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The fight for the Lone Star State – Texas 2022 – politicalbetting.com

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  • Teletubby Taliban, just a few country boys that have mellowed and liberalised over the past few years....

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9980101/Taliban-BEHEAD-Afghan-soldier-chilling-video-celebrate-holding-severed-head-victim.html
  • https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1436440688640544770

    This seems like a terrible move? Brexit in 2024, has he run out of ideas?
  • Using the old 'I wouldn't start from here' line, two buses coming from south of the river.
    I lived in the West End (around Two Ball Lonnen) so certainly convenient for me. Was probably built at a time when hospitals were smaller & more frequent and it was assumed it was for Newcastle residents only.
  • I had my wisdom teeth removed at Newcastle General. So far, the only time I've been in hospital.
    Coincidences... I lived just up the road from where the late Plato went to school.
  • Paging Leon...

    26 of the 27 signatories on the infamous letter in the Lancet linked to Wuhan lab

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/10/revealed-scientists-dismissed-wuhan-lab-theory-linked-chinese/

    And amazing how yet again the editor of the lancet just carries on his merry way.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,287
    tlg86 said:

    If I was forced to choose between banning abortion or legalising the murder of unborn babies after 24 weeks, I’d ban abortion.

    Thankfully, it’s not an issue that resonates much in this country so I don’t have to worry.

    I’d hate the forced choice but abortion beyond viability should only be considered where the mothers life is at risk. If doctors can look after the child independently of the mother then there should be a duty of care for the child after a delivery of any kind.

    Early on in pregnancy, however, I’d equate the morality of abortion to that of contraceptive.

    There probably a grey area that is more open to debate, but I seem to recall a significant majority of abortions occur within the first 12 weeks in any case. I find that the debate over late term abortions is often used as a proxy battle by those who are more comfortable with Texas’ law than ours.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,513
    Highlights cancelled, presumably because the contract would have stipulated that it couldn’t be shown live FTA. But not good news for 5Live.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585

    Paging Leon...

    26 of the 27 signatories on the infamous letter in the Lancet linked to Wuhan lab

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/10/revealed-scientists-dismissed-wuhan-lab-theory-linked-chinese/

    And amazing how yet again the editor of the lancet just carries on his merry way.

    Wankers. Lying wankers, all of them

    Beautiful sunny day in Lucerne and I’m eating fresh gilt-head by the river Reuss and I’m STILL infuriated by this.

    Pff!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Paging Leon...

    26 of the 27 signatories on the infamous letter in the Lancet linked to Wuhan lab

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/10/revealed-scientists-dismissed-wuhan-lab-theory-linked-chinese/

    And amazing how yet again the editor of the lancet just carries on his merry way.

    I am a proponent of the lab leak theory but I'm not overly excited by this story. Virology is a small world, and everyone at the top table is bound to have come across everyone else at some stage.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,640
    edited September 2021
    ’The food shortages being reported by a growing number of household names are likely to last forever, a leading industry figure has said in a stark warning to the government.

    Ian Wright, CEO of the Food & Drink Federation, said the system that for decades had meant British consumers could expect a full range of food or drink items in their supermarkets and restaurants was "over" and probably not coming back.

    A shortage of lorry drivers and workers elsewhere in supply chains, compounded by Brexit and the Covid pandemic, has triggered shortages of food and other items in recent weeks…’


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/food-shortages-last-forever
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,336

    The food shortages being reported by a growing number of household names are likely to last forever, a leading industry figure has said in a stark warning to the government.

    Ian Wright, CEO of the Food & Drink Federation, said the system that for decades had meant British consumers could expect a full range of food or drink items in their supermarkets and restaurants was "over" and probably not coming back.

    A shortage of lorry drivers and workers elsewhere in supply chains, compounded by Brexit and the Covid pandemic, has triggered shortages of food and other items in recent weeks…’


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/food-shortages-last-forever

    Forever is a very, very long time.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681
    edited September 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Is that not the price of democracy? Some people’s views get imposed on others.
    Yes, but with boundaries. Eg, a majority might wish to make it illegal for girls to go to university. Nevertheless this ought not to happen since there is something embedded in a higher authority - the constitution or the ECHR or the Supreme Court or whatever - which prevents the enactment of legislation which degrades people on account of their identity. This is essential in order to keep "democracy" in check. Democracy is a tool not a god. It's a means not an end. This concept is at the heart of Roe v Wade. Should a women's ownership of her own body be something protected at that higher level? I say it should.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,906

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1436440688640544770

    This seems like a terrible move? Brexit in 2024, has he run out of ideas?

    "You elected me in 2019 to Get Brexit Done. It was such a success vote for me and I'll do it again!"
  • https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1436440688640544770

    This seems like a terrible move? Brexit in 2024, has he run out of ideas?

    Did he ever have any? Except to be PM.
  • https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1436662791604146177

    It's strange that for so long Johnson supported such policies, hailing Thatcher as a hero. Strange how his change of mind coincides with taking over the Tory Party.

    A man with no principles at all, it's pathetic
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,362
    edited September 2021

    ’The food shortages being reported by a growing number of household names are likely to last forever, a leading industry figure has said in a stark warning to the government.

    Ian Wright, CEO of the Food & Drink Federation, said the system that for decades had meant British consumers could expect a full range of food or drink items in their supermarkets and restaurants was "over" and probably not coming back.

    A shortage of lorry drivers and workers elsewhere in supply chains, compounded by Brexit and the Covid pandemic, has triggered shortages of food and other items in recent weeks…’


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/food-shortages-last-forever

    I see we are back to the ludicrous hyperbolic stuff over Brexit. Its like 2010 government cuts and back to Wigan Pier narrative and Brexit means hospital running out of all vital medicines. And the result is the public stop listening / don't believe a word the media say.

    A more likely and realistic outcome is friction meaning end of absolute rock bottom prices which we have become so used to.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,513
    Ratters said:

    I’d hate the forced choice but abortion beyond viability should only be considered where the mothers life is at risk. If doctors can look after the child independently of the mother then there should be a duty of care for the child after a delivery of any kind.

    Early on in pregnancy, however, I’d equate the morality of abortion to that of contraceptive.

    There probably a grey area that is more open to debate, but I seem to recall a significant majority of abortions occur within the first 12 weeks in any case. I find that the debate over late term abortions is often used as a proxy battle by those who are more comfortable with Texas’ law than ours.
    So I’m coming from the opposite side to that view. Someone posted on Facebook a logic as to why they were pro-choice that went “we don’t force people to donate bone marrow, women should have control of their bodies.” That’s obviously bollocks unless you think a line shouldn’t be drawn somewhere.

    On your point of it being morally equivalent to contraception, that may be so, but I think we should say to kids not treat it as such because it can cause mental distress.

    As you say, most abortions are likely to be quite early, so whilst I’m uncomfortable with the limit being 24 weeks, it doesn’t keep me awake at night. I think I read that it’s 24 weeks because some problems don’t show up until that late. There’s an actress who wants to abolish the test for Down’s because she doesn’t want that condition to be eliminated from society. Thing is, having an abortion for such a reason is why some people think it should be available.

    And yes, the mother’s life must come first (they should get vaccinated). I’d also move to inducing labour at 38 weeks. My friends would have a healthy four year-old if that was the policy and the mother’s life would not have been endangered.
  • Coincidences... I lived just up the road from where the late Plato went to school.
    I shall have to reassess my idea on where is the cradle of European civilisation.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,243
    edited September 2021

    ’The food shortages being reported by a growing number of household names are likely to last forever, a leading industry figure has said in a stark warning to the government.

    Ian Wright, CEO of the Food & Drink Federation, said the system that for decades had meant British consumers could expect a full range of food or drink items in their supermarkets and restaurants was "over" and probably not coming back.

    A shortage of lorry drivers and workers elsewhere in supply chains, compounded by Brexit and the Covid pandemic, has triggered shortages of food and other items in recent weeks…’


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/food-shortages-last-forever

    That 'compounded by Brexit' line really makes me laugh. Even if we were still in the EU we would be in exactly the same position.

    Why? Because according to the latest briefing from Transport Intelligence there is a current shortage across Europe of 400,000 drivers. Poland is short a staggering 124,000 drivers and Germany and France between 45,000 and 60,000 each. The idea that allowing drivers to come and work here would make any difference when there are no drivers to come in the first place is laughable. (Though as an aside I still maintain we should let anyone work here who wants to but that is a different matter).

    Poor working conditions and poor pay are the main causes with many drivers leaving the profession and few wanting to join. Companies driving pay down and the Just in Time system have brought the whole edifice to breaking point. They can't even honestly blame covid given that these problems were already developing in 2019.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    IshmaelZ said:

    I am a proponent of the lab leak theory but I'm not overly excited by this story. Virology is a small world, and everyone at the top table is bound to have come across everyone else at some stage.
    Links are of course to be expected. What is shocking is how many of them, closely working with Wuhan and Daszak, signed this letter - which effectively silenced debate on lab leak for a year - while actually declaring they had no ‘conflict of interest’.

    THAT is the shocking bit
  • https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1436662791604146177

    It's strange that for so long Johnson supported such policies, hailing Thatcher as a hero. Strange how his change of mind coincides with taking over the Tory Party.

    A man with no principles at all, it's pathetic

    Wow. The speculation that Boris wants to be PM for years to come - for longer than Maggie - is fascinating. I think the NI rise has worked like a charm in that respect: only Rishi could credibly have been able to mount any kind of challenge, but NI has now tied him inescapably to the Boris project. Boris is now in complete control of the agenda.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423

    I see we are back to the ludicrous hyperbolic stuff
    We left it for a time?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,362
    edited September 2021
    kle4 said:

    We left it for a time?
    We switched to constant inaccurate reporting of COVID crowding the space instead....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I can guarantee that there are not 1,500 hospitals with Covid inpatients.

    That would be an average of more than two hospitals per Westminster constituency, which is clearly absurd.

    Why can't people do even the simplest of sense checks when it comes to numbers?
    Didn’t we do this a few months ago with Edinburgh or Newcastle?

    There were technically about 10-12 hospitals but that included specialist places such as ENT, ophthalmology, cancer etc. There were only 3-4 DGH type hospitals
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,906
    This nuanced abortion debate shows how ultimately futile stoking Culture Wars is.
    Most people are not fanatics, but fall somewhere in the middle.
    Sadly. The loonies and professional activists make most noise. And attempt to force everyone else to choose a side.
    I refuse to join a team. On this, and several other hot button CW issues.
  • Leon said:

    Links are of course to be expected. What is shocking is how many of them, closely working with Wuhan and Daszak, signed this letter - which effectively silenced debate on lab leak for a year - while actually declaring they had no ‘conflict of interest’.

    THAT is the shocking bit
    Its not shocking if they had something to cover up.

    Therefore we can conclude that there was something to cover up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,906
    Charles said:

    Didn’t we do this a few months ago with Edinburgh or Newcastle?

    There were technically about 10-12 hospitals but that included specialist places such as ENT, ophthalmology, cancer etc. There were only 3-4 DGH type hospitals
    Yes. And we've just done it again.
  • dixiedean said:

    "You elected me in 2019 to Get Brexit Done. It was such a success vote for me and I'll do it again!"
    I think this is just a way to humiliate and demoralize his Remainer enemies: 'I won on "Get Brexit Done", Brexit flopped, but I'm going to win all over again on the same slogan and my admirers will lap it up and there's nothing you can do about it.'
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,906

    Wow. The speculation that Boris wants to be PM for years to come - for longer than Maggie - is fascinating. I think the NI rise has worked like a charm in that respect: only Rishi could credibly have been able to mount any kind of challenge, but NI has now tied him inescapably to the Boris project. Boris is now in complete control of the agenda.
    That takes us to 2030 before he's gone.
    Summat to live for I guess. But I'm not sure I can summon up the will.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681

    Modern politics is pretty much a morass for parties, stumbling about between often conflicting voter blocs and pressure groups, but from my pov Labour seems stuck in it more firmly than others. I'd say SKS's flirtation (& tbf previous Labour leaders') with the Union flag has very much a whiff of parroting what they are told, in that case by focus groups and brand consultants.
    The flaggery was indeed focus-grouped, is what I hear. It's an attempt to slay the notion that we (Labour) don't "love Britain". One must hope it works and it's a quick death so that we can stop it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,513
    dixiedean said:

    This nuanced abortion debate shows how ultimately futile stoking Culture Wars is.
    Most people are not fanatics, but fall somewhere in the middle.
    Sadly. The loonies and professional activists make most noise. And attempt to force everyone else to choose a side.
    I refuse to join a team. On this, and several other hot button CW issues.

    The problem is that the pro-choice side present themselves as morally right. They talk in absolute terms. Once someone agrees that there should be a time limit on it, then you’re not all that different to the other side. Your just arguing about where to draw the line.

    I don’t approve of what’s proposed I’m Texas (though, to be honest, I couldn’t give a shot what happens in the US any more than anywhere else that isn’t England), but the opposition shouldn’t present their views as being moral absolutes that shouldn’t be open to debate.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,449
    Afternoon all :)

    For those who can't get enough of Bulgarian General Elections, 2021 has really been your year. Round 3 is now scheduled to take place on 14th November.

    For Norwegians, the voting occurs on Monday and the final (you'd think) Norfakta poll - fieldwork 7th and 8th September so quite old (arguably):

    Changes from 2017 Storting election:

    Labour: 24.0% (-3.4)
    Conservative: 19.1% (-5.9)
    Centre Party: 14.8% (+4.5)
    Progress Party: 11.4% (-3.8)
    Socialist Left: 8.2% (+2.2)
    Greens: 5.9% (+2.7)
    Red Party: 5.4% (+3.0)
    Liberal: 3.8% (-0.6)
    Christian People's Party: 3.6% (-0.6)

    Not the best poll for Labour but better for Centre and the centre-left bloc still looking likely to win on Monday. I make it 52.4% for the Red bloc of parties and 37.9% for the Blue bloc of parties so a huge lead.

    Last time Blue won by 48.8 to 46.1 so a 2.7% lead has become a 14.5% deficit which I make an 8.6% swing from centre-right to centre-left which should be more than enough.

    The one conundrum is there has been no polling within the 19 multi-member constituencies so we don't know how an 8.5% national swing will translate locally. One projection has Labour winning 14 of the 19 constituencies but that's meaningless.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585

    Its not shocking if they had something to cover up.

    Therefore we can conclude that there was something to cover up.
    Well, quite
  • That 'compounded by Brexit' line really makes me laugh. Even if we were still in the EU we would be in exactly the same position.

    Why? Because according to the latest briefing from Transport Intelligence there is a current shortage across Europe of 400,000 drivers. Poland is short a staggering 124,000 drivers and Germany and France between 45,000 and 60,000 each. The idea that allowing drivers to come and work here would make any difference when there are no drivers to come in the first place is laughable. (Though as an aside I still maintain we should let anyone work here who wants to but that is a different matter).

    Poor working conditions and poor pay are the main causes with many drivers leaving the profession and few wanting to join. Companies driving pay down and the Just in Time system have brought the whole edifice to breaking point. They can't even honestly blame covid given that these problems were already developing in 2019.
    Indeed.

    Given the claim is that 'the Eastern Europeans have all gone home' I'm not sure how the proposed solution of 'lets get some Eastern Europeans to work for less money' makes sense.

    Pay rates will rise and rightly so.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,280
    edited September 2021
    kle4 said:

    We left it for a time?
    It feels like we've had nothing but 6 weeks of continuous fag packet calculations about the economics of carting elderly relatives off to the knackers yard.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited September 2021
    Carnyx said:

    I doubt it very much! It's next to the airport - in fact is the airport. Is West Drayton chic? I don't know.

    Suden thought: not sure if the park and ride there is free. Gallowgate had better check. The others are, IIRC.
    Sheriffhall Park and Ride would be more convenient coming from the A1/A68 and then get the 33/49 bus in, also Newcraighall Park and ride for the Borders railway but the train service has been reduced.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Some kind of polite demo here in Lucerne. Can’t see it from my riverside restaurant table, but it sounds like a lot of people with whistles, chanting ‘USA, USA’

    Hmm. On 9/11? 20th annivo?

    Right wing Switzers sticking it to the Talib Man? Students still hating on Trump?!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681
    TimS said:

    That’s precisely the problem. They are all framing the culture war (such an annoying US import of a phrase by the way) as something people are on one or other side of. Therefore you need to say the right things to appease both sides.

    It’s not that. It’s the need for political empathy, which politicians seem to have forgotten recently. Empathy means understanding what others think and why they feel that way. Putting yourself in their shoes. It doesn’t require you to agree with them. Just to understand.

    That and explaining. Keir, like most of the Tory front bench, seems to have no inclination to explain his or the party’s reasoning. It’s hugely frustrating for anyone with a modicum of intelligence. That’s why I liked Blair, why I like Rory Stewart, and why - unfashionably - I also like Nick Clegg and Tim Farron.
    Totally agree. The territory between ignoring and pandering is large yet few seem to fancy occupying it.
  • kinabalu said:

    The flaggery was indeed focus-grouped, is what I hear. It's an attempt to slay the notion that we (Labour) don't "love Britain". One must hope it works and it's a quick death so that we can stop it.
    Labour does love Britain, it's about time it is more proud of the very good things it has done for it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,906
    edited September 2021
    tlg86 said:

    The problem is that the pro-choice side present themselves as morally right. They talk in absolute terms. Once someone agrees that there should be a time limit on it, then you’re not all that different to the other side. Your just arguing about where to draw the line.

    I don’t approve of what’s proposed I’m Texas (though, to be honest, I couldn’t give a shot what happens in the US any more than anywhere else that isn’t England), but the opposition shouldn’t present their views as being moral absolutes that shouldn’t be open to debate.
    Don't the pro-life side also present themselves as morally right? There should be no abortion. In absolute terms? Once you agree to a time limit, etc.,etc.
    That's the problem right there.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,449


    Wow. The speculation that Boris wants to be PM for years to come - for longer than Maggie - is fascinating. I think the NI rise has worked like a charm in that respect: only Rishi could credibly have been able to mount any kind of challenge, but NI has now tied him inescapably to the Boris project. Boris is now in complete control of the agenda.

    Yet the notion of him "going on and on" as someone else once put it is making all kind of hostages to fortune.

    I suspect he wants to out-serve Margaret Thatcher but he will know all PMs have a shelf life as both Thatcher and Blair found out and there comes a point when the person themselves, the people or the Party decide enough is enough and compel/persuade/cajole them on their way.

    The trouble is, if you announce your pre-retirement, that starts the clock on the campaign for your successor. I wonder if Wilson understood that - Cameron certainly didn't.

    There's also the mental and physical toll of the job - it may lose its lustre after a while.

    A wise man once said when the curtain falls it's time to get off the stage - I wonder if Johnson will overstay his welcome and will need to be removed.
  • Mr. Stodge, disagree, suspect Cameron just wanted to help Osborne be seen as the heir apparent.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617

    Indeed, but there is undoubtedly a regional effect with those anecdotes. Leicestershire/Rutland has been in a permanent state of crisis/brink since the pandemic began (and possibly before). For reasons unclear it has been a major hotspot - as Foxy’s reports suggest.

    Yet my two ward doctor friends on the South Coast report no such problems. Indeed my NHS friends in general are the most dovish on covid, they tend to feel lockdowns and restrictions should be been and done with.
    Fair enough, but one doesn't want to let things get so bad that every hospital in the land, even Tunbridge Wells, has collapsed.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,513
    Another thing on abortion, I was forced to do GCSE Religious Education (the only good thing was our teacher was pro-Mugabe, we had some fantastic arguments).

    Anyway, we had questions like “explain how a Buddhist might feel about abortion giving references to religious teachings.” The message of the course and the reason we had to do it was so that we’d show respect to others who have different values to our own.

    Now I think Evangelical Christians are nuts. But as an atheist, I respect them as much as any other conservative religious group. Just because they are white and speak English doesn’t change a thing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Leon said:

    Some kind of polite demo here in Lucerne. Can’t see it from my riverside restaurant table, but it sounds like a lot of people with whistles, chanting ‘USA, USA’

    Hmm. On 9/11? 20th annivo?

    Right wing Switzers sticking it to the Talib Man? Students still hating on Trump?!

    Aha. Problem solved. Big protest against vaxports apparently. Not sure how that chimes with chanting ‘USA USA’ but hey
  • Was there a universe where Brown could have won an election, or was he always going to lose?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    Aha. Problem solved. Big protest against vaxports apparently. Not sure how that chimes with chanting ‘USA USA’ but hey
    Maybe Schweizerdeutsch for 'bollocks'?
  • dixiedean said:

    This nuanced abortion debate shows how ultimately futile stoking Culture Wars is.
    Most people are not fanatics, but fall somewhere in the middle.
    Sadly. The loonies and professional activists make most noise. And attempt to force everyone else to choose a side.
    I refuse to join a team. On this, and several other hot button CW issues.

    Abortion is an extreme debate in the USA because it is decided by the courts and so fanatically binary.

    Abortion is not an extreme debate in Europe because it is decided by the voters and so fluidly moderate.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,362
    edited September 2021

    Was there a universe where Brown could have won an election, or was he always going to lose?

    Yes, he famously bottled it when he could have won.
  • I shall have to reassess my idea on where is the cradle of European civilisation.
    Balmbra's. Didn't you realise?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,132
    Off to the footy now.

    Personally, I am ambivalent about abortion, but do think my opinion on this is not very much matter as a male who will never be in that situation. I would be happy if we had female only votes on the issue.

    There is an interesting and nuanced article in the Atlantic about mother and daughter in Wade vs Roe. The case took so long that the pregnancy went to term.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/09/jane-roe-v-wade-baby-norma-mccorvey/620009/?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Tres said:

    When they have the ability to sue their parents.
    So you are ok with abortion at any point before birth then?
  • Yes, he famously bottled it when he could have won.
    I thought some of the polls at the time indicated it was likely he'd have lost Labour's majority? Haven't we had such arguments here before?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,362
    edited September 2021

    I thought some of the polls at the time indicated it was likely he'd have lost Labour's majority? Haven't we had such arguments here before?
    You asked if he could...not would. He had a very good shot at doing so, especially if you believe in the swing back theory.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,513
    Foxy said:

    Off to the footy now.

    Personally, I am ambivalent about abortion, but do think my opinion on this is not very much matter as a male who will never be in that situation. I would be happy if we had female only votes on the issue.

    There is an interesting and nuanced article in the Atlantic about mother and daughter in Wade vs Roe. The case took so long that the pregnancy went to term.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/09/jane-roe-v-wade-baby-norma-mccorvey/620009/?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

    Sorry, but that’s rubbish. Men have a right to a say on when we decide a child is a child.
  • Was there a universe where Brown could have won an election, or was he always going to lose?

    Brown might have won a narrow majority in summer 2007.

    But that would have taken courage to call one nor do I think he could have accepted having a lower majority than Blair either.

    Alternatively a narrow Labour win in 1992 leading to a Conservative win in 1997 might have seen a Brown led Labour winning in 2006 or 2010.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,050
    edited September 2021

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1436440688640544770

    This seems like a terrible move? Brexit in 2024, has he run out of ideas?

    Bit of a blow for the "Brexit is done" fanbois...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Gawd this is bliss. They just gone and given me a glass of super-Tuscan red. Three yards from my table the fish leap from the glittering river Reuss, right under the graceful volutes of the Jesuit church. The reflected alpine sunshine dapples the painted medieval ceiling; rich old ladies snooze, and dream of furtive bank accounts
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    tlg86 said:

    Sorry, but that’s rubbish. Men have a right to a say on when we decide a child is a child.
    Agree. And, if it let solely a woman’s choice, then scrap financial obligations on the father to support the child. After all, men have no role (if you take the view abortion is a women-only issue)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423

    I thought some of the polls at the time indicated it was likely he'd have lost Labour's majority? Haven't we had such arguments here before?
    It all rather depends on whether people think his initial bump would have held up in a GE campaign, or whether his position and leadership was inherently weak and that would have won out.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,540

    Conflating two discussions, it would appear to be easier to end the life of an unborn child than to evict a tenant not paying the rent.

    The tenant certainly takes more than 9 months, and costs a helluvalot.

    How Much Does it Cost to Evict a Tenant?
    In most cases it costs either £1,300 or £2,200 to evict a tenant in the UK, depending on whether you go with the cheaper-but-slower county court or you spend more for a speedier High Court eviction. Either way, you'll incur costs during each of the three stages of eviction.

    https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/business-insurance/landlord-insurance-uk/average-cost-evict-tenant#costbreakdown

    (Note: loss of rent, cleaning, damage, redecoration are all on top of that.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Leon said:

    Gawd this is bliss. They just gone and given me a glass of super-Tuscan red. Three yards from my table the fish leap from the glittering river Reuss, right under the graceful volutes of the Jesuit church. The reflected alpine sunshine dapples the painted medieval ceiling; rich old ladies snooze, and dream of furtive bank accounts

    This where you are? Jammy sod ...

    https://www.google.com/maps/@47.050847,8.3052131,3a,75y,330.91h,84.88t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPdtkvR4aCC9dkgwDvbSki1yQ7wmDLmEU2Znzl3!2e10!3e11!6shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipPdtkvR4aCC9dkgwDvbSki1yQ7wmDLmEU2Znzl3=w203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya223.15959-ro-0-fo100!7i5792!8i2896
  • TresTres Posts: 2,810
    Charles said:

    So you are ok with abortion at any point before birth then?
    Are you okay with putting women who suffer miscarriages at risk of being dragged through the legal system then?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    See my comment at 10.08. The trouble is that the money available to Care Home Managers is frequently inadequate. One of the best Homes I've came across was run by a charity; the Motor Trades Benevolent; there was wide range of activities and plenty of support. It was also in a very big building.... I think the one-time mansion of an early motor magnate, which meant that there was room for several levels of care, as the residents level of need increased.
    I rather think the Dutch have it right with their dementia village. It sounds a very thought through place. Pity that my Dutch isn't very good!

    https://hogeweyk.dementiavillage.com/

    My Mother in Law died last week, which may be part of my gloomy mood. She had been in residential care, self funded from the sale of her bungalow. She had been widowed a couple of years and could no longer manage on her own between physical frailty, mostly arthritis, and getting rather amiably muddled.

    She rather enjoyed the company, being cooked for and did lots of arts and crafts as well as activities such as poetry readings. She didn't have a bad few years at all, except for covid restrictions, and the home managed those as well as they could. It cost about £80 000 in all, so wouldn't have been affected by the recent announced plans, which in any case don't start for 2 years or cover accommodation or food. She has an estate of a little less than the same sum.

    She was a lovely lady and will be much missed, and enjoyable company to nearly the end. RIP

    There is a lot of good stuff going on in Alzheimer’s. Dementia villages are one (the Dutch are good but others are using them now). I like the idea of homes built on an oval footprint - dementia patients like to walk but get stymied by corners so stand looking at the wall and get very stressed and upset, but with a continuous corridor without corners they don’t face that problem
  • kinabalu said:

    The flaggery was indeed focus-grouped, is what I hear. It's an attempt to slay the notion that we (Labour) don't "love Britain". One must hope it works and it's a quick death so that we can stop it.
    My approximate rule is that if you don’t have real conviction over a subject or can’t successfully fake it, stay away from it. I know that’s difficult if you’re the leader of HMG’s opposition, but the great wobbling jelly of moral vacancy gets away with it all the time. No one seems to know or care what BJ’s view on trans rights are, or even seem curious about them.

    It can’t be beyond the wit of man or ppb director to sit SKS down and find out what is the authentic Keir and why he loves the place in which he lives: 5 a side with your mates, a pint in your favourite pub, a stretch of countryside. Schmaltzy maybe but no fcuking flags.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    If you mean at what point should it become illegal to abort, I think we have a reasonable settlement here. What do you think?
    Viability is the dividing line for me. I think about 20 weeks but would have it assessed every few years by an expert committee to depoliticise it (or at least try to…)
  • Keir Starmer should get up in that Labour Conference and tell the country once again that the Labour Government of 1997 to 2010 was good and did good things. And most people would agree.

    Child poverty reduced, homelessness almost eliminated, peace in NI. It is an absolute disgrace how embarrassed Labour is of its own history!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,423

    Wow. The speculation that Boris wants to be PM for years to come - for longer than Maggie - is fascinating. I think the NI rise has worked like a charm in that respect: only Rishi could credibly have been able to mount any kind of challenge, but NI has now tied him inescapably to the Boris project. Boris is now in complete control of the agenda.
    I think that speculation is nonsense. It's precisely because there have been rumblings, justified or otherwise, that he is overcompensating and talking about a decade more in power etc. It's like people supporting the most extreme Covid restriction in a poll to show seriousness, by talking about beating Maggie it's just code for 'I'm in control and going nowhere'.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,753

    I think this is just a way to humiliate and demoralize his Remainer enemies: 'I won on "Get Brexit Done", Brexit flopped, but I'm going to win all over again on the same slogan and my admirers will lap it up and there's nothing you can do about it.'
    Its a sound plan no?

    We all know that the electoral calculus favours the appeal to Leave. I'm sure some hardy CCHQ data scientist knows exactly the ratio of ardent Brexiteers they need to rile up to maintain the majority. To me it seems the Conservatives are emulating the American cultural divide and hammering in the plugs and feathers. Because the demography works and will for the foreseeable.

    Remain voters are packed in the metros and cracked everywhere else.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited September 2021

    That 'compounded by Brexit' line really makes me laugh. Even if we were still in the EU we would be in exactly the same position.

    Why? Because according to the latest briefing from Transport Intelligence there is a current shortage across Europe of 400,000 drivers. Poland is short a staggering 124,000 drivers and Germany and France between 45,000 and 60,000 each. The idea that allowing drivers to come and work here would make any difference when there are no drivers to come in the first place is laughable. (Though as an aside I still maintain we should let anyone work here who wants to but that is a different matter).

    Poor working conditions and poor pay are the main causes with many drivers leaving the profession and few wanting to join. Companies driving pay down and the Just in Time system have brought the whole edifice to breaking point. They can't even honestly blame covid given that these problems were already developing in 2019.
    There's a very simple way to test this proposition, which, as mentioned a few times earlier on here, is to see whether our north-western neighbours in Europe are having similar levels of shortages of supply. So far they aren't, as far as has been reported, so that would seem to suggest Brexit is indeed a major factor.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,449

    Mr. Stodge, disagree, suspect Cameron just wanted to help Osborne be seen as the heir apparent.

    Perhaps but that wasn't the desired effect. In any case, none of it mattered as it turned out.

    I suppose it's worth asking (and especially the Conservative members on here) - supposing REMAIN had won and Cameron had continued as PM for another 18 months and then stood down, would the resulting leadership contest have been a coronation for Osborne who, to be fair, had insinuated any number of his supporters in key positions or would there have been a challenge from May or someone else?

    What would have been Johnson's fate in an Osborne-led Government?

    The experience of Brown probably mitigated against an apparent coronation - after all, Wilson's resignation led to a contest for Labour leader in 1976.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Hopefully it will allow you to top it up. The current system appears to discriminate against those who are not wealthy, but have saved enough money for their retirement and would like to spend some of it to better themselves.

    Having said that, if I accept I'm not going to pass it on, I could fund myself for a few years.
    The trick is to buy the best you can afford until you run out of money. Councils don’t like to move a resident who is settled and end up paying for the home they are in
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681
    tlg86 said:

    The problem is that the pro-choice side present themselves as morally right. They talk in absolute terms. Once someone agrees that there should be a time limit on it, then you’re not all that different to the other side. Your just arguing about where to draw the line.

    I don’t approve of what’s proposed I’m Texas (though, to be honest, I couldn’t give a shot what happens in the US any more than anywhere else that isn’t England), but the opposition shouldn’t present their views as being moral absolutes that shouldn’t be open to debate.
    The right-to-life side also present themselves as morally right. Rather more dogmatically and without caveat, in fact. The pressure to move from "reasonable limits" to "ban" is greater than that to move from "reasonable limits" to "no limits". But, yes, agreed, the debate for most people is what constitutes "reasonable", and America is (as per usual) more polarized and heated on this than we are.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited September 2021
    Farooq said:

    Abortion should be allowed up to 4 months if the fœtus is female, and up to 6 months if male.
    You win the award for the worlds most bonkers view on abortion!

    Congrats
  • MrEd said:

    Agree. And, if it let solely a woman’s choice, then scrap financial obligations on the father to support the child. After all, men have no role (if you take the view abortion is a women-only issue)
    Bollocks.

    It is the woman's body, it is the woman who needs to be responsible for her own body during the term.

    Post labour, the child is the child of both parents and has their own body, they're no longer in either parents body anymore.

    If like Schwarzenegger in Junior a man were to be pregnant it would be their body, their choice.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Tres said:

    Are you okay with putting women who suffer miscarriages at risk of being dragged through the legal system then?
    No. Why would I be?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681

    Abortion is an extreme debate in the USA because it is decided by the courts and so fanatically binary.

    Abortion is not an extreme debate in Europe because it is decided by the voters and so fluidly moderate.
    Not sure how you get that. In the US, it's anything but binary. The situation is highly nuanced and varies across states.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    Again, in fairness to Lilico, he is basing his post on the only available number. PBers often protest this number, but AFAIK fail to produce any other reliable quantification.
    There are c. 100,000 general and acute beds in the English NHS.
    An average of 765 admissions per day over the past week or so has led to 6,400 beds with covid patients.
    Doubling the intake would lead to about 12,500-13,000 covid patients.
    This is about one in eight of all general and acute beds in the English NHS.

    When covid beds are occupied, it takes more than 1:1 in terms of beds, as distancing and protective measures are taken. A 12-13% covid loading would equate to an effective loading of 15-20% in terms of beds no longer available.

    The NHS usually runs at over 90% loading of general and acute beds. Accordingly, we’re looking at problems.

    I’d have said up to 500 admissions per day would be not too much a problem and within capacity. 500-1000 would be running hot and putting increasing pressure on. 1000-1500 would be unsustainable beyond the short term, and 1500+ a real problem.
  • kinabalu said:

    The right-to-life side also present themselves as morally right. Rather more dogmatically and without caveat, in fact. The pressure to move from "reasonable limits" to "ban" is greater than that to move from "reasonable limits" to "no limits". But, yes, agreed, the debate for most people is what constitutes "reasonable", and America is (as per usual) more polarized and heated on this than we are.
    Has anywhere banned abortion after its been legalised ?

    Its easy to take the extreme purity position and regard yourself as righteous in the safe knowledge that its not going to happen in reality.

    So what about Texas ? Well I'm rather struck by the notice that Texas expected the Supreme Court to overturn their law thereby allowing them to wallow in glorious 'repression' but are now going to be stuck with its consequences.
  • Leon said:




    Yes, I’m eating at the restaurant terrace you can see in that view. Hold on, I’ll post a pic

    Cheers, PB



    Looks like a right shithole.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,449
    Afternoon all :)

    There are plenty of ways to play the current system to your "advantage". When my mother died, my father, brother and I agreed her half of the house would be held in Trust to my brother and me. We were advised that after seven years it would then be legally "ours" and could not be counted toward my father's care costs.

    That was correct - when my father was being assessed for care we were able to show he owned only half his property so the charge was set against only half his property.

    I suspect many shrewd families do this to circumvent full care costs - now, this may be morally good or not but it's a legal and financial fact.

    The lesson I learned is if you want your children to inherit anything, make sure you have nothing.

    @HYUFD commented yesterday evening re a proposal to seek grater tax from landlords. It was too late for me to respond but do we have an accurate view of the profile of "landlords"? Yes, I suspect many have one property but I have local knowledge of one individual who owns and lets out 90 properties. Now, he is his own Letting Agent as I understand it but he has applied to Newham for grants for loft conversions and extensions to get even more people into his property.

    The HMO situation is even murkier - we know there are 3-bedroom semis where twenty or more (usually men) sleep all round London. We also know there's a big market in illegal sub-letting so if you want to go after the landlord/private rental market be aware it's a complicated Pandora's Can of worms.

    That last sentence is my early nomination for Mixed Metaphor Award which is like Mixed Martial Arts only slightly less violent.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681
    tlg86 said:

    Sorry, but that’s rubbish. Men have a right to a say on when we decide a child is a child.
    Yes, I agree. However, on a thankfully remote hypothetical just for the sake of argument, a referendum on banning abortion, firstly I'd say it shouldn't happen since democracy must have its boundaries (my previous post to you), and secondly if it did happen, I wouldn't consider it valid unless there was a majority of women in favour as well as an overall majority. This isn't purely a women's issue but it is mainly a women's issue.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585
    Fascinating online debate about a surely-hoaxed 9/11 photo which… turns out to be real

    https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2019/11/29/underunderstood-9-11-hoax

    Simultaneously enlightening and saddening
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2021

    There's a very simple way to test this proposition, which, as mentioned a few times earlier on here, is to see whether our north-western neighbours in Europe are having similar levels of shortages of supply. So far they aren't, as far as has been reported, so that would seem to suggest Brexit is indeed a major factor.
    Except there have been anecdotal reports of issues across Europe and the USA. Just as there have been anecdotal reports of issues in the UK.

    The difference is that in the UK there's a whole bunch of obsessives especially on FBPE Twitter who'll cry and share others years if their local Waitrose is out of their favourite bottled water.

    Whereas in any normal country consumers would think "oh that's sold out. I'll get this instead."
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Bollocks.

    It is the woman's body, it is the woman who needs to be responsible for her own body during the term.

    Post labour, the child is the child of both parents and has their own body, they're no longer in either parents body anymore.

    If like Schwarzenegger in Junior a man were to be pregnant it would be their body, their choice.
    Wrong, on several levels.

    The argument is that, it’s my body, my choice (which, by the way, you don’t seem to extend to anti-vacc people like @contrarian) and therefore men have no say in the process. If that’s the case - and men are excluded from the process because they are not carrying the child - then the flip side occurs when they are asked for money. You can’t bang on being all your choice and telling men to keep out of it when you want one course but then come with the begging bowl when you are looking for support and the father won’t provide it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,585

    Looks like a right shithole.
    It’s better than Wick, Caithness. I’ll go that far
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,681

    Labour does love Britain, it's about time it is more proud of the very good things it has done for it.
    Exactly. Eg every progressive reform of the last 100 years.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Leon said:

    It’s better than Wick, Caithness. I’ll go that far
    I like Wick!

    Did you see Pulteneytown, the Telford quarter on the south side of the harbour?

  • Farooq said:

    If they didn't want the consequences, they should have thought of that earlier and been more careful.
    Indeed.

    Less a case of 'be careful what you wish for' then 'be careful what you posture about but do not actually want'.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,362
    edited September 2021
    I see Spurs are trying to out do Arsenal in the embarrassment factor. I bet Harry Kane is real looking forward to the prospect of yet another season not winning anything, despite being flogged like some cart horse....

    I heard a stat to some incredible number of players, who have left Spurs since Kane has been first choice, have gone on to win trophies elsewhere.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,513

    I see Spurs are trying to out do Arsenal in the embarrassment factor. I bet Harry Kane is real looking forward to the prospect of yet another season not winning anything, despite being flogged like some cart horse....

    I heard a stat to some incredible number of players, who have left Spurs since Kane has been first choice, have gone on to win trophies elsewhere.

    They’re nothing without Son...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,956
    edited September 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Ok. It just sounded like a dodgy equivalence to me. One of those "wokeness is as big a threat as a putative fascist coup" type deals. You know what I mean. And sorry, I don't follow the logic of your 2nd point. Abortion on demand is obviously common because it only takes place when a woman asks for it. This is my point. It should be neither compulsory nor forbidden. It's the woman's decision within certain parameters. As we have it here. I think our law is about right - ie some limits but closer to no limits than to prohibition. The grisly Texas variation being the opposite, of course.
    If 'always allowed' and 'never allowed' are not the two extremes it is hard to see what could count as the extreme opposite of 'never allowed'.

    The logic of my second point is so clear I don't known how to put it more clearly. My position is that abortion should be, in Clinton's words, 'safe legal and rare'.

    BTW the gender imbalance caused in some cultures by the availability of gender based abortion would suggest to any feminist that straight 'demand led' abortion leads to unacceptable discrimination against unborn girls. That alone shows it is an 'extreme' position.

    Incidentally, the whole debate is damaged by religious bigotry. There are few clear specifically religious principles involved. The mainstream argument should be a humanist, liberal and rights based one.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,492
    edited September 2021

    There are c. 100,000 general and acute beds in the English NHS.
    An average of 765 admissions per day over the past week or so has led to 6,400 beds with covid patients.
    Doubling the intake would lead to about 12,500-13,000 covid patients.
    This is about one in eight of all general and acute beds in the English NHS.

    When covid beds are occupied, it takes more than 1:1 in terms of beds, as distancing and protective measures are taken. A 12-13% covid loading would equate to an effective loading of 15-20% in terms of beds no longer available.

    The NHS usually runs at over 90% loading of general and acute beds. Accordingly, we’re looking at problems.

    I’d have said up to 500 admissions per day would be not too much a problem and within capacity. 500-1000 would be running hot and putting increasing pressure on. 1000-1500 would be unsustainable beyond the short term, and 1500+ a real problem.
    Having Delta seep through the country during summer will, I think, be shown to have been very fortunate.
  • MrEd said:

    Wrong, on several levels.

    The argument is that, it’s my body, my choice (which, by the way, you don’t seem to extend to anti-vacc people like @contrarian) and therefore men have no say in the process. If that’s the case - and men are excluded from the process because they are not carrying the child - then the flip side occurs when they are asked for money. You can’t bang on being all your choice and telling men to keep out of it when you want one course but then come with the begging bowl when you are looking for support and the father won’t provide it.
    Of course you can.

    Firstly I do think its contrarian's choice as to whether he has the vaccine or not. Choices can of course have consequences. If a woman chooses to carry a child she's told not to go on rollercoasters etc while pregnant, while if she has an abortion she can go on a rollercoaster. If someone says to a heavily pregnant woman "I'm sorry you can't do this, we're not insured to have you do this" then that's entirely reasonable and doesn't violate the woman's right to choose.

    But if a child is born, then the child has two parents and both are responsible for paying for it. The fact that it was the woman's body only lasts until the child is born, once the child is born then its no longer the woman's body that's involved its the newborn child's body from then on.

    The flip side of men being required to pay to support their own kids is that they should have just as much right to bring up the kids too. Its not that they get to control the pregnant individuals body while they're pregnant.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,513
    Farooq said:

    Abortion should be allowed up to 4 months if the fœtus is female, and up to 6 months if male.
    I’m guessing you think this because of the temptation to abort a girl? My biology isn’t very good - when is the sex knowable? This is in the same bracket it as the Down’s argument.
  • There's a very simple way to test this proposition, which, as mentioned a few times earlier on here, is to see whether our north-western neighbours in Europe are having similar levels of shortages of supply. So far they aren't, as far as has been reported, so that would seem to suggest Brexit is indeed a major factor.
    Except that is bollocks as I have already shown because they are having exactly the same issues with lack of hauliers as we are. Try again.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    A mere 4,298 Scotland cases. Big day-of-week on day-of-week fall.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited September 2021

    Except there have been anecdotal reports of issues across Europe and the USA. Just as there have been anecdotal reports of issues in the UK.

    The difference is that in the UK there's a whole bunch of obsessives especially on FBPE Twitter who'll cry and share others years if their local Waitrose is out of their favourite bottled water.

    Whereas in any normal country consumers would think "oh that's sold out. I'll get this instead."
    The only scraps of anecdata I've heard on this so far on here are from Southern Europe. If you can point me to any similar officially confirmed shortages to the ones here, in the rest of northern and western europe over the last six-to-eight weeks or so, I'm genuinely all ears.
This discussion has been closed.