How the papers are covering a very sad day in British politics – politicalbetting.com

Benpointer said:

A sad day.

MaxPB said:

Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

MrEd said:

MaxPB said:

Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.

tlg86 said:

As much as I approve of trying to encourage greater cordiality in politics, the reality is that this attack almost certainly isn’t because of people being nasty on Twitter.

bigjohnowls said:

No idea why there is discourse on here tonight.

Its a tragic day and we should think of the Amess family and friends grief and give our sympathies for that and not speculate on the killer at this time.

Plenty of time for that further down the line but not today.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

Identity politics makes this worse.

Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

Identity politics makes this worse.

Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

BlancheLivermore said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

Identity politics makes this worse.

Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

Isn't Pro life the same as anti-abortion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-Life_Action_League

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

rcs1000 said:

BlancheLivermore said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

And if you think it's bad in the UK, you should look at the US.

The fundamental problem is that people are - increasingly - only hanging out with people like themselves. They don't spend time with people who are different to them, and they therefore end up demonising them.

Identity politics makes this worse.

Transsexuals hang out with other transsexuals and convince themselves the world is out to get them.

Rural heterosexual men hang our with other rural heterosexual men, and ditto.

Anti abortion activists should spend time in rape crisis centers.

Pro life activists should spend time with families who are desperate to adopt.

We've got to a situation where we want the law and the courts to try and make everyone look like us. And it's not going to happen. We need to understand people - to empathise and to understand why people have different views to ourselves - rather than raging and demonising others.

Isn't Pro life the same as anti-abortion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-Life_Action_League

Oops. I meant "pro choice". Hence the thing about those who want to adopt.

kle4 said:

tlg86 said:

As much as I approve of trying to encourage greater cordiality in politics, the reality is that this attack almost certainly isn’t because of people being nasty on Twitter.

Probably not, but connected or not the vicious, uncompromising rhetoric, particularly prevalent in some areas but certainly stoked from all quarters, is something that is a problem and should be addressed. It won't change as a result of this - why would it, tragic deaths have not changed that in the past - but it would be nice if, even if unconnected, it caused a least a momentary reflection on it as a tangential issue.

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

MrEd said:

MaxPB said:

Still shocked. He seems like he was a really good guy. The tributes from across the political divide seem authentic.

I'm quite upset that we live in a country where elected representatives have become targets. It's wrong and those who do so should be locked up. The casual manner in which people load up an anonymous twitter account and send death threats to our MPs or abuse them out in public is quite damning of our national debate.

It's time for us to take a look at what is causing this. It goes beyond normal politics, the normalisation of people threatening those with whom they disagree with violence needs to be addressed. What conversations did we used to have with each other that we don't have any more. What has caused us to stop communicating with each other. Is it social media echo chambers? Is it time to say social media has had its day?

I'm more worried about the direction in which this country is heading than ever. It's not just this, it's everything. People are living compartmentalised lives that block out conversations they don't want to have with people they see as evil.

One of the few places that I really appreciate is PB. It is the only place on the internet that people have proper discussions with everyone across the political and cultural divide. A place where every opinion is heard and people just talk to each other. We just talk and hopefully listen. We need more of that and fewer echo chambers where people talk past each other or simply erase those views they don't like.

I agree with the last part @MaxPB (although I think the tolerance of different views by at least some posters is less than the halcyon view you portray).

However, for the rest of it, I think you are mis-analysing what has happened here. While @rcs1000 is right that all the information has not come out, the signs are pointing to an unfortunately too common event, namely a radicalised member of a certain religion deciding to kill an MP. Not a random nut job. Someone who (probably) had a very clear aim.

The question is not ‘how do we live less separate lives, can’t we connect better etc’, it’s how do we deal with a grouping of individuals - who are probably at least in their thousands and probably far more - who hate our society and are prepared to kill people to show their dislike.

The question is how do those people get there in the first place, yes I agree that there are thousands of people who hate us and will try and kill us if they get the chance. The earlier question is what leads them down this path, is it hate preachers? Why are they still preaching. Is it social media? Time to get incitement off social media or make the companies face mega fines if they can't police it. We can't just accept that people want to kill us.

There is a dangerously fine line between avoiding people preaching hate and radicalisation, and suppressing free speech.

Take Steve Bannon. In the lead up to January 6th he did a lot of things that look an awful lot like incitement to violence. If he calls for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of the people" who stole the election, how is that different from an Iman calling for people to rise up and fight the "enemies of Islam".

Where do you draw the line, and how do you stop the suppression of free speech?

MrEd said:

mwjfrome17 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

Are you saying that hate should win out then? Them and us whoever them and us is?

Sorry, I don’t understand your question. Are you saying we should let radicalists do what they want?

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.

HYUFD said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

As Isam pointed out on the previous thread on the night of Jo Cox's murder I also posted that he was reported as shouting 'Britain First.'

Yes I am as horrified by David Amess' murder as anyone else is but there is no point brushing under the carpet who the killer almost certainly was and their motive.

It is all well and good the left castigating the Far Right and their hate speech and ensuring they are cracked down on hard and rightly so, the killer of Jo Cox was sentenced to jail for a life term.

However you cannot ignore either the fact the killer of David Amess was almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant who got through the net given all the media reports we have and the involvement now of police counter terror units. It is no good liberal leftwingers like you shutting down all discussion of this and avoiding any debate of the need to tighten our borders to keep out extremists. For if we do shut down such debates then incidents such as these will happen sadly again and again and if the liberal elite will not allow even debate on it let alone action, voters will increasingly move to populist forces who will

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

We're free to speculate now, of course.

But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”

Cyclefree said:

HYUFD said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

As Isam pointed out on the previous thread on the night of Jo Cox's murder I also posted that he was reported as shouting 'Britain First.'

Yes I am as horrified by David Amess' murder as anyone else is but there is no point brushing under the carpet who the killer almost certainly was and their motive.

It is all well and good the left castigating the Far Right and their hate speech and ensuring they are cracked down on hard and rightly so, the killer of Jo Cox was sentenced to jail for a life term.

However you cannot ignore either the fact the killer of David Amess was almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant who got through the net given all the media reports we have and the involvement now of police counter terror units. It is no good liberal leftwingers like you shutting down all discussion of this and avoiding any debate of the need to tighten our borders to keep out extremists. For if we do shut down such debates then incidents such as these will happen sadly again and again and if the liberal elite will not allow even debate on it let alone action, voters will increasingly move to populist forces who will

"almost certainly a jihadi extremist immigrant" ...... and your evidence for this is what, exactly?

As for me shutting down debate on immigration or indeed Islam, you have a brass neck and a very short memory. I am one of the few header writers who has written thread headers on both of these topics as far back as 2016, precisely because they are legitimate subjects for debate.

But I have tried to do so on the basis of facts. It has nothing to do with me being some sort of "left liberal" and everything with me being a professional investigator for the best part of 4 decades and so having a rather better idea than you of what is involved in sensitive investigations, the difficulties of establishing facts quickly and the dangers of jumping to conclusions or of making assumptions.

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.

The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"

Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?

Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.

An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!

Cyclefree said:

Leon said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

How about when we know the facts about his attacker? And what led to the attack?

I was not one of those who rushed to say anything about the reasons for Jo Cox's murder. And when the Norway massacre happened and one of our well-known posters immediately assumed it was an Islamist attack I was one of the few to say it would make sense to wait until we knew the facts.

Sometimes real life brings us up short and teaches us what really matters. I have had a number of such events happen to my family lately. A brief pause before immediately making unsubstantiated political points is not - mere hours after a man has been horribly murdered - either too much to ask or hypocritical on my part.

The attacker is a young Somalian man. The investigation (per Guardian) is "being led by counter-terror police". The supposition (per Independent) is that this is a "likely Islamist attack, perhaps with mental health issues"

Are we meant to ignore all this, on a site which is dedicated to open discussion and frank debate, and timely breaking of news?

Ludicrous. You'd turn PB into some kind of mausoleum of old opinions.

An awful murder happened, which menaces the bedrock of our democracy: the work of MPs in their constituencies. It looks like it was an Islamist attack, but we really cannot be sure, yet. That's it. Denying the facts as they stand is futile and weird when the coppers themselves are discussing them in public?!

Don't talk utter rot. What the Independent says means nothing. An MP has been murdered. Of course the police will want to see whether it might be terror-related so they will bring in the specialists, not least because the MP lived and worked in 2 different locations and probably because the Essex police are not able to do such an investigation.

That of itself does not prove anything. Yet.

It is not so much not denying facts as some on here making up facts which suit the political point they want to make.

Leon said:

Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

We're free to speculate now, of course.

But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”

Good quote. Who?

George W Bush.

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

I didn’t say this at the time but thanks for your tip on Sola in Soho. What a great place. Not cheap though…

another_richard said:

Leon said:

Anyway on a happier note I am going to Frieze London tomorrow. Modern and Masters

It is the best single day in the calendar, if you like art old and new, and I DO

It was cancelled last year. Deeply sad. But now it is back

I was in the Groucho tonight with a mate and central London is ROARING. Queues for bars! Queues for restaurants! Mask wearing down to about 50% on the Tube, and non-existent elsewhere. Young Londoners have decided that Covid is Fucking Over and quite frankly I don't blame them

Did you see this by Jay Rayner ?

Looking for the finest French restaurants? Go to London, not Paris

Not only that, but the Italian restaurants are better than Rome’s. Really, why bother going abroad?

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/oct/14/looking-for-the-finest-french-restaurants-go-to-london-not-paris-jay-rayner

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

We're free to speculate now, of course.

But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”

Good quote. Who?

George W Bush.

Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

We're free to speculate now, of course.

But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”

Good quote. Who?

George W Bush.

Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris

He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.

HYUFD said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

We're free to speculate now, of course.

But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”

Good quote. Who?

George W Bush.

Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris

He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.

Iraq is now ironically a democracy with Saddam no more.

Afghanistan was still largely Taliban free when he left office and there were no further terror attacks on US soil after 9/11 on his watch.

He also avoided the collapse of the US economy in 2008.

Bush's legacy looks a lot better now than it does then given what has occurred since

HYUFD said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

We're free to speculate now, of course.

But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”

Good quote. Who?

George W Bush.

Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris

He got played by Cheney and Rummie. A disastrous presidency but probably not a bad person, just massively out of his depth, swimming with sharks. I don't see the comparison with Johnson to be honest - weirdly, I think it's insulting to both of them.

Iraq is now ironically a democracy with Saddam no more.

Afghanistan was still largely Taliban free when he left office and there were no further terror attacks on US soil after 9/11 on his watch.

He also avoided the collapse of the US economy in 2008.

Bush's legacy looks a lot better now than it does then given what has occurred since

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

rcs1000 said:

MrEd said:

Cyclefree said:

MrEd said:

Leon said:

Also worth noting that the Independent front page says the police are treating this as a "likely Islamist terror attack" - with possible mental health issues associated - so it is really a bit harsh to critique HYUFD for speculating similarly, and as to what it might imply

The Netherlands is also "securing" its democracy in a sad fashion, in the face of similar violent threats

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/28/dutch-pm-rutte-given-extra-security-after-death-threats

Depressing. But we mustn't succumb to fatalism

If @HYFUD is getting criticism, he shouldn’t because we all know where this is going - radical Islamist with the usual comments of “mental health issues’ (which, by the way, is incredibly insulting to those with true mental health issues). It was the same in the Reading attack where three gay guys were killed and the pattern of excuses seem similar - in the initial phase, blame it on mental health issues and then, only when the shock of the original attack has lessened, then admit it’s terrorism.

We don't know any of this.

A few years ago in Birmingham (I think) there was quite a big police raid on a number of houses and various Muslim men were arrested. It was said to be a big terror investigation. The men were all released, without charge, and it turned out that there was nothing to it at all - at least not publicly.

Until we know the facts it is unseemly for @HYUFD (or anyone else) to start making political points about immigration. We have no idea whether this person was born here, came here as a baby or a year ago. The facts will come out soon enough I expect.

The poor man is not even in his grave. His wife and 5 children and other family members and friends are mourning him. A bit of common decency - of which thankfully there has been plenty shown on here - is not Amess-worship or shutting down debate. It is just pausing to reflect on the very human sorrow people are feeling at the loss of someone who tried in his own way to make the world a little bit better.

I’m sorry @Cyclefree on this - and I agree with you on a lot on things - I think that’s wrong. When is appropriate? When he’s buried? Six months down the line? When?

In any event, it’s the hypocrisy that is the most galling. When jo Cox killed, there was plenty of people on here who rushed in on here to say it was about Brexit, it was right wing terrorism etc, that we should stamp down on hate etc etc who now proclaim how we must not rush to judgement, let the facts come out etc.

We're free to speculate now, of course.

But we should also acknowledge that - in quite a number of cases - the actual perpetrators / motives weren't who we initially thought.

In about 48 hours, when a lot more information will have been released, we'll have a pretty good handle of what happened, and why it happened.

It may be that he was a Jihadi (although Amess wasn't even a member of the friends of Israel or anything like that that might have brought attention to himself). It may be that the application for his wife to come join him was rejected by the Home Office, and he blamed David Amess for this. It may be that he has been in and out of mental institutions. It may even be that he was a deranged Remainer who wanted to kill a long time Eurosceptic MP. It may be that he was locally radicalised. Or it may be that he wasn't religious at all.

All that is very true and - I’ll say it in advance - that, if any of these cases are true, I was wrong and I should not have assumed as I did.

However, as said, for me it is the hypocrisy that is the most galling. The same people who rushed to pass judgement on Jo Cox’s killer right after the event are now claiming it is indecent to do in this case. Sorry, same standards should apply - either don’t speculate at all, regardless of the political circumstances, or allow people to speculate.

“Too often we judge other groups by their worst examples, while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”

Good quote. Who?

George W Bush.

Interesting. From all accounts GWB was a smart guy, consistently under-estimated by opponents as some slow old over-privileged cowpoke, allowing him to beat them time and again, A redneck version of Boris

I suspect history is going to be kinder to GWB than to Obama. It's certainly going to be kinder to him that to DJT.

History should not be kind, if only for how he let China off the hook post the massacres. Combine that with letting Saddam Hussein stay in power, and he’s looking not that great.

HYUFD said:

'The murder of Sir David Amess in #Essex earlier today has now been declared as a terrorist incident, and the Met's Counter Terrorism Command will lead the investigation.'

https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1449150762332925952?s=20