly, there is an online poll at the end. “Do you agree?” Now I know online paper polls are voodoo science and self selecting nonetheless the results are fascinating. 7500 votes, 98% agree with the Times writer. Overwhelming

    Most people think the trans debate is insane and has gone way too far in favour of self ID. Labour is in the 2% that disagree

    No wonder the Tories are exploiting the issue
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    If the death penalty was reintroduced here I would emigrate.

    I am not sure I would emigrate but I would fight it all the way. It is one of the reasons why I think Priti Patel is unfit to be Home Secretary or PM. Her support for the Death Penalty is very disturbing and to my mind symptomatic of her attitude towards state authority in general.
    I understand why some people are in favour of the death penalty. Who hasn't thought that the world would be better with Wayne Couzens in it? But the frequency of wrongful convictions being overturned is a huge factor to be considered.

    I would support voluntary suicide for people like Couzens. I don't see why we should keep him alive for the next 40 years.
    There is a distinction though for that reason between serial killers and single murderers.

    While only 40% back the death penalty overall, 55% support it for cases of multiple murder by the same person
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1509113083142279168?s=20&t=UnMRImKYTbUt2Tm3MgX-AQ
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    I don’t really understand what Johnson is on about. Trying to argue the Tories are tax cutting?

    Who believes this rubbish?

    Oldies, exempt from NI and expecting an income tax cut.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Can you explain how trans issue belongs in “woke” and “culture war” battles?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2022
    That covid pressure group should always be taken with a huge mound of salt....they are a maomentum front group who have been caught lying and twisting the truth. They are bad faith actors.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Julia Hartley-Brewer applauds Labour MP Wes Streeting for his answer to "Can a woman have a penis?"

    Wes: "Men have penises, women have vaginas."
    @JuliaHB1 @wesstreeting


    https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1509088010771570688
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2022
    Leon said:

    The Times chief sports writer has written an opinion piece on that trans cyclist issue

    His opinion: this cyclist should not be allowed to compete against women


    “If you believe in fair competition, trans cyclist should not be racing Kenny”

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3081c8c0-af7c-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=e20de4b935926c5dec0db4375753e3df

    Interestingly, there is an online poll at the end. “Do you agree?” Now I know online paper polls are voodoo science and self selecting nonetheless the results are fascinating. 7500 votes, 98% agree with the Times writer. Overwhelming

    Most people think the trans debate is insane and has gone way too far in favour of self ID. Labour is in the 2% that disagree

    No wonder the Tories are exploiting the issue

    Combat sports....some biological woman is going to get absolutely brutalised.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    On the night a Tory MP comes out as trans, Boris Johnson starts his speech with a joke:

    “Good evening ladies and gentleman, or as Keir Starmer would put it, people who are assigned female or male at birth.”

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1509074626554601473

    Excellent joke. In the culture wars the trans issue is the NLAW against the clueless tanks of Labour Wokeness

    I’ve every sympathy for people with gender dysphoria - like that poor Tory MP - but only men have penises. And any politician that can’t say this is going to suffer, badly, in the looming battles
    Do you support a person's right to identify as a woman if they have transitioned?
    This isn't the question. It's not whether a given individual has the right to identify as a woman but whether everyone else has a duty to believe that they literally are a woman.
    And, also, whether that person-with-a-penis has ALL the rights of a woman: ie the right to enter female only spaces - toilets, changing rooms, prisons, sports etc

    If you still have a penis, no, you don’t have that right. You’re biologically male. Outside those sensitive areas then society should treat you as a woman if that’s how you self identify

    This is what my actual trans best friend believes (she transitioned surgically 25 years ago) and I agree with her. So, I suspect, does most of the country
    Isn’t the problem inside your binary mind though? You can either be a man or a women, so you can only have the rights of a man or a woman?
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