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Davey reminds us of the threat his party poses in “blue wall” seats – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,347
    Essexit said:

    Ed Davey's interview with Marr this morning was interesting, and not good for Davey / the Lib Dems.

    Marr pointed out that the candidate in Chesham and Amersham had won by going against national Lib Dem positions on planning and HS2. On the former Davey mounted his own rather half-hearted attack on the planning reforms, without explaining what the Lib Dem alternative to fix housing supply is. On the latter, he argued that Sarah Green had the same stance as Cheryl Gillan, as if this was a relevant point. Clearly the Lib Dems can win by-elections by taking different and contradictory positions according to the circumstances of the place, but the tactic isn't as applicable to general elections.

    On trans rights, and being asked why a member was disciplined for wearing a 'Woman: adult human female' t-shirt, his response was to blame Boris Johnson for 'toxifying the debate', which is odd as I can't recall Johnson mentioning the trans/sex-based rights issue once in his premiership. He also confirmed the Lib Dem position as one which would allow people to identify their way into spaces intended for the opposite sex, which goes down like a cup of cold sick with a lot of women.

    Finally, Davey just doesn't look or sound like a party leader. There's no fire in his belly. He makes SKS look exciting.

    I'd have thought he was a good leader for the task ahead - win enough Con seats in affluent Remainer areas to put Keir Starmer in Number 10.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970

    Hmm. I wonder how much influence Carrie had over the setting up of AUUKUS. The Australian Liberal Party has traditionally been the most climate-sceptic in the western world. They'll be under huge pressure to subscribe to Biden's environmental policies now that he and Boris/Carrie have so much power over their military. Same goes with the Tory Right here - they can hardly start lambasting the green agenda when it's their man Uncle Joe who's pushing it. Carrie might just have played a blinder here.

    You'll like this

    The opinion of a national Italian newspaper

    "Boris Johnson, your Brexit is a triumph: because an isolated EU has realized it has lost"

    "Whoever emerges triumphant from this new alliance is certainly Boris Johnson who attributes a strong geostrategic sense to Brexit, giving the United Kingdom a diplomatic and military leadership that it hadn't had for a long time. "

    https://www.liberoquotidiano.it/news/europa/28734369/boris-johnson-brexit-trionfo-perche-ue-isolata-capito-aver-perso.html
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    So the issue is with cocks rather than biology?
    You think the cock is a cultural construct? Mine is biological af.
  • Let me simplify

    “Women only spaces should not be open to trans women with penises”
    How about those who are transitioning, and have to live as a woman for two years before the op?

    " the panel must be satisfied that you have lived in your true gender for two years before you make your application"
    https://www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/changing-your-legal-gender-in-the-uk
  • She's picking on the wrong party. If you want ansty screaming matches about trans rights like its the most important issue bar Palestine, the Labour conference is next week.
    I had no view on this matter until I heard Ed Davey this morning shocking silence when asked how he has allowed an activist to be banned from the party for 10 years for wearing a T shirt
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    IshmaelZ said:

    You think the cock is a cultural construct? Mine is biological af.
    Well I was born a man. If i cut off my penis would I be allowed in a woman only space in @CarlottaVance ’s world?

    If so, then its not about biology but merely about presence of a penis, which is different isn’t it. Should be honest about it.

    I will continue my position of not expressing a definitive opinion on the matter as I feel it is not my place.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,401

    Let me simplify

    “Women only spaces should not be open to trans women with penises”
    Are gay men to be banned from men’s changing rooms because they have penises and the straight men in there have anuses?

    (I ask this in a neutral way — I am actually sympathetic to your position…)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771
    edited September 2021

    It was a simple question put to him by Marr

    And do you know how much homeowners have availed themselves of the scheme

    12. ECO currently places an obligation on larger energy suppliers to achieve carbon and notional
    bill savings by promoting and installing energy efficiency measures into domestic homes. Since
    its introduction, ECO has delivered over 2.3m measures to over 1.8m homes

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/749638/ECO_3_Final_Stage_IA__Final.pdf

    I believe that number is 2013-2018.

    A "measure" might be "insulating a loft" or "cavity wall insulation". My general experience is that simple stuff like 250mm loft insulation is free, whilst more complex stuff eg new boiler may be free for those earning benefits. But each energy company, and sometimes local bodies doing the work, have their own slightly variable rules.

    Certainly it is not big enough for everything that needs doing, but paying for improved efficiency by increasing bills is an excellent principle, and it is thought through and well-targeted mainly at Fuel Poverty and addressing the general targets of achieving Band E by last year, Band D by 2025, and Band C by 2030. These also regulate what can legally be rented out.

    There have been free advice lines around for most of the last decade, so if they haven't it's not anybody else's fault. It's a proven model that works.

    I have had about 4/5 houses done over a few years, and a couple of free boilers where tenants qualify, which leaves me headroom to spend money on making other things even better.

    Personally, I've been banging this drum loudly for 6 or 7 years, now, wherever I can.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,333
    edited September 2021
    Farooq said:

    More allegations about Prince Charles. Who would vote for this idiot if we had any say?

    He has done a great deal with the Princes trust and was fundraising for his charities, political parties have taken donations to party funds for honours for the last 100 years so I don't see why it is much different?
  • Toms said:

    We should be willing to pay more for food too: bring back mixed, even organic, farming and employ more people. Treat the earth with respect.

    P/S Reverend Sue, and others---good on yah.

    https://christianclimateaction.org/2021/03/18/revd-sue-parfitt-79-commits-contempt-of-court-over-climate-emergency/

    As organic farming needs more land use to produce food than we have available, it is (in my opinion) bollocks.
  • MattW said:

    12. ECO currently places an obligation on larger energy suppliers to achieve carbon and notional
    bill savings by promoting and installing energy efficiency measures into domestic homes. Since
    its introduction, ECO has delivered over 2.3m measures to over 1.8m homes

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/749638/ECO_3_Final_Stage_IA__Final.pdf

    A "measure" might be "insulating a loft" or "cavity wall insulation".

    I believe that number is 2013-2018, so certainly it is not big enough for everything that needs doing, but paying for improved efficiency by increasing bills is an excellent principle, and it is thought through and well-targeted mainly at Fuel Poverty and addressing the general targets of achieving Band E by last year, Band D by 2025, and Band C by 2030. These also regulate what can legally be rented out.

    There have been free advice lines around for most of the last decade, so if they haven't it's not anybody else's fault.

    I have had about 4/5 houses done over a few years, and a couple of free boilers where tenants qualify, which leaves me headroom to spend money on making other things even better.

    Personally, I've been banging this drum loudly for 6 or 7 years, now, wherever I can.
    Thank you for your answer
  • How about those who are transitioning, and have to live as a woman for two years before the op?

    " the panel must be satisfied that you have lived in your true gender for two years before you make your application"
    https://www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/changing-your-legal-gender-in-the-uk
    They should live as their gender but not be allowed into female-only spaces until after they've transitioned.

    If the rules need fixing to satisfy the panel with that easier, then that should be done rather than having safeguarding issues for women.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    I'm not against the idea; I'm not a very good swimmer, and I have other hobbies.

    I once spent a year walking around the coast. in all that time by the sea, including the scorchingly hot summer of 2003, I only took one dip in the sea, and also a loch on the same day.

    And had sex in the loch.

    Thinking about it, that's perhaps why I don't like wild swimming: who knows what other people have been up to in the water! ;)
    Nobody is forcing anyone to swim.

    The ludicrous obsession with wild swimming on this forum by people who have no apparent interest in wild swimming is utterly pathetic.

    If you don’t want to swim in open water, don’t swim in open water.

    It really is that simple.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907

    Nobody is forcing anyone to swim.

    The ludicrous obsession with wild swimming on this forum by people who have no apparent interest in wild swimming is utterly pathetic.

    If you don’t want to swim in open water, don’t swim in open water.

    It really is that simple.
    I dont think anyone really cares about wild swimming mate
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,333
    The LDs are Starmer's little helpers, reaching into posh parts of Surrey, Oxfordshire, Hampshire and Bucks Labour never could and if the Tories are deprived of a majority LD gains from the Tories in Remain parts of the Home Counties would be pivotal to that
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    An ex-colleague of mine was a rower on the Cam. A friend of his got very ill after a dunking with a waterborne disease (I cannot remember which one); the other crew in his eights were fine. This sort of thing can be distressingly random.
    Then stick to municipal swimming pools or your own bath. No risk taken, no harm done.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    As organic farming needs more land use to produce food than we have available, it is (in my opinion) bollocks.
    Esp the currently modish "woodland pasture" which cashes out at about 1 beast per 1,000 acres on land also needed for housing and rewilding and stuff like that. Lovely idea, not gonna happen.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,333
    RIP John Challis, aka Boycie, one of the great comic characters

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58617114
  • She's picking on the wrong party. If you want ansty screaming matches about trans rights like its the most important issue bar Palestine, the Labour conference is next week.
    To be fair, every party to the left of the Tories is getting itself into a right pickle over this.

    Goodness knows why.

    There must be an opportunity for a 'Women don't have cocks and tax the rich' party.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921
    HYUFD said:

    The LDs are Starmer's little helpers, reaching into posh parts of Surrey, Oxfordshire, Hampshire and Bucks Labour never could and if the Tories are deprived of a majority LD gains from the Tories in Remain parts of the Home Counties would be pivotal to that

    Of course. That’s the plan. Worked in 97 and what did Blair do to his Lib Dem helpers ?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Christ. Glamping. Another concept that should burn in hell for all eternity.

    If you don't want to rough it in a tent, stay in a fecking hotel.
    Again, you are at liberty to choose your own accommodation. Why do you seek to impose your preferences on others?
  • Christ. Glamping. Another concept that should burn in hell for all eternity.

    If you don't want to rough it in a tent, stay in a fecking hotel.
    A relative owns a campsite, and has a few glamping-style pods.

    We stayed in one for a night over the summer. It was a wonderful experience, considering Mrs J and nights under canvas don't get on. The little 'un loved it.

    Each to their own.

    One March, decades ago, I did a hike in Derbyshire, and stopped off at a campsite near Fenny Bentley. I had my teeny backpacking tent. Whilst I was cooking my food (on a Trangia), a car turned up at the pitch beside me, and a man put up a humongous tent whilst his companion watched. Then they had a small argument, and decamped to the nearest pub. Later their car returned, they gathered some stuff up, and left. The next morning, he turned up alone to take the tent down. She had got to the pub and refused to return to the tent, and they'd got a room instead...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907

    To be fair, every party to the left of the Tories is getting itself into a right pickle over this.

    Goodness knows why.

    There must be an opportunity for a 'Women don't have cocks and tax the rich' party.
    Isn’t that the Tory party?
  • Farooq said:

    "punitive" and "fair" are less helpful than actual numbers. Everyone's in favour of "fair" taxes!
    We haven't done an alternative budget. And as we aren't about to be in government we don't need to. This is about principles. Don't give a "read my lips no tax rises" pledge and then wham taxes up targeting the people who can least afford them. Doubly so when the excuse is "fix social care" knowing that it will not fix social care.~

    Not being a bastard is something worth voting for even if its only principles and your level of bastardity hasn't been fully costed
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921

    As organic farming needs more land use to produce food than we have available, it is (in my opinion) bollocks.
    But it commands a healthy premium. Ker ching.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921

    Well I was born a man. If i cut off my penis would I be allowed in a woman only space in @CarlottaVance ’s world?

    If so, then its not about biology but merely about presence of a penis, which is different isn’t it. Should be honest about it.

    I will continue my position of not expressing a definitive opinion on the matter as I feel it is not my place.
    For someone who doesn’t feel it isn’t there place you don’t half bang in about it.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    So the issue is with cocks rather than biology?
    The single biggest issue, though not the only one, is with women-only services and safe spaces, which in turn relates to gender-based power dynamics. Hence the fact that nearly all the brouhaha is about M to F transsexuals. Transmen are seldom, if ever, regarded as a threat.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921
    HYUFD said:

    RIP John Challis, aka Boycie, one of the great comic characters

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58617114

    Played Scorby in the seminal dr who story, seeds of doom, in 1976. His greatest role.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    Taz said:

    For someone who doesn’t feel it isn’t there place you don’t half bang in about it.
    I hardly ever comment on the matter. Today is an exception.
  • Then stick to municipal swimming pools or your own bath. No risk taken, no harm done.
    Yeah, I'm not saying no-one else can do it. It's just not my thing. I'm not a keen swimmer.

    (Actually, I'm more interested in allowing people to Kayak or canoe along our rivers. Too many are out of bounds. And I don't do that, either...)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    carnforth said:

    Are gay men to be banned from men’s changing rooms because they have penises and the straight men in there have anuses?

    (I ask this in a neutral way — I am actually sympathetic to your position…)
    No, but grown men are as I understand it banned from boys' changing rooms for pretty much that reason, absent an excuse to be there and a crb check.

    None of this is in any way difficult, but it does seem to attract a lot of liberaller than thou attention signallers. Like I said, gammon children who have found a woke costume in the dressing up box.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,347

    Let me simplify

    “Women only spaces should not be open to trans women with penises”
    Ok, entry to female facilities and spaces via presentation of genitalia. We'll need to decide whether it should be blanket checks or by random sample. Or - maybe more practical - no checks but just have really punitive penalties (eg big fines) for contravention if discovered.

    It's extreme and would put us at odds with most of the world but it's the view of many, I know, and so it's noted.
  • I had no view on this matter until I heard Ed Davey this morning shocking silence when asked how he has allowed an activist to be banned from the party for 10 years for wearing a T shirt
    If you want that to be the cover you hide behind when you vote Tory next time feel free. Personally I couldn't give a toss about the issue and neither will 99.9% of voters. The less time politicians spend trying to square the trans rights circle the more time they have to tackle actual issues.

    Society will find a balance on this one. It is futile trying to impose a balance.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Can you combine wild swimming with wild camping and foraging for your dinner to claim some kind of triple crown of wankness?

    I dont think anyone really cares about wild swimming mate
    Chance would be a fine thing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771

    His mother?
    They seem to be trying a bit too hard.

    The first one is a personal thank-you letter from Charles in return for a £500k donation to the Prince's Trust, which is a body to help young people and has helped nearly 1 million since it was set up, seems pretty much fine.

    The allegations are about Charles' fixer doing things that he did not know about. And there do not seem afaics to be things like kighthoods flying around.

    But I did not read all of it.

    Anti-Charles campaigners who do not seem to be very effective scandal-mongers, to my eye.
  • As organic farming needs more land use to produce food than we have available, it is (in my opinion) bollocks.
    The problem isn't a shortage of agricultural land.

    The problem is an excess of people.

    Organic farming is best for the planet, best for livestock and best for us.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    Isn’t that the Tory party?
    Nah, the Government shows no interest in wading into the trans screaming match and precious little in taxing the rich either. As we know very well from the NHS Tax, they chose to clobber workers with national insurance hikes in preference to capital gains, the upper income tax bands or anything that would raid property wealth.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The problem isn't a shortage of agricultural land.

    The problem is an excess of people.

    Organic farming is best for the planet, best for livestock and best for us.
    The number of people is generally regarded as a given.
  • Nobody is forcing anyone to swim.

    The ludicrous obsession with wild swimming on this forum by people who have no apparent interest in wild swimming is utterly pathetic.

    If you don’t want to swim in open water, don’t swim in open water.

    It really is that simple.
    And if you don't want people to take the piss, drop the 'wild' and just call it 'swimming' like everyone else.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    edited September 2021

    They should live as their gender but not be allowed into female-only spaces until after they've transitioned.

    If the rules need fixing to satisfy the panel with that easier, then that should be done rather than having safeguarding issues for women.
    So, dressed as a woman, they're meant to go into male bogs and potentially get beaten up?

    How about safeguarding issues for them?

    Edit: and practically, who checks? If a trans was to dress as a woman, go into a female toilet cubicle, and cause no hassle, what harm have they done? Are we going to have police checking their certificate of womanhood at the door?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921

    I hardly ever comment on the matter. Today is an exception.
    I’ve seen you’re banging on about cocks as well. FFS.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,347

    So, dressed as a woman, they're meant to go into male bogs and potentially get beaten up?

    How about safeguarding issues for them?
    I know!

    But I feel a wave of 'not doing this one yet again' coming on.

    CYAL.
  • If you want that to be the cover you hide behind when you vote Tory next time feel free. Personally I couldn't give a toss about the issue and neither will 99.9% of voters. The less time politicians spend trying to square the trans rights circle the more time they have to tackle actual issues.

    Society will find a balance on this one. It is futile trying to impose a balance.
    What a strange response

    I need no cover to vote for whoever I want to in GE 24 but Ed Davey was not a good look this morning, no matter how you try to deflect it

    I would also add it really angers my wife and if you think you will gain conservative voting seats on Davey's comments this morning you are in for a surprise

    And as far as labour on the subject it comes to something when the Speaker has to intervene over the safety of Rosie Duffield at their own conference

    This is a subject that labour, the lib dems and the snp seem to have got themselves into a mess
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,608
    Charles said:

    TL;DR

    Less tax for @RochdalePioneers!

    More tax for people he thinks are bad!
    I thought that was Boris Johnson's pitch.

    Fancy Rochdale stealing Johnson's "new clothes".
  • How about those who are transitioning, and have to live as a woman for two years before the op?

    " the panel must be satisfied that you have lived in your true gender for two years before you make your application"
    https://www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/changing-your-legal-gender-in-the-uk
    About to change in Scotland.....Malc's a big fan! [NOT]

    A draft bill has been set out that aims to remove barriers presently in place for an individual to secure the legal recognition of their gender identity.

    It includes a proposal to scrap the current requirement for people to apply to the UK Gender Recognition Panel.

    The draft bill would also remove the requirement for applicants to provide medical evidence of their diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

    At the same time it would retain the requirement that applicants must make a solemn statutory declaration that they have been living in their acquired gender for three months and intend to do so permanently.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579
  • IshmaelZ said:

    No, but grown men are as I understand it banned from boys' changing rooms for pretty much that reason, absent an excuse to be there and a crb check.

    None of this is in any way difficult, but it does seem to attract a lot of liberaller than thou attention signallers. Like I said, gammon children who have found a woke costume in the dressing up box.
    Or perhaps, just perhaps, people who have met other people with very different life experiences.

    And listened.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    And if you don't want people to take the piss, drop the 'wild' and just call it 'swimming' like everyone else.
    It’s useful shorthand, nothing more, like hiking vs walking. Get the chip off your shoulder, it’s utterly pathetic.
  • About to change in Scotland.....Malc's a big fan! [NOT]

    A draft bill has been set out that aims to remove barriers presently in place for an individual to secure the legal recognition of their gender identity.

    It includes a proposal to scrap the current requirement for people to apply to the UK Gender Recognition Panel.

    The draft bill would also remove the requirement for applicants to provide medical evidence of their diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

    At the same time it would retain the requirement that applicants must make a solemn statutory declaration that they have been living in their acquired gender for three months and intend to do so permanently.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579
    Yeah, I'm potentially not a fan of that - the devil depends on the details, as is ever the case.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    The problem isn't a shortage of agricultural land.

    The problem is an excess of people.

    Organic farming is best for the planet, best for livestock and best for us.
    There are undoubtedly too many people in Britain, especially England, but configuring policy in such a way as deaths exceed births for a few decades is a complicated and obviously time-consuming business. If we're going to get there by gradual, acceptable means rather than simply shooting one in two of the population in the head, all the extra mouths are going to need stuffing for a long time. Rochdale's merely questioning whether or not we have the capacity to go over entirely to organic whilst this problem persists, which we probably don't.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771

    And if you don't want people to take the piss, drop the 'wild' and just call it 'swimming' like everyone else.
    They are trying to rebrand it Outdoor Swimming.

    "Wild Swimming" has shades of Gerald the Gorilla.

    Or perhaps it sounds elitist :smile:
  • What a strange response

    I need no cover to vote for whoever I want to in GE 24 but Ed Davey was not a good look this morning, no matter how you try to deflect it

    I would also add it really angers my wife and if you think you will gain conservative voting seats on Davey's comments this morning you are in for a surprise

    And as far as labour on the subject it comes to something when the Speaker has to intervene over the safety of Rosie Duffield at their own conference

    This is a subject that labour, the lib dems and the snp seem to have got themselves into a mess
    It Doesn't Matter. As I said, if people want to be against everything the Tories say and do but "LibDems banned a trans activist" gives them the excuse still to vote Tory and thus for all the things they are against, sobeit.

    Frankly this is why Dorries has been appointed Wokewar secretary. Making the blue rinsers fear the woke is all they have left.
  • carnforth said:

    Are gay men to be banned from men’s changing rooms because they have penises and the straight men in there have anuses?

    (I ask this in a neutral way — I am actually sympathetic to your position…)
    Male on male rape is very much less of a problem than male on female.

    In addition men, whether gay or straight have similar strength - not the situation of men vs women (which is why I also think the presence of transgender women in female sports requiring strength is problematic)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907

    Male on male rape is very much less of a problem than male on female.

    In addition men, whether gay or straight have similar strength - not the situation of men vs women (which is why I also think the presence of transgender women in female sports requiring strength is problematic)
    You said it was about cocks, now you’re saying its about strength. Make your mind up
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771

    To be fair, every party to the left of the Tories is getting itself into a right pickle over this.

    Goodness knows why.

    There must be an opportunity for a 'Women don't have cocks and tax the rich' party.
    My take on that is that the Transgenderist argument is lead by the extremist faction (if it counts as a faction).
  • It Doesn't Matter. As I said, if people want to be against everything the Tories say and do but "LibDems banned a trans activist" gives them the excuse still to vote Tory and thus for all the things they are against, sobeit.

    Frankly this is why Dorries has been appointed Wokewar secretary. Making the blue rinsers fear the woke is all they have left.
    I genuinely do not think this is a woke issue, but I know my wife is alarmed, as is my daughter, and I just do not understand why the three left parties have got themselves into this mess
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    MattW said:

    My take on that is that the Transgenderist argument is lead by the extremist faction (if it counts as a faction).
    I don’t think anyone can disagree with that
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907

    I genuinely do not think this is a woke issue, but I know my wife is alarmed, as is my daughter, and I just do not understand why the three left parties have got themselves into this mess
    My girlfriend isn’t
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771

    About to change in Scotland.....Malc's a big fan! [NOT]

    A draft bill has been set out that aims to remove barriers presently in place for an individual to secure the legal recognition of their gender identity.

    It includes a proposal to scrap the current requirement for people to apply to the UK Gender Recognition Panel.

    The draft bill would also remove the requirement for applicants to provide medical evidence of their diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

    At the same time it would retain the requirement that applicants must make a solemn statutory declaration that they have been living in their acquired gender for three months and intend to do so permanently.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51445579
    That, I think, has the potential to move some votes.
  • So, dressed as a woman, they're meant to go into male bogs and potentially get beaten up?

    How about safeguarding issues for them?

    Edit: and practically, who checks? If a trans was to dress as a woman, go into a female toilet cubicle, and cause no hassle, what harm have they done? Are we going to have police checking their certificate of womanhood at the door?
    For them if they don't want to use male toilets until they've transitioned to being women then using disabled or other neutral toilets in the interim seems logical.

    But that doesn't seem a reason to abolish female-only spaces.
  • My girlfriend isn’t
    I do not know the age of your girlfriend but I think it was said the older age group are the ones more alarmed by it

    However, I really would like the issue to be toned down
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,848
    Charles said:

    When do you expect prices to fall?

    I’m locked in until November and wondering when to refix (I like certainty for budgeting purposes) or whether I should ride the tiger down for a bit.
    I'm always slightly nervous about making calls about things which aren't my day job anymore.

    But, my wild out of my ass guess is that natural gas prices peak early in 2022. There are quite a few big LNG projects that have been Covid delayed and which should start to impact the market next year. It only takes a few "excess" cargos in the market to really push the price of imported gas down.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    My girlfriend isn’t
    Empathy is non-uniformly distributed. So is imagination.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Who has actually threatened Rosie Duffield?
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921

    It Doesn't Matter. As I said, if people want to be against everything the Tories say and do but "LibDems banned a trans activist" gives them the excuse still to vote Tory and thus for all the things they are against, sobeit.

    Frankly this is why Dorries has been appointed Wokewar secretary. Making the blue rinsers fear the woke is all they have left.
    WTF does this gibberish even mean. 😂😂😂😂
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,063
    We have departments for undefined slogans now?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_for_Levelling_Up,_Housing_and_Communities

    Local Government getting shafted even in the naming stakes now.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,965
    kinabalu said:

    Ok, entry to female facilities and spaces via presentation of genitalia. We'll need to decide whether it should be blanket checks or by random sample. Or - maybe more practical - no checks but just have really punitive penalties (eg big fines) for contravention if discovered.

    It's extreme and would put us at odds with most of the world but it's the view of many, I know, and so it's noted.
    99.9% of the time you don't need genital checks to know what sex someone is. I would take a slightly different view to Carlotta - access to spaces should be based on sex (transition or not), with third spaces provided where feasible.
  • You said it was about cocks, now you’re saying its about strength. Make your mind up
    It's about both. A transitioned trans gender woman does not represent a potential rape threat to a natal woman. An un-transitioned one does. A transgender woman, with or without penis who has gone through puberty as a male has physical strength advantages over a natal woman.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,921

    My girlfriend isn’t
    More of your not commenting on this issue.

    Other women are concerned.
  • For them if they don't want to use male toilets until they've transitioned to being women then using disabled or other neutral toilets in the interim seems logical.

    But that doesn't seem a reason to abolish female-only spaces.
    Not always easily available. And besides, try putting yourself into the position of someone who is undergoing this problematic and painful (mentally and physically) process.

    As I said, there is an important question: who polices this?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    It Doesn't Matter. As I said, if people want to be against everything the Tories say and do but "LibDems banned a trans activist" gives them the excuse still to vote Tory and thus for all the things they are against, sobeit.

    Frankly this is why Dorries has been appointed Wokewar secretary. Making the blue rinsers fear the woke is all they have left.
    Dorries' appointment is also a clue that the GE will come in 2023, not 2024. It's intended to get the Conservatives over the line in the Red Wall seats but there is a time limit on Dorries' ability to generate headlines to motivate Red Wall voters. Approaching 3 years would be too long, 2 years not.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    IshmaelZ said:

    Empathy is non-uniformly distributed. So is imagination.
    Not really sure what point you’re making.

    In any event, as I said earlier, it is curious how the younger generation appear to be much less “alarmed” by all this.

    I agree with @Big_G_NorthWales that the debate is toxic and needs to be toned down and dealt with maturely, by both sides.
  • Jimmy Greaves, RIP.

    Donald Trump & Jimmy Greaves make the draw for the 91/92 Rumbelows Cup.
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/video/2016/oct/26/donald-trump-helps-league-cup-fifth-round-draw-1991-video
  • My girlfriend isn’t
    I was going to ask "what mess". Isn't frothing on about danger of such woke attitudes what the Dorries will be trying to do?
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,965

    My girlfriend isn’t
    Bully for her. But we don't do away with safeguarding procedures because some people in the group to be safeguarded don't want to be.

    Also, it's not just toilets and changing rooms. If your girlfriend took part in competitive sports or - God forbid - was sent to prison she might take a different view.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,063
    MattW said:

    My take on that is that the Transgenderist argument is lead by the extremist faction (if it counts as a faction).
    It is, and it is a major problem. The leading arguments treat it is an issue with no nuance, but it is one where nuance is very appropriate.
  • justin124 said:

    Who has actually threatened Rosie Duffield?

    No-one, just the media causing trouble. She has said some unhinged stuff on twitter eneralising about trans people being predators etc.
  • Jimmy Greaves, RIP.

    Donald Trump & Jimmy Greaves make the draw for the 91/92 Rumbelows Cup.
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/video/2016/oct/26/donald-trump-helps-league-cup-fifth-round-draw-1991-video

    Yes I have just seen that played on TV and had to rewind it to make sure it was for real
  • Essexit said:

    access to spaces should be based on sex (transition or not), with third spaces provided where feasible.
    Sex (chromosomes)? Or
    Gender (who you are)?
  • EKOS poll out.

    PPC on 10% and the Conservatives down to 27% with the Liberals on 32%.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    edited September 2021
    Essexit said:

    Bully for her. But we don't do away with safeguarding procedures because some people in the group to be safeguarded don't want to be.

    Also, it's not just toilets and changing rooms. If your girlfriend took part in competitive sports or - God forbid - was sent to prison she might take a different view.
    She might, you’re right. But that doesn’t mean she should be alarmed about who pisses where…

    Her perspective as a woman is just as important as other women’s. She isn’t some twitter warrior either, and she isn’t unique amongst her friends and peers.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,771

    I was going to ask "what mess". Isn't frothing on about danger of such woke attitudes what the Dorries will be trying to do?
    My thought is that she is there to do what "chaff" does for frigates, as well as arguably being suited for some things in the role (novelist, publicist, self-promotist), so that opponents look in the wrong direction whilst the good ship Boris & his mates get on with the real stuff.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,965

    Sex (chromosomes)? Or
    Gender (who you are)?
    Sex (biological and objective), not gender (social and subjective).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Not really sure what point you’re making.

    In any event, as I said earlier, it is curious how the younger generation appear to be much less “alarmed” by all this.

    I agree with @Big_G_NorthWales that the debate is toxic and needs to be toned down and dealt with maturely, by both sides.
    Oh dear.

    Your girlfriend is not personally alarmed, and cannot imagine what it would be like to be alarmed and/or does not mind that other women might be alarmed.

    Clear now?
  • For them if they don't want to use male toilets until they've transitioned to being women then using disabled or other neutral toilets in the interim seems logical.

    But that doesn't seem a reason to abolish female-only spaces.
    Who is abolishing female only spaces?

    Even in the extremely unlikely event of a penis-wielding pervert saying "I am trans" to threaten women in changing rooms, they would get chucked out. Standards of behaviour exist whether the woman is cis or trans that can be policed.

    The threat is the trans man or woman using their birth gender facilities and getting assaulted. That isn't extremely unlikely.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    IshmaelZ said:

    Oh dear.

    Your girlfriend is not personally alarmed, and cannot imagine what it would be like to be alarmed and/or does not mind that other women might be alarmed.

    Clear now?
    I mean you could say the same about those who are alarmed, who don’t have the imagination to comprehend that other women may not be alarmed.
  • French gov't in a punitive mood: "France is seeking to scuttle the proposed EU-Australia free-trade agreement, asking fellow European nations to “reconsider” the deal in retaliation for the Morrison government cancelling the $90bn French sub contract"

    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1439653781893955584
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,848

    My girlfriend isn’t
    When you girlfriend, are you using her biological sex, or how she self identifies?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,063

    French gov't in a punitive mood: "France is seeking to scuttle the proposed EU-Australia free-trade agreement, asking fellow European nations to “reconsider” the deal in retaliation for the Morrison government cancelling the $90bn French sub contract"

    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1439653781893955584

    What would be in it for the others?
  • Who is abolishing female only spaces?

    Even in the extremely unlikely event of a penis-wielding pervert saying "I am trans" to threaten women in changing rooms, they would get chucked out. Standards of behaviour exist whether the woman is cis or trans that can be policed.

    The threat is the trans man or woman using their birth gender facilities and getting assaulted. That isn't extremely unlikely.
    I really do not follow your reasoning there at all

    I do not think any woman would be reassured by your assertion they would be thrown out (by whom) and extremely unlikely means it is possible
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    edited September 2021
    My solution is individual toilet cubicles everywhere (floor to ceiling). Safe space if you want it with others, or private space for yourself. Toilet/changing room problem solved.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907

    I really do not follow your reasoning there at all

    I do not think any woman would be reassured by your assertion they would be thrown out (by whom) and extremely unlikely means it is possible
    A rapist isn’t going to be put off by a “no transwomen” sign are they?
  • French gov't in a punitive mood: "France is seeking to scuttle the proposed EU-Australia free-trade agreement, asking fellow European nations to “reconsider” the deal in retaliation for the Morrison government cancelling the $90bn French sub contract"

    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1439653781893955584

    It will be fascinating to see just how other EU countries react to France and I expect it will not be as favourable as they hope
  • Yes I have just seen that played on TV and had to rewind it to make sure it was for real
    At this distance, I'm surprised anyone in Britain knew of Trump in 1991 but clearly we must have done.

    They probably also showed Greaves's goal of the season
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg7QIPJD5ac
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Who is abolishing female only spaces?

    Even in the extremely unlikely event of a penis-wielding pervert saying "I am trans" to threaten women in changing rooms, they would get chucked out. Standards of behaviour exist whether the woman is cis or trans that can be policed.

    The threat is the trans man or woman using their birth gender facilities and getting assaulted. That isn't extremely unlikely.
    Like women never get murdered, because it's against the law.

    FFS pee at home, use the disabled, cross-dress for nights out. This is only difficult if you really, really want it to be, and have no skin in the game in the first place.
  • At this distance, I'm surprised anyone in Britain knew of Trump in 1991 but clearly we must have done.

    They probably also showed Greaves's goal of the season
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg7QIPJD5ac
    I didn't
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,970
    kle4 said:

    What would be in it for the others?
    Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Cancel a major Free Trade deal just to salve wounded French pride? Why?!

    Expect Germany to squash this.

    The French are over-reacting and over-reaching
  • I really do not follow your reasoning there at all

    I do not think any woman would be reassured by your assertion they would be thrown out (by whom) and extremely unlikely means it is possible
    Ok let me put it simply. The threat to women is from predatory men. There are far more predatory men than there are trans women. Whats more if you are a predatory man you don't need to try and pass yourself off as trans to access a female changing room.

    You just find a lone / vulnerable woman and drag them off somewhere quiet to rape them. That isn't going to be in the female changing facility of the gym. Nor are men perving over women in the unisex changing at the big leisure pool.

    There is a problem in society - men. The small minority that consider women to be property, sport or bad for rejecting them. The threat is from them and it is far far bigger. But instead of trying to shame testosterone-fuelled tossers from their behaviour, we get dragged into a ludicrous debate about a practically non-issue. So that the right wing can win votes.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,689

    My solution is individual toilet cubicles everywhere (floor to ceiling). Safe space if you want it with others, or private space for yourself. Toilet/changing room problem solved.

    Impose a new cost on businesses because men in dresses are upset. Great.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,907
    MaxPB said:

    Impose a new cost on businesses because men in dresses are upset. Great.
    Thanks for your unhelpful, immature, and inflammatory input on the debate. You’re just as bad as Twitter trans-activists.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I mean you could say the same about those who are alarmed, who don’t have the imagination to comprehend that other women may not be alarmed.
    You are right. These "women" need to man up.
This discussion has been closed.