Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Latest voting split GE2021 CON voters – politicalbetting.com

123468

Comments

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,519
    edited November 25
    maaarsh said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, today is Elimination of Violence Against Women Day, I am told.

    I am not, on the whole, a fan of all these "Days".

    But it is worth remembering that, as of today, in Britain so far this year 127 women have been killed.

    328 days of the year. 127 women killed.

    1 woman killed every two and a half days.

    Most do not even make the local let alone national news. If this number were killed in one go, we'd never hear the end of it. But one here and there all over the country every few days, most in domestic settings, most by people known to them, overwhelmingly by men - well they just become routine, part of the daily background, unknown, forgotten and not cared enough about for anyone to do anything effective to understand why this happens and what can be done to change it.

    And this rate of killing is broadly the same year after year.

    Let's compare it to the 20 years the British Army spent in Afghanistan - a largely pointless undertaking, mostly remembered for the sad convoys through Wootten Bassett and people paying their respects.

    457 soldiers killed, 405 through enemy action. Ca. 23 a year.

    I do not diminish their sacrifice or the loss their loved ones suffer.

    But these women too have a name and people who loved them and miss them and this weary acceptance of their deaths really will not do.

    Still, we have a "Day", I suppose. Must we be content just with that?

    How many men have been killed in the same period? I am not trying to be crass. Every murder is horrific in its own way, whether it is a knife fight among gangs, or a murdered wife at home. How about an Elimination of Violence against people day instead?
    Should be every day, really, shouldn't it. But on this, although you're right, there's the point of the imbalance. Most murder victims are male, yes, but so are most murderers and the latter 'most' is the bigger one - ie if you calculate the m/f ratio of murder victims and murderers, the 2nd number will be much higher.
    But unless you think the male victims are also the male murders, on what basis does them having the same gender mean there is a transferrence of guilt, or cross gendler murders are 'worse'. Is it an underlying assumption that men should be able to defend themselves, whilst women are helpless, so any male victim is weak in a bad way?
    I was just explaining why the retort "but more men than women are murdered" isn't a good argument for there not being an epidemic of male violence against women and girls. I think you can highlight a category of violent crime without by inference saying that things which don't fall into the category are less serious. Eg if I post on the problem of fatal stabbings in London, I'm not by this saying I don't give a monkeys about gun crime in Manchester.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,162

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    You just don't want to admit you made a crass schoolboy error with your stats.

    Time to see a nice Deltic photo, I think.
    No error at all.

    45% of all voters voted Yes in 2014, only 40% of all voters back Yes now amongst all voters, a disaster for Sturgeon
    So 55% of all voters voted No in 2014, only 45% of all voters back No now amongst all voters, so disaster for Boris?
    No, because for HYUFD all "Don't Knows" in polls always get added to whichever side HYUFD agrees with. He's pretty consistent about this. Should save a bit of time otherwise wasted trying to argue with him.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,199

    Kitty Donaldson
    @kitty_donaldson
    ·
    31m
    NEW: The executive of the 1922 committee of backbench Tory MPs has been in en masse to see Prime Minister Boris Johnson

    "Sort your shit out Prime Minister or we'll sack you"
    As predicted they're going with the 'Boris must up his game' spin.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,727
    Caught a clip of Starmer on the One O'Clock News. He said something along the lines of "I don't know why those arrests couldn't have been made last week. The only thing that changed yesterday was that lots of people died."

    There are many arguments to be had about the migrant crossings, but Starmer is spot on with that comment.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    What is interesting is what happens when politicians/civil servants get tempted by the consumer oriented view of service provision.

    You may remember the "Make public services like John Lewis" thing that pops up from time to time.

    This falls over, when the horrifying reality of changing things to priorities the user of the service vs the producers of the service becomes apparent.

    Imagine if the benefits system ran like... say Revolut?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Leon, it could be miles worse. Dull ache rather than stabbing pain, and I can sleep as well (or badly) as normal.

    Decided to maintain the walking/yoga that helped to ease things as part of a routine. Working so far.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 372

    Is the 1922 Committee still the old guard who were generally pro-Paterson, pro-second jobs?

    “Boris old boy. Spot of bother. We have received 70 letters, from that new northern lot mainly, but we suspect we will lose about fifty letters in this weekends storm (Arwen*) and no one will ever know. Goodness. Fine bottle of Sherry this Bojo).

    *Storm Arwen would be me. The number of times men have come up to us saying I look like Liv Tyler. I do quite a bit, but they don’t know who Liv Tyler is they just say Elf Girl from the Hobbit. So we put them right and then tell them to roll away.

    Think of me when you have a stormy weekend 😝
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    TOPPING said:

    pigeon said:

    Aslan said:

    The idea that all skills shortages can be filled by increasing wages is bonkers. Some can be filled that way, sure. But borders get in the way. Otherwise the richest cities on Earth would never have any skills shortages. The truth is there are a finite amount of chefs who have permits to work in London and that cohort has been massively reduced by restrictions on immigration (eg Brexit). That’s a simple fact. We need people.

    As countries become more advanced and more productive, lower productivity jobs get priced out of the market. That's a good thing.

    If the restaurant business in question brings a sufficiently high value to its customers, then it can put up prices and pay its chefs more. If it can't do that then it's because other businesses are producing more value. When it goes out of business then average productivity will be higher.

    People have been bemoaning low productivity UK for decades. Now we are actually leaving the low productivity stuff behind, people want immigration policy to bail them out.
    There's a lot of truth in this. People are used to obtaining cheap products and services that are often made cheap because businesses have access to a large pool of desperate staff willing to labour under crap conditions for bugger all money.

    We have been here before in history. When the Black Death killed off half the peasantry, the other half suddenly found that they were in a workers' market. Lords who were willing to pay premium wages to get their land worked continued to get it worked. Those who weren't found all their peasants ran away to work for lords with a better grasp of the new economic realities, and their estates went fallow. The feudal system collapsed. Nobody apart from scalper lords thought the collapse of feudalism to be a bad thing.

    What will now happen is that businesses that are desperate for staff will have to work out ways to manage with fewer staff; or they'll have to pay their staff more, and find efficiencies elsewhere so that the bill doesn't get passed on to the customer; or they'll need to pay their staff more, pass the cost onto the customer, and provide a good enough service that the customer is willing to pay a premium; or they'll have to close.

    If you want people to be paid decent wages then a period of wage inflation can only be a good thing. The fact that there is a certain strand of supposedly left-leaning opinion (particularly amongst wealthy metropolitans) that is utterly desperate to reopen the borders to limitless migratory flows therefore exposes the hollowness of their ideological posturing. They don't care about low paid workers at all - they just want to indulge in internationalist virtue signalling, and to keep their cheap lattes, cheap cleaners, cheap nannies and cheap plumbers.

    We all like cheap, but if it is to continue in future it must be achieved through lean working practices and automation, not through paying people naff all and flogging them to death. If that means that some concerns that previously relied on chefs working 12-hour shifts for the minimum wage find that said chefs are leaving, and nobody else is willing to labour under such rotten conditions, then hurrah.

    One way to ensure better working conditions and higher levels of pay is to make it easier for workers to organise collectively and to withdraw their labour. Are you up for that?

    No.

    Let people do it individually. If employers are providing a bad wage then workers can withdraw their labour individually by going to a new employer.

    The problem with striking etc is its trying to compel a better wage even from those who are paying good wages already and then putting picket lines up trying to stop others from taking the jobs.

    They can only go to a new employer paying better wages if one exists and they have the necessary qualifications. It's funny, isn't it, that the most unionised countries tend to be the ones that have the best pay and working conditions?

    In a free market if there's more demand for people than there is supply then employers paying better wages will exist because if they don't pay better wages then they don't fill the vacancies as we're seeing at the moment.

    And no, its not funny, its often sad. The most unionised countries tend to be the ones that have the most unemployment as wages for those who are employed rise above the market rate and thus others are left on the slagheap unemployable as a result. Too high a minimum wage can have the same impact especially for young people. This is something we're not seeing in this country.

    Of course if the least productive people are unemployed then that will automatically raise average wages as they're no longer deflated by the least productive. But that doesn't mean society is better off with millions unemployed. The unemployed don't count in average wage figures when really if you want to compare like for like you should include the unemployed in your maths with a wage of zero.

    Factor in unemployment and no, what you're claiming is not always true.

    You don't believe in free markets, Phil.

    I'm not a total anarchist, I do believe there have to be some minimal regulations.

    But yes, I do. The free market is working at the minute as we have a supply and demand of labour and if people want more labour they can pay more for it. That is the market working as intended.
    We are artificially restricting supply. Hence prices are likely to go up. Whether that is good or bad.

    Like @HYUFD and his mix and match monarchism, a free marketeer you are not.
    People are mix and match, not consistent ideological automatons. It's entirely right people will be qualified even in some very firm views, without making a broad label characterisation unreasonable.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,856
    tlg86 said:

    Caught a clip of Starmer on the One O'Clock News. He said something along the lines of "I don't know why those arrests couldn't have been made last week. The only thing that changed yesterday was that lots of people died."

    There are many arguments to be had about the migrant crossings, but Starmer is spot on with that comment.

    100% true but as I pointed out earlier until yesterday's tragedy, the French were happy to turn a blind eye (and will do so again when enough time has past).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,992
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    F1: suggestion Bottas might have yet another engine in Saudi Arabia:
    https://twitter.com/f1talks/status/1463844366926200835

    Ooh, a two-race engine. That’s going to be even faster than Lewis’s three-race engine.

    It was clear earlier in the year, that Mercedes were doing experiments with Valtteri and his many engines. This is going to be the culmination of their work, producing engines that are physically identical (they are homologated designs) but with wildly different power outputs controlled by software.
    They still have the 'party mode' (as do the other teams, though Honda don't believe they can get so much benefit), and will have calculated how close they can get to it.
    The difference is that under current rules, if they use it, they have do do so throughout the entire race as well, which tends to do bad things to engine life - and the power output drops off quite quickly as the engine wears.

    And of course engines are outside the budget cap. Though customer teams would still have to pay, which I guess is not worth their while.
    Yes, the Mercedes ICE is engineered differently to the Honda engine - it produces more power initially, but quickly loses power with mileage. The original target was three per season, which is roughly 6,000km per unit. A two-race engine is going to do around 1200km, and the three-race engine 1800km. They’re going to very much be in “party mode”.

    It’s ironic that the drop in the reliablility penalties was put in place to try and help Honda, as was the ban on the qualifying engine modes, but now Mercedes are using both of these against Honda, and I’m expecting LH to walk the last two races, as he has with the previous two.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470
  • Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    ping said:

    Jeez. £1.7bn of taxpayers money to keep bulb running.

    Outrageous.

    The solution is simple. Ditch the cap to keep these companies solvent. If the govt is going to spend money, it should be on protecting the poorest via UC, not directly subsidising energy bills.

    I think that Bulb has £1.7m customers, so that is about £1k per customer.
    £1.7bn is the max cash requirement. The cost to the taxpayer will be far less.
    Cost at the moment is expected to be 40% of that (I posted the figure yesterday) - so it's currently £700m.

    And remember that the existing companies are having to sub that £400 from their reserves so don't expect prices to fall at any point in the next few years (there is a lot of debt to be made up).

    Even that £400 both does depend on how winter plays out and how the market changes - you best bet long term is to get as energy efficient as possible.
    In future the regulator needs to ensure energy firms have sufficient capital to match their number of customers and hedging risks. It is crazy to allow limited companies a hugely leveraged free bet on energy prices subsidised by taxpayer (and industry competitor) implicit backstop guarantees.
    What is the point? Get rid. Nationalise the lot.
    Do you not remember British Telecom, when it would take them three months to install a line, it would likely end up being a DACS line, and you’d better be damn grateful that they were kind enough to provide you service in the first place?

    The solution is a number of companies, competing to provide service over a single infrastructure. But regulators need to ensure that these companies are sufficiently capitalised and with guaranteed supply at the prices they are selling, and not simply marketing operations placing a one way bet playing the energy markets.
    So how is Openreach any better? We replaced a public monopoly with a private monopoly. The reason why the government(s) are having to intervene with things like fibre broadband is because Openreach simply won't do it.

    My bit of Teesside was a prime example. Openreach surveyed in 2004 and began FTTC installs. My housing estate started construction that autumn eventually growing to 1,300 homes. No fibre broadband. When you ask why its due to not enough demand shown on the survey. More incredulous prodding and I had it in writing that as the hundreds of homes of demand do not exist on their rollout map there will be no FTTC. Despite Openreach having installed phonelines to them.

    Eventually Virgin media decided to install FTTP. Except that they only did the main streets and not the various 3 / 4 house cul-de-sacs. If you live on one of those you got missed, with no appeal and no option other than Starlink if you want faster than 2MBps.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,263
    Talking about one's jab reaction certainly beats the weather.

    Now a modest proposal: why not replace our anti-vaxers, one for one, by vaccinated immigrants who, as immigrants usually do, will contribute to the nation ?

    I know, I know. But we all have a bit of fascism in us.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,598
    Cyclefree said:



    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, today is Elimination of Violence Against Women Day, I am told.

    I am not, on the whole, a fan of all these "Days".

    But it is worth remembering that, as of today, in Britain so far this year 127 women have been killed.

    328 days of the year. 127 women killed.

    1 woman killed every two and a half days.

    Most do not even make the local let alone national news. If this number were killed in one go, we'd never hear the end of it. But one here and there all over the country every few days, most in domestic settings, most by people known to them, overwhelmingly by men - well they just become routine, part of the daily background, unknown, forgotten and not cared enough about for anyone to do anything effective to understand why this happens and what can be done to change it.

    And this rate of killing is broadly the same year after year.

    Let's compare it to the 20 years the British Army spent in Afghanistan - a largely pointless undertaking, mostly remembered for the sad convoys through Wootten Bassett and people paying their respects.

    457 soldiers killed, 405 through enemy action. Ca. 23 a year.

    I do not diminish their sacrifice or the loss their loved ones suffer.

    But these women too have a name and people who loved them and miss them and this weary acceptance of their deaths really will not do.

    Still, we have a "Day", I suppose. Must we be content just with that?

    How many men have been killed in the same period? I am not trying to be crass. Every murder is horrific in its own way, whether it is a knife fight among gangs, or a murdered wife at home. How about an Elimination of Violence against people day instead?
    @DavidL made the same point.

    All killings are awful. We largely ignore killings unless, for some reason, they make the news. See the killings of teenage - largely black boys - in cities, for instance.

    But if you and @DavidL want to focus on the elimination of the violence, then we need to focus on those doing the violence. And they are overwhelmingly men. It is men killing women. It is men killing other men.

    Why is that? And what are men going to do about it?

    Rather than have "Days" or men making making obvious but trite points, perhaps they might ask themselves this.

    Or are we just going to get the usual "well it's all very complicated" and "it always happens" and "it's not all men" etc.

    Not getting at you or @DavidL personally. But these killings are done by people, overwhelmingly male people. That would be a good starting point if we want to try and eliminate it.
    I don't disagree. It is also overwhelmingly a small minority of men that do this. I've never had a fight with anyone (closest I have come was being punched while playing rugby). I was well brought up. Too often the problem men have had very poor starts in life. The cosy middle class up bringing of love and cuddles from a supporting family just isn't there. How do we fix that? How do we also stop some people opting for crime as a life style to get what they want if they are not educated enough or able enough to do it through work? Minimum wage jobs are not that appealing when someone offers you a quicker way to get money.

    I am increasingly conscious of how women, especially lone women, see the world. Last night I was out for a run, and came up behind a young women on a stretch of road with only one pavement. I genuinely thought of crossing to the other side, that had no pavement, but the risk of being on the road put me off. In the end I passed as wide as i could, but wanted another way to inform her that I wasn't about to attack her, and I was panting heavily because I'm unfit. I want to do the right thing. But me doing the right thing won't stop some of the shits out there doing the wrong thing, and for them, I don't know the answer.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Sandpit, actually writing something on whether Hamilton should be the favourite. Mostly done, hoping to post it today.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,992

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    What is interesting is what happens when politicians/civil servants get tempted by the consumer oriented view of service provision.

    You may remember the "Make public services like John Lewis" thing that pops up from time to time.

    This falls over, when the horrifying reality of changing things to priorities the user of the service vs the producers of the service becomes apparent.

    Imagine if the benefits system ran like... say Revolut?
    But instead we get…

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/24/blob-taking-back-control-destroying-boris-johnsons-premiership/

    The growth of the welfare state spawned a new bureaucratic class that reproduces itself and conflates its own interests with those of the country. This elite is far less impressive, open-minded, knowledgeable or efficient than its private sector counterpart because it lacks the same disciplining and feedback mechanisms. Bad decisions don’t lead to bankruptcy, but to promotion. Risk-aversion is rewarded, and thinking differently penalised. Entrepreneurship is anathema. There is no real management, no true accountability. In time, the Civil Service merged with the elites in academia, the charity industry, the cultural institutions and now even parts of the private sector to form a super-class, a new, enlarged Brahmin Left, and has now adopted, as an ethical self-justification, the woke ideology.

    “Johnson now has a choice: he can go back to war with this elite class, which will require rebuilding No 10 and taking extremely tough decisions; or he can allow the bureaucrats slowly to drain the life out of his government. If he chooses the latter, not only will it be a betrayal of the very voters who gave him his majority, he will have handed power over Britain back to the Blob.”
  • Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    Why are the woke trying to cancel that interesting piece of artwork?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,598
    Leon said:

    Ugh, now I've got a weirdly stiff and aching back. What's that about?

    Most peculiar.

    PB-ers may want to put me on mute coz I'm gonna be whining all day, I suspect

    God - is there a 'mute' switch that can screen out certain posters? Can there be such a thing?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,871
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty bloody ropey after my Moderna booster jab. Seriously sore and frozen arm, general malaise and fatigue. Much worse than AZ, which caused a tiny bit of tenderness in the shoulder...

    That's a sign that you've probably previously had COVID.
    I am now near-certain that I did have Covid way back in January 2020, caught in Thailand. That's what Public Health England thought, that's why they sent me to be tested in UCLH, tho a SNAFU prevented any actual test

    It would also explain why I haven't caught Covid since, despite taking many risks in recent months: pubs, bars, restaurants, planes, the works
    "That's a sign that you've probably previously had COVID."

    Is it? First I've heard of that idea.
    Yes it has been punted before, by proper scientists, tho there are also other explanations, ofc
    Hey, my Chemistry degree still just about qualifies me as a "proper scientist" just not a practicing one.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,743
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Ugh, now I've got a weirdly stiff and aching back. What's that about?

    Your immune response chucks out chemicals (interleukins and cytokines) which cause muscle pain.
    A paracetamol would probably help.
    Ibuprofen is bett
    tlg86 said:

    Caught a clip of Starmer on the One O'Clock News. He said something along the lines of "I don't know why those arrests couldn't have been made last week. The only thing that changed yesterday was that lots of people died."

    There are many arguments to be had about the migrant crossings, but Starmer is spot on with that comment.

    Not if the arrests are for manslaughter
  • Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,097
    edited November 25
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    F1: suggestion Bottas might have yet another engine in Saudi Arabia:
    https://twitter.com/f1talks/status/1463844366926200835

    Ooh, a two-race engine. That’s going to be even faster than Lewis’s three-race engine.

    It was clear earlier in the year, that Mercedes were doing experiments with Valtteri and his many engines. This is going to be the culmination of their work, producing engines that are physically identical (they are homologated designs) but with wildly different power outputs controlled by software.
    They still have the 'party mode' (as do the other teams, though Honda don't believe they can get so much benefit), and will have calculated how close they can get to it.
    The difference is that under current rules, if they use it, they have do do so throughout the entire race as well, which tends to do bad things to engine life - and the power output drops off quite quickly as the engine wears.

    And of course engines are outside the budget cap. Though customer teams would still have to pay, which I guess is not worth their while.
    Yes, the Mercedes ICE is engineered differently to the Honda engine - it produces more power initially, but quickly loses power with mileage. The original target was three per season, which is roughly 6,000km per unit. A two-race engine is going to do around 1200km, and the three-race engine 1800km. They’re going to very much be in “party mode”.

    It’s ironic that the drop in the reliablility penalties was put in place to try and help Honda, as was the ban on the qualifying engine modes, but now Mercedes are using both of these against Honda, and I’m expecting LH to walk the last two races, as he has with the previous two.
    He has first to stay out of the wall in Saudi.
    Particularly at the first corner. :smile:

    Also at least one safety car looks very likely. So the luck of the draw on pitstops will also come into it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,199

    Leon said:

    Ugh, now I've got a weirdly stiff and aching back. What's that about?

    Most peculiar.

    PB-ers may want to put me on mute coz I'm gonna be whining all day, I suspect

    God - is there a 'mute' switch that can screen out certain posters? Can there be such a thing?
    Older posters may remember Edmund from Tokyo's widget.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,611

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    Why are the woke trying to cancel that interesting piece of artwork?
    Like Mrs Whitehouse was woke with her blasphemy prosecutions?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,992

    Mr. Sandpit, actually writing something on whether Hamilton should be the favourite. Mostly done, hoping to post it today.

    He’s an idea of what a motorsport forum has to say on the subject:
    https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=228&t=1961489

    Their consensus is that Perez will outscore Bottas, but I disagree with that. In my mind LH is 2/3 and Mercedes 5/11
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    I think we should cancel the people cancelling the people cancelling people.......

    Fuckit. Pub.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,866
    I think the main reason the UK is so attractive to migrants is probably the fact we don't have ID cards. And most people don't want to introduce them, so that pull factor isn't going to change.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,727
    edited November 25

    tlg86 said:

    Caught a clip of Starmer on the One O'Clock News. He said something along the lines of "I don't know why those arrests couldn't have been made last week. The only thing that changed yesterday was that lots of people died."

    There are many arguments to be had about the migrant crossings, but Starmer is spot on with that comment.

    Not if the arrests are for manslaughter
    I guess our police could say the same as to why they didn't arrest Wayne Couzens days before he kidnapped, raped and brutally murdered Sarah Everard.
  • Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    We all know that cancellation culture is the hallmark of the "woke" apparently.

    So clearly those trying to cancel it are the "woke".

    To cancel interesting and thought-provoking artwork because it offends you is terrible and I can see why this cancellation is bothering Leon.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,598
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty bloody ropey after my Moderna booster jab. Seriously sore and frozen arm, general malaise and fatigue. Much worse than AZ, which caused a tiny bit of tenderness in the shoulder...

    That's a sign that you've probably previously had COVID.
    I am now near-certain that I did have Covid way back in January 2020, caught in Thailand. That's what Public Health England thought, that's why they sent me to be tested in UCLH, tho a SNAFU prevented any actual test

    It would also explain why I haven't caught Covid since, despite taking many risks in recent months: pubs, bars, restaurants, planes, the works
    "That's a sign that you've probably previously had COVID."

    Is it? First I've heard of that idea.
    Yes it has been punted before, by proper scientists, tho there are also other explanations, ofc
    Hey, my Chemistry degree still just about qualifies me as a "proper scientist" just not a practicing one.
    You never lose the scientific training.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,097

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Ugh, now I've got a weirdly stiff and aching back. What's that about?

    Your immune response chucks out chemicals (interleukins and cytokines) which cause muscle pain.
    A paracetamol would probably help.
    Ibuprofen is better...
    I can't take it.
  • Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    F1: suggestion Bottas might have yet another engine in Saudi Arabia:
    https://twitter.com/f1talks/status/1463844366926200835

    Ooh, a two-race engine. That’s going to be even faster than Lewis’s three-race engine.

    It was clear earlier in the year, that Mercedes were doing experiments with Valtteri and his many engines. This is going to be the culmination of their work, producing engines that are physically identical (they are homologated designs) but with wildly different power outputs controlled by software.
    They still have the 'party mode' (as do the other teams, though Honda don't believe they can get so much benefit), and will have calculated how close they can get to it.
    The difference is that under current rules, if they use it, they have do do so throughout the entire race as well, which tends to do bad things to engine life - and the power output drops off quite quickly as the engine wears.

    And of course engines are outside the budget cap. Though customer teams would still have to pay, which I guess is not worth their while.
    Yes, the Mercedes ICE is engineered differently to the Honda engine - it produces more power initially, but quickly loses power with mileage. The original target was three per season, which is roughly 6,000km per unit. A two-race engine is going to do around 1200km, and the three-race engine 1800km. They’re going to very much be in “party mode”.

    It’s ironic that the drop in the reliablility penalties was put in place to try and help Honda, as was the ban on the qualifying engine modes, but now Mercedes are using both of these against Honda, and I’m expecting LH to walk the last two races, as he has with the previous two.
    Yes, though with Arse still being largely useless I hope that Red Bull can snatch the constructors championship. I know that Hamilton is a divisive figure because of his outside interests. But you cannot pull him apart on his driving - he is a phenomenon. Nor can we dismiss it as "just the car" - as Bottarse so regularly demonstrates.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Caught a clip of Starmer on the One O'Clock News. He said something along the lines of "I don't know why those arrests couldn't have been made last week. The only thing that changed yesterday was that lots of people died."

    There are many arguments to be had about the migrant crossings, but Starmer is spot on with that comment.

    Not if the arrests are for manslaughter
    I guess our police could say the same as to why they didn't arrest Wayne Couzens days before he kidnapped, raped and brutally murdered Sarah Everard.
    That's not fair.

    They had all attended their Awareness and Diversity courses.

    And Lessons Will be Learned......
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Sandpit, probably going to be afk for a bit now, but I don't want to spoil the very exciting conclusion to an opinion piece. I may check that motorsport link a bit later.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    Andy_JS said:

    I think the main reason the UK is so attractive to migrants is probably the fact we don't have ID cards. And most people don't want to introduce them, so that pull factor isn't going to change.

    Also, the English language: a massive draw. We are paying a price for the global supremacy of our glorious mother tongue
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    So you're on the side of those in favour of cancellations?

    Cancellation culture is good now?

    I am shocked! Shocked! At this revelation. 😱
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    If paintings of black people as Jesus are woke, then woke just got a lot less scary.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,992

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    I think we should cancel the people cancelling the people cancelling people.......

    Fuckit. Pub.
    Cheers! For some of us, the weekend started an hour ago 🍻
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,097
    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, actually writing something on whether Hamilton should be the favourite. Mostly done, hoping to post it today.

    He’s an idea of what a motorsport forum has to say on the subject:
    https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=228&t=1961489

    Their consensus is that Perez will outscore Bottas, but I disagree with that. In my mind LH is 2/3 and Mercedes 5/11
    The simulator guys reckon the corners will not reward late braking (which tends to be Max's style). A Mercedes front row looks possible, with the Dutchman well positioned for an absurd gamble at the first corner.
  • This is what I call worryingly woke

    @washingtonpost
    Here's what we know so far on the sequence of events that led to the Waukesha tragedy caused by a SUV.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    So you're on the side of those in favour of cancellations?

    Cancellation culture is good now?

    I am shocked! Shocked! At this revelation. 😱
    It is genuinely fascinating how Woke is infesting the Christian church. And again it is an uncanny echo of Christianity's own genesis

    When the early Christians wished to convert some heathen tribe, they often kept the pagan shrines intact, and simply imposed their own symbols and buildings thereupon, thus absorbing the spiritual power of the Old Faith into the New. That's why so many churches in the UK and beyond are built on pagan sites, which can sometimes still be recognised - yew trees are a telling presence. The same happened with Gods - Isis nursing Horus became Mother Mary nursing the baby Jesus.

    See here, the exact same iconography


    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545961


    Turning George Floyd into Jesus is Wokeness doing to Christianity what Christianity did to Zeus, Woden, Osiris and Valhalla. A pleasing symmetry, but a menacing development, which completely vindicates the prediction made in that superb Spectator essay by an ex PB-er
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    This is what I call worryingly woke

    @washingtonpost
    Here's what we know so far on the sequence of events that led to the Waukesha tragedy caused by a SUV.

    That cannot be a serious headline. Can it??

    Say it ain't so
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,520
    Andy_JS said:

    I think the main reason the UK is so attractive to migrants is probably the fact we don't have ID cards. And most people don't want to introduce them, so that pull factor isn't going to change.

    Has there been recent polling on ID cards ?

    I think most Tory MPs & newspaper columnists don't want them, which is what counts in the immediate future but I suspect the general public is extremely ambivalent about them now.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 3,870

    This is what I call worryingly woke

    @washingtonpost
    Here's what we know so far on the sequence of events that led to the Waukesha tragedy caused by a SUV.

    Guns don't kill people; SUVs kill people!
  • eekeek Posts: 15,856
    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,520
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
    Light up a gitanes on the beach ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    The same older generation passing on more assets than any generation before to their children and grandchildren?
  • Leon said:

    This is what I call worryingly woke

    @washingtonpost
    Here's what we know so far on the sequence of events that led to the Waukesha tragedy caused by a SUV.

    That cannot be a serious headline. Can it??

    Say it ain't so
    It's not in the story but that is their tweet, and it repeats the "caused by a SUV" in the link to the story

    The story mentions suspect/driver by name and age, but it's the SUV that does the damage.

    https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1463686399123730443
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty bloody ropey after my Moderna booster jab. Seriously sore and frozen arm, general malaise and fatigue. Much worse than AZ, which caused a tiny bit of tenderness in the shoulder...

    I had similar with Pfizer after AZ x 2. It will be very time limited though. You'll be fine tomorrow.
    Ta. I am reassured

    It's an odd feeling, like waking up with a really bad cold except no sneezing, runny nose, sore throat. Just the malaise. All I wanna do is crawl back into bed

    Also like waking up after Mike Tyson, in his peak, punched you repeatedly in the upper arm as you slept
    Wimp
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 464
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    The same older generation passing on more assets than any generation before to their children and grandchildren?
    Assets they're currently using to extract vast amounts of wealth from the young.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    If paintings of black people as Jesus are woke, then woke just got a lot less scary.

    Bethany : Wait a minute. Christ. You know Christ?
    Rufus : Knew him? Shit, N***** owes me 12 bucks!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    You just don't want to admit you made a crass schoolboy error with your stats.

    Time to see a nice Deltic photo, I think.
    No error at all.

    45% of all voters voted Yes in 2014, only 40% of all voters back Yes now amongst all voters, a disaster for Sturgeon
    So 55% of all voters voted No in 2014, only 45% of all voters back No now amongst all voters, so disaster for Boris?
    No as Boris can and will refuse indyref2 forever as long as he is PM.

    The only way that might be even a slightest risk to him is if say 60% of Scots back independence, with just 40% of Scots backing independence Boris can easily ignore Sturgeon for the rest of his premiership with no major threat of unrest in Scotland
  • eek said:

    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
    Not help carry the boat at least!
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,743
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Caught a clip of Starmer on the One O'Clock News. He said something along the lines of "I don't know why those arrests couldn't have been made last week. The only thing that changed yesterday was that lots of people died."

    There are many arguments to be had about the migrant crossings, but Starmer is spot on with that comment.

    Not if the arrests are for manslaughter
    I guess our police could say the same as to why they didn't arrest Wayne Couzens days before he kidnapped, raped and brutally murdered Sarah Everard.
    What - the crime hadn't occurred yet? Seems fair enough.

    What do you think the police should have arrested people for? Catching a boat from France to England probably isn't illegal, so probably neither is supplying the boat.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    edited November 25

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    The same older generation passing on more assets than any generation before to their children and grandchildren?
    Assets they're currently using to extract vast amounts of wealth from the young.
    They aren't particularly. They also paid NI, even now most of the young are not graduates but amongst the older generation barely any had the chance to go to university let alone pay fees and most started work at 16 if not earlier
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,030
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Ugh, now I've got a weirdly stiff and aching back. What's that about?

    You're old.

    Sorry.
    I am, indeed, old

    *weeps uncontrollably*

    Tho I have also read that the young tend to react badly to the jabs more than their elders, so there's that
    Yep - AZ - me - nothing, nephew - poleaxed....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
    Light up a gitanes on the beach ?
    Eyes inflatable boat, looks at lock knife..... {hmmmmmm}

    IDEA!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmkT8YU4jH8
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
    They have guns. The cops. They could get out and deflate the dinghy in 3 minutes, saving the child's life. They do not

    And there are other images of multiple French cops - not just 2 - looking on and doing zip


    https://news.sky.com/video/migrants-french-police-watch-on-as-migrants-cross-channel-12429301
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    So you're on the side of those in favour of cancellations?

    Cancellation culture is good now?

    I am shocked! Shocked! At this revelation. 😱
    It is genuinely fascinating how Woke is infesting the Christian church. And again it is an uncanny echo of Christianity's own genesis

    When the early Christians wished to convert some heathen tribe, they often kept the pagan shrines intact, and simply imposed their own symbols and buildings thereupon, thus absorbing the spiritual power of the Old Faith into the New. That's why so many churches in the UK and beyond are built on pagan sites, which can sometimes still be recognised - yew trees are a telling presence. The same happened with Gods - Isis nursing Horus became Mother Mary nursing the baby Jesus.

    See here, the exact same iconography


    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545961


    Turning George Floyd into Jesus is Wokeness doing to Christianity what Christianity did to Zeus, Woden, Osiris and Valhalla. A pleasing symmetry, but a menacing development, which completely vindicates the prediction made in that superb Spectator essay by an ex PB-er
    Leaving aside the George Floyd Jesus it is a good thing there are more black Jesus images, especially as the average Christian worldwide is more likely to be black than white now in the 21st century.

    Jesus himself was Middle Eastern not European of course
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,992
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    Oh God, not that Sean Thomas c*** again.

    He used to post here, thank f*** he took his stories of Thai hookers and Delancey St pubs somewhere else.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. HYUFD, Jesus was from Yorkshire.

    Well, his dad was, anyway.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    Oh God, not that Sean Thomas c*** again.

    He used to post here, thank f*** he took his stories of Thai hookers and Delancey St pubs somewhere else.
    Yes, an unsavoury individual, with few redeeming features. But handy with the words


    I understand he now lives in a mansion on Victoria Island, British Columbia, where he rules a sex commune of nubile Corbynites
  • boulayboulay Posts: 186
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
    Walk up to boat, draw guns, back the refugees away, shoot the engine, shoot the boat to puncture it on the beach so it can’t go in the sea, return to call and radio in a report….!

    Not overly serious but If the French govt is about to pay French fishers who haven’t been given licences €60m to compensate them then maybe instead they could hire them to patrol the coast and radio in if they see dinghies on the beach so the French navy/coastguard can intercept them in time….. as there are apparently so many French fishermen unable to fish then between them covering the 200 mile coastline isn’t much of an ask.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    boulay said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
    Walk up to boat, draw guns, back the refugees away, shoot the engine, shoot the boat to puncture it on the beach so it can’t go in the sea, return to call and radio in a report….!

    Not overly serious but If the French govt is about to pay French fishers who haven’t been given licences €60m to compensate them then maybe instead they could hire them to patrol the coast and radio in if they see dinghies on the beach so the French navy/coastguard can intercept them in time….. as there are apparently so many French fishermen unable to fish then between them covering the 200 mile coastline isn’t much of an ask.

    The videos - multiple - of armed French cops in numbers doing sod all as tiny children are loaded onto these boats are absolutely appalling, in retrospect. How is that not manslaughter by negligence?

    They can stop the boats and save innocent lives, they do not. Surely that is a crime?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 372
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    The same older generation passing on more assets than any generation before to their children and grandchildren?
    To be very polite HYUFD, but you are sort of making the point it was the generation who wore the money tinted spectacles.
    “Tell Sid he can have council house virtually given to him, he only has to apply.” Up goes property prices. Sing we are in the money. How did that turn out? For the better?

    Has there been any thought or care in all that for the following 18-40 generation today?

    Utilities were privatised in a particularly way for producers to also be suppliers, as my dad explained (and he’s a capitalist and Conservative) it’s not Capitalism to knowingly create cartels.

    And that’s before we get started on what the outgoing generation is leaving us with polluted oceans, air, no lungs of the earth or ozone,

    It needs a reset. There’s no such things now as this way or the socialism way type party political broadcasts, there’s different types of capitalism and smarter ways of doing it. It needs a reset.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 737
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    So you're on the side of those in favour of cancellations?

    Cancellation culture is good now?

    I am shocked! Shocked! At this revelation. 😱
    It is genuinely fascinating how Woke is infesting the Christian church. And again it is an uncanny echo of Christianity's own genesis

    When the early Christians wished to convert some heathen tribe, they often kept the pagan shrines intact, and simply imposed their own symbols and buildings thereupon, thus absorbing the spiritual power of the Old Faith into the New. That's why so many churches in the UK and beyond are built on pagan sites, which can sometimes still be recognised - yew trees are a telling presence. The same happened with Gods - Isis nursing Horus became Mother Mary nursing the baby Jesus.

    See here, the exact same iconography


    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545961


    Turning George Floyd into Jesus is Wokeness doing to Christianity what Christianity did to Zeus, Woden, Osiris and Valhalla. A pleasing symmetry, but a menacing development, which completely vindicates the prediction made in that superb Spectator essay by an ex PB-er
    How is it remotely menacing?

    It sounds like evolution to me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    edited November 25

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    The same older generation passing on more assets than any generation before to their children and grandchildren?
    To be very polite HYUFD, but you are sort of making the point it was the generation who wore the money tinted spectacles.
    “Tell Sid he can have council house virtually given to him, he only has to apply.” Up goes property prices. Sing we are in the money. How did that turn out? For the better?

    Has there been any thought or care in all that for the following 18-40 generation today?

    Utilities were privatised in a particularly way for producers to also be suppliers, as my dad explained (and he’s a capitalist and Conservative) it’s not Capitalism to knowingly create cartels.

    And that’s before we get started on what the outgoing generation is leaving us with polluted oceans, air, no lungs of the earth or ozone,

    It needs a reset. There’s no such things now as this way or the socialism way type party political broadcasts, there’s different types of capitalism and smarter ways of doing it. It needs a reset.
    Absolutely for the better, sale of council homes expanded property ownership to levels never seen before.

    This generation of 18-40 year olds don't know how lucky they are. More of them have had the chance to go to university than any generation before them, more of them will live longer than any generation before them (and it is of course the older generation most hit by Covid), more of them are in work than most previous generations and more of them have more choice in what they buy and use and where they buy it and in what they watch for entertainment than any generation before them. Even in my day we only had 5 channels as teenagers. On top of that most of them will inherit a sum previous generations could only dream of!

    So no I will have no whinging from young people today, a century ago many of their great grandfathers went down the pit as teenagers and were dead by 50. Many of their great great grandfathers would be dead by 25 in the trenches in WW1. Today of course too renewables in the UK certainly are more plentiful than coal mines
  • Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
  • Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    Quite right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0WdJx-Wkw
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
    Scotland can vote itself out of the union by persuading MPs at Westminster, which is Scotland's own sovereign, shared parliament, where Scotland is equally and fully represented, that Scotland needs an indy referendum

    We know this works because the Scots thus persuaded Westminster in 2014. A referendum was granted, the Scots said No, that is the end of the matter for a generation UNLESS Westminster can be persuaded, again. Perhaps the Nats should try that instead of moaning
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,514

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Exactly as I predicted downthread

    "Chris Philp
    @CPhilpOfficial
    ·
    5h
    I’m deeply concerned by this photo of French law enforcement officers standing by doing nothing while migrants embark on a dangerous, illegal and unnecessary Channel crossing - putting lives at risk as we tragically saw yesterday"


    Headline: Why Didn't France Stop Them

    The migrants are actually carrying a toddler. Les Gendarmes do F all

    https://twitter.com/CPhilpOfficial/status/1463789440468410373?s=20

    So you have 2 French policemen and 30 refugees carrying a boat - what exactly can those 2 policemen actually do?
    Not help carry the boat at least!
    A quick sketch of Mohammed perhaps?

    (I know they're not all Muslims)
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,182
    Chrissy Pagel is almost as excited by this new Gauteng variant as she was by the new series of Love Island.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    What utter rubbish, no more than to be expected from some on the left.

    Scotland has its own Parliament, unlike England, for most of its domestic policy AND elects MPs to Westminster. As Leon correctly states.

    In 2023/4 it is not impossible England could vote Tory but get a Starmer government propped up by the SNP with no parliament of its own.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,520

    Chrissy Pagel is almost as excited by this new Gauteng variant as she was by the new series of Love Island.

    Has it been rehomed ? Thought it was Botswana covid the other day.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    Chrissy Pagel is almost as excited by this new Gauteng variant as she was by the new series of Love Island.

    It is unsettling news. Twitter seems divided on its potential danger. Looks like it might evade vaccines, but has low transmissibility, so Delta Plus should outcompete?

    But does Delta Plus provide immunity against this new strain?

    FFS. If we get a nasty new variant, that's it. Humanity is done. Switch off the sun
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
    Scotland can vote itself out of the union by persuading MPs at Westminster, which is Scotland's own sovereign, shared parliament, where Scotland is equally and fully represented, that Scotland needs an indy referendum

    We know this works because the Scots thus persuaded Westminster in 2014. A referendum was granted, the Scots said No, that is the end of the matter for a generation UNLESS Westminster can be persuaded, again. Perhaps the Nats should try that instead of moaning
    48 of the 59 MPs Scotland elects were elected on a manifesto of having another referendum. That is a very clear overwhelming majority of their MPs in Westminster.

    Unless you're saying it doesn't matter a jot what the Scottish voters say, their future in the union can only be changed if the English MPs agree. Is that what you're saying?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
    Scotland can vote itself out of the union by persuading MPs at Westminster, which is Scotland's own sovereign, shared parliament, where Scotland is equally and fully represented, that Scotland needs an indy referendum

    We know this works because the Scots thus persuaded Westminster in 2014. A referendum was granted, the Scots said No, that is the end of the matter for a generation UNLESS Westminster can be persuaded, again. Perhaps the Nats should try that instead of moaning
    48 of the 59 MPs Scotland elects were elected on a manifesto of having another referendum. That is a very clear overwhelming majority of their MPs in Westminster.

    Unless you're saying it doesn't matter a jot what the Scottish voters say, their future in the union can only be changed if the English MPs agree. Is that what you're saying?
    No, their future in the union can only be changed if the BRITISH parliament - including Scotland - agrees. This is far from impossible, it happened in 2014. I am sure it will happen again, at some point, just as it did in Quebec

    But a generation needs to elapse. The fundamental structure of the nation cannot be constantly menaced
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,182
    Pulpstar said:

    Chrissy Pagel is almost as excited by this new Gauteng variant as she was by the new series of Love Island.

    Has it been rehomed ? Thought it was Botswana covid the other day.
    Who knows.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523
    edited November 25

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
    Scotland can vote itself out of the union by persuading MPs at Westminster, which is Scotland's own sovereign, shared parliament, where Scotland is equally and fully represented, that Scotland needs an indy referendum

    We know this works because the Scots thus persuaded Westminster in 2014. A referendum was granted, the Scots said No, that is the end of the matter for a generation UNLESS Westminster can be persuaded, again. Perhaps the Nats should try that instead of moaning
    48 of the 59 MPs Scotland elects were elected on a manifesto of having another referendum. That is a very clear overwhelming majority of their MPs in Westminster.

    Unless you're saying it doesn't matter a jot what the Scottish voters say, their future in the union can only be changed if the English MPs agree. Is that what you're saying?
    No, their future in the union can only be changed if a majority of UK MPs agree. That has been the case since 1707
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
    Scotland can vote itself out of the union by persuading MPs at Westminster, which is Scotland's own sovereign, shared parliament, where Scotland is equally and fully represented, that Scotland needs an indy referendum

    We know this works because the Scots thus persuaded Westminster in 2014. A referendum was granted, the Scots said No, that is the end of the matter for a generation UNLESS Westminster can be persuaded, again. Perhaps the Nats should try that instead of moaning
    48 of the 59 MPs Scotland elects were elected on a manifesto of having another referendum. That is a very clear overwhelming majority of their MPs in Westminster.

    Unless you're saying it doesn't matter a jot what the Scottish voters say, their future in the union can only be changed if the English MPs agree. Is that what you're saying?
    No, their future in the union can only be changed if the BRITISH parliament - including Scotland - agrees. This is far from impossible, it happened in 2014. I am sure it will happen again, at some point, just as it did in Quebec

    But a generation needs to elapse. The fundamental structure of the nation cannot be constantly menaced
    Of course the future can be constantly menaced every time we have an election. That's democracy. We don't wait a generation between elections, we wait no more than five years as a maximum.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
    Scotland can vote itself out of the union by persuading MPs at Westminster, which is Scotland's own sovereign, shared parliament, where Scotland is equally and fully represented, that Scotland needs an indy referendum

    We know this works because the Scots thus persuaded Westminster in 2014. A referendum was granted, the Scots said No, that is the end of the matter for a generation UNLESS Westminster can be persuaded, again. Perhaps the Nats should try that instead of moaning
    48 of the 59 MPs Scotland elects were elected on a manifesto of having another referendum. That is a very clear overwhelming majority of their MPs in Westminster.

    Unless you're saying it doesn't matter a jot what the Scottish voters say, their future in the union can only be changed if the English MPs agree. Is that what you're saying?
    Yep. You can have whatever you want if we agree with you. If we disagree you can do one.

    When the union was formed it was mutual - like a marriage. What Leon and HYUFD are saying is that Scotland can't have a divorce unless the husband agrees.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 737
    Nigelb said:

    SandraMc said:

    When I think about the old British Rail, I am reminded of the story about how the flamboyant advertising executive Peter Marsh (who was once married to the actress Pat Phoenix) pitched for the BR account. Executives from BR turned up at the ABM (Allen, Brady, Marsh) offices to be met by a bored looking receptionist, who told them to wait. The waiting room was filthy with dirty coffee cups and filled ashtrays. Just as the BR executives got tired of waiting and were about to leave, Peter Marsh burst in and said: "Now that you've seen what people think of BR, let's discuss how we can change your image."

    Great story. Did he win the account?
    Yes.
    And did he choose Jimmy Savile to present the adverts?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    That's true as long as its a voluntary union.

    If Scotland can not vote its way out of the union, it ceases to be voluntary.
    Scotland can vote itself out of the union by persuading MPs at Westminster, which is Scotland's own sovereign, shared parliament, where Scotland is equally and fully represented, that Scotland needs an indy referendum

    We know this works because the Scots thus persuaded Westminster in 2014. A referendum was granted, the Scots said No, that is the end of the matter for a generation UNLESS Westminster can be persuaded, again. Perhaps the Nats should try that instead of moaning
    48 of the 59 MPs Scotland elects were elected on a manifesto of having another referendum. That is a very clear overwhelming majority of their MPs in Westminster.

    Unless you're saying it doesn't matter a jot what the Scottish voters say, their future in the union can only be changed if the English MPs agree. Is that what you're saying?
    Yep. You can have whatever you want if we agree with you. If we disagree you can do one.

    When the union was formed it was mutual - like a marriage. What Leon and HYUFD are saying is that Scotland can't have a divorce unless the husband agrees.
    HYUFD probably doesn't see an issue in that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,871
    Leon said:

    Chrissy Pagel is almost as excited by this new Gauteng variant as she was by the new series of Love Island.

    It is unsettling news. Twitter seems divided on its potential danger. Looks like it might evade vaccines, but has low transmissibility, so Delta Plus should outcompete?

    But does Delta Plus provide immunity against this new strain?

    FFS. If we get a nasty new variant, that's it. Humanity is done. Switch off the sun
    Don't worry about it, I think the key thing to remember is that any variant which has sufficiently diluted binding efficiency to antibodies will also have extremely diluted binding efficiency to the ACE-2 receptor making it much less effective.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,097

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, ages ago I used to watch the paper review on Sky News.

    There was a wonderful moment with an older present and guest, and a younger guest. The younger guest made some comment about evil Tories and Thatcher being a milk-snatcher, which made the two older guests reminisce about how much they hated the milk, being either freezing cold or warm and horrid, at which point the youth performed a swift u-turn and declared he was too young to remember it.

    Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again.

    LOL is this a pastiche of a Tory election ppb you have seen? 😄

    I am thinking of voting Labour Grandad.
    Oh. Oh dear. Let me tell you about what it was like before you were born.
    You do realise, if the Conservatives adopt such a “ Luckily, we have history to teach us how stupid some things (like socialism) are, without needing to undergo the atrocity of inflicting them on the human race ever again” message there won’t be a single Conservative voter left in fifty years?

    Why? Because it’s Patronising. 18-40s. are intelligent and sentient too, we can work things out for ourselves from the evidence for and against.

    How do you think this older generation today is going to be remembered in the future? Abysmally. As they who presided over decline, ruin and bad decision making. On the watch of today’s older voters, what a complete mess has been made of everything!

    So it’s the one older generation of all most least in position to patronise anyone.
    The same older generation passing on more assets than any generation before to their children and grandchildren?
    To be very polite HYUFD, but you are sort of making the point it was the generation who wore the money tinted spectacles.
    “Tell Sid he can have council house virtually given to him, he only has to apply.” Up goes property prices. Sing we are in the money. How did that turn out? For the better?

    Might have turned out fine, had local authorities been allowed to invest the proceeds in new housing stock.

    Instead, it was the start of the long drawn out evisceration of local government finances.
  • Without wanting to repeat the tiresome oh yes it is oh no it isn't bullshit about HYUFD's unique perspectives on democracy, the "you can't have it" approach to independence only strengthens the likelihood that when there eventually is another referendum that it votes to leave.

    Have the vote now - there is a clear democratic mandate for one. Write into the legislation that if the vote is no that a suitable period has to pass before the parties consider having another one. No will win and it will be legally agreed that there can't be a 3rd one quickly.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,901
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    Oh God, not that Sean Thomas c*** again.

    He used to post here, thank f*** he took his stories of Thai hookers and Delancey St pubs somewhere else.
    Yes, an unsavoury individual, with few redeeming features. But handy with the words


    I understand he now lives in a mansion on Victoria Island, British Columbia, where he rules a sex commune of nubile Corbynites
    In his dreams ......

    Anyway, I've had absolutely no reaction to any of my jabs. Does this mean my immune system is not working or fantastically strong or am I just lucky?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,260
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sleazy broken Scottish Nationalism on the slide

    A poll by YouGov for The Times finds that 40 per cent of people say they would vote yes in another referendum, a drop of one point compared with the company’s last survey in May.

    The proportion of people who would vote no remained at 46 per cent, while 9 per cent said they were unsure, up by one point. The remainder would not vote or refused to say.



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/voters-lose-interest-on-union-question-25mzsz3r8

    Astonishing that despite Brexit and PM Boris Sturgeon has actually managed to see Yes fall by 5% below the 45% it got in the 2014 referendum.

    No wonder Salmond and Alba are so furious and of course no prospect of a legal indyref2 under this Tory government either
    The actual Yes figure is 46.5% - which is above the 2014 referendum figure.

    But of course you are muddling figures which include and which exclude DKs.

    Professor Curtice would not be impressed.
    It is 40% including DKs, so in terms of all voters below the 45% from 2014 as I said
    Here we go again. So you agree that a majority do not explicitly support the Union?
    The majority explicitly supported the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and this Tory government as long as it remains in power will not allow another indyref2 for at least a generation until 2014 has elapsed
    So democracy doesn’t apply to Scotland. The very essence of colonialism.
    No, colonialism is when a foreign power occupies your land, without your permission, and then rules it without giving you equal representation in the legislature

    Scotland willingly entered the Union with England, and it is fully represented at Westminster, as WELL as having highly significant autonomous powers at Holyrood. Indeed Scots are able to vote on some English laws when the opposite is not the case. If there is any hint of colonialism here, it is Scottish power over the English
    Golly, never mind make yourself cry, you've brought a tear to my een.



  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 11,182
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Chrissy Pagel is almost as excited by this new Gauteng variant as she was by the new series of Love Island.

    It is unsettling news. Twitter seems divided on its potential danger. Looks like it might evade vaccines, but has low transmissibility, so Delta Plus should outcompete?

    But does Delta Plus provide immunity against this new strain?

    FFS. If we get a nasty new variant, that's it. Humanity is done. Switch off the sun
    Don't worry about it, I think the key thing to remember is that any variant which has sufficiently diluted binding efficiency to antibodies will also have extremely diluted binding efficiency to the ACE-2 receptor making it much less effective.
    Just reading a Twitter thread saying exactly that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,097

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty bloody ropey after my Moderna booster jab. Seriously sore and frozen arm, general malaise and fatigue. Much worse than AZ, which caused a tiny bit of tenderness in the shoulder...

    That's a sign that you've probably previously had COVID.
    I am now near-certain that I did have Covid way back in January 2020, caught in Thailand. That's what Public Health England thought, that's why they sent me to be tested in UCLH, tho a SNAFU prevented any actual test

    It would also explain why I haven't caught Covid since, despite taking many risks in recent months: pubs, bars, restaurants, planes, the works
    "That's a sign that you've probably previously had COVID."

    Is it? First I've heard of that idea.
    Yes it has been punted before, by proper scientists, tho there are also other explanations, ofc
    Hey, my Chemistry degree still just about qualifies me as a "proper scientist" just not a practicing one.
    You never lose the scientific training.
    You know a junior asked me earlier this year whether or not I thought my degree was useful, I was going to say "not really" as always but actually after having a short think about it, I think it is pretty useful. Not the chemistry because fuck that noise, but the methodology of being a scientist and being open to any and all criticism of a theory, idea or model. I think a lot of our more public scientists, especially those in iSAGE, seem to have forgotten that a big part of science is having regular retrospectives on current theories vs real life data. It's something I've noticed myself doing over the course of this pandemic, go back on old ideas and make sure they are still relevant.

    Too many of the public scientific advisors aren't doing that exercise right now. Just today I read that some SAGE scientists are calling for the immediate implementation of plan b, despite there being not very much evidence to support that. They're stuck in a timeloop of a political agenda that lockdown measures are the only way to combat this. I'm sure when Germany, France and other major European countries go into a full lockdown in two weeks those same voices will condemn the government as irresponsible and callous for not doing the same here and in the process completely ignore the available real world data on infection rates, testing and hospitalisation.
    I'm a recovering former scientist, and what is notable is that science works more on a collective level than on an individual level.

    Individual scientists are human, and most of them become wedded to particular ideas and find it hard to abandon those ideas. The hardest thing in science I had to do was to abandon months of work that just wasn't working as I'd hoped it would. If it had initially worked well enough to publish a paper on it I would have found it a lot harder to give up on it later.

    But collectively science works because other scientists don't share the emotional attachment and cognitive biases that have individual scientists stick to a dead end, because they don't have the history with that idea. They'll get attached to some other ideas in time.

    So I have a lot of faith in Science, but am more wary of individual scientists...
    The medical establishment seems particularly susceptible to unjustified attachments to dogma, for some reason.
  • Without wanting to repeat the tiresome oh yes it is oh no it isn't bullshit about HYUFD's unique perspectives on democracy, the "you can't have it" approach to independence only strengthens the likelihood that when there eventually is another referendum that it votes to leave.

    Have the vote now - there is a clear democratic mandate for one. Write into the legislation that if the vote is no that a suitable period has to pass before the parties consider having another one. No will win and it will be legally agreed that there can't be a 3rd one quickly.

    Saying that the Scots, having voted for a referendum can't actually have one . . .

    . . . is as self-defeating and stupid as Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Nick Clegg etc saying that despite having been elected promising an EU referendum, we can't actually have one.

    All its doing is building up the grievance to the point that eventually the dam will break.

    I expect HYUFD to be so silly as to not understand that - I'm surprised though that Leon can't grasp the concept since he can see it so clearly with Europe.
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    So you're on the side of those in favour of cancellations?

    Cancellation culture is good now?

    I am shocked! Shocked! At this revelation. 😱
    It is genuinely fascinating how Woke is infesting the Christian church. And again it is an uncanny echo of Christianity's own genesis

    When the early Christians wished to convert some heathen tribe, they often kept the pagan shrines intact, and simply imposed their own symbols and buildings thereupon, thus absorbing the spiritual power of the Old Faith into the New. That's why so many churches in the UK and beyond are built on pagan sites, which can sometimes still be recognised - yew trees are a telling presence. The same happened with Gods - Isis nursing Horus became Mother Mary nursing the baby Jesus.

    See here, the exact same iconography


    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545961


    Turning George Floyd into Jesus is Wokeness doing to Christianity what Christianity did to Zeus, Woden, Osiris and Valhalla. A pleasing symmetry, but a menacing development, which completely vindicates the prediction made in that superb Spectator essay by an ex PB-er
    Leaving aside the George Floyd Jesus it is a good thing there are more black Jesus images, especially as the average Christian worldwide is more likely to be black than white now in the 21st century.

    Jesus himself was Middle Eastern not European of course
    SOCIALISM = RELIGION

    therefore:

    RELIGION = SOCIALISM!
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 896
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Yep, Woke not a problem


    "Students at Washington’s Catholic University of America seek to remove George Floyd Jesus"

    "Students at a Catholic university are petitioning to remove a “heretical” painting that depicts George Floyd as Jesus.

    "Mama, by Kelly Latimore, shows Floyd being cradled by a maternal figure and evokes Michelangelo’s Pietà sculpture of Mary and Jesus after the crucifixion."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/students-at-washingtons-catholic-university-of-america-seek-to-remove-george-floyd-jesus-7tw69fzgr?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1637847470

    I can't work out who's meant to be woke here..

    Is the painting woke?

    Or are those "cancelling" it woke because it upsets them?
    The painting is Woke.

    Woke is becoming a religion. There was an excellent essay on this exact phenomenon in the Spectator, quite recently

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-if-wokeness-really-is-the-new-christianity-
    Oh God, not that Sean Thomas c*** again.

    He used to post here, thank f*** he took his stories of Thai hookers and Delancey St pubs somewhere else.
    Yes, an unsavoury individual, with few redeeming features. But handy with the words


    I understand he now lives in a mansion on Victoria Island, British Columbia, where he rules a sex commune of nubile Corbynites
    But rumour has it that he had to marry the lot of them, before they would give their consent. Lucky Sean T is a wealthy man, as well as a successful writer.
Sign In or Register to comment.