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Italy makes vaccinations compulsory for the over 50s – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 23 in General
imageItaly makes vaccinations compulsory for the over 50s – politicalbetting.com

The sheer scale of the number of infections to the latest omnicom variant and the speed that it is spreading have caused Italy to be the first major country to make vaccinations compulsory. This will be for those of 50 and above.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,006
    First unlike Djokovic
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,216
    edited January 6
    Unless Novax changes his tune, his career will soon become very difficult to continue. Vaccine mandates will only become more common.
  • PensfoldPensfold Posts: 166
    Testing
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,216
    Normal service has been resumed in the cricket. Australia amassing a big total with ease, dropped catch at a crucial time and Stokes injured.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,216
    Israel COVID update: New cases at record-high, up 400% from last week

    - New cases: 17,232
    - Average: 7,798 (+916)
    - In hospital: 290 (+39)
    - In ICU: 50 (+2)
    - New deaths: 6
    - Average: 1 (-)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,216
    Xi'an Xianyang International Airport, one of China's busiest airports, cancels all remaining flights amid COVID outbreak
  • Xi'an Xianyang International Airport, one of China's busiest airports, cancels all remaining flights amid COVID outbreak

    Must just be Omicron then. If it was anything to worry about they'd be closing domestic flights only.

    Ashes is cancelled. No cricket on tonight it seems.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897
    Wakes up. Looks at cricket score. Goes back to bed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,216
    This is where the hope kills you in the cricket. You think perhaps England can rip through the final 5 wickets for 50, instead the tail will get another 150 and England screwed.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,011
    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,216
    USA, USA, USA, #1.....

    BREAKING: U.S. reports 716,714 new coronavirus cases, setting world record for cases in one day
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,216
    edited January 6

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 45,326

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    I believe they're planning on shooting the unvaccinated.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,009

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,721
    edited January 6
    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Indeed. That’ll be the first step. If that is insufficient then, as Francis points out, it is super easy to make life hell for refusers and totally exclude unvaccinated visitors.

    Incidentally, Italy abandoned need for PCR confirmation of positive LFT test three days ago. LFT result deemed sufficient proof.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,721
    Just perusing the details of the year’s first poll, by Redfield and Wilton.

    The Tories are failing to retain a huge chunk of people who voted for them in 2019. So are the Lib Dems, but presumably that is mostly folk who refused to back Corbyn now willing to vote tactically for Starmer’s party to get rid of the Sleaze Party.

    The SNP has fantastic retention (I cannot recall ever seeing any party retaining 96% before). And those 2% LD-voters and 1% Lab-voters planning on voting SNP next time round might look tiny in a UK context, but are huge chunks of the SLD and SLab vote.

    Retention of 2019 voters:

    SNP 96% (Grn 3%, LD 2%)
    Lab 86% (Grn 4%, Con 4%, LD 3%, SNP 1%, Refuk 1%)
    Con 79% (Lab 11%, Refuk 5%, LD 3%)
    LD 70% (Lab 17%, Con 8%, Grn 3%, SNP 2%)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,721
    57% of abstainers are planning on voting Labour next time round. I’ll believe it when I see it. DNVs rarely change their habits. Mind you, when they do, the results can be spectacular.

    How are 2019 DNVs planning on voting next time:

    Lab 57%
    Con 20%
    LD 8%
    Grn 6%
    Refuk 6%
    Will not vote, again 4%

    (Redfield & Wilton Strategies, 3 January, sample = 2,000)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897

    This is where the hope kills you in the cricket. You think perhaps England can rip through the final 5 wickets for 50, instead the tail will get another 150 and England screwed.

    You’re way too optimistic there… The tail will get at least 200.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,721
    I note that Italy is the current FAV in the ‘Next Country to Leave EU’ market. But surely liquidity must be minuscule in this market? If the market ever is settled (dubious), it might be pay day in 20 to 50 year’s time, maybe 70 to 100 years. These betting firms and exchanges will probably have ceased to exist by then.

    Next state to leave the European Union?

    Italy 7/2
    Greece 6/1
    Poland 7/1
    France 8/1
    Austria 12/1
    Czechia 13/1
    Netherlands 14/1
    Spain 14/1
    Hungary 14/1
    Portugal 16/1
    Cyprus 18/1
    Belgium 25/1
    Ireland 25/1
    Sweden 33/1
    Germany 33/1
    Croatia 33/1
    Bulgaria 33/1
    Slovenia 33/1
    Denmark 33/1
    Slovakia 33/1
    Romania 33/1
    Finland 40/1
    Estonia 40/1
    Latvia 40/1
    Lithuania 40/1
    Malta 50/1
    Luxembourg 66/1
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,721
    Other news from Italy includes a breakthrough in motor neurone disease research:

    - The lack of an enzyme in the body causes the fatal nerve-wasting disease Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) or Lou Gehrig's Disease, an Italian study has shown, raising hope for new treatment options.

    - Italy’s inflation rate hits 3.9%

    - Sicily returning fragment of Parthenon to Greece (Ahem… British Museum)

    - Cases of COVID-19 in children and teenagers below the age of 18 in Italy almost doubled in the week between December 28 and January 3. The number of youngsters hospitalised also almost doubled from 66 to 123.

    - Italy's small islands will be 'exiled' by vaccine restrictions, warn mayors. From Monday, Italy will only allow vaccinated citizens who have a "super green pass" to use public transport, such as planes and boats. The pass will only work for Italians who have been fully vaccinated against the virus or have recently recovered from infection. A negative test will no longer be sufficient to use transport under next week's new rules. But a number of officials have warned that some island residents will now be unable to travel to the Italian mainland and will find themselves in "forced exile". Most of Italy's 87 small islands -- which are represented by ANCIM -- have no permanent health facilities.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,497
    Interesting figures in the cost of lateral flow tests.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/05/uk-firm-goes-from-debt-to-205m-thanks-to-lucrative-covid-test-deals

    Note that they are both expensive (the margin on them for both the Chinese manufacturers and the US middlemen Innova will be very large), and an absolute bargain compared to PCR. Which they are also vastly superior to in terms of preventing mass transmission.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,553
    Good morning, everyone.

    Welcome to PB, Mr. Pensfold.

    Not a fan of mandatory vaccination.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 44,285
    Are there restrictions within Schengen to prevent movement of the unvaxxed? Presumably nobody wants to take in unvaxxed as they are a drain on the local health services.

    Going to be an interesting test of human rights when some anti-vaxxers cite Article 2 of the ECHR - claiming they are being deprived of their right to life by a compulsory vaccination that could give them a deadly blood clot....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897

    This is where the hope kills you in the cricket. You think perhaps England can rip through the final 5 wickets for 50, instead the tail will get another 150 and England screwed.

    Those last 5 wickets - 174/3dec

    Shall we just tell the England players to get themselves on the same plane as No-Vax the tennis player?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,123

    Good morning, everyone.

    Welcome to PB, Mr. Pensfold.

    Not a fan of mandatory vaccination.

    Good morning everyone. I second the welcome to Mr (I assume) P.

    We, and other countries, might not have compulsory vaccination but I suggest that vaxports... are raising their head again.
    How do I feel about them; not sure.

    Wonder what the result of Djokovic's lawyer's intervention will be!
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261

    Good morning, everyone.

    Welcome to PB, Mr. Pensfold.

    Not a fan of mandatory vaccination.

    Good morning everyone. I second the welcome to Mr (I assume) P.

    We, and other countries, might not have compulsory vaccination but I suggest that vaxports... are raising their head again.
    How do I feel about them; not sure.

    Wonder what the result of Djokovic's lawyer's intervention will be!
    Her needs and injection not an injunction!
  • eekeek Posts: 19,222
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting figures in the cost of lateral flow tests.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/05/uk-firm-goes-from-debt-to-205m-thanks-to-lucrative-covid-test-deals

    Note that they are both expensive (the margin on them for both the Chinese manufacturers and the US middlemen Innova will be very large), and an absolute bargain compared to PCR. Which they are also vastly superior to in terms of preventing mass transmission.

    That URL makes the story bigger than it actually is

    The company, Disruptive Nanotechnology, has gone from debts to £20.5m (URLs can hide very important full stops).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,553
    King Cole, whether the legal action succeeds in getting him a tournament spot, it won't endear him to the general public.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,222
    edited January 6

    Other news from Italy includes a breakthrough in motor neurone disease research:

    - The lack of an enzyme in the body causes the fatal nerve-wasting disease Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) or Lou Gehrig's Disease, an Italian study has shown, raising hope for new treatment options.

    - Italy’s inflation rate hits 3.9%

    - Sicily returning fragment of Parthenon to Greece (Ahem… British Museum)

    - Cases of COVID-19 in children and teenagers below the age of 18 in Italy almost doubled in the week between December 28 and January 3. The number of youngsters hospitalised also almost doubled from 66 to 123.

    - Italy's small islands will be 'exiled' by vaccine restrictions, warn mayors. From Monday, Italy will only allow vaccinated citizens who have a "super green pass" to use public transport, such as planes and boats. The pass will only work for Italians who have been fully vaccinated against the virus or have recently recovered from infection. A negative test will no longer be sufficient to use transport under next week's new rules. But a number of officials have warned that some island residents will now be unable to travel to the Italian mainland and will find themselves in "forced exile". Most of Italy's 87 small islands -- which are represented by ANCIM -- have no permanent health facilities.

    That last bit of the Italy news is one of those completely expected unexpected stories. A tiny set of people due to a particular set of circumstances have problems because no-one thought about them. Should be fixable easily enough given that the home addresses of the people will be known.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 48,680
    Sandpit said:

    This is where the hope kills you in the cricket. You think perhaps England can rip through the final 5 wickets for 50, instead the tail will get another 150 and England screwed.

    Those last 5 wickets - 174/3dec

    Shall we just tell the England players to get themselves on the same plane as No-Vax the tennis player?
    Or perhaps we could ask Djokovic to play the final test on his lonesome wearing a hazmat suit?

    Hard to see how he could do worse.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,457
    We were talking the other day about Don't Look Up and @Leon was saying that in his opinion the latter half of the film is spoiled by portraying Trump supporters as morons. Well according to the latest poll shows that nearly half of Americans don't think Biden won the election https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory

    I'm not saying they are stupid as was suggested. They are being gaslit on an epic scale by their media. But Biden DID win the election. Massively. Fairly. Demonstrably. That they still don't believe it is bonkers.

    So I think the film got it pitch perfect. Here is something undeniably true. Just look at it. No, its a fake, don't look at it.

    57% of Americans think a repeat attempted coup is likely to occur again. Perhaps the Canadian professor was right and the land of the Maple leaf needs to start preparing for refugees fleeing Gilead...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,009
    Novax is staying in Oz pending a full federal hearing on Monday
  • MattWMattW Posts: 13,833
    eek said:

    Other news from Italy includes a breakthrough in motor neurone disease research:

    - The lack of an enzyme in the body causes the fatal nerve-wasting disease Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS) or Lou Gehrig's Disease, an Italian study has shown, raising hope for new treatment options.

    - Italy’s inflation rate hits 3.9%

    - Sicily returning fragment of Parthenon to Greece (Ahem… British Museum)

    - Cases of COVID-19 in children and teenagers below the age of 18 in Italy almost doubled in the week between December 28 and January 3. The number of youngsters hospitalised also almost doubled from 66 to 123.

    - Italy's small islands will be 'exiled' by vaccine restrictions, warn mayors. From Monday, Italy will only allow vaccinated citizens who have a "super green pass" to use public transport, such as planes and boats. The pass will only work for Italians who have been fully vaccinated against the virus or have recently recovered from infection. A negative test will no longer be sufficient to use transport under next week's new rules. But a number of officials have warned that some island residents will now be unable to travel to the Italian mainland and will find themselves in "forced exile". Most of Italy's 87 small islands -- which are represented by ANCIM -- have no permanent health facilities.

    That last bit of the Italy news is one of those completely expected unexpected stories. A tiny set of people due to a particular set of circumstances have problems because no-one thought about them. Should be fixable easily enough given that the home addresses of the people will be known.
    So a small miss in thinking about the rollout, to be corrected asap we hope.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 70,194
    Sandpit said:

    This is where the hope kills you in the cricket. You think perhaps England can rip through the final 5 wickets for 50, instead the tail will get another 150 and England screwed.

    Those last 5 wickets - 174/3dec

    Shall we just tell the England players to get themselves on the same plane as No-Vax the tennis player?
    I note even when we're bowling the batsman via Root's drop was the most expensive moment of the inninngs
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897
    IanB2 said:

    Novax is staying in Oz pending a full federal hearing on Monday

    Presumably his management have found an expensive immigration lawyer in Sydney, who’s managed to convince them not to put him on the next plane back to Europe.

    Life as a travelling sportsman will be a complete pain in the proverbial, if he ends up with “DEPORTED” stamped in his passport.

    Life as a travelling sportsman will also be a pain in the proverbial, if he keeps insisting on not being vaccinated.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,271
    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,350
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
    What was one of the interesting things about that discussion of the Colston statue last night was the argument that it was an active act of denial of history in order to titivate Colston's image ('whitewash' would be an unfortunate but perhaps apt expression). The late C19 erectors would certainly qualify as "people who continually do [history] down and seek to relitigate historic sins". As, for example, were the moral warriors of the C19 who tried to prevent Burns's statues on the grounds of his infidelity and immorality. Statue wars are nothing new, and anyone who tries to set history in aspic, or rather in marble and bronze, is in denial of history.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,653
    I'm probably the most pro vaccine person on this board, if not the world, but even I object to mandatory vaccinations.

    I am in favour of making the lives of the non medically exempt unvaccinated hell though.

    No benefits for them, ban them from public transport, cinemas, theatres, restaurants, gigs, leaving the country, supermarkets, owning cars etc.

    Heck, even deny them the vote.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,457
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Novax is staying in Oz pending a full federal hearing on Monday

    Presumably his management have found an expensive immigration lawyer in Sydney, who’s managed to convince them not to put him on the next plane back to Europe.

    Life as a travelling sportsman will be a complete pain in the proverbial, if he ends up with “DEPORTED” stamped in his passport.

    Life as a travelling sportsman will also be a pain in the proverbial, if he keeps insisting on not being vaccinated.
    I hope they stick to the ban. No you can't come in is a powerful message to anti-vax wankers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,245
    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,937
    rcs1000 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    I believe they're planning on shooting the unvaccinated.
    Not if they remain in the EU they're not. Sovereign Brexit Britain on the other hand...
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,533
    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    Any specific examples of who is included in/excluded from "parasites destroying the host" (very unfortunate language in the context)?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 1,488
    edited January 6

    I'm probably the most pro vaccine person on this board, if not the world, but even I object to mandatory vaccinations.

    I am in favour of making the lives of the non medically exempt unvaccinated hell though.

    No benefits for them, ban them from public transport, cinemas, theatres, restaurants, gigs, leaving the country, supermarkets, owning cars etc.

    Heck, even deny them the vote.

    The vote is sacrosanct. Even murderers in prison should have it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,350
    Eabhal said:

    I'm probably the most pro vaccine person on this board, if not the world, but even I object to mandatory vaccinations.

    I am in favour of making the lives of the non medically exempt unvaccinated hell though.

    No benefits for them, ban them from public transport, cinemas, theatres, restaurants, gigs, leaving the country, supermarkets, owning cars etc.

    Heck, even deny them the vote.

    The vote is sacrosanct. Even murderers in prison should have it.
    Prisoners with sentences of up to 12 months do in Scotland, as I expect you know - cross party vote in 2020 (with the predictable exception of the Tories).

    Not many murderers come under that aegis, though, I expect.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 22,341

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits.

    As the evidence available to us changes so does our interpretaion.

    "History" is not fixed even if the actual events themselves are.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,350

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits. It isn't to super-impose modern day political sensibilities, and that can not only pervert by the bastardry of revisionism what history is taught but make it outright inaccurate.

    In Justin Pollard's biography of Alfred he explains that Ivar the Boneless' odd nickname may be down to a mistranslation. In another book on Norse history (well, mythology, but the Sons of Ragnar cover both) it is written without any qualification or alternative that the nickname is because Ivar had cartilage rather than bones and was taken as proof of the shift away from battlefront prowess towards respect for intelligence in leadership.

    Vikings always approved of cunning, but the second approach cuts out a valuable, and more probable, explanation of the name.

    I recently read a Greek history in which the historian unashamedly referred to Marxism as being a good way to interpret the past. Needless to say, I did not agree.

    Isn't a new attempt at accurate relation itself a reinterpretion by its nature? New evidence, new ideas ...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 13,833

    rcs1000 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    I believe they're planning on shooting the unvaccinated.
    Not if they remain in the EU they're not. Sovereign Brexit Britain on the other hand...
    Remind me - which countries are being most harsh amongst France, Italy, UK? :wink:
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,023
    edited January 6
    I only wish I could work out why Omicron is mutating into Omnicron. And now, apparently, even "Omnicom".
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,937

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits. It isn't to super-impose modern day political sensibilities, and that can not only pervert by the bastardry of revisionism what history is taught but make it outright inaccurate.

    In Justin Pollard's biography of Alfred he explains that Ivar the Boneless' odd nickname may be down to a mistranslation. In another book on Norse history (well, mythology, but the Sons of Ragnar cover both) it is written without any qualification or alternative that the nickname is because Ivar had cartilage rather than bones and was taken as proof of the shift away from battlefront prowess towards respect for intelligence in leadership.

    Vikings always approved of cunning, but the second approach cuts out a valuable, and more probable, explanation of the name.

    I recently read a Greek history in which the historian unashamedly referred to Marxism as being a good way to interpret the past. Needless to say, I did not agree.

    But he was dead right. It's an incredibly interesting way of looking at the ancient world to ask who was producing what, and who was getting what was produced, rather than just focus on hoplites and triremes
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,245

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits. It isn't to super-impose modern day political sensibilities, and that can not only pervert by the bastardry of revisionism what history is taught but make it outright inaccurate.

    In Justin Pollard's biography of Alfred he explains that Ivar the Boneless' odd nickname may be down to a mistranslation. In another book on Norse history (well, mythology, but the Sons of Ragnar cover both) it is written without any qualification or alternative that the nickname is because Ivar had cartilage rather than bones and was taken as proof of the shift away from battlefront prowess towards respect for intelligence in leadership.

    Vikings always approved of cunning, but the second approach cuts out a valuable, and more probable, explanation of the name.

    I recently read a Greek history in which the historian unashamedly referred to Marxism as being a good way to interpret the past. Needless to say, I did not agree.

    The whole Marxist Historian thing distorted a lot of history. I once had a bizarre conversation with a follower of that tribe - who could not accept that Henry VIII actually believed in what he did. In his (the historians view) the upper class *must* have been cynical, self-knowing atheists.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,321
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
    But you cannot reinterpret history without first studying it.

    Our current lot of aspirational iconoclasts do not want to study history; they want to use it as a quarry to pick out bits and pieces to justify the things they want to do, or have done.

    Those talking about 'slavery' want to ignore the black tribes who sold captives from other black tribes to the white man and the Islamic man in order to make money; they want to ignore black on black slavery in Africa (both still within contemporary memory);

    They want to forget about the Barbary Trade enslaving European people; they want to ignore the role of Empire in stopping slavery; and they (and perhaps we) want to ignore the wider historical compass, such as the role of slavery as foundational for the ancient societies we say we admire.

    They (and we) also need to think about the historic practice of selling-off of war captives.

    And they want to destroy history, without studying it in the round.

    That imo is why the unthinking anti-colonialist, BLM movements etc have to be questioned strongly enough to remove such deliberate biases.
    I would enthusiastically remove any statues to Barbary slavers on British High streets if you can direct me to them.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 50,547

    We were talking the other day about Don't Look Up and @Leon was saying that in his opinion the latter half of the film is spoiled by portraying Trump supporters as morons. Well according to the latest poll shows that nearly half of Americans don't think Biden won the election https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory

    I'm not saying they are stupid as was suggested. They are being gaslit on an epic scale by their media. But Biden DID win the election. Massively. Fairly. Demonstrably. That they still don't believe it is bonkers.

    So I think the film got it pitch perfect. Here is something undeniably true. Just look at it. No, its a fake, don't look at it.

    57% of Americans think a repeat attempted coup is likely to occur again. Perhaps the Canadian professor was right and the land of the Maple leaf needs to start preparing for refugees fleeing Gilead...

    Time is running out for America. I see no sign of any acceptance of the urgency of the situation. Plenty of op-eds in NY Times warning about 2024, but nothing seems to happen.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,723
    Chris said:

    I only wish I could work out why Omicron is mutating into Omnicron. And now, apparently, even "Omnicom".

    Being a little sad, I remember it as the ultimate chip lithography process : 0 Micron.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783
    Alistair said:

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits.

    As the evidence available to us changes so does our interpretaion.

    "History" is not fixed even if the actual events themselves are.
    Only the future is certain, the past is constantly changing.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 6,361
    Never mind all that - what's happening in Kazakhstan? Dramatic revolution in medium sized country entirely removed from world's attention by petulant tennis player.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,321
    Chris said:

    I only wish I could work out why Omicron is mutating into Omnicron. And now, apparently, even "Omnicom".

    Because stupidity is already endemic.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,146

    I'm probably the most pro vaccine person on this board, if not the world, but even I object to mandatory vaccinations.

    I am in favour of making the lives of the non medically exempt unvaccinated hell though.

    No benefits for them, ban them from public transport, cinemas, theatres, restaurants, gigs, leaving the country, supermarkets, owning cars etc.

    Heck, even deny them the vote.

    What you are advocating is the setting up of a inferior class of person because they have made a particular legal choice.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. You cannot in a liberal democracy demand these things unless vaccination is firstly made mandatory. Otherwise this would be taking away rights from a cohort of people who had done nothing illegal.

    Up to then, individuals who make their own choices within the law are entitled to protection against the views you espouse.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,245
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,616
    Chris said:

    I only wish I could work out why Omicron is mutating into Omnicron. And now, apparently, even "Omnicom".

    When it gets to comicon, that's when the real baddies will appear
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,845
    Mandatory vaccination also due to come in in Germany this year
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,350

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits. It isn't to super-impose modern day political sensibilities, and that can not only pervert by the bastardry of revisionism what history is taught but make it outright inaccurate.

    In Justin Pollard's biography of Alfred he explains that Ivar the Boneless' odd nickname may be down to a mistranslation. In another book on Norse history (well, mythology, but the Sons of Ragnar cover both) it is written without any qualification or alternative that the nickname is because Ivar had cartilage rather than bones and was taken as proof of the shift away from battlefront prowess towards respect for intelligence in leadership.

    Vikings always approved of cunning, but the second approach cuts out a valuable, and more probable, explanation of the name.

    I recently read a Greek history in which the historian unashamedly referred to Marxism as being a good way to interpret the past. Needless to say, I did not agree.

    The whole Marxist Historian thing distorted a lot of history. I once had a bizarre conversation with a follower of that tribe - who could not accept that Henry VIII actually believed in what he did. In his (the historians view) the upper class *must* have been cynical, self-knowing atheists.
    Oh, quite. But the basic point si surely valid that economics and therefore class structure are worth inquiring into as one approach, as my history schoolmaster - no Marxist politician he - taught us.

    For instance, the Viking ship, which is a highly sophisticated vehicle. Was it solely dispersed farmer-craftsmen and -women who created it or does it hide a complex social and economic structure?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,497
    .
    IshmaelZ said:

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits. It isn't to super-impose modern day political sensibilities, and that can not only pervert by the bastardry of revisionism what history is taught but make it outright inaccurate.

    In Justin Pollard's biography of Alfred he explains that Ivar the Boneless' odd nickname may be down to a mistranslation. In another book on Norse history (well, mythology, but the Sons of Ragnar cover both) it is written without any qualification or alternative that the nickname is because Ivar had cartilage rather than bones and was taken as proof of the shift away from battlefront prowess towards respect for intelligence in leadership.

    Vikings always approved of cunning, but the second approach cuts out a valuable, and more probable, explanation of the name.

    I recently read a Greek history in which the historian unashamedly referred to Marxism as being a good way to interpret the past. Needless to say, I did not agree.

    But he was dead right. It's an incredibly interesting way of looking at the ancient world to ask who was producing what, and who was getting what was produced, rather than just focus on hoplites and triremes
    Agreed. Though in those terms, "Marxist" is a fairly anachronistic label which carries a deal of unnecessary baggage.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,350

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
    Or have the dragoons billeted on you for free.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,723
    IMV there are two types of vaccine refusers:

    *) Those who, for whatever reason, choose not to get vaccinated but don't spread antivax propaganda.
    *) Those who actively are unvaccinated, and gleefully spread antivax propaganda.

    Both types are problematic, but the latter group are those who really need targeting. One of the latter group is a parent at my son's school, and he is often spreading antivax propaganda over the village's FB page. He seems to take a manic glee in the arguments it causes - although he doesn't seem to realise that many people don't see TikTok as a valid source of information. ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,845
    edited January 6

    We were talking the other day about Don't Look Up and @Leon was saying that in his opinion the latter half of the film is spoiled by portraying Trump supporters as morons. Well according to the latest poll shows that nearly half of Americans don't think Biden won the election https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory

    I'm not saying they are stupid as was suggested. They are being gaslit on an epic scale by their media. But Biden DID win the election. Massively. Fairly. Demonstrably. That they still don't believe it is bonkers.

    So I think the film got it pitch perfect. Here is something undeniably true. Just look at it. No, its a fake, don't look at it.

    57% of Americans think a repeat attempted coup is likely to occur again. Perhaps the Canadian professor was right and the land of the Maple leaf needs to start preparing for refugees fleeing Gilead...

    Trump may actually win the election fair and square and even win the popular vote in 2024.

    Latest poll is Trump 44% Biden 38% with 8% of Biden 2020 voters now backing Trump

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joe-biden-administration-approval-ratings-and-hypothetical-voting-intention-18-december-2021/
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,783
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
    What was one of the interesting things about that discussion of the Colston statue last night was the argument that it was an active act of denial of history in order to titivate Colston's image ('whitewash' would be an unfortunate but perhaps apt expression). The late C19 erectors would certainly qualify as "people who continually do [history] down and seek to relitigate historic sins". As, for example, were the moral warriors of the C19 who tried to prevent Burns's statues on the grounds of his infidelity and immorality. Statue wars are nothing new, and anyone who tries to set history in aspic, or rather in marble and bronze, is in denial of history.
    Whilst I agree with most of that throwing a public statue into the harbour is still criminal damage and not the way to resolve these issues. The jury was wrong and the senior counsel representing the accused was dangerously irresponsible. The rule of law is important and is of particular importance in the protection of the vulnerable and exploited in our society.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,497

    Chris said:

    I only wish I could work out why Omicron is mutating into Omnicron. And now, apparently, even "Omnicom".

    Because stupidity is already endemic.
    No, it's just how language works. Most people aren't pedants like us, and words get modified all the time.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Novax is staying in Oz pending a full federal hearing on Monday

    Assuming there’s been no technical error on the Australian side, I don’t see how they can back down politically
  • eekeek Posts: 19,222

    IMV there are two types of vaccine refusers:

    *) Those who, for whatever reason, choose not to get vaccinated but don't spread antivax propaganda.
    *) Those who actively are unvaccinated, and gleefully spread antivax propaganda.

    Both types are problematic, but the latter group are those who really need targeting. One of the latter group is a parent at my son's school, and he is often spreading antivax propaganda over the village's FB page. He seems to take a manic glee in the arguments it causes - although he doesn't seem to realise that many people don't see TikTok as a valid source of information. ;)

    The solution there is to become a moderator on the village's FB page and ban him.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
    They’ve also banned unvaccinated citizens from overseas travel, and I expect they’ll soon require vaccination for expat visa renewals, as Singapore has done already.

    The way I’d do it in the UK, is an NI surcharge of 5%, which raises a lot of money but is cheap to administer, and for arrivals in the country to either produce vaccination papers or have a week’s institutional quarantine at their own expense.

    I strongly dislike restrictions on eg. bars and sporting events, which inconvenience everyone including small businesses.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I'm probably the most pro vaccine person on this board, if not the world, but even I object to mandatory vaccinations.

    I am in favour of making the lives of the non medically exempt unvaccinated hell though.

    No benefits for them, ban them from public transport, cinemas, theatres, restaurants, gigs, leaving the country, supermarkets, owning cars etc.

    Heck, even deny them the vote.

    So they only have freedom if they do what you tell them to?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Novax is staying in Oz pending a full federal hearing on Monday

    Assuming there’s been no technical error on the Australian side, I don’t see how they can back down politically
    Which is presumably his argument - that this is a politically-motivated decision in an election year, and not in accordance with the law as is written.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,222
    edited January 6
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
    They’ve also banned unvaccinated citizens from overseas travel, and I expect they’ll soon require vaccination for expat visa renewals, as Singapore has done already.

    The way I’d do it in the UK, is an NI surcharge of 5%, which raises a lot of money but is cheap to administer, and for arrivals in the country to either produce vaccination papers or have a week’s institutional quarantine at their own expense.

    I strongly dislike restrictions on eg. bars and sporting events, which inconvenience everyone including small businesses.
    It wouldn't be cheap to administer - updating the software to have the appropriate flag is a 7 month project (see the NI changes announced back in September).

    Which reminds me I must check if the new PAYE RTI files are out.

    Payroll is again an IT issue which is why you now find Chancellors announcing stuff a year in advance -

    1) because payroll is awkward
    2) even yesterday I found 2 different fundamental flaws in the methodology used to be 2 different PAYE providers (the workplace pension tax credit is Funnnnnnnnn).

    Way better to insist on regular PCR tests from a private provider with an in person witnesses.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,845

    Just perusing the details of the year’s first poll, by Redfield and Wilton.

    The Tories are failing to retain a huge chunk of people who voted for them in 2019. So are the Lib Dems, but presumably that is mostly folk who refused to back Corbyn now willing to vote tactically for Starmer’s party to get rid of the Sleaze Party.

    The SNP has fantastic retention (I cannot recall ever seeing any party retaining 96% before). And those 2% LD-voters and 1% Lab-voters planning on voting SNP next time round might look tiny in a UK context, but are huge chunks of the SLD and SLab vote.

    Retention of 2019 voters:

    SNP 96% (Grn 3%, LD 2%)
    Lab 86% (Grn 4%, Con 4%, LD 3%, SNP 1%, Refuk 1%)
    Con 79% (Lab 11%, Refuk 5%, LD 3%)
    LD 70% (Lab 17%, Con 8%, Grn 3%, SNP 2%)

    Yet still a 2.5% swing from SNP to SCon on that poll in the Scottish subsample
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,457

    We were talking the other day about Don't Look Up and @Leon was saying that in his opinion the latter half of the film is spoiled by portraying Trump supporters as morons. Well according to the latest poll shows that nearly half of Americans don't think Biden won the election https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory

    I'm not saying they are stupid as was suggested. They are being gaslit on an epic scale by their media. But Biden DID win the election. Massively. Fairly. Demonstrably. That they still don't believe it is bonkers.

    So I think the film got it pitch perfect. Here is something undeniably true. Just look at it. No, its a fake, don't look at it.

    57% of Americans think a repeat attempted coup is likely to occur again. Perhaps the Canadian professor was right and the land of the Maple leaf needs to start preparing for refugees fleeing Gilead...

    Time is running out for America. I see no sign of any acceptance of the urgency of the situation. Plenty of op-eds in NY Times warning about 2024, but nothing seems to happen.
    I know that I am happily quoting pop culture by warning of Gilead. And the book was written in the 80s so its not contemporary. But the notion of it IS absolutely bang up to date. That new Texas law allowing men to shop womenfolk for cash for their crimes of seeking an abortion is straight out of Gilead.

    We know that a significant number of Americans have been persuaded to Don't Look Up, that there was no coup, that the election was stolen. If they can be manipulated to believe things they witnessed to have not happened then they can be manipulated to believe anything.

    There isn't an obvious USA/CSA border split this time is there?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,146
    edited January 6
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
    They’ve also banned unvaccinated citizens from overseas travel, and I expect they’ll soon require vaccination for expat visa renewals, as Singapore has done already.

    The way I’d do it in the UK, is an NI surcharge of 5%, which raises a lot of money but is cheap to administer, and for arrivals in the country to either produce vaccination papers or have a week’s institutional quarantine at their own expense.

    I strongly dislike restrictions on eg. bars and sporting events, which inconvenience everyone including small businesses.
    Yesterday, Austria banned visitors who had have recovered from Covid unless they have been vaccinated since. So now we have a situation where one's contribution towards herd immunity only counts if it is through vaccination rather than natural means. Austria's action, by the way, is contrary to the detail and spirit of EU guidelines.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,151
    Boris Johnson is playing such a dangerous game. The right wing press, whose journalists have private health care insurance, love it. But the NHS is close to on its knees now.

    Letting this rip may be beloved of the cull-set but for most of us who have a heart and soul we're now gambling with many lives.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897

    IMV there are two types of vaccine refusers:

    *) Those who, for whatever reason, choose not to get vaccinated but don't spread antivax propaganda.
    *) Those who actively are unvaccinated, and gleefully spread antivax propaganda.

    Both types are problematic, but the latter group are those who really need targeting. One of the latter group is a parent at my son's school, and he is often spreading antivax propaganda over the village's FB page. He seems to take a manic glee in the arguments it causes - although he doesn't seem to realise that many people don't see TikTok as a valid source of information. ;)

    Isn’t the way to deal with that, to get as many people as possible to flag his posts to Facebook moderators?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,653
    edited January 6
    Charles said:

    I'm probably the most pro vaccine person on this board, if not the world, but even I object to mandatory vaccinations.

    I am in favour of making the lives of the non medically exempt unvaccinated hell though.

    No benefits for them, ban them from public transport, cinemas, theatres, restaurants, gigs, leaving the country, supermarkets, owning cars etc.

    Heck, even deny them the vote.

    So they only have freedom if they do what you tell them to?
    No, it's like I cannot go to certain parts of the world without having certain vaccines, this is merely an extension of that.

    I am sick and tired of the unvaxxed twats clogging up the NHS and causing people with heart attacks and cancer not getting the treatment they need.

    They are destroying the economy and companies thanks to their selfishness.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 29,723

    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
    But you cannot reinterpret history without first studying it.

    Our current lot of aspirational iconoclasts do not want to study history; they want to use it as a quarry to pick out bits and pieces to justify the things they want to do, or have done.

    Those talking about 'slavery' want to ignore the black tribes who sold captives from other black tribes to the white man and the Islamic man in order to make money; they want to ignore black on black slavery in Africa (both still within contemporary memory);

    They want to forget about the Barbary Trade enslaving European people; they want to ignore the role of Empire in stopping slavery; and they (and perhaps we) want to ignore the wider historical compass, such as the role of slavery as foundational for the ancient societies we say we admire.

    They (and we) also need to think about the historic practice of selling-off of war captives.

    And they want to destroy history, without studying it in the round.

    That imo is why the unthinking anti-colonialist, BLM movements etc have to be questioned strongly enough to remove such deliberate biases.
    I would enthusiastically remove any statues to Barbary slavers on British High streets if you can direct me to them.
    A silly response to a serious point. It is not excusing slavery, or belittling its tragedy and the suffering it caused, to talk about the context of slavery contemporaneously around the world.

    If anything, ignoring the wider topic of slavery is excusing and belittling the suffering of millions of people, including down to the current day.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,245
    Carnyx said:

    Dr. Foxy, reinterpret?!

    Absolute balderdash.

    The role of historians is to accurately relate the past, as much as available evidence and the power of reason permits. It isn't to super-impose modern day political sensibilities, and that can not only pervert by the bastardry of revisionism what history is taught but make it outright inaccurate.

    In Justin Pollard's biography of Alfred he explains that Ivar the Boneless' odd nickname may be down to a mistranslation. In another book on Norse history (well, mythology, but the Sons of Ragnar cover both) it is written without any qualification or alternative that the nickname is because Ivar had cartilage rather than bones and was taken as proof of the shift away from battlefront prowess towards respect for intelligence in leadership.

    Vikings always approved of cunning, but the second approach cuts out a valuable, and more probable, explanation of the name.

    I recently read a Greek history in which the historian unashamedly referred to Marxism as being a good way to interpret the past. Needless to say, I did not agree.

    The whole Marxist Historian thing distorted a lot of history. I once had a bizarre conversation with a follower of that tribe - who could not accept that Henry VIII actually believed in what he did. In his (the historians view) the upper class *must* have been cynical, self-knowing atheists.
    Oh, quite. But the basic point si surely valid that economics and therefore class structure are worth inquiring into as one approach, as my history schoolmaster - no Marxist politician he - taught us.

    For instance, the Viking ship, which is a highly sophisticated vehicle. Was it solely dispersed farmer-craftsmen and -women who created it or does it hide a complex social and economic structure?
    J.A. Froude, who was no Marxist, managed to look into the economics of Tudor Britain.

    Using a failed economic model to look at the past doesn't seem that much of an improvement - especially when it becomes a dogma that blinds you to the fact that progress means an effort is required to access the mind states of the people who inhabited the past. Henry and Co. believed absolutely - and their religion was trivially worth dying for, to them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    Respectfully, that is nonsense. The people who have no confidence in Britain are the ones who think the country will collapse if we examine and criticise aspects of its past behaviour. The fact is that we achieved great wealth in large part via enthusiastic participation in a huge crime (getting rich by forcing others to work for free on pain of death is fairly parasitic I think you would agree).
    I don't think that the chief architects of that crime should continue to be honoured, especially as our future as a country rests on every one of its citizens, including millions of descendents of slaves, feeling like they have a stake in it. In my opinion it is the statue shaggers who lack any coherent vision of the future - they want us to worship the past without understanding it, and celebrate who we were not who we are or who we could become.
    My understanding was that although the slave trade made a number of cities and individuals wealthy the real money came from pillaging India of a thousand years of savings?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,151
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
    What was one of the interesting things about that discussion of the Colston statue last night was the argument that it was an active act of denial of history in order to titivate Colston's image ('whitewash' would be an unfortunate but perhaps apt expression). The late C19 erectors would certainly qualify as "people who continually do [history] down and seek to relitigate historic sins". As, for example, were the moral warriors of the C19 who tried to prevent Burns's statues on the grounds of his infidelity and immorality. Statue wars are nothing new, and anyone who tries to set history in aspic, or rather in marble and bronze, is in denial of history.
    Whilst I agree with most of that throwing a public statue into the harbour is still criminal damage and not the way to resolve these issues. The jury was wrong and the senior counsel representing the accused was dangerously irresponsible. The rule of law is important and is of particular importance in the protection of the vulnerable and exploited in our society.
    People have a right to decide who should be venerated in their home town. A slave trader isn't one of them.

    I also note the sheer hypocrisy of those getting agitated about this verdict who were all-too-happy to throw their support behind those who overthrew Ceaucescu or the protestors in Tiannamen Square.

    Libertarians love the overthrow of oppression until it comes to their turn.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,245
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
    Or have the dragoons billeted on you for free.
    Not every home has car parking. Where will the dragoons park their Covenanters?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 38,897
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
    They’ve also banned unvaccinated citizens from overseas travel, and I expect they’ll soon require vaccination for expat visa renewals, as Singapore has done already.

    The way I’d do it in the UK, is an NI surcharge of 5%, which raises a lot of money but is cheap to administer, and for arrivals in the country to either produce vaccination papers or have a week’s institutional quarantine at their own expense.

    I strongly dislike restrictions on eg. bars and sporting events, which inconvenience everyone including small businesses.
    It wouldn't be cheap to administer - updating the software to have the appropriate flag is a 7 month project (see the NI changes announced back in September).

    Which reminds me I must check if the new XML RTI files are out.
    Surely, status =1 is normal NI rate, status=0 is over 65 or under 16, and new status=2 has the 5% uplift? The first two of these exist already, but knowing government databases it’s probably a true/false flag.

    Do it with tax code then. Anyone unvaccinated has tax code 0, no personal allowance.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,350
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
    What was one of the interesting things about that discussion of the Colston statue last night was the argument that it was an active act of denial of history in order to titivate Colston's image ('whitewash' would be an unfortunate but perhaps apt expression). The late C19 erectors would certainly qualify as "people who continually do [history] down and seek to relitigate historic sins". As, for example, were the moral warriors of the C19 who tried to prevent Burns's statues on the grounds of his infidelity and immorality. Statue wars are nothing new, and anyone who tries to set history in aspic, or rather in marble and bronze, is in denial of history.
    Whilst I agree with most of that throwing a public statue into the harbour is still criminal damage and not the way to resolve these issues. The jury was wrong and the senior counsel representing the accused was dangerously irresponsible. The rule of law is important and is of particular importance in the protection of the vulnerable and exploited in our society.
    AIUI English juries are always right, corruption and similar events aside. By definition and by law.

    I don't think Mr Colston's avatar was 'vulnerable and exploited' in that social sense at least, and neither are the Merchant Venturers of Bristol. What actually puzzles me, now I think aboutt it some more, is how they even had a locus in the matter of the plaque to be placed on the statue - unfortunate as it worked so obviously to obstruct progress and prevent the head of political steam from not building up and exploding. What right did they have any more than any other Bristol organization or citizen, to block the actions of the elected mayor?

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,095
    HYUFD said:

    We were talking the other day about Don't Look Up and @Leon was saying that in his opinion the latter half of the film is spoiled by portraying Trump supporters as morons. Well according to the latest poll shows that nearly half of Americans don't think Biden won the election https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory

    I'm not saying they are stupid as was suggested. They are being gaslit on an epic scale by their media. But Biden DID win the election. Massively. Fairly. Demonstrably. That they still don't believe it is bonkers.

    So I think the film got it pitch perfect. Here is something undeniably true. Just look at it. No, its a fake, don't look at it.

    57% of Americans think a repeat attempted coup is likely to occur again. Perhaps the Canadian professor was right and the land of the Maple leaf needs to start preparing for refugees fleeing Gilead...

    Trump may actually win the election fair and square and even win the popular vote in 2024.

    Latest poll is Trump 44% Biden 38% with 8% of Biden 2020 voters now backing Trump

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joe-biden-administration-approval-ratings-and-hypothetical-voting-intention-18-december-2021/
    Note the latest poll, actually, which shows Biden 3-7 points ahead (depending on whether you take registered voters or likely voters):

    https://news.yahoo.com/poll-just-1-in-4-americans-want-biden-or-trump-to-run-again-in-2024-190141237.html

    But all the polls show that both Biden and Trump are unpopular, and three quarters of Americans don't want another match between them.

    By the way, the last line of the header has an unintentional double negative.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,553
    Mr. Z, the prism of ideology naturally distorts and colours any view of the past.

    I saw a video recently from a Youtube channel I previously liked describing the medieval peasant working habits (different for men and women) as being down to 'outdated gender stereotypes'. Sure... just ignore the biological reality.

    Mr. Carnyx, adding to history as new evidence emerges is not only fine, but necessary. Bastardising it to fit in with modern day political ideologies is quite the opposite.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 22,350

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    How is Italy going to enforce the mandate?

    Well the ultimate draconian approach would be no access to state run services, benefits, pensions etc without vaccination.

    I imagine what they will go with is making life just a pain in the arse if you aren't plus not being able to access leisure, bars, restaurants etc. The Italians are already very good at making life a pain in the arse if you need to apply for anything. No vaccination, you can't renew your passport, your driving licence, your car tax, without add loads of extra steps e.g. unvaccinated can only do it every 3rd Thursday of every 3rd month....

    Or they could go down the route of you get added tax / fine every year you don't.
    That first has been the situation in Italy for some time, ex that a recent negative test can stand for a vaccination. Presumably they just remove the ability to get a ‘Green Pass’ with a test.
    Was it Singapore where you could either get vaccinated or *pay* for a test every day? And the tests weren't cheap IIRC
    Something similar out here. If you work in the public sector or in a customer-facing job, you need a PCR test every 72 hours if you’re not vaccinated. $40 a pop, which is pretty much your whole disposable income if you work in a shop or hotel.
    Hmmm. History.

    So pass a law that you can either be vaccinated or have to use an NHS approved test per day. Cost £50.

    Fines under the Recusancy laws once made up a substantial proportion of state income...
    Or have the dragoons billeted on you for free.
    Not every home has car parking. Where will the dragoons park their Covenanters?
    On the front garden, obvs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,497
    .

    We were talking the other day about Don't Look Up and @Leon was saying that in his opinion the latter half of the film is spoiled by portraying Trump supporters as morons. Well according to the latest poll shows that nearly half of Americans don't think Biden won the election https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/05/america-biden-election-2020-poll-victory

    I'm not saying they are stupid as was suggested. They are being gaslit on an epic scale by their media. But Biden DID win the election. Massively. Fairly. Demonstrably. That they still don't believe it is bonkers.

    So I think the film got it pitch perfect. Here is something undeniably true. Just look at it. No, its a fake, don't look at it.

    57% of Americans think a repeat attempted coup is likely to occur again. Perhaps the Canadian professor was right and the land of the Maple leaf needs to start preparing for refugees fleeing Gilead...

    Time is running out for America. I see no sign of any acceptance of the urgency of the situation. Plenty of op-eds in NY Times warning about 2024, but nothing seems to happen.
    Plenty accept the urgency - most just have no idea what to do about it. And those with ideas don't agree on what to do.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    Respectfully, that is nonsense. The people who have no confidence in Britain are the ones who think the country will collapse if we examine and criticise aspects of its past behaviour. The fact is that we achieved great wealth in large part via enthusiastic participation in a huge crime (getting rich by forcing others to work for free on pain of death is fairly parasitic I think you would agree).
    I don't think that the chief architects of that crime should continue to be honoured, especially as our future as a country rests on every one of its citizens, including millions of descendents of slaves, feeling like they have a stake in it. In my opinion it is the statue shaggers who lack any coherent vision of the future - they want us to worship the past without understanding it, and celebrate who we were not who we are or who we could become.
    The issue is that the statute destroyers went outside the democratic process. It had been discussed. The local population (IIRC) was divided but wanted to retain it. There was a compromise of a detailed plaque although the wording was challenging to reach a consensus on.

    And then a group of people decided that the democratic process wasn’t important.

    (As an aside, the way they have left it damaged and on its side in a museum is an interesting and thoughtful response.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,497

    Mr. Z, the prism of ideology naturally distorts and colours any view of the past.

    I saw a video recently from a Youtube channel I previously liked describing the medieval peasant working habits (different for men and women) as being down to 'outdated gender stereotypes'. Sure... just ignore the biological reality.

    Mr. Carnyx, adding to history as new evidence emerges is not only fine, but necessary. Bastardising it to fit in with modern day political ideologies is quite the opposite.

    You'd prefer we leave the old political ideologies unchallenged - or do you operate under the assumption that previous efforts were purely objective ?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,937
    Heathener said:

    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Reflecting further on yesterdays discussions. The harsh and difficult reality is that both slavery and colonialism are features of human civilisation. The fact that a lot of people cannot come to terms with the fact that Britain both partook in and, eventually, abolished these institutions is really sad. It is actually laughable and pathetic; a failure of education.

    Britain is not perfect but remains one of the most progressive, least racist, countries in the world. Anyone who is truly concerned about racism or slavery need only to look to the developing world, where both are prevalent and expanding. Look no further than China.

    The abolition of slavery and colonialism are major achievements. But Britain is in a death spiral caused by a loss of confidence in itself and what it has achieved over its history. The people who continually do it down and seek to relitigate historic sins have no coherant vision of the future. They are just parasites destroying the host.

    No. The role of historians is to look at the past and reinterpret it. It always has been.

    The crimes of Empire are not centuries old, there are still survivors of British torture in Kenyan concentration camps alive for example.
    What was one of the interesting things about that discussion of the Colston statue last night was the argument that it was an active act of denial of history in order to titivate Colston's image ('whitewash' would be an unfortunate but perhaps apt expression). The late C19 erectors would certainly qualify as "people who continually do [history] down and seek to relitigate historic sins". As, for example, were the moral warriors of the C19 who tried to prevent Burns's statues on the grounds of his infidelity and immorality. Statue wars are nothing new, and anyone who tries to set history in aspic, or rather in marble and bronze, is in denial of history.
    Whilst I agree with most of that throwing a public statue into the harbour is still criminal damage and not the way to resolve these issues. The jury was wrong and the senior counsel representing the accused was dangerously irresponsible. The rule of law is important and is of particular importance in the protection of the vulnerable and exploited in our society.
    People have a right to decide who should be venerated in their home town. A slave trader isn't one of them.

    I also note the sheer hypocrisy of those getting agitated about this verdict who were all-too-happy to throw their support behind those who overthrew Ceaucescu or the protestors in Tiannamen Square.

    Libertarians love the overthrow of oppression until it comes to their turn.
    Ceaucescu was not a statue
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,245
    edited January 6

    IMV there are two types of vaccine refusers:

    *) Those who, for whatever reason, choose not to get vaccinated but don't spread antivax propaganda.
    *) Those who actively are unvaccinated, and gleefully spread antivax propaganda.

    Both types are problematic, but the latter group are those who really need targeting. One of the latter group is a parent at my son's school, and he is often spreading antivax propaganda over the village's FB page. He seems to take a manic glee in the arguments it causes - although he doesn't seem to realise that many people don't see TikTok as a valid source of information. ;)

    Interestingly, dumping PDFs of scientific papers on 2) type people's online discussions is considered "rude".

    They find facts distressing.

    So I carpet bomb WhatsApp from time to time. In the style of the late, great, Sir Arthur Harris.

This discussion has been closed.