YBarddCwsc said:

ydoethur said:

I have never heard the Irish Potato Famine so called, although I will take your word for it you have.

It is mandated in a number of US states (e.g., Mass.) to be taught in high schools as an example of a genocide.

kjh said:

MoonRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

Aslan said:

JosiasJessop said:

RochdalePioneers said:

JosiasJessop said:

RochdalePioneers said:

JosiasJessop said:

The reaction of some of the left on here would be laughable if it was not horrible: "Of course Russia is behaving badly, but we should just let them do what they want because Johnson is in charge. And we should stop poking Russia by telling them not to invade. Instead we should just remain silent and tut-tut behind our hands."

I do wonder if some om here secretly quite like the idea of Russia invading ...

Who are you talking about???

Nick Palmer especially, a couple of others and, sadly, yourself - at least that's the way it reads.

And no, before anyone says, I do not want troops on the ground. But I do think that Russia grabbing (or trying to grab) substantial portions of Ukraine would be very bad, not just for Ukraine, but for neighbouring countries, Europe, and ourselves.

Russia (and prominent Russians) have had various sanctions placed on them for years. They haven't worked, or dissuaded them from taking evil paths. Threatening sanctions and their money alone probably will not work this time either. So we need to try something else.

Also remember that the UK has suffered uniquely from Putin's aggression in the Litvinenko and Salisbury cases.

You are being silly. "we should let them do what they want because Johnson is in charge" is preposterous - none of us are saying anything remotely close to that. And I "secretly quite like the idea of Russia invading"?

Really?

Some posts do seem to indicate that the fact Johnson is in charge is related to their view on Ukraine, yes.

And you obviously missed Nick Palmer's (ahem) excellent views on how we were causing problems by 'poking' Russia.

As for your own views: I did say sadly. But as I detail above, it would not deter Russian aggression. They should be part of a wider package, but that alone would do nothing. You're a sensible chap; you know that. So why are you proposing something that won't work?

You have to remember Nick Palmer is a former communist who supported Jeremy Corbyn. He is instinctively anti-Western and sympathetic to those opposing the West.

You have to also remember Nick Palmer is also a former New Labour MP who supported Tony Blair and George W Bush when he voted for the Iraq War and Afganistan War after 9/11 and now supports Starmer's pro Nato stance on Putin. Nick is not anti western, just a party loyalist like me!

Nick, If you read this post from HY and decide to sue, I’m sure some on PB will have a whip round for you.

I agree. The idea we should be nice to one another should be strongly discouraged.

Nigelb said:

MoonRabbit said:

Nigelb said:

MoonRabbit said:

CarlottaVance said:

Breaking: Ukraine, the UK and Poland announce a creation of a trilateral alliance during the UK foreign secretary @trussliz visit to Kyiv. Countries will cooperate in the areas of defense, economy, trade and countering disinformation. More information to follow soon

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1494325742582128657

Poland and Ukraine can finally resolve this campaign of disinformation thanks to Boris and Truss, this has to be a positive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

It's a fact that pretty well all of the territories sequentially occupied by Stalin and Hitler saw massacres perpetrated by some of the inhabitants of those territories.

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

Mango said:

Malmesbury said:

glw said:

Slackbladder said:

Is it me, or is Social Media just s***.

Liz Truss put up a serious post about Russia and Ukraine, and the replies are nothing but jibes attack and stupid jokes...

It is sad to see so many essentially cheering on Russian games and misogyny because they don't like the Tories. You can dislike Truss without parroting the Kremlin.

I've encountered Tankies who believe that since the West backed the non-Serbian sides in the Yugoslav Wars, that this meant the Serbs were justified in what they did.

By justified, they use the "only x died at" excuse for this -



Once you have done full genocide denial, a bit of Putin snuggling must come easy.

Ermm, quite a few of those genocide deniers are right wingers now. Aided by the LM/Spiked crew. New members of the Lords. Close (recently-resigned) advisers of Johnson. They are true vermin.

But right wingers have been remarkably silent about them for a long time.

True - but listen to the narrative that the Stop The War type are selling

- Ukrainians are all fascists
- Massacres in 1943 justify Russia invading today
- etc etc

Its the same arguments as were used to justify the Serbs....

it's like mould. Keeps growing back.

To be honest though, as I read through the link to 1943 Poet Laureate posted yesterday, I felt like I didn’t like Ukrainian nationalists. It wasn’t that they were fighting, there was no justification for the crime of ethnic cleansing 😕

Being very honest here, it had coloured my views when todays Ukraine nationalists came on the news afterwards. And I’m not even Polish.

If you look at the history of WWII, inhabitants of every country serially occupied by Stalin and Hitler committed appalling massacres.

It doesn’t begin to excuse the atrocities, but it suggests something that’s not particular to a given nation, or nationalist movement is going on.

It’s fair to say. But it is I am upset by reading about all of it done by all of them, especially 100K women and children tortured and murdered for ethic cleanse, and later generation of same Nationalists won’t call it out.

But we read them sequentially one by one.

Also interesting you quote post I almost immediately deleted, having reflected. I would now add though, sacking Eurovision singer for one visit to Crimea doesn’t sound too tolerant, from people regarding the land she visited and everyone in it as their own 😕

I don’t think anyone’s comfortable with it.
And you’ll see other countries (and I think particularly the former communist satellites ?) having much the same difficulty in coming to terms with their wartime pasts. Latvia, for example.

Perhaps we’re not so wildly different in that respect when you consider our reluctance to deal with some of our past ?

Leon said:

Gallowgate said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Thank Fuck We Are Out Of The EU, volume 296

The European Parliament is in favour of 2nd votes without enacting the 1st, just like Remoaner Trumpites

‘Moreover, a referendum to confirm the final decision can be an important democratic safeguard - crucial in case of a “no deal” withdrawal, they say.’

https://twitter.com/europarl_en/status/1493903546428887040?s=21

How can more votes be anything other than more democracy?

Absolutely, as long as Leave also gets a second vote, if we so happen to vote Remain in the first vote, on the basis that Remainers are wankers, or something

Somehow I doubt the European Parliament will be encouraging "more democracy" in THAT direction

This craic is so dreary. Christ.

Don't blame me, blame the MEPs at Strasbourg. They were the ones that had a vote today condemning Brexit and Brexit voters. They are the ones who Can't Let Go

ydoethur said:

Malmesbury said:

ydoethur said:

YBarddCwsc said:

ydoethur said:

I have never heard the Irish Potato Famine so called, although I will take your word for it you have.

It is mandated in a number of US states (e.g., Mass.) to be taught in high schools as an example of a genocide.

So, what you're saying is that several states in America have schooling systems run by retarded fanatics who don't have a clue what they're talking about?

Well, that's hardly news. I mean, lots of them haven't quite got their heads round evolution yet.

Not that we can talk in light of this morning's bizarre announcement from the drunken lunatics at the DfE that it's illegal to teach history in this country.

Have they banned teaching about Tulsa - I recall that some "patriots" were arguing for that....

I have no idea. They've just said that we can't teach opinions in teaching history. Only facts.

Apparently unaware that professional historians spend much of their time considering what different opinions people have put forward based on those facts.

These are the idiots who came up with the new history a-level, which makes it unsurprising that it's such a bloody awful qualification and no preparation at all for degree level.

Farooq said:

Leon said:

Farooq said:

Malmesbury said:

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

Aslan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

JosiasJessop said:

RochdalePioneers said:

JosiasJessop said:

RochdalePioneers said:

JosiasJessop said:

The reaction of some of the left on here would be laughable if it was not horrible: "Of course Russia is behaving badly, but we should just let them do what they want because Johnson is in charge. And we should stop poking Russia by telling them not to invade. Instead we should just remain silent and tut-tut behind our hands."

I do wonder if some om here secretly quite like the idea of Russia invading ...

Who are you talking about???

Nick Palmer especially, a couple of others and, sadly, yourself - at least that's the way it reads.

And no, before anyone says, I do not want troops on the ground. But I do think that Russia grabbing (or trying to grab) substantial portions of Ukraine would be very bad, not just for Ukraine, but for neighbouring countries, Europe, and ourselves.

Russia (and prominent Russians) have had various sanctions placed on them for years. They haven't worked, or dissuaded them from taking evil paths. Threatening sanctions and their money alone probably will not work this time either. So we need to try something else.

Also remember that the UK has suffered uniquely from Putin's aggression in the Litvinenko and Salisbury cases.

You are being silly. "we should let them do what they want because Johnson is in charge" is preposterous - none of us are saying anything remotely close to that. And I "secretly quite like the idea of Russia invading"?

Really?

Some posts do seem to indicate that the fact Johnson is in charge is related to their view on Ukraine, yes.

And you obviously missed Nick Palmer's (ahem) excellent views on how we were causing problems by 'poking' Russia.

As for your own views: I did say sadly. But as I detail above, it would not deter Russian aggression. They should be part of a wider package, but that alone would do nothing. You're a sensible chap; you know that. So why are you proposing something that won't work?

Because there is no military solution here. If Putin wants to invade he will invade - unless NATO is prepared to engage them militarily. And we simply are not. I've been saying this for weeks - the notion that our collected sabre-rattling would have us potentially go to war with Russia over Ukraine is laughable.

Is Britain prepared to see Russian bombers flatten our homes because Putin wants bits of Ukraine? Is Germany? France? And thats just a conventional war before some idiot decides we need to threaten worse.

So the collected huffing and puffing is counter-productive. There is no military solution here so all we can offer is economic and diplomatic pain. That should have been our focus - money, assets and gas. Again, it isn't a Johnson-specific criticism as he isn't the only one at it and his predecessors would have done the same. What is Johnson-specific is our lack of diplomatic umph post Brexit and Kermit the Frog, and our lack of nous doing stupid like sending the cosplay Queen to Moscow to embarrass us further.

As far as I can tell, the appeasers are unwilling to even inflict the necessary pain to Russian access to SWIFT and gas exports.

And once again, repeatedly, the UK, US and others has stated that they will not intervene with direct military action.

They will send military aid, and will enforce sanctions against Russia if it invades.

It seems to upset some people that we aren't going to go to war.

Yes. It does. But shouldn’t it? We are building up only to stop overspill. After all the talk of valuing sovereignty, self determination, the danger of letting bullies get away with anything - we will be just millimetres away on map watching - watching sovereignty torn to shreds, self determination chopped up with blood everywhere.

Politically if Putin goes in, and NATO forces so close and watching, and the voters of Britain and USA watching their news, like watching Ukrainian bull slaughtered in bullfight. it’s an utter electoral disaster for Boris and Biden. People will never understand it.

That’s why people already upset?

Well, it's the Ukrainians choice to defend their country.

We should support it.

I don't think there is any taste for war with Russia over this. Plenty for the Ukrainians giving Putin a bloody nose with our weapons, though.

“ Plenty for the Ukrainians giving Putin a bloody nose with our weapons, though. “

That’s the point Malmsy, at what expense? If ultimately that Ukraine government, and their dream of joining EU and NATO for more wealth and living standards and security chopped down like that bull in the bull ring.

Whilst we stood by. Watching. Don’t underestimate how utterly finished and discredited for ever Boris and Biden will be if Putin goes in, and Ukraine loses lives, leaders and it’s dream.

BIG BUT IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS is it really risking world war three to promise air support, no fly zone and put troops on ground - or is that merely what needed for a workable deterrent, that works by saying to ‘Putin, no, not this time, fuck off

I think you overestimate how much Ukraine defeated by Russia will be seen as a defeat for the Western powers.

The only workable deterrent would be for the Ukrainians to have kept their nuclear weapons.

Something that every country with a cooling pond full of old fuel rods is thinking about now.

Yes, this situation is a deterrent against non-proliferation for sure. Even more so if Putin does actually decide to invade even more of Ukraine than he already has. I don't want a world where 50 countries have nukes, which is why it's incumbent on those of us to help defend those countries that don't, if asked.

I really don't see more than two options for non-nuclear powers:
1. We rely on security guarantees from better armed countries, or
2. We take out our own insurance policy

Well, I guess:

3. Just hope

And yet the SNP quaintly wants us/Scotland to abandon Trident, in a world where non-nuclear powers can be clearly bullied and menaced into subjugation

No one is invading North Korea, I notice

Incidentally, re the SNP policy on nukes, are they also asking America to remove its NATO nuclear umbrella over Scotland? Or is the SNP's pose just putrid hypocrisy, and they still want nuke protection, but they want to have the moral virtue of being pro-disarmament without the awkward consequences of being unarmed?

Asking for a friendly co-nation, south of Coldstream

I don't support the SNP's policy on nuclear weapons.
Anti-nuke opinion seems pretty commonplace in Scotland, but I wouldn't give them up unilaterally.

Andy_JS said:

Plymouth is forecast to reach 91 mph winds tomorrow, the highest I've found so far.

Scott_xP said:

👀 “Whitehall officials used to be accused of “gold plating” Brussels regulations. Brexit is estimated to have required a civil service army of 50,000 new officials, more than the entire central bureaucracy of the EU in Brussels.” https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/17/brexit-life-outside-single-market-utter-disaster

TOPPING said:

@Leon complaining about people here banging on about Brexit while telling us of a vote in the European parliament that I'm pretty certain precisely zero people on this site knew or cared about is for me a highlight of the day.
.

TOPPING said:

@Leon complaining about people here banging on about Brexit while telling us of a vote in the European parliament that I'm pretty certain precisely zero people on this site knew or cared about is for me a highlight of the day.
.

ydoethur said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

ydoethur said:

YBarddCwsc said:

ydoethur said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Farooq said:

YBarddCwsc said:

rcs1000 said:

Farooq said:

RochdalePioneers said:

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

MoonRabbit said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

pigeon said:

RochdalePioneers said:

CarlottaVance said:

Breaking: Ukraine, the UK and Poland announce a creation of a trilateral alliance during the UK foreign secretary @trussliz visit to Kyiv. Countries will cooperate in the areas of defense, economy, trade and countering disinformation. More information to follow soon

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1494325742582128657

We've done what? That's fucking mental.

Is it? That rather depends on what the terms of the arrangement are.

UK standing with Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic States in a way France and Germany are not

Yes you have hit the nail on the head Big G. That’s the mental bit. We need to be standing, voicing and acting in Union on these things don’t we?

Why is that mental?

Or should we just offer Putin Schleswig-Holstein, for traditions sake?

Because if his plan all along is to split - first making us gas junkies, then sabre rattling - where there is more impact us all acting as one against him, it means he’s winning. Do you see my point?

Well, unanimity in sacrificing Ukraine will only mean that Putin moves onto the Baltics. Ask @Cicero....

Unanimity is nice. But stopping people from re-drawing maps with guns is more important.

If we are going to live in a world where re-drawing the maps with guns is cool, I have a list of territorial demands of my own.

Don't worry - they are absolutely my last set of demands.

If Putin’s design is to split us - like with how much money and resources Putin pumped into cheap gas pipelines and allegedly into securing Brexit vote he wanted, and now people as moderate and sensible as Big G are posting on here delighted we are split from EU allies, Putin’s useful idiots and traitors - straight away I’m not comfortable with that. We shouldn’t be should we? If What is ranged against him is weaker going forward?

Are we not influencing France and Germany enough because we’ve brexited? Genuine question that and deserves more than insults when asked.

Putin has spent a long time and a lot of money undermining western societies. Having us all fighting with each other is precisely what his money was trying to achieve.

This is true, which is why over this I tend to think twice over dishing criticism too liberally over this issue. I think the UK has got it more right than Germany, but I don't think it's helpful to be attacking anyone other than Russia right now. The eagerness with which some people are seizing upon this situation to attack Boris, Macron, the EU, Ukraine, Biden, NATO, etc. is a disturbing sign. It feels like arguing over whose deckchair is whose on the deck of a ship when we're at risk of hitting an iceberg.
Lift your eyes up, people. If you think this crisis is useful ammunition in your longstanding grudge against [whoever], you're not seeing the big picture.

Which is not to say there aren't valid criticisms to be made here, but most of the criticisms I see on here about this are low-energy partisan snipes by people who probably couldn't even point to Kyiv on a map.

Hard to disagree with this analysis.

I disagree with @Farooq 's analysis. And I can point to Kyiv on map.

What Russia is doing over Crimea, Luhansk & Donetsk is not any different to what Britain did over Antrim, Armagh, Down, Derry, Fermanagh & Tyrone.

In fact, Russia probably has a far better claim to these territories than Britain to the Six Counties.

We should sort out our own dreadful record first. Then we will have earned the right to lecture Russia.

And I love the way pb.com has recently discovered there was a famine in the Ukraine and this was genocide. (Pretty sure it was wider than the Ukraine).

I have never, ever heard anyone on pb.com refer to the Irish Genocide of 1845-1849 or the Bengal Genocide of 1943-1945.

pb.com is in the mood for a lynching.

I've seen mention of both the The Great Famine and The Bengal Famine in recent weeks. Indeed, I even referenced The Bengal Famine myself in another context. I am personally convinced Britain's guilt in these two affairs.
But as someone else has pointed out, this is pure whataboutery. So what that Britain has wronged people in the past? That does not prevent anyone talking about Russian aggression. I shouldn't have to avow my contempt for the decisions of long-dead British imperialists before speaking about Russian imperialism.

My point is this.

I am asking why is the Ukrainian Famine designated a Genocide?

But. famines caused by the British are not referred to as Genocides.

The British didn't set out to cause either the potato famine or the Bengal famine. They were caused by a parasite and a mix of wartime disruption and bad weather, respectively.* The British could - and should - have done more to mitigate them, but they did not cause them.

The Holdomar was a deliberate and systematic attempt to starve a potentially rebellious population into submission by wantonly destroying their agricultural systems. In which it was successful in the short term, at the cost of causing a burning and enduring hatred of the Moscow government that goes a long way towards explaining the current crisis.

If you can't see that that is materially different, then I am genuinely surprised.

*It is worth remembering that the famine was even more severe in Japanese occupied areas. Around a quarter of the population of Vietnam died of famine in the same period.

But ... of course it is called the Irish Genocide.

But not normally by the British ... or the Irish. It is often so-called by Irish-Americans.

The use of the word "Genocide" often betrays the fact that no sensible historical discourse can now take place.

Because the use of "Genocide" is almost always an emotional appeal to further hatred.

And that is my objection to using it in this Ukrainian context.

However, if it is going to be used, let's talk about the Irish Genocide or Bengal Genocide as well.

Let us at least be consistent in our emotional appeals to hatred ... if we cannot desist from them.

The use of the term 'genocide' in the context of the Holodomor is widespread among historians. I would instance Westwood, Macauley, McCauley, and Service without even bothering to search hard in my mind. Even Hobsbawm, an absolutely unrepentant apologist for almost all of Stalin's crimes, couldn't excuse this one and was willing to call it a genocide. The only reason Nove doesn't call it that is because he was interested in the economic not the demographic catastrophe it caused. It has also spilled over into historiography on other similar actions, e.g. in Ditoller's Mao's Great Famine. It is definitely part of 'sensible historical discourse.'

I have heard the Bengal Famine referred to as a genocide, but only by political fanatics. Not by historians.

I have never heard the Irish Potato Famine so called, although I will take your word for it you have.

The Brits don't like it?

Nor do professional historians.

It would involve suggesting the British and Japanese collaborated to cause widespread death and destruction across a large swathe of south east Asia while simultaneously fighting a war. Which seems to anyone who isn't a raging fanatic a little improbable. Such claims are for political reasons only. I would point out that not even Ho Chi Minh accused the Japanese of genocide over the Vietnamese famine that happened a year later from exactly the same causes.

One thing I do agree with @YBarddCwsc on is that using the word 'genocide' loosely, whether that's by mad xenophobes in America or Nodi's outriders in India, does cheapen it and hide the worst excesses where it is appropriate. A genocide is, as defined by the UN:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Neither the Irish or the Bengal famines fall into that category. There was no 'intent to destroy' albeit there was appalling negligence once the catastrophe began to unfold which may, in practice, have had a not dissimilar effect.

In the case of Ukraine, however, the starvation was a deliberate act of policy designed to exterminate a large number of potential opponents based on their national grouping by depriving them of food. Hard to see how that doesn't meet the definition. And anyone who thinks it doesn't clearly doesn't understand the subject and should probably keep off it.

Anyway, I have work tomorrow. Have a nice evening.

Farooq said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

TOPPING said:

@Leon complaining about people here banging on about Brexit while telling us of a vote in the European parliament that I'm pretty certain precisely zero people on this site knew or cared about is for me a highlight of the day.
.

... especially since said vote has precisely zero practical effect.

you're saying it was advisory then...

Malmesbury said:

Scott_xP said:

👀 “Whitehall officials used to be accused of “gold plating” Brussels regulations. Brexit is estimated to have required a civil service army of 50,000 new officials, more than the entire central bureaucracy of the EU in Brussels.” https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/17/brexit-life-outside-single-market-utter-disaster

I am trying to remember the name of Ghanian politician who noted that when the British ran the country they sent a bunch of white men, to ride round on horses telling people what to do.

Since independence, there are 10x as many white men, riding round in shiny 4x4s, from NGOs, still trying to tell him what to do.

HYUFD said:

Scott_xP said:

Three word slogans work, right?

American politics is deeply weird… https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1494387835180363779/photo/1

38% of Georgians are evangelical Christians and 68% classify themselves as very religious, so not very surprising that is her campaign

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/religious-tradition/by/state/

Sunil_Prasannan said:

rottenborough said:

Andy_JS said:

Plymouth is forecast to reach 91 mph winds tomorrow, the highest I've found so far.

Bracing.

Met Office reckon 66 mph in suburban Ilford tomorrow, but the Beeb website says only 52 mph. Can't both be right!

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

Scott_xP said:

Three word slogans work, right?

American politics is deeply weird… https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1494387835180363779/photo/1

38% of Georgians are evangelical Christians and 68% classify themselves as very religious, so not very surprising that is her campaign

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/religious-tradition/by/state/

Rubbish!

83.4% of Georgians are Orthodox
10.7% Muslim
2.9% Armenian Apostolic
0.5% Catholic
2.5% others

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#Religion

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just had a list of the areas and roads that will be inundated from the sea tomorrow and it is going to affect large areas around us with lots of flooding and danger

All schools and rail services closed and looks as if everyone is staying inside tomorrow

We have had many storms but I cannot recall so many specific locations under direct threat as this

storm is hitting near high tide and it's a spring tide

Cyclefree said:

Malmesbury said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Farooq, aye, it'd be much better with fewer appointees and more hereditaries.

As part of my program as unDictator of Britain, I intend to replace the Lords with the House of Bastards.

They will be selected from the 100 closest illegitimate descendants of Charles II, as determined by genetic science.

Could we not be a bit European and have descendants of bastards from there? Then I have a chance ...... 🙏

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just had a list of the areas and roads that will be inundated from the sea tomorrow and it is going to affect large areas around us with lots of flooding and danger

All schools and rail services closed and looks as if everyone is staying inside tomorrow

We have had many storms but I cannot recall so many specific locations under direct threat as this

storm is hitting near high tide and it's a spring tide

kle4 said:

Some people think Donald Trump will get convicted at some point - so far they've not even reached the point of managing to question him about in just one example of a long running case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60425457

rottenborough said:

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just had a list of the areas and roads that will be inundated from the sea tomorrow and it is going to affect large areas around us with lots of flooding and danger

All schools and rail services closed and looks as if everyone is staying inside tomorrow

We have had many storms but I cannot recall so many specific locations under direct threat as this

storm is hitting near high tide and it's a spring tide

Glad I'm not going anywhere tomorrow beyond the duvet and the sofa.

Farooq said:

kle4 said:

rottenborough said:

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just had a list of the areas and roads that will be inundated from the sea tomorrow and it is going to affect large areas around us with lots of flooding and danger

All schools and rail services closed and looks as if everyone is staying inside tomorrow

We have had many storms but I cannot recall so many specific locations under direct threat as this

storm is hitting near high tide and it's a spring tide

Glad I'm not going anywhere tomorrow beyond the duvet and the sofa.

My laptop's battery is for shit, so I'm hoping for a powercut so I can just laze about all day instead of working.

Your router would be out, so even if your laptop is on you couldn't get online.
We had power cuts in November here for several days. Even the mobile mast was out, so there was no internet possible at all.

Cyclefree said:

Malmesbury said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Farooq, aye, it'd be much better with fewer appointees and more hereditaries.

As part of my program as unDictator of Britain, I intend to replace the Lords with the House of Bastards.

They will be selected from the 100 closest illegitimate descendants of Charles II, as determined by genetic science.

Could we not be a bit European and have descendants of bastards from there? Then I have a chance ...... 🙏

El_Capitano said:

Leon said:

Gallowgate said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Thank Fuck We Are Out Of The EU, volume 296

The European Parliament is in favour of 2nd votes without enacting the 1st, just like Remoaner Trumpites

‘Moreover, a referendum to confirm the final decision can be an important democratic safeguard - crucial in case of a “no deal” withdrawal, they say.’

https://twitter.com/europarl_en/status/1493903546428887040?s=21

How can more votes be anything other than more democracy?

Absolutely, as long as Leave also gets a second vote, if we so happen to vote Remain in the first vote, on the basis that Remainers are wankers, or something

Somehow I doubt the European Parliament will be encouraging "more democracy" in THAT direction

This craic is so dreary. Christ.

Don't blame me, blame the MEPs at Strasbourg. They were the ones that had a vote today condemning Brexit and Brexit voters. They are the ones who Can't Let Go

Dude, you need a holiday.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

The Times front page has Boris in the cockpit of a typhoon

How can he fit in a typhoon cockpit

Farooq said:

Eabhal said:

Some interesting stuff on flight radar again. Drone up from Sicily and a flight from Estonia studiously avoiding Belarus.

What one from Estonia?
Just looked at this one, high altitude, also avoiding Belarus.. https://www.flightradar24.com/MFINE/2ada8d7f

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just had a list of the areas and roads that will be inundated from the sea tomorrow and it is going to affect large areas around us with lots of flooding and danger

All schools and rail services closed and looks as if everyone is staying inside tomorrow

We have had many storms but I cannot recall so many specific locations under direct threat as this

Gallowgate said:

Leon said:

El_Capitano said:

Leon said:

Gallowgate said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Thank Fuck We Are Out Of The EU, volume 296

The European Parliament is in favour of 2nd votes without enacting the 1st, just like Remoaner Trumpites

‘Moreover, a referendum to confirm the final decision can be an important democratic safeguard - crucial in case of a “no deal” withdrawal, they say.’

https://twitter.com/europarl_en/status/1493903546428887040?s=21

How can more votes be anything other than more democracy?

Absolutely, as long as Leave also gets a second vote, if we so happen to vote Remain in the first vote, on the basis that Remainers are wankers, or something

Somehow I doubt the European Parliament will be encouraging "more democracy" in THAT direction

This craic is so dreary. Christ.

Don't blame me, blame the MEPs at Strasbourg. They were the ones that had a vote today condemning Brexit and Brexit voters. They are the ones who Can't Let Go

Dude, you need a holiday.

Thanks! I was looking for an excuse as I only just got over my jet lag from Sri Lanka

Hm. Where next? I have a yearning for Turkey

Skegness. I thought you were a patriot.

Andy_JS said:

Plymouth is forecast to reach 91 mph winds tomorrow, the highest I've found so far.

BartholomewRoberts said:

MarqueeMark said:

Anyone watch the Real Hunt for Red October on SKY History? If true, the story of K-129 is the biggest single story of the twentieth century - because a rogue group of Soviets tried to engineer a nuclear war between the US and China that would have seen us entering the twenty-first century with both countries as nuked wastelands.

And Russia the remaining super power.

I doubt a nuclear holocaust would have seen the USSR remaining. The moment nukes started flying, they'd have flown at Moscow etc too.

BartholomewRoberts said:

MarqueeMark said:

Anyone watch the Real Hunt for Red October on SKY History? If true, the story of K-129 is the biggest single story of the twentieth century - because a rogue group of Soviets tried to engineer a nuclear war between the US and China that would have seen us entering the twenty-first century with both countries as nuked wastelands.

And Russia the remaining super power.

I doubt a nuclear holocaust would have seen the USSR remaining. The moment nukes started flying, they'd have flown at Moscow etc too.

Northern_Al said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just had a list of the areas and roads that will be inundated from the sea tomorrow and it is going to affect large areas around us with lots of flooding and danger

All schools and rail services closed and looks as if everyone is staying inside tomorrow

We have had many storms but I cannot recall so many specific locations under direct threat as this

I'm disappointed that you haven't managed to find a way of blaming Drakeford for this drastic lockdown.

Andy_JS said:

Swedish Wordle doesn't have an enter button. Useless fact.

https://ordlig.se

IanB2 said:

Andy_JS said:

Plymouth is forecast to reach 91 mph winds tomorrow, the highest I've found so far.

Ours aren’t far short. I have spent today taking in or tying down anything outside that might move.

For Freshwater, just along the coast, the BBC weather page has a truly remarkable (and scary) wind speed forecast of 115 mph!

TOPPING said:

Andy_JS said:

Swedish Wordle doesn't have an enter button. Useless fact.

https://ordlig.se

I tried to put in "slave" this morning and it said it wasn't a valid word. I know the NYT has taken out "offensive" words but slave??

Sunil_Prasannan said:

ydoethur said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

ydoethur said:

YBarddCwsc said:

ydoethur said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Farooq said:

YBarddCwsc said:

rcs1000 said:

Farooq said:

RochdalePioneers said:

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

MoonRabbit said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

pigeon said:

RochdalePioneers said:

CarlottaVance said:

Breaking: Ukraine, the UK and Poland announce a creation of a trilateral alliance during the UK foreign secretary @trussliz visit to Kyiv. Countries will cooperate in the areas of defense, economy, trade and countering disinformation. More information to follow soon

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1494325742582128657

We've done what? That's fucking mental.

Is it? That rather depends on what the terms of the arrangement are.

UK standing with Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic States in a way France and Germany are not

Yes you have hit the nail on the head Big G. That’s the mental bit. We need to be standing, voicing and acting in Union on these things don’t we?

Why is that mental?

Or should we just offer Putin Schleswig-Holstein, for traditions sake?

Because if his plan all along is to split - first making us gas junkies, then sabre rattling - where there is more impact us all acting as one against him, it means he’s winning. Do you see my point?

Well, unanimity in sacrificing Ukraine will only mean that Putin moves onto the Baltics. Ask @Cicero....

Unanimity is nice. But stopping people from re-drawing maps with guns is more important.

If we are going to live in a world where re-drawing the maps with guns is cool, I have a list of territorial demands of my own.

Don't worry - they are absolutely my last set of demands.

If Putin’s design is to split us - like with how much money and resources Putin pumped into cheap gas pipelines and allegedly into securing Brexit vote he wanted, and now people as moderate and sensible as Big G are posting on here delighted we are split from EU allies, Putin’s useful idiots and traitors - straight away I’m not comfortable with that. We shouldn’t be should we? If What is ranged against him is weaker going forward?

Are we not influencing France and Germany enough because we’ve brexited? Genuine question that and deserves more than insults when asked.

Putin has spent a long time and a lot of money undermining western societies. Having us all fighting with each other is precisely what his money was trying to achieve.

This is true, which is why over this I tend to think twice over dishing criticism too liberally over this issue. I think the UK has got it more right than Germany, but I don't think it's helpful to be attacking anyone other than Russia right now. The eagerness with which some people are seizing upon this situation to attack Boris, Macron, the EU, Ukraine, Biden, NATO, etc. is a disturbing sign. It feels like arguing over whose deckchair is whose on the deck of a ship when we're at risk of hitting an iceberg.
Lift your eyes up, people. If you think this crisis is useful ammunition in your longstanding grudge against [whoever], you're not seeing the big picture.

Which is not to say there aren't valid criticisms to be made here, but most of the criticisms I see on here about this are low-energy partisan snipes by people who probably couldn't even point to Kyiv on a map.

Hard to disagree with this analysis.

I disagree with @Farooq 's analysis. And I can point to Kyiv on map.

What Russia is doing over Crimea, Luhansk & Donetsk is not any different to what Britain did over Antrim, Armagh, Down, Derry, Fermanagh & Tyrone.

In fact, Russia probably has a far better claim to these territories than Britain to the Six Counties.

We should sort out our own dreadful record first. Then we will have earned the right to lecture Russia.

And I love the way pb.com has recently discovered there was a famine in the Ukraine and this was genocide. (Pretty sure it was wider than the Ukraine).

I have never, ever heard anyone on pb.com refer to the Irish Genocide of 1845-1849 or the Bengal Genocide of 1943-1945.

pb.com is in the mood for a lynching.

I've seen mention of both the The Great Famine and The Bengal Famine in recent weeks. Indeed, I even referenced The Bengal Famine myself in another context. I am personally convinced Britain's guilt in these two affairs.
But as someone else has pointed out, this is pure whataboutery. So what that Britain has wronged people in the past? That does not prevent anyone talking about Russian aggression. I shouldn't have to avow my contempt for the decisions of long-dead British imperialists before speaking about Russian imperialism.

My point is this.

I am asking why is the Ukrainian Famine designated a Genocide?

But. famines caused by the British are not referred to as Genocides.

The British didn't set out to cause either the potato famine or the Bengal famine. They were caused by a parasite and a mix of wartime disruption and bad weather, respectively.* The British could - and should - have done more to mitigate them, but they did not cause them.

The Holdomar was a deliberate and systematic attempt to starve a potentially rebellious population into submission by wantonly destroying their agricultural systems. In which it was successful in the short term, at the cost of causing a burning and enduring hatred of the Moscow government that goes a long way towards explaining the current crisis.

If you can't see that that is materially different, then I am genuinely surprised.

*It is worth remembering that the famine was even more severe in Japanese occupied areas. Around a quarter of the population of Vietnam died of famine in the same period.

But ... of course it is called the Irish Genocide.

But not normally by the British ... or the Irish. It is often so-called by Irish-Americans.

The use of the word "Genocide" often betrays the fact that no sensible historical discourse can now take place.

Because the use of "Genocide" is almost always an emotional appeal to further hatred.

And that is my objection to using it in this Ukrainian context.

However, if it is going to be used, let's talk about the Irish Genocide or Bengal Genocide as well.

Let us at least be consistent in our emotional appeals to hatred ... if we cannot desist from them.

The use of the term 'genocide' in the context of the Holodomor is widespread among historians. I would instance Westwood, Macauley, McCauley, and Service without even bothering to search hard in my mind. Even Hobsbawm, an absolutely unrepentant apologist for almost all of Stalin's crimes, couldn't excuse this one and was willing to call it a genocide. The only reason Nove doesn't call it that is because he was interested in the economic not the demographic catastrophe it caused. It has also spilled over into historiography on other similar actions, e.g. in Ditoller's Mao's Great Famine. It is definitely part of 'sensible historical discourse.'

I have heard the Bengal Famine referred to as a genocide, but only by political fanatics. Not by historians.

I have never heard the Irish Potato Famine so called, although I will take your word for it you have.

The Brits don't like it?

Nor do professional historians.

It would involve suggesting the British and Japanese collaborated to cause widespread death and destruction across a large swathe of south east Asia while simultaneously fighting a war. Which seems to anyone who isn't a raging fanatic a little improbable. Such claims are for political reasons only. I would point out that not even Ho Chi Minh accused the Japanese of genocide over the Vietnamese famine that happened a year later from exactly the same causes.

One thing I do agree with @YBarddCwsc on is that using the word 'genocide' loosely, whether that's by mad xenophobes in America or Nodi's outriders in India, does cheapen it and hide the worst excesses where it is appropriate. A genocide is, as defined by the UN:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Neither the Irish or the Bengal famines fall into that category. There was no 'intent to destroy' albeit there was appalling negligence once the catastrophe began to unfold which may, in practice, have had a not dissimilar effect.

In the case of Ukraine, however, the starvation was a deliberate act of policy designed to exterminate a large number of potential opponents based on their national grouping by depriving them of food. Hard to see how that doesn't meet the definition. And anyone who thinks it doesn't clearly doesn't understand the subject and should probably keep off it.

Anyway, I have work tomorrow. Have a nice evening.

So we can safely conclude YOU don't like it.