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Further signs that the GOP will steal the 2024 election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 10 in General
Further signs that the GOP will steal the 2024 election – politicalbetting.com

"Of the 15 Republican candidates for secretary of state in 5 battleground states — AZ, GQ, WI, MI, NV–10 have declared the 2020 election stolen or called for results to be invalidated or further investigated. Only 2 of the 9 interviewed said Biden won."https://t.co/BF0Kj0xENT

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • The strategists at Mercedes = Luca Badoer.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,965
    "it is incontrovertible to me that betting on the main 2024 Presidential market should be avoided because winning bets will become losers due to the shenanigans of the GOP infrastructure."

    No, no, no, back Trump! It is also a life, pension, asset hedge as the end of US democracy is unlikely to be much use for any of those.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,508
    Naughtiness knows no bounds
  • America is a sham democracy shock.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,584
    edited October 10
    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,282
    edited October 10
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    On Topic Man who has never voted Labour in his life thinks Labour leader that in 2017 produced the biggest increase in vote share since WW2 left a toxic legacy

    His toxic divisive useless nonentity of a replacement is blame free

    As I say man who knows nothing about what inspires people to vote Labour

    You keep repeating this bollox, but bollox it is. Corbyn fought two general elections, and Labour recorded two of its lowest ever seat totals.*

    * Explanatory Note: In the UK, parties can form governments if they win a majority of the seats. Corbyn’s Labour won 262 seats in 2017, and a lot fewer in 2019. At both elections the winning post was 326 seats.
    It is amazing though, that even in the 2019 GE, Corbyn’s Labour got a better vote share than Miliband in 2015 and Brown in 2010.

    If you ignore 2017, & look at the vote share changes from 2015 to 2019, all that seems to have happened is UKIP went Tory, and some Tory Remainers went Lib Dem, despite all the loud noise in between

    Amazing, but irrelevant.
    Why is it irrelevant? Vote shares mean something, and it’s worth knowing, or at least trying to figure out, where 12.6% of voters, whose party has more or less given up, from 2015 went.

    If Tory 2019 is (Tory 2015 + UKIP 2015) - 4-5% to the LDs, where does that leave Labour?

    Flat from 2010 to 2019. One can hardly blame Corbyn for UKIPs voters going Tory, when his Brexit plan was a second referendum and the Tories was getting it done
    Corbynites continually cite their vote share and increase in its %, while completely ignoring what is actually required to win an election - and by which measure they fell lamentably short in 2017.
    Never mind that, I am talking about the fact that 2010, 2015,and 2019 were very similar scores for Labour, with three different leaders. 2017 was a peculiar GE that can pretty much be written off, analytically. But the fact remains Corbyn (32.1%) bettered EdM (30.4%),and Gordo's (29%) efforts in his bad GE, and the reason the seat tally was so low was UKIP/BXP standing aside and the Tories gobbling up their vote
    You go wrong when you start claiming Starmer's Remainerdom is a reason why he's struggling - it's the Covid blot out effect plus a lack of charisma cf Perfidious Posh - but I broadly agree with your take on this.

    Both 17 and 19 were Brexit elections but were impacted in opposite fashion. In 17, Labour were a receptacle for Remainers to vote against the hard Brexit Mrs May seemed intent upon. They didn't want to give her the majority she said she needed to drive it through. Upshot - the result flattered Corbyn. By 19, a significant proportion of these voters were sick & tired of the Brexit wars and rather than prolonging the agony with another Referendum wanted it to be over. Thus the power of the Oven Ready Deal and Get Brexit Done. Upshot - the result flattered Johnson.

    So what I'm saying is Jeremy Corbyn had less to do with Labour's good result at GE17 than his supporters like to make out, and he had less to do with their terrible result at GE19 than his detractors like to make out. Bias drives the analysis of both camps. The bigger and deeper reason for the overperformance in 17 and the underperformance in 19 is Brexit.

    The interesting question now - indeed the million dollar question when it comes to punditing UK politics - is what impact will Brexit have on the next election?
    But the reason Boris won such a majority in 2019, the reason the Tories floor seems to be 39/40 rather than 30/31 as it was in 2015, is UKIP voters have pretty much all gone Tory - and the reason for that is Labour demanded a second referendum in 2019... and their shadow Brexit Sec, who said Labour would be campaigning for Remain if they managed to swindle another go, was Sir Keir. So why would the deciding factor, the 2015 Kippers, go Labour now he is their leader?
    Ukip voters were all nationalistic hard leavers. They aren't in play for a progressive party of the left.
    All of them? Every single one of them? Did you survey them all?

    Interesting theory except many 2015 UKIP voters were 2010 Lib Dem voters.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,481

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    On Topic Man who has never voted Labour in his life thinks Labour leader that in 2017 produced the biggest increase in vote share since WW2 left a toxic legacy

    His toxic divisive useless nonentity of a replacement is blame free

    As I say man who knows nothing about what inspires people to vote Labour

    You keep repeating this bollox, but bollox it is. Corbyn fought two general elections, and Labour recorded two of its lowest ever seat totals.*

    * Explanatory Note: In the UK, parties can form governments if they win a majority of the seats. Corbyn’s Labour won 262 seats in 2017, and a lot fewer in 2019. At both elections the winning post was 326 seats.
    It is amazing though, that even in the 2019 GE, Corbyn’s Labour got a better vote share than Miliband in 2015 and Brown in 2010.

    If you ignore 2017, & look at the vote share changes from 2015 to 2019, all that seems to have happened is UKIP went Tory, and some Tory Remainers went Lib Dem, despite all the loud noise in between

    Amazing, but irrelevant.
    Why is it irrelevant? Vote shares mean something, and it’s worth knowing, or at least trying to figure out, where 12.6% of voters, whose party has more or less given up, from 2015 went.

    If Tory 2019 is (Tory 2015 + UKIP 2015) - 4-5% to the LDs, where does that leave Labour?

    Flat from 2010 to 2019. One can hardly blame Corbyn for UKIPs voters going Tory, when his Brexit plan was a second referendum and the Tories was getting it done
    Corbynites continually cite their vote share and increase in its %, while completely ignoring what is actually required to win an election - and by which measure they fell lamentably short in 2017.
    Never mind that, I am talking about the fact that 2010, 2015,and 2019 were very similar scores for Labour, with three different leaders. 2017 was a peculiar GE that can pretty much be written off, analytically. But the fact remains Corbyn (32.1%) bettered EdM (30.4%),and Gordo's (29%) efforts in his bad GE, and the reason the seat tally was so low was UKIP/BXP standing aside and the Tories gobbling up their vote
    You go wrong when you start claiming Starmer's Remainerdom is a reason why he's struggling - it's the Covid blot out effect plus a lack of charisma cf Perfidious Posh - but I broadly agree with your take on this.

    Both 17 and 19 were Brexit elections but were impacted in opposite fashion. In 17, Labour were a receptacle for Remainers to vote against the hard Brexit Mrs May seemed intent upon. They didn't want to give her the majority she said she needed to drive it through. Upshot - the result flattered Corbyn. By 19, a significant proportion of these voters were sick & tired of the Brexit wars and rather than prolonging the agony with another Referendum wanted it to be over. Thus the power of the Oven Ready Deal and Get Brexit Done. Upshot - the result flattered Johnson.

    So what I'm saying is Jeremy Corbyn had less to do with Labour's good result at GE17 than his supporters like to make out, and he had less to do with their terrible result at GE19 than his detractors like to make out. Bias drives the analysis of both camps. The bigger and deeper reason for the overperformance in 17 and the underperformance in 19 is Brexit.

    The interesting question now - indeed the million dollar question when it comes to punditing UK politics - is what impact will Brexit have on the next election?
    But the reason Boris won such a majority in 2019, the reason the Tories floor seems to be 39/40 rather than 30/31 as it was in 2015, is UKIP voters have pretty much all gone Tory - and the reason for that is Labour demanded a second referendum in 2019... and their shadow Brexit Sec, who said Labour would be campaigning for Remain if they managed to swindle another go, was Sir Keir. So why would the deciding factor, the 2015 Kippers, go Labour now he is their leader?
    Ukip voters were all nationalistic hard leavers. They aren't in play for a progressive party of the left.
    All of them? Every single one of them? Did you survey them all?

    Interesting theory except many if not most 2015 UKIP voters were 2010 Lib Dem voters.
    Most of them were the kind of low paid, low educational achievement types that Labour was set up to give a voice to
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,534
    Important header.

    The Dems need to wake up NOW! They have the power to try and stop all this while they have the votes in Congress. Reform the election process. Voter rights. Massively important to give statehood to DC. And so on.

    This will be the last election in America in our lifetimes if they don't stop Trump "winning" in 2024.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,468
    edited October 10
    Legislatures and Governors are all elected too (Secretaries of State appointed by the Governor).

    All have to agree to measures restricting ballot access and at the moment only 23 states out of 50 have both a GOP governor and GOP controlled legislature, nowhere near enough to win the EC by themselves in 2024 and even fewer than the 25 states Trump won in 2020 when he lost to Biden.

    If the GOP win enough states to control ballot access then the mood is likely heading for a GOP president again anyway
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,468

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    On Topic Man who has never voted Labour in his life thinks Labour leader that in 2017 produced the biggest increase in vote share since WW2 left a toxic legacy

    His toxic divisive useless nonentity of a replacement is blame free

    As I say man who knows nothing about what inspires people to vote Labour

    You keep repeating this bollox, but bollox it is. Corbyn fought two general elections, and Labour recorded two of its lowest ever seat totals.*

    * Explanatory Note: In the UK, parties can form governments if they win a majority of the seats. Corbyn’s Labour won 262 seats in 2017, and a lot fewer in 2019. At both elections the winning post was 326 seats.
    It is amazing though, that even in the 2019 GE, Corbyn’s Labour got a better vote share than Miliband in 2015 and Brown in 2010.

    If you ignore 2017, & look at the vote share changes from 2015 to 2019, all that seems to have happened is UKIP went Tory, and some Tory Remainers went Lib Dem, despite all the loud noise in between

    Amazing, but irrelevant.
    Why is it irrelevant? Vote shares mean something, and it’s worth knowing, or at least trying to figure out, where 12.6% of voters, whose party has more or less given up, from 2015 went.

    If Tory 2019 is (Tory 2015 + UKIP 2015) - 4-5% to the LDs, where does that leave Labour?

    Flat from 2010 to 2019. One can hardly blame Corbyn for UKIPs voters going Tory, when his Brexit plan was a second referendum and the Tories was getting it done
    Corbynites continually cite their vote share and increase in its %, while completely ignoring what is actually required to win an election - and by which measure they fell lamentably short in 2017.
    Never mind that, I am talking about the fact that 2010, 2015,and 2019 were very similar scores for Labour, with three different leaders. 2017 was a peculiar GE that can pretty much be written off, analytically. But the fact remains Corbyn (32.1%) bettered EdM (30.4%),and Gordo's (29%) efforts in his bad GE, and the reason the seat tally was so low was UKIP/BXP standing aside and the Tories gobbling up their vote
    You go wrong when you start claiming Starmer's Remainerdom is a reason why he's struggling - it's the Covid blot out effect plus a lack of charisma cf Perfidious Posh - but I broadly agree with your take on this.

    Both 17 and 19 were Brexit elections but were impacted in opposite fashion. In 17, Labour were a receptacle for Remainers to vote against the hard Brexit Mrs May seemed intent upon. They didn't want to give her the majority she said she needed to drive it through. Upshot - the result flattered Corbyn. By 19, a significant proportion of these voters were sick & tired of the Brexit wars and rather than prolonging the agony with another Referendum wanted it to be over. Thus the power of the Oven Ready Deal and Get Brexit Done. Upshot - the result flattered Johnson.

    So what I'm saying is Jeremy Corbyn had less to do with Labour's good result at GE17 than his supporters like to make out, and he had less to do with their terrible result at GE19 than his detractors like to make out. Bias drives the analysis of both camps. The bigger and deeper reason for the overperformance in 17 and the underperformance in 19 is Brexit.

    The interesting question now - indeed the million dollar question when it comes to punditing UK politics - is what impact will Brexit have on the next election?
    But the reason Boris won such a majority in 2019, the reason the Tories floor seems to be 39/40 rather than 30/31 as it was in 2015, is UKIP voters have pretty much all gone Tory - and the reason for that is Labour demanded a second referendum in 2019... and their shadow Brexit Sec, who said Labour would be campaigning for Remain if they managed to swindle another go, was Sir Keir. So why would the deciding factor, the 2015 Kippers, go Labour now he is their leader?
    Ukip voters were all nationalistic hard leavers. They aren't in play for a progressive party of the left.
    All of them? Every single one of them? Did you survey them all?

    Interesting theory except many 2015 UKIP voters were 2010 Lib Dem voters.
    Most of them were 2010 Tory or Brown Labour voters, 2020 LD voters tended to go to Cameron in 2015 or Ed Miliband if they did not vote LD again
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,965

    Important header.

    The Dems need to wake up NOW! They have the power to try and stop all this while they have the votes in Congress. Reform the election process. Voter rights. Massively important to give statehood to DC. And so on.

    This will be the last election in America in our lifetimes if they don't stop Trump "winning" in 2024.

    Putin et al have regular elections. It won't be the last election ever, just opponents will be locked up, intimidated or worse.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,403
    edited October 10

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    On Topic Man who has never voted Labour in his life thinks Labour leader that in 2017 produced the biggest increase in vote share since WW2 left a toxic legacy

    His toxic divisive useless nonentity of a replacement is blame free

    As I say man who knows nothing about what inspires people to vote Labour

    You keep repeating this bollox, but bollox it is. Corbyn fought two general elections, and Labour recorded two of its lowest ever seat totals.*

    * Explanatory Note: In the UK, parties can form governments if they win a majority of the seats. Corbyn’s Labour won 262 seats in 2017, and a lot fewer in 2019. At both elections the winning post was 326 seats.
    It is amazing though, that even in the 2019 GE, Corbyn’s Labour got a better vote share than Miliband in 2015 and Brown in 2010.

    If you ignore 2017, & look at the vote share changes from 2015 to 2019, all that seems to have happened is UKIP went Tory, and some Tory Remainers went Lib Dem, despite all the loud noise in between

    Amazing, but irrelevant.
    Why is it irrelevant? Vote shares mean something, and it’s worth knowing, or at least trying to figure out, where 12.6% of voters, whose party has more or less given up, from 2015 went.

    If Tory 2019 is (Tory 2015 + UKIP 2015) - 4-5% to the LDs, where does that leave Labour?

    Flat from 2010 to 2019. One can hardly blame Corbyn for UKIPs voters going Tory, when his Brexit plan was a second referendum and the Tories was getting it done
    Corbynites continually cite their vote share and increase in its %, while completely ignoring what is actually required to win an election - and by which measure they fell lamentably short in 2017.
    Never mind that, I am talking about the fact that 2010, 2015,and 2019 were very similar scores for Labour, with three different leaders. 2017 was a peculiar GE that can pretty much be written off, analytically. But the fact remains Corbyn (32.1%) bettered EdM (30.4%),and Gordo's (29%) efforts in his bad GE, and the reason the seat tally was so low was UKIP/BXP standing aside and the Tories gobbling up their vote
    You go wrong when you start claiming Starmer's Remainerdom is a reason why he's struggling - it's the Covid blot out effect plus a lack of charisma cf Perfidious Posh - but I broadly agree with your take on this.

    Both 17 and 19 were Brexit elections but were impacted in opposite fashion. In 17, Labour were a receptacle for Remainers to vote against the hard Brexit Mrs May seemed intent upon. They didn't want to give her the majority she said she needed to drive it through. Upshot - the result flattered Corbyn. By 19, a significant proportion of these voters were sick & tired of the Brexit wars and rather than prolonging the agony with another Referendum wanted it to be over. Thus the power of the Oven Ready Deal and Get Brexit Done. Upshot - the result flattered Johnson.

    So what I'm saying is Jeremy Corbyn had less to do with Labour's good result at GE17 than his supporters like to make out, and he had less to do with their terrible result at GE19 than his detractors like to make out. Bias drives the analysis of both camps. The bigger and deeper reason for the overperformance in 17 and the underperformance in 19 is Brexit.

    The interesting question now - indeed the million dollar question when it comes to punditing UK politics - is what impact will Brexit have on the next election?
    But the reason Boris won such a majority in 2019, the reason the Tories floor seems to be 39/40 rather than 30/31 as it was in 2015, is UKIP voters have pretty much all gone Tory - and the reason for that is Labour demanded a second referendum in 2019... and their shadow Brexit Sec, who said Labour would be campaigning for Remain if they managed to swindle another go, was Sir Keir. So why would the deciding factor, the 2015 Kippers, go Labour now he is their leader?
    Ukip voters were all nationalistic hard leavers. They aren't in play for a progressive party of the left.
    All of them? Every single one of them? Did you survey them all?

    Interesting theory except many 2015 UKIP voters were 2010 Lib Dem voters.
    I'm using "all" in its looser "the vast majority of" sense there. Bit of shorthand. Much better for fingertips and keyboard - not to mention thread quality - to keep my posts as compact as possible. "All" will applaud me for this, I think.
  • Important header.

    The Dems need to wake up NOW! They have the power to try and stop all this while they have the votes in Congress. Reform the election process. Voter rights. Massively important to give statehood to DC. And so on.

    This will be the last election in America in our lifetimes if they don't stop Trump "winning" in 2024.

    The rest of the world can build a wall and sanction Gilead if that happens.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,813
    "Priti Patel 'believes the Met is rotten from top to bottom' and 'is absolutely the worst' of Britain's police forces 'after she clashed with commissioner Cressida Dick over Sarah Everard case'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10077373/Priti-Patel-believes-Met-rotten-bottom-clashing-Cressida-Dick.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,534
    HYUFD said:

    Legislatures and Governors are all elected too (Secretaries of State appointed by the Governor).

    All have to agree to measures restricting ballot access and at the moment only 23 states out of 50 have both a GOP governor and GOP controlled legislature, nowhere near enough to win the EC by themselves in 2024 and even fewer than the 25 states Trump won in 2020 when he lost to Biden.

    If the GOP win enough states to control ballot access then the mood is likely heading for a GOP president again anyway

    But the GOP president wont be a GOP president in any meaningful sense. It will be Trump and the party will have become a demagogue cult worshipping outfit of near and actual criminals who don't believe a word of the founding principles of the US.

    I expect CA at the very least to exit.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691

    HYUFD said:

    Legislatures and Governors are all elected too (Secretaries of State appointed by the Governor).

    All have to agree to measures restricting ballot access and at the moment only 23 states out of 50 have both a GOP governor and GOP controlled legislature, nowhere near enough to win the EC by themselves in 2024 and even fewer than the 25 states Trump won in 2020 when he lost to Biden.

    If the GOP win enough states to control ballot access then the mood is likely heading for a GOP president again anyway

    But the GOP president wont be a GOP president in any meaningful sense. It will be Trump and the party will have become a demagogue cult worshipping outfit of near and actual criminals who don't believe a word of the founding principles of the US.

    I expect CA at the very least to exit.
    In which case, the Inland Counties of CA will stay and it will be a coastal enclave stretching from LA County to the Bay area (San Diego would probably remain in the US in this scenario).

    Be interesting to see how the wokesters and Tech billionaires protect themselves from their poorer citizens if that came to pass. Can't imagine there will be many Police and / or Army units willing to protect them (or stay).
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868
    Well if I'm reading this correctly we get in 2022 Senate elections in Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_Senate_elections

    Which should give an idea as to what might happen in 2024.
  • Andy_JS said:

    "Priti Patel 'believes the Met is rotten from top to bottom' and 'is absolutely the worst' of Britain's police forces 'after she clashed with commissioner Cressida Dick over Sarah Everard case'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10077373/Priti-Patel-believes-Met-rotten-bottom-clashing-Cressida-Dick.html

    Priti not completely shit then. Surprising.
  • MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,279
    edited October 10
    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,801
    The Dave Chappelle special is absolutely brilliant.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,910
    It'll be funny if the UK has to tough it out in AUKUS and NATO after the US goes fascist and/or falls apart.
  • Andy_JS said:

    "Priti Patel 'believes the Met is rotten from top to bottom' and 'is absolutely the worst' of Britain's police forces 'after she clashed with commissioner Cressida Dick over Sarah Everard case'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10077373/Priti-Patel-believes-Met-rotten-bottom-clashing-Cressida-Dick.html

    Priti not completely shit then. Surprising.
    She was so very, very, angry, she only went and sanctioned an extension to Cressida's contract.
    That was before Couzens trial

    I doubt she would today
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
    Even me, as I did at the time.

    But it plays both ways. Surely you will be happy to accept that the story we all heard that Trump won in 2016 because Russia rigged the election and therefore his election was illegitimate was a crock of horseshit?

    Or maybe not.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691

    Andy_JS said:

    "Priti Patel 'believes the Met is rotten from top to bottom' and 'is absolutely the worst' of Britain's police forces 'after she clashed with commissioner Cressida Dick over Sarah Everard case'"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10077373/Priti-Patel-believes-Met-rotten-bottom-clashing-Cressida-Dick.html

    Priti not completely shit then. Surprising.
    She was so very, very, angry. So much so, she only went and sanctioned an extension to Cressida's contract.
    Yes, something not right there in that story...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,698
    Dura_Ace said:

    It'll be funny if the UK has to tough it out in AUKUS and NATO after the US goes fascist and/or falls apart.

    Funny wouldn't be my first word of choice. Maybe apocalyptic?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,965
    edited October 10

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    How did it get here? Too much money in politics, too partisan, social media, gap between rich and poor.

    It can happen in the UK too, it probably won't but it can.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,178
    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    Perhaps if no Republicans had tried to steal the 2020 election, such claims wouldn't be taken seriously.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,698
    Alistair said:

    Whataboutery when one side supported a coup attempt is weak sauce.

    Trump wanted Hillary locked up for insecure email use. No one seems anything like as concerned that Trump incited insurrection. An insurrection attempt that resulted in five fatalities.

    Unreal!
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,708
    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,488
    O/T but this may interest some of us especially @Theuniondivvie - Messrs Gillespie and Welsh on life, the universe, music and the Weegie Tenement.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/oct/10/bobby-gillespie-irvine-welsh-memoirs-tenement-kid
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,403
    If Piers Corbyn formed a political party here and its foundational principle was that the GE19 Conservative win was fraudulent, the true winner being Labour under his kid brother, would that party be allowed to stand at the next general election?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
    Even me, as I did at the time.

    But it plays both ways. Surely you will be happy to accept that the story we all heard that Trump won in 2016 because Russia rigged the election and therefore his election was illegitimate was a crock of horseshit?

    Or maybe not.
    The Democrats conceded that election within hours.

    The reality is Russia did influence the election, as they do most Western elections, and that makes them all less legitimate. Acknowledging that is completely different from trying to stop Trump taking power by not conceding. Which is then completely different from staging an armed coup and encouraging your fans to behead Mike Pence.

    Searching for false equivalences seems to be your special subject!
    Turning a blind eye is obviously yours :)

    Here is one example. Hilary in 2019 stating that "Trump knows he's an illegitimate President"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/hillary-clinton-trump-impeachment-illegitimate-president-2016-election-cbs-a9122986.html

    But, of course, that is not undermining democracy or trending on dangerous grounds. Oh no!!! It's ok 'cos it's Trump.

    The rank hypocrisy is truly staggering to see. I commend you on your mental gymnastics.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
    Second republic?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,182

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    How did it get here? Too much money in politics, too partisan, social media, gap between rich and poor.

    It can happen in the UK too, it probably won't but it can.
    IMO it's the money. Everyone makes too much money from the election: even the media, with the massive advertising spends. This pollutes the entire process.

    Although potentially stretched at times, the electoral spending limits here in the UK are a brilliant aspect of our system. The money in the US system totally corrupts it, and is at the heart of all the other electoral problems they have.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,910

    Dura_Ace said:

    It'll be funny if the UK has to tough it out in AUKUS and NATO after the US goes fascist and/or falls apart.

    Funny wouldn't be my first word of choice. Maybe apocalyptic?
    Most of the world, especially the UK, EU and Australia, are in wilful denial about what's happening and going to happen in the US because the reality is too awful to contemplate.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,178

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
    I can't and, for the reason that mentioned below. At the end of the day, wealthy liberals - who are going to be the ones who will have to get behind this idea to make it a reality - know that breaking away would essentially mean they couldn't rely on the force of the state to protect them from the crowds. California is already seeing an exodus of police officers going to places like Idaho. It isn't going to happen.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,697
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
    Even me, as I did at the time.

    But it plays both ways. Surely you will be happy to accept that the story we all heard that Trump won in 2016 because Russia rigged the election and therefore his election was illegitimate was a crock of horseshit?

    Or maybe not.
    The Democrats conceded that election within hours.

    The reality is Russia did influence the election, as they do most Western elections, and that makes them all less legitimate. Acknowledging that is completely different from trying to stop Trump taking power by not conceding. Which is then completely different from staging an armed coup and encouraging your fans to behead Mike Pence.

    Searching for false equivalences seems to be your special subject!
    Turning a blind eye is obviously yours :)

    Here is one example. Hilary in 2019 stating that "Trump knows he's an illegitimate President"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/hillary-clinton-trump-impeachment-illegitimate-president-2016-election-cbs-a9122986.html

    But, of course, that is not undermining democracy or trending on dangerous grounds. Oh no!!! It's ok 'cos it's Trump.

    The rank hypocrisy is truly staggering to see. I commend you on your mental gymnastics.
    What is your point here, that we think Trump is a uniquely loathesome human being whose actions are to be judged without the benefit of the doubt which one might reasonably extend to pretty much anyone else, including his political opponents, but we aren't prepared to admit it? I am. I just did.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,178
    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    Read my post again. You'll find it applies much more generally that your defensive response implies.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    Missed the coup attempt by the Democrats.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,481
    edited October 10
    MaxPB said:

    The Dave Chappelle special is absolutely brilliant.

    Never heard of him - read two scathing reviews of his routine in The Guardian and The Independent, then looked him up on wiki and found out he was a Muslim convert. Suppose the G and i thought it was immaterial to his material

    https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/09/dave-chappelle-letter-trans-comedian-netflix


    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/comedy/features/dave-chappelle-netflix-closer-trans-b1934860.html
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,965
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
    Even me, as I did at the time.

    But it plays both ways. Surely you will be happy to accept that the story we all heard that Trump won in 2016 because Russia rigged the election and therefore his election was illegitimate was a crock of horseshit?

    Or maybe not.
    The Democrats conceded that election within hours.

    The reality is Russia did influence the election, as they do most Western elections, and that makes them all less legitimate. Acknowledging that is completely different from trying to stop Trump taking power by not conceding. Which is then completely different from staging an armed coup and encouraging your fans to behead Mike Pence.

    Searching for false equivalences seems to be your special subject!
    Turning a blind eye is obviously yours :)

    Here is one example. Hilary in 2019 stating that "Trump knows he's an illegitimate President"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/hillary-clinton-trump-impeachment-illegitimate-president-2016-election-cbs-a9122986.html

    But, of course, that is not undermining democracy or trending on dangerous grounds. Oh no!!! It's ok 'cos it's Trump.

    The rank hypocrisy is truly staggering to see. I commend you on your mental gymnastics.
    Was Trump 2016 less legitimate than most winners? Yes undoubtedly. Whether it makes his win illegitimate or not just depends on your understanding of the word.

    The Democrats pointing that out is simply completely different to trying to stop his confirmation or not recognising the election.

    Had the Democrats in 2016 tried to place Clinton as President, especially if with criminal force, that would be the equivalent and equally wrong. But they conceded within hours of polls closing, so there is no equivalence or even fair minded comparison between the two scenarios.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    Read my post again. You'll find it applies much more generally that your defensive response implies.
    I did and read the original. I was pointing out - and not saying you were doing it - that to incessantly blame one side and ignore one's own transgressions is undermining the US, whether it is Republicans or Democrats.

    The book "Why Nations Fail" is particularly instructive on this point.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,697
    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,708
    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
    I can't and, for the reason that mentioned below. At the end of the day, wealthy liberals - who are going to be the ones who will have to get behind this idea to make it a reality - know that breaking away would essentially mean they couldn't rely on the force of the state to protect them from the crowds. California is already seeing an exodus of police officers going to places like Idaho. It isn't going to happen.
    I think that is an incredibly complacent view. At very least, I would foresee violent civil unrest, devolving into constitutional crises, as Trump tries to use the military to step in in Dem controlled states where governors refuse to enforce the suppression of demonstrations demanded by Trump.

    The bulk of the US' economic wealth is produced in heavily Democratic states.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,698

    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
    Second republic?
    Not much Liberte, egalite, or fraternite going on. Banana Republic more like.

    P.S. Ah Root, you're back! I was gutted for you. TSE teed up the "Starmer/Labour is crap" thread header you have been demanding this morning...and unless I'm mistaken you missed it. Gutted!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
    Even me, as I did at the time.

    But it plays both ways. Surely you will be happy to accept that the story we all heard that Trump won in 2016 because Russia rigged the election and therefore his election was illegitimate was a crock of horseshit?

    Or maybe not.
    The Democrats conceded that election within hours.

    The reality is Russia did influence the election, as they do most Western elections, and that makes them all less legitimate. Acknowledging that is completely different from trying to stop Trump taking power by not conceding. Which is then completely different from staging an armed coup and encouraging your fans to behead Mike Pence.

    Searching for false equivalences seems to be your special subject!
    Turning a blind eye is obviously yours :)

    Here is one example. Hilary in 2019 stating that "Trump knows he's an illegitimate President"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/hillary-clinton-trump-impeachment-illegitimate-president-2016-election-cbs-a9122986.html

    But, of course, that is not undermining democracy or trending on dangerous grounds. Oh no!!! It's ok 'cos it's Trump.

    The rank hypocrisy is truly staggering to see. I commend you on your mental gymnastics.
    What is your point here, that we think Trump is a uniquely loathesome human being whose actions are to be judged without the benefit of the doubt which one might reasonably extend to pretty much anyone else, including his political opponents, but we aren't prepared to admit it? I am. I just did.
    Err no, that the losing candidate in 2016 said that Trump was an illegitimate President and that "he knows" he stole the election and yet we did not see any condemnation of her behaviour (particularly on here) about her behaviour.

    I don't often agree with @Farooq but he is right - if you want to get the US out of where it is at the moment, the number one thing to do is to start condemning behaviour based on the actual action itself rather than seeing which side is doing it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,468
    edited October 10

    HYUFD said:

    Legislatures and Governors are all elected too (Secretaries of State appointed by the Governor).

    All have to agree to measures restricting ballot access and at the moment only 23 states out of 50 have both a GOP governor and GOP controlled legislature, nowhere near enough to win the EC by themselves in 2024 and even fewer than the 25 states Trump won in 2020 when he lost to Biden.

    If the GOP win enough states to control ballot access then the mood is likely heading for a GOP president again anyway

    But the GOP president wont be a GOP president in any meaningful sense. It will be Trump and the party will have become a demagogue cult worshipping outfit of near and actual criminals who don't believe a word of the founding principles of the US.

    I expect CA at the very least to exit.
    As I have already pointed out the GOP are nowhere near controlling enough elected state governorships and state legislatures to be able to influence the EC college outcome and the presidential election in 2024. They do not even have GOP governors and GOP state legislatures in every state which voted for Trump in 2020 let alone the nation as a whole.

    So more likely is the Democratic candidate gets narrowly re elected in 2024 and then states like Texas start to look to secede rather than California.

    Already 66% of Republicans in the South want to secede from the Union compared to only 47% of Democrats on the Pacific West Coast who want to secede
    https://dailyvoice.com/new-york/whiteplains/politics/new-poll-reveals-percentages-of-americans-who-want-to-secede-by-region/812724/
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,697
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
    Even me, as I did at the time.

    But it plays both ways. Surely you will be happy to accept that the story we all heard that Trump won in 2016 because Russia rigged the election and therefore his election was illegitimate was a crock of horseshit?

    Or maybe not.
    The Democrats conceded that election within hours.

    The reality is Russia did influence the election, as they do most Western elections, and that makes them all less legitimate. Acknowledging that is completely different from trying to stop Trump taking power by not conceding. Which is then completely different from staging an armed coup and encouraging your fans to behead Mike Pence.

    Searching for false equivalences seems to be your special subject!
    Turning a blind eye is obviously yours :)

    Here is one example. Hilary in 2019 stating that "Trump knows he's an illegitimate President"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/hillary-clinton-trump-impeachment-illegitimate-president-2016-election-cbs-a9122986.html

    But, of course, that is not undermining democracy or trending on dangerous grounds. Oh no!!! It's ok 'cos it's Trump.

    The rank hypocrisy is truly staggering to see. I commend you on your mental gymnastics.
    What is your point here, that we think Trump is a uniquely loathesome human being whose actions are to be judged without the benefit of the doubt which one might reasonably extend to pretty much anyone else, including his political opponents, but we aren't prepared to admit it? I am. I just did.
    Err no, that the losing candidate in 2016 said that Trump was an illegitimate President and that "he knows" he stole the election and yet we did not see any condemnation of her behaviour (particularly on here) about her behaviour.

    I don't often agree with @Farooq but he is right - if you want to get the US out of where it is at the moment, the number one thing to do is to start condemning behaviour based on the actual action itself rather than seeing which side is doing it
    Did the White House get stormed as a result? Y/N
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    TimT said:

    MrEd said:

    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
    I can't and, for the reason that mentioned below. At the end of the day, wealthy liberals - who are going to be the ones who will have to get behind this idea to make it a reality - know that breaking away would essentially mean they couldn't rely on the force of the state to protect them from the crowds. California is already seeing an exodus of police officers going to places like Idaho. It isn't going to happen.
    I think that is an incredibly complacent view. At very least, I would foresee violent civil unrest, devolving into constitutional crises, as Trump tries to use the military to step in in Dem controlled states where governors refuse to enforce the suppression of demonstrations demanded by Trump.

    The bulk of the US' economic wealth is produced in heavily Democratic states.
    Where does this idea coming from that Trump is going to send in the tanks to crush demonstrations? Is there seriously one bit of evidence - outside the fantasy wanking offs of the New Yorker and The Atlantic - that he ever envisaged using mass force to crush his opponents.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,979
    Thread on NI Protocol:

    I think it's important that those of us who think the UK has no reasonable case to make re Article 16 or a renegotiation (raises hand) do acknowledge that Brexiteers have a point when they say that regardless, the EU is in a very difficult position re the Protocol. 1/

    https://twitter.com/sylviademars/status/1447126574122377217?s=20
  • alednamalednam Posts: 154
    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    I think you’ll find that only one Party has done a whole lot of legislation to restrict voter access, and that's in the 28 states with a Republican Governor, and that only one Party has made repeated proven false allegations of voter rigging—allegations that the rigging has been in the favour of Democrats. (I don’t deny that Democrats have been known to go in for a bit of gerrymandering, this being their only possible route to restoration of fair elections.)
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    Why don't you just starting publishing headers talking about how we need a permanent Democratic Presidency and Congress?

    If you really had the balls - and I doubt you have - why don't you just call for the GOP to be banned as a threat to Democracy much as West Germany did post-WW2 with the Nazi party?

    The Grand Old Party are fine. It's the Trumper Insurrectionists that are the concern. Surely even you have to condemn their efforts to overthrow democracy.
    Even me, as I did at the time.

    But it plays both ways. Surely you will be happy to accept that the story we all heard that Trump won in 2016 because Russia rigged the election and therefore his election was illegitimate was a crock of horseshit?

    Or maybe not.
    The Democrats conceded that election within hours.

    The reality is Russia did influence the election, as they do most Western elections, and that makes them all less legitimate. Acknowledging that is completely different from trying to stop Trump taking power by not conceding. Which is then completely different from staging an armed coup and encouraging your fans to behead Mike Pence.

    Searching for false equivalences seems to be your special subject!
    Turning a blind eye is obviously yours :)

    Here is one example. Hilary in 2019 stating that "Trump knows he's an illegitimate President"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/hillary-clinton-trump-impeachment-illegitimate-president-2016-election-cbs-a9122986.html

    But, of course, that is not undermining democracy or trending on dangerous grounds. Oh no!!! It's ok 'cos it's Trump.

    The rank hypocrisy is truly staggering to see. I commend you on your mental gymnastics.
    What is your point here, that we think Trump is a uniquely loathesome human being whose actions are to be judged without the benefit of the doubt which one might reasonably extend to pretty much anyone else, including his political opponents, but we aren't prepared to admit it? I am. I just did.
    Err no, that the losing candidate in 2016 said that Trump was an illegitimate President and that "he knows" he stole the election and yet we did not see any condemnation of her behaviour (particularly on here) about her behaviour.

    I don't often agree with @Farooq but he is right - if you want to get the US out of where it is at the moment, the number one thing to do is to start condemning behaviour based on the actual action itself rather than seeing which side is doing it
    Did the White House get stormed as a result? Y/N
    Same outcome aimed for, with different tactics used.

    Democrats sort to chuck Trump out via impeachment and with a continual stream of stories in the press about how Russia rigged the election. All of which, by the way, are now being revealed to be absolute bullsh1t.

    That is excluding that one of the 2016 candidates (Hilary) paid for dirt to be dug up on the other (Trump) and that a US court was mislead into issuing a warrant to spy on the other campaign without being told that the information came from one of the candidates' side. Oh, and that the agency who asked for the warrant was under the jurisdiction of an AG who just happened to bump into Hilary's husband at an airfield and then spent 40 minutes discussing "baseball, the kids etc"

    Right.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,965
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Issue with 2020 in order

    Conspiring to commit violence against elected officials including the VP
    Arcane undemocratic methods to overturn result
    Creating propaganda by deliberately counting mail in ballots lasts
    Not conceding

    The issue is not simply some saying the election was stolen as you continually pretend.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    alednam said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    I think you’ll find that only one Party has done a whole lot of legislation to restrict voter access, and that's in the 28 states with a Republican Governor, and that only one Party has made repeated proven false allegations of voter rigging—allegations that the rigging has been in the favour of Democrats. (I don’t deny that Democrats have been known to go in for a bit of gerrymandering, this being their only possible route to restoration of fair elections.)
    I guess under your logic, other questionable tactics would be ok for the Democrats to use, all in the name of levelling up?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,178
    edited October 10
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,801

    Thread on NI Protocol:

    I think it's important that those of us who think the UK has no reasonable case to make re Article 16 or a renegotiation (raises hand) do acknowledge that Brexiteers have a point when they say that regardless, the EU is in a very difficult position re the Protocol. 1/

    https://twitter.com/sylviademars/status/1447126574122377217?s=20

    The end of that thread is laughable hopecasting similar to what we see on PB. The EU has got one lever it can pull, it can unilaterally leave the TCA after 12 months of notice. That's simply not going to happen. It would need unanimous consent and there's no way that all of them will agree to it. Most EU countries give no fucks about the Irish border, loads of them would be happy to kick the Irish out after all of the tax shenanigans for the last 20 years. Some may use this to crowbar Ireland out of the EU and into the TCA and let the UK/Ireland fix their own border issues.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Issue with 2020 in order

    Conspiring to commit violence against elected officials including the VP
    Arcane undemocratic methods to overturn result
    Creating propaganda by deliberately counting mail in ballots lasts
    Not conceding

    The issue is not simply some saying the election was stolen as you continually pretend.
    2016:

    Misled US court into issuing a warrant to spy on the other candidate's campaign without disclosing that the information came from a candidate's side;
    Continual claims for multiple years that the election was rigged and stolen with Russian interference
    Using impeachment hearings not once but twice to fuel the claims of illegitimacy
    Losing candidate claims that the 2016 winning candidate knew he didn't win the election

    As I said, the tactics were different but the ultimate aim of both campaigns was the same - was to de-legitimise the elected winner.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,282
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    On Topic Man who has never voted Labour in his life thinks Labour leader that in 2017 produced the biggest increase in vote share since WW2 left a toxic legacy

    His toxic divisive useless nonentity of a replacement is blame free

    As I say man who knows nothing about what inspires people to vote Labour

    You keep repeating this bollox, but bollox it is. Corbyn fought two general elections, and Labour recorded two of its lowest ever seat totals.*

    * Explanatory Note: In the UK, parties can form governments if they win a majority of the seats. Corbyn’s Labour won 262 seats in 2017, and a lot fewer in 2019. At both elections the winning post was 326 seats.
    It is amazing though, that even in the 2019 GE, Corbyn’s Labour got a better vote share than Miliband in 2015 and Brown in 2010.

    If you ignore 2017, & look at the vote share changes from 2015 to 2019, all that seems to have happened is UKIP went Tory, and some Tory Remainers went Lib Dem, despite all the loud noise in between

    Amazing, but irrelevant.
    Why is it irrelevant? Vote shares mean something, and it’s worth knowing, or at least trying to figure out, where 12.6% of voters, whose party has more or less given up, from 2015 went.

    If Tory 2019 is (Tory 2015 + UKIP 2015) - 4-5% to the LDs, where does that leave Labour?

    Flat from 2010 to 2019. One can hardly blame Corbyn for UKIPs voters going Tory, when his Brexit plan was a second referendum and the Tories was getting it done
    Corbynites continually cite their vote share and increase in its %, while completely ignoring what is actually required to win an election - and by which measure they fell lamentably short in 2017.
    Never mind that, I am talking about the fact that 2010, 2015,and 2019 were very similar scores for Labour, with three different leaders. 2017 was a peculiar GE that can pretty much be written off, analytically. But the fact remains Corbyn (32.1%) bettered EdM (30.4%),and Gordo's (29%) efforts in his bad GE, and the reason the seat tally was so low was UKIP/BXP standing aside and the Tories gobbling up their vote
    You go wrong when you start claiming Starmer's Remainerdom is a reason why he's struggling - it's the Covid blot out effect plus a lack of charisma cf Perfidious Posh - but I broadly agree with your take on this.

    Both 17 and 19 were Brexit elections but were impacted in opposite fashion. In 17, Labour were a receptacle for Remainers to vote against the hard Brexit Mrs May seemed intent upon. They didn't want to give her the majority she said she needed to drive it through. Upshot - the result flattered Corbyn. By 19, a significant proportion of these voters were sick & tired of the Brexit wars and rather than prolonging the agony with another Referendum wanted it to be over. Thus the power of the Oven Ready Deal and Get Brexit Done. Upshot - the result flattered Johnson.

    So what I'm saying is Jeremy Corbyn had less to do with Labour's good result at GE17 than his supporters like to make out, and he had less to do with their terrible result at GE19 than his detractors like to make out. Bias drives the analysis of both camps. The bigger and deeper reason for the overperformance in 17 and the underperformance in 19 is Brexit.

    The interesting question now - indeed the million dollar question when it comes to punditing UK politics - is what impact will Brexit have on the next election?
    But the reason Boris won such a majority in 2019, the reason the Tories floor seems to be 39/40 rather than 30/31 as it was in 2015, is UKIP voters have pretty much all gone Tory - and the reason for that is Labour demanded a second referendum in 2019... and their shadow Brexit Sec, who said Labour would be campaigning for Remain if they managed to swindle another go, was Sir Keir. So why would the deciding factor, the 2015 Kippers, go Labour now he is their leader?
    Ukip voters were all nationalistic hard leavers. They aren't in play for a progressive party of the left.
    All of them? Every single one of them? Did you survey them all?

    Interesting theory except many 2015 UKIP voters were 2010 Lib Dem voters.
    I'm using "all" in its looser "the vast majority of" sense there. Bit of shorthand. Much better for fingertips and keyboard - not to mention thread quality - to keep my posts as compact as possible. "All" will applaud me for this, I think.
    Funny, I thought you were using "all" in its looser "I'm pulling this from my derriere" sense there.

    Considering that UKIP surged from 3.1% to 12.5% then collapsed straight back down agian, those swing voters who didn't vote UKIP in 2010 but did in 2015 really ought to be considered possible voters for any party that wants to win government.

    Where did the 2015 voters come from? My theory is a lot of them were 2010 voters who went from LD as a protest party to UKIP as such after UKIP went into government. Don't forget in 2015 the Tories gained, not lost, vote share.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,965
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Issue with 2020 in order

    Conspiring to commit violence against elected officials including the VP
    Arcane undemocratic methods to overturn result
    Creating propaganda by deliberately counting mail in ballots lasts
    Not conceding

    The issue is not simply some saying the election was stolen as you continually pretend.
    2016:

    Misled US court into issuing a warrant to spy on the other candidate's campaign without disclosing that the information came from a candidate's side;
    Continual claims for multiple years that the election was rigged and stolen with Russian interference
    Using impeachment hearings not once but twice to fuel the claims of illegitimacy
    Losing candidate claims that the 2016 winning candidate knew he didn't win the election

    As I said, the tactics were different but the ultimate aim of both campaigns was the same - was to de-legitimise the elected winner.
    A coup by a defeated President is clearly not to de-legitimise the elected winner, but an attempt to stay in power when he lost.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,178
    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,979
    edited October 10
    Wonder who they got the idea from?

    New Canadian data suggests the bold strategy to delay and mix second doses of COVID-19 vaccines led to strong protection from infection, hospitalization and death — even against the highly contagious delta variant — that could provide lessons for the world.

    Preliminary data from researchers at the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control (BCCDC) and the Quebec National Institute of Public Health (INSPQ) shows the decision to vaccinate more Canadians sooner by delaying second shots by up to four months saved lives.


    https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-effectiveness-data-delayed-doses-mixing-matching-covid-19-vaccines-1.6205993
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,965
    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
    Also even in the implausible outcome of a conviction, the replacement President would still have been a Republican.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,584
    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    ITYM “threaten school board members with violence”.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,364

    Thread on NI Protocol:

    I think it's important that those of us who think the UK has no reasonable case to make re Article 16 or a renegotiation (raises hand) do acknowledge that Brexiteers have a point when they say that regardless, the EU is in a very difficult position re the Protocol. 1/

    https://twitter.com/sylviademars/status/1447126574122377217?s=20

    Interesting, with no easy answers. However one matter to realise is this. Because of the GFA there can't be a border in the opinion of most within the island of Ireland.

    So the border has to be policed somewhere else. It will either be within the UK (as in the agreement) or within the EU.

    The UK, like the RoI is a sovereign state. The EU isn't, and does not claim to be. The present agreement splits a state (UK) in two. It is more rational to split the EU since we are not then splitting a state.

    The checks should be between The British Isles and the EU (except Ireland). Then no state is divided from itself.

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
    I don't think Trump sent out a mob to hang the VP. If he did, then you should pass this info on because it would be enough to get him sent to prison.

    Re the impeachment point, on your logic, Trump's tactics to get the state legislatures to overturn the results in their states would also not have been a queue because they also would have operated in the existing constitutional framework. Which - in my mind - is wrong. That would have been a coup as well. But it would have been part of the constitutional framework.
  • Thread on NI Protocol:

    I think it's important that those of us who think the UK has no reasonable case to make re Article 16 or a renegotiation (raises hand) do acknowledge that Brexiteers have a point when they say that regardless, the EU is in a very difficult position re the Protocol. 1/

    https://twitter.com/sylviademars/status/1447126574122377217?s=20

    I think the EU is in a very difficult position

    They cannot manage customs without complete consent in NI
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    rpjs said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    ITYM “threaten school board members with violence”.
    Then use normal laws on committing violence, the Patriot Act was about terrorism.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,182
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Dave Chappelle special is absolutely brilliant.

    Never heard of him - read two scathing reviews of his routine in The Guardian and The Independent, then looked him up on wiki and found out he was a Muslim convert. Suppose the G and i thought it was immaterial to his material

    https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2021/oct/09/dave-chappelle-letter-trans-comedian-netflix


    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/comedy/features/dave-chappelle-netflix-closer-trans-b1934860.html
    The final paragraph of that first link is quite powerful IMO:

    "In a community with an abnormally high rate of depression and suicide, that’s the part that hurt. Every transgender person I know has lost someone by suicide, and rarely has the reason ever been what other trans people have said to them on Twitter. Hell. You said it yourself, Dave: “Twitter isn’t real.” The marginalization, mockery, dehumanization, and violence many of us face everyday of most of our lives is what fuels our despair. For you to use Daphne’s tragedy as your closing tag is the only thing you’ve done that’s made me angry enough to write a letter."
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,584
    edited October 10
    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
    I don't think Trump sent out a mob to hang the VP. If he did, then you should pass this info on because it would be enough to get him sent to prison.

    Re the impeachment point, on your logic, Trump's tactics to get the state legislatures to overturn the results in their states would also not have been a queue because they also would have operated in the existing constitutional framework. Which - in my mind - is wrong. That would have been a coup as well. But it would have been part of the constitutional framework.
    We’ve been over this before: the states have all, by law, delegated their power to appoint electors to the popular vote, so they could not reclaim that power retrospectively (ex post facto laws being constitutionally banned) after the 2020 election was held. They most certainly can reclaim the final right of the legislature to decide on what electors to point for future elections, and AIUI some already are doing that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,534
    Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver
    ·
    35m
    31,096 cases. Big number for the day of the week. 23% rise since last Sunday, which is definitely into the unpleasant zone.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,697
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    I didn't say that, did I? I said was the White House stormed by the Democrats?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Issue with 2020 in order

    Conspiring to commit violence against elected officials including the VP
    Arcane undemocratic methods to overturn result
    Creating propaganda by deliberately counting mail in ballots lasts
    Not conceding

    The issue is not simply some saying the election was stolen as you continually pretend.
    2016:

    Misled US court into issuing a warrant to spy on the other candidate's campaign without disclosing that the information came from a candidate's side;
    Continual claims for multiple years that the election was rigged and stolen with Russian interference
    Using impeachment hearings not once but twice to fuel the claims of illegitimacy
    Losing candidate claims that the 2016 winning candidate knew he didn't win the election

    As I said, the tactics were different but the ultimate aim of both campaigns was the same - was to de-legitimise the elected winner.
    A coup by a defeated President is clearly not to de-legitimise the elected winner, but an attempt to stay in power when he lost.
    Absolutely, and I said at the time that he was wrong. I also said he was wrong to try to persuade the states to overturn the results.

    Here is the thing though. I condemned what he did. But you and others have not condemned Hilary for what she said in 2019 even though, if the same words were used by Trump, you would be up in arms.

    And it goes back to what @IshmaelZ said - and what many on here believe - namely that s/he views truly Trump's election in 2016 was illegitimate. And it is not a problem to say that even as you condemn Trump for trying to claim the same thing.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,801

    Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver
    ·
    35m
    31,096 cases. Big number for the day of the week. 23% rise since last Sunday, which is definitely into the unpleasant zone.

    Fresher's week filtering into the numbers.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,584
    MrEd said:

    rpjs said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    ITYM “threaten school board members with violence”.
    Then use normal laws on committing violence, the Patriot Act was about terrorism.
    Where have you been the last twenty years? The Patriot Act has been misused by administrations of both parties since it was passed. See also RIPA in the UK.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,178
    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
    I don't think Trump sent out a mob to hang the VP. If he did, then you should pass this info on because it would be enough to get him sent to prison.

    Re the impeachment point, on your logic, Trump's tactics to get the state legislatures to overturn the results in their states would also not have been a queue because they also would have operated in the existing constitutional framework. Which - in my mind - is wrong. That would have been a coup as well. But it would have been part of the constitutional framework.
    It was more of a surging, murderous mob than a "queue"
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,880
    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
    I don't think Trump sent out a mob to hang the VP. If he did, then you should pass this info on because it would be enough to get him sent to prison.

    Re the impeachment point, on your logic, Trump's tactics to get the state legislatures to overturn the results in their states would also not have been a queue because they also would have operated in the existing constitutional framework. Which - in my mind - is wrong. That would have been a coup as well. But it would have been part of the constitutional framework.
    Eh?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,757
    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
    The false equivalence on this subject is just bloody astounding.

    That's why the potentially legal options to ignore the vote are so concerning, as that doesn't require a coup.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    rpjs said:

    MrEd said:

    rpjs said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    ITYM “threaten school board members with violence”.
    Then use normal laws on committing violence, the Patriot Act was about terrorism.
    Where have you been the last twenty years? The Patriot Act has been misused by administrations of both parties since it was passed. See also RIPA in the UK.
    Of course. They are bad pieces of legislation.

    My whole point about this is that this whole debate with Trump is just portrayed as a Black and White thing. Republicans devils, Democrats angels. Trump evil, Biden good. It's a crock of shit, both sides rig the system when they can according to the strengths they have. This whole claiming only one side is trying to rig the election is just utter hypocrisy.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,182
    MaxPB said:

    Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver
    ·
    35m
    31,096 cases. Big number for the day of the week. 23% rise since last Sunday, which is definitely into the unpleasant zone.

    Fresher's week filtering into the numbers.
    I'll agree with what appears to be a common view on here: cases are pretty much irrelevant at the moment. What matters are hospitalisations and deaths.

    Having said that, the high numbers of cases in my area are leading to squeaky-bum syndrome... ;)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,551
    edited October 10
    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
    I don't think that it is possible for the US to break up that way. There isn't so much red states and blue states as red counties and blue counties. Look at NY without NYC for example, or Pennsylvania without Philidelphia, or at Louisville vs the rest of Kentucky.

    America is a scattered bunch of blue cities scattered over a backdrop of red rural and small towns. Neither can survive without the other in the way that it was possible for the USA and CSA to do so.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,880
    MrEd said:

    rpjs said:

    MrEd said:

    rpjs said:

    MrEd said:

    Oh God, here we go ahead with the usual "Republicans are going to steal the 2024 election". No surprise it's come out when everyone is waking up to what a disaster Biden is as President.

    Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to Merrick Garland considering using the Patriot Act to prosecute parents who complain about Critical Race Theory in US schools.

    ITYM “threaten school board members with violence”.
    Then use normal laws on committing violence, the Patriot Act was about terrorism.
    Where have you been the last twenty years? The Patriot Act has been misused by administrations of both parties since it was passed. See also RIPA in the UK.
    Of course. They are bad pieces of legislation.

    My whole point about this is that this whole debate with Trump is just portrayed as a Black and White thing. Republicans devils, Democrats angels. Trump evil, Biden good. It's a crock of shit, both sides rig the system when they can according to the strengths they have. This whole claiming only one side is trying to rig the election is just utter hypocrisy.
    You seem to think that complaining that Trump was elected due to Russian interference but doing nothing about it is just as bad as actively overruling the vote. Please explain.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,880
    MaxPB said:

    Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver
    ·
    35m
    31,096 cases. Big number for the day of the week. 23% rise since last Sunday, which is definitely into the unpleasant zone.

    Fresher's week filtering into the numbers.
    I've been at the NEC for the past few days and if I haven't caught COVID I will be very surprised.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,890
    A good, if scary, thread header.

    How is the UK's alignment to an Anglosphere and cutting our European connections going to look when Trump has stolen the 2024 election and America is no longer a democracy?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,979
    Are you YES DEAD Yet?

    Time is on my side.....


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,534
    John Roberts
    @john_actuary
    ·
    5h
    Exactly a quarter of a million booster jabs reported in Flag of England, the best yet, and 29% up on last week. We've now jabbed 2.33m, out of 6.2m eligible, so we still have 3.8m beyond 6 months who we could immediately jab.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,880

    A good, if scary, thread header.

    How is the UK's alignment to an Anglosphere and cutting our European connections going to look when Trump has stolen the 2024 election and America is no longer a democracy?

    Yeah but Hillary's emails
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,698
    kinabalu said:

    If Piers Corbyn formed a political party here and its foundational principle was that the GE19 Conservative win was fraudulent, the true winner being Labour under his kid brother, would that party be allowed to stand at the next general election?

    Well it sort of happened in 2017. Corbyn claimed victory but did not blame the Conservatives for what was ultimately a brave defeat/stolen win (Delete as you wish).

    "I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky Blairites".
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,625
    Foxy said:

    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    It’s not the restrictions on voting access that are a concern, that’s par for the course and the GQP has already done as much as it can in this area; the latest changes probably won’t make much difference.

    The real concern is the states legislating to allow their legislatures to ignore the popular vote and impose their own slate of electors. Perfectly constitutional, as previously discussed at length here on PB.

    I have never seriously thought about the possibility of the USA breaking up. But I could see a situation where the national popular vote is massively in favour of the Dem Presidential candidate, the Dem candidate would have won the electoral college vote under normal conditions, but lose it because of those types of shenanigans, and then the East and West Coast basically saying, we're out, we are not going to stand for this any more.
    I don't think that it is possible for the US to break up that way. There isn't so much red states and blue states as red counties and blue counties. Look at NY without NYC for example, or Pennsylvania without Philidelphia, or at Louisville vs the rest of Kentucky.

    America is a scattered bunch of blue cities scattered over a backdrop of red rural and small towns. Neither can survive without the other in the way that it was possible for the USA and CSA to do so.
    A latter day explanation for for the stars and stripes. Nice.

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 3,691
    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    MrEd said:

    Farooq said:

    How has the US come to this

    Trump being POTUS again is incomprehensible

    I do not want to be unkind but by 2024 Trump will be my age and my old bones rattle and roll and just about keep me up

    Maybe tempus fugit will also arrive for him by then

    I'll tell you how. Tribalists turning a blind eye to misbehaviour on their own side, and sanctimonious gits knowing their side is gone rotten and still voting for them.

    People who know there's something wrong, wring their hands about it, and then endorse it at the ballot box.
    Works both ways. Democrats are as guilty as Republicans. The cries that it is only one side doing it is what is causing this level of distrust.
    No it isn't. It's mainly the fact that Trump is so off the scale poisonous. And what is this stuff about how we aren't allowed to say 2016 was rigged, when it plainly was?
    Ah ok, so:

    "2016 was rigged, illegitimate President elected" = ok to say, not a problem

    "2020 was stolen, stop the steal" = existential threat to Democracy and undermining the Republic

    Jesus, that in a nutshell highlights the issue.
    Saying the Trump presidency was "illegitimate" was proof that they shouldn't have elected Clinton.
    Trump's Big Lie was proof that they should have.

    Tie-breaker: count the attempted coups instigated by each. I'll let others work the abacus on that one.
    Are we counting the impeachment hearings as attempted coups? Not all coups involve tanks and guns.
    No, we are not. That is entirely within the existing constitutional framework.
    Sending a mob to hang the VP is not.
    The false equivalence on this subject is just bloody astounding.

    That's why the potentially legal options to ignore the vote are so concerning, as that doesn't require a coup.
    Would you like to explain why it is false equivalence. It gets bandied around as a fact but, in both 2016 and 2020, as I showed, and there is plenty of evidence for you to see, both sides claimed the winner's election was illegitimate and open to question.

    You will then claim it is about the January riots and that is the difference which is an argument I would have a lot more sympathy for if it wasn't for the fact I was debating on here post-election about how Trump's tactics were to go down the state legislatures route and everyone agreed this would be a coup. So people on here already accepted you could have a coup without force. You just seemed to have forgotten about it now a more useful argument comes along.
This discussion has been closed.