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Could Bojo be tempted to cash in on current polling by going early? – politicalbetting.com

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,714
    Johnson effectively condemning more people to die in utter agony and total and abject pain and misery, against their wishes. People will continue to try to get to switzerland.


    I am f*cking :angry::rage: tonight

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970

    What you gonna do? Blockade our own food supplies? Refuse to buy any electricity from them when the wind isn't blowing?

    Maybe, just maybe, it wasn't a terribly clever idea for the UK government to spend the last five, and especially the last two, years insulting our EU friends. Maybe cooperation might have been a more productive approach?
    We haven’t spent the last five years insulting them. Our tabloids can be a bit punchy but that’s just our boisterous media.

    Up until AUKUS, the only really hostile acts have come from the EU, and especially France. The overnight hard border across Ireland. The theft of our vaccines. The smearing of Astra Zeneca. The attempts to damage the City, the threats to cut power to Jersey, the disgraceful behaviour with channel migrants (happening for years now). Barnier’s promise to make Brexit ‘so painful the British will regret they ever did it’

    The fact you can’t see any of this just shows how pathetically myopic you’ve become. You’re turning into AC Grayling

    So relations with France are in the freezer for a decade. Fuck em. We can cope
  • isam said:

    Nice to have a PB consensus on Brexit - Everyone’s predictions were entirely correct, some peoples were even more correct than they thought they would be, and no ones giving an inch!

    😂😂😂

    If the Project Fear claim of a recession and mass unemployment correctly predicted full unemployment and mass vacancies, then I think we can safely say that all predictions for the rest of time have come true.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824

    Agree a deal with a third party nation [maybe Rwanda] that has the rule of law that any and all refugees that come to the UK from France will be sent there. Give that nation a big cheque. Pass a law in Parliament saying that this happens and that the Courts can not interfere.

    Then process asylum claims lawfully bringing people over safely and humanely from where they're actually desperate and not from France.
    Not every problem is solved by money.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,714
    edited October 2021
    we were told Johnson is a libertarian.

    If I choose to end my life it due to extreme ill health it is none of the state's fucking business.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    rcs1000 said:

    Imagine if we had a migrant in Northern Ireland. Would we really get the police to stop migrants if they were on their way down South to the Republic?

    Norway has a policy of encouraging self deportation (to the extent that they don't even bother to deport migrants themselves). How is that very different?
    The difference is the danger of the crossing. Dozens have died in the Channel

    If it was happening the other way, yes I believe there’d be intense pressure on our police to stop any and every boat, to avoid drownings. You would not see scenes like the one Sky video’d today on the French coast
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849

    It turned out to be right in almost all respects, except one. I was one of those who expected an immediate hit to business after the referendum, because of the collapse of confidence. That didn't happen (except as regards the exchange rate), and I'm happy to admit I was wrong on that. In retrospect, the long period between the referendum and the end of last year, which is when Brexit actually happened for practical purposes, meant that the effect was much slower that I'd thought it would be.

    On the other hand, in many respects it's far, far worse than I was expecting. I never thought relations with our EU ex-friends would get as bad as they now are, or that the government would turn so vehemently anti-business, or that we'd leave such excellent schemes as REACH and CE marking, or not agree an SPS deal with the EU, or that any PM would be so brain-dead as to put a border down the Irish Sea. As a result of those unexpectedly bad decisions, there's a lot more pain to come - much of it hasn't kicked in yet.
    While we must accept some of the blame for the poor UK-EU relations, I think it's a bit... generous... to the EU to blame only us.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,714
    I was really hoping Baroness Meacher's bill would get somewhere.

    I can feel a thread header coming on...
  • dixiedean said:

    Not every problem is solved by money.
    Indeed. But this one is.

    There are some poor countries that already find taking refugees from other nations [and the UN] to be an excellent source of revenue. They literally get paid to take the refugees off the hands of other nations and since they're judged as a safe destination by the UN the refugee gets somewhere safe to be, the country that needs cash gets cash and the country with cash gets to spend it.

    Everybody wins - except those who want to come here not for reasons of refuge, in which case they're exploiting our generosity that could and should be offering safe harbour to those who genuinely need our help and refuge.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    Leon said:

    We haven’t spent the last five years insulting them. Our tabloids can be a bit punchy but that’s just our boisterous media.

    Up until AUKUS, the only really hostile acts have come from the EU, and especially France. The overnight hard border across Ireland. The theft of our vaccines. The smearing of Astra Zeneca. The attempts to damage the City, the threats to cut power to Jersey, the disgraceful behaviour with channel migrants (happening for years now). Barnier’s promise to make Brexit ‘so painful the British will regret they ever did it’

    The fact you can’t see any of this just shows how pathetically myopic you’ve become. You’re turning into AC Grayling

    So relations with France are in the freezer for a decade. Fuck em. We can cope
    We have a boisterous media.
    They are hostile.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,455

    You seem to have a bizarre agricultural fixation tonight.

    As a proportion of the population the number of upland farmers in northern England is microscopic.

    And given that all the talk since covid has been of a migration away from cities (backed up with the massive housebuilding in 'Red Wall' areas) to towns and rural areas why do you think the reverse is going to happen ?

    Or are you thinking or merely desperately hoping ?
    Upland farmers are like fishermen, having a cultural and political significance beyond their numbers.

    The problem in red wall areas is an ageing demographic, often trapped by being property owners, while their youngsters go off to cosmopolitan urban Remania. Sure, we may well see incoming second homers arriving in the West Country, where they work from home part of the week, but they will be city folk culturally.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    rcs1000 said:

    *** MODERATOR WARNING ***

    Anyone posting about the most consequential things of the 21st Century who misses pb, will be subject to ban.

    I was surprised the night Tim flounced wasn’t on the original list
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824

    I we were told Johnson is a libertarian.

    If I choice to end my life it due to extreme ill health it is none of the state's fucking business.

    We did the libertarian thing earlier. Most PB lefties are more libertarian than PB libertarians it transpires.
    And they are a country light year more than the PM. Whatever bollocks his apologists claim.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    PB Remainers:

    You can't claim that shortages of everything except labour are due to Brexit.

    PB Leavers:

    You can't claim that the shortages of labour are due to Brexit, but the shortages of everything else are global.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    Leon said:

    The difference is the danger of the crossing. Dozens have died in the Channel

    If it was happening the other way, yes I believe there’d be intense pressure on our police to stop any and every boat, to avoid drownings. You would not see scenes like the one Sky video’d today on the French coast
    I never saw you as a mollycoddling socialist, nanny state knows best. But, hey, you learn something every day.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    rcs1000 said:

    PB Remainers:

    You can't claim that shortages of everything except labour are due to Brexit.

    PB Leavers:

    You can't claim that the shortages of labour are due to Brexit, but the shortages of everything else are global.

    The shortages of EVERYTHING are due to Covid. There. Sorted
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849

    we were told Johnson is a libertarian.

    If I choose to end my life it due to extreme ill health it is none of the state's fucking business.

    Or due to being stuck in France.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716

    we were told Johnson is a libertarian.

    If I choose to end my life it due to extreme ill health it is none of the state's fucking business.

    Johnson perfectly understands the British voters on this. They have a self-image of themselves as libertarian, they love politicans who talk about freedom. But they really hate the actual thing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    The shortages of EVERYTHING are due to Covid. There. Sorted
    Or, more specifically, they are the result of demand rebounding sharply everywhere as Covid retreats.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    rcs1000 said:

    PB Remainers:

    You can't claim that shortages of everything except labour are due to Brexit.

    PB Leavers:

    You can't claim that the shortages of labour are due to Brexit, but the shortages of everything else are global.

    I think you will find they can.
    I didn't think you were new here. Bit confused now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    rcs1000 said:

    I never saw you as a mollycoddling socialist, nanny state knows best. But, hey, you learn something every day.
    lol. I am capable of humanitarian sentiment, and yes I would be ashamed of Britain and the British police if they acted with such cynical disregard for human life. This is what makes us morally superior to the hateful Frogs and this is why we must start carpet bombing their coastal towns tonight
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,455
    rcs1000 said:

    PB Remainers:

    You can't claim that shortages of everything except labour are due to Brexit.

    PB Leavers:

    You can't claim that the shortages of labour are due to Brexit, but the shortages of everything else are global.

    Sure the world wide mismatch of goods, labour and places is not due to Brexit, but Brexit has reduced our resilience and ability to cope with those shocks.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    isam said:

    I was surprised the night Tim flounced wasn’t on the original list
    Anyone remember what he flounced about?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,714

    Johnson perfectly understands the British voters on this. They have a self-image of themselves as libertarian, they love politicans who talk about freedom. But they really hate the actual thing.
    THEY DON'T.

    Poll after poll shows the voting public want assisted dying for the bad cases e.g. motor neuro disease.

    It is the politicians who back away every five years when a private members bill comes along.

    I have no idea what they are scare of. It can't be the religious right in this country.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    edited October 2021

    Johnson perfectly understands the British voters on this. They have a self-image of themselves as libertarian, they love politicans who talk about freedom. But they really hate the actual thing.
    Not true. They love freedom. They just don’t want it for others.
    Assisted dying forces them to consider it may be them. So they hate it because it absolutely has to be for others.
    The alternative thought doesn’t bear thinking about.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    We haven’t spent the last five years insulting them. Our tabloids can be a bit punchy but that’s just our boisterous media.

    Up until AUKUS, the only really hostile acts have come from the EU, and especially France. The overnight hard border across Ireland. The theft of our vaccines. The smearing of Astra Zeneca. The attempts to damage the City, the threats to cut power to Jersey, the disgraceful behaviour with channel migrants (happening for years now). Barnier’s promise to make Brexit ‘so painful the British will regret they ever did it’

    The fact you can’t see any of this just shows how pathetically myopic you’ve become. You’re turning into AC Grayling

    So relations with France are in the freezer for a decade. Fuck em. We can cope
    The EU never smeared the AstraZeneca vaccine. Indeed, the European Medicines Agency has repeatedly said it is both safe and efficacious.

    The people who have more reprehensibly smeared AZ are:

    - Handelsblatt
    and
    - Macron

    There may be more, but they are the primary culprits.

    Edit to add: about three months ago I downloaded the big EU database of vaccine supplies and usage by product and by country, and was very surprised to discover that (outside France), there had been better take-up of AZ percentage-wise than Pfizer. I was going to write a header about it. Then I got distracted by doing something completely different.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,714
    dixiedean said:

    We did the libertarian thing earlier. Most PB lefties are more libertarian than PB libertarians it transpires.
    And they are a country light year more than the PM. Whatever bollocks his apologists claim.
    He's certainly bollocks.

    I feel this issue.

    It is the final straw for me and Johnson. F*cking useless windbag is only the half of it. Mr Piss and Wind yelling freedom whilst he locks down the country and blocks legislation that frees people from the State.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    TimT said:

    Anyone remember what he flounced about?
    He was doxxed, IIRC.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    rcs1000 said:

    Or, more specifically, they are the result of demand rebounding sharply everywhere as Covid retreats.
    Which is Covid

    Also it’s not just the rebound. Eg Covid means that millions of workers have quit their industries, or are physically displaced from their work. = shortages

    It should not come as a surprise. The Black Death led to severe shortages - of food, as it rotted in the fields I harvested, and of labourers, as so many peasants were dead. Indeed wages famously shot up after that plague

    That was 670 years ago. We’ve had plenty of warning of what pandemics will do
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    Leon said:

    Which is Covid

    Also it’s not just the rebound. Eg Covid means that millions of workers have quit their industries, or are physically displaced from their work. = shortages

    It should not come as a surprise. The Black Death led to severe shortages - of food, as it rotted in the fields I harvested, and of labourers, as so many peasants were dead. Indeed wages famously shot up after that plague

    That was 670 years ago. We’ve had plenty of warning of what pandemics will do
    Sure, I was just being a bit more specific.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    rcs1000 said:

    The EU never smeared the AstraZeneca vaccine. Indeed, the European Medicines Agency has repeatedly said it is both safe and efficacious.

    The people who have more reprehensibly smeared AZ are:

    - Handelsblatt
    and
    - Macron

    There may be more, but they are the primary culprits.
    That’s why I said ‘the EU and especially France’ in my comment
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,714
    dixiedean said:

    Not true. They love freedom. They just don’t want it for others.
    Assisted dying forces them to consider it may be them. So they hate it because it absolutely has to be for others.
    The alternative thought doesn’t bear thinking about.
    But the public support assisted dying.

    Even the bloody BMA is now not prepared to argue against it.

    Johnson is completely out of touch with how ordinary people think.

    They know in their guts it could be them or their nana.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TimT said:

    Anyone remember what he flounced about?
    I was having a ding dong with him about something or the other that night, but the flounce was due to him posting photos of Sean T’s flat in London, Sean asking him to stop, tim not stopping, then Sean posting an article revealing Tim’s full name, details about him, and interview with his wife!

    I think
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    dixiedean said:

    Not true. They love freedom. They just don’t want it for others.
    I don't think that's true. For example the British government was very popular when it was literally banning people from leaving their houses except for daily state-sanctioned walk. The voters definitely want the government to boss around other people and particularly foreigners, but they also like being told what to do.
  • Foxy said:

    Upland farmers are like fishermen, having a cultural and political significance beyond their numbers.

    The problem in red wall areas is an ageing demographic, often trapped by being property owners, while their youngsters go off to cosmopolitan urban Remania. Sure, we may well see incoming second homers arriving in the West Country, where they work from home part of the week, but they will be city folk culturally.
    You need to get out of your bunker before you ask where Steiner is.

    Why do you think there is so much house building in northern England ?

    Its not for city based second homers its for people buying their only home.

    Babbling about second homes in the West Country might be everyday talk for rich doctors but there is nothing everyday about it for the other 99%.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    rcs1000 said:

    The EU never smeared the AstraZeneca vaccine. Indeed, the European Medicines Agency has repeatedly said it is both safe and efficacious.

    The people who have more reprehensibly smeared AZ are:

    - Handelsblatt
    and
    - Macron

    There may be more, but they are the primary culprits.
    See prominent members of the governing parties in Australia. Some of them now ex, but tolerated by a craven PM in the fear of a Murdoch onslaught.
    Can't have your best pro-coal anti-climate action warriors slandered.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,714
    Remember the law that Johnson wants to block is only for people with SIX MONTHs or less to live.

    It is not about killing healthy granny to get the house.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    isam said:

    I was having a ding dong with him about something or the other that night, but the flounce was due to him posting photos of Sean T’s flat in London, Sean asking him to stop, tim not stopping, then Sean posting an article revealing Tim’s full name, details about him, and interview with his wife!

    I think
    I was just a lurker at the time, but wasn’t the actual final straw Plato (RIP) doxxing his address in Liverpool?

  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    I don't think that's true. For example the British government was very popular when it was literally banning people from leaving their houses except for daily state-sanctioned walk. The voters definitely want the government to boss around other people and particularly foreigners, but they also like being told what to do.
    No, they value freedom and they value life even more.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    I was just a lurker at the time, but wasn’t the actual final straw Plato (RIP) doxxing his address in Liverpool?

    Haha I bet he loved that! How he hated her
  • rcs1000 said:

    The EU never smeared the AstraZeneca vaccine. Indeed, the European Medicines Agency has repeatedly said it is both safe and efficacious.

    The people who have more reprehensibly smeared AZ are:

    - Handelsblatt
    and
    - Macron

    There may be more, but they are the primary culprits.

    Edit to add: about three months ago I downloaded the big EU database of vaccine supplies and usage by product and by country, and was very surprised to discover that (outside France), there had been better take-up of AZ percentage-wise than Pfizer. I was going to write a header about it. Then I got distracted by doing something completely different.
    Actually that is not exactly true. Both Merkel and, more importantly, Ursula von der Leyen claimed the UK had rushed the approval of the AZ vaccine and that it was untested. This was a clear attempt to undermine it in the eyes of Europeans. Now you might claim that Merkel was 'only' the Chancellor of Germany but UvdL was and is President of the European Commission.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    isam said:

    I was having a ding dong with him about something or the other that night, but the flounce was due to him posting photos of Sean T’s flat in London, Sean asking him to stop, tim not stopping, then Sean posting an article revealing Tim’s full name, details about him, and interview with his wife!

    I think
    Is his wife someone we would have heard of?
  • Remember the law that Johnson wants to block is only for people with SIX MONTHs or less to live.

    It is not about killing healthy granny to get the house.

    If it was, there'd probably be more support for that amongst a certain type of people ... 😒
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    isam said:

    I was having a ding dong with him about something or the other that night, but the flounce was due to him posting photos of Sean T’s flat in London, Sean asking him to stop, tim not stopping, then Sean posting an article revealing Tim’s full name, details about him, and interview with his wife!

    I think
    Wow. I missed all that. tim was a grumpy old bugger, but I did like when he went off on tangents about wine or song.
  • isam said:

    I was having a ding dong with him about something or the other that night, but the flounce was due to him posting photos of Sean T’s flat in London, Sean asking him to stop, tim not stopping, then Sean posting an article revealing Tim’s full name, details about him, and interview with his wife!

    I think
    SeanT was my kind of scum: fearless and inventive.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,644

    I don't think that's true. For example the British government was very popular when it was literally banning people from leaving their houses except for daily state-sanctioned walk. The voters definitely want the government to boss around other people and particularly foreigners, but they also like being told what to do.
    It's a bit like many ex-Army people say, perhaps - in the Army (below General rank) you are told precisely what to do, and if you do it you "succeed" and are praised. Civilian life is messier, and real life in the middle of a pandemic is horribly messy. A government telling you to take precisely 30 minutes' walk per day and in return the country will get through the crisis seems refreshingly straightforward.

    Conversely, Johnson's poll ratings have slumped when he's indulged his tendency to vacillate and procrastinate - people don't in general then say "Oh good, I can do what I like", they ask for a lead. If the sense of crisis goes away then people will be keener on "freedom".
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:

    lol. I am capable of humanitarian sentiment, and yes I would be ashamed of Britain and the British police if they acted with such cynical disregard for human life. This is what makes us morally superior to the hateful Frogs and this is why we must start carpet bombing their coastal towns tonight
    We should take all the illegal migrants in the UK and start dumping them at random French locations around the world: French Guaiana, Reunion, Guadeloupe.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716

    THEY DON'T.

    Poll after poll shows the voting public want assisted dying for the bad cases e.g. motor neuro disease.

    It is the politicians who back away every five years when a private members bill comes along.

    I have no idea what they are scare of. It can't be the religious right in this country.

    If you allow it you get actual cases, involving a friend or relative who didn't have veto accusing the state of sanctioning murder, and these will be hyped and mispresented in the press.
  • What you gonna do? Blockade our own food supplies? Refuse to buy any electricity from them when the wind isn't blowing?

    Maybe, just maybe, it wasn't a terribly clever idea for the UK government to spend the last five, and especially the last two, years insulting our EU friends. Maybe cooperation might have been a more productive approach?
    Why did you suddenly expect it to work now when it never worked even long before the Brexit vote. You are deluded.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    Sad about Plato, however. Quite a tough life, and cruelly shortened

    Yes, very sad
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970

    Actually that is not exactly true. Both Merkel and, more importantly, Ursula von der Leyen claimed the UK had rushed the approval of the AZ vaccine and that it was untested. This was a clear attempt to undermine it in the eyes of Europeans. Now you might claim that Merkel was 'only' the Chancellor of Germany but UvdL was and is President of the European Commission.
    Indeed. And I still find it hard to believe they did all this. And I cannot find any reason for it, other than bitterness at Brexit and embarrassment that Britain was - back then - doing better on vaccines. They endangered lives for such pettiness?

    You can maybe expect such idiocy from a petulant man-child like Macron, or a mediocrity like UVDL. But Merkel? The sober scientist?! The great stateswoman?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Aslan said:

    Is his wife someone we would have heard of?
    She was a successful children’s doctor I think, but not famous
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824

    But the public support assisted dying.

    Even the bloody BMA is now not prepared to argue against it.

    Johnson is completely out of touch with how ordinary people think.

    They know in their guts it could be them or their nana.
    Do they? Theoretically they do.
    That the PM is in hock to some radical religious groups is not always noted.
    Assisted dying, conversion therapy, I hesitate to mention trans. It is of a piece.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    TimT said:

    Wow. I missed all that. tim was a grumpy old bugger, but I did like when he went off on tangents about wine or song.
    You can still find him on Twitter. He is often amusingly waspish, as is his wont
  • It's a bit like many ex-Army people say, perhaps - in the Army (below General rank) you are told precisely what to do, and if you do it you "succeed" and are praised. Civilian life is messier, and real life in the middle of a pandemic is horribly messy. A government telling you to take precisely 30 minutes' walk per day and in return the country will get through the crisis seems refreshingly straightforward.

    Conversely, Johnson's poll ratings have slumped when he's indulged his tendency to vacillate and procrastinate - people don't in general then say "Oh good, I can do what I like", they ask for a lead. If the sense of crisis goes away then people will be keener on "freedom".
    The people who demanded precise instructions from the government were also those who continually criticised whatever the instructions were.

    So in conclusion:

    People want instructions so they don't have to think but to be able to do what they want if they choose to (but not have others allowed do what they want) but want someone else to take responsibility and get any blame.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Leon said:

    You can still find him on Twitter. He is often amusingly waspish, as is his wont
    He had a thing about Osborne. Is his twitter handle Gideon, or such?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,644

    THEY DON'T.

    Poll after poll shows the voting public want assisted dying for the bad cases e.g. motor neuro disease.

    It is the politicians who back away every five years when a private members bill comes along.

    I have no idea what they are scare of. It can't be the religious right in this country.

    I agree with you, but I used not to. This was debated seriously in Parliament when I was there with no whips involved. Originally I worried about people feeling they shouldn't be a burden (prompted or otherwise) in a temporary state of gloom, but I was persuaded after discussion with constituenjts on both sides that with reasonable safeguards it'd be right.

    I don't think MPs are scared of losing votes over it - a majority just genuinely aren't sure what the right thing to do is, and in the absence of a strong Government push either way, the issue doesn't get resolved. As you know, backbench reform is a rarity for procedural reasons - you generally need to get the Government actively on side.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    TimT said:

    He had a thing about Osborne. Is his twitter handle Gideon, or such?
    Yep
  • isam said:

    I was having a ding dong with him about something or the other that night, but the flounce was due to him posting photos of Sean T’s flat in London, Sean asking him to stop, tim not stopping, then Sean posting an article revealing Tim’s full name, details about him, and interview with his wife!

    I think
    No, they weren't real photos of Sean's flat. They were photo's of a doll's house - mocking Sean for living in small accommodation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849

    Actually that is not exactly true. Both Merkel and, more importantly, Ursula von der Leyen claimed the UK had rushed the approval of the AZ vaccine and that it was untested. This was a clear attempt to undermine it in the eyes of Europeans. Now you might claim that Merkel was 'only' the Chancellor of Germany but UvdL was and is President of the European Commission.
    Fair enough, I mostly remember UvdL being a total dick with AZ contracts, and had forgotten her earlier actions.

    Ms Merkel did at least redeem herself slightly by taking (for the first dose at least) the AZ vaccine.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,644
    TimT said:

    He had a thing about Osborne. Is his twitter handle Gideon, or such?
    Yes, that's him. He was virulently anti-Corbyn too, just took against a few people and wittily demolished them every day.

    Sean eventually apologised for outing him - I think highlighting his wife was the thing Tim understandably found intolerable. Most of us can look after ourselves but our relatives don't get volunteered to join in.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    edited October 2021

    Actually that is not exactly true. Both Merkel and, more importantly, Ursula von der Leyen claimed the UK had rushed the approval of the AZ vaccine and that it was untested. This was a clear attempt to undermine it in the eyes of Europeans. Now you might claim that Merkel was 'only' the Chancellor of Germany but UvdL was and is President of the European Commission.
    The
    Daily Mail
    Sun
    Telegraph
    Daily Express
    Times


    Guardian:

    Ursula von der Leyen suggests UK compromised on vaccine safety

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/02/ursula-von-der-leyen-accuses-uk-of-compromising-on-vaccine-safety
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,849
    Aslan said:

    We should take all the illegal migrants in the UK and start dumping them at random French locations around the world: French Guaiana, Reunion, Guadeloupe.
    France isn't dumping them. They are simply not stopping them from leaving.

    Would you support stopping asylum seekers from leaving the UK?

  • I agree with you, but I used not to. This was debated seriously in Parliament when I was there with no whips involved. Originally I worried about people feeling they shouldn't be a burden (prompted or otherwise) in a temporary state of gloom, but I was persuaded after discussion with constituenjts on both sides that with reasonable safeguards it'd be right.

    I don't think MPs are scared of losing votes over it - a majority just genuinely aren't sure what the right thing to do is, and in the absence of a strong Government push either way, the issue doesn't get resolved. As you know, backbench reform is a rarity for procedural reasons - you generally need to get the Government actively on side.
    This is one thing that Westminster struggles with.

    I feel as passionately as rottenborough that this should be legal.

    But I also feel it should be legalised as a conscience vote in the Commons and not become a whipped party political plaything.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970


    I agree with you, but I used not to. This was debated seriously in Parliament when I was there with no whips involved. Originally I worried about people feeling they shouldn't be a burden (prompted or otherwise) in a temporary state of gloom, but I was persuaded after discussion with constituenjts on both sides that with reasonable safeguards it'd be right.

    I don't think MPs are scared of losing votes over it - a majority just genuinely aren't sure what the right thing to do is, and in the absence of a strong Government push either way, the issue doesn't get resolved. As you know, backbench reform is a rarity for procedural reasons - you generally need to get the Government actively on side.
    I find it horribly difficult. As a moral question

    The irony is that ‘assisted dying’ happens all the time, every day, in UK hospitals and hospices. A doctor quietly dials up the morphine and someone is hastened gently to the end

    It’s assisted ‘suicide’ that perplexes us
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    rcs1000 said:

    He was doxxed, IIRC.
    That’s my memory of it. Shame. He remains one of the PB greats - hope he will return someday.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    edited October 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    France isn't dumping them. They are simply not stopping them from leaving.

    Would you support stopping asylum seekers from leaving the UK?
    Indeed. Should the French Police go in mob handed to prevent folk from not breaking French law?
    Many seem to think they should. Many of them see themselves as Libertarian too.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    rcs1000 said:

    France isn't dumping them. They are simply not stopping them from leaving.

    Would you support stopping asylum seekers from leaving the UK?
    I’ll say it again. It’s much more than that. The French authorities are standing by, deliberately doing nothing, as men women and children climb into boats and attempt horribly dangerous crossings; crossings which have already killed dozens

    I know it’s unusual for me to be a bleeding-heart liberal, but I hope and believe the UK would be a bit better than this
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    edited October 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Indeed. Should the French Police go in mob handed to prevent folk from not breaking French law?
    Many seem to think they should. Many of them see themselves as Libertarian too.
    They are breaking the law. They are wilfully and terribly endangering the lives of children
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    dixiedean said:

    Quite apart from that it offers the opportunity to move away from home, in reasonable security, experience a completely different part of the country, and meet hundreds of new folk your own age from all backgrounds, without your parents or relatives or neighbours knowing all your business.
    It really isn't about a purely financial cost/benefit analysis.
    Indeed you have just identified its strongest suit.
  • rcs1000 said:

    France isn't dumping them. They are simply not stopping them from leaving.

    Would you support stopping asylum seekers from leaving the UK?
    I think I would probably prevent them taking children on dangerous sea voyages in unsuitable craft. There is nothing un-libertarian about preventing child endangerment.

    But of course more generally as we know my views on migration are not very popular and probably also not very practical. In my eyes this should be a non issue.
  • Yes, that's him. He was virulently anti-Corbyn too, just took against a few people and wittily demolished them every day.

    Sean eventually apologised for outing him - I think highlighting his wife was the thing Tim understandably found intolerable. Most of us can look after ourselves but our relatives don't get volunteered to join in.
    Well I've learned something new today.

    I always thought it was Plato who outed tim.

    I wasn't reading when the bust up happened and it had all been deleted afterwards.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    They are breaking the law. They are wilfully and terribly endangering the lives of children
    The French have always had a relaxed attitude to Health and Safety. One may almost call it laissez -faire. I remember walking on the Pont du Gard. No barriers. Just a sign.
    It is close to...well Libertarian.
    Anyways. I think we can agree. The EU was better before the imbeciles of the EPP took over.
    Idiots!
    We may be fortunate enough to have some Social Democrats back in charge soon.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited October 2021

    No, they weren't real photos of Sean's flat. They were photo's of a doll's house - mocking Sean for living in small accommodation.
    Sean apologised for the doxxing, as I recall, and asked that Tim returned. But he never did.

    Edit: I see Nick has posted similarly.
  • dixiedean said:

    Indeed. Should the French Police go in mob handed to prevent folk from not breaking French law?
    Many seem to think they should. Many of them see themselves as Libertarian too.
    It's up to them whether they wish to or not.

    If they don't wish to that's fair enough ... But they shouldn't then take our money saying that they will do if we pay them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,455


    I agree with you, but I used not to. This was debated seriously in Parliament when I was there with no whips involved. Originally I worried about people feeling they shouldn't be a burden (prompted or otherwise) in a temporary state of gloom, but I was persuaded after discussion with constituenjts on both sides that with reasonable safeguards it'd be right.

    I don't think MPs are scared of losing votes over it - a majority just genuinely aren't sure what the right thing to do is, and in the absence of a strong Government push either way, the issue doesn't get resolved. As you know, backbench reform is a rarity for procedural reasons - you generally need to get the Government actively on side.
    I am turning in, but have grave doubts about "assisted dying", despite my experiences of seeing people suffer in their last months, including my Mother in Law over the summer.

    I am a Christian, but that is not the reason. It is a very slippery slope for the state to decide (and it would be state regulated) as to who gets bumped off as too inconvenient.

    There are well established and humane care pathways for terminal illness, but should we go the way of Stangl? I hope not. If you think that I am being hyperbolic, doesn't some of this remind you of "Canada"?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1127413/Cashing-despair-Suicide-clinic-Dignitas-profit-obsessed-killing-machine-claims-ex-worker.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970

    Well I've learned something new today.

    I always thought it was Plato who outed tim.

    I wasn't reading when the bust up happened and it had all been deleted afterwards.
    I was just a lurker etc but it was Plato pinpointing his house via Google maps, and putting it on here, including Streetview, that finally saw him leave
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824

    It's up to them whether they wish to or not.

    If they don't wish to that's fair enough ... But they shouldn't then take our money saying that they will do if we pay them.
    Indeed.
    Foolish to think that the solution is always money.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,923

    Shame. It was the best constitutional innovation we've had in many decades.
    Was it? It decoupled Confidence motions from other legislation. It allowed (between January and May of 2019) the government to lose Brexit legislation by a majority of 230, yet the next day win a confidence motion by 20.

    The government of the day couldn't pass any legislation, but the opposition couldn't VoNC the government.

    It was a pile of shit, because it never foresaw such a problem could arise.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824

    Was it? It decoupled Confidence motions from other legislation. It allowed (between January and May of 2019) the government to lose Brexit legislation by a majority of 230, yet the next day win a confidence motion by 20.

    The government of the day couldn't pass any legislation, but the opposition couldn't VoNC the government.

    It was a pile of shit, because it never foresaw such a problem could arise.
    Yep. Cobbled together crap cos the media couldn't bear the thought of 4 days without a government.
    Even though other countries manage months.
    Worst government of my lifetime by a distance.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,926

    Shame. It was the best constitutional innovation we've had in many decades.
    Wasn't it really just symbolic? Because a simple majority was enough to overturn it, since parliament can always overrule any previous legislation.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 954
    Not if this weeks local by elections are anything to go by, disaster for the Cons.
This discussion has been closed.