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How the pandemic impacted the UK – politicalbetting.com

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  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073

    In many constituencies, independents stand to gain transfers from SF voters at higher rate than almost all other parties. Seeing as how core SFers were (and guessing still are to above-average degree) famously adverse to giving non-SF candidates any preferences.
    Rather like Le Pens repositioning, have SF not pulled themselves towards political centre, honed a “modern party of the common people” message, to be able to swell their voter base even more going forward - especially when playing on their own modernity against the arch conservatism of FG FF and many of the independents?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,264
    rcs100 - I have heard good things about the Ian Toll's Pacific war trilogy, and it is on my "sometime" list. But first I plan to read his "Six Frigates", which I have had for about a year, but not even started.

    Incidentally, our local monopoly newspaper, the Seattle Times, regularly (including today) has articles and columns about the Japanese internment in this area, but has never mentioned the Manila massacre during the decades that I have been reading it. NHK World, which I occasionally watch, has a similar policy.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    edited March 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    That was while Vichy existed. After it 'fell', and was absorbed into the Reich, then all men below a certain age (50?) were liable for conscription.
    No. The Germans did not use conscription from the general French population. What they had was Service du Travail Obligatoire (STO) which was used to provide forced labour in Germany to compensate for the loss of manpower due to the deteriorating situation on the Eastern Front. STO provided labourers (often under slave like conditions) not soldiers. And by the time Vichy fell in late summer of 1944, much of France had already been liberated and the Germans were in full scale retreat so there was very little of France for them to obtain workers from.

    The only area of France that had conscription was Alsace and Lorraine which the Germans claimed was Germany anyway. A lot of the troops in the 2nd SS Panzer Division which committed the atrocities at Thule and Oradour sur Glane in June 1944 were Alsatian French/Germans.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,073

    Rather like Le Pens repositioning, have SF not pulled themselves towards political centre, honed a “modern party of the common people” message, to be able to swell their voter base even more going forward - especially when playing on their own modernity against the arch conservatism of FG FF and many of the independents?
    Here I go commentating on Irish politics. What do I know about Irish Politics? I should tap out before embarrassing myself 😆

    But here goes. In all honesty. I have only been in Ireland twice in my life, and that was with Horse-racing in mind. And I am left from the experience genuinely believing the Irish are a friendly and hospitable people to everyone from around the world - unless you speak with a British accent. Ten years ago when I first went over, I actually had this naive idea green politics could grow in Ireland - before I now appreciate Irish politics is shaped and dominated by Nationalism.

    Interestingly, Green is a major player in German politics, but can’t make a mark in France, can we put this down to the same as in Ireland, politics already more strongly shaped by nationalism?

    Please correct me where wrong, the last hundred years of Irish politics shaped by pretty much the one thing - Collins deal with the British. They were all basically on the same side, Irish land and freedom, but those who accepted deal followed Collins into government quickly became FG, those who didn’t then later became known as FF when in government, fought a bloody civil war with Collins British backed government (backed by hated Black and Tan security force) and then there was a truce, and the IRA people fought on in another split (maybe partly class based) especially when FF kicked FG out of government and governed well and took strangle hold on something they fought bloody civil war arguing was wrong. 🤦‍♀️

    The actual political ideology of the IRA makes no sense to me in how it flip flops. 1926 to 36 very socialist or even communist, but in mid thirties turned rather fascist and cuddled up to euro,and world Fascism. Peaky blinders is touching on this, but I think jumped the gun a bit early in their timings.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,201
    edited March 2022
    Deleted as effectively duplicating @Theuniondivvie
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,201

    No. The Germans did not use conscription from the general French population. What they had was Service du Travail Obligatoire (STO) which was used to provide forced labour in Germany to compensate for the loss of manpower due to the deteriorating situation on the Eastern Front. STO provided labourers (often under slave like conditions) not soldiers. And by the time Vichy fell in late summer of 1944, much of France had already been liberated and the Germans were in full scale retreat so there was very little of France for them to obtain workers from.

    The only area of France that had conscription was Alsace and Lorraine which the Germans claimed was Germany anyway. A lot of the troops in the 2nd SS Panzer Division which committed the atrocities at Thule and Oradour sur Glane in June 1944 were Alsatian French/Germans.

    One corollary of the Nazis' removal of fighting-age Frenchmen to labour camps is that the French Resistance largely consisted of, like our Home Guard, elderly veterans and the young, except with added women. This can be seen in the BBC's comedy documentary series, 'Allo 'Allo.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    One corollary of the Nazis' removal of fighting-age Frenchmen to labour camps is that the French Resistance largely consisted of, like our Home Guard, elderly veterans and the young, except with added women. This can be seen in the BBC's comedy documentary series, 'Allo 'Allo.
    Actually pretty much the opposite. As a result of STO over 200,000 Frenchmen of fighting age dropped out of society completely to void being deported and joined the Maquis. Only about a quarter of them actually fought. The rest were simply hiding in the hills. But it was a massive driver for Frenchmen to join the various resistance groups.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400

    No. The Germans did not use conscription from the general French population. What they had was Service du Travail Obligatoire (STO) which was used to provide forced labour in Germany to compensate for the loss of manpower due to the deteriorating situation on the Eastern Front. STO provided labourers (often under slave like conditions) not soldiers. And by the time Vichy fell in late summer of 1944, much of France had already been liberated and the Germans were in full scale retreat so there was very little of France for them to obtain workers from.

    The only area of France that had conscription was Alsace and Lorraine which the Germans claimed was Germany anyway. A lot of the troops in the 2nd SS Panzer Division which committed the atrocities at Thule and Oradour sur Glane in June 1944 were Alsatian French/Germans.

    I am corrected.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400

    rcs100 - I have heard good things about the Ian Toll's Pacific war trilogy, and it is on my "sometime" list. But first I plan to read his "Six Frigates", which I have had for about a year, but not even started.

    Incidentally, our local monopoly newspaper, the Seattle Times, regularly (including today) has articles and columns about the Japanese internment in this area, but has never mentioned the Manila massacre during the decades that I have been reading it. NHK World, which I occasionally watch, has a similar policy.

    Six Frigates is a good book, but not an amazing one.

    The Pacific War trilogy, by contrast, is the best general history series I have ever read.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    "AI hospital forecasting to reduce NHS waiting lists

    Hospitals will be able to predict daily A&E admissions weeks in advance using artificial intelligence software that analyses data including 111 calls and the weather. It is being introduced in 100 NHS hospital trusts today after trials showed it had an “impressive” ability to forecast daily admissions, broken down by age, up to three weeks in advance."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ai-hospital-forecasting-reduce-nhs-waiting-lists-nm9t568wg
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,201
    US congressman Jeff Fortenberry resigns after conviction for lying to FBI

    The Nebraska congressman Jeff Fortenberry has resigned from office after a California jury convicted him of lying to federal authorities about an illegal campaign donation from a foreign national.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/27/us-congressman-resigns-after-being-convicted-of-lying-to-fbi
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    Farooq said:

    No, I don't. But I have a sounds basis for thinking so. you operate within the law when the law is available as a practical remedy. When it comes to a genocidal maniac who is the head of a legion fascist fuckheads, then murder is the only practical response. The only other realistic alternative is letting him live, and that's worse.

    Contrast that with someone robbing corpses. A nasty business, very unpleasant. But is the world a better place for appointing yourself Judge Judy and executioner, and upon witnessing it dispensing the ultimate punishment? I think no, the world is better served not killing people for such actions. If your only choice is between a corpse robber going free or me becoming a murderer, I choose the corpse robber's freedom.
    I would kill, but it would need to be for something MUCH worse than seeing some stealing from a dead guy.
    You would almost certainly feel differently, if you were actually fighting in a war.

    It's all too easy to insist that one have clean hands - until one actually fights.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    edited March 2022

    Barry Pepper in 'Saving Private Ryan':
    "Well, what I mean by that, sir, is... if you was to put me and this here sniper rifle anywhere up to and including one mile of Adolf Hitler with a clear line of sight, sir... pack your bags, fellas, war's over. Amen."
    There would be have been nothing illegal, under English law, about assassinating Hitler, in WWII.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    Leon said:

    All very A Level Philosophy, well done, B-, the more interesting question is: would you, the officer, arrest the NCO who shot the corpse-robber? Given what the NCO had been through, I doubt I would. I’d probably have tutted, and moved on
    I am quite certain that I would not have arrested the NCO, had I been the officer.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507

    Yes the combined SF+SDLP vote is also pretty much the same as in the 2019 GE, ditto the alliance vote. I still feel that the Alliance surge will mainly damage the DUP though.

    On a bad night for the DUP they could get only one seat in Belfast N for example:

    SF 2 (-)
    DUP 1 (-1)
    SDLP 1 (-)
    Alliance 1 (+1)

    My eyes are also firmly on Belfast S and Lagan Valley.
    There are two Unionist seats in North Belfast, on this poll. The likeliest seat to go to Alliance is Sinn Fein or SDLP.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    rcs1000 said:

    You must read the Ian Toll trilogy on the Pacific War - it has a whole chapter on Japanese war crimes towards the end of the conflict. Really awful, scary stuff. The Japanese soldiers knew they were doomed, and so they decided 'fuck it, we'll kill and rape everyone.'
    The Imperial Japanese Army was sickeningly cruel. They deserved everything they got at the hands of US forces.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,201
    Trouble at the Dune/Coda awards Oscars show.

    Will Smith punches Chris Rock on stage
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-60897004
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    FF43 said:

    Wrong but ultimately right, I think. Biden's remarks are unhelpful because (a) no-one is quite clear what he means in a situation where absolute clarity is required; (b) it makes the argument about who is the Russian president rather than the unacceptable actions of the Russian state.

    He is ultimately right because Russia must be defeated, and Russians must believe they are defeated, to draw a line on unprovoked aggression against neighbouring countries and on systematic war crimes. In effect Russia cannot be defeated while Putin stays in power.
    There is no real distinction between Putin and the Russian state as far as decisions to take action are concerned. It was very clear that the invasion was his decision alone.
    There hasn’t been an argument about who is the Russian president for a good couple of decades.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    Farooq said:

    Putin needs defeated, but Putin isn't Russia. They could elbow him off a balcony tomorrow, and decide to pack up and go home, ready for a new era without anything more than Putin's skull being broken.
    He has remained quite popular, though.
    How much that might change as a result of this disastrous invasion is yet to be seen.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    Report out of Kharkiv.
    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/kharkiv-ukraine-suffers-putin-attack-russian-invasion-1326292/

    Unlike Mariupol, whose suffering is considerably greater, it is neither completely cut off, nor are there regular incursions by Russian troops, so @Luckyguy1983 can read in some detail what’s happening there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    Interesting interview with Zelensky, with some insight into his negotiating stance.
    https://twitter.com/natynettle/status/1508130753812606980
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,201
    ping said:

    Nice for us Deafos to have CODA win best picture at the Oscars. A bit of visibility for a chronically invisible disability that afflicts a surprisingly large % of the population to some degree.

    Credit to Apple, also. Not just for backing the film, but for the fantastic deaf accessibility they build into their products.

    Apple have genuinely made my quality of life a whole lot better since getting both an iPhone, and an iPhone compatible hearing aid.

    Well done apple.

    Three nominations: three Oscars.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536
    I’ve always thought Chris Rock is a dick.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    tlg86 said:

    I’ve always thought Chris Rock is a dick.

    He may be, but in this case Will Smith seems utterly to be in the wrong. And a bit of a violent thug as well.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Agree with TSE on this. Everytime Johnson tries to raise covid "success" (which is a myth) Labour and the good boys at Led by Donkeys will eviscerate him with party pics.

    Meanwhile, if you want a heart-warming read this morning about Ukrainian resistance to the invasion there's a brilliant piece in The Guardian about the specialist IT drone operators. In a horrible, deadly, war this will put a smile on your face.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/28/the-drone-operators-who-halted-the-russian-armoured-vehicles-heading-for-kyiv
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    I'm not exactly a fan of Biden right now and as many papers are suggesting, he's becoming something of a liability and a "doddery old fool".

    However, I can't actually see what's wrong with calling for Putin's removal? Surely that's exactly what we want and should be working for? Genuine question.

    Is the issue about inflaming Putin's wrath? If so, why the hell are we letting this ogre bully us all the time? Does no one in the west apart from Zelensky have the courage to stand up to Putin? If we don't then he will go on and on and on bullying.

    p.s. and, no, I'm not sitting in a Moscow department and no I'm not a Russian d̶o̶l̶l̶ troll.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Bellingcat, partnering with the BBC and @the_ins_ru, can reveal that popular Russian opposition leader Boris Nemtsov was closely followed by the same assassination squad that targeted Navalny and other opposition figures for 10 months prior to his murder

    The assassination team followed Nemtsov on multiple trips up until one week before his murder, when they switched targets to Nemtsov's close ally Vladimir Kara-Murza. Data used in this investigation was verified by the BBC.


    https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1508311603032338437
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited March 2022

    Does Putin pay you or what @Luckyguy1983?

    Can we please call a halt to this kind of thing? Just because someone posts an alternative perspective to the prevailing orthodoxy of the salivating armchair generals does not make them a Russian troll. This site would be much the poorer (and has been since the invasion) by the tiresome and childish 'outing' of people who may be broadening perspectives.

    And rcs, you stated baldly and without negotiation that there will not be a no fly zone. We still don't know that. War does strange things and I don't know how this is going to pan out, nor do you. Nor does anyone on here.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    He may be, but in this case Will Smith seems utterly to be in the wrong. And a bit of a violent thug as well.
    Rock made a "joke" about Smith's wife. It's one thing to be made fun of, it's quite another for someone you care about to be made fun of, especially about something that is not in her control.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    Heathener said:

    Can we please call a halt to this kind of thing? Just because someone posts an alternative perspective to the prevailing orthodoxy of the salivating armchair generals does not make them a Russian troll. This site would be much the poorer (and has been since the invasion) by the tiresome and childish 'outing' of people who may be broadening perspectives.

    And rcs, you stated baldly and without negotiation that there will not be a no fly zone. We still don't know that. War does strange things and I don't know how this is going to pan out, nor do you. Nor does anyone on here.
    Using terms like: "prevailing orthodoxy of the salivating armchair generals" is not a good way to persuade people you are not a troll.

    And people are perfectly free to 'broaden perspectives'. And others are perfectly free to say that they're stupidly excusing evil.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    tlg86 said:

    Rock made a "joke" about Smith's wife. It's one thing to be made fun of, it's quite another for someone you care about to be made fun of, especially about something that is not in her control.
    tlg86 said:

    Rock made a "joke" about Smith's wife. It's one thing to be made fun of, it's quite another for someone you care about to be made fun of, especially about something that is not in her control.
    Does that justify a violent attack? How many 'copycats' will comedians now be facing every time a joke offends?
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,628
    Heathener said:

    Agree with TSE on this. Everytime Johnson tries to raise covid "success" (which is a myth) Labour and the good boys at Led by Donkeys will eviscerate him with party pics.

    Meanwhile, if you want a heart-warming read this morning about Ukrainian resistance to the invasion there's a brilliant piece in The Guardian about the specialist IT drone operators. In a horrible, deadly, war this will put a smile on your face.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/28/the-drone-operators-who-halted-the-russian-armoured-vehicles-heading-for-kyiv

    You’re forgetting the brutal Marina Hyde columns and Susie Dent throwing ‘shade’ at Boris with her word of the day. Boris must be terrified of them. Part of the central dads official opposition along with the genius of Led By Donkeys.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,482
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: just writing up the ramble now. I wonder if they're going to fiddle with DRS lines at other circuits now.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,628
    tlg86 said:

    I’ve always thought Chris Rock is a dick.

    Same here. But twatting him on stage is inexcusable.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774
    edited March 2022
    FF43 said:

    I think the proposal was the EU would guarantee equivalence as long as the UK maintained alignment. This includes dynamic alignment. The UK could get off the train at any point, at the risk of losing equivalence.

    Frost was very opposed to an approach that went against the spirit of Brexit and preferred to do without equivalence from the get-go.
    That’s not equivalence - that’s dynamic alignment that they are calling “equivalence”.

    Equivalence is saying “we recognise you are a mature democracy with suitably high standards so do what you want and we reserve the right to change our minds if you do something silly”

    Dynamic alignment is saying “you will do what we tell you to do”

    See the difference?
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,628
    edited March 2022
    felix said:

    Does that justify a violent attack? How many 'copycats' will comedians now be facing every time a joke offends?
    I rarely agree with professional Northerner Kevin Maguire but he’s right on this. If it was his wife who had slapped him that is one thing but Smith was out of order.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,569
    Hello everyone; you wouldn't think we should be welcoming Spring here. Cold and foggy!

    I do agree with Heathener about the story about the drone operators in the Guardian. Positive, although whether it's future of warfare I doubt. The drones seem quite easy to block, although doing so also blocks ones own drones. At the moment, anyway.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774
    kjh said:

    Yes but the point is there is therefore not a technical solution for the vast majority, so for anyone to suggest there is, is nonsense.

    In my case I commonly did temporary exports pre the removal of controls. Not once did stuff go straight through. Normally only held up for an hour or so, but it was always very limited stuff, so god knows what a McLaren lorry or a Rolling Stones tour lorry goes through, and once it took 3 weeks for one item.
    I’m scratching my head here.

    There is a problem with the flow of goods.

    This solves the problem for the vast bulk of the goods.

    It does not - and does not try to - solve the problem for the vast majority of *traders*

    Your issue is not the problem that needs fixing - in fact the EU complained about the number of firms that the UK planned to include in the trusted trader scheme
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Sean_F said:

    There would be have been nothing illegal, under English law, about assassinating Hitler, in WWII.
    I was thinking mid 30s. Also the common law exclusion is for killing in the heart of war and exercise thereof which probably wouldn't apply to, say, putting arsenic in his tea
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    tlg86 said:

    Rock made a "joke" about Smith's wife. It's one thing to be made fun of, it's quite another for someone you care about to be made fun of, especially about something that is not in her control.
    This is the Oscars. The presenters make bad jokes about things and people. It's what you expect. If you don't want it, don't go.

    It is about escalation. A response would be to quietly fume and then use your own high-profile voice to respond. Or be the bigger man and do not respond. Or respond in private: "I really didn't appreciate that."

    What you do not is go on stage and hit someone. That's an escalation.

    It looks really bad for Will Smith. If he can get triggered that easily, how often is he triggered in his private life? His instinct is evidently towards violence.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited March 2022

    others are perfectly free to say that they're stupidly excusing evil.
    Yep but that's different from suggesting that they are a Russian troll or "paid by Putin". That's the part I object to. I have no issue with people disagreeing with my perspectives, or anyone else's.

    With regard to the salivating armchair generals, there has been a huge increase in the war rhetoric on here. Whilst appalled by the invasion, a certain coterie of mostly men seem to be pouring over every piece of military action and pouncing upon it, with lots of references to past military actions including WW2. As I mentioned the other day, it's like living inside that game of Diplomacy. Or, rather, it's like living inside one of those black and white war films that I assume were their staple Sunday afternoon viewings when they grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

    Despite my belief that we should back Zelensky and the people of Ukraine with an international No Fly Zone, I'm a pacifist. All the war talk makes for pretty grim reading, that's all.




  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774

    I doubt any apocalypse will happen overnight.

    I would encourage any Tory apparatchiks reading to avoid importing US food standards into the UK, though.
    Especially the cheese…
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    My question wrt calling for Putin's removal is answered here on the Beeb: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60895392

    Question: if the west successfully assassinated Putin, would the world be more or less stable?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    This is the Oscars. The presenters make bad jokes about things and people. It's what you expect. If you don't want it, don't go.

    It is about escalation. A response would be to quietly fume and then use your own high-profile voice to respond. Or be the bigger man and do not respond. Or respond in private: "I really didn't appreciate that."

    What you do not is go on stage and hit someone. That's an escalation.

    It looks really bad for Will Smith. If he can get triggered that easily, how often is he triggered in his private life? His instinct is evidently towards violence.
    Apparently there is a long-running feud between the two. Usually jokes at these things are made against the movie-star class as a whole. There's a skill to that sort of thing. Ricky Gervais can do it, Chris Rock evidently cannot.

    Smith was clearly upset with what he'd done and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,569

    This is the Oscars. The presenters make bad jokes about things and people. It's what you expect. If you don't want it, don't go.

    It is about escalation. A response would be to quietly fume and then use your own high-profile voice to respond. Or be the bigger man and do not respond. Or respond in private: "I really didn't appreciate that."

    What you do not is go on stage and hit someone. That's an escalation.

    It looks really bad for Will Smith. If he can get triggered that easily, how often is he triggered in his private life? His instinct is evidently towards violence.
    I'd agree, but Rock's 'joke' referred to Smith's wife's illness, an illness which is probably very depressing and distressing for a woman.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    Heathener said:

    Yep but that's different from suggesting that they are a Russian troll or "paid by Putin". That's the part I object to. I have no issue with people disagreeing with my perspectives, or anyone else's.

    With regard to the salivating armchair generals, there has been a huge increase in the war rhetoric on here. Whilst appalled by the invasion, a certain coterie of mostly men seem to be pouring over every piece of military action and pouncing upon it, with lots of references to past military actions including WW2. As I mentioned the other day, it's like living inside that game of Diplomacy. Or, rather, it's like living inside one of those black and white war films that I assumed were their staple Sunday afternoon viewings when they grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

    Despite my belief that we should back Zelensky and the people of Ukraine with an international No Fly Zone, I'm a pacifist. All the war talk makes for pretty grim reading, that's all.
    Of course there's been an increase in war rhetoric. There's a hot war going on, and one that people feel passionately about for a variety of reasons: it's a clear case of good versus evil, the plucky underdog is doing surprisingly well, and it is close to home.

    In addition, the war could spread and affect us all. People are frightened and trying to understand it.

    So yes, people are discussing the war. And it's perfectly correct for them to do so.

    I also cannot see *any* logic in calling for a NFZ and declaring yourself a pacifist - since an NFZ would be a massive escalation in the conflict.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373

    I'd agree, but Rock's 'joke' referred to Smith's wife's illness, an illness which is probably very depressing and distressing for a woman.
    Did it? I listened to it, but didn't know about the illness and didn't get the reference. What is it?

    IMO it *still* doesn't excuse what Smith did. Especially as he got the perfect opportunity a while later to take Rock to task.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    Did it? I listened to it, but didn't know about the illness and didn't get the reference. What is it?

    IMO it *still* doesn't excuse what Smith did. Especially as he got the perfect opportunity a while later to take Rock to task.
    She has alopecia.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    tlg86 said:

    Apparently there is a long-running feud between the two. Usually jokes at these things are made against the movie-star class as a whole. There's a skill to that sort of thing. Ricky Gervais can do it, Chris Rock evidently cannot.

    Smith was clearly upset with what he'd done and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    Why? If he does that because of a bad joke, he'd do it for anything. And remember, he's the 'talent'.

    Being 'upset' isn't a reason to go on stage and hit someone, when you are not being threatened.

    (it would not surprise me if this causes other stories to come out of the woodwork.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,314
    tlg86 said:

    Apparently there is a long-running feud between the two. Usually jokes at these things are made against the movie-star class as a whole. There's a skill to that sort of thing. Ricky Gervais can do it, Chris Rock evidently cannot.

    Smith was clearly upset with what he'd done and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    If I were a "movie star" (thank heavens I'm not) I would dread* going to the Oscars not look forward to it. I'd only grudgingly go out of a sense of industry duty.

    I feel the same way about most awards dinners: facile, banal and painfully tedious but with rictus smiles being mandatory for hours throughout.

    (*But, then again, maybe that explains why I'm not a movie star.)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,569

    Did it? I listened to it, but didn't know about the illness and didn't get the reference. What is it?

    IMO it *still* doesn't excuse what Smith did. Especially as he got the perfect opportunity a while later to take Rock to task.
    Alopecia, and Rock compared it to a GI 'buzzcut', as worn by Demi Moore in GI Jane.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    tlg86 said:

    She has alopecia.
    Ah thanks, didn't know. When I watched it, I didn't get any impression Rock was talking about anything like that. It just seemed to be about that brilliantly fantastic film GI Joe, but I can now see a connection.

    Still doesn't excuse Smith though: just makes Chris Rock into a prat. Something which should not surprise anyone...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    If I were a "movie star" (thank heavens I'm not) I would dread* going to the Oscars not look forward to it. I'd only grudgingly go out of a sense of industry duty.

    I feel the same way about most awards dinners: facile, banal and painfully tedious but with rictus smiles being mandatory for hours throughout.

    (*But, then again, maybe that explains why I'm not a movie star.)
    Yes, my idea of hell. I've seen footage from old Oscars where it used to be quite a serious affair. The person presenting the award would come on stage and wax lyrical about the talent and then say "and the winner is..."

    Nowadays it's very political and not very serious.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774

    US congressman Jeff Fortenberry resigns after conviction for lying to FBI

    The Nebraska congressman Jeff Fortenberry has resigned from office after a California jury convicted him of lying to federal authorities about an illegal campaign donation from a foreign national.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/27/us-congressman-resigns-after-being-convicted-of-lying-to-fbi

    Resigning over dodgy campaign donations?

    It’ll never catch on over here!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Heathener said:

    Yep but that's different from suggesting that they are a Russian troll or "paid by Putin". That's the part I object to. I have no issue with people disagreeing with my perspectives, or anyone else's.

    With regard to the salivating armchair generals, there has been a huge increase in the war rhetoric on here. Whilst appalled by the invasion, a certain coterie of mostly men seem to be pouring over every piece of military action and pouncing upon it, with lots of references to past military actions including WW2. As I mentioned the other day, it's like living inside that game of Diplomacy. Or, rather, it's like living inside one of those black and white war films that I assume were their staple Sunday afternoon viewings when they grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

    Despite my belief that we should back Zelensky and the people of Ukraine with an international No Fly Zone, I'm a pacifist. All the war talk makes for pretty grim reading, that's all.
    Yes, well, like most things present battles are best understood by reference to historical battles. Also, your persona is slipping. Two weeks ago you were appalled by the cowardice of nato and the West for not taking the war to Putin.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774
    Sean_F said:

    I am quite certain that I would not have arrested the NCO, had I been the officer.
    Because he had a gun and had demonstrated willingness to use it?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    edited March 2022


    I also cannot see *any* logic in calling for a NFZ and declaring yourself a pacifist - since an NFZ would be a massive escalation in the conflict.
    Pragmatism, not logic, are necessary in a situation where an aggressor has violently assaulted someone or an entire people. The old cliche about standing back and watching whilst a soldier rapes your wife etc.

    And it's the kind of pragmatism you need because it ultimately saves more lives. Had the bomb plot against Hitler succeeded in June 1944 it would have saved, what, 2 million other lives (many of them Jewish)?* So I am a pacifist in principle but have the pragmatic common sense to accept that sometimes you have to act.

    I'm not sure that a No Fly Zone will instantly represent a "massive escalation" in the conflict and it does smack to me of NIMBYism. Because the people who are getting bombed into oblivion are not 'us', or not members of this or that club, we're not going to their aid. They are still our fellow human beings and they are calling for our help. Because we are cowering in fear at the consequences we won't do so. That's how bullies win. What Putin has done is an act of unspeakable evil.

    And I'm not convinced that our present course is going to lead to deescalation. If, as seems likely, Putin's forces are grinding to a halt then that might make Putin even more dangerous. A cornered animal and all that.

    I go back to the Cuban missile crisis. The language Kruschev understood was being stood up to. Perhaps if we took a stronger stance with Putin we would find a quicker route to the negotiating table and save more innocent lives in Ukraine.

    It's a theory, that's all.


    * By the way I'm pretty sure Leon is wrong when he says Churchill backed the plot. IIRC from reading about it, Churchill did not want to get involved when it was first mooted.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    IshmaelZ said:

    Yes, well, like most things present battles are best understood by reference to historical battles. Also, your persona is slipping. Two weeks ago you were appalled by the cowardice of nato and the West for not taking the war to Putin.

    There's no doubt that reading PB's military tacticians on the war has been particularly enlightening.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    TOPPING said:

    PB's military tacticians
    I'm assuming that's sarcastic.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    IshmaelZ said:

    Two weeks ago you were appalled by the cowardice of nato and the West for not taking the war to Putin.

    No change. Read my response below.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I see the snivelling little Assad apologist finally went full mask off in the thread overnight.

    I'd had a personal bet with myself and thought they'd last 3 weeks tops before pulling out the conspiracy theories.

    They managed to just about hold it together on the maternity hospital bombing despite veeringly dangerously close.

    Well done for going over a month.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,314
    TOPPING said:

    There's no doubt that reading PB's military tacticians on the war has been particularly enlightening.
    What's been particularly interesting for me is how the insight my ex-Royal Navy captain friend provided - that excellent people management was crucial for military success and integrated C&C of combined operations - has been vindicated.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,085
    Alistair said:

    I see the snivelling little Assad apologist finally went full mask off in the thread overnight.

    I'd had a personal bet with myself and thought they'd last 3 weeks tops before pulling out the conspiracy theories.

    They managed to just about hold it together on the maternity hospital bombing despite veeringly dangerously close.

    Well done for going over a month.

    I don't know to what you're referring, and don't want to spend time reading back, but this is just the kind of post which demeans this site.

    Alternative perspectives are okay. This sort of vile Ad Hominem is not. In my opinion.

    Clean it up folks.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,569

    What's been particularly interesting for me is how the insight my ex-Royal Navy captain friend provided - that excellent people management was crucial for military success and integrated C&C of combined operations - has been vindicated.
    See C4's programme on the Falklands, last night.

    Did anyone watch the one of Edward VIII, just before it? Recorded, chez Cole, to watch today.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Heathener said:

    Pragmatism, not logic, are necessary in a situation where an aggressor has violently assaulted someone or an entire people. The old cliche about standing back and watching whilst a soldier rapes your wife etc.

    And it's the kind of pragmatism you need because it ultimately saves more lives. Had the bomb plot against Hitler succeeded in June 1944 it would have saved, what, 2 million other lives (many of them Jewish)?* So I am a pacifist in principle but have the pragmatic common sense to accept that sometimes you have to act.

    I'm not sure that a No Fly Zone will instantly represent a "massive escalation" in the conflict and it does smack to me of NIMBYism. Because the people who are getting bombed into oblivion are not 'us', or not members of this or that club, we're not going to their aid. They are still our fellow human beings and they are calling for our help. Because we are cowering in fear at the consequences we won't do so. That's how bullies win. What Putin has done is an act of unspeakable evil.

    And I'm not convinced that our present course is going to lead to deescalation. If, as seems likely, Putin's forces are grinding to a halt then that might make Putin even more dangerous. A cornered animal and all that.

    I go back to the Cuban missile crisis. The language Kruschev understood was being stood up to. Perhaps if we took a stronger stance with Putin we would find a quicker route to the negotiating table and save more innocent lives in Ukraine.

    It's a theory, that's all.


    * By the way I'm pretty sure Leon is wrong when he says Churchill backed the plot. IIRC from reading about it, Churchill did not want to get involved when it was first mooted.
    So, now we are allowed to refer to ww2?

    Confusing
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    Heathener said:

    Pragmatism, not logic, are necessary in a situation where an aggressor has violently assaulted someone or an entire people. The old cliche about standing back and watching whilst a soldier rapes your wife etc.

    And it's the kind of pragmatism you need because it ultimately saves more lives. Had the bomb plot against Hitler succeeded in June 1944 it would have saved, what, 2 million other lives (many of them Jewish)?* So I am a pacifist in principle but have the pragmatic common sense to accept that sometimes you have to act.

    I'm not sure that a No Fly Zone will instantly represent a "massive escalation" in the conflict and it does smack to me of NIMBYism. Because the people who are getting bombed into oblivion are not 'us', or not members of this or that club, we're not going to their aid. They are still our fellow human beings and they are calling for our help. Because we are cowering in fear at the consequences we won't do so. That's how bullies win. What Putin has done is an act of unspeakable evil.

    And I'm not convinced that our present course is going to lead to deescalation. If, as seems likely, Putin's forces are grinding to a halt then that might make Putin even more dangerous. A cornered animal and all that.

    I go back to the Cuban missile crisis. The language Kruschev understood was being stood up to. Perhaps if we took a stronger stance with Putin we would find a quicker route to the negotiating table and save more innocent lives in Ukraine.

    It's a theory, that's all.


    * By the way I'm pretty sure Leon is wrong when he says Churchill backed the plot. IIRC from reading about it, Churchill did not want to get involved when it was first mooted.
    A NFZ would require the RAF hitting targets inside Russian territory. Explain how that isn't an escalation. Thanks.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823

    A life tip: don't go around hitting people just because they're an ass.
    Nah, that's not a good tip. Maybe if you're one of life's doormats.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,850

    Did it? I listened to it, but didn't know about the illness and didn't get the reference. What is it?

    IMO it *still* doesn't excuse what Smith did. Especially as he got the perfect opportunity a while later to take Rock to task.
    I think Rock got he deserved in the old school way. Maybe the Oscars can get back to being about film and not the presenters turning it into a poor comedy stand up
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited March 2022
    MaxPB said:

    Nah, that's not a good tip. Maybe if you're one of life's doormats.
    What a deeply unpleasant person you are.

    What is it about this site? It seems to attract more than its fair share of violent right wing thugs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    MaxPB said:

    Nah, that's not a good tip. Maybe if you're one of life's doormats.
    LOL. No.

    I don't need to big myself up by pretending I'd deck anyone who annoys me.

    Tell me, do you manage people? If so, do you hit or bully them if they're an ass?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,850
    ping said:

    What a deeply unpleasant person you are.

    What is it about this site? It seems to attract more than it’s fair share of violent right wing thugs.
    Wouldn't you come out swinging if somebody insulted your wife in front of millions and she Was in the audience being humiliated? It's not right wing its being human
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    Heathener said:

    I don't know to what you're referring, and don't want to spend time reading back, but this is just the kind of post which demeans this site.

    Alternative perspectives are okay. This sort of vile Ad Hominem is not. In my opinion.

    Clean it up folks.
    Someone deprecating ad hominem might profitably refrain from frequently resorting to it themselves.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,314

    LOL. No.

    I don't need to big myself up by pretending I'd deck anyone who annoys me.

    Tell me, do you manage people? If so, do you hit or bully them if they're an ass?
    I wouldn't have hit Rock but if he'd made a public joke about my wife - who had a medical condition - I might have left my seat and walked out; I'd have been very upset and would certainly have let him know what I thought about it later.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,850
    And if anyone just equates punching with good reason to being right wing then look at Prescott. He was right to to swing back
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,320
    ping said:

    What a deeply unpleasant person you are.

    What is it about this site? It seems to attract more than its fair share of violent right wing thugs.
    I'm left wing and I am quite violent. Although not to the degree I was as a younger man. Age has dimmed the flame somewhat.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    MaxPB said:

    Nah, that's not a good tip. Maybe if you're one of life's doormats.
    There's a good analogy in there somewhere.

    What if you were out with your wife and a tasty geezer insulted her. Quite handy yourself? Then what about 10 tasty geezers.

    Will Smith is four inches taller than Chris Rock. Plus he must have learned something when filming Ali.

    In a violent world bullies get their own way and those who condone violence and shout the odds are usually on the stronger/bigger side. They are all at sea when someone bigger or stronger starts doing the same thing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373

    Wouldn't you come out swinging if somebody insulted your wife in front of millions and she Was in the audience being humiliated? It's not right wing its being human
    Speaking for myself, no, I wouldn't. Particularly if I'm a big star with a very loud voice such as Will Smith - they have many other, better, routes to resolving disputes. And again I mention the forum they were in.

    Violence is bad. It's sad that this has to be explained to so many people on here, as it seems kind-of obvious. But it seems that some people see violence as the perfect response to anything, even verbal abuse. I know 'toxic masculinity' will trigger some people, but it seems a good example of it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    Wouldn't you come out swinging if somebody insulted your wife in front of millions and she Was in the audience being humiliated? It's not right wing its being human
    What if it was Tyson Fury.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    edited March 2022

    I wouldn't have hit Rock but if he'd made a public joke about my wife - who had a medical condition - I might have left my seat and walked out; I'd have been very upset and would certainly have let him know what I thought about it later.
    That was my thought, too. Would have made the best actor presentation interesting.

    Note he did apologise for his behaviour.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,219

    Using terms like: "prevailing orthodoxy of the salivating armchair generals" is not a good way to persuade people you are not a troll.

    And people are perfectly free to 'broaden perspectives'. And others are perfectly free to say that they're stupidly excusing evil.
    Incidentally, if someone is using a VPN, and it exits to a fixed IP that is actually the IP of a compromised PC, then that person has a very bad security problem.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,323
    IshmaelZ said:

    So, now we are allowed to refer to ww2?

    Confusing
    Probably 2 Heatheners arguing with each other? Either that or Heathener is a very confused person.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373

    I wouldn't have hit Rock but if he'd made a public joke about my wife - who had a medical condition - I might have left my seat and walked out; I'd have been very upset and would certainly have let him know what I thought about it later.
    Yes, that would have been a much better route to handle it. Or go on stage and just tell Chris Rock he is out of order.

    The sad thing is, there will be kids who look up to Smith who will now think this is okay.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    Incidentally, if someone is using a VPN, and it exits to a fixed IP that is actually the IP of a compromised PC, then that person has a very bad security problem.
    What is a compromised PC and how big is the problem.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279

    Wouldn't you come out swinging if somebody insulted your wife in front of millions and she Was in the audience being humiliated? It's not right wing its being human
    No - it's a form of sexism. My wife - believe me - can stick up for herself. It's all about Smith's ego.

    Rock was making a joke. Sticks and stones etc.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,814
    Top work from the Fresh Prince, smacking the boredom out of the annual smugfest. You punch down with your jokes often enough and you gotta expect one’s going to come back and hit you on the chin.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774

    Incidentally, if someone is using a VPN, and it exits to a fixed IP that is actually the IP of a compromised PC, then that person has a very bad security problem.
    What if they are doing deliberately to protect someone very important at Westminster?

    🤷‍♂️
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,373
    Dura_Ace said:

    I'm left wing and I am quite violent. Although not to the degree I was as a younger man. Age has dimmed the flame somewhat.
    Violence is not a left- or right- wing thing. It is a power thing - and both left and right quite like power, especially when you get to the extremes.

    And BTW, a single punch can easily have tragic consequences:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/man-killed-single-punch-video-b2017742.html
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-01-24/man-arrested-after-death-of-man-from-single-punch-in-social-club

    etc, etc.

    That doesn't mean you shouldn't defend yourself if you are physically attacked: just that a violent response to verbal could cause more problems than it 'solves'.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Looks like Rebel Wilson got off lightly:

    Baftas 2022 host Rebel Wilson cracked a joke about Will Smith and Jada Pinkett-Smith’s much-publicised open relationship, after he won the award for Leading Actor on Sunday night (13 March).

    Smith won the prize for his performance in King Richard as Richard Williams, the father of tennis stars Venus and Serena Williams.

    He was absent from the ceremony, so the film’s director Reinaldo Marcus Green accepted the award on his behalf.

    Joking about Smith’s win, Wilson said she thought his “best performance in the past year was being OK with all his wife’s boyfriends”.

    When the crowd groaned, she said: “Come on, he never showed up!”


    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/baftas-2022-will-smith-rebel-wilson-b2034953.html?amp
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774

    Looks like Rebel Wilson got off lightly:

    Baftas 2022 host Rebel Wilson cracked a joke about Will Smith and Jada Pinkett-Smith’s much-publicised open relationship, after he won the award for Leading Actor on Sunday night (13 March).

    Smith won the prize for his performance in King Richard as Richard Williams, the father of tennis stars Venus and Serena Williams.

    He was absent from the ceremony, so the film’s director Reinaldo Marcus Green accepted the award on his behalf.

    Joking about Smith’s win, Wilson said she thought his “best performance in the past year was being OK with all his wife’s boyfriends”.

    When the crowd groaned, she said: “Come on, he never showed up!”


    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/baftas-2022-will-smith-rebel-wilson-b2034953.html?amp

    I think the difference there is she was criticising their life choices; Rock criticised a medical condition.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    I think the difference there is she was criticising their life choices; Rock criticised a medical condition.
    And the "Come on, he never showed up" acknowledges that it is a bit of a low blow.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,774
    tlg86 said:

    And the "Come on, he never showed up" acknowledges that it is a bit of a low blow.
    I think that’s a second tap on the joke…
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,850

    Violence is not a left- or right- wing thing. It is a power thing - and both left and right quite like power, especially when you get to the extremes.

    And BTW, a single punch can easily have tragic consequences:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/man-killed-single-punch-video-b2017742.html
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-01-24/man-arrested-after-death-of-man-from-single-punch-in-social-club

    etc, etc.

    That doesn't mean you shouldn't defend yourself if you are physically attacked: just that a violent response to verbal could cause more problems than it 'solves'.
    i am not sure you should get so moral when you advocate strongly weapons to Ukraine which dont just have a small chance of killing people but a whopping great one. TBH I often argue against the public grain on many things but feel I am taking the easy option here in arguing that he was justified in decking him as it woudl be overwhelmingly in the Court of Public opinion that it was the right thing to do . So I admire you taking the less easy side of this
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,850
    Stocky said:

    No - it's a form of sexism. My wife - believe me - can stick up for herself. It's all about Smith's ego.

    Rock was making a joke. Sticks and stones etc.
    arr sexism is now sticking up for your wife is it?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,181
    Just checking, am I supposed to know who Will Smith is married to? Or care?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    arr sexism is now sticking up for your wife is it?
    Pls answer the question. Tyson Fury is on stage making jokes about your wife to a large audience. What's your next move.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,628

    arr sexism is now sticking up for your wife is it?
    Sexism or fragile toxic masculinity. It is one or the other.
This discussion has been closed.