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Let’s Get This Party Started – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    So Mexicanpete who is not a LD afaik. Is just a copycat.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Sandpit said:

    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    BoZo and chums are pursuing it, aggressively.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    So Mexicanpete who is not a LD afaik. Is just a copycat.

    Sorry to be dim, but you've lost me.
  • Sandpit said:

    For Rochdake Pioneers

    Since becoming a Lib Dem your language has become really filthy. Is that the way Lib Dems talk.?

    "Fuck Brexit" was what they put on their EP manifesto after the nation voted for Brexit wasn't it?
    Less controversial than "**** business".
    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    It was an off-the-cuff response, to incessant lobbying of No.10 by a group of FBPE-types from the CBI and other such groups, during the height of the Brexit negotiations.
    No. They acted and continue to act is a way to harm as much business as possible. That business keeps having to go into Downing Street with crayons to explain what government policy means in practice and then have the same ministers blaming them for the chaos.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    BoZo and chums are pursuing it, aggressively.
    You dont know what you are talking about. Its just venom based bile.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    edited October 2021

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I can't believe the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz© has let the Nation's Permanently Angry First Wife™ upstage him here. Flying out to a fleg bedecked carrier in a COD Merlin from INS Shikra is sort of nonsense he fucking loves.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1451900208426541067

    That fucking photo. LOL.

    The only thing odd about that Tweet is the hysterical responses underneath crying about the UKs Indo Pacific tilt.
    FBPE Twitter really doesn’t like Truss - she campaigned for Remain, but accepted the result and now seeks to maximise the advantages of leaving the EU.
    ...in order to promote herself Infront of the new breed of party decision makers.
    Why shouldn’t she do that ? What is wrong with that exactly.
    Nothing at all. That is her only way up the greasy pole. I suppose I am implying it is more about pragmatism than the "seeing the light" that some suggest.
    I do not think for one moment she has had a damascene revelation and supports Brexit. She has accepted the result and gets on with it. Perhaps that’s why FBPE twitter hates her so much, she was nice and pure but has crossed to the other side.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    BoZo and chums are pursuing it, aggressively.
    You dont know what you are talking about. Its just venom based bile.
    Maybe Scott is a Farmer, or a Manufacturer, or a Haulier, or a Retailer, or in the motor industry, or from the travel sector, or from some other business that is struggling with "nothing to do with Brexit" difficulties. In that case he might just know what he is talking about.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Don’t -it the numbers through university nd encourgeva[[remticeships.

    A lot of firms should have plenty of money available to pay for apprenticeships but for reasons they just don’t use it.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    Sandpit said:

    For Rochdake Pioneers

    Since becoming a Lib Dem your language has become really filthy. Is that the way Lib Dems talk.?

    "Fuck Brexit" was what they put on their EP manifesto after the nation voted for Brexit wasn't it?
    Less controversial than "**** business".
    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    It was an off-the-cuff response, to incessant lobbying of No.10 by a group of FBPE-types from the CBI and other such groups, during the height of the Brexit negotiations.
    I sort of agree, if this was applied fairly. But:

    When it's my side, it's "taken out of context".

    When it's the side I don't like, it's "what they really think".
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    edited October 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    BoZo and chums are pursuing it, aggressively.
    You dont know what you are talking about. Its just venom based bile.
    Maybe Scott is a Farmer, or a Manufacturer, or a Haulier, or a Retailer, or in the motor industry, or from the travel sector, or from some other business that is struggling with "nothing to do with Brexit" difficulties. In that case he might just know what he is talking about.
    A lot of it is just whine. There are problems but business needs to get inventive to solve it . Creating as crisis by telling people to buy early is ridiculous... but then again, i dont have kids who want the latest gizmo...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    There are no genuine moderates in politics any more on either side of the atlantic, it is a losing strategy and has been since 2016. I think that this is one of the problems with Keir Starmer; he lacks any radical vision.

    Biden is a moderate, Trudeau is a moderate, Macron is a moderate, Merkel was and Scholz is a moderate, indeed most elected western leaders at the moment are moderates. Even Boris was a moderate compared to Corbyn
    I don't actually see it like that at all. They all have a radical edge. Looking at Trudeau for instance, he is a radical on cultural issues. So is Biden, he is sleepwalking in to a radical woke abyss, even if he doesn't realise it. Macron based his political career on setting out a radical third way, although his record is perhaps less so. Merkel is the last of the moderates, I would say; but she is on the way out.

    And Boris - can't believe you are saying that. He has just presided over the radical changes to the UK; hard Brexit , changes to state intervention in the economy unthinkable until now.


    Whata radical offerings is Starmer offering exactly?
    Isn't that the point of Starmer? At time of writing, anyway. He's offering steady, unflashy competence, with a basis of fairness and equality.
    That, of course isn't 'sexy' in political terms.
    How has he demonstrated "competence" in his time in Parliament?

    Was it the way he organised for a People's Vote only to end up voting for Boris's even harder deal?

    Was it the way he couldn't spot any antisemitism in the Labour Party until the EHRC reported? Standing with Corbyn until the election not his discriminated against colleagues?
    You know what he meant. Anyway I don't think people have much interest in competence any more, it's all about the Vision Thing.

    Both the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz and Nippy run governments that have the facade of patriotism pride and hope, but beneath that are cess pools of corruption and incompetence. And people lap it up, willing to look past the chaos and destruction of their own interests whilst cheering them on.

    As I always say, you get what you vote for and you always get the correct result. People want shit government.
    Quite reasonable for politicians to have a vision, its kind of what we are debating and going for in politics. If you know what someone's vision is, you can sort of expect how they'd handle the unforeseen etc.

    What do we get from Starmer? No vision, no competence. Just an abyss of void hoping to win by default of not being anyone else.

    If that wins its an even sadder reflection on our politics.
    Remind me. What is Johnson's "vision"? And I don't mean three word sound bites and empty platitudes.
    oven ready
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    There are problems but business needs to get inventive to solve it .

    Yes, the Government fucked business, but business needs to solve it...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Ha ha, what an idiot. I made the mistake of expecting a sensible reply.
  • malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    There are no genuine moderates in politics any more on either side of the atlantic, it is a losing strategy and has been since 2016. I think that this is one of the problems with Keir Starmer; he lacks any radical vision.

    Biden is a moderate, Trudeau is a moderate, Macron is a moderate, Merkel was and Scholz is a moderate, indeed most elected western leaders at the moment are moderates. Even Boris was a moderate compared to Corbyn
    I don't actually see it like that at all. They all have a radical edge. Looking at Trudeau for instance, he is a radical on cultural issues. So is Biden, he is sleepwalking in to a radical woke abyss, even if he doesn't realise it. Macron based his political career on setting out a radical third way, although his record is perhaps less so. Merkel is the last of the moderates, I would say; but she is on the way out.

    And Boris - can't believe you are saying that. He has just presided over the radical changes to the UK; hard Brexit , changes to state intervention in the economy unthinkable until now.


    Whata radical offerings is Starmer offering exactly?
    Isn't that the point of Starmer? At time of writing, anyway. He's offering steady, unflashy competence, with a basis of fairness and equality.
    That, of course isn't 'sexy' in political terms.
    How has he demonstrated "competence" in his time in Parliament?

    Was it the way he organised for a People's Vote only to end up voting for Boris's even harder deal?

    Was it the way he couldn't spot any antisemitism in the Labour Party until the EHRC reported? Standing with Corbyn until the election not his discriminated against colleagues?
    You know what he meant. Anyway I don't think people have much interest in competence any more, it's all about the Vision Thing.

    Both the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz and Nippy run governments that have the facade of patriotism pride and hope, but beneath that are cess pools of corruption and incompetence. And people lap it up, willing to look past the chaos and destruction of their own interests whilst cheering them on.

    As I always say, you get what you vote for and you always get the correct result. People want shit government.
    Quite reasonable for politicians to have a vision, its kind of what we are debating and going for in politics. If you know what someone's vision is, you can sort of expect how they'd handle the unforeseen etc.

    What do we get from Starmer? No vision, no competence. Just an abyss of void hoping to win by default of not being anyone else.

    If that wins its an even sadder reflection on our politics.
    Remind me. What is Johnson's "vision"? And I don't mean three word sound bites and empty platitudes.
    oven ready
    And it was! Who here hasn't bought an oven-ready meal and eaten it and told everyone how amazing the meal was and then months later decide the meal was part-baked and had cat wee in the sauce and needs to go back to the development chefs at the factory to get made differently and if they don't you will stop buying their products.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    Not really - @DavidL did not clarify the context of his comments until a later post.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Ha ha, what an idiot. I made the mistake of expecting a sensible reply.
    Tax the wealth, not graduates getting by on 25-30k a year.

    If that makes me an ‘idiot’ well, 🤷‍♂️
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    You are in favour of retrospective tax changes?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited October 2021
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    Damn right mate

    Those people who have ‘paid tax for a lifetime’ were too lazy to put in place a sustainable national insurance system, a sustainable way of funding higher education, etc.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Ha ha, what an idiot. I made the mistake of expecting a sensible reply.
    He is like a broken record, fit him better to get out and pay more tax himself rather than promoting robbing pensioners.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    BoZo and chums are pursuing it, aggressively.
    You dont know what you are talking about. Its just venom based bile.
    Maybe Scott is a Farmer, or a Manufacturer, or a Haulier, or a Retailer, or in the motor industry, or from the travel sector, or from some other business that is struggling with "nothing to do with Brexit" difficulties. In that case he might just know what he is talking about.
    I reckon he makes red passports but cant get hold of the blue/black dye.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336
    malcolmg said:

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    There are no genuine moderates in politics any more on either side of the atlantic, it is a losing strategy and has been since 2016. I think that this is one of the problems with Keir Starmer; he lacks any radical vision.

    Biden is a moderate, Trudeau is a moderate, Macron is a moderate, Merkel was and Scholz is a moderate, indeed most elected western leaders at the moment are moderates. Even Boris was a moderate compared to Corbyn
    I don't actually see it like that at all. They all have a radical edge. Looking at Trudeau for instance, he is a radical on cultural issues. So is Biden, he is sleepwalking in to a radical woke abyss, even if he doesn't realise it. Macron based his political career on setting out a radical third way, although his record is perhaps less so. Merkel is the last of the moderates, I would say; but she is on the way out.

    And Boris - can't believe you are saying that. He has just presided over the radical changes to the UK; hard Brexit , changes to state intervention in the economy unthinkable until now.


    Whata radical offerings is Starmer offering exactly?
    Isn't that the point of Starmer? At time of writing, anyway. He's offering steady, unflashy competence, with a basis of fairness and equality.
    That, of course isn't 'sexy' in political terms.
    How has he demonstrated "competence" in his time in Parliament?

    Was it the way he organised for a People's Vote only to end up voting for Boris's even harder deal?

    Was it the way he couldn't spot any antisemitism in the Labour Party until the EHRC reported? Standing with Corbyn until the election not his discriminated against colleagues?
    You know what he meant. Anyway I don't think people have much interest in competence any more, it's all about the Vision Thing.

    Both the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz and Nippy run governments that have the facade of patriotism pride and hope, but beneath that are cess pools of corruption and incompetence. And people lap it up, willing to look past the chaos and destruction of their own interests whilst cheering them on.

    As I always say, you get what you vote for and you always get the correct result. People want shit government.
    Quite reasonable for politicians to have a vision, its kind of what we are debating and going for in politics. If you know what someone's vision is, you can sort of expect how they'd handle the unforeseen etc.

    What do we get from Starmer? No vision, no competence. Just an abyss of void hoping to win by default of not being anyone else.

    If that wins its an even sadder reflection on our politics.
    Remind me. What is Johnson's "vision"? And I don't mean three word sound bites and empty platitudes.
    oven ready
    Make Johnson Richer?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    Not really - @DavidL did not clarify the context of his comments until a later post.
    You still made assumptions and jumped in with both feet
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    Scott_xP said:

    There are problems but business needs to get inventive to solve it .

    Yes, the Government fucked business, but business needs to solve it...
    There is no.point in conversing with you. You are so one eyed , discussion is not possible.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Don’t -it the numbers through university nd encourgeva[[remticeships.

    A lot of firms should have plenty of money available to pay for apprenticeships but for reasons they just don’t use it.
    I did an Apprenticeship many years ago and it was a great grounding.

    Channel too many through Uni and you end up with gaps where vocational And on the job training is necessary. Bricklaying, plumbing and so on.

    Companies in the past would rather poach staff than train them. Going forward I think that less likely and they will need apprenticeships to help plug the gaps.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    We must have run out of worthwhile topics this morning, if we are reduced to trying to work out what principles Johnson might have.
  • darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    There are no genuine moderates in politics any more on either side of the atlantic, it is a losing strategy and has been since 2016. I think that this is one of the problems with Keir Starmer; he lacks any radical vision.

    Biden is a moderate, Trudeau is a moderate, Macron is a moderate, Merkel was and Scholz is a moderate, indeed most elected western leaders at the moment are moderates. Even Boris was a moderate compared to Corbyn
    I don't actually see it like that at all. They all have a radical edge. Looking at Trudeau for instance, he is a radical on cultural issues. So is Biden, he is sleepwalking in to a radical woke abyss, even if he doesn't realise it. Macron based his political career on setting out a radical third way, although his record is perhaps less so. Merkel is the last of the moderates, I would say; but she is on the way out.

    And Boris - can't believe you are saying that. He has just presided over the radical changes to the UK; hard Brexit , changes to state intervention in the economy unthinkable until now.


    Whata radical offerings is Starmer offering exactly?
    Isn't that the point of Starmer? At time of writing, anyway. He's offering steady, unflashy competence, with a basis of fairness and equality.
    That, of course isn't 'sexy' in political terms.
    How has he demonstrated "competence" in his time in Parliament?

    Was it the way he organised for a People's Vote only to end up voting for Boris's even harder deal?

    Was it the way he couldn't spot any antisemitism in the Labour Party until the EHRC reported? Standing with Corbyn until the election not his discriminated against colleagues?
    You know what he meant. Anyway I don't think people have much interest in competence any more, it's all about the Vision Thing.

    Both the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz and Nippy run governments that have the facade of patriotism pride and hope, but beneath that are cess pools of corruption and incompetence. And people lap it up, willing to look past the chaos and destruction of their own interests whilst cheering them on.

    As I always say, you get what you vote for and you always get the correct result. People want shit government.
    Quite reasonable for politicians to have a vision, its kind of what we are debating and going for in politics. If you know what someone's vision is, you can sort of expect how they'd handle the unforeseen etc.

    What do we get from Starmer? No vision, no competence. Just an abyss of void hoping to win by default of not being anyone else.

    If that wins its an even sadder reflection on our politics.
    Remind me. What is Johnson's "vision"? And I don't mean three word sound bites and empty platitudes.
    I think he's a soft liberal "One Nation" Conservative, who believes that Britain can better run itself and that "levelling up" etc comes from that "One Nation"-ism.

    I may be wrong on that, but its the impression I get from him.
    Everyone puts their own slant on "one nation" these days to the extent it only means what the author wants it to mean.
    Which is part of BoJo's genius.

    Though if he is a liberal One Nation type, how come his Cabinet is largely staffed by social conservatives and Britannia Unchained authors?
    The nation is Britain so why shouldn't it be unchained?
  • I have long since wanted Rishi to succeed Boris and his media appearances this morning put him way ahead of any politician at this time
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Don’t -it the numbers through university nd encourgeva[[remticeships.

    A lot of firms should have plenty of money available to pay for apprenticeships but for reasons they just don’t use it.
    Back in the 70's there was quite a good national training system, the National Training Boards, but they were scrapped under the Thatcher government.
    No, it wasn't all Fatcha's fault, but that was.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Ha ha, what an idiot. I made the mistake of expecting a sensible reply.
    He is like a broken record, fit him better to get out and pay more tax himself rather than promoting robbing pensioners.
    Rishi will make sure of that, don’t worry.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,704

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Ha ha, what an idiot. I made the mistake of expecting a sensible reply.
    Tax the wealth, not graduates getting by on 25-30k a year.

    If that makes me an ‘idiot’ well, 🤷‍♂️
    Your initial reply was something about old people. Not a wealth tax. Had you suggested that initially I’d be interested in exploring that. But your initial reply was idiotic.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Ha ha, what an idiot. I made the mistake of expecting a sensible reply.
    Tax the wealth, not graduates getting by on 25-30k a year.

    If that makes me an ‘idiot’ well, 🤷‍♂️
    Your initial reply was something about old people. Not a wealth tax. Had you suggested that initially I’d be interested in exploring that. But your initial reply was idiotic.
    You chose not to see the nuance so you could go in feet first with the “LOL IDIOT” comment.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    Damn right mate

    Those people who have ‘paid tax for a lifetime’ were too lazy to put in place a sustainable national insurance system, a sustainable way of funding higher education, etc.
    I have paid loads of tax and NI for 50 years and will continue to pay tax till I die, due to hard work and no whinging and no wanting to penalise other people to keep me. Get working, when i was young and skint I did two or three jobs to get by.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    The “F… Business” quote is taken way out of context.

    BoZo and chums are pursuing it, aggressively.
    You dont know what you are talking about. Its just venom based bile.
    Maybe Scott is a Farmer, or a Manufacturer, or a Haulier, or a Retailer, or in the motor industry, or from the travel sector, or from some other business that is struggling with "nothing to do with Brexit" difficulties. In that case he might just know what he is talking about.
    I reckon he makes red passports but cant get hold of the blue/black dye.
    In that case his business is well and truly ****** by Brexit.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    Sorry Malc, often agree with you but as someone who has paid tax for a lifetime, as has his wife, I feel very sorry for my grandchildren who are paying their taxes and, on top of that, are, or will be, paying back their student fees.
    And yes of course I can, and do, give them presents.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Stocky said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    You are in favour of retrospective tax changes?
    Certainly not , we are milked more than enough as it is.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: more markets up now. I'll give them an idle browse in a little while.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    Damn right mate

    Those people who have ‘paid tax for a lifetime’ were too lazy to put in place a sustainable national insurance system, a sustainable way of funding higher education, etc.
    I have paid loads of tax and NI for 50 years and will continue to pay tax till I die, due to hard work and no whinging and no wanting to penalise other people to keep me. Get working, when i was young and skint I did two or three jobs to get by.
    You literally do nothing but whinge. Must be making up for a lifetime of apparently not whinging.
  • @Mexicanpete John Owls can tell you all about Johnson’s vision, he is here praising it every day. Not a lot of detail yet but he insists Johnson is a man of the people and a superb PM for some reason
  • darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    There are no genuine moderates in politics any more on either side of the atlantic, it is a losing strategy and has been since 2016. I think that this is one of the problems with Keir Starmer; he lacks any radical vision.

    Biden is a moderate, Trudeau is a moderate, Macron is a moderate, Merkel was and Scholz is a moderate, indeed most elected western leaders at the moment are moderates. Even Boris was a moderate compared to Corbyn
    I don't actually see it like that at all. They all have a radical edge. Looking at Trudeau for instance, he is a radical on cultural issues. So is Biden, he is sleepwalking in to a radical woke abyss, even if he doesn't realise it. Macron based his political career on setting out a radical third way, although his record is perhaps less so. Merkel is the last of the moderates, I would say; but she is on the way out.

    And Boris - can't believe you are saying that. He has just presided over the radical changes to the UK; hard Brexit , changes to state intervention in the economy unthinkable until now.


    Whata radical offerings is Starmer offering exactly?
    Isn't that the point of Starmer? At time of writing, anyway. He's offering steady, unflashy competence, with a basis of fairness and equality.
    That, of course isn't 'sexy' in political terms.
    How has he demonstrated "competence" in his time in Parliament?

    Was it the way he organised for a People's Vote only to end up voting for Boris's even harder deal?

    Was it the way he couldn't spot any antisemitism in the Labour Party until the EHRC reported? Standing with Corbyn until the election not his discriminated against colleagues?
    You know what he meant. Anyway I don't think people have much interest in competence any more, it's all about the Vision Thing.

    Both the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz and Nippy run governments that have the facade of patriotism pride and hope, but beneath that are cess pools of corruption and incompetence. And people lap it up, willing to look past the chaos and destruction of their own interests whilst cheering them on.

    As I always say, you get what you vote for and you always get the correct result. People want shit government.
    Quite reasonable for politicians to have a vision, its kind of what we are debating and going for in politics. If you know what someone's vision is, you can sort of expect how they'd handle the unforeseen etc.

    What do we get from Starmer? No vision, no competence. Just an abyss of void hoping to win by default of not being anyone else.

    If that wins its an even sadder reflection on our politics.
    Remind me. What is Johnson's "vision"? And I don't mean three word sound bites and empty platitudes.
    I think he's a soft liberal "One Nation" Conservative, who believes that Britain can better run itself and that "levelling up" etc comes from that "One Nation"-ism.

    I may be wrong on that, but its the impression I get from him.
    Everyone puts their own slant on "one nation" these days to the extent it only means what the author wants it to mean.
    Which is part of BoJo's genius.

    Though if he is a liberal One Nation type, how come his Cabinet is largely staffed by social conservatives and Britannia Unchained authors?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Nation_Conservatives_(caucus)

    Of the publicly listed members 19 One Nation Conservative members expelled from the party, and on first glance looks like none in the current cabinet.
    Because the caucus and to some extent the name was hijacked by Europhile die hards and not what it actually means.

    One Nation never originally meant integrating our nation into 27 others.
  • How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Andrew Marr was a disgrace this morning. He’s clearly desperate for another lockdown. And was pushing both Rachel and Rishi into saying that - even though neither want one and said so!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    There are no genuine moderates in politics any more on either side of the atlantic, it is a losing strategy and has been since 2016. I think that this is one of the problems with Keir Starmer; he lacks any radical vision.

    Biden is a moderate, Trudeau is a moderate, Macron is a moderate, Merkel was and Scholz is a moderate, indeed most elected western leaders at the moment are moderates. Even Boris was a moderate compared to Corbyn
    I don't actually see it like that at all. They all have a radical edge. Looking at Trudeau for instance, he is a radical on cultural issues. So is Biden, he is sleepwalking in to a radical woke abyss, even if he doesn't realise it. Macron based his political career on setting out a radical third way, although his record is perhaps less so. Merkel is the last of the moderates, I would say; but she is on the way out.

    And Boris - can't believe you are saying that. He has just presided over the radical changes to the UK; hard Brexit , changes to state intervention in the economy unthinkable until now.


    Whata radical offerings is Starmer offering exactly?
    Isn't that the point of Starmer? At time of writing, anyway. He's offering steady, unflashy competence, with a basis of fairness and equality.
    That, of course isn't 'sexy' in political terms.
    How has he demonstrated "competence" in his time in Parliament?

    Was it the way he organised for a People's Vote only to end up voting for Boris's even harder deal?

    Was it the way he couldn't spot any antisemitism in the Labour Party until the EHRC reported? Standing with Corbyn until the election not his discriminated against colleagues?
    You know what he meant. Anyway I don't think people have much interest in competence any more, it's all about the Vision Thing.

    Both the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz and Nippy run governments that have the facade of patriotism pride and hope, but beneath that are cess pools of corruption and incompetence. And people lap it up, willing to look past the chaos and destruction of their own interests whilst cheering them on.

    As I always say, you get what you vote for and you always get the correct result. People want shit government.
    Quite reasonable for politicians to have a vision, its kind of what we are debating and going for in politics. If you know what someone's vision is, you can sort of expect how they'd handle the unforeseen etc.

    What do we get from Starmer? No vision, no competence. Just an abyss of void hoping to win by default of not being anyone else.

    If that wins its an even sadder reflection on our politics.
    Remind me. What is Johnson's "vision"? And I don't mean three word sound bites and empty platitudes.
    I think he's a soft liberal "One Nation" Conservative, who believes that Britain can better run itself and that "levelling up" etc comes from that "One Nation"-ism.

    I may be wrong on that, but its the impression I get from him.
    Everyone puts their own slant on "one nation" these days to the extent it only means what the author wants it to mean.
    Which is part of BoJo's genius.

    Though if he is a liberal One Nation type, how come his Cabinet is largely staffed by social conservatives and Britannia Unchained authors?
    The nation is Britain so why shouldn't it be unchained?
    You clown there is no such nation as Britain. It is the United Kingdom which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
  • And we’re back on the wank over Rishi train.

    The reality is that his numbers are sinking into the floor and he will soon be more unpopular than BoJo and Starmer
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    When I went to University I was quite heavily funded by the taxpayer. Not only was the University paid proper fees for me by the government (as opposed to the half fees that the Scottish government now pays) but I was given a grant as well. I left University and started work broke but with no debt at all.

    The thinking at that time was that society was investing in the 10-15% who were supposedly the brightest (plus me, weirdly) and that the economy and the taxpayer would gain from their investment. I have certainly paid plenty of tax over the years but I, of course, have also gained a lot personally from that investment.

    There are really 2 questions, is this fair and is it sustainable when that 10-15% becomes more like 45%?

    Although I have gained enormously I do not think that it is fair. Why should those who don't get the privilege of going to University subsidise me? When you add on the middle class bias of those who get to University it becomes even more immoral. I get a life with better earnings, the opportunities that University brings and that whole experience and those who are not bright enough to go or simply didn't go pay for it?

    I also question if it is sustainable. From a financial point of view the graduate premium has enormously reduced. In many cases it does not exist at all. I have nieces and nephews who don't use their degrees at all and have jobs which they did not require a degree for. The balance between societal and personal gain has moved towards the latter, heavily.

    I think in these circumstances those who get the privilege of University really have to chip in more to bring this back into balance. I seriously doubt that loans are the best way to do this and I agree with you that retrospective changes on the deal are unjustifiable. But given society is not getting the deal it got with me and my cohort something has to give.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    darkage said:

    HYUFD said:

    darkage said:

    There are no genuine moderates in politics any more on either side of the atlantic, it is a losing strategy and has been since 2016. I think that this is one of the problems with Keir Starmer; he lacks any radical vision.

    Biden is a moderate, Trudeau is a moderate, Macron is a moderate, Merkel was and Scholz is a moderate, indeed most elected western leaders at the moment are moderates. Even Boris was a moderate compared to Corbyn
    I don't actually see it like that at all. They all have a radical edge. Looking at Trudeau for instance, he is a radical on cultural issues. So is Biden, he is sleepwalking in to a radical woke abyss, even if he doesn't realise it. Macron based his political career on setting out a radical third way, although his record is perhaps less so. Merkel is the last of the moderates, I would say; but she is on the way out.

    And Boris - can't believe you are saying that. He has just presided over the radical changes to the UK; hard Brexit , changes to state intervention in the economy unthinkable until now.


    Whata radical offerings is Starmer offering exactly?
    Isn't that the point of Starmer? At time of writing, anyway. He's offering steady, unflashy competence, with a basis of fairness and equality.
    That, of course isn't 'sexy' in political terms.
    How has he demonstrated "competence" in his time in Parliament?

    Was it the way he organised for a People's Vote only to end up voting for Boris's even harder deal?

    Was it the way he couldn't spot any antisemitism in the Labour Party until the EHRC reported? Standing with Corbyn until the election not his discriminated against colleagues?
    You know what he meant. Anyway I don't think people have much interest in competence any more, it's all about the Vision Thing.

    Both the Fat Lying Sack of Jizz and Nippy run governments that have the facade of patriotism pride and hope, but beneath that are cess pools of corruption and incompetence. And people lap it up, willing to look past the chaos and destruction of their own interests whilst cheering them on.

    As I always say, you get what you vote for and you always get the correct result. People want shit government.
    Quite reasonable for politicians to have a vision, its kind of what we are debating and going for in politics. If you know what someone's vision is, you can sort of expect how they'd handle the unforeseen etc.

    What do we get from Starmer? No vision, no competence. Just an abyss of void hoping to win by default of not being anyone else.

    If that wins its an even sadder reflection on our politics.
    Remind me. What is Johnson's "vision"? And I don't mean three word sound bites and empty platitudes.
    I think he's a soft liberal "One Nation" Conservative, who believes that Britain can better run itself and that "levelling up" etc comes from that "One Nation"-ism.

    I may be wrong on that, but its the impression I get from him.
    Everyone puts their own slant on "one nation" these days to the extent it only means what the author wants it to mean.
    Which is part of BoJo's genius.

    Though if he is a liberal One Nation type, how come his Cabinet is largely staffed by social conservatives and Britannia Unchained authors?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Nation_Conservatives_(caucus)

    Of the publicly listed members 19 One Nation Conservative members expelled from the party, and on first glance looks like none in the current cabinet.
    Because the caucus and to some extent the name was hijacked by Europhile die hards and not what it actually means.

    One Nation never originally meant integrating our nation into 27 others.
    The UK is made up of several nations, so "One" is already off the mark.
  • Sunak’s pre budget ritual is a twix and a sprite, he is the human equivalent of ready salted crisps
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    Damn right mate

    Those people who have ‘paid tax for a lifetime’ were too lazy to put in place a sustainable national insurance system, a sustainable way of funding higher education, etc.
    I have paid loads of tax and NI for 50 years and will continue to pay tax till I die, due to hard work and no whinging and no wanting to penalise other people to keep me. Get working, when i was young and skint I did two or three jobs to get by.
    You literally do nothing but whinge. Must be making up for a lifetime of apparently not whinging.
    so having lost the argument you resort to whinging. If you look you will see you whinge , I stated facts.
  • Andrew Marr was a disgrace this morning. He’s clearly desperate for another lockdown. And was pushing both Rachel and Rishi into saying that - even though neither want one and said so!

    He was the same as most political journalists seeking a 'gotcha' moment that did not come, but wasted a lot of time in the interview over this issue
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Scott_xP said:

    There are problems but business needs to get inventive to solve it .

    Yes, the Government fucked business, but business needs to solve it...
    There is no.point in conversing with you. You are so one eyed , discussion is not possible.
    That makes him your king tho
  • Johnsonism

    Manage the media headlines
    Put off tough decisions as long as possible
    Have a barney with the French
    Get the better of Cameron

    He is very good at it, just a shame it is popular.

  • Amazing that Tories now support a 45% tax rate on young people.

    Levelling up, not if you’re young or work
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003
    edited October 2021

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    Can you point me to a Labour policy that makes pensioners pay, and tuition fees did not apply to myself nor a large cohort of pensioners who did not go to university

    In my day it was a very small number who went on to university, but then I doubt you knew that

    And to clarify I did not go to university
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    To be honest Horse, voters of my age enjoyed a free at the point of delivery higher education and three years worth of free beer vouchers too, courtesy of HMG and the Local Authority.

    It's very much " I am on the bus, conductor please ring the bell".
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    As with private education, the fact they have gone to an English university was their choice.

    As for everything else we need a wealth tax because a 22 year old shouldn’t be paying for the social care of a 75 year old in a house worth over £200,000. There is A valuable asset that the money could be coming from
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    This is going to be an incredibly difficult budget. Although the underlying figures are much better than the OBR forecast 9 months ago they are still terrible as a consequence of Covid. Announcing the NI in advance got some of the bad news out of the way but surely not all of it. If the NHS is going to get the money it needs other areas are going to feel pain. TINA still applies.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667

    For Rochdake Pioneers

    Since becoming a Lib Dem your language has become really filthy. Is that the way Lib Dems talk.?

    "Fuck Brexit" was what they put on their EP manifesto after the nation voted for Brexit wasn't it?
    No, it was not. That is the sort of language that impressionable young Tories use. And those who work in he financial sector, of course.
  • eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    As with private education, the fact they have gone to an English university was their choice.

    As for everything else we need a wealth tax because a 22 year old shouldn’t be paying for the social care of a 75 year old in a house worth over £200,000. There is A valuable asset that the money could be coming from
    I do agree and it is overdue
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    edited October 2021

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    Sorry Malc, often agree with you but as someone who has paid tax for a lifetime, as has his wife, I feel very sorry for my grandchildren who are paying their taxes and, on top of that, are, or will be, paying back their student fees.
    And yes of course I can, and do, give them presents.
    OKC, why do people vote Tory then. It is a personal choice, no need for a great many of the people to go to university doing pointless courses that will not get them a decent job. They would be far better getting jobs and doing college courses etc.
    However to the point of Gallowgate, taxing you yet again would not help your grandchildren as it would merely mean you were unable to help them.
    The fix is to get rid of the Tories and stop the avaricious Universities robbing people. Cancel all the stupid made up courses and keep the ones that are relevant etc. More apprenticeships and part time college etc.
    Vaccuous comments by young people that pensioners should pay for them does not give me much hope for the future. Too many with little get up and go nowadays, always looking for someone else to be paying for them rather than thinking how they can improve themselves.
    PS: the interest rates are usary on those fees as well. We fees for my daughter to go through university when we had labour in power so I know all about paying them, she did several jobs to pay them off.
  • How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    To be honest Horse, voters of my age enjoyed a free at the point of delivery higher education and three years worth of free beer vouchers too, courtesy of HMG and the Local Authority.

    It's very much " I am on the bus, conductor please ring the bell".
    Hope you're well Pete.

    I am very happy to have a grown up discussion about how we fund higher education but I think it absolutely despicable that people that have graduated can have their funding situation retrospectively changed.

    If we want more nurses, sticking them with a 45% effective tax rate seems like a one way route to killing off that profession entirely
  • https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1452208625187950595

    Any Tories want to have a go at explaining why this is good politics?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: idle browsing thoughts:

    somewhat tempted to pair a Schumacher DNF with Mazepin to beat him bet. The two don't line up perfectly, but on pace the Russian lout should lose by a mile, as usual.

    Nothing else really catches my eye. Not sure if I'll make that bet pair, but something to consider.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    Raving Lunatic
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    When I went to University I was quite heavily funded by the taxpayer. Not only was the University paid proper fees for me by the government (as opposed to the half fees that the Scottish government now pays) but I was given a grant as well. I left University and started work broke but with no debt at all.

    The thinking at that time was that society was investing in the 10-15% who were supposedly the brightest (plus me, weirdly) and that the economy and the taxpayer would gain from their investment. I have certainly paid plenty of tax over the years but I, of course, have also gained a lot personally from that investment.

    There are really 2 questions, is this fair and is it sustainable when that 10-15% becomes more like 45%?

    Although I have gained enormously I do not think that it is fair. Why should those who don't get the privilege of going to University subsidise me? When you add on the middle class bias of those who get to University it becomes even more immoral. I get a life with better earnings, the opportunities that University brings and that whole experience and those who are not bright enough to go or simply didn't go pay for it?

    I also question if it is sustainable. From a financial point of view the graduate premium has enormously reduced. In many cases it does not exist at all. I have nieces and nephews who don't use their degrees at all and have jobs which they did not require a degree for. The balance between societal and personal gain has moved towards the latter, heavily.

    I think in these circumstances those who get the privilege of University really have to chip in more to bring this back into balance. I seriously doubt that loans are the best way to do this and I agree with you that retrospective changes on the deal are unjustifiable. But given society is not getting the deal it got with me and my cohort something has to give.
    Agree; we have, I think, a strange attitude to education and training in UK; perhaps it is due to having, for many years, only four or five Universities in what is now the whole country. On-site training was the norm, for both what we would now call professionals as well as tradesmen.
    Some serious thought needs to be given to system, rather than the series of quick bodges which seems at the moment to be the policy.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    Andrew Marr was a disgrace this morning. He’s clearly desperate for another lockdown. And was pushing both Rachel and Rishi into saying that - even though neither want one and said so!

    He was the same as most political journalists seeking a 'gotcha' moment that did not come, but wasted a lot of time in the interview over this issue
    Indeed. It was quite pathetic to watch, really. More heat than light. A rather pointless exercise from a public service perspective.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    To be honest Horse, voters of my age enjoyed a free at the point of delivery higher education and three years worth of free beer vouchers too, courtesy of HMG and the Local Authority.

    It's very much " I am on the bus, conductor please ring the bell".
    Hope you're well Pete.

    I am very happy to have a grown up discussion about how we fund higher education but I think it absolutely despicable that people that have graduated can have their funding situation retrospectively changed.

    If we want more nurses, sticking them with a 45% effective tax rate seems like a one way route to killing off that profession entirely
    Don't vote in crooks and comic singers then, you are getting exactly what you voted for.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sunak’s pre budget ritual is a twix and a sprite, he is the human equivalent of ready salted crisps

    Somewhat different to Ken Clarke and his large whisky in the chamber.
  • It's so nice of the Tories to re-implement SureStart, a policy which they destroyed
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793
    rcs1000 said:
    Hanging round paddocks stealing de-wormer from horses.
  • malcolmg said:

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    Raving Lunatic
    Hey Malcolm, hope you are well Sir.
  • https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1452209524203474948

    In a year's time, the Tories will I think be well behind in the polls.

    I've put some more cash on today, Labour poll lead by the end of this year, nailed on IMHO
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    As with private education, the fact they have gone to an English university was their choice.

    As for everything else we need a wealth tax because a 22 year old shouldn’t be paying for the social care of a 75 year old in a house worth over £200,000. There is A valuable asset that the money could be coming from
    Any assets are taken off you if you need social care, anything above 20 odd K and you pay for it through the nose. You lot are all desperate for other people to pay for you , it is always some other group. When you get older you will be whining that you should not pay tax on your 10 million pound house as it is not fair.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    DavidL said:

    This is going to be an incredibly difficult budget. Although the underlying figures are much better than the OBR forecast 9 months ago they are still terrible as a consequence of Covid. Announcing the NI in advance got some of the bad news out of the way but surely not all of it. If the NHS is going to get the money it needs other areas are going to feel pain. TINA still applies.
    No amount of cash will sort the NHS , it is a money pit and is badly run to say the least.
  • DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    When I went to University I was quite heavily funded by the taxpayer. Not only was the University paid proper fees for me by the government (as opposed to the half fees that the Scottish government now pays) but I was given a grant as well. I left University and started work broke but with no debt at all.

    The thinking at that time was that society was investing in the 10-15% who were supposedly the brightest (plus me, weirdly) and that the economy and the taxpayer would gain from their investment. I have certainly paid plenty of tax over the years but I, of course, have also gained a lot personally from that investment.

    There are really 2 questions, is this fair and is it sustainable when that 10-15% becomes more like 45%?

    Although I have gained enormously I do not think that it is fair. Why should those who don't get the privilege of going to University subsidise me? When you add on the middle class bias of those who get to University it becomes even more immoral. I get a life with better earnings, the opportunities that University brings and that whole experience and those who are not bright enough to go or simply didn't go pay for it?

    I also question if it is sustainable. From a financial point of view the graduate premium has enormously reduced. In many cases it does not exist at all. I have nieces and nephews who don't use their degrees at all and have jobs which they did not require a degree for. The balance between societal and personal gain has moved towards the latter, heavily.

    I think in these circumstances those who get the privilege of University really have to chip in more to bring this back into balance. I seriously doubt that loans are the best way to do this and I agree with you that retrospective changes on the deal are unjustifiable. But given society is not getting the deal it got with me and my cohort something has to give.
    Agree; we have, I think, a strange attitude to education and training in UK; perhaps it is due to having, for many years, only four or five Universities in what is now the whole country. On-site training was the norm, for both what we would now call professionals as well as tradesmen.
    Some serious thought needs to be given to system, rather than the series of quick bodges which seems at the moment to be the policy.
    An easy change is moving away from degree = 3 years+

    My degree was probably less than 1000 hours of contact time across 3 years. If I had worked as hard at uni as I did in my jobs in my mid-late twenties I could comfortably have done it in a year. Give students the option of more intensive learning over 18 months and 2 years which will allow them to get an extra 1-1.5 years earnings in.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    As with private education, the fact they have gone to an English university was their choice.

    As for everything else we need a wealth tax because a 22 year old shouldn’t be paying for the social care of a 75 year old in a house worth over £200,000. There is A valuable asset that the money could be coming from
    Agreed. The importance given to someone leaving a substantial asset to the next generation after their death because the taxpayer picked up their bills whilst they were alive has always completely baffled me. May had a half decent solution but it cost her her majority.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    To be honest Horse, voters of my age enjoyed a free at the point of delivery higher education and three years worth of free beer vouchers too, courtesy of HMG and the Local Authority.

    It's very much " I am on the bus, conductor please ring the bell".
    Pete, how many went to Uni though , only a handful. Most were out of school on a Friday and working by the Monday.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited October 2021
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    As with private education, the fact they have gone to an English university was their choice.

    As for everything else we need a wealth tax because a 22 year old shouldn’t be paying for the social care of a 75 year old in a house worth over £200,000. There is A valuable asset that the money could be coming from
    Any assets are taken off you if you need social care, anything above 20 odd K and you pay for it through the nose. You lot are all desperate for other people to pay for you , it is always some other group. When you get older you will be whining that you should not pay tax on your 10 million pound house as it is not fair.
    Only if you go into a residential home, not for care delivered in your home.

    And actually I’m perfectly happy to start paying a wealth tax now - in fact most of the working posters on this site support the idea, it’s you and a few others who don’t.
  • I work and pay taxes yet I am shafted by the supposed party of the worker, the Tory Party. Somebody will explain why this is actually a good thing though
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    When I went to University I was quite heavily funded by the taxpayer. Not only was the University paid proper fees for me by the government (as opposed to the half fees that the Scottish government now pays) but I was given a grant as well. I left University and started work broke but with no debt at all.

    The thinking at that time was that society was investing in the 10-15% who were supposedly the brightest (plus me, weirdly) and that the economy and the taxpayer would gain from their investment. I have certainly paid plenty of tax over the years but I, of course, have also gained a lot personally from that investment.

    There are really 2 questions, is this fair and is it sustainable when that 10-15% becomes more like 45%?

    Although I have gained enormously I do not think that it is fair. Why should those who don't get the privilege of going to University subsidise me? When you add on the middle class bias of those who get to University it becomes even more immoral. I get a life with better earnings, the opportunities that University brings and that whole experience and those who are not bright enough to go or simply didn't go pay for it?

    I also question if it is sustainable. From a financial point of view the graduate premium has enormously reduced. In many cases it does not exist at all. I have nieces and nephews who don't use their degrees at all and have jobs which they did not require a degree for. The balance between societal and personal gain has moved towards the latter, heavily.

    I think in these circumstances those who get the privilege of University really have to chip in more to bring this back into balance. I seriously doubt that loans are the best way to do this and I agree with you that retrospective changes on the deal are unjustifiable. But given society is not getting the deal it got with me and my cohort something has to give.
    More than 50% of the people going to Uni are wasting their time and not only their own but our money as well. Time the gravy train of the second rate Uni's was stopped. Back to being college's of Further Education for most of them would be more benficial.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    edited October 2021

    Sunak’s pre budget ritual is a twix and a sprite, he is the human equivalent of ready salted crisps

    You just know that response has been focus grouped and is utter fiction.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    Typical lazy arsehole, tax the people who have already paid their tax for a lifetime and are still paying to give to lazy jealous gits who don't want to pay for themselves.
    Sorry Malc, often agree with you but as someone who has paid tax for a lifetime, as has his wife, I feel very sorry for my grandchildren who are paying their taxes and, on top of that, are, or will be, paying back their student fees.
    And yes of course I can, and do, give them presents.
    OKC, why do people vote Tory then. It is a personal choice, no need for a great many of the people to go to university doing pointless courses that will not get them a decent job. They would be far better getting jobs and doing college courses etc.
    However to the point of Gallowgate, taxing you yet again would not help your grandchildren as it would merely mean you were unable to help them.
    The fix is to get rid of the Tories and stop the avaricious Universities robbing people. Cancel all the stupid made up courses and keep the ones that are relevant etc. More apprenticeships and part time college etc.
    Vaccuous comments by young people that pensioners should pay for them does not give me much hope for the future. Too many with little get up and go nowadays, always looking for someone else to be paying for them rather than thinking how they can improve themselves.
    PS: the interest rates are usary on those fees as well. We fees for my daughter to go through university when we had labour in power so I know all about paying them, she did several jobs to pay them off.
    In answer to your first point Malc, that's something that has puzzled me for years!

    We were fortunate in that our two sons left school at 16 and 18 and decided to go to University later, which meant at the time that they were mature students and were paid for in full., including for one an Erasmus year in Germany and for the other a similar funded one in the US. Our daughter took the work & professional exams route.
    However, all my life I've been involved with Further Education and I'm saddened by the way we seem to have settled on 'Uni or nothing'.
    Because a proper Uni course has to be more than just the technical aspects.
    Incidentally, one of my ancestors 'qualified' as a B. Med from St Andrews after passing the necessary exams, although not attending any lectures.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    Raving Lunatic
    Hey Malcolm, hope you are well Sir.
    In the pink my good man and hopefully you are too.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    DavidL said:

    He reminds me of Blair, and I mean that as a compliment. He gives his interviewer almost nowhere to go. He is so fast that he has thought through responses to every question and makes it sound obvious. I remember being infuriated when Blair did it and had fantasies that a more effective interviewer (me, in my wilder moments) could trap him and show how false it was. But it was a fantasy, he was miles ahead.

    He and his team are spinning the Budget impressively too - there's been a story every day about how he's going to give £500 million to this, £1 billion to that. The casual reader will have the impression that a really helpful budget is coming, even though the sums are generally small in Budget terms.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sunak’s pre budget ritual is a twix and a sprite, he is the human equivalent of ready salted crisps

    You just know that response has been focus grouped and is utter fiction.
    The sad truth is knowing Sunak it’s 100% accurate.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    I work and pay taxes yet I am shafted by the supposed party of the worker, the Tory Party. Somebody will explain why this is actually a good thing though

    Anyone that thinks the Tories are the party of the worker , is either having a laugh or bonkers.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,003
    edited October 2021

    malcolmg said:

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    Raving Lunatic
    Hey Malcolm, hope you are well Sir.
    I think you need a history lesson

    As I said when I left school in 1962 I did not go to university and at the time the numbers doing so were low

    I have found the data and this puts the idea pensioners had free university education is not true as the majority did not go to university

    It was Blair whose mantra of education, education, education in 1997 was responsible for the explosion in numbers and I would argue too many are going to university today who should be starting apprentices and work placement from school

    Todays pensioner's were born on or before 1955 so that is relevant to this discussion


    'In the early 1960s, only 4% of school leavers went to university, rising to around 14% by the end of the 1970s. Nowadays, more than 40% of young people start undergraduate degrees – but it comes at a cost.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,088
    Observation of the week.

    Aldi are selling "Pigs in Blankets" flavoured crisps.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    It's so nice of the Tories to re-implement SureStart, a policy which they destroyed

    Osbourne destroyed - it’s sometimes worth pointing the blame at the appropriate person.
  • malcolmg said:

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    Raving Lunatic
    Hey Malcolm, hope you are well Sir.
    I think you need a history lesson

    As I said when I left school in 1962 I did not go to university and at the time the numbers doing so were low

    I have found the data and this puts the idea pensioners had free university education is not true as the majority did not go to university

    It was Blair whose mantra of education, education, education in 1997 was responsible for the explosion in numbers and I would argue too many are going to university today who should be starting apprentices and work placement from school

    Todays pensioner's were born on or before 1955 so that is relevant to this discussion


    'In the early 1960s, only 4% of school leavers went to university, rising to around 14% by the end of the 1970s. Nowadays, more than 40% of young people start undergraduate degrees – but it comes at a cost.
    I think you need a lesson in how to use the quote button, you're a moron
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    malcolmg said:

    How can levelling up entail making poor graduates pay more for university.

    Let’s make pensioners pay, they don’t pay for anything else and get everything handed to them on a platter. Including housing prices, no tuition fees, free transport

    Raving Lunatic
    Hey Malcolm, hope you are well Sir.
    I think you need a history lesson

    As I said when I left school in 1962 I did not go to university and at the time the numbers doing so were low

    I have found the data and this puts the idea pensioners had free university education is not true as the majority did not go to university

    It was Blair whose mantra of education, education, education in 1997 was responsible for the explosion in numbers and I would argue too many are going to university today who should be starting apprentices and work placement from school

    Todays pensioner's were born on or before 1955 so that is relevant to this discussion


    'In the early 1960s, only 4% of school leavers went to university, rising to around 14% by the end of the 1970s. Nowadays, more than 40% of young people start undergraduate degrees – but it comes at a cost.
    Sure, but you didn't need to in order to be competitive with your peers in the jobs market.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    edited October 2021
    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    My son is at an English University so he is paying tuition fees actually and my daughter is doing her post graduate diploma for which she also pays.

    I agree that there is a lot more to do for younger people and that the old have been unduly favoured for political reasons. I am not saying I agree with everything he says. I am admiring the technical skills of the way that he says it and his presentation.
    LOL, bet Gallowgate cannot get his foot out of his mouth now to grovel a response to his crass assumptions.
    As with private education, the fact they have gone to an English university was their choice.

    As for everything else we need a wealth tax because a 22 year old shouldn’t be paying for the social care of a 75 year old in a house worth over £200,000. There is A valuable asset that the money could be coming from
    Any assets are taken off you if you need social care, anything above 20 odd K and you pay for it through the nose. You lot are all desperate for other people to pay for you , it is always some other group. When you get older you will be whining that you should not pay tax on your 10 million pound house as it is not fair.
    Only if you go into a residential home, not for care delivered in your home.

    And actually I’m perfectly happy to start paying a wealth tax now - in fact most of the working posters on this site support the idea, it’s you and a few others who don’t.
    That is because I am already paying a wealth tax, thousands a month and it is being pocketed by a bunch of rogues or splaffed up a wall. To also put the tin hat on it , it is also crooks and rogues Scotland did not vote for.
    PS: Good luck getting care at home, better hope you never need it or are loaded.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Taz said:

    DavidL said:

    Rishi is seriously good.

    Seriously good at shafting young people?

    Of course you in Scotland don’t pay tuition fees, so who cares right?
    So what is your solution to funding higher education given the volume of young people now channelled through university ?
    Taxing old people of course rather than retrospectively changing the loan system
    When I went to University I was quite heavily funded by the taxpayer. Not only was the University paid proper fees for me by the government (as opposed to the half fees that the Scottish government now pays) but I was given a grant as well. I left University and started work broke but with no debt at all.

    The thinking at that time was that society was investing in the 10-15% who were supposedly the brightest (plus me, weirdly) and that the economy and the taxpayer would gain from their investment. I have certainly paid plenty of tax over the years but I, of course, have also gained a lot personally from that investment.

    There are really 2 questions, is this fair and is it sustainable when that 10-15% becomes more like 45%?

    Although I have gained enormously I do not think that it is fair. Why should those who don't get the privilege of going to University subsidise me? When you add on the middle class bias of those who get to University it becomes even more immoral. I get a life with better earnings, the opportunities that University brings and that whole experience and those who are not bright enough to go or simply didn't go pay for it?

    I also question if it is sustainable. From a financial point of view the graduate premium has enormously reduced. In many cases it does not exist at all. I have nieces and nephews who don't use their degrees at all and have jobs which they did not require a degree for. The balance between societal and personal gain has moved towards the latter, heavily.

    I think in these circumstances those who get the privilege of University really have to chip in more to bring this back into balance. I seriously doubt that loans are the best way to do this and I agree with you that retrospective changes on the deal are unjustifiable. But given society is not getting the deal it got with me and my cohort something has to give.
    More than 50% of the people going to Uni are wasting their time and not only their own but our money as well. Time the gravy train of the second rate Uni's was stopped. Back to being college's of Further Education for most of them would be more benficial.
    Much better still would be high quality apprenticeships making them more employable and giving them better opportunities.

    Low quality courses at college or University seem to me to do the opposite: they encourage laziness, "that will do" and self indulgence. They do not put a premium on attendance or performance or timekeeping. They do not encourage initiative, study or self motivation. Rather than teaching the important life skills that make them employable they teach the reverse on courses that are part time at best. My niece is an undergraduate on a course that has classes 2 days a week. Why on earth is such a mickey mouse course taking 3-4 years? You could cover the content in 1.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Dura_Ace said:

    You just know that response has been focus grouped and is utter fiction.

    Polls better than "coffee from my really expensive USB powered mug"...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Sandpit said:

    Sunak’s pre budget ritual is a twix and a sprite, he is the human equivalent of ready salted crisps

    Somewhat different to Ken Clarke and his large whisky in the chamber.
    Given all the frothers on here were cooing swooning over him at the beginning , it was obvious he was guaranteed to be a complete and utter donkey in the making. As much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    "Rishi is seriously good". He is. And he's in the right job. A details man with mastery of his brief. But that doesn't mean he's ready to move up. The top job needs different skills, which as it happens BJ has. So they are complementary, a bit like Blair and Brown. But Rishi is better than Brown was as CotE.
This discussion has been closed.