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Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-920 -
Flightpath said:
The notion that the police have been prevented from doing theor job by political correctness is daft. Its corruption its indifference.taffys said:''Until we break these barriers, horrific crimes like those in Rotherham, Peterborough, Oxford and many other towns and cities in the UK will continue to be unpunished. ''
Wrong, in my view. Do you honestly think policemen sign up just to ignore crimes like this?
What we need to do is smash the political correctness agenda that has prevented the police from doing their job - ie treating all perpetrators and victims as equal under the law.
No sharia courts, no special dispensation, no exceptions, no excuses. No concessions to 'community relations'.
Just the pure and unbiased rule of British secular law. To protect everyone and be obeyed by everyone. Accept it or leave.
Where do sharia courts come in, any more than Beth Din.
It's not daft at all. If promotion required adhering to PC then ambitious plod will make sure PC is adhered to on their patch.
You only need to change the people at the top and then rivers of sh*te can flow downhill from there.
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Well said Dan Hodges...if he had said it on here last night people would have been leaving the site citing his disgusting racismSimonStClare said:Dan the man - The abuse experienced by the children of Rotherham is beyond belief. Sexual abuse. Physical abuse. Psychological abuse. It is all laid out in brutal detail in the report by Alexis Jay.
But one equally vicious aspect of the assaults on these children is identified in a less explicit way. And that is the manner in which the vast majority of the Rotherham victims were also racially abused.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100284156/rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-we-cannot-ignore-that-race-played-a-part-in-these-crimes/
"Others said to even touch on the race of the perpetrators, or the victims, was to itself pander to racism. When I first heard the reports, I sympathised with this argument.
I was wrong. There is no longer any debate about what happened in Rotherham. A major British town was turned into a rape camp. The overwhelming majority of the abusers were Asian men, primarily of Pakistani descent. And their victims were overwhelmingly white girls"0 -
Liverpool - just been announced on PM Radio4.taffys said:Contagion...
Twitter reporting that the Rotherham CEO between 2005 and 2010 is now CEO of another very, very, large Labour authority.0 -
@MrJones True, but the great urbanisation movement was over by 1885. Many, if not most of the young women involved in Stead's article were born and brought up in London itself. This wasn't about a gender imbalance - it was about paedophilia, human trafficking and the conscious decision of many in authority to turn a blind eye.
And it was not, of course, merely confined to London brothels. A further shocking case can be unearthed simply by Googling Lewis Harcourt, who was secretary of state for the colonies from 1910 to 1915, and both Herbert Asquith and F E Smith had the reputation of not being men to be trusted around teenage girls. Yet all of them died 'respected' members of the community and with peerages for services to the nation.
It is very depressing to reflect that we seem to have made no progress at all since those times.0 -
I can fret now, right?TheScreamingEagles said:
Fret not. Jos Buttler still to bat.ydoethur said:After that dismissal, there's as much chance of England winning this game as there is of Michael Gove being the next secretary general of the NUT.
I do hope England win, because MG heading up the NUTs would be hilarious...0 -
Dont see why "he would say that"TheScreamingEagles said:
Well he would say that wouldn't he.isam said:
Matthew Goodwin @GoodwinMJ · Aug 26TheScreamingEagles said:On topic.
Back UKIP to have zero seats next year.
Clearly they have Tory plants working for them.
Is the only explanation for The Kippers targeting Forest of Dean and Aylesbury.
It has to be the worst strategy since Wile E. Coyote came up with a plan to stop Road Runner.
Story this AM on #Ukip targets is intelligent guesswork based on existing (@Survation) polls. But the party has not yet decided its targets.
Sources have told Sky News there is a wider hit list of about 25 seats, but these 12 are likely to be most heavily targeted.
http://news.sky.com/story/1324855/ukip-poll-reveals-12-most-wanted-seats
Maybe you just got it wrong.. it could happen0 -
Desperate stuff timHugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-920 -
But, in this case, there was a very clear link between race and child sexual exploitation.Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
If we are to protect the public from crime, it is important to establish patterns of offending. In this case the pattern of offending was for men of Pakistani origin to rape and abuse girls who were white.
Given that the UK is almost 90% white, one would expect most child sex abusers overall to be white.
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It's not daft at all. If promotion required adhering to PC then ambitious plod will make sure PC is adhered to on their patch.
There was a Prison officer on the radio this morning explaining how he and his colleagues were pounded time and again by diversity training seminar after diversity training seminar.
The message was clear.0 -
Crimes relative to the percentage within the population is a more relevant figure than the overall number.Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
Perhaps you have that information?0 -
Hugh I don't know how to put this and apologies if it seems on the harsh side but if you are not a moron then you are doing a very good impression of one.Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
It is not the case that the perps were Asian; as you say disgusting criminals come in all shapes, races, nationalities and sizes. It is that a culture has arisen over the past dozen and more years of so called "political correctness" that might have inhibited an investigation by the authorities into this case (and others).
Could you not please be more determined and resolute in your decision to stay away from PB? That or up your game a bit.
Many thanks.0 -
Liverpool - just been announced on PM Radio4.
OMG. What will Liverpool Labour do now?
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I think you're feeding the troll there. I can't think of any other explanation for such a disingenuous and selective use of a quote.TheWatcher said:
Crimes relative to the percentage within the population is a more relevant figure than the overall number.Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
Perhaps you have that information?0 -
Interviewer doesn't buy Salmond's three Bs, bluff,bluster and bollocks. Cue tantrum.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=--68wMD2XbI
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IIRC, Sir Lewis Harcourt killed himself, as he faced arrest for offences against children.ydoethur said:@MrJones True, but the great urbanisation movement was over by 1885. Many, if not most of the young women involved in Stead's article were born and brought up in London itself. This wasn't about a gender imbalance - it was about paedophilia, human trafficking and the conscious decision of many in authority to turn a blind eye.
And it was not, of course, merely confined to London brothels. A further shocking case can be unearthed simply by Googling Lewis Harcourt, who was secretary of state for the colonies from 1910 to 1915, and both Herbert Asquith and F E Smith had the reputation of not being men to be trusted around teenage girls. Yet all of them died 'respected' members of the community and with peerages for services to the nation.
It is very depressing to reflect that we seem to have made no progress at all since those times.
Lord Melbourne's behaviour towards very young maids was pretty sordid, too.
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Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense
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I forget, is it still Labour party policy to make the whites angry, that might explain much.0
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Isn't it amazing that the police find it easier to prosecute the alleged perpetrators of 30 year-old crimes than those being committed today, under their noses? I blame "New Tricks".0
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Dear God another one who can't even flounce off properly.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense
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I had forgotten Melbourne (he was forgettable in so many ways...) Yes, you're right about Harcourt - but after his suicide, the whole matter was hushed up (and given that he had been, I believe I am right in saying, committing these offences more or less publicly for thirty years, the suggestion of arrest at such a stage seems rather belated).0
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I don't disagree with your desire to see proper rule of law in all parts of the UK - no excuses, no exceptions.taffys said:''Until we break these barriers, horrific crimes like those in Rotherham, Peterborough, Oxford and many other towns and cities in the UK will continue to be unpunished. ''
Wrong, in my view. Do you honestly think policemen sign up just to ignore crimes like this?
What we need to do is smash the political correctness agenda that has prevented the police from doing their job - ie treating all perpetrators and victims as equal under the law.
No sharia courts, no special dispensation, no exceptions, no excuses. No concessions to 'community relations'.
Just the pure and unbiased rule of British secular law. To protect everyone and be obeyed by everyone. Accept it or leave.
The lower ranks for the Police are not to blame for this - it is the senior ranks who set the agenda and set the limitations and allocate resources. They are the ones who have fallen in to the political correctness trap and made it difficult for investigations to go where they need.
I am sure there are plenty of officers who are frustrated at the restrictions placed on them.0 -
I think i'll leave this particular argument for another time as attempts by the PC crowd to deflect attention from crimes happening today and not 130 years ago will be coming thick and fast.ydoethur said:@MrJones True, but the great urbanisation movement was over by 1885. Many, if not most of the young women involved in Stead's article were born and brought up in London itself. This wasn't about a gender imbalance - it was about paedophilia, human trafficking and the conscious decision of many in authority to turn a blind eye.
And it was not, of course, merely confined to London brothels. A further shocking case can be unearthed simply by Googling Lewis Harcourt, who was secretary of state for the colonies from 1910 to 1915, and both Herbert Asquith and F E Smith had the reputation of not being men to be trusted around teenage girls. Yet all of them died 'respected' members of the community and with peerages for services to the nation.
It is very depressing to reflect that we seem to have made no progress at all since those times.
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Clearly for reasons unrelated to the EU, which is my point. For some reason, UKIP has morphed from what it was about three years ago - a party trying to get us to leave the EU - into something else, or perhaps more accurately into lots of other things (many of them incompatible with each other).Sean_F said:The approach you advocate for UKIP would help the Conservatives, but only at the margins. Most UKIP voters didn't vote Conservative in 2010. Most UKIP voters do self-identify as right of centre, however, so the Conservatives have to try to work out why they can't win right wing votes.
No wonder Dan Hannan is tearing out what is left of his hair!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283493/so-why-dont-you-join-ukip-hannan/
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Hugh said:
Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
Even if it was true that there was no cultural or ethnic element on the side of perpetrators there is still a direct link because the ethnicity of the perpetrators was why the people who covered it up, covered it up.
And now they can't cover it up any more they are trying to deflect attention instead.
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F1: I wonder. Could Monza (or just after) see an announcement of Alonso leaving Ferrari for McLaren?
Button's future is in doubt:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/289521740 -
The first move they need to make, and I agree that what was a fairly straightforward pressure-group-type anti-EU organisation has changed significantly, is to de-toxify their election literature. At present it relies too heavily on obnoxious subtle and not so subtle anti-immigration messages that are all too redolent of the NF & other odious organisations.Richard_Nabavi said:
Clearly for reasons unrelated to the EU, which is my point. For some reason, UKIP has morphed from what it was about three years ago - a party trying to get us to leave the EU - into something else, or perhaps more accurately into lots of other things (many of them incompatible with each other).Sean_F said:The approach you advocate for UKIP would help the Conservatives, but only at the margins. Most UKIP voters didn't vote Conservative in 2010. Most UKIP voters do self-identify as right of centre, however, so the Conservatives have to try to work out why they can't win right wing votes.
No wonder Dan Hannan is tearing out what is left of his hair!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283493/so-why-dont-you-join-ukip-hannan/0 -
Indeed - all of those convicted in the Oxford case came from one social grouping - and yet this was not highlighted.Sean_F said:
But, in this case, there was a very clear link between race and child sexual exploitation.Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
If we are to protect the public from crime, it is important to establish patterns of offending. In this case the pattern of offending was for men of Pakistani origin to rape and abuse girls who were white.
Given that the UK is almost 90% white, one would expect most child sex abusers overall to be white.
I do not believe it is directly related to their racial heritage - but very much the result of cultural conditioning. And that is a very hard thing to break.
I have a friend who teaches in one of the schools affected by the case. There are a number of male pupils who refuse to accept her authority in the classroom because she is a white female and so they have no respect for her.
It is not hard to see how this lack of respect can become more sinister.0 -
If you review my posts you will see that I criticised Israel a number of times and I don't recall saying the statement attributed to me about businesses. Perhaps you can point to the statement where I saidTOPPING said:
Dear God another one who can't even flounce off properly.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense
If you review my posts you will see that I criticised Israel a number of times and I don't recall saying the statement attributed to me about businesses. Perhaps you can point to the statement where I wrote what you claimed I wrote.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense0 -
''I am sure there are plenty of officers who are frustrated at the restrictions placed on them. ''
Absolutely. And are those senior officers acting in a vacuum? Nope. They want the favour of their higher ups. And so on.
This goes right to the top.0 -
I daresay it has. A party that's gone from winning 3% to winning 14% of the national vote is going to be very different.Richard_Nabavi said:
Clearly for reasons unrelated to the EU, which is my point. For some reason, UKIP has morphed from what it was about three years ago - a party trying to get us to leave the EU - into something else, or perhaps more accurately into lots of other things (many of them incompatible with each other).Sean_F said:The approach you advocate for UKIP would help the Conservatives, but only at the margins. Most UKIP voters didn't vote Conservative in 2010. Most UKIP voters do self-identify as right of centre, however, so the Conservatives have to try to work out why they can't win right wing votes.
No wonder Dan Hannan is tearing out what is left of his hair!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283493/so-why-dont-you-join-ukip-hannan/
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There are two unrelated things. They've tweaked their daily poll to reflect the surge in UKIP support since 2010, since they felt they were slightly underrating the party by weighting back to 2010 support (and slightly overrating the LibDems). The effect was to raise UKIP's rating by 1 point yesterday.MikeK said:Whats this I hear about YouGov claim to have new polling method?
There's also some sort of wisdom index-like project ("what do you think other people will think...?") which someone else mentioned - don't know (or care) about that, and it won't affect the daily poll.
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There's always Luca Badoer..........Morris_Dancer said:F1: I wonder. Could Monza (or just after) see an announcement of Alonso leaving Ferrari for McLaren?
Button's future is in doubt:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/289521740 -
"they felt they were slightly underrating the party by weighting back to 2010 support"NickPalmer said:
There are two unrelated things. They've tweaked their daily poll to reflect the surge in UKIP support since 2010, since they felt they were slightly underrating the party by weighting back to 2010 support (and slightly overrating the LibDems). The effect was to raise UKIP's rating by 1 point yesterday.MikeK said:Whats this I hear about YouGov claim to have new polling method?
There's also some sort of wisdom index-like project ("what do you think other people will think...?") which someone else mentioned - don't know (or care) about that, and it won't affect the daily poll.
Blimey I have been saying that for ages on here and all I got was "They were most accurate at the Euros"
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More to the point, a party that's gone from being within spitting distance of its best possible chance of achieving its overriding aim, to one which has no chance of achieving anything.Sean_F said:I daresay it has. A party that's gone from winning 3% to winning 14% of the national vote is going to be very different.
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Mr. B, poor Luca Badoer. He was the unlucky sod whose failure made the bigwigs realise forcing third drivers to stay out of the cockpit for years didn't necessarily hone their skills.
Bianchi and Hulkenberg would be interesting alternatives.0 -
"across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men" - proportionately or absolutely, and do not the findings of the report itself suggest that whatever data this factoid is based on are almost certainly entirely untrustworthy (because there is selective non-prosecution based on race, and the data presumably come from convictions). I'm not sure I have ever seen so much depressing dimness compressed into one sentence, no wonder it appealed to Maguire and to his re-tweeter.MrJones said:Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
Even if it was true that there was no cultural or ethnic element on the side of perpetrators there is still a direct link because the ethnicity of the perpetrators was why the people who covered it up, covered it up.
And now they can't cover it up any more they are trying to deflect attention instead.
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Do you just want PB to become a monologue with you as the star ?TOPPING said:
Dear God another one who can't even flounce off properly.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense
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Any UKIP target list that doesn't include Castle Point or Dudley North is probably not the real thing.0
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Re Harcourt's behaviour.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/scandals-in-the-house-1579987.html
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So it's true - ukip does want to destroy the Conservative Party. All hail Miliband!0
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Too late.Alanbrooke said:
Do you just want PB to become a monologue with you as the star ?TOPPING said:
Dear God another one who can't even flounce off properly.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense
Actually, I want PB to become (remain) a lively, argumentative, intelligent discussion forum.
I happen to believe that its continued greatest loss is tim who was informed, thoughtful, incisive, acute and left wing.
The current crop of left wingers don't hold a candle to him and that leaves a big hole in the left wing side of the argument. I sincerely hope he returns although I suspect while @SeanT is around and perhaps even if he wasn't, tim won't return.
What, however, I was referring to (and again I don't think my comment was particularly obtuse), was the fact that @Hugh and @Roger and @SouthamObserver all assured us they were leaving PB but only 1/3 of them have so far kept their word.0 -
You are a truly disgusting individual.Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
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Ishmael_X said:
"across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men" - proportionately or absolutely, and do not the findings of the report itself suggest that whatever data this factoid is based on are almost certainly entirely untrustworthy (because there is selective non-prosecution based on race, and the data presumably come from convictions). I'm not sure I have ever seen so much depressing dimness compressed into one sentence, no wonder it appealed to Maguire and to his re-tweeter.MrJones said:Hugh said:Are we still Frotherhaming then?
Kevin Maguire tweets
For all racists: "As has been stated many times before, there is no simple link between race and child sexual exploitation, and across the UK the greatest numbers of perpetrators of CSE are white men. The second largest category, according to the Children's Commissioner's report, are those from a minority ethnic background, particularly those recorded as 'Asian'." Rotherham report pgs 91-92
Even if it was true that there was no cultural or ethnic element on the side of perpetrators there is still a direct link because the ethnicity of the perpetrators was why the people who covered it up, covered it up.
And now they can't cover it up any more they are trying to deflect attention instead.
Yup, ignored crimes won't go on the stats.
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I have finally watched the interview with Shaun Wright. He surely can't survive. Not only was he in charge, but as the BBC journo (and much credit for carefully reading through info) catches him out on several occasions not being straight and trying to tell half-truths about his awareness of the issue during the interview.
In addition, the guy comes across as if he is so thick he struggles to remember to breath.
I am all for local democracy, people being given more power to elect people they are likely to know to make decisions. The problem comes when an area will vote for any donkey with the right coloured rosette and that the local / national party just their place men up for office (and that isn't limited to only one party).
How we address this (and no something like PR isn't the answer), I don't know.0 -
loads of bloggers threaten that and return, I don't think the PB lefties have a monopoly on it, it's a bit like Osborne threatening to eliminate the deficit, you take it with a pinch of salt.TOPPING said:
Too late.Alanbrooke said:
Do you just want PB to become a monologue with you as the star ?TOPPING said:
Dear God another one who can't even flounce off properly.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense
Actually, I want PB to become (remain) a lively, argumentative, intelligent discussion forum.
I happen to believe that its continued greatest loss is tim who was informed, thoughtful, incisive, acute and left wing.
The current crop of left wingers don't hold a candle to him and that leaves a big hole in the left wing side of the argument. I sincerely hope he returns although I suspect while @SeanT is around and perhaps even if he wasn't, tim won't return.
What, however, I was referring to (and again I don't think my comment was particularly obtuse), was the fact that @Hugh and @Roger and @SouthamObserver all assured us they were leaving PB but only 1/3 of them have so far kept their word.0 -
Just read another group of news articles on the Rotherham abuse. As much as the authorities that failed these kids need to be held to account, we can't let slip the focus on bringing the actual perpertrators of this abuse to justice.
These men utterly degraded children barely into puberty in every way. Girls were violated in every way, left bloody in fields, doused in petrol, passed round to strangers and old men, and lived in perpetual fear for their lives, and their families' lives. At least fifty men were involved and currently only five have served jail time, with none serving more than a decade. No doubt they got television and pool tables in prison. While these girls will be left psychologically damaged for the rest of their lives, these monsters will be walking the street as free men in their 30s and 40s. David Cameron, Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband and Nigel Farage can not claim to be standing for a fair society while allowing this travesty to continue. What are they going to do to make sure adequate justice is served?0 -
When have they been in spitting distance of achieving its overriding aim? If you're talking about the Tories' EU referendum, conveniently held after the next election, that's never been in spitting distance. The Tories aren't haven't been on course to win the next election for a long time. The options for UKIP are (a) a simple Tory loss to Labour and an EU referendum dropped in the next manifesto, or (b) a Tory loss with an anti-EU party scaring all three establishment parties, with an EU referendum committed to by at least the Tories, and possibly a eurosceptic next Tory leader.Richard_Nabavi said:
More to the point, a party that's gone from being within spitting distance of its best possible chance of achieving its overriding aim, to one which has no chance of achieving anything.Sean_F said:I daresay it has. A party that's gone from winning 3% to winning 14% of the national vote is going to be very different.
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Yet another person in the shape of Kevin Macguire informing us that most child abusers are white.
Really? 90% of the adult population is white — so I think anyone with a brain would expect most criminals of whatever type to be white. No need to point that out.0 -
Roger may be suffering false memory syndrome! I too remember no comment on business. I did remark that Israel is not only the safest country in the region to be Jewish, but also the safest to be an Atheist, Christian, Druze, Bahai and even Muslim. It is also the safest country to be a homosexual, political activist against the establishment, peace protester, scantily clad woman or drinker of alcohol. One would have thought it the only safe place to be a meejah luvvie...Cyclefree said:
If you review my posts you will see that I criticised Israel a number of times and I don't recall saying the statement attributed to me about businesses. Perhaps you can point to the statement where I saidTOPPING said:
Dear God another one who can't even flounce off properly.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense
If you review my posts you will see that I criticised Israel a number of times and I don't recall saying the statement attributed to me about businesses. Perhaps you can point to the statement where I wrote what you claimed I wrote.Roger said:Richard N.
"May I just say how impressed I have been in recent weeks by Cyclefree's posts on both the Rotherham horrors and on other issues"
Though I don't think Cyclefree is a bad poster I found a lot of his/her support for Israel during the Gaza bash just blind pro Israeli prejudice. He/she said for instance no Muslim country would permit businesses run and owned by non Muslims (in comparison with Israel) to exist in their countries. As someone who has worked in several if not most Muslim countries for non Muslim run and owned companies I can attest to this being utter nonsense0 -
Perhaps he doesn't know what "proportionately" means?AndyJS said:Yet another person in the shape of Kevin Macguire informing us that most child abusers are white.
Really? 90% of the adult population is white — so I think anyone with a brain would expect most criminals of whatever type to be white. No need to point that out.0 -
A nice circular argument. You're basically saying there won't be a referendum because the Tories won't get a majority, and the reason they won't get a majority is that UKIP supporters - who are easily sufficient in number to make the difference - have decided not to vote for one. I agree that that is a quite likely outcome.Socrates said:When have they been in spitting distance of achieving its overriding aim? If you're talking about the Tories' EU referendum, conveniently held after the next election, that's never been in spitting distance. The Tories aren't haven't been on course to win the next election for a long time. The options for UKIP are (a) a simple Tory loss to Labour and an EU referendum dropped in the next manifesto, or (b) a Tory loss with an anti-EU party scaring all three establishment parties, with an EU referendum committed to by at least the Tories, and possibly a eurosceptic next Tory leader.
In any case, UKIP make no secret of the fact that they've morphed into a party not particularly focused on the EU. Indeed they boast about it. As Dan Hannan says, of course they can campaign for whatever they like, but it's not what they said they were focused on two or three years ago.0 -
Kevin Macguire, hows does this hypocritical low life still get so many media gigs? Obviously moonlighting to set up a disgusting smear website appears not to be a problem for your media career these days.0
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Scottish Independence No Campaign Given Savage Mauling On Twitter, The Best Of #PatronisingBTLady
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/27/patronisingbtlady-scottish-independence_n_5721048.html?utm_hp_ref=tw0 -
middle aged bloke gets excited and pretends he understands women.Stuart_Dickson said:Scottish Independence No Campaign Given Savage Mauling On Twitter, The Best Of #PatronisingBTLady
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/27/patronisingbtlady-scottish-independence_n_5721048.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
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Roger and SO just said they were going off briefly, not sure about Hugh. But it's trolly of Topping to appear to want them to stay away. In my 10 years or so here, I don't think I've ever urged anyone to shut up and/or push off, though I've been tempted at times. A site for honest dialogue is precious, even if people are sometimes so far apart that they can't imagine that people really mean the things they say.Alanbrooke said:
loads of bloggers threaten that and return, I don't think the PB lefties have a monopoly on it, it's a bit like Osborne threatening to eliminate the deficit, you take it with a pinch of salt.TOPPING said:
What, however, I was referring to (and again I don't think my comment was particularly obtuse), was the fact that @Hugh and @Roger and @SouthamObserver all assured us they were leaving PB but only 1/3 of them have so far kept their word.
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How are these % probabilities calculated? They look wrong to me given the decimals of the UKIP odds that Ladbrokes have in their tables.0
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Go on, do tell!NickPalmer said:..though I've been tempted at times..
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spot on Nick.NickPalmer said:
Roger and SO just said they were going off briefly, not sure about Hugh. But it's trolly of Topping to appear to want them to stay away. In my 10 years or so here, I don't think I've ever urged anyone to shut up and/or push off, though I've been tempted at times. A site for honest dialogue is precious, even if people are sometimes so far apart that they can't imagine that people really mean the things they say.Alanbrooke said:
loads of bloggers threaten that and return, I don't think the PB lefties have a monopoly on it, it's a bit like Osborne threatening to eliminate the deficit, you take it with a pinch of salt.TOPPING said:
What, however, I was referring to (and again I don't think my comment was particularly obtuse), was the fact that @Hugh and @Roger and @SouthamObserver all assured us they were leaving PB but only 1/3 of them have so far kept their word.0 -
Any bloke, middle-aged or otherwise, that actually did understand women would be a multi, multi billionaire and, probably, very tired most of the time.Alanbrooke said:
middle aged bloke gets excited and pretends he understands women.Stuart_Dickson said:Scottish Independence No Campaign Given Savage Mauling On Twitter, The Best Of #PatronisingBTLady
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/27/patronisingbtlady-scottish-independence_n_5721048.html?utm_hp_ref=tw0 -
I'm not trolling you pudding. I am objecting to the "right that's it I'm off" tactic and then popping back up when something attracts their attention which is weak at best.NickPalmer said:
Roger and SO just said they were going off briefly, not sure about Hugh. But it's trolly of Topping to appear to want them to stay away. In my 10 years or so here, I don't think I've ever urged anyone to shut up and/or push off, though I've been tempted at times. A site for honest dialogue is precious, even if people are sometimes so far apart that they can't imagine that people really mean the things they say.Alanbrooke said:
loads of bloggers threaten that and return, I don't think the PB lefties have a monopoly on it, it's a bit like Osborne threatening to eliminate the deficit, you take it with a pinch of salt.TOPPING said:
What, however, I was referring to (and again I don't think my comment was particularly obtuse), was the fact that @Hugh and @Roger and @SouthamObserver all assured us they were leaving PB but only 1/3 of them have so far kept their word.
I would love them all to stay just don't like the device of threatening to leave only to not leave.
It diminishes them IMO.0 -
anyway Mr L now that you've crossed to the dark side do you get a free cameron dartboard to fill the winter evenings ?HurstLlama said:
Any bloke, middle-aged or otherwise, that actually did understand women would be a multi, multi billionaire and, probably, very tired most of the time.Alanbrooke said:
middle aged bloke gets excited and pretends he understands women.Stuart_Dickson said:Scottish Independence No Campaign Given Savage Mauling On Twitter, The Best Of #PatronisingBTLady
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/27/patronisingbtlady-scottish-independence_n_5721048.html?utm_hp_ref=tw0 -
I think any man who understood women would keep very quiet about it.HurstLlama said:
Any bloke, middle-aged or otherwise, that actually did understand women would be a multi, multi billionaire and, probably, very tired most of the time.Alanbrooke said:
middle aged bloke gets excited and pretends he understands women.Stuart_Dickson said:Scottish Independence No Campaign Given Savage Mauling On Twitter, The Best Of #PatronisingBTLady
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/27/patronisingbtlady-scottish-independence_n_5721048.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
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Raheem Kassam @RaheemJKassam 13m
Conservative MP Stands by Enoch Powell's Premonition for a Multicultural Britain >> http://bit.ly/1mRQWq70 -
It's not a circular argument at all because UKIP aren't one monolithic bloc. You switch back and forth between the central leadership and UKIP voters. In terms of the central leadership, it's not at all clear that if they folded the party and told everyone to vote for that nice Mr Cameron that the Tories would get all the UKIP vote. Many of the voters would vote for Labour or not at all, and the Tories would still leave. In terms of individual voters, you don't have power over anyone but your own vote - even if all you cared about was getting an EU referendum, you can't force all the UKIP voters to act together and vote blue with you.Richard_Nabavi said:
A nice circular argument. You're basically saying there won't be a referendum because the Tories won't get a majority, and the reason they won't get a majority is that UKIP supporters - who are easily sufficient in number to make the difference - have decided not to vote for one. I agree that that is a quite likely outcome.Socrates said:When have they been in spitting distance of achieving its overriding aim? If you're talking about the Tories' EU referendum, conveniently held after the next election, that's never been in spitting distance. The Tories aren't haven't been on course to win the next election for a long time. The options for UKIP are (a) a simple Tory loss to Labour and an EU referendum dropped in the next manifesto, or (b) a Tory loss with an anti-EU party scaring all three establishment parties, with an EU referendum committed to by at least the Tories, and possibly a eurosceptic next Tory leader.
In any case, UKIP make no secret of the fact that they've morphed into a party not particularly focused on the EU. Indeed they boast about it. As Dan Hannan says, of course they can campaign for whatever they like, but it's not what they said they were focused on two or three years ago.
Plus many UKIP voters do want to leave the EU as well as care about other issues. Immigration is a major concern that the Tories are clearly not going to do much about. They haven't come to getting net immigration down to 100,000. However, over the next decade the UKIP presence in parliament will force the entire political establishment to move in a eurosceptic and low immigration direction.
As for not letting Labour back in, there's clearly someone that could do something about: David Cameron could agree to Tory-UKIP pact. Farage would probably agree to it for a dozen or so seats. Then we would achieve your primary aim of preventing Miliband getting back in. Why won't he?0 -
Anyone got a straw to clutch at? They are running out fast..
Retweeted by Owen Jones
Kevin Maguire @Kevin_Maguire · 8h
Jimmy Savile, Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris, Max Clifford - all white men. Asian gangs in Rotherham not the only sexual predators0 -
Is this why the Rotherham Labour party wanted to suppress child abuse claims?
http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/96521/ex-mayor-barry-dodson-faces-child-sex-abuse-charge.aspx0 -
maybe you should tweet that to Kevin MaguireSocrates said:Is this why the Rotherham Labour party wanted to suppress child abuse claims?
http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/96521/ex-mayor-barry-dodson-faces-child-sex-abuse-charge.aspx0 -
They need to be careful not to be seen as useful idiots defending the indefensible. Perhaps silence would be advisable.isam said:Anyone got a straw to clutch at? They are running out fast..
Retweeted by Owen Jones
Kevin Maguire @Kevin_Maguire · 8h
Jimmy Savile, Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris, Max Clifford - all white men. Asian gangs in Rotherham not the only sexual predators
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What is it about lefties like Jones and Maguire? We arent children that need telling that just because a few Muslims abused kids, or just because a few celebrities did the same, that all people from those categories are child abusers.. it is they who divide everyone into blocks dependent on race, class etc, I prefer to use judgement
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He should be sacked.isam said:Raheem Kassam @RaheemJKassam 13m
Conservative MP Stands by Enoch Powell's Premonition for a Multicultural Britain >> http://bit.ly/1mRQWq7
It's totally unacceptable that he repeats the words of a man who spouted such vile views, even if those views have proven to be completely correct.0 -
Most of the people involved in covering it up were White guardianistas so it's very much in their interests that the full scale of of what happened is kept hidden.isam said:Anyone got a straw to clutch at? They are running out fast..
Retweeted by Owen Jones
Kevin Maguire @Kevin_Maguire · 8h
Jimmy Savile, Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris, Max Clifford - all white men. Asian gangs in Rotherham not the only sexual predators
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Because he's not stupid, because (as you yourself have just pointed out) Farage could not deliver on it, and because in any case what on earth would the pact be about? We're already going to get a referendum, if we get a Tory majority. So UKIP already have what they used to claim they wanted, in the days when they were coherent. Their current strategy is to refuse to take it, which doesn't leave much room for doing business together, does it?Socrates said:As for not letting Labour back in, there's clearly someone that could do something about: David Cameron could agree to Tory-UKIP pact. Farage would probably agree to it for a dozen or so seats. Then we would achieve your primary aim of preventing Miliband getting back in. Why won't he?
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PBers want to be further depressed?MrJones said:
I think i'll leave this particular argument for another time as attempts by the PC crowd to deflect attention from crimes happening today and not 130 years ago will be coming thick and fast.ydoethur said:@MrJones True, but the great urbanisation movement was over by 1885. Many, if not most of the young women involved in Stead's article were born and brought up in London itself. This wasn't about a gender imbalance - it was about paedophilia, human trafficking and the conscious decision of many in authority to turn a blind eye.
And it was not, of course, merely confined to London brothels. A further shocking case can be unearthed simply by Googling Lewis Harcourt, who was secretary of state for the colonies from 1910 to 1915, and both Herbert Asquith and F E Smith had the reputation of not being men to be trusted around teenage girls. Yet all of them died 'respected' members of the community and with peerages for services to the nation.
It is very depressing to reflect that we seem to have made no progress at all since those times.
Events in Rotherham took place this century, not 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's or whatever period you want "when things were different".
Both the BBC and Rotherham learnt nothing from the travails of the Catholic Church. You mean I went through all that and no-one learnt a thing about prevention? Christ.0 -
Owen Jones truly is a prat isn't he? The report explicitly says that race is a factor in both the targeting and in the suppression of the investigation, yet he goes and makes stupid comparisons. Rolf Harris & Co didn't all target kids of a different race, did they? The man is just a thick student politics idiot.0
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Shhhh... We're meant to be pretending that the failure to stop child sexual exploitation in Rotherham was entirely due to political correctness... Next thing you'll be quoting yesterday's report which sets out several other reasons...Socrates said:Is this why the Rotherham Labour party wanted to suppress child abuse claims?
http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/96521/ex-mayor-barry-dodson-faces-child-sex-abuse-charge.aspx0 -
Rotherham probably was a mecca for racists in the 1970s. Maybe some people in the council have been trying to make up for that with their more recent inactivities.0
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''It's totally unacceptable that he repeats the words of a man who spouted such vile views, even if those views have proven to be completely correct.''
I'm not sure if you meant it or not, but this sentence made me smile...
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Nah, Mr. Brooke, but then I have never needed one. My opinion of Cameron has never been high as my posts on here going back years will testify.Alanbrooke said:
anyway Mr L now that you've crossed to the dark side do you get a free cameron dartboard to fill the winter evenings ?HurstLlama said:
Any bloke, middle-aged or otherwise, that actually did understand women would be a multi, multi billionaire and, probably, very tired most of the time.Alanbrooke said:
middle aged bloke gets excited and pretends he understands women.Stuart_Dickson said:Scottish Independence No Campaign Given Savage Mauling On Twitter, The Best Of #PatronisingBTLady
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/27/patronisingbtlady-scottish-independence_n_5721048.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
One thing about being on the dark side I have noticed is that one gets to hear lots more about what people actually think. Some of it is pretty awful, as you would expect, but most is not much different than one can hear on here every day from posters on the left and right. Lots of people are fed up with having their concerns ignored and told they are wrong.
P.S. I signed up three new members this morning. The lady in the tobacconist who signed up last week and she has spoken to her friends. How much this will turn into votes I don't know but I am sure that there is a growing groundswell of opinion that is just not being picked up in the usual channels. I have great respect for Mr Navabi but his idea that UKIP supporters should just vote conservative is really missing the point of what is actually going on.0 -
Mr. Llama, you'll end up being a candidate if you're not careful. What is UKIP's policy on space cannons, genetically engineered fish, and the use of trebuchets and solar death rays in the justice system?0
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Rotherham probably was a mecca for racists in the 1970s.
An odd choice of metaphorical city there. Somebody will get offended.
Perhaps a 'Nuremburg for racists' would be better?0 -
Well, @isam, both the BBC and The Guardian have boxed themselves into a corner.isam said:What is it about lefties like Jones and Maguire? We arent children that need telling that just because a few Muslims abused kids, or just because a few celebrities did the same, that all people from those categories are child abusers.. it is they who divide everyone into blocks dependent on race, class etc, I prefer to use judgement
When they opportunistically called child abuse a Catholic problem and went to town over it, they have made a mighty stiff rod for their own backs and also cannot use the truism "it's a social problem, not a Catholic/BBC/Muslim problem.0 -
Mr. Dancer, I had a cup of tea with the Arundel and South Downs UKIP PPC a week or so ago. Chap by the name of Peter Grace, ex-RN submariner (lower deck) and top-hole bloke and I tried to nudge him towards the Morris Dancer Party's 2010 manifesto, don't think he was too convinced. Your idea that school uniform should be compulsory for all attractive young ladies aged between 16 and 24 went down very badly with his wife.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Llama, you'll end up being a candidate if you're not careful. What is UKIP's policy on space cannons, genetically engineered fish, and the use of trebuchets and solar death rays in the justice system?
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George Eaton neatly deconstructs the UKIP position:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/ukip-still-claim-labour-will-promise-eu-referendum-what-if-theyre-wrong0 -
On topic, the likeliest result in all those seats is that a big chunk of the LD vote goes back to Lab, while some of the Con vote goes to UKIP. The net result will be nil UKIP MPs, and several more Labour MPs.
I.e. vote silly, get Mili.0 -
French unemployment heading for 3.5 million.0
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IMO Farage's answer is obvious: you can't trust any of the other parties to keep promises on putative referenda.Richard_Nabavi said:George Eaton neatly deconstructs the UKIP position:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/ukip-still-claim-labour-will-promise-eu-referendum-what-if-theyre-wrong0 -
Mr. Llama, you've hideously misrepresented my party's policy. It's 16-28.0
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Yes, that's a good answer, if you're a cynical opportunist trying to find an excuse to torpedo what you used to claim was your primary goal. It's a bloody stupid answer if you actually want a referendum.AndyJS said:IMO Farage's answer is obvious: you can't trust any of the other parties to keep promises on putative referenda.
I don't think we need to offer very generous odds on which of the two applies, do we?0 -
Well i think it's been established that there are a number of different Ukip positions.Richard_Nabavi said:George Eaton neatly deconstructs the UKIP position:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/ukip-still-claim-labour-will-promise-eu-referendum-what-if-theyre-wrong
I'd imagine one of those positions is if a political party is prepared to ignore the rape, torture and forced prostitution of thousands of children then don't vote for them.
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A good article on France's problems and Hollande's response here:Alanbrooke said:French unemployment heading for 3.5 million.
http://blogs.wsj.com/simonnixon/2014/08/27/bienvenue-hollande-le-fort/
Few seriously believe the responsibility pact goes far enough. The planned €50 billion of spending cuts would simply reduce government spending as a proportion of gross domestic product by three percentage points by 2015 to the same 54% inherited by President Nicholas Sarkozy in 2007. What’s more, these cuts consist in large part of salary and budget freezes and procurement savings rather than a radical overhaul of the public administration. The government expects just 27,000 civil service jobs to go over three years. Now that he has released himself from the obligation to appease the left, will he allow reformers like Mr. Macron to pursue more radical policies?
I think the answer is almost certainly Non.
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My apologies Mr. Dancer. Don't think the correction is going to swing the good lady, but I will try the next time we meet.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Llama, you've hideously misrepresented my party's policy. It's 16-28.
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Can't decide what to watch at seven: the cricket highlights or Channel 4 News's response to Rotherham.0
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Currently they are working to put that party into power.MrJones said:I'd imagine one of those positions is if a political party is prepared to ignore the rape, torture and forced prostitution of thousands of children then don't vote for them.
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Mr. Llama, perhaps she'll be more approving of the proposed small fleet of Death Stars?0
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You are correct. Its so obvious its sad it needs to be repeated. The point you make about 'used to be primary goal' is a good one. People from Pakistan are nothing to do with the EU but Farage has picked up how easy it is to tap opinion polls by peddling a broad sweeping anti muslim line and being anti foreigner in general..Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, that's a good answer, if you're a cynical opportunist trying to find an excuse to torpedo what you used to claim was your primary goal. It's a bloody stupid answer if you actually want a referendum.AndyJS said:IMO Farage's answer is obvious: you can't trust any of the other parties to keep promises on putative referenda.
I don't think we need to offer very generous odds on which of the two applies, do we?0 -
France will just plough on until the whole place explodes, it's their history, they can't do gradual change I'm afraid.Richard_Nabavi said:
A good article on France's problems and Hollande's response here:Alanbrooke said:French unemployment heading for 3.5 million.
http://blogs.wsj.com/simonnixon/2014/08/27/bienvenue-hollande-le-fort/
Few seriously believe the responsibility pact goes far enough. The planned €50 billion of spending cuts would simply reduce government spending as a proportion of gross domestic product by three percentage points by 2015 to the same 54% inherited by President Nicholas Sarkozy in 2007. What’s more, these cuts consist in large part of salary and budget freezes and procurement savings rather than a radical overhaul of the public administration. The government expects just 27,000 civil service jobs to go over three years. Now that he has released himself from the obligation to appease the left, will he allow reformers like Mr. Macron to pursue more radical policies
I think the answer is almost certainly Non.0 -
"That party" looks like "those parties" to me.Richard_Nabavi said:
Currently they are working to put that party into power.MrJones said:I'd imagine one of those positions is if a political party is prepared to ignore the rape, torture and forced prostitution of thousands of children then don't vote for them.
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You unionists are not very bright, you think if you keep parroting something it will come true.MonikerDiCanio said:Interviewer doesn't buy Salmond's three Bs, bluff,bluster and bollocks. Cue tantrum.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=--68wMD2XbI0
