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Climate change: The huge opinion gap in the US – politicalbetting.com

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  • From the point of view of our economy I agree. From the point of view of reducing our CO2 production, why does it matter?
    Because once you become reliant on somewhere else for strategic infrastructure you are at their mercy. You get what they want to sell you at the price they are willing to sell at.

    Anyway, this is about global CO2. Which means much much more clean energy production globally. Should we be a passenger and let other countries grow rich off that? Or use our local wind and tide resources combined with our formerly world-class engineering resources to develop leading edge technology that can make us rich?

    Britain used to be the R&D heart of so many industries. Then from the 70s onwards we threw it all away and find ourselves in a bizarre world where the kind of long-term subsidised investment offered by the people who have replaced us as world-leaders is seen as akin to communism.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Hmmm

    image

    The data on percentage change peer year (which I think you are referring to) looks rather random to be drawing such a conclusion.
    But he is a feersum enjineeya. He must know what he is talking about and you must be mistaken.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198

    I downloaded the figures.

    If you give the election year to both governments
    :
    -1.0% T (1991-7)
    -1.7% L
    -2.5% Co
    -2.9% T

    To the Incoming gov't only

    T -0.6%
    L -2.0%
    Co -2.3%
    T -2.9%

    Outgoing:

    T -1.0%
    L -1.6%
    Co -3.4%
    T -2.8%


    You can do Q figures if you want, but I can't see much that supports your point
    Further, since all the reductions relate to decisions made years before....

    My main take away from that report is that reductions have been happening since the 90s. Which given that all governments since then have had CO2 reduction as policy is not especially surprising.
  • I suppose it depends on where they are being imported from and what their environmental standards are like. The EU or US etc probably fine - except of course for the transport environmental costs - but if they are coming from some other countries with poor environmental and social controls then that would be a cause for concern.
    I suspect that the CO2 cost of transporting the turbines to the site are a tiny fraction of the CO2 saved over the course of their useful lives, probably offset by making sure you get the most efficient ones you can, from where ever the source is.

    I am guessing though, and am willing to be corrected by anyone with an actual link to the figures.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited November 2021
    Cookie said:

    I think you're confusing what is technically the case with what would be an acceptable basis for the monarchy to continue.
    You are technically correct that King Charles III could make whatever pronouncements he likes.

    But if he does start to go off the nuttier end of the spectrum, support for the concept of the monarchy would be bound to fall. And if it fell below a certain point, the monarchy ends.
    There may be no specific mechanism for abolishing the British monarchy, but that doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. Realistically - whatever the law may say - the monarchy only persists with the consent of the people.
    Only if the monarchy tried to veto manifesto commitments being passed into law or advocated constantly unpopular policies.

    If the monarch vetoed unpopular bills not in the manifesto of the elected government or advocated popular things like tackling climate change as Charles is doing there would be nothing to stop that at all. Indeed the monarchy may become even more popular even if politicians dislike it
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,307
    HYUFD said:

    It wouldn't. We do not have a written constitution, our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament in lawmaking.

    The English civil war and the glorious revolution merely asserted that Parliament had to be used to make laws and raise taxes and make wars, we could not be governed by the divine right of Kings alone.

    However it did not mean that the monarch could have no role in lawmaking whatsoever. If the monarch vetoed a bill which was not in the manifesto of the elected government it would not be unconstitutional even if maybe not advisable. Whatever the parties in Parliament thought about it they could not stop it.

    However even if Charles is unlikely to do even that there is certainly absolutely nothing in our constitution to stop the monarch giving their personal views on matters of policy or politics, which was my original point
    We do have a constitution albeit an unwritten one. Numerous learned tomes have been written on it: you could make an easy and readable start with Walter Bagehot.

    It would be a truly moronic Monarch who started pontificating on poitically contentious or partisan issues. And a very short-lived reign too.

    With the best will in the world, don't you ever pause and reflect on the implications of some of your outlandish assertions? On this one, Republicans couldn't have a better friend and ally than you. We Tory patriots, who genuinely cherish our constiutional monarchy, recoil in horror.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    Cookie said:

    Yes, I get slightly irritated by the 'nothing is being done' meme. The progress of the UK over the last 20-odd years has been extraordinary, and is to the credit of the governments of all hues who have achieved it. There are trade offs, and it has led to more expensive and less reliable electricity than might otherwise be the case, but to deny the progress that has been made is daft. And further developments are in the pipeline.
    We will have a day in the next few years where we need no gas at all.
    I think we're much more likely to build confidence in finishing the job if we celebrate the progress we've made to date.
  • Carnyx said:

    Hmm, the Romans had a rather better organised response to mass immigration if they didn't like it. Vide C. Julius Caesar and many others, re: crossings of the Rhine and Danube. Not to mention T. Aelius Hadrianus.
    For be it for me to argue with a classical scholar like our glorious leader but I was under the impression that it was pretty much only large scale migration and the use of foederati imported from the rest of the Empire and beyond that kept Britannia in the Empire for the last half century or more.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    Leon said:

    I don't understand the empty stadiums at the T20s

    Is this Covid? Or just apathy? Or are tickets £400?

    I can't imagine a nicer thing to do of a warm Emirates evening than going to see some lively international cricket...

    I assume they are all watching COP26!
  • Because once you become reliant on somewhere else for strategic infrastructure you are at their mercy. You get what they want to sell you at the price they are willing to sell at.

    Anyway, this is about global CO2. Which means much much more clean energy production globally. Should we be a passenger and let other countries grow rich off that? Or use our local wind and tide resources combined with our formerly world-class engineering resources to develop leading edge technology that can make us rich?

    Britain used to be the R&D heart of so many industries. Then from the 70s onwards we threw it all away and find ourselves in a bizarre world where the kind of long-term subsidised investment offered by the people who have replaced us as world-leaders is seen as akin to communism.
    I basically agree with all you say here, but I don't want to make the best the enemy of the good.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,782
    England in a spot of bother here
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I am claiming that whether we do anything now or not it will still happen in the not too distant future as a natural process. As it has on so many occasions before. Even someone as slow and scientifically illiterate as you should be able to grasp that basic concept.
    Yes, thank you for illustrating my point for me. Your position is exactly that of a doctor saying "this man has cancer, but at his age he is bound to pop his clogs in the not too distant future as a natural process, so let's not bother with him." If there's a difference what is it please?
  • I suspect that the CO2 cost of transporting the turbines to the site are a tiny fraction of the CO2 saved over the course of their useful lives, probably offset by making sure you get the most efficient ones you can, from where ever the source is.

    I am guessing though, and am willing to be corrected by anyone with an actual link to the figures.
    Yep generally I am with you on that.
  • Carnyx said:

    He's called the Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, oddly enough. Not very logical that he has the same name in 2 out of the three GB nations but a different name in the third. One title or three titles would make better sense.
    It isn't that odd. The British crown unites the old crowns of England and Scotland. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the English crown title applies in England & Wakes, and the Scottish crown title applies in Scotland.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,939

    Well there was also that little scuffle over whether it was legal for states to suceed (sp?) from the union back in the 1860s. I think that counts as "using violence to pursue political goals". (The fact that I agree with the Union's war aims are not important here).
    The entire nation was settled on a genocide, and enriched through the theft and working to death of other human beings. The rest is detail.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,629
    edited November 2021
    Aslan said:

    And it's all evangelicals too. Once you start believing in stuff without evidence, you can be fed any lie. Despite the US being founded on Enlightenment principles, the rationalist spirit of the Enlightenment never took deep root in the US population as it did in Western Europe.
    Hmm. Rather simplistic about evangelicals. Based on Trump:Biden numbers it varies by eg ethnic group.

    Depends if by "all evangelicals" you mean "all of the evangelicals in the USA", or "all of the evangelicals who voted for trump", or even "this group consists entirely of evangelicals".

    White VI at the last Presidential Election evangelicals split about 70%:20% Trump:Biden. Black Evangelicals about 20%:70% Trump:Biden. Other ethnic groups split about 58%:32% Trump:Biden.
    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/september/evangelical-white-black-ethnic-vote-trump-biden-lifeway-sur.html

    I'd welcome other numbers if anyone has relevant into.


    >Once you start believing in stuff without evidence, you can be fed any lie. Despite the US being founded on Enlightenment principles, the rationalist spirit of the Enlightenment never took deep root in the US population as it did in Western Europe.

    This is mainly just prejudice speaking, based on a value-judgement you have chosen to apply about who is 'rational' and who is not.

    One interesting interpretation of Christian Fundamentalism is that it is Rationalism overapplied inappropriately to religion - hence the obsession with a literal interpreetation of the OT etc. This is where Dawkinsites (not applying that to you) tend to trip over themselves - they imagine that their particular dominant mode of understanding is the only one that can be acknowledged.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198

    Yep generally I am with you on that.
    The strategic security issue comes up with respect to batteries for cars.

    The difference between batteries and turbines vs oil and coal imports is that if someone shuts off lithium supplies or wind turbines, the effects are much much slower than cutting off primary energy sources.

    In addition, the spread of sources globally would mean that anyone trying to OPEC either item, would rapidly find that they were simply shutting themselves out of growing marketplace.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited November 2021
    JohnO said:

    We do have a constitution albeit an unwritten one. Numerous learned tomes have been written on it: you could make an easy and readable start with Walter Bagehot.

    It would be a truly moronic Monarch who started pontificating on poitically contentious or partisan issues. And a very short-lived reign too.

    With the best will in the world, don't you ever pause and reflect on the implications of some of your outlandish assertions? On this one, Republicans couldn't have a better friend and ally than you. We Tory patriots, who genuinely cherish our constiutional monarchy, recoil in horror.

    Bagehot is merely giving his opinion of what it is, it is still Crown in Parliament on which our constitution is based and Crown in Parliament alone.

    You need both Parliament's support and the Crown's agreement to make laws.

    You can rant as much as you want and try and muzzle Prince Charles speaking on climate change. However constitutionally there is nothing whatsoever to stop it.

    I already said if the monarch continually said very unpopular things or vetoed manifesto commitments and popular things becoming law there would be a problem.

    If the monarch says things most agree with, like on climate change, or even if they vetoed unpopular bills not in the government's manifesto, there would be no problem whatsoever. Either constitutionally or with the public
  • I basically agree with all you say here, but I don't want to make the best the enemy of the good.
    Agree with that - turbines built abroad better than no turbines at all. Its just such an obvious thing to fix yet a succession of PMs have paid no attention to it at all. If the Tories want to regain some credibility with the business community again, commit to supporting green energy. The switch to renewables should be a hugely profitable enterprise, yet all anyone can do is whine on about the costs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,804
    TOPPING said:

    Interesting that people read those books. I think we are all aware of the role that religion has played throughout history but to read a book about the existence of god is strange.

    If you believe, then you wouldn't read it because god exists and if you don't believe, then you wouldn't read it because god doesn't exist.

    A 500-page book wouldn't work in either case.
    It was an ok book but in essence what it was was him, the Prof, bringing all of his considerable powers of logic to bear on showing how something that's clearly illogical violates all the rules of logic. It was a bit gratuitous. Also not very deep since it just set the thing up on his plane and his terms and then knocked it down in about a hundred different ways when just one would have done the job, or rather that job.
  • dixiedean said:

    The entire nation was settled on a genocide, and enriched through the theft and working to death of other human beings. The rest is detail.
    My part in the thread started with me commenting on how using violence to pursue a political goal was not something alien to the US and using first the War of Independence and then the American Civil War as examples. Lincoln went to war to stop the Confederate States from leaving; the reason they wanted to leave in the first place was to preserve the practice of slavery (accurately summarised in your comment). Unless the nation you are talking about is the CSA then by the 1860s I'm not sure you can say they whole nation was settled on it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    dixiedean said:

    The entire nation was settled on a genocide, and enriched through the theft and working to death of other human beings. The rest is detail.
    And the nation most to blame for that is...?
    You have to ask, incidentally, why enslaving the natives wasn't a logical move. Ease of transport by sea vs overland? Clever marketing by the English traders?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Cookie said:

    Via quite a strange route. That's not a great circle.
    That aircraft is now at Biggin Hill. Who was on it, possibly US or UN security services?
  • On Betfair is it possible to check what commission percentage you're currently due to pay if you win a bet?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    For be it for me to argue with a classical scholar like our glorious leader but I was under the impression that it was pretty much only large scale migration and the use of foederati imported from the rest of the Empire and beyond that kept Britannia in the Empire for the last half century or more.
    Quite so. Not to mention keeping most of the empire in the empire, too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,804
    Carnyx said:

    Hmm, the Romans had a rather better organised response to mass immigration if they didn't like it. Vide C. Julius Caesar and many others, re: crossings of the Rhine and Danube. Not to mention T. Aelius Hadrianus.
    Yes, I bet they did. Can't imagine them sitting around and debating a "Carthage style points system".
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,307
    HYUFD said:

    Bagehot is merely giving his opinion of what it is, it is still Crown in Parliament on which our constitution is based and Crown in Parliament alone.

    You need both Parliament's support and the Crown's agreement to make laws.

    You can rant as much as you want and try and muzzle Prince Charles speaking on climate change. However constitutionally there is nothing whatsoever to stop it.

    I already said if the monarch continually said very unpopular things or vetoed manifesto commitments and popular things becoming law there would be a problem.

    If the monarch says things most agree with, like on climate change, or even if they vetoed unpopular bills not in the government's manifesto, there would be no problem whatsoever. Either constitutionally or with the public
    "If the monarch says things most agree with, like on climate change, or even if they vetoed unpopular bills not in the government's manifesto, there would be no problem whatsoever. Either constitutionally or with the public".

    Utterly and tragically delusional. Stick to the park benches and the allotments.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited November 2021

    On Betfair is it possible to check what commission percentage you're currently due to pay if you win a bet?

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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,939

    My part in the thread started with me commenting on how using violence to pursue a political goal was not something alien to the US and using first the War of Independence and then the American Civil War as examples. Lincoln went to war to stop the Confederate States from leaving; the reason they wanted to leave in the first place was to preserve the practice of slavery (accurately summarised in your comment). Unless the nation you are talking about is the CSA then by the 1860s I'm not sure you can say they whole nation was settled on it.
    Certainly the elimination of the native people through slaughter and starvation and habitat destruction was a widely supported goal. I think I intended a full stop then.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Yes, thank you for illustrating my point for me. Your position is exactly that of a doctor saying "this man has cancer, but at his age he is bound to pop his clogs in the not too distant future as a natural process, so let's not bother with him." If there's a difference what is it please?
    Nope my position is one of saying that this man has lung cancer and even if we cure him of that he will get it again and die of it because he refuses stop smoking. Stopping the cancer serves no purpose if the root cause is not dealt with. In this case the root cause is the fact that much of our populations live too close to sea level. Absolutely nothing we can do can stop that sea level rising at some point in the not too distant future - unless of course you are proposing we can stop the glaciation cycle - so we should be looking to move those people away from the danger zone before it is too late.

    New Orleans is a classic example although that is a case of Isostatic rather than Eustatic change. The whole basin is sinking due to the amount of sediment input. To try and combat the increased flooding they build levees which have the side effect of pushing the sediment further out into the basin which serves to actually increase the rate of basin sinking and increase the flooding risk. The correct solution is abandon New Orleans but we are so hooked on this idea that this is a solvable problem if only we take certain, utterly pointless, action that we are condemning people to more deadly floods.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Who paid for Hadrians... wall? :-)
    I'm not sure anyone did, in a sense: apart from work corvees of course (there is a stone from the Durotriges in Dorset upside down, IIRC, in a farmhouse just a few hundred yards east of where the Wall crosses the Irthing under Birdoswald). The Roman Army were there anyway so it kept the squaddies out of mischief building the frontier complex (and no doubt also painting it white: a relic of this practice is surely the British Army habit of painting paving kerbs and coal stacks white).
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,804
    Cookie said:

    Yes, the blind watchmaker is stronger on the theory - the ancestor's tale has more of a narrative.
    I preferred the latter perhaps only because I read it first. I remember I was listening to a lot of Nick Cave at the time, which seemed to be a good soundtrack to discussions of events far, far away in history.
    Murder Ballads is one of my all time fave albums. You wouldn't have thought you could make up compelling songs on the subjects he covers but he manages to.
  • dixiedean said:

    Certainly the elimination of the native people through slaughter and starvation and habitat destruction was a widely supported goal. I think I intended a full stop then.
    Oh! Well I can't disagree with you on that then. In fact, I think one of the less spoken about causes of the American Revolution in the first place was because they thought that the British were too soft on the native peoples.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, I bet they did. Can't imagine them sitting around and debating a "Carthage style points system".
    Well, you could argue that Marius & Caesar implemented a "Carthage style points system" for a couple of immigrant communities.

    - You have no points, being Gauls or Germans.
    - No points, we kill or enslave you.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    IshmaelZ said:

    And the nation most to blame for that is...?
    You have to ask, incidentally, why enslaving the natives wasn't a logical move. Ease of transport by sea vs overland? Clever marketing by the English traders?
    Natives tend to be rather good at escaping and disappearing into the local environment, which they know better than you and have friends and relatives in.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    TimT said:

    The point I am making is that going organic does not require subsidy. I have a friend locally who became the first organic tree nursery in the USA. He grows both organic and not organic trees on his farm. And he found that his organic trees are way more profitable. Yes, he can charge a premium (note, that is a market price, not a subsidy). But he also found that the practices that made the growing organic we just good practices in general, leading to healthier, faster growing trees. Even if he only charged the non-organic price for those trees grown organically, he'd be making more money than on the non-organic trees.

    People have this view that doing things in a morally or environmentally right way is necessarily more expensive and a drag on the economy. It is simply not true as a blanket statement.
    If he can do it without a subsidy or with less subsidy then that's excellent - no complaints.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Aslan said:

    Natives tend to be rather good at escaping and disappearing into the local environment, which they know better than you and have friends and relatives in.
    Yes. The answer to that in Africa was to enlist one lot of natives as allies/vendors.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,626

    I have long thought that Johnson is a stupid person's idea of what an intelligent person looks like.
    Have heard this phrase before. What is the intelligent person's idea of what an intelligent person look like?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,502

    Well, you could argue that Marius & Caesar implemented a "Carthage style points system" for a couple of immigrant communities.

    - You have no points, being Gauls or Germans.
    - No points, we kill or enslave you.
    Caesar boasted of killing 450,000, mostly women and children, who tried to cross the Rhine. I can well imagine his response to people trying to cross the Channel.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    It isn't that odd. The British crown unites the old crowns of England and Scotland. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the English crown title applies in England & Wakes, and the Scottish crown title applies in Scotland.
    Indeed, weren't there three kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland) and one Principality?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,629
    edited November 2021
    Aslan said:
    This is stuff that was in place in iirc the middle of last week.

    The temporary licenses are those that have supplied some evidence but not enough, and have been given some extra times. No change except restating the position.

    As it says "as announced on the 28 October".

    Explained here:
    https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/opinion/analysis-lost-translation-or-wilfully-deaf-ears/
  • Have heard this phrase before. What is the intelligent person's idea of what an intelligent person look like?
    What we see in the mirror? :smiley:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,384

    On Betfair is it possible to check what commission percentage you're currently due to pay if you win a bet?

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  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Nope my position is one of saying that this man has lung cancer and even if we cure him of that he will get it again and die of it because he refuses stop smoking. Stopping the cancer serves no purpose if the root cause is not dealt with. In this case the root cause is the fact that much of our populations live too close to sea level. Absolutely nothing we can do can stop that sea level rising at some point in the not too distant future - unless of course you are proposing we can stop the glaciation cycle - so we should be looking to move those people away from the danger zone before it is too late.

    New Orleans is a classic example although that is a case of Isostatic rather than Eustatic change. The whole basin is sinking due to the amount of sediment input. To try and combat the increased flooding they build levees which have the side effect of pushing the sediment further out into the basin which serves to actually increase the rate of basin sinking and increase the flooding risk. The correct solution is abandon New Orleans but we are so hooked on this idea that this is a solvable problem if only we take certain, utterly pointless, action that we are condemning people to more deadly floods.
    The pace of sea level rise makes a huge difference. And sea level rises are not the only issue with mass carbon pollution. But it is interesting how the pro-pollution types have moved from "it's definitely not happening" to "it probably isn't happening" to "maybe it's happening but we should wait for more evidence before we stop polluting" to "its so definitely happening that even if we stopped polluting it wouldn't help".
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    Sean_F said:

    Caesar boasted of killing 450,000, mostly women and children, who tried to cross the Rhine. I can well imagine his response to people trying to cross the Channel.
    Making a lot of money selling them? That was where he vast fortune from conquering Gaul came from, after all.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,384
    TimT said:

    Indeed, weren't there three kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland) and one Principality?
    I don't think Wales is technically a Principality. I think the Head of State in Wales is the Monarch of England & Wales.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    TimT said:

    Indeed, weren't there three kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland) and one Principality?
    The principality was part of the Kingdom of England so not separate.
  • Aslan said:

    The pace of sea level rise makes a huge difference. And sea level rises are not the only issue with mass carbon pollution. But it is interesting how the pro-pollution types have moved from "it's definitely not happening" to "it probably isn't happening" to "maybe it's happening but we should wait for more evidence before we stop polluting" to "its so definitely happening that even if we stopped polluting it wouldn't help".
    Is that a Yes Minister reference?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited November 2021
    JohnO said:

    "If the monarch says things most agree with, like on climate change, or even if they vetoed unpopular bills not in the government's manifesto, there would be no problem whatsoever. Either constitutionally or with the public".

    Utterly and tragically delusional. Stick to the park benches and the allotments.
    Is it? If a future government passed a deeply unpopular bill through Parliament to, say, allow development in our National Parks beyond in just exceptional circumstances which was not in its manifesto and which by then King Charles vetoed I expect he would have the full support of most of the public on that even if it annoyed senior politicians
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,257
    TimT said:

    The point I am making is that going organic does not require subsidy. I have a friend locally who became the first organic tree nursery in the USA. He grows both organic and not organic trees on his farm. And he found that his organic trees are way more profitable. Yes, he can charge a premium (note, that is a market price, not a subsidy). But he also found that the practices that made the growing organic we just good practices in general, leading to healthier, faster growing trees. Even if he only charged the non-organic price for those trees grown organically, he'd be making more money than on the non-organic trees.

    People have this view that doing things in a morally or environmentally right way is necessarily more expensive and a drag on the economy. It is simply not true as a blanket statement.
    Might be a stupid question, but if that is the case, why does he still grow non-organic trees? It would be more profitable to go all organic, even if selling some at non-organic prices?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Well, you could argue that Marius & Caesar implemented a "Carthage style points system" for a couple of immigrant communities.

    - You have no points, being Gauls or Germans.
    - No points, we kill or enslave you.
    They wouldn't call it a Carthage style system. That'd be like Ms Patel cooing approvingly about an "EU style points system". And a Greek system wouldn't do - those odd eastern types with their learning and dodgy bedtime habits - might as well call it a 'Cambridge University system'. Just plain old fashioned 'Roman system'. But if you were to invoke the way things were always done properlyl, the mos maiorum, and you went back far enough, Rome was a bunch of immigrant refugees from the east and then another bunch of assorted immigrants and criminals when the City was founded by the Twins.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,804

    I have long thought that Johnson is a stupid person's idea of what an intelligent person looks like.
    Yep, kind of that. I'd like to see him do an in-depth, unhurried interview where he demonstrates some sincerity and intellect and emotional authenticity - dropping this trivial, relentlessly facetious "persona" he has going - and until I see this, I'm afraid I'm going to have to assume he can't, since it's not there, there's nothing there.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,106
    So the clown continues to embarrass our country on the world stage.

    I do hope Big_G and his ilk are happy.

    These ilk are always the ones to watch for.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    We had a case locally where the police failed to notice the body chopped up in the bath whilst searching a 1 bedroom flat. It was only when the bits had been taken out of the bath and put in black plastic bags for collection on the curb that someone else noted that there was something rather odd about them. So missing blood stains in the boot is maybe not that surprising.
    I “liked” that post because it was interesting and informative. But I’m definitely conflicted about liking it!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    Selebian said:

    Might be a stupid question, but if that is the case, why does he still grow non-organic trees? It would be more profitable to go all organic, even if selling some at non-organic prices?
    Market segmentation/differential saturation? If you can only sell n organic trees (or the remaining punters are republicans) then any more sales are from inorganic [sic] trees.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    edited November 2021
    Carnyx said:

    They wouldn't call it a Carthage style system. That'd be like Ms Patel cooing approvingly about an "EU style points system". And a Greek system wouldn't do - those odd eastern types with their learning and dodgy bedtime habits - might as well call it a 'Cambridge University system'. Just plain old fashioned 'Roman system'. But if you were to invoke the way things were always done properlyl, the mos maiorum, and you went back far enough, Rome was a bunch of immigrant refugees from the east and then another bunch of assorted immigrants and criminals when the City was founded by the Twins.
    If you started saying stuff like that (Romans being immigrants) etc they'd be passing a Senatus consultum ultimum with your name on it, in about 10 minutes.....

    Even Cato admitted that Mos Maiorum had a wiff of bullshit to it...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    I honestly wouldn't. It looks like there are going to be streets shut off and lots of self important people posturing everywhere.
    So a bit like PB with extra traffic jams?
  • rcs1000 said:

    That's a complicated question, because commission is not charged on a per bet basis, but a per market basis. So if you win GBP10 on one bet, and lose GBP8 on another, you will only be charged commission on your GBP2 net winnings.

    Roughly speaking, if you're a small scale gambler (like most of us), you will pay 5% on commission on your winnings. Professional gamblers who actively market make can get rates as low as 2% (official), and probably close to 1% under certain circumstances.
    Thanks. I chose under My Betfair Rewards to go to the "basic plan" with 2% commission as the promotions don't seem to be much use and I've been gubbed so I'm not getting the Sportsbook promotions anyway. But if I look at a market I have a bet on it that says that gross winnings on the market (if I win) would be £9.58 but net of commission would be £9.01

    That's higher than 5% let alone 2%
  • TimT said:

    Indeed, weren't there three kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland) and one Principality?
    Yes and no. Ireland was a client state of England, so the English crown held the Irish one by right.
  • I don't know what is more staggering, the police saying this was a civil matter until the BBC put pressure on them and it was upgraded to a criminal matter, or the solicitors who have well and truly screwed up.

    A man has described his shock at returning to his house and finding it stripped of all furnishings after it was sold without his knowledge.

    Having been alerted by neighbours, the Reverend Mike Hall drove to Luton and found building work under way and a new owner who said he had bought the house.

    A BBC investigation found Mr Hall's identity had been stolen and used to sell the house and bank the proceeds.

    Police initially told him it was not fraud but are now investigating.

    Mr Hall, who was away from the property and working in north Wales, said he received a call from his neighbours on 20 August, saying that someone was in the house and all the lights were on.

    The following morning, he drove there.

    "I went to the front door, tried my key in the front door, it didn't work and a man opened the front door to me," he told BBC Radio 4's You and Yours.

    "I pushed him to one side and got in the property. I really didn't know what he was doing there.

    "The shock of seeing the house completely stripped of furniture; all furnishings, carpet, curtains - everything - was out of the property."

    The man said he was doing building work, to which Mr Hall replied: "I haven't sold the house. This is still my property."

    Mr Hall phoned the police, but the builder left and returned with the new owner's father, who said he had bought the terraced house in July, adding: "It is now my property. You are now trespassing. Get out."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-59069662
  • IanB2 said:

    So the clown continues to embarrass our country on the world stage.

    I do hope Big_G and his ilk are happy.

    These ilk are always the ones to watch for.

    How are we "embarrassed"?

    Hosting the climate conference and every speaker I saw was thanking the PM for doing so. Not seen any embarrassment.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,257
    edited November 2021
    Carnyx said:

    They wouldn't call it a Carthage style system. That'd be like Ms Patel cooing approvingly about an "EU style points system". And a Greek system wouldn't do - those odd eastern types with their learning and dodgy bedtime habits - might as well call it a 'Cambridge University system'. Just plain old fashioned 'Roman system'. But if you were to invoke the way things were always done properlyl, the mos maiorum, and you went back far enough, Rome was a bunch of immigrant refugees from the east and then another bunch of assorted immigrants and criminals when the City was founded by the Twins.
    I'd go for a binary-style points system. Being alive gets you 1 point. Understanding binary gets you 1 point. Nothing else counts. You're allowed in when you have 10 points.
  • Aslan said:

    The pace of sea level rise makes a huge difference. And sea level rises are not the only issue with mass carbon pollution. But it is interesting how the pro-pollution types have moved from "it's definitely not happening" to "it probably isn't happening" to "maybe it's happening but we should wait for more evidence before we stop polluting" to "its so definitely happening that even if we stopped polluting it wouldn't help".
    The pace of rise makes bugger all difference if you are not even going to consider moving the population. In relative terms they just drown quickly instead of slowly.

    And in case you missed it with your blinkered views, I have argued for stopping polluting including burning fossil fuels since long before global warming was even considered a mainstream issue. So your facile arguments help no one.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,782
    TimT said:

    Indeed, weren't there three kingdoms (England, Scotland and Ireland) and one Principality?

    Also, comfusingly, the Duchy of Cornwall and the Prince-Bishopric of Durham
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MattW said:

    I hope you are all up to date with the Cod War going on between the European Commission and Norway:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-norway-arctic-fishing-post-brexit-rights/

    Any update since august?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,804

    The way to excise Trumpism from the body politic is for Democrats to split the Republicans and win the support of the third of Republicans who accept the democratic process.

    If I knew how to pull off a political manoeuvre like that then I'd have been giving the opening address to COP 26, but I would guess that a strong component would have to be revulsion at the anti-democratic behaviour of the Trumpists. Though you have to add something welcoming into the mix too.
    Yes, MAGA can't win without getting votes from lots of people who KNOW it's a bad bad thing that they do that day when they give those votes. I personally, as I've posted a few times, remain confident America won't go that route. They'll find a way not to. Can't say exactly how, can only offer a hackneyed saying - Necessity is the Mother of Invention - which in this case I think will prove apposite.
  • IanB2 said:

    So the clown continues to embarrass our country on the world stage.

    I do hope Big_G and his ilk are happy.

    These ilk are always the ones to watch for.

    Boris spoke well and far better than I expected

    He did not embarrass and you are showing your political bias
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Wasn’t this just 2 more Permanent licenses and 18 more temporary ones with 55 still denied?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    HYUFD said:

    The Prince of Wales also has a house in Wales,Llwynywermod, near Llandovery in Carmarthenshire.

    Prince Charles also studied at Aberystwyth University for a period
    He did indeed. He spent half a year learning Welsh, within the Welsh-speaking Pantycelyn Hall in Aberystwyth, in advance of his investiture.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,257
    Carnyx said:

    Market segmentation/differential saturation? If you can only sell n organic trees (or the remaining punters are republicans) then any more sales are from inorganic [sic] trees.
    Yep, but that can be done at the sales desk, as required (you don't have to explicitly say this tree is not organic, you just don't label it as such and put a cheaper price on?). If organic methods give more yield, then do it all hte more efficient way and differentiate at pricing point only? I think I'm probably misunderstanding the OP.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,317

    Have heard this phrase before. What is the intelligent person's idea of what an intelligent person look like?
    Looking in the mirror probably
  • Morgan's got 9 off 20 balls.

    He should either retire, or start bloody hitting it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,384
    Selebian said:

    Might be a stupid question, but if that is the case, why does he still grow non-organic trees? It would be more profitable to go all organic, even if selling some at non-organic prices?
    I will only buy inorganic trees. Can't stand the organic ones.
  • HYUFD said:

    No, I merely stated peace in Northern Ireland will not come with direct rule from Dublin over Antrim anymore than it did with direct rule from London over Nationalist areas of NI before the GFA.
    Down is more Protestant and less Catholic than Antrim.

    2011 Census for all wards that were part of historic Antrim:

    Protestant 53.1%
    Catholic 38.7%
    Other 1.2%
    None/not stated 7.0%

    2011 Census for all wards that were part of historic Down:

    Protestant 60.3%
    Catholic 31.3%
    Other 0.9%
    None/not stated 7.5%

  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,629
    edited November 2021
    Charles said:

    Any update since august?
    Loads:

    EU has filed a lawsuit, and Norway has declared Game over.

    So it will be resurfacing sometime between December and March.

    21/9
    The EU has threatened Norway with “all necessary means” and Norway has threatened to arrest EU fishing vessels overfishing their quota around the Svalbard Zone, according to Norwegian media outlet Aftenposten.no.

    As the discord deepens between the EU and Norway over the cod quota in the Svalbard Zone both sides are refusing to alter their stance, which means they are heading for war or a stand-off.

    On Thursday, Norwegian Ministry of Fisheries issued J-165-2021: Regulation on stopping cod fishing for vessels flying the flag of Member States of the European Union (EU) in the fisheries protection zone off Svalbard in 2021.

    The regulation means that the EU fleet can continue fishing in the Svalbard Zone, but any cod caught will be deducted from the quota set aside in the Norwegian economic zone.

    According to the Ministry of Trade, Industry and Fisheries, it is in line with the Norwegian regulation of cod in the fisheries protection zone that the NØS quota can be fished at Svalbard.

    https://thefishingdaily.com/norway-fishing-industry-blog/norway-calls-time-on-eu-cod-quota-in-svalbard-zone-eu-threatens-action/

  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,815
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, MAGA can't win without getting votes from lots of people who KNOW it's a bad bad thing that they do that day when they give those votes. I personally, as I've posted a few times, remain confident America won't go that route. They'll find a way not to. Can't say exactly how, can only offer a hackneyed saying - Necessity is the Mother of Invention - which in this case I think will prove apposite.
    Yes, but the reason the hold-the-nose-but-Trump-anyway voters voted as such is because they perceived the alternative as worse. 'All' the Democrats have to do is offer a not-terrible candidate. Even someone as bad as Biden could beat Trump purely by not alienating half the country before he'd started.

    Should also be noted that the Democrats haven't been exactly flawless in accepting the democratic process when it goes against them - from allegations about Russian influence to suggestions of illegality right up to threats of insurrection.

    I agree with your optimism though. America will find a way.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,735
    edited November 2021

    I don't know what is more staggering, the police saying this was a civil matter until the BBC put pressure on them and it was upgraded to a criminal matter, or the solicitors who have well and truly screwed up.

    A man has described his shock at returning to his house and finding it stripped of all furnishings after it was sold without his knowledge.

    Having been alerted by neighbours, the Reverend Mike Hall drove to Luton and found building work under way and a new owner who said he had bought the house.

    A BBC investigation found Mr Hall's identity had been stolen and used to sell the house and bank the proceeds.

    Police initially told him it was not fraud but are now investigating.

    Mr Hall, who was away from the property and working in north Wales, said he received a call from his neighbours on 20 August, saying that someone was in the house and all the lights were on.

    The following morning, he drove there.

    "I went to the front door, tried my key in the front door, it didn't work and a man opened the front door to me," he told BBC Radio 4's You and Yours.

    "I pushed him to one side and got in the property. I really didn't know what he was doing there.

    "The shock of seeing the house completely stripped of furniture; all furnishings, carpet, curtains - everything - was out of the property."

    The man said he was doing building work, to which Mr Hall replied: "I haven't sold the house. This is still my property."

    Mr Hall phoned the police, but the builder left and returned with the new owner's father, who said he had bought the terraced house in July, adding: "It is now my property. You are now trespassing. Get out."


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-59069662

    The problem is that I don't think the solicitor screwed up - as the person would have provided everything needed to confirm his ID (driving licence photo id and various bits of paperwork bills) - now chances are the solicitor failed to match the id to the actual person but I can see ways round that as well.

    So the question comes down to what do you need to get a replacement driving licence which appears to little more than 3 years of previous addresses (which you can get from knowing the name of the owner and the fact their bought it more than 3 years ago).

    I saw the story earlier and I'm still trying to work out how you can fix it because the way the scammer pulled it off is very easy to work out, incredibly easy to pull off and very hard to pull off unless you actually went for ID cards with a backend validation system (which would never occur here for multiple reasons).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    rcs1000 said:

    I will only buy inorganic trees. Can't stand the organic ones.
    Too right. I machine all my plants from solid beryllium. Own The Libs.

    {cough, cough, cough.....}
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Selebian said:

    And here was me thinking Lord of the Isles was just a ferry!
    Nooo. Ships are female, Lady of the Isles could be a ferry.
  • Sandpit said:

    Nooo. Ships are female, Lady of the Isles could be a ferry.
    Tell that to the Duke of Normandy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,038
    edited November 2021
    JohnO said:

    One final go and that's it from me. I can only do so much for King, country, party and pb.

    So, let's take your example. Suppose this was a Tory govt with a Commons majority who passed such legislation and the King vetoed it. The Government would of course resign and its MPs and party activists would be outraged. That's TORY activists. Now, would Labour take office in these circumstances? Absolutely not, and indeed the veto would be grist to the mill of their Republicanism.

    So off we jolly well go to a general election with ALL parties (including LibDems, SNP, Greens, SDLP - I'll possibly give you the DUP) fighting it on the platform of unelected, unaccountable monarch vs Parliamentary democracy. So, whoever wins, the King loses with abdication at best and abolition altogether most likely.

    It is quite absurd that this has to be explained to you. And of course it will never, ever happen.
    If a Tory government tried to pass expanded development in National Parks it would no doubt have faced a big rebellion from its backbenchers and anger from its membership and core vote over such potential destruction of the countryside anyway. However it may have scraped it through via a whipped vote only to see it fail via King Charles' veto (it need not be a Tory government, it could equally be a future Labour government more aligned to New Labour style politics).

    Given however most likely the opposition parties would have voted against the Bill anyway, as indeed would a sizeable proportion of backbenchers on the government benches they obviously would not support abolition or abdication, indeed they would have been cheering the King on in his veto exercise, as would most of the public. That would have given Charles cover for his veto.

    If we went to a general election then most likely a new government would be elected which would dump this unpopular bill and King Charles would continue in office more popular than he has ever been.

    So it could well happen, as I have just outlined above
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Tell that to the Duke of Normandy
    Self-declaration innit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,550
    Sandpit said:

    Nooo. Ships are female, Lady of the Isles could be a ferry.
    Who dictates this? Can't ships self-identify how they want?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Selebian said:

    Might be a stupid question, but if that is the case, why does he still grow non-organic trees? It would be more profitable to go all organic, even if selling some at non-organic prices?
    Because some people will not buy organic, and he still makes a profit on the non-organic trees, albeit at smaller margins. You want to maximize total profit, not profit margin.
  • HYUFD said:

    If a Tory government tried to pass expanded development in National Parks it would no doubt have faced a big rebellion from its backbenchers and anger from its membership and core vote over such potential destruction of the countryside anyway. However it may have scraped it through via a whipped vote only to see it fail via King Charles' veto (it need not be a Tory government, it could equally be a future Labour government more aligned to New Labour style politics).

    Given however most likely the opposition parties would have voted against the Bill anyway, as indeed would a sizeable proportion of backbenchers on the government benches they obviously would not support abolition, indeed they would have been cheering the King on in his veto exercise, as would most of the public. That would have given Charles cover for his veto.

    If we went to a general election then most likely a new government would be elected which would dump this unpopular bill and King Charles would continue in office more popular than he has ever been.

    So it could well happen, as I have just outlined above
    You take 'havering' to world class levels
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,703
    edited November 2021
    HYUFD said:

    If a Tory government tried to pass expanded development in National Parks it would no doubt have faced a big rebellion from its backbenchers and anger from its membership and core vote over such potential destruction of the countryside anyway. However it may have scraped it through via a whipped vote only to see it fail via King Charles' veto (it need not be a Tory government, it could equally be a future Labour government more aligned to New Labour style politics).

    Given however most likely the opposition parties would have voted against the Bill anyway, as indeed would a sizeable proportion of backbenchers on the government benches they obviously would not support abolition or abdication, indeed they would have been cheering the King on in his veto exercise, as would most of the public. That would have given Charles cover for his veto.

    If we went to a general election then most likely a new government would be elected which would dump this unpopular bill and King Charles would continue in office more popular than he has ever been.

    So it could well happen, as I have just outlined above
    Don't you stop being you.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,664
    edited November 2021

    Who dictates this? Can't ships self-identify how they want?
    Submarines are definitely male.

    Long, hard, and full of seamen.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,714

    Oh you are a bore aren't you?

    What on earth is wrong with saying the Saudi Arabia of wind. Its quite an appropriate thing to say.
    Because it's bollocks.
    The Saudi Arabia of wind, if such a term is appropriate at all, is Chile.

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,257
    IanB2 said:

    So the clown continues to embarrass our country on the world stage.

    I do hope Big_G and his ilk are happy.

    These ilk are always the ones to watch for.

    Whenever I see 'ilk' I can't help imagining a smaller relative of elk. So I have this pleasant picture of Big_G surrounded by happy looking deer-like creatures.

    I am hoping - but not necessarily expecting - that after COP26, all the ilk, elk etc will be a bit happier.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,782
    England need to whack it. Just 4 overs left
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,714

    No wonder Biden brought US troops home from Afghanistan. They'll be needed to handle the civil war following 2024 election at this rate.
    On which side ... ?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Submarines are definitely male.

    Long, hard, and full of seaman.
    Reminds me of the terrible Herald of Free Enterprise joke, something to do with roll on, roll off and seamen.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,664
    edited November 2021
    I'm waiting for the moment when JohnO is denounced as a non Tory.

    The JohnO who has been a Tory his entire adult life and you know a Tory councillor/council leader for many years.

    John is in fact the primus inter pares of PB Tories.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    I dont think he will ever get out, he has to admit he did it to get parole, and he won't. He has been a model prisoner and has been in a open prison for a while now, which indicates that the Prison service do not see him as a threat. If he did admit it and give the location of the body then he would get released pretty quickly.

    If he didn't kill her then he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

    There is an excellent book The Nicholas Cases: Casualties of Justice by Bob Woffinden. Glyn Razzell's case is chapter 1
    Which is a terrible situation. The state can’t admit that they might occasionally have made a mistake. He can’t possibly admit to killing his wife, if in fact he didn’t.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,782
    Someone has flagged me as off topic. FOR TALKING ABOUT CRICKET. ON POLITICALBETTING

    O Tempora O Mores
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,240
    Selebian said:

    Might be a stupid question, but if that is the case, why does he still grow non-organic trees? It would be more profitable to go all organic, even if selling some at non-organic prices?
    Doesn't land have to be organic only for 3 years to get certification in the UK? In the meantime the crops would not be organic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,198
    Nigelb said:

    On which side ... ?
    The Loveless Alliance. Obviously.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045
    HYUFD said:

    Bagehot is merely giving his opinion of what it is, it is still Crown in Parliament on which our constitution is based and Crown in Parliament alone.

    You need both Parliament's support and the Crown's agreement to make laws.

    You can rant as much as you want and try and muzzle Prince Charles speaking on climate change. However constitutionally there is nothing whatsoever to stop it.

    I already said if the monarch continually said very unpopular things or vetoed manifesto commitments and popular things becoming law there would be a problem.

    If the monarch says things most agree with, like on climate change, or even if they vetoed unpopular bills not in the government's manifesto, there would be no problem whatsoever. Either constitutionally or with the public
    So the Bill of Rights, Petition of Rights, Representation of the People Acts, and Parliament Acts are nothing special? Bagehot and the written summary of Parliamentary convention is just this meaningless book?

    Did someone once tell you that "it's just 'Crown in Parliament' " and you grabbed that as a simple and straightforward thing?

    We have a constitution. It is uncodified, not unwritten. You have to go through a bunch of written documents (including the ones above).
  • Submarines are definitely male.

    Long, hard, and full of seaman.
    SeaMEN!
This discussion has been closed.