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Pence for the 2024 nomination looks a good bet at 14/1 – politicalbetting.com

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  • eekeek Posts: 29,399

    It would be interesting to learn what Emma believes
    Why - I suspect Emma's viewpoint would be based on marketing / PR advice nowadays.

    The truth is that all children are the product of their parents beliefs and attitudes attached to the opportunities that were available to them.

  • This post from Guido Gianasso (Professor of Leadership at HEC Paris in Qatar / Honorary Consul of Romania in Geneva) has flashed up in my feed and currently has over 103,000 likes and loves, with several across my network. There isn't a single critical comment beneath it.

    Read it, and you'll see he's co-opted Emma - with a MASSIVE picture of her on the post- to support his own pre-existing political views. He manages to crowbar Brexit in and also has the audacity to say that Emma is not British and is evidence that national identities are fading, which he thinks is a good thing, as he feels they can only be ethnocentrically based. This is fairly typical of the views advertised on the professional networking site LinkedIn and the "global citizens" that inhabit it:


    "EMMA RADUCANU AND THE ILLUSION OF NATIONS

    A new tennis champion has emerged. It is fascinating to observe the dynamics taking place around this young lady.

    Emma's father is Romanian. Her name is Romanian and she speaks Romanian fluently. Hence she is considered Romanian by millions of Romanians. But Emma has actually never lived in Romania.

    Emma's mother is Chinese. She speaks fluent Chinese, as a recent video available on YouTube shows. Hence she is considered a Chinese hero by millions of Chinese, who seem to forget that the PRC discourages international marriages.

    Emma was born in Canada but has lived most of her life and trained in the UK. Hence she is considered British by most Britons and was publicly congratulated by the Queen. But the British public that now celebrates her success is the same that voted Brexit with the very objective to make it difficult for East Europeans such as Emma and her father to live in the UK.

    The reality is that Emma is not Romanian, Chinese or British. She is much more. She is the outstanding result of the combination of Romanian talent, Chinese work ethics and British openness and sport infrastructure.

    At a time when many countries are going back to very ethnocentric models and policies, Emma is the best evidence that National identities are fading and we must embrace a geocentric mindset. Emma Raducanu is the future of humankind."

    She is half a Romanian, half Chinese naturalised Brit. Which means she is a British citizen and has heritage elsewhere. Like so many of us do.

    All this talk about nationalism, it always seems to be portrayed in extremis. Like she must be British OR Romanian instead of having elements of both. It makes me think back to my dipshit brother-in-law who had a very negative view of foreigners as a yong man and voted BNP. I asked him which country he would deport himself to - Ireland or Spain. As the party he supported saw 2nd generation migrants like him as foreigners as not "pure bred anglo-saxon"

    In Emma Raducanu's case she is a British citizen. Her ethnic heritage is something those nations can be proud of but she's chosen to be British and not pursue Romanian or Chinese nationality.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    This post from Guido Gianasso (Professor of Leadership at HEC Paris in Qatar / Honorary Consul of Romania in Geneva) has flashed up in my feed and currently has over 103,000 likes and loves, with several across my network. There isn't a single critical comment beneath it.

    Read it, and you'll see he's co-opted Emma - with a MASSIVE picture of her on the post- to support his own pre-existing political views. He manages to crowbar Brexit in and also has the audacity to say that Emma is not British and is evidence that national identities are fading, which he thinks is a good thing, as he feels they can only be ethnocentrically based. This is fairly typical of the views advertised on the professional networking site LinkedIn and the "global citizens" that inhabit it:


    "EMMA RADUCANU AND THE ILLUSION OF NATIONS

    A new tennis champion has emerged. It is fascinating to observe the dynamics taking place around this young lady.

    Emma's father is Romanian. Her name is Romanian and she speaks Romanian fluently. Hence she is considered Romanian by millions of Romanians. But Emma has actually never lived in Romania.

    Emma's mother is Chinese. She speaks fluent Chinese, as a recent video available on YouTube shows. Hence she is considered a Chinese hero by millions of Chinese, who seem to forget that the PRC discourages international marriages.

    Emma was born in Canada but has lived most of her life and trained in the UK. Hence she is considered British by most Britons and was publicly congratulated by the Queen. But the British public that now celebrates her success is the same that voted Brexit with the very objective to make it difficult for East Europeans such as Emma and her father to live in the UK.

    The reality is that Emma is not Romanian, Chinese or British. She is much more. She is the outstanding result of the combination of Romanian talent, Chinese work ethics and British openness and sport infrastructure.

    At a time when many countries are going back to very ethnocentric models and policies, Emma is the best evidence that National identities are fading and we must embrace a geocentric mindset. Emma Raducanu is the future of humankind."

    What a hopeful and refreshing read; the Professor's piece I mean.

    I have grandchildren who are half-British, half Thai and live in Thailand. Two of them are very keen on, and appear quite good at, sport. They could, and probably would, play for either Britain or Thailand if one or the other came calling.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,399

    "so nuclear" - bullshit.

    A dozen tidal lagoon power stations around our coast would produce power that was:

    a) consistent
    b) green
    c) emission free
    d) WASTE FREE
    e) have a capital cost of construction about a third that of nuclear
    f) produce electricity at about a 40-50% discount to the cost of nuclear
    g) have abandonment costs orders of magnitude lower than nuclear but
    h) as they last three times longer than a nuclear power station on the base case - probably many times that in practice - you won't need to abandon them.
    And yet for reasons unknown we have decided not to use Tidal power even though we had more suitable locations than anywhere else in the world.

    Any idea why that is?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,935
    edited September 2021
    MaxPB said:

    I'm not sure that's the case, if he were to get citizenship in the US it would be based on his birth certificate. Either way I don't see Americans voting for Boris as POTUS. It would be funny if he went for it though.
    Whether he is a natural citizen would need to be tested in court, or by Congress. He could raise hundreds of millions well before it ever got to that stage, which might only happen if he was a nominee, or even once elected. (There are plenty who claim Ted Cruz is not a natural citizen, although the majority view is that he is).

    I think it not unlikely that he goes for $$$$$, even if it is not a serious attempt.
  • MaxPB said:

    I'm not sure that's the case, if he were to get citizenship in the US it would be based on his birth certificate. Either way I don't see Americans voting for Boris as POTUS. It would be funny if he went for it though.
    Never mind the citizenship Boris is at least a decade too young for POTUS.
  • What a hopeful and refreshing read; the Professor's piece I mean.

    I have grandchildren who are half-British, half Thai and live in Thailand. Two of them are very keen on, and appear quite good at, sport. They could, and probably would, play for either Britain or Thailand if one or the other came calling.
    Yes, I thought you'd like it.

    It's a great totem for flushing out those with utterly moronic views.
  • 1. Totally incorrect. The winning party gains 100% of the seats. Every single MP is from the winning party in their own constituency. Even Keir Starmer was in the winning party in his constituency last time. Famously next Prime Minister Jo Swinson was not of course.

    2. Working as intended. Every area gets the MP they chose.

    3. So? They should do better and appeal for more votes next time then. If they do they can win.

    4. If that's what the public votes for across the country then fair enough.

    5. It's not neutered. It's what the people chose and it does its job. If the government strays from the confidence of a majority of MPs it fails, see 2017-19 for instance.
    It's a view I suppose, but then hardly even handed. I shouldn't really expect anything different from you.

  • Yes, I thought you'd like it.

    It's a great totem for flushing out those with utterly moronic views.
    Start the day as you mean to go on I always say..
  • She is half a Romanian, half Chinese naturalised Brit. Which means she is a British citizen and has heritage elsewhere. Like so many of us do.

    All this talk about nationalism, it always seems to be portrayed in extremis. Like she must be British OR Romanian instead of having elements of both. It makes me think back to my dipshit brother-in-law who had a very negative view of foreigners as a yong man and voted BNP. I asked him which country he would deport himself to - Ireland or Spain. As the party he supported saw 2nd generation migrants like him as foreigners as not "pure bred anglo-saxon"

    In Emma Raducanu's case she is a British citizen. Her ethnic heritage is something those nations can be proud of but she's chosen to be British and not pursue Romanian or Chinese nationality.
    Yes, that's a fair post - my objection is that the imbecile who wrote this falsely attributes national identity to racial purity (wrong, and offensive) and then says that nations are an illusion. In fact, that's really what he wanted to use her for given that's what he believed anyway and headlined his post with.

    I couldn't disagree with him more and have contempt for his views.

    I bet he's an arsehole in real life.
  • The only way to do that is, as you say, with STV or with AV - something I voted for but which the public sadly rejected.

    Any other PR system based on the proportion of votes gained by a party automatically gives the party the moral high ground in the claim that they can control MPs and that we are voting for a party not an individual representative. It gives more power to the parties rather than taking it away and is something that needs to be resisted. You can guess which systems the parties campaigning for electoral reform would prefer us to use.
    Single Transferable Vote in Multi-Member Constituencies. You get proportionality, a choice of which representative to see if one is an anus, and you're still in control not a party who set a list.

    The key balance would be how big a seat. As England is now set on "Metro Mayors" even in non-metro areas there is clearly a desire for some regional co-ordination. So why not copy Scotland - elect most members from a constituency and a smaller number elected by region.
  • This post from Guido Gianasso (Professor of Leadership at HEC Paris in Qatar / Honorary Consul of Romania in Geneva) has flashed up in my feed and currently has over 103,000 likes and loves, with several across my network. There isn't a single critical comment beneath it.

    Read it, and you'll see he's co-opted Emma - with a MASSIVE picture of her on the post- to support his own pre-existing political views. He manages to crowbar Brexit in and also has the audacity to say that Emma is not British and is evidence that national identities are fading, which he thinks is a good thing, as he feels they can only be ethnocentrically based. This is fairly typical of the views advertised on the professional networking site LinkedIn and the "global citizens" that inhabit it:


    "EMMA RADUCANU AND THE ILLUSION OF NATIONS

    A new tennis champion has emerged. It is fascinating to observe the dynamics taking place around this young lady.

    Emma's father is Romanian. Her name is Romanian and she speaks Romanian fluently. Hence she is considered Romanian by millions of Romanians. But Emma has actually never lived in Romania.

    Emma's mother is Chinese. She speaks fluent Chinese, as a recent video available on YouTube shows. Hence she is considered a Chinese hero by millions of Chinese, who seem to forget that the PRC discourages international marriages.

    Emma was born in Canada but has lived most of her life and trained in the UK. Hence she is considered British by most Britons and was publicly congratulated by the Queen. But the British public that now celebrates her success is the same that voted Brexit with the very objective to make it difficult for East Europeans such as Emma and her father to live in the UK.

    The reality is that Emma is not Romanian, Chinese or British. She is much more. She is the outstanding result of the combination of Romanian talent, Chinese work ethics and British openness and sport infrastructure.

    At a time when many countries are going back to very ethnocentric models and policies, Emma is the best evidence that National identities are fading and we must embrace a geocentric mindset. Emma Raducanu is the future of humankind."

    It's a bit wanky but also seems fundamentally true. Some people like to put themselves in boxes, and to put other people in boxes. Others don't. Right now the putting people in boxes crowd is fighting a pretty successful rear-guard action, but I suspect and hope that in the long run they will lose. The future is global, and the people who succeed will be the ones who are willing to embrace that.
  • What a hopeful and refreshing read; the Professor's piece I mean.

    I have grandchildren who are half-British, half Thai and live in Thailand. Two of them are very keen on, and appear quite good at, sport. They could, and probably would, play for either Britain or Thailand if one or the other came calling.
    Perhaps Muay Thai for Britain and cricket for Thailand to maximise opportunities?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,504
    eek said:

    And yet for reasons unknown we have decided not to use Tidal power even though we had more suitable locations than anywhere else in the world.

    Any idea why that is?
    From what I understand it is a form of institutional inertia.

    Government is good at making a thing The Policy, in the permanent portions of the system (Civil Service etc). Once that is done (see Maggie and Global Warming, for example) the juggernaut proceeds. Anything against The Policy is crushed.

    This includes facts that are not correct being used to judge The Opposition. One "fact" used against the tidal ponds was that they would require vast amounts of CO2 production to build. On closer enquiry, it becomes apparent that this assumes that they are built as giant, circular concrete dams. Which no-one has ever proposed, to my knowledge.

    Related structure have been built (at a smaller scale) to protect oil rigs in shallow water in Canada against ice, for example - they are always rock/shingle berms.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,422

    What a hopeful and refreshing read; the Professor's piece I mean.

    I have grandchildren who are half-British, half Thai and live in Thailand. Two of them are very keen on, and appear quite good at, sport. They could, and probably would, play for either Britain or Thailand if one or the other came calling.
    She came from Canada. Not Romania. But who gives a fuck?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Whether he is a natural citizen would need to be tested in court, or by Congress. He could raise hundreds of millions well before it ever got to that stage, which might only happen if he was a nominee, or even once elected. (There are plenty who claim Ted Cruz is not a natural citizen, although the majority view is that he is).

    I think it not unlikely that he goes for $$$$$, even if it is not a serious attempt.
    IIRC there was debate about the late Senator McCain's right to stand, as he was born in an offshore US in (again IIRC) Panama.
  • eek said:

    That's a base load issue. The base needs to be consistent and green emission free (so nuclear) but that's got a different set of issues.

    You've conflated base load and despatchable generation. Intermittent renewables need to be backed up with despatchable thermal plants. A mixture of CCGT, OCGT and engine sets. These are the folks with availability contracts ( being paid not to generate most of the time). The last thing an OCGT operator wants is to be called on to generate. It usually costs them money.
  • A comment which immediately undermines the claims you just made about STV and not giving power to parties.
    Why? 4m people voted for candidates of the UKIP mindset. They should have been represented. We will continue to have political parties in this country so you can't say "no power to parties" as they will still choose candidates.

    People would be free to vote for the candidates representing UKIP and expect some of them to be elected. No list system, no vote for a party, always for an individual.
  • Single Transferable Vote in Multi-Member Constituencies. You get proportionality, a choice of which representative to see if one is an anus, and you're still in control not a party who set a list.

    The key balance would be how big a seat. As England is now set on "Metro Mayors" even in non-metro areas there is clearly a desire for some regional co-ordination. So why not copy Scotland - elect most members from a constituency and a smaller number elected by region.
    Because again it puts too much power in the hands of the parties. It is not even a case that we should be standing still on this. We should be actively reversing the ability of parties to coerce the individual representatives we elect. Moving to any system that is proportional based on party votes does yet more damage to democracy.
  • It's a view I suppose, but then hardly even handed. I shouldn't really expect anything different from you.

    Like you were even handed? 🤔

    Every single MP in Parliament, without fail, is a winner. They all won their constituency and they were all the number one pick of their constituents.

    Just because other constituencies chose a representative from a different party doesn't change that fact.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Yes, I thought you'd like it.

    It's a great totem for flushing out those with utterly moronic views.
    Happy little soul, aren't you. I might, and do, disagree with you on occasion, but when I have actually been rude to you.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771
    Morning all.
    Dura_Ace said:

    Who the fuck knows? Delivering a completed reactor would still be an NPT violation I think.

    It's all been left purposefully vague, like Brexit in 2016, so that all manner of hopes, dreams and fantasies (like building the submarines in the UK) can be projected onto its tabula rasa.
    The only action I have seen is "have consulted very early with the IAEA".

    https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/iaea-on-trilateral-effort-of-australia-united-kingdom-and-united-states-on-nuclear-naval-propulsion

    Does it count as proliferation if they rent the reactors?

    It's the IAEA annual meeting at the moment, so they are probably talking about it.

  • Why? 4m people voted for candidates of the UKIP mindset. They should have been represented. We will continue to have political parties in this country so you can't say "no power to parties" as they will still choose candidates.

    People would be free to vote for the candidates representing UKIP and expect some of them to be elected. No list system, no vote for a party, always for an individual.
    Why should they be represented? They lost.

    If UKIP wanted representatives they'd have to convince the plurality of voters in a constituency to vote for them. They failed to do so.
  • It's a bit wanky but also seems fundamentally true. Some people like to put themselves in boxes, and to put other people in boxes. Others don't. Right now the putting people in boxes crowd is fighting a pretty successful rear-guard action, but I suspect and hope that in the long run they will lose. The future is global, and the people who succeed will be the ones who are willing to embrace that.
    Woah, hold on. The Left *love* to put people in boxes, provided it's a race, gender, or sexuality box. In fact, that's accelerated: what they hate is the national identity box, and to a lesser extent the religious box, as they view it as false consciousness.

    But if your argument is that people can chose their identity then you can't fundamentally advocate they can pick their sex and gender identity but cannot do so for national identity as well because it's all a personal choice.

    Personally I think national Identity will always be relevant and complimentary with others, as will religious identity, and I see no evidence whatever that will ever end. It's complex: people can have overlapping and complimentary identities, and emphasise some of them to greater degrees than others, but it's about to what and to whom you feel allegiance with - and it's absolutely not racially bound.

    This post by this Professor isn't a progressive post; it's a highly regressive one.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Like you were even handed? 🤔

    Every single MP in Parliament, without fail, is a winner. They all won their constituency and they were all the number one pick of their constituents.

    Just because other constituencies chose a representative from a different party doesn't change that fact.
    What do think about constituencies like Ynys Mon, where the candidate who comes first (of four) rarely has much more than 30-35% of the vote.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,354
    eek said:

    And yet for reasons unknown we have decided not to use Tidal power even though we had more suitable locations than anywhere else in the world.

    Any idea why that is?
    Financial. I firmly believe that the era of tidal is coming because the other generating costs are going up. I also think there is a huge green blob that hates the idea of tidal lagoons as there will be impact on the natural world. Like nuclear, they want us not to use certain solutions to avoiding climate change, and I think would prefer us all to starve, neuter ourselves and go extinct.
  • I think I'd enjoy hearing from Emma on any subject but I sincerely hope she manages to stay out of politics so she can continue to focus on and enjoy her tennis.

    What really pisses me off is people trying to exploit her success for their own political ends and attributing their own views to her. They seem to view her as a migrant first and a Brit second.

    I find that insulting.
    Thats what you get when stopping migration is and has been the singular political issue of this generation. People don't want migrants, especially those seen as low skilled and definitely don't want their kids. Until the kids grow up to become a world champion runner or tennis sensation.

    Then they don't want migrant kids, but Mo / Emma are different. Its the same mindset as the "I don't like blacks but Frank Bruno is alright as he's world champion" comments you'd hear in the past. It'll never go away sadly.

    How about - radical idea - we accept migrants as Brits if they self-identify as such. People like Emma Raducanu have a choice of nationalities and we should be delighted that they chose to be British. When people move to America for work so many of them naturalise - we could have been doing the same for the last few decades with Europeans instead of treating them with such disdain.
  • AlistairM said:

    Isn't in swings and roundabouts? In 2005, in England, the Tories received 35.7% of the vote compared to Labour on 35.4%. Yet Labour received 286 seats compared to 194 for the Tories. I don't really remember many complaints back then. Of course this foreshadowed what would come for Labour. By having such a big discrepancy between votes and seats it meant that it was always going to be near a tipping point where a swing of a couple of percentage points would make a big difference. Maybe the same will happen to the Liberals in Canada the next time around?
    There were lots of complaints back then because clearly Labour must be cheating. CCHQ did not initially understand voting efficiency and the futility of piling up huge majorities in the home counties.
  • Yes, that's a fair post - my objection is that the imbecile who wrote this falsely attributes national identity to racial purity (wrong, and offensive) and then says that nations are an illusion. In fact, that's really what he wanted to use her for given that's what he believed anyway and headlined his post with.

    I couldn't disagree with him more and have contempt for his views.

    I bet he's an arsehole in real life.
    To be fair, he did avoid describing Emma as a 'Hot Teen Girl'.
  • Because again it puts too much power in the hands of the parties. It is not even a case that we should be standing still on this. We should be actively reversing the ability of parties to coerce the individual representatives we elect. Moving to any system that is proportional based on party votes does yet more damage to democracy.
    So are you proposing that we have direct democracy where we abolish political parties? I am proposing a system that is proportional based on votes for the individual. Under STV-MMC you may well have 3 candidates from each party chasing the 3 seats available, but you vote for individuals not the party.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Perhaps Muay Thai for Britain and cricket for Thailand to maximise opportunities?
    Cricket possibly; both girls so Muay Thai's unlikely.
    Actually, one was very taken by cricket when watching the Thai ladies in the Womens World Cup.
    Trouble is that thanks to Covid there's been very little school sport for them recently.
  • My daughter's school recently had sports day, postponed from the end of last year so parents could come without restrictions.

    First to third in every event got a sticker, at the end of the day my daughter asked why some of her friends got lots of stickers and she didn't get any. But she understood that she didn't win the race and that's ok. We were proud of her that she tried her best even if she didn't win the race.

    My primary school had an "all must get prizes" mentality and it's unhealthy. I'm glad that her school doesn't and I'm hoping it's something schools have put behind them.

    It's incredible that some people think "all must get prizes" should apply to democracy too. If the likes of UKIP lose every race they compete in, then they lost fair and square. Maybe they should work to try and win next time, not change the system so all get prizes just for taking part?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    It would be interesting to learn what Emma believes
    Training and practising hard?
  • Happy little soul, aren't you. I might, and do, disagree with you on occasion, but when I have actually been rude to you.
    I'm not the one trying to abuse and exploit Emma for my own political ends. I find that extremely rude, and the post itself is softly bigoted.

    If you find it "helpful and refreshing" then, yes, I'm afraid you do have moronic views.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,563

    Why should they be represented? They lost.

    If UKIP wanted representatives they'd have to convince the plurality of voters in a constituency to vote for them. They failed to do so.
    Well of course they didn't lose. As the most successful political pressure group in recent political history they got exactly what they wanted. They agitated for a particular policy and it was granted to them by the government of the day.

    As to the electoral implications of that - ie formal vs "informal" influence, I think people are happy with FPTP and while it may be imperfect, it is our imperfect and as you say, all a party needs to do if it wants actually to be in government is to convince enough people in each constituency to vote for them.
  • Why should they be represented? They lost.

    If UKIP wanted representatives they'd have to convince the plurality of voters in a constituency to vote for them. They failed to do so.
    It depends on how high up the chain we want to focus the plurality. Here and now you are absolutely right. There is no general election, merely 650 simultaneous local ones. The problem is that as soon as people vote for their individual candidate in their individual seat everyone - the candidates, the parties and the voters - assume they have voted for something nationally.

    You and I know they haven't. But they believe they have and won't be told otherwise. So we can change the electoral system to represent what people want and think they have, or keep getting these skewed national results.
  • Financial. I firmly believe that the era of tidal is coming because the other generating costs are going up. I also think there is a huge green blob that hates the idea of tidal lagoons as there will be impact on the natural world. Like nuclear, they want us not to use certain solutions to avoiding climate change, and I think would prefer us all to starve, neuter ourselves and go extinct.
    "neuter ourselves and go extinct."

    Now we're talking!

    Definitely the best option for the planet.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    IIRC there was debate about the late Senator McCain's right to stand, as he was born in an offshore US in (again IIRC) Panama.
    Even if Boris were able to un-renounce and be deemed to have regained or never have lost his natural-born citizenship,, the qualification everyone forgets for POTUS is fourteen years residency in the US. It does not have to be the fourteen years immediately prior to election or taking office, but I don’t think he would come close to that even if the US overturned his renunciation today.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    So are you proposing that we have direct democracy where we abolish political parties? I am proposing a system that is proportional based on votes for the individual. Under STV-MMC you may well have 3 candidates from each party chasing the 3 seats available, but you vote for individuals not the party.
    The Irish seem to manage STV very well, with Independents getting elected as well as party apparatchiks.

    One of the problems in this country is that the local Party committee in a 'safe seat' is, effectively, the 'electorate'.
  • What do think about constituencies like Ynys Mon, where the candidate who comes first (of four) rarely has much more than 30-35% of the vote.
    If that's their choice, that's their choice. Every candidate starts with zero votes every election.

    If an alternative candidate arose capable of winning 37% in those circumstances they'd be the winner. That they haven't just shows that the duly elected candidate was still the most popular after all.
  • I imagine you haven't bothered watching BBC's submerged drama Vigil (if not, don't worry, it's overheated rubbish), but the sub interiors look incredibly sanitised, more like the shiny office of a tech company than a barrel for sweaty ratings. Is that representative of the modern Silent Service experience
    Channel 5 have a documentary series on life aboard UK subs - didn't look remotely sanitised!

    https://www.my5.tv/on-board-britain-s-nuclear-submarine-trident

    https://www.my5.tv/submarine-life-under-the-waves
  • Woah, hold on. The Left *love* to put people in boxes, provided it's a race, gender, or sexuality box. In fact, that's accelerated: what they hate is the national identity box, and to a lesser extent the religious box, as they view it as false consciousness.

    But if your argument is that people can chose their identity then you can't fundamentally advocate they can pick their sex and gender identity but cannot do so for national identity as well because it's all a personal choice.

    Personally I think national Identity will always be relevant and complimentary with others, as will religious identity, and I see no evidence whatever that will ever end. It's complex: people can have overlapping and complimentary identities, and emphasise some of them to greater degrees than others, but it's about to what and to whom you feel allegiance with - and it's absolutely not racially bound.

    This post by this Professor isn't a progressive post; it's a highly regressive one.
    I think I agree with all of that, but maybe my reading of the thing you quoted is different from yours. I read it as saying that people can have multiple and overlapping identities like you say, and to claim that someone like Raducanu is 100% one thing is kind of pointless. She has links to a number of countries, like a lot of people do. Not knowing her personally or having heard her opine on the subject, but knowing other young people in SE London with parental links outside the UK and/or born outside the UK, I would assume she identifies most with the UK. (This is why I disagree strongly with the policy of stripping people of UK citizenship based on sometimes tenuous links to their countries, incidentally).
    Identity politics on the Left I tend to see more as a response to prejudice and barriers that specific groups face, rather than a desire to put people in boxes. I guess I can see how it might look like the latter, especially for people who think that things like institutional/structural racism aren't a thing. Whether it is ultimately helpful or not is a different question, but I think the motivation is understandable.
  • It's a bit wanky but also seems fundamentally true. Some people like to put themselves in boxes, and to put other people in boxes. Others don't. Right now the putting people in boxes crowd is fighting a pretty successful rear-guard action, but I suspect and hope that in the long run they will lose. The future is global, and the people who succeed will be the ones who are willing to embrace that.
    At risk of missing the point, is the good professor right in claiming that Emma Raducanu can speak Romanian? Here are short videos (under a minute combined) proving Emma can speak Mandarin and knows at least two of the words to Sweet Caroline but I cannot find Romanian.
    https://twitter.com/ESPNUK/status/1437038359575253003
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq1xM87Rk7w
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,287
    .

    Whether he is a natural citizen would need to be tested in court, or by Congress. He could raise hundreds of millions well before it ever got to that stage....
    Not if he's not a citizen.
    That would raise another set of issues...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    I'm not the one trying to abuse and exploit Emma for my own political ends. I find that extremely rude, and the post itself is softly bigoted.

    If you find it "helpful and refreshing" then, yes, I'm afraid you do have moronic views.
    I certainly wouldn't try to ' abuse and exploit Emma for my own political ends'. The fact is that as a result of globalisation she's got a very diverse background, and seeing that recognised is good.
    I find it quite amusing to see various nationalists tying themselves in knots trying to 'claim' her.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,287

    Happy little soul, aren't you. I might, and do, disagree with you on occasion, but when I have actually been rude to you.
    I believe Casino was opining on the undesirability of abuse in politics, only yesterday.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,010

    Financial. I firmly believe that the era of tidal is coming because the other generating costs are going up. I also think there is a huge green blob that hates the idea of tidal lagoons as there will be impact on the natural world. Like nuclear, they want us not to use certain solutions to avoiding climate change, and I think would prefer us all to starve, neuter ourselves and go extinct.
    Tidal lagoons last a very very long time indeed - I think there's a penny rich pound poor mentality within Gov't about these sorts of things too.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,322

    It is fair. They just lost fair and square.
    No they didn't. You could easily get situations where in the towns party A gets a small majority of party B in all wards and outside of the town party C gets a small majority of party B in all the wards. So party B gets more votes and no seats and the two smaller parties split the council between them. How is that representative?

    You can then rearrange the ward boundaries and get a completely different set of result. It is just a lottery.

    Those Conservative voters in Liverpool (pick you own Lab/Con/LD dominated council) deserve fair representation.

    A democracy isn't just about the winner taking all, it is about fair representation of the voters.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,656
    edited September 2021

    Channel 5 have a documentary series on life aboard UK subs - didn't look remotely sanitised!

    https://www.my5.tv/on-board-britain-s-nuclear-submarine-trident

    https://www.my5.tv/submarine-life-under-the-waves
    Detecting and responding to the hidden Russian submarine was far more tense than anything Vigil managed.

    ETA Channel 5 has produced surprisingly good documentaries. It's not all Top 100 micro-celebrities.
  • The Irish seem to manage STV very well, with Independents getting elected as well as party apparatchiks.

    One of the problems in this country is that the local Party committee in a 'safe seat' is, effectively, the 'electorate'.
    And that is something FPTP embeds. And when you end up with one party in power for a generation we get idiocy, corruption and waste.
  • Nigelb said:

    .

    Not if he's not a citizen.
    That would raise another set of issues...
    Issues for a normal person, sure, but not really for someone of his status. Wheels will be greased and it might take a bit of time, but if ever he really wants to be a US citizen again, he will be.
  • I think I agree with all of that, but maybe my reading of the thing you quoted is different from yours. I read it as saying that people can have multiple and overlapping identities like you say, and to claim that someone like Raducanu is 100% one thing is kind of pointless. She has links to a number of countries, like a lot of people do. Not knowing her personally or having heard her opine on the subject, but knowing other young people in SE London with parental links outside the UK and/or born outside the UK, I would assume she identifies most with the UK. (This is why I disagree strongly with the policy of stripping people of UK citizenship based on sometimes tenuous links to their countries, incidentally).
    Identity politics on the Left I tend to see more as a response to prejudice and barriers that specific groups face, rather than a desire to put people in boxes. I guess I can see how it might look like the latter, especially for people who think that things like institutional/structural racism aren't a thing. Whether it is ultimately helpful or not is a different question, but I think the motivation is understandable.
    He literally titles his post the "illusion of nations". He then ends it by saying "national identities are fading" and that Emma is "the future of humankind".

    At no point does he even make a hat-tip to what Emma herself might think - he simply co-opts his own to her to make his point.

    His motivation is very clear.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,399
    edited September 2021

    My daughter's school recently had sports day, postponed from the end of last year so parents could come without restrictions.

    First to third in every event got a sticker, at the end of the day my daughter asked why some of her friends got lots of stickers and she didn't get any. But she understood that she didn't win the race and that's ok. We were proud of her that she tried her best even if she didn't win the race.

    My primary school had an "all must get prizes" mentality and it's unhealthy. I'm glad that her school doesn't and I'm hoping it's something schools have put behind them.

    It's incredible that some people think "all must get prizes" should apply to democracy too. If the likes of UKIP lose every race they compete in, then they lost fair and square. Maybe they should work to try and win next time, not change the system so all get prizes just for taking part?

    The point is that UKIP's voice is lost in subsequent debates within Parliament when decisions are made.

    Now that may or may not be a good thing but it's worth emphasising that FPTP can result in a sanitised voice that doesn't reflect significant parts of the electorate.

    And it's possible that had UKIPs views been heard within Parliament the electorate may have voted differently when Brexit gave them the opportunity to vote "F*** the current system".
  • The Irish seem to manage STV very well, with Independents getting elected as well as party apparatchiks.

    One of the problems in this country is that the local Party committee in a 'safe seat' is, effectively, the 'electorate'.
    With STV it is the 'excess votes' thing that I can't get my head around. Which votes are the excess? Do they just scoop up a pile of ballots and reallocate them or is there some kind of statistical analysis performed to determine the proportion that should go to each of the other remaining candidates? And when we get down to the 16th round of counting can they really be sure that ballots are being relocated correctly?

    I want PR, but favour the simplicity of d'Hondt. The order of candidates for each party to be determined by primaries of party members.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,287
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    The only action I have seen is "have consulted very early with the IAEA".

    https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/iaea-on-trilateral-effort-of-australia-united-kingdom-and-united-states-on-nuclear-naval-propulsion

    Does it count as proliferation if they rent the reactors?

    It's the IAEA annual meeting at the moment, so they are probably talking about it.

    No, as there is a loophole in the Non Proliferation Treaty from the outset. it's bee an issue for decades:
    https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/sp6/files/jnmm-philippe-2014.pdf
    There seems to have been a tacit understanding not to export nuclear subs (or it just hasn't been in the nuclear powers interests), until now.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    He literally titles his post the "illusion of nations". He then ends it by saying "national identities are fading" and that Emma is "the future of humankind".

    At no point does he even make a hat-tip to what Emma herself might think - he simply co-opts his own to her to make his point.

    His motivation is very clear.
    To be fair, the point about lack of mention about what the young lady herself might think is reasonable.
    The oldest of my half-Thai grandchildren, at 15, is starting to think seriously about her heritages.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,322
    kjh said:

    No they didn't. You could easily get situations where in the towns party A gets a small majority of party B in all wards and outside of the town party C gets a small majority of party B in all the wards. So party B gets more votes and no seats and the two smaller parties split the council between them. How is that representative?

    You can then rearrange the ward boundaries and get a completely different set of result. It is just a lottery.

    Those Conservative voters in Liverpool (pick you own Lab/Con/LD dominated council) deserve fair representation.

    A democracy isn't just about the winner taking all, it is about fair representation of the voters.
    @Nigelb I withdraw my response to your post earlier. I realise from my last post that your point was a really spot on observation and my reply naive. What matters is not what is fair to the political party but what is fair to the voters.
  • I certainly wouldn't try to ' abuse and exploit Emma for my own political ends'. The fact is that as a result of globalisation she's got a very diverse background, and seeing that recognised is good.
    I find it quite amusing to see various nationalists tying themselves in knots trying to 'claim' her.
    Who are these "nationalists" you speak of that are trying to "claim" her? You mean people celebrating the fact that someone British who's proudly competing as a Briton has secured a British win? Because if you do, then you're saying most of the population here are "nationalist" on the basis that someone with mixed ancestry must always be seen as a migrant first, and a Briton second. I find that offensive.

    The only ones doing the claiming here are the softly-bigoted progressive Left.

    I went to an international school. My sister was born in Canada. My parents were born in India. I have half-British/half-Columbian cousins. My Uncle lives in Australia. My other cousin married a Kenyan lady. My wife is Bulgarian. My daughter is British, but with Bulgarian ancestry too, and I have other family members who married fellow Britons too.

    It might surprise you to we all celebrated Emma's win, and we all have an affection for the UK and common roots here too.

    There's nothing exclusive or anachronistic about national identity, and long may it remain so.
  • eek said:

    The point is that UKIP's voice is lost in subsequent debates within Parliament when decisions are made.

    Now that may or may not be a good thing but it's worth emphasising that FPTP can result in a sanitised voice that doesn't reflect significant parts of the electorate.

    And it's possible that had UKIPs views been heard within Parliament the electorate may have voted differently when Brexit gave them the opportunity to vote "F*** the current system".
    Was it sanitised though? Was it lost though? Perhaps when it came to the extreme racist elements those weren't there but when it came to the sensible parts of their platform like debating Brexit that view absolutely was represented in Parliament.

    Because FPTP ensures we get big tent politics not homogeneity, so the major parties need to appeal to other strands of view in order to continue to win or they'll lose and be displaced.

    An irony is that PR can sanitise politics. Because under PR its possible that UKIP would be elected as a minority but be political "untouchables" nobody aligns with and so despite Brexit being a view of the majority of the nation we might have ended up with them being excluded as the Tories may not have been seeking to win those votes anymore. And needing to be more loyal to the whip due to the much greater power parties have over MPs in PR.
  • Thats what you get when stopping migration is and has been the singular political issue of this generation. People don't want migrants, especially those seen as low skilled and definitely don't want their kids. Until the kids grow up to become a world champion runner or tennis sensation.

    Then they don't want migrant kids, but Mo / Emma are different. Its the same mindset as the "I don't like blacks but Frank Bruno is alright as he's world champion" comments you'd hear in the past. It'll never go away sadly.

    How about - radical idea - we accept migrants as Brits if they self-identify as such. People like Emma Raducanu have a choice of nationalities and we should be delighted that they chose to be British. When people move to America for work so many of them naturalise - we could have been doing the same for the last few decades with Europeans instead of treating them with such disdain.
    This old canard. Most people want controlled migration - neither no migration or uncontrolled migration.

    Why is that so hard to understand?
  • He literally titles his post the "illusion of nations". He then ends it by saying "national identities are fading" and that Emma is "the future of humankind".

    At no point does he even make a hat-tip to what Emma herself might think - he simply co-opts his own to her to make his point.

    His motivation is very clear.
    Like I said earlier, I think his post is wanky but fundamentally true. At the end of the day, the nation is simply a social construct. It has its uses as a means of ordering society and international affairs, but for many people it is only a part of their identity. It's why I found Theresa May's Citizens of Nowhere speech so stupid and so objectionable. Yes, I have more in common with a liberal, educated person in Sweden, or the US, or even India or Iran, than I do with many of my fellow-citizens. Why is that a problem? Or to put it differently, why is the solution to this problem for me to pretend that it isn't true?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,287

    Issues for a normal person, sure, but not really for someone of his status. Wheels will be greased and it might take a bit of time, but if ever he really wants to be a US citizen again, he will be.
    I meant the issues around fundraising as a foreign national.
    Foreign nationals are allowed to undertake some political actions in the U.S., as long as those actions are not "connected with any election to political office at the federal, state, or local levels." For example, an FEC advisory opinion (the FEC’s interpretation of the Federal Election Campaign Act, which it is charged with administering), established that foreign nationals may underwrite issue-oriented ads as long as they do not mention "candidates, political offices, political parties, incumbent federal officeholders or any past or future election."..
  • GlomGlom Posts: 13

    My daughter's school recently had sports day, postponed from the end of last year so parents could come without restrictions.

    First to third in every event got a sticker, at the end of the day my daughter asked why some of her friends got lots of stickers and she didn't get any. But she understood that she didn't win the race and that's ok. We were proud of her that she tried her best even if she didn't win the race.

    My primary school had an "all must get prizes" mentality and it's unhealthy. I'm glad that her school doesn't and I'm hoping it's something schools have put behind them.

    It's incredible that some people think "all must get prizes" should apply to democracy too. If the likes of UKIP lose every race they compete in, then they lost fair and square. Maybe they should work to try and win next time, not change the system so all get prizes just for taking part?

    Is democracy a sport? I guess on a site about gambling on it like a sport, it might seem that way.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    Financial. I firmly believe that the era of tidal is coming because the other generating costs are going up. I also think there is a huge green blob that hates the idea of tidal lagoons as there will be impact on the natural world. Like nuclear, they want us not to use certain solutions to avoiding climate change, and I think would prefer us all to starve, neuter ourselves and go extinct.
    Yes. Tidal lagoons would impact on the breeding ground of the lesser spotted whelk. = evil.
  • To be fair, the point about lack of mention about what the young lady herself might think is reasonable.
    The oldest of my half-Thai grandchildren, at 15, is starting to think seriously about her heritages.
    As the world's population travel more and become more educated and integrated the ideas of national identity and particularly nationalism (with it's emphasis on exceptionalism - insert British, French Scottish, whatever), become to appear more absurd. It is a deliberately provocative post, and it proves people can have more than one allegiance, and for that reason it is a good post. The fact that it hasn't had more swivel-eyed frothing from right wingers who want to make themselves look silly is a little disappointing, but it might just be that there are not too many Col Blimps with LinkedIn accounts.
  • Glom said:

    Is democracy a sport? I guess on a site about gambling on it like a sport, it might seem that way.
    Yes. Hence the term First Past The Post.

    That doesn't mean you have to back "your team" through thick and thin though but some people do of course.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,287
    kjh said:

    @Nigelb I withdraw my response to your post earlier. I realise from my last post that your point was a really spot on observation and my reply naive. What matters is not what is fair to the political party but what is fair to the voters.
    I wouldn't call it naive, as it's a mindset which is very common in those who follow politics. I guess I'm slightly immune to it, as I'm not very enthusiastic about any of our political parties.
  • As the world's population travel more and become more educated and integrated the ideas of national identity and particularly nationalism (with it's emphasis on exceptionalism - insert British, French Scottish, whatever), become to appear more absurd. It is a deliberately provocative post, and it proves people can have more than one allegiance, and for that reason it is a good post. The fact that it hasn't had more swivel-eyed frothing from right wingers who want to make themselves look silly is a little disappointing, but it might just be that there are not too many Col Blimps with LinkedIn accounts.
    Do you advocate a single global state? If not, then you need to rethink your assumptions because that's the logic of your position.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771
    edited September 2021

    Financial. I firmly believe that the era of tidal is coming because the other generating costs are going up. I also think there is a huge green blob that hates the idea of tidal lagoons as there will be impact on the natural world. Like nuclear, they want us not to use certain solutions to avoiding climate change, and I think would prefer us all to starve, neuter ourselves and go extinct.
    Evidence that the other generating costs are going up?

    US numbers, but other renewables are what it is up against:


    The last data I saw for the Wales proposals required subsidy for the best part of a century. May be getting there; not there yet.
  • Mr. Foremain, national identities are no small thing.

    Deride them if you like, but what do you have without a nation?

    And if you replace the European nations with the EU, all you've done is make another nation.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,563

    Do you advocate a single global state? If not, then you need to rethink your assumptions because that's the logic of your position.
    What would be the downsides of a single global state?
  • Mr. Topping, depends. Does it have a government like China or North Korea?
  • To be fair, the point about lack of mention about what the young lady herself might think is reasonable.
    The oldest of my half-Thai grandchildren, at 15, is starting to think seriously about her heritages.
    Thank you. And I'm sorry for being rude to you.

    The reason this has riled me is that we've come a long way in moving past nationality = ethnicity, and it frustrates me that people pushing this line from a 'progressive' angle can't see that it can be used by the far-right the other way round too, whilst needlessly aggravating their own citizenry who cherish the inclusive and patriotic modern Britain we've painstakingly built in recent decades.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771
    Nigelb said:

    No, as there is a loophole in the Non Proliferation Treaty from the outset. it's bee an issue for decades:
    https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/sp6/files/jnmm-philippe-2014.pdf
    There seems to have been a tacit understanding not to export nuclear subs (or it just hasn't been in the nuclear powers interests), until now.
    They could tag it monitoring via GPS :smile:
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921

    This old canard. Most people want controlled migration - neither no migration or uncontrolled migration.

    Why is that so hard to understand?
    People don’t want to understand they just want to apply their personal prejudices to a debate. Migration is not a binary all or nothing choice. People support migration. During the referendum The leave campaign made it clear they would rather have skilled migrants from commonwealth countries than unskilled migrants from the EU. It was the controlled element some people wilfully misrepresent.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921

    Yes. Hence the term First Past The Post.

    That doesn't mean you have to back "your team" through thick and thin though but some people do of course.
    Or back them through thin and thin in the case of Newcastle
  • As the world's population travel more and become more educated and integrated the ideas of national identity and particularly nationalism (with it's emphasis on exceptionalism - insert British, French Scottish, whatever), become to appear more absurd. It is a deliberately provocative post, and it proves people can have more than one allegiance, and for that reason it is a good post. The fact that it hasn't had more swivel-eyed frothing from right wingers who want to make themselves look silly is a little disappointing, but it might just be that there are not too many Col Blimps with LinkedIn accounts.
    No, that doesn't follow. I'd turn it around: it's the preponderance of national identities, languages, cultures and religions that make the world such a diverse and interesting place.

    Why would we want to turn it into a uniform globalist mush?

    Your argument makes sense in terms of appreciating other people's point of view and different ways of doing things, it doesn't make them irrelevant.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,986
    edited September 2021
    Don't get complacent Londoners, I believe she's still on the board of the British Museum. Anyone checked their sprinkler system recently?



    https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1440235635285979136?s=20
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274

    Who are these "nationalists" you speak of that are trying to "claim" her? You mean people celebrating the fact that someone British who's proudly competing as a Briton has secured a British win? Because if you do, then you're saying most of the population here are "nationalist" on the basis that someone with mixed ancestry must always be seen as a migrant first, and a Briton second. I find that offensive.

    The only ones doing the claiming here are the softly-bigoted progressive Left.

    I went to an international school. My sister was born in Canada. My parents were born in India. I have half-British/half-Columbian cousins. My Uncle lives in Australia. My other cousin married a Kenyan lady. My wife is Bulgarian. My daughter is British, but with Bulgarian ancestry too, and I have other family members who married fellow Britons too.

    It might surprise you to we all celebrated Emma's win, and we all have an affection for the UK and common roots here too.

    There's nothing exclusive or anachronistic about national identity, and long may it remain so.
    I think we are beginning to dance around the head of a pin. I agree that 'There's nothing exclusive or anachronistic about national identity', provided that it doesn't lead to hostility to those whose national identity is different. My back story isn't as cosmopolitan as yours, but I've got relations in other countries and both my sons spent part of their Uni courses outside the UK.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,771
    TOPPING said:

    What would be the downsides of a single global state?
    I guess it would be the difficulty of maintaining a proper degree of understanding of local needs at the central level. The necessary devolution of responsibility would probably make it start to look remarkably like the current set of nation states and local fiefdoms we have now, but from a top-down rather than middle-out starting point.
  • Taz said:

    Or back them through thin and thin in the case of Newcastle
    Or back them through thick and thick in the case of [that's enough ~ ed]
  • Mr. Foremain, national identities are no small thing.

    Deride them if you like, but what do you have without a nation?

    And if you replace the European nations with the EU, all you've done is make another nation.

    I don't deride them, I am very proud to be English, and British with part Irish heritage. It makes me what I am. I have never been bothered to call myself "European" like some of my continental friends. I feel no need to wrap myself in a flag, because quite frankly, without going into details I have done more for my country than many, but a lot less than some.

    What I dislike is divisive small minded nationalism. Anyone frothing at that post is quite simply small minded. There is logic in it and anyone offended really needs to travel a bit more.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,504
    mwadams said:

    I guess it would be the difficulty of maintaining a proper degree of understanding of local needs at the central level. The necessary devolution of responsibility would probably make it start to look remarkably like the current set of nation states and local fiefdoms we have now, but from a top-down rather than middle-out starting point.
    To me, the biggest problem with One World Government is what happens if Donald Trump Part Deux (or worse) gets elected...
  • Do you advocate a single global state? If not, then you need to rethink your assumptions because that's the logic of your position.
    No, no, and no. I leave changing assumptions and turning logic on its head to experts like yourself.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,504

    Mr. Topping, depends. Does it have a government like China or North Korea?

    What about sensible dictator backed by an army of giant, mutant fish?
  • I think we are beginning to dance around the head of a pin. I agree that 'There's nothing exclusive or anachronistic about national identity', provided that it doesn't lead to hostility to those whose national identity is different. My back story isn't as cosmopolitan as yours, but I've got relations in other countries and both my sons spent part of their Uni courses outside the UK.
    Thanks. My background is very imperial, actually.

    Both my grandparents served in the Indian Army, and my two Uncles (different sides of the family) in the RAN and the Canadian Army, as well as my cousin in the British Army. So we feel strong links to India, Australia and Canada, as well as the UK - several of us have little time for the EU but lots for the Commonwealth.

    It's amazing how much has changed in just one lifetime, but there are lots of shared bonds and values there still too.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,354

    "neuter ourselves and go extinct."

    Now we're talking!

    Definitely the best option for the planet.
    In some ways yes - a return to the days before man, and allow the natural world to go on about its natural way for ever, or until the heat death of the exploding sun. The sadness would be no-one to see the beauty or record things passing. How many species that have walked the earth are now extinct? Vitrtually all of them, and only we know. Does you dog care for a nice sunset, or the delicate shape of a dahlia? Does a fish wonder what came before, or after?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Who are these "nationalists" you speak of that are trying to "claim" her? You mean people celebrating the fact that someone British who's proudly competing as a Briton has secured a British win? Because if you do, then you're saying most of the population here are "nationalist" on the basis that someone with mixed ancestry must always be seen as a migrant first, and a Briton second. I find that offensive.

    The only ones doing the claiming here are the softly-bigoted progressive Left.

    I went to an international school. My sister was born in Canada. My parents were born in India. I have half-British/half-Columbian cousins. My Uncle lives in Australia. My other cousin married a Kenyan lady. My wife is Bulgarian. My daughter is British, but with Bulgarian ancestry too, and I have other family members who married fellow Britons too.

    It might surprise you to we all celebrated Emma's win, and we all have an affection for the UK and common roots here too.

    There's nothing exclusive or anachronistic about national identity, and long may it remain so.
    Linkedin = woke propoganda feed. It is only good for professional news, it is not a good gauge of public opinion.

    However, national identity is rooted very deeply in the human psyche. It cannot be deconstructed to nothing as Prof Gianosso and his fellow woke propogandists desperately hope. Nationalism is very much alive, particularly in supposedly progressive countries. Look at Scotland for example. There is a definite birther movement there, that has in the past revealed itself in comments on this website.

    My own life experience living in supposedly progressive european countries (and not really amongst the woke elite) is that Nationalism is very much in existence, and that I would be accepted as a guest but would never be regarded as one of them.

    In the end I have come to believe that Britain is unique in being able to successfully absorb immigrants within its national identity; but it is the exception rather than the rule; a historical abberation. It is this quality that many people around the world admire. This realisation was a turning point - it made me proud to be British.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,771

    To me, the biggest problem with One World Government is what happens if Donald Trump Part Deux (or worse) gets elected...
    There's a heck of an upheaval while all the Regional Proconsuls (or whatever we call them) decide where their loyalties lie.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274
    Taz said:

    People don’t want to understand they just want to apply their personal prejudices to a debate. Migration is not a binary all or nothing choice. People support migration. During the referendum The leave campaign made it clear they would rather have skilled migrants from commonwealth countries than unskilled migrants from the EU. It was the controlled element some people wilfully misrepresent.
    ... SOME of the Leave campaign ..... I suggest

    Some didn't want any migration at all!
  • As the world's population travel more and become more educated and integrated the ideas of national identity and particularly nationalism (with it's emphasis on exceptionalism - insert British, French Scottish, whatever), become to appear more absurd. It is a deliberately provocative post, and it proves people can have more than one allegiance, and for that reason it is a good post. The fact that it hasn't had more swivel-eyed frothing from right wingers who want to make themselves look silly is a little disappointing, but it might just be that there are not too many Col Blimps with LinkedIn accounts.
    You claim to be against nationalism but you seem to be an extremely ardent nationalist yourself. Just a European nationalist.

    Yesterday you quoted Thatcher referring to getting free trade with the world's richest nations, richer even than the USA, but when it was pointed out that in the interceding decades that had changed and the richest nations and people of the world aren't European anymore and we should embrace the globe not a parochial part of it ... That doesn't compute for you.

    You're every bit as self righteous a nationalist as malcolmg. Rude to anyone who sees the world differently. You've simply embraced Europe as your nation instead of Scotland.

    The world is a very big place. Much bigger than England, Scotland or Europe.
  • This old canard. Most people want controlled migration - neither no migration or uncontrolled migration.

    Why is that so hard to understand?
    I entirely get it! Its just that most people don't. They might say "I want controlled migration" but when you then ask which migrants they want to keep they can't answer you. Nor can the government, as the "let people in that we need" argument is being ignored for care homes factories tourism and logistics.

    I specifically mentioned kids. The "old canard" is the anti-migration argument that foreign kids block up school places and are a burden. Emma Raducanu was 2. We like her because she's a British tennis sensation. But how do we know which migrant kids can be the same and which will be a burden?

    When we aren't letting people in even when we need them, how can you say "controlled migration" is relevant when we're talking about a 2 year old? How do we know if the child of the migrant we don't want is the next Sajid Javid or not?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,354
    MattW said:

    Evidence that the other generating costs are going up?

    US numbers, but other renewables are what it is up against:


    The last data I saw for the Wales proposals required subsidy for the best part of a century. May be getting there; not there yet.
    Should really compare with methods that are always available, as tidal is pretty predictable. Solar and wind are great, but do have weaknesses when the wind don't blow and the sun is below par. Solar is better on hot countries, and has been suggested is ideal for running air con, partly as the reason its needed is the sun...
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    'Those who want their party back'

    Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most Republican voters believe the election was stolen from Trump? Is anyone going to be able to change their mind on this? 14/1 may be generous but at the moment a Trump or Trumpian candidate looks likely.
  • darkage said:

    Linkedin = woke propoganda feed. It is only good for professional news, it is not a good gauge of public opinion.

    However, national identity is rooted very deeply in the human psyche. It cannot be deconstructed to nothing as Prof Gianosso and his fellow woke propogandists desperately hope. Nationalism is very much alive, particularly in supposedly progressive countries. Look at Scotland for example. There is a definite birther movement there, that has in the past revealed itself in comments on this website.

    My own life experience living in supposedly progressive european countries (and not really amongst the woke elite) is that Nationalism is very much in existence, and that I would be accepted as a guest but would never be regarded as one of them.

    In the end I have come to believe that Britain is unique in being able to successfully absorb immigrants within its national identity; but it is the exception rather than the rule; a historical abberation. It is this quality that many people around the world admire. This realisation was a turning point - it made me proud to be British.
    Yes, I agree. Good post.

    I think it's also the case on LinkedIn that those who disagree (like me) simply don't say anything. To do so would be to risk a pile on that would probably be fatal to my professional career, and it would be broadcast to your whole network at the same time.

    That's why I'm venting on here instead.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,137
    eek said:

    Why - I suspect Emma's viewpoint would be based on marketing / PR advice nowadays.

    The truth is that all children are the product of their parents beliefs and attitudes attached to the opportunities that were available to them.

    Her latest Insta update is her formally announcing the Tiffany deal after wearing their stuff during the final
  • I entirely get it! Its just that most people don't. They might say "I want controlled migration" but when you then ask which migrants they want to keep they can't answer you. Nor can the government, as the "let people in that we need" argument is being ignored for care homes factories tourism and logistics.

    I specifically mentioned kids. The "old canard" is the anti-migration argument that foreign kids block up school places and are a burden. Emma Raducanu was 2. We like her because she's a British tennis sensation. But how do we know which migrant kids can be the same and which will be a burden?

    When we aren't letting people in even when we need them, how can you say "controlled migration" is relevant when we're talking about a 2 year old? How do we know if the child of the migrant we don't want is the next Sajid Javid or not?
    Ultimately, you have to accept some rules and rules-of-thumb to balance all the factors: rules on the type and mix of migration, and a cap on the overall numbers that commands public support.

    Will some worthy cases fall on the wrong side of that?

    Sure they will, but you have to draw the line somewhere and the alternative is to have no line at all, which won't command public support nor be sustainable.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,814

    To me, the biggest problem with One World Government is what happens if Donald Trump Part Deux (or worse) gets elected...
    Monopoly of government seems little different to a monopoly of industry. Avoid.
  • Taz said:

    People don’t want to understand they just want to apply their personal prejudices to a debate. Migration is not a binary all or nothing choice. People support migration. During the referendum The leave campaign made it clear they would rather have skilled migrants from commonwealth countries than unskilled migrants from the EU. It was the controlled element some people wilfully misrepresent.
    The opportunity to demonstrate how much people want migration is now. We have unfillable vacancies in critical things we need. The solution is migration and yet the government are not opening the door to controlled migration from any location to fill the vacancies. Why not?

    To go back to Emma Raducanu she does rather make my point. Migration is a binary choice - do we let this person in or not? I assume that we would be happy to let a 2 year old migrate here now with banker parents. Does their career determine her potential? How about if Emma Raducanu 2037 wants to arrives here now with a Romanian parent who will drive a truck? She woudn't be allowed in.

    So yes to a points based system and choices. We need people now, we aren't letting them in.
This discussion has been closed.