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The polling evidence against Johnson mounts – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,331
    Big admiration for Sadiq Khan:

    “Last week. I made clear to the
    Metropolitan Police Commissioner
    the scale of the change I believe is
    urgently required to rebuild the
    trust and confidence of Londoners
    in the Met and to root out the
    racism, sexism, homophobia,
    bullying, discrimination and
    misogyny that still exists.
    “I am not satisfied with the
    Commissioner’s response.
    “On being informed of this, Dame
    Cressida Dick has said she will be
    standing aside. It’s clear that the
    only way to start to deliver the
    scale of the change required is to
    have new leadership right at the
    top of the Metropolitan Police."
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    So as far as you're concerned Russia can invade Lithuania and Poland as well as Ukraine? Do you not think they will defend themselves?
    We need to find diplomatic solutions. Hence talking about heavy sanctions and going after Russian money in the west. That can work - a lot of oligarchs that have influence.

    But war? Lets assume that Russia takes Kiev. Are we going to war with Russia knowing at best that we get sucked into a mess and at worse we all get nuked? So very few of the conventional WWIII scenarios find a resolution without nukes being fired.

    Dunno about you but I'd prefer not to get nuked. So lets go after Russian money as we are threatening. Problem is that we can't just make vague threats as the idiot Truss did - we need to actually propose international sanctions.
    The sanctions are rolling into law as we type.

    What happens when Russia takes half Ukraine, though?

    What are you going to do when the remaining Western half of Ukraine opens the cooling ponds at the reactors? Say "no, that would be rude"?
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
  • Options
    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    "Khan Fires Dick" not quite up to "Truman Fires MacArthur" as a headline. Still good enough for govt work.

    "Dick goes limp after being rubbed up by Khan"?
    The Mayor does seem to have had no idea of what was going on until very recently.

    Khan nil knowledge of Dick?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927

    Pulpstar said:

    Anything about knife crime in the resignation statement ?

    Yes, she claims to have made big progress on it:

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1491852177043861507
    That part is worded very strangely. "We are acheiving remarkable results in key areas of violence, with thousands of fewer victims of knife crime..."
    Yes, it doesn't actually say fewer kids are being killed, which you might have thought would be the measure.
    Is that because more kids are being killed? It’s a bit difficult to cover up stats for murders.
  • Options
    The collapsed Kids Company charity was mismanaged, a watchdog has concluded.

    The charity, set up by Camila Batmanghelidjh, folded in 2015 amid financial problems. A police investigation found no evidence of criminality or safeguarding failures.

    A new report by the Charity Commission found Kids Company had repeatedly failed to pay tax and its workers.

    Ex-trustees said they were pleased it found no basis for action to be taken but rejected the mismanagement finding.
  • Options
    Two months, four days since the last Tory poll lead*.

    (* Redfield & Wilton, 6th December)
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,756

    Sandpit said:

    Time to disband the Met, as they disbanded the RUC after the Troubles?

    That was the plan I had for a thread the week after next.

    Get Chris Patten to chair the review.
    I have a nice range of chocolate teapots in mind to replace the Met.

    No, think of the advantages

    A chocolate teapot won't accidentally shoot Brazilian sparkies on the tube
    A chocolate teapot won't try and frame Cabinet Ministers
    A chocolate teapot won't be corrupt and stupid
    etc etc

    And you'd also have chocolate.

    What's not to like?
    I bought a chocolate teapot for my brother one Christmas:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-29126161
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    edited February 2022

    And another headline just to annoy the anti-woke brigade...

    "Met transitioning after Dick is removed"

    :tongue:

    It was key to Khan's a gender.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927
    edited February 2022
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Time to disband the Met, as they disbanded the RUC after the Troubles?

    Defund the Police...🤔

    Where have we heard that before?
    Not defund the police, but replace the idiots in the top management roles at the force.

    As many American cities are discovering, defunding the police leads to a massive rise in crime.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anything about knife crime in the resignation statement ?

    Yes, she claims to have made big progress on it:

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1491852177043861507
    That part is worded very strangely. "We are acheiving remarkable results in key areas of violence, with thousands of fewer victims of knife crime..."
    Yes, it doesn't actually say fewer kids are being killed, which you might have thought would be the measure.
    Is that because more kids are being killed? It’s a bit difficult to cover up stats for murders.
    I understand that fewer are dying - in large part due to improved experience and medical protocols for first responders.

    Essentially - the paramedics are getting better at stopping the stabbed kids dying before they get to hospital.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    So as far as you're concerned Russia can invade Lithuania and Poland as well as Ukraine? Do you not think they will defend themselves?
    We need to find diplomatic solutions. Hence talking about heavy sanctions and going after Russian money in the west. That can work - a lot of oligarchs that have influence.

    But war? Lets assume that Russia takes Kiev. Are we going to war with Russia knowing at best that we get sucked into a mess and at worse we all get nuked? So very few of the conventional WWIII scenarios find a resolution without nukes being fired.

    Dunno about you but I'd prefer not to get nuked. So lets go after Russian money as we are threatening. Problem is that we can't just make vague threats as the idiot Truss did - we need to actually propose international sanctions.
    They have. SWIFT access terminated and Nordstream 2 cancelled
  • Options
    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,593
    Roger said:

    David Lammy is a little bit good on Ch4 News.

    The Tories have two problems, and it is interesting to think about which is trickier. The obvious problem is that a Trumpian Tory party (as distinct from a popular or populist one) is unelectable; the other problem is that Labour is aiming directly at the traditional centre right voter - I am one - for whom a competent centrist Labour party (in coalition if necessary) is the only possible alternative to a Trumpist Tory.

    That option is currently on the table. Lammy's ringing defence of NATO on C4 this evening is just one example.

    A further Tory problem, if Labour can keep the loony fringe in its box, is that ATM the Tories are more divided and indecisive than Labour.

    Of course if the left starts mouthing off again all bets are off.

  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anything about knife crime in the resignation statement ?

    Yes, she claims to have made big progress on it:

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1491852177043861507
    That part is worded very strangely. "We are acheiving remarkable results in key areas of violence, with thousands of fewer victims of knife crime..."
    Yes, it doesn't actually say fewer kids are being killed, which you might have thought would be the measure.
    Is that because more kids are being killed? It’s a bit difficult to cover up stats for murders.
    Yes, last year was the worst ever. But the Cressida Dick seems to think that she did well on that.

    Mind you, mere murders don't seem to have been the trigger for her defenestration.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,273

    The collapsed Kids Company charity was mismanaged, a watchdog has concluded.

    The charity, set up by Camila Batmanghelidjh, folded in 2015 amid financial problems. A police investigation found no evidence of criminality or safeguarding failures.

    A new report by the Charity Commission found Kids Company had repeatedly failed to pay tax and its workers.

    Ex-trustees said they were pleased it found no basis for action to be taken but rejected the mismanagement finding.

    Interesting response.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    edited February 2022

    The collapsed Kids Company charity was mismanaged, a watchdog has concluded.

    Collapsed charity that ran out of money despite huge injection of state funds was mismanaged?

    No. Shit. Sherlock.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    The danger is that you are assuming top-of-the-mountian-lofty-rationality in an opponent.

    Read some Herman Kahn. A huge historical mistake is to assume that dictatorial opponents are individual actors, without enormous pressures from their barons.

    Putin isn't sitting in a vast, marble lined room, by a huge fire. With a globe of the world, and a fine brandy.. he is not deciding the fate of the world like a personal chess game.

    He is the pinnacle of a pyramid of ruthless and powerful men. Each of them (and Putin himself) have ideologies they cleave to. Alliance, requirements, hatreds. They have things they believe in, more than just money and power. Though those are very important.

    Think of a medieval court.....

    From Putin's point of view, it may be that a giant tank battle with NATO forces is the safe option for him personally. Another Great Patriotic War to rally the dying embers of his regime.

    We may hope not. But it might be.

    What is rational to us, may not even be the 13th best choice to him.
    This is true, however, nothing he has done so far seems to be beyond the established modus operandi of post Soviet (which has mainly been Putin) Russian foreign policy. Which is to dominate near neighbours and try to prevent any of the Soviet successor states joining NATO.
    Which is what has been said many times before - "This guy plays by *these* rules"

    What if something has changed?
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,331
    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,509

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    It has nothing to do with it being OK. What China is doing in Hong Kong isn't OK. What Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen isn't OK. What Mugabe has done in Zimbabwe isn't OK. There's a big difference between it being OK and it being sensible or warranted for the UK to seek to intervene militarily to stop it happening.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    Heathener said:

    Big admiration for Sadiq Khan:

    “Last week. I made clear to the
    Metropolitan Police Commissioner
    the scale of the change I believe is
    urgently required to rebuild the
    trust and confidence of Londoners
    in the Met and to root out the
    racism, sexism, homophobia,
    bullying, discrimination and
    misogyny that still exists.
    “I am not satisfied with the
    Commissioner’s response.
    “On being informed of this, Dame
    Cressida Dick has said she will be
    standing aside. It’s clear that the
    only way to start to deliver the
    scale of the change required is to
    have new leadership right at the
    top of the Metropolitan Police."

    He was pretty good on this. Very clear, very careful (as you've illustrated). It really was something that could have blown up in his face.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    That's an image I could have done without.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2022

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    The danger is that you are assuming top-of-the-mountian-lofty-rationality in an opponent.

    Read some Herman Kahn. A huge historical mistake is to assume that dictatorial opponents are individual actors, without enormous pressures from their barons.

    Putin isn't sitting in a vast, marble lined room, by a huge fire. With a globe of the world, and a fine brandy.. he is not deciding the fate of the world like a personal chess game.

    He is the pinnacle of a pyramid of ruthless and powerful men. Each of them (and Putin himself) have ideologies they cleave to. Alliance, requirements, hatreds. They have things they believe in, more than just money and power. Though those are very important.

    Think of a medieval court.....

    From Putin's point of view, it may be that a giant tank battle with NATO forces is the safe option for him personally. Another Great Patriotic War to rally the dying embers of his regime.

    We may hope not. But it might be.

    What is rational to us, may not even be the 13th best choice to him.
    I don't think modern Russia is as coherent as this, personally. The Siloviiki, from various accounts, are as much concerned with personal enrichment and short-term pragmatism, as they are with any long-term domestic, or global goals at all.

    It seems to be an ad-hoc kleptocracy with a nationalist veneer. The cultural forces of conviction seem much weaker than in Erdogan's Turkey or Modi's India, for instance.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    That's an image I could have done without.
    There's a lot to snack on with the Boris corpse.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,509

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    The danger is that you are assuming top-of-the-mountian-lofty-rationality in an opponent.

    Read some Herman Kahn. A huge historical mistake is to assume that dictatorial opponents are individual actors, without enormous pressures from their barons.

    Putin isn't sitting in a vast, marble lined room, by a huge fire. With a globe of the world, and a fine brandy.. he is not deciding the fate of the world like a personal chess game.

    He is the pinnacle of a pyramid of ruthless and powerful men. Each of them (and Putin himself) have ideologies they cleave to. Alliance, requirements, hatreds. They have things they believe in, more than just money and power. Though those are very important.

    Think of a medieval court.....

    From Putin's point of view, it may be that a giant tank battle with NATO forces is the safe option for him personally. Another Great Patriotic War to rally the dying embers of his regime.

    We may hope not. But it might be.

    What is rational to us, may not even be the 13th best choice to him.
    This is true, however, nothing he has done so far seems to be beyond the established modus operandi of post Soviet (which has mainly been Putin) Russian foreign policy. Which is to dominate near neighbours and try to prevent any of the Soviet successor states joining NATO.
    Which is what has been said many times before - "This guy plays by *these* rules"

    What if something has changed?
    Speak softly and carry a big stick seems an applicable doctrine. Sadly successive leaders of the UK have chosen to speak loudly and carry a pencil.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,273
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    That's an image I could have done without.
    Perhaps they meant ‘spooning’ ?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    The danger is that you are assuming top-of-the-mountian-lofty-rationality in an opponent.

    Read some Herman Kahn. A huge historical mistake is to assume that dictatorial opponents are individual actors, without enormous pressures from their barons.

    Putin isn't sitting in a vast, marble lined room, by a huge fire. With a globe of the world, and a fine brandy.. he is not deciding the fate of the world like a personal chess game.

    He is the pinnacle of a pyramid of ruthless and powerful men. Each of them (and Putin himself) have ideologies they cleave to. Alliance, requirements, hatreds. They have things they believe in, more than just money and power. Though those are very important.

    Think of a medieval court.....

    From Putin's point of view, it may be that a giant tank battle with NATO forces is the safe option for him personally. Another Great Patriotic War to rally the dying embers of his regime.

    We may hope not. But it might be.

    What is rational to us, may not even be the 13th best choice to him.
    I don't think modern Russia is as coherent as this, personally. The Siloviiki, from various accounts, are as much concerned with personal enrichment and short-term pragmatism, as they are with any long-term domestic or global goals at all.

    It seems to be an ad-hoc kleptocracy with a nationalist veneer. The cultural forces of conviction seem much weaker than in Erdogan's Turkey or Modi's India, for instance.
    They are united by being Greater Russian Nationalists, though. They genuinely seem to believe that they are the Strong Men required to lead the Russian people.

    Stalin was a career bandit.....
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    It has nothing to do with it being OK. What China is doing in Hong Kong isn't OK. What Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen isn't OK. What Mugabe has done in Zimbabwe isn't OK. There's a big difference between it being OK and it being sensible or warranted for the UK to seek to intervene militarily to stop it happening.
    If we don’t respond to an invasion of a NATO member the west is done
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116

    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.

    You're talking about "the Europeans" in a way that excludes part of the EU.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Excellent news that Dick's out.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    Taz said:

    The collapsed Kids Company charity was mismanaged, a watchdog has concluded.

    The charity, set up by Camila Batmanghelidjh, folded in 2015 amid financial problems. A police investigation found no evidence of criminality or safeguarding failures.

    A new report by the Charity Commission found Kids Company had repeatedly failed to pay tax and its workers.

    Ex-trustees said they were pleased it found no basis for action to be taken but rejected the mismanagement finding.

    Interesting response.
    Several of them have fond it hard to get 1-day-a-year trustee gigs with the mismanagement thing hanging over them.

    Apparently ,some stupid people think they are legally responsible for something they are legally responsible for....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
    Wasn’t he suggested last time there was a vacancy, but too many people said it would be the wrong approach? Those people, being those who benefit massively from not bringing in outsiders.
  • Options

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    Sandpit said:

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
    Wasn’t he suggested last time there was a vacancy, but too many people said it would be the wrong approach? Those people, being those who benefit massively from not bringing in outsiders.
    It's not serious - he is probably not interested these days.

    Yes - even the suggestion was considered a bit of a declaration of war by the Met.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2022

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    The danger is that you are assuming top-of-the-mountian-lofty-rationality in an opponent.

    Read some Herman Kahn. A huge historical mistake is to assume that dictatorial opponents are individual actors, without enormous pressures from their barons.

    Putin isn't sitting in a vast, marble lined room, by a huge fire. With a globe of the world, and a fine brandy.. he is not deciding the fate of the world like a personal chess game.

    He is the pinnacle of a pyramid of ruthless and powerful men. Each of them (and Putin himself) have ideologies they cleave to. Alliance, requirements, hatreds. They have things they believe in, more than just money and power. Though those are very important.

    Think of a medieval court.....

    From Putin's point of view, it may be that a giant tank battle with NATO forces is the safe option for him personally. Another Great Patriotic War to rally the dying embers of his regime.

    We may hope not. But it might be.

    What is rational to us, may not even be the 13th best choice to him.
    I don't think modern Russia is as coherent as this, personally. The Siloviiki, from various accounts, are as much concerned with personal enrichment and short-term pragmatism, as they are with any long-term domestic or global goals at all.

    It seems to be an ad-hoc kleptocracy with a nationalist veneer. The cultural forces of conviction seem much weaker than in Erdogan's Turkey or Modi's India, for instance.
    They are united by being Greater Russian Nationalists, though. They genuinely seem to believe that they are the Strong Men required to lead the Russian people.

    Stalin was a career bandit.....
    He was, but don't forget there were many layers of real communist conviction and systems backing him up, too.

    The Russian populace at large, and also higher echelons, are nothing like as convinced of Russia's destiny now as the nomenclatura were then so convinced of that convenient stew of national-communist destiny.
  • Options

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
    After yesterday's wordle fiasco, hell no to any Americans coming over here and violating our language.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100
    Age divides in the new British politics

    18-24s Lab 47% Con 20%
    25-34s Lab 62% Con 17%
    35-44s Lab 48% Con 25%
    45-54s Lab 46% Con 29%
    55-64s Lab 33% Con 35%
    65s &+ Lab 28% Con 49%
    Source: Redfield & Wilton Feb 7
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1491854196152360966?s=20&t=4KxVjrIqgqbK2JZmJSwiiw
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883

    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.

    Unfortunately, the discussion has become so polarised you either have to risk WW3 or be accused of "appeasing" Putin. A lot of that is hopefully for domestic audiences and the serious diplomats are doing their job in figuring out how to de-escalate this situation.

    Liz Truss strutting around doing her best Margaret Thatcher may impress some but for serious people it's just embarrassing. I imagine Lavrov could barely stop himself laughing.

    Instead of bluster and bravado, we should be establishing what it is Putin actually wants - I'm sure he doesn't want to invade Ukraine (which is a lot of risk for very little reward). There may be a deal to be done including some political recognition for Russian interests east of the Dniepr and a commitment Ukraine will never join NATO (Moldova is in a similar position).
  • Options

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    It has nothing to do with it being OK. What China is doing in Hong Kong isn't OK. What Saudi Arabia is doing in Yemen isn't OK. What Mugabe has done in Zimbabwe isn't OK. There's a big difference between it being OK and it being sensible or warranted for the UK to seek to intervene militarily to stop it happening.
    This. Even if we wanted to be the Big Bad and stand up to Russia, with what are we doing it? This isn't the cold war any more. We don't pose any kind of threat to Russia, they still pose a massive threat to us. By ourselves all we can really threaten him with is a strategic platform which would bring absolute destruction on ourselves.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    edited February 2022

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
    To be serious, one thing that the new candidate has to be is appointed form totally outside the Met. Never even served in it. So they can do a complete reset of a force that's clearly become insular, complacent and absolutely corrupt from top to bottom.

    If that means appointing from outside the UK that's fine.

    Although I wonder if Drew Harris might be persuaded to cross the Irish Sea. He's British, after all, and has been making the right noises in a very similar situation at the Garda:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/is-drew-harris-making-necessary-change-or-making-gardaí-paranoid-and-confused-1.4010284
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,331
    edited February 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Age divides in the new British politics


    Source: Redfield & Wilton Feb 7

    Hey but they aren't one of your two acceptable pollsters, remember?

    For anyone who missed it, HYUFD only accepts two pollsters who were closest last time (IPSOS-Mori and Opinium). All the rest are now disregarded.

    Except when it suits him, obvs.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,273

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
    After yesterday's wordle fiasco, hell no to any Americans coming over here and violating our language.
    Got it second go today. Yesterday was a joke. Not funny.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,082
    stodge said:

    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.

    Unfortunately, the discussion has become so polarised you either have to risk WW3 or be accused of "appeasing" Putin. A lot of that is hopefully for domestic audiences and the serious diplomats are doing their job in figuring out how to de-escalate this situation.

    Liz Truss strutting around doing her best Margaret Thatcher may impress some but for serious people it's just embarrassing. I imagine Lavrov could barely stop himself laughing.

    Instead of bluster and bravado, we should be establishing what it is Putin actually wants - I'm sure he doesn't want to invade Ukraine (which is a lot of risk for very little reward). There may be a deal to be done including some political recognition for Russian interests east of the Dniepr and a commitment Ukraine will never join NATO (Moldova is in a similar position).
    He wants the Minsk accords implemented. Which f*cks Ukraine and scares anyone else near Russia
  • Options

    Roger said:

    After Truss's humiliation today even the very stupidest Tory MPs must see that not only is Johnson a laughing stock but it's spread to the whole party. Lavrov was grinning from ear to ear. He thinks he's dealing with Dell Boy and Rodney and who can blame him.

    Humiliation? But I read on here that to point to her laughably bad performance and the disastrous impact it may have on UK-Russian relations at this critical juncture is unpatriotic. That we should be cheering on her crapfest like she is any good.
    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1491850372016746504

    @MacaesBruno
    Bizarre to see prominent Brits praise Lavrov - the ultimate bore - just because they hate Brexit
    We're not praising Lavrov. We're condemning Truss. They are *both* shit. Its not either / or.
    You are either with Truss or against Truss.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
    NATO includes those American chaps. And they are massively in place in Baltics at the moment, with more arriving.

    NATO, together, can assemble enough conventional military power to repel an attack on the Baltic Republics.

    The reason for the B-52s is probably to drop standoff containers carrying SUU-66/B - you can read up on what they did to an Iraqi division in 2003.
  • Options

    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.

    You're talking about "the Europeans" in a way that excludes part of the EU.
    Remember that I have stepped back from the table as a player and taken a top down view. To Russia that is exactly how they see it. You have to understand the position and perspective of the other side to do any kind of negotiation.

    We see new NATO states as European. Russia sees them as Russian and wants to stop others joining NATO. Whats more he has spent 20 years undermining NATO countries politically so that the population is ill-informed, cynical and apathetic.

    So again, are people here in Britain in 2022 prepared to fight a general war against Russia because he threatens Lithuania? We all know the answer is no. So why pretend otherwise?
  • Options

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
    NATO includes those American chaps. And they are massively in place in Baltics at the moment, with more arriving.

    NATO, together, can assemble enough conventional military power to repel an attack on the Baltic Republics.

    The reason for the B-52s is probably to drop standoff containers carrying SUU-66/B - you can read up on what they did to an Iraqi division in 2003.
    I want MOABs dropped soon.

    Can the B-52s deliver the Mother Of All Bombs?
  • Options
    Taz said:

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
    After yesterday's wordle fiasco, hell no to any Americans coming over here and violating our language.
    Got it second go today. Yesterday was a joke. Not funny.
    This is my view about wordle but once I heard about yesterday's fiasco I got all angry, nobody does that to the English language.


  • Options

    Roger said:

    After Truss's humiliation today even the very stupidest Tory MPs must see that not only is Johnson a laughing stock but it's spread to the whole party. Lavrov was grinning from ear to ear. He thinks he's dealing with Dell Boy and Rodney and who can blame him.

    Humiliation? But I read on here that to point to her laughably bad performance and the disastrous impact it may have on UK-Russian relations at this critical juncture is unpatriotic. That we should be cheering on her crapfest like she is any good.
    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1491850372016746504

    @MacaesBruno
    Bizarre to see prominent Brits praise Lavrov - the ultimate bore - just because they hate Brexit
    We're not praising Lavrov. We're condemning Truss. They are *both* shit. Its not either / or.
    You are either with Truss or against Truss.
    In God we Truss!
  • Options
    "Johnson: Dame Cressida 'served her country with great dedication' "

    Guardian blog.


    Genuine LOL.




  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
    NATO includes those American chaps. And they are massively in place in Baltics at the moment, with more arriving.

    NATO, together, can assemble enough conventional military power to repel an attack on the Baltic Republics.

    The reason for the B-52s is probably to drop standoff containers carrying SUU-66/B - you can read up on what they did to an Iraqi division in 2003.
    I want MOABs dropped soon.

    Can the B-52s deliver the Mother Of All Bombs?
    Probably - though that would require an overflight of the target. So probably would be done by a B-2.

    The Skeets are scarier, in many ways.
  • Options
    James Oh Brien
    @mrjamesob
    ·
    39m
    Cressida Dick never broke the law. Boris Johnson did. Guess which one just resigned.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Age divides in the new British politics

    18-24s Lab 47% Con 20%
    25-34s Lab 62% Con 17%
    35-44s Lab 48% Con 25%
    45-54s Lab 46% Con 29%
    55-64s Lab 33% Con 35%
    65s &+ Lab 28% Con 49%
    Source: Redfield & Wilton Feb 7
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1491854196152360966?s=20&t=4KxVjrIqgqbK2JZmJSwiiw

    Indeed. I saw a presentation about the effects of Brexit and they discussed the widening gap between "Brexit is going well" and "Brexit is going badly". They put it down to the fact that the "Brexit doing well" group is older and are dying and the "Brexit is bad" group are younger people coming of age at 18. No one is actually changing their minds....
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334

    James Oh Brien
    @mrjamesob
    ·
    39m
    Cressida Dick never broke the law. Boris Johnson did. Guess which one just resigned.

    I think that is a very bold claim indeed to make about Cressida Dick.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,756

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    The danger is that you are assuming top-of-the-mountian-lofty-rationality in an opponent.

    Read some Herman Kahn. A huge historical mistake is to assume that dictatorial opponents are individual actors, without enormous pressures from their barons.

    Putin isn't sitting in a vast, marble lined room, by a huge fire. With a globe of the world, and a fine brandy.. he is not deciding the fate of the world like a personal chess game.

    He is the pinnacle of a pyramid of ruthless and powerful men. Each of them (and Putin himself) have ideologies they cleave to. Alliance, requirements, hatreds. They have things they believe in, more than just money and power. Though those are very important.

    Think of a medieval court.....

    From Putin's point of view, it may be that a giant tank battle with NATO forces is the safe option for him personally. Another Great Patriotic War to rally the dying embers of his regime.

    We may hope not. But it might be.

    What is rational to us, may not even be the 13th best choice to him.
    I don't think modern Russia is as coherent as this, personally. The Siloviiki, from various accounts, are as much concerned with personal enrichment and short-term pragmatism, as they are with any long-term domestic, or global goals at all.

    It seems to be an ad-hoc kleptocracy with a nationalist veneer. The cultural forces of conviction seem much weaker than in Erdogan's Turkey or Modi's India, for instance.
    I think that you cannot ignore the Rusian military-industrial complex. They have had a lot of investment and new toys over the last decade or so. They have a strong desire to test them out.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    That's an image I could have done without.
    Spooning?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    stodge said:

    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.

    Unfortunately, the discussion has become so polarised you either have to risk WW3 or be accused of "appeasing" Putin. A lot of that is hopefully for domestic audiences and the serious diplomats are doing their job in figuring out how to de-escalate this situation.

    Liz Truss strutting around doing her best Margaret Thatcher may impress some but for serious people it's just embarrassing. I imagine Lavrov could barely stop himself laughing.

    Instead of bluster and bravado, we should be establishing what it is Putin actually wants - I'm sure he doesn't want to invade Ukraine (which is a lot of risk for very little reward). There may be a deal to be done including some political recognition for Russian interests east of the Dniepr and a commitment Ukraine will never join NATO (Moldova is in a similar position).
    The problem is that various diplomatic attempts have been made and Putin is holding to the list of demands he made at the start. Which are simply "give me everything I want".
  • Options
    "Cressida Dick" sounds too much like a venereal disease?
  • Options

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
    NATO includes those American chaps. And they are massively in place in Baltics at the moment, with more arriving.

    NATO, together, can assemble enough conventional military power to repel an attack on the Baltic Republics.

    The reason for the B-52s is probably to drop standoff containers carrying SUU-66/B - you can read up on what they did to an Iraqi division in 2003.
    OK. So President Biden decides he is going to war with Russia. In ordinary times you would expect Americans to be all flag and country. But now? Are the people who think Biden stole the election and is the singular threat to their way of life going to back him getting tangled into a shooting war with Russia which could literally destroy their way of life? Over Litvokranya?

    Putin has undermined the American psyche so badly with Trump that I'd question if Biden could carry public support for using said BUFFs against Russian forces.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,509

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
    NATO includes those American chaps. And they are massively in place in Baltics at the moment, with more arriving.

    NATO, together, can assemble enough conventional military power to repel an attack on the Baltic Republics.

    The reason for the B-52s is probably to drop standoff containers carrying SUU-66/B - you can read up on what they did to an Iraqi division in 2003.
    Then let the Americans do it. Perhaps we can join after a couple of years when a Russian ally launches a preemptive attack on our fleet.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    That's an image I could have done without.
    Spooning?
    Spooning leads to forking.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,676
    I seem to have inadvertently tuned in to the local London news this evening.

    Despite what the news channels may think, this story is irrelevant to the rest of the country.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,756

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
    NATO includes those American chaps. And they are massively in place in Baltics at the moment, with more arriving.

    NATO, together, can assemble enough conventional military power to repel an attack on the Baltic Republics.

    The reason for the B-52s is probably to drop standoff containers carrying SUU-66/B - you can read up on what they did to an Iraqi division in 2003.
    I want MOABs dropped soon.

    Can the B-52s deliver the Mother Of All Bombs?
    Probably - though that would require an overflight of the target. So probably would be done by a B-2.

    The Skeets are scarier, in many ways.
    Its a big difference fighting a war with uncontested air superiority, as per Iraq, and one where at the very least it is contested.

    I expect it to be a cyberwar, at least initially.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,273

    Taz said:

    Runners and riders for new Met Chief?

    They will have to satisfy Patel, Johnson and Khan.

    Crikey!!! That's a tall call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bratton
    After yesterday's wordle fiasco, hell no to any Americans coming over here and violating our language.
    Got it second go today. Yesterday was a joke. Not funny.
    This is my view about wordle but once I heard about yesterday's fiasco I got all angry, nobody does that to the English language.


    Ooh, I’m pinching that pic !
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,948
    ydoethur said:

    James Oh Brien
    @mrjamesob
    ·
    39m
    Cressida Dick never broke the law. Boris Johnson did. Guess which one just resigned.

    I think that is a very bold claim indeed to make about Cressida Dick.
    Indeed. And she's resigning because she has been forced to, it isn't some noble act. One may well be worse than the other, but it's possible to consider neither Dick nor Boris deserve to keep their positions.
  • Options

    I seem to have inadvertently tuned in to the local London news this evening.

    Despite what the news channels may think, this story is irrelevant to the rest of the country.

    Nah, the Met Commish could bring down the Prime Minister.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,250

    I seem to have inadvertently tuned in to the local London news this evening.

    Despite what the news channels may think, this story is irrelevant to the rest of the country.

    Not completely. Head of the met is also responsible for counterterrorism, and sadly the terrorists think the whole U.K. is fair game. Plus there is a sense that while not in reality the case, the head of the met, is the highest police officer nationally.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334

    I seem to have inadvertently tuned in to the local London news this evening.

    Despite what the news channels may think, this story is irrelevant to the rest of the country.

    Not true, actually. The Met has significant nationwide powers, including counterterrorism and protecting national consulates and missions. They also still provide much specialist support to smaller police forces.

    We may wish it didn't affect us, but that's a different problem.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,676
    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    Whereas Bozo is circling the plug hole.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    That's an image I could have done without.
    Spooning?
    Spooning leads to forking.
    BJ just goes straight to the sporking.
  • Options
    Made the absolute rookie error of searching on Twitter for 'Dick'.

    I should burn this laptop right?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,250

    Made the absolute rookie error of searching on Twitter for 'Dick'.

    I should burn this laptop right?

    And emigrate. Tonight.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334

    Made the absolute rookie error of searching on Twitter for 'Dick'.

    I should burn this laptop right?

    Picture of Ed Balls, is it?
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,555

    Made the absolute rookie error of searching on Twitter for 'Dick'.

    I should burn this laptop right?

    Not unless you typed lady cop beside it.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    Cicero said:

    The blockade of Ukraine by the Russian naval forces seems to have begun. Despite promises to Macron and indeed to Truss, there seems to be no stopping the Russian determination to launch a war in Ukraine. Here in Tallinn, things are quiet, but there is a general sense that the crisis is not going away and that the next three months will be a rough ride across Europe. There is real concern that the Belarusian exercises are cover to put pressure on the so called "Suwalki gap", the border between Poland and Lithuania that lies between the large Russian garrison in the Kaliningradskay oblast and the new Russian forces now in Hrodna, which is only 10km from the border.

    Russia is not seeking any exit and the only time they even hesitate is when credible deterrence is offered by NATO. So those who posted this morning that things were winding down seem to be rather mistaken. The regime in Moscow believes in the use of force as a legitimate act of state policy. The last time that was tried it ended very badly indeed. However the only way to stop this blackmail is to make sure that if Russia launches an attack on its neighbour then the cost is so severe that even Putin should fear the consequences.

    We're not going to threaten war over Ukraine. Putin knows this. The idea of the long-threatened "lets kill everyone" war breaking out over what until recently was an internal Soviet issue is beyond comprehension.

    If he was about to surge armies through the Fulda gap then OK its war. But through the Suwalki gap? No.
    Are you really saying it’s ok for Russia to invade Poland and/or Lithuania and we will ignore an Article 5 invocation?
    I'm saying its not OK for Russia to invade anyone. I am not advocating a pro-Russian position or pro-Putin and I agree with Starmer's attack on the Stop The War wazzocks.

    But - realpolitik. During the actual cold war there was a very real chance that NATO would collapse at the moment of biggest pressure. The KGB knew this hence so much effort put into undermining various states by fostering links to the same Stop The War type wazzocks and Red Army Faction terrorism.

    So if we got to Lithuania invoking Article 5 I do have to ask how NATO would react after a prolonged period of Russian interference in our societies. Are people here going to support a general war against Russia because Putin invaded Lithuania? To stand resolutely against the oppressor in a place they can't even spell as Russia start bombing Birmingham? Really?

    What makes our position even weaker is that we don't even have the weaponry to repel them. Decades of defence cuts have gutted the British military. And once you wipe out the bits we have left, all that remains are strategic weapons. So very quickly your Article 5 war sees HM armed forces squished and only Trident left. Strategic weapons. Which if you use them means getting turned to large sheets of molten glass.

    Sorry to put such a pessimistic / realpoltik perspective on this, but our militaristic threats are ridiculous and Putin knows it. If we had a scaled up military with actual offensive capabilities then maybe our posture looks different. But we have half an army, bits of an airforce, a Navy carriers without escorts or planes. And Trident.
    NATO includes those American chaps. And they are massively in place in Baltics at the moment, with more arriving.

    NATO, together, can assemble enough conventional military power to repel an attack on the Baltic Republics.

    The reason for the B-52s is probably to drop standoff containers carrying SUU-66/B - you can read up on what they did to an Iraqi division in 2003.
    OK. So President Biden decides he is going to war with Russia. In ordinary times you would expect Americans to be all flag and country. But now? Are the people who think Biden stole the election and is the singular threat to their way of life going to back him getting tangled into a shooting war with Russia which could literally destroy their way of life? Over Litvokranya?

    Putin has undermined the American psyche so badly with Trump that I'd question if Biden could carry public support for using said BUFFs against Russian forces.
    No - he will wait for the Russians to fire the first shot.

    American forces would only get directly involved if there is an attack on a NATO member. If there is such an attack, it would unify American politics.

    So if Putin goes for the Baltics (see @Cicero) then the Americans will be in the game.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,509
    edited February 2022

    Heathener said:

    My theory is that Sunak and Patel are circling ...

    Whereas Bozo is circling the plug hole.
    I foresee an Augustus Gloop type situation then.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,719
    HYUFD said:

    Age divides in the new British politics

    18-24s Lab 47% Con 20%
    25-34s Lab 62% Con 17%
    35-44s Lab 48% Con 25%
    45-54s Lab 46% Con 29%
    55-64s Lab 33% Con 35%
    65s &+ Lab 28% Con 49%
    Source: Redfield & Wilton Feb 7
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1491854196152360966?s=20&t=4KxVjrIqgqbK2JZmJSwiiw

    What's going on with the 18-24s? Surprisingly right wing at their tender age. Or just loads of them voting Green perhaps (Con number is higher but not that much higher than the 25-34s).

    25-34 presumably the age group most frustrated by their inability to afford property.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052

    In other news the threat to Liberty Steel should be a national issue - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/10/thousands-of-liberty-steel-jobs-at-risk-england-hmrc-winding-up-order

    Britain needs the steel products they make and needs the steel production capacity and capabilities they offer. Letting the company go to the wall and the UK reliant on foreign imports is a strategic disaster.

    Supposedly this is the kind of thing Brexit was going to stop. Allowing the UK government to legally provide the exact same state aid that half the EU states provide illegally. And yet as with cutting VAT on energy we campaigned for the right to do so but now choose not to.

    This government really couldn't give a fuck could it?

    If the company goes to the wall, the Sanjeev loses all his money. It doesn't mean everyone loses their jobs. It means that the adminstrators take over.

    If the plants are fundamentally profitable at the operating level (and most are), then they will find new owners. The issue is that Sanjeev has debts of $10bn+ and has to make a $1bn interest payment each year.

    And the plants don't throw off that much money in free cash flow, and he's over-leveraged, and no one wants to lend him more money.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    edited February 2022

    Made the absolute rookie error of searching on Twitter for 'Dick'.

    I should burn this laptop right?

    My advice is to burn the laptop and dump the remains in the sea. Then change your name and stow away on a Liberian freighter bound for Singapore.

    I give you 50/50 that you make it 1 year before they find you....

    Alternatively make for LA and see if you can a bunch of ex-special forces guys to help you. I hear their pilot is a bit twitchy, so watch yourself.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,310
    Omnium said:

    My issue with Boris now is that I really, really don't want to walk away from a voting station having just voted for him. Better, Tory, candidates are available.

    Yes he has to go for many reasons and whilst not the most important this is one of them - so that people who want to vote Tory at the next GE can do so without needing to dash home immediately for a long soapy shower.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,057
    stodge said:

    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.

    Unfortunately, the discussion has become so polarised you either have to risk WW3 or be accused of "appeasing" Putin. A lot of that is hopefully for domestic audiences and the serious diplomats are doing their job in figuring out how to de-escalate this situation.

    Liz Truss strutting around doing her best Margaret Thatcher may impress some but for serious people it's just embarrassing. I imagine Lavrov could barely stop himself laughing.

    Instead of bluster and bravado, we should be establishing what it is Putin actually wants - I'm sure he doesn't want to invade Ukraine (which is a lot of risk for very little reward). There may be a deal to be done including some political recognition for Russian interests east of the Dniepr and a commitment Ukraine will never join NATO (Moldova is in a similar position).
    "I'm sure he doesn't want to invade Ukraine"

    Why are you sure? He's already done it twice in the last seven years - once by proxy.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,097
    Have asked the met police why Cressida Dick has resigned. They say they’re waiting for Sue Gray to investigate.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1491849486066491398
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,097
    Person who should never have been given the job in the first place finally resigns after umpteenth scandal. Boris Johnson remains in post.
    https://twitter.com/MisanthropeGirl/status/1491856012797779970
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521
    rcs1000 said:

    In other news the threat to Liberty Steel should be a national issue - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/10/thousands-of-liberty-steel-jobs-at-risk-england-hmrc-winding-up-order

    Britain needs the steel products they make and needs the steel production capacity and capabilities they offer. Letting the company go to the wall and the UK reliant on foreign imports is a strategic disaster.

    Supposedly this is the kind of thing Brexit was going to stop. Allowing the UK government to legally provide the exact same state aid that half the EU states provide illegally. And yet as with cutting VAT on energy we campaigned for the right to do so but now choose not to.

    This government really couldn't give a fuck could it?

    If the company goes to the wall, the Sanjeev loses all his money. It doesn't mean everyone loses their jobs. It means that the adminstrators take over.

    If the plants are fundamentally profitable at the operating level (and most are), then they will find new owners. The issue is that Sanjeev has debts of $10bn+ and has to make a $1bn interest payment each year.

    And the plants don't throw off that much money in free cash flow, and he's over-leveraged, and no one wants to lend him more money.
    Note that such a bankruptcy turned OneWeb from a dead turkey to a must-buy.

    The plants without the debt.... yum.....
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,097
    If neither the Sun or Star use 'Khan gets Dick out' the game has gone, lads.
    https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1491854100278956035
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    - ”… Johnson recording a net MINUS 42% rating.”

    Huh? That’s nothing.

    Sturgeon 13%
    Scottish Government 7%
    Anas Sarwar 1%
    Keir Starmer -10
    Patrick Harvie -15
    Alex Cole-Hamilton -15
    Lorna Slater -15
    Rishi Sunak -19
    Douglas Ross -21
    UK Government -50
    Alex Salmond -62
    Boris Johnson -62

    (Savanta ComRes/The Scotsman; 14-18 January; 1,004)
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,676
    Does Priti like Dick?
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    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Age divides in the new British politics

    18-24s Lab 47% Con 20%
    25-34s Lab 62% Con 17%
    35-44s Lab 48% Con 25%
    45-54s Lab 46% Con 29%
    55-64s Lab 33% Con 35%
    65s &+ Lab 28% Con 49%
    Source: Redfield & Wilton Feb 7
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1491854196152360966?s=20&t=4KxVjrIqgqbK2JZmJSwiiw

    What's going on with the 18-24s? Surprisingly right wing at their tender age. Or just loads of them voting Green perhaps (Con number is higher but not that much higher than the 25-34s).

    25-34 presumably the age group most frustrated by their inability to afford property.
    18-24yos still being influenced by their parents' political views, perhaps, and haven't yet realised the full extent of the scorched Earth Neoliberal hell-scape that the Tory party has created for them to live in. Nice to see that my own Gen X age bracket is still reliably left wing.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,521

    stodge said:

    To put the Russia - NATO brinksmanship into context, take a step back from the table and look at the strategic overview. On one side of the table we have Russia. Essentially a dictatorship, Putin can do what he wants. On the other side we have Ukraine - not remotely as strong - and the NATO powers who are really not worried about Ukraine but more worried about NATO members in the Baltic.

    The advantages for Russia - its in their back yard so aside from the political claims on the area their supply chain to forces is simple, NATO are divided and relatively weak, the US President can huff but will he puff?

    A united NATO - pledged to the defence of a non-NATO member in Russia's back yard - could make Putin at least pause for thought. But we don't have unity and resolve and we aren't likely to get it even if the next target is Lithuania.

    Because when push comes to shove are the Europeans really going to throw their populations into the fire over that? In the Cold War they would have been fighting for their own survival against invading soviet forces - any breakout of nuclear war would have turned West Germany into molten glass. But here in 2022? They won't. And Putin knows it.

    So the solution to this isn't fly a squadron of B52s in and make baseless threats of force. Its go after all the Russian money that's in our territory. You can't invade Ukraine and wherever you like without facing the wrath of the people who own the Russian state. Again, Putin has to pause for thought.

    But stop making baseless cold war threats. We aren't going to risk nuclear annihilation over Ukraine and Putin knows it.

    Unfortunately, the discussion has become so polarised you either have to risk WW3 or be accused of "appeasing" Putin. A lot of that is hopefully for domestic audiences and the serious diplomats are doing their job in figuring out how to de-escalate this situation.

    Liz Truss strutting around doing her best Margaret Thatcher may impress some but for serious people it's just embarrassing. I imagine Lavrov could barely stop himself laughing.

    Instead of bluster and bravado, we should be establishing what it is Putin actually wants - I'm sure he doesn't want to invade Ukraine (which is a lot of risk for very little reward). There may be a deal to be done including some political recognition for Russian interests east of the Dniepr and a commitment Ukraine will never join NATO (Moldova is in a similar position).
    "I'm sure he doesn't want to invade Ukraine"

    Why are you sure? He's already done it twice in the last seven years - once by proxy.
    Indeed - it's like saying ex-PC Simon Harwood doesn't want to hit people.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    In other news the threat to Liberty Steel should be a national issue - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/10/thousands-of-liberty-steel-jobs-at-risk-england-hmrc-winding-up-order

    Britain needs the steel products they make and needs the steel production capacity and capabilities they offer. Letting the company go to the wall and the UK reliant on foreign imports is a strategic disaster.

    Supposedly this is the kind of thing Brexit was going to stop. Allowing the UK government to legally provide the exact same state aid that half the EU states provide illegally. And yet as with cutting VAT on energy we campaigned for the right to do so but now choose not to.

    This government really couldn't give a fuck could it?

    If the company goes to the wall, the Sanjeev loses all his money. It doesn't mean everyone loses their jobs. It means that the adminstrators take over.

    If the plants are fundamentally profitable at the operating level (and most are), then they will find new owners. The issue is that Sanjeev has debts of $10bn+ and has to make a $1bn interest payment each year.

    And the plants don't throw off that much money in free cash flow, and he's over-leveraged, and no one wants to lend him more money.
    Note that such a bankruptcy turned OneWeb from a dead turkey to a must-buy.

    The plants without the debt.... yum.....
    If we get that - great. But we have a proud track record of letting them fold and then close. Primary industry tends to be loss-making thanks to cheap production costs and subsidies elsewhere. So we can't rely on "they're really profitable".
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    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Age divides in the new British politics

    18-24s Lab 47% Con 20%
    25-34s Lab 62% Con 17%
    35-44s Lab 48% Con 25%
    45-54s Lab 46% Con 29%
    55-64s Lab 33% Con 35%
    65s &+ Lab 28% Con 49%
    Source: Redfield & Wilton Feb 7
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1491854196152360966?s=20&t=4KxVjrIqgqbK2JZmJSwiiw

    What's going on with the 18-24s? Surprisingly right wing at their tender age. Or just loads of them voting Green perhaps (Con number is higher but not that much higher than the 25-34s).

    25-34 presumably the age group most frustrated by their inability to afford property.
    18-24yos still being influenced by their parents' political views, perhaps, and haven't yet realised the full extent of the scorched Earth Neoliberal hell-scape that the Tory party has created for them to live in. Nice to see that my own Gen X age bracket is still reliably left wing.
    Labour = left wing ?

    Well, it’s a theory.
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    rcs1000 said:

    In other news the threat to Liberty Steel should be a national issue - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/10/thousands-of-liberty-steel-jobs-at-risk-england-hmrc-winding-up-order

    Britain needs the steel products they make and needs the steel production capacity and capabilities they offer. Letting the company go to the wall and the UK reliant on foreign imports is a strategic disaster.

    Supposedly this is the kind of thing Brexit was going to stop. Allowing the UK government to legally provide the exact same state aid that half the EU states provide illegally. And yet as with cutting VAT on energy we campaigned for the right to do so but now choose not to.

    This government really couldn't give a fuck could it?

    If the company goes to the wall, the Sanjeev loses all his money. It doesn't mean everyone loses their jobs. It means that the adminstrators take over.

    If the plants are fundamentally profitable at the operating level (and most are), then they will find new owners. The issue is that Sanjeev has debts of $10bn+ and has to make a $1bn interest payment each year.

    And the plants don't throw off that much money in free cash flow, and he's over-leveraged, and no one wants to lend him more money.
    Note that such a bankruptcy turned OneWeb from a dead turkey to a must-buy.

    The plants without the debt.... yum.....
    Sale of British strategic asset to American private equity incoming.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    Scott_xP said:

    Person who should never have been given the job in the first place finally resigns after umpteenth scandal. Boris Johnson remains in post.
    https://twitter.com/MisanthropeGirl/status/1491856012797779970

    As does Amanda Spielman...
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    I think there will be three LD wins in tonight's local by elections. Maybe an outside chance of a Lab gain from LD in Eastleigh Central.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Age divides in the new British politics

    18-24s Lab 47% Con 20%
    25-34s Lab 62% Con 17%
    35-44s Lab 48% Con 25%
    45-54s Lab 46% Con 29%
    55-64s Lab 33% Con 35%
    65s &+ Lab 28% Con 49%
    Source: Redfield & Wilton Feb 7
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1491854196152360966?s=20&t=4KxVjrIqgqbK2JZmJSwiiw

    What's going on with the 18-24s? Surprisingly right wing at their tender age. Or just loads of them voting Green perhaps (Con number is higher but not that much higher than the 25-34s).

    25-34 presumably the age group most frustrated by their inability to afford property.
    The most surprising group is the 55-64s, that's horrific for Boris. Labour approaching landslide territory based on those splits IMO.
This discussion has been closed.