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Here's a substantive issue: how can Scotland be truly independent when, if the SNP gets the currency union it wants, the country's fiscal and economic policy will have to be signed off in London?malcolmg said:
Exactly , define you substantive issueHugh said:
What do you consider a "substantive issue", and is it the same as a Yes campaigner / Scottish Nationalist?SouthamObserver said:
I have learned that to get a Scottish nationalist to engage in an argument about substantive issues is a task that is almost impossible to achieve. It's a shame really. I'd love to know why you believe the professor is wrong.Stuart_Dickson said:
They will never ever learn.Theuniondivvie said:
If only there was a considered, non-abusive piece to respond to.SouthamObserver said:
As I said yesterday, it would be good to read a considered, non-abusive response from someone on the Yes side.
'socialist utopia', 'profoundly misguided', 'an impoverished and depleted view of the world', 'deficiencies', 'blinkered', 'ferocity'.
I wonder which side of the debate this master of Olympian detachment is referring to? Still, some amusement is to be gained from Unionists who've just about managed to accept the description of Unionist now trying to push their British nationalism to the back of the closet.
And how many Scottish Nationalists do you regularly try to engage with, and where? Just on here?
To the extent that your description is accurate, it applies to Unionists as much as Nationalists in my opinion.
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Israel, the children of a Vengeful God, waging war on civilians who are the wrong colour and the wrong creed. They can't wait to impose Zionist Apartheid on the conquered areas.0
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Warsi's letter is curious in that it is not explicit about what the difference of principle is that has caused here to resign but the reference to the judgment of Clarke and Grieve is quite telling.
Whilst not a member of the party I share the concern of those who think the government's respect for the rule of law was diminished by the recent changes, particularly to the Law Officers, and the indications are that a slightly more cavalier approach is going to be taken to matters such as human rights. That is regrettable.0 -
LOL< hard to get dialogue going with a unionist who claims its all ours and we will take it all off you if you dare to want democracy. The point is that being a 10% part of a partnership means the larger partner tramps all over you whilst making the decisions based on his 90% opinion. It is impossible for power mad , money hungry politicians to be fair and remain in power. So they make decisions that are bad for the partner with 10% share. Said partner could make much better decisions based on his 10% share. Is that simple enough for you.CarlottaVance said:
My guess is its all part of the Scot Nat narrative that Scotland is effectively an oppressed colony of the English and therefore it is impossible to be both a Scottish Nationalist and a Unionist as Unionism is equivalent to British (hegemonic) nationalism. Or something. But as you observe, its tough to get a dialogue going with most of the Nationalist persuasion - it swiftly collapses into slogans 'its our pound too!'.......SouthamObserver said:
Not at all. British nationalism certainly exists. I was just interested in understanding why you believe the professor is wrong to assert that unionism does not necessarily equate to British nationalism. Why do you reject his explanation of why he does not consider himself a British nationalist?Theuniondivvie said:
Let me take a wild guess, quoting the prof's own intemperate remarks and referring to British nationalism will be regarded as ill-considered abuse.Stuart_Dickson said:
They will never ever learn.Theuniondivvie said:
If only there was a considered, non-abusive piece to respond to.SouthamObserver said:
As I said yesterday, it would be good to read a considered, non-abusive response from someone on the Yes side.
'socialist utopia', 'profoundly misguided', 'an impoverished and depleted view of the world', 'deficiencies', 'blinkered', 'ferocity'.
I wonder which side of the debate this master of Olympian detachment is referring to? Still, some amusement is to be gained from Unionists who've just about managed to accept the description of Unionist now trying to push their British nationalism to the back of the closet.0 -
I've been trying my best.Neil said:
You lot need to get JohnO into the Lords pronto to shore up the moderate wing of the party!TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes I am.Neil said:Is the moderate wing of the Conservatives ever-so-sore at the cumulative impact of the last reshuffle?
To lose one is careless ... to lose Grieve, Willetts, Clarke, Hurd, Duncan etc..
I think Dave and George decided JohnO was to important to be moved, the economy depends on John's leadership.
A leafy Surrey borough, dubbed the Beverly Hills of Britain, has been named as home to the highest income taxpayers in Britain for the second year running.
Sports stars and celebrities including Andy Murray and Sir Elton John are among the residents of Elmbridge, where HM Revenue and Customs collected more than £1.2billion in income tax in the 2011-12 tax year - more than a hundred times the £11.6million in corporation tax Google paid in 2012.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699746/Welcome-Beverly-Hills-Britain-Surrey-residents-pay-tax-head-Britain-corporation-tax-Google.html0 -
Bet Cameron is furious with Warsi. Israel too powerful for the UK government to criticise them.
Israel isn't listening to anybody. Any government criticising Israel is wasting its breath.0 -
No, independence will happen when both sides agree a deal. In the rUK at least that will have to be signed off by Parliament and may also be the subject of a referendum.Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
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It reads more like a dislike of the Tory party and its booting out of her mates than a heartfelt criticism of whatever it was that Dave said about Israel/Gaza.DavidL said:Warsi's letter is curious in that it is not explicit about what the difference of principle is that has caused here to resign but the reference to the judgment of Clarke and Grieve is quite telling.
Whilst not a member of the party I share the concern of those who think the government's respect for the rule of law was diminished by the recent changes, particularly to the Law Officers, and the indications are that a slightly more cavalier approach is going to be taken to matters such as human rights. That is regrettable.0 -
It's rare for a minister to resign on a matter of conscience. Even if you do not agree with what she believes, it is good she has principles enough to have been true to them. In the great scheme of things, though, I doubt it will make much difference to anything.hucks67 said:Bet Cameron is furious with Warsi. Israel too powerful for the UK government to criticise them.
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I'm glad the penny has finally dropped on what independence negotiations are going to be like......malcolmg said:
The point is that being a 10% part of a partnership means the larger partner tramps all over you whilst making the decisions based on his 90% opinionCarlottaVance said:
My guess is its all part of the Scot Nat narrative that Scotland is effectively an oppressed colony of the English and therefore it is impossible to be both a Scottish Nationalist and a Unionist as Unionism is equivalent to British (hegemonic) nationalism. Or something. But as you observe, its tough to get a dialogue going with most of the Nationalist persuasion - it swiftly collapses into slogans 'its our pound too!'.......SouthamObserver said:
Not at all. British nationalism certainly exists. I was just interested in understanding why you believe the professor is wrong to assert that unionism does not necessarily equate to British nationalism. Why do you reject his explanation of why he does not consider himself a British nationalist?Theuniondivvie said:
Let me take a wild guess, quoting the prof's own intemperate remarks and referring to British nationalism will be regarded as ill-considered abuse.Stuart_Dickson said:
They will never ever learn.Theuniondivvie said:
If only there was a considered, non-abusive piece to respond to.SouthamObserver said:
As I said yesterday, it would be good to read a considered, non-abusive response from someone on the Yes side.
'socialist utopia', 'profoundly misguided', 'an impoverished and depleted view of the world', 'deficiencies', 'blinkered', 'ferocity'.
I wonder which side of the debate this master of Olympian detachment is referring to? Still, some amusement is to be gained from Unionists who've just about managed to accept the description of Unionist now trying to push their British nationalism to the back of the closet.
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Last one was Robin Cook I thinkSouthamObserver said:
It's rare for a minister to resign on a matter of conscience. Even if you do not agree with what she believes, it is good she has principals enough to have been true to them. In the great scheme of things, though, I doubt it will make much difference to anything.hucks67 said:Bet Cameron is furious with Warsi. Israel too powerful for the UK government to criticise them.
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A sensible intelligent post , frothers take note.Cyclefree said:
In my experience, cock-ups explain most things.Pulpstar said:
Eoin Clarke's OTT hyperbole was just as bad a Mensch tbh.TGOHF said:
Harry Cole @MrHarryCole · 1hHugh said:
And that someone in Cameron's Government was, unusually and for unknown reasons, involved in changing arrangements...SouthamObserver said:
The narrative changed very quickly after it emerged all the senior political leaders except Cameron had similar messages.Pulpstar said:@Southamobserver - Not a peep from any paper regarding the wreaths.
SouthamObserver said:
It will be horrific for Miliband in the Mail, the Sun and the Express tomorrow.Pulpstar said:The telling point will be how many commentators/papers run with Ed's note as opposed to or with Clegg's as a minor footnote to the article.
Guardian retract their bold claim that 'only Cameron was allowed to include a personal message on his wreath'. Goodbye conspiracy theory.
As Cyclefree pointed out here - cock up rather than conspiracy.
Anyway, despite not being Scottish and not having a vote, I still think we will have a Yes vote. No basis at all for saying this other than:-
1. My natural inclination - were I a voter in this I would probably vote yes simply because self-respect as a nation is an important concept.
2. The "Better Together" campaign has been so relentlessly negative - about how everything would fall apart if Scotland were not in the UK. There's been nothing positive about it all, at least so far as I can see. What is the positive case for being in the United Kingdom - beyond "we must all huddle together for warmth"?0 -
''whatever it was that Dave said about Israel/Gaza.''
The Spectator claims Warsi wanted to be made foreign secretary in the reshuffle.
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Are you under the impression that France isnt "truly independent"? Or the Netherlands? Or Finland?SouthamObserver said:
Here's a substantive issue: how can Scotland be truly independent when, if the SNP gets the currency union it wants, the country's fiscal and economic policy will have to be signed off in London?malcolmg said:
Exactly , define you substantive issueHugh said:
What do you consider a "substantive issue", and is it the same as a Yes campaigner / Scottish Nationalist?SouthamObserver said:
I have learned that to get a Scottish nationalist to engage in an argument about substantive issues is a task that is almost impossible to achieve. It's a shame really. I'd love to know why you believe the professor is wrong.Stuart_Dickson said:
They will never ever learn.Theuniondivvie said:
If only there was a considered, non-abusive piece to respond to.SouthamObserver said:
As I said yesterday, it would be good to read a considered, non-abusive response from someone on the Yes side.
'socialist utopia', 'profoundly misguided', 'an impoverished and depleted view of the world', 'deficiencies', 'blinkered', 'ferocity'.
I wonder which side of the debate this master of Olympian detachment is referring to? Still, some amusement is to be gained from Unionists who've just about managed to accept the description of Unionist now trying to push their British nationalism to the back of the closet.
And how many Scottish Nationalists do you regularly try to engage with, and where? Just on here?
To the extent that your description is accurate, it applies to Unionists as much as Nationalists in my opinion.
I think you'd be in a small minority of people who thought that.
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That's a bit harsh on Alex Salmondmalcolmg said:
Gaining independence has no relevance to "divorce" and anyone who tries to suggest so is either stupid or mendacious.TheScreamingEagles said:
Divorces are always messy. Especially when assets and liabilities are involved.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
All the assets are mine, the liabilities are yours kinda thing.
In 1707 we should have signed a pre-nup*
*I know.
Salmond outlines a velvet divorce
Jul 17, 2014 : With the vote on independence just two months away, Alex Salmond, first minister of Scotland, talks to the FT's editor Lionel Barber about why Scotland should go it alone and how it would maintain good relations with its neighbours.
http://video.ft.com/3680855317001/Salmond-outlines-a-velvet-divorce/World
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then there is the realityTheuniondivvie said:Libdem holds up written pledge in photo op. Has this ever happened before?
http://tinyurl.com/mxyn6j3
http://b68389.medialib.glogster.com/media/bd31428373c4c16f3bffff5859389d1f184187ef100550fed15b2c6cdd553ef2/blank-scroll.jpg0 -
I agree - while they haven't done much damage (yet) the talk has been pretty concerning - and despite what his detractors say, Cameron generally does do what he says. Grieve was a loss to the government.DavidL said:Whilst not a member of the party I share the concern of those who think the government's respect for the rule of law was diminished by the recent changes, particularly to the Law Officers, and the indications are that a slightly more cavalier approach is going to be taken to matters such as human rights. That is regrettable.
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Will it, by Jove? Is not that the target date set by the pro-independence campaign? I don't think its written in stone or even in law. Independence will happen when the negotiations have been completed and the necessary legislation passed. It might be possible to do all the work in 18 months, it depends on how detailed the parties want to be and how much thought they have already put in. My gut feel is that nothing like enough work has been done so far by either side, indeed word reaches me from old friends that Whitehall has been barred from doing any serious planning.Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
One option might be to go for the quick and dirty separation and get the whole thing done and dusted by April 2015. I don't think the Scots would like that very much though, it would be too much to their disadvantage.0 -
Is the UK Government scared of Israel and/or the US?
No. The UK government is scared of UKIP. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what Israel has done, Gaza is led by islamists. Cameron cannot be seen to siding with them because UKIP is breathing down his neck.
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oh. It's silence is it?murali_s said:
Cameron's silence on Gaza is deafening. Is the UK Government scared of Israel and/or the US?taffys said:''whatever it was that Dave said about Israel/Gaza.''
The Spectator claims Warsi wanted to be made foreign secretary in the reshuffle.
I thought it was, as the good Lady Lady says:
"more recently our approach and language during the current crisis in Gaza is morally indefensible"
what language was indefensible?0 -
TOPPING said:
It reads more like a dislike of the Tory party and its booting out of her mates than a heartfelt criticism of whatever it was that Dave said about Israel/Gaza.DavidL said:Warsi's letter is curious in that it is not explicit about what the difference of principle is that has caused here to resign but the reference to the judgment of Clarke and Grieve is quite telling.
Whilst not a member of the party I share the concern of those who think the government's respect for the rule of law was diminished by the recent changes, particularly to the Law Officers, and the indications are that a slightly more cavalier approach is going to be taken to matters such as human rights. That is regrettable.
Paul Goodman has a good article about it at Con Home. British Muslim opinion is overwhelmingly opposed to Israel. She is one of the few prominent Conservatives who is in touch with British Muslim opinion.
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It's the date proposed by the Government who will be leading Scotland from the ballot result to independence. As such I put more store in it than I do in the random postings of those of us on pbc who think a different date would be better.HurstLlama said:
Will it, by Jove? Is not that the target date set by the pro-independence campaign?Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
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Why would having a currency union bar you from being independent. Many countries share currencies but consider themselves independent. Are you saying that France , Germany and Italy are not independent because they share a currency.SouthamObserver said:
Here's a substantive issue: how can Scotland be truly independent when, if the SNP gets the currency union it wants, the country's fiscal and economic policy will have to be signed off in London?malcolmg said:
Exactly , define you substantive issueHugh said:
What do you consider a "substantive issue", and is it the same as a Yes campaigner / Scottish Nationalist?SouthamObserver said:
I have learned that to get a Scottish nationalist to engage in an argument about substantive issues is a task that is almost impossible to achieve. It's a shame really. I'd love to know why you believe the professor is wrong.Stuart_Dickson said:
They will never ever learn.Theuniondivvie said:
If only there was a considered, non-abusive piece to respond to.SouthamObserver said:
As I said yesterday, it would be good to read a considered, non-abusive response from someone on the Yes side.
'socialist utopia', 'profoundly misguided', 'an impoverished and depleted view of the world', 'deficiencies', 'blinkered', 'ferocity'.
I wonder which side of the debate this master of Olympian detachment is referring to? Still, some amusement is to be gained from Unionists who've just about managed to accept the description of Unionist now trying to push their British nationalism to the back of the closet.
And how many Scottish Nationalists do you regularly try to engage with, and where? Just on here?
To the extent that your description is accurate, it applies to Unionists as much as Nationalists in my opinion.
Any currency union would involve negotiations and RULES set for both parties, it would not mean Scotland ceding to rUK. What those terms are is moot but certainly will not be as you seem to suggest.0 -
For the avoidance of doubt SO I am very confident that Scotland will vote no. My concern is that I think it will be so close that the result itself is destabilising resulting in a re-run of these discussions much sooner than I would like (ie while I am still alive). If we got 60:40 or better I think this would be put to bed for about 40 years. If, as I fear, it is more like 54:46 I don't think that will be the case.SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha. I hope to be as wrong as I was about Romney. But this time I fear I may turn out to be right. The certainty of the Yes supporters is very convincing, especially when most of the few No supporters on here who are based in Scotland seem to be less than certain of their chances. Most of all, though, if it does come to a separation let's hope it is a clean one. Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.Pulpstar said:
One to be filed with the Romney predictions in due time. I feel your prediction record won't be adversely affected.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
I also have concerns about the stability of devo-max being promised today. It seems to me that like devolution before it this is a weakening of the glue and ties that bind us together as a single country making independence more attractive and less daunting.
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SO , the markets etc will force the issue, they will not be able to vacillate and drag things out.SouthamObserver said:
No, independence will happen when both sides agree a deal. In the rUK at least that will have to be signed off by Parliament and may also be the subject of a referendum.Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
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So you think that the date is set and that negotiation and legislation will not matter? It is an interesting view but not one that will be widely shared in government circles.Neil said:
It's the date proposed by the Government who will be leading Scotland from the ballot result to independence. As such I put more store in it than I do in the random postings of those of us on pbc who think a different date would be better.HurstLlama said:
Will it, by Jove? Is not that the target date set by the pro-independence campaign?Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
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Yes I suppose that makes sense, just that her letter sounded rather half-hearted actually on Gaza and much more hearted on Tory party personnel changes...Sean_F said:TOPPING said:
It reads more like a dislike of the Tory party and its booting out of her mates than a heartfelt criticism of whatever it was that Dave said about Israel/Gaza.DavidL said:Warsi's letter is curious in that it is not explicit about what the difference of principle is that has caused here to resign but the reference to the judgment of Clarke and Grieve is quite telling.
Whilst not a member of the party I share the concern of those who think the government's respect for the rule of law was diminished by the recent changes, particularly to the Law Officers, and the indications are that a slightly more cavalier approach is going to be taken to matters such as human rights. That is regrettable.
Paul Goodman has a good article about it at Con Home. British Muslim opinion is overwhelmingly opposed to Israel. She is one of the few prominent Conservatives who is in touch with British Muslim opinion.0 -
He needs a slapTheScreamingEagles said:
That's a bit harsh on Alex Salmondmalcolmg said:
Gaining independence has no relevance to "divorce" and anyone who tries to suggest so is either stupid or mendacious.TheScreamingEagles said:
Divorces are always messy. Especially when assets and liabilities are involved.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
All the assets are mine, the liabilities are yours kinda thing.
In 1707 we should have signed a pre-nup*
*I know.
Salmond outlines a velvet divorce
Jul 17, 2014 : With the vote on independence just two months away, Alex Salmond, first minister of Scotland, talks to the FT's editor Lionel Barber about why Scotland should go it alone and how it would maintain good relations with its neighbours.
http://video.ft.com/3680855317001/Salmond-outlines-a-velvet-divorce/World
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And UKIP supporters tend to be pro-israeli, while generally reluctant to get involved in foreign conflicts.taffys said:Is the UK Government scared of Israel and/or the US?
No. The UK government is scared of UKIP. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what Israel has done, Gaza is led by islamists. Cameron cannot be seen to siding with them because UKIP is breathing down his neck.0 -
LOL , how dare you talk sense.Neil said:
It's the date proposed by the Government who will be leading Scotland from the ballot result to independence. As such I put more store in it than I do in the random postings of those of us on pbc who think a different date would be better.HurstLlama said:
Will it, by Jove? Is not that the target date set by the pro-independence campaign?Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
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The Warsi resignation.
Could this be Cameron's biggest disaster?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/08/baroness-warsi-was-over-promoted-incapable-and-incompetent/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=baroness-warsi-was-over-promoted-incapable-and-incompetent&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
http://order-order.com/2014/08/05/so-long-farewell-sayeeda-says-goodbye/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/05/lady-warsi-resignation-cameron-gaza0 -
''And UKIP supporters tend to be pro-israeli, while generally reluctant to get involved in foreign conflicts. ''
Has Farage said anything about this, by the way? I've never read anything.0 -
David , they are promising nothing , if NO then Scotland is finished. However it will be quite different to how you hope it to be.DavidL said:
For the avoidance of doubt SO I am very confident that Scotland will vote no. My concern is that I think it will be so close that the result itself is destabilising resulting in a re-run of these discussions much sooner than I would like (ie while I am still alive). If we got 60:40 or better I think this would be put to bed for about 40 years. If, as I fear, it is more like 54:46 I don't think that will be the case.SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha. I hope to be as wrong as I was about Romney. But this time I fear I may turn out to be right. The certainty of the Yes supporters is very convincing, especially when most of the few No supporters on here who are based in Scotland seem to be less than certain of their chances. Most of all, though, if it does come to a separation let's hope it is a clean one. Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.Pulpstar said:
One to be filed with the Romney predictions in due time. I feel your prediction record won't be adversely affected.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
I also have concerns about the stability of devo-max being promised today. It seems to me that like devolution before it this is a weakening of the glue and ties that bind us together as a single country making independence more attractive and less daunting.
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As I've commented before, it reminds me of the debate over EU membership. Out will easily organise the biggest public meetings, and comfortably win the war on the ground, but that's not necessarily enough.DavidL said:
For the avoidance of doubt SO I am very confident that Scotland will vote no. My concern is that I think it will be so close that the result itself is destabilising resulting in a re-run of these discussions much sooner than I would like (ie while I am still alive). If we got 60:40 or better I think this would be put to bed for about 40 years. If, as I fear, it is more like 54:46 I don't think that will be the case.SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha. I hope to be as wrong as I was about Romney. But this time I fear I may turn out to be right. The certainty of the Yes supporters is very convincing, especially when most of the few No supporters on here who are based in Scotland seem to be less than certain of their chances. Most of all, though, if it does come to a separation let's hope it is a clean one. Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.Pulpstar said:
One to be filed with the Romney predictions in due time. I feel your prediction record won't be adversely affected.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
I also have concerns about the stability of devo-max being promised today. It seems to me that like devolution before it this is a weakening of the glue and ties that bind us together as a single country making independence more attractive and less daunting.
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Could this be Cameron's biggest disaster?
If you read some of the big right wing blogs hiring Warsi was a much bigger disaster. This is a boon.
Warsi drove a fair few to UKIP...??0 -
Hurst, self interest will be all that matters to the troughers. They will all be looking to get in the lifeboats.HurstLlama said:
So you think that the date is set and that negotiation and legislation will not matter? It is an interesting view but not one that will be widely shared in government circles.Neil said:
It's the date proposed by the Government who will be leading Scotland from the ballot result to independence. As such I put more store in it than I do in the random postings of those of us on pbc who think a different date would be better.HurstLlama said:
Will it, by Jove? Is not that the target date set by the pro-independence campaign?Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
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Yes, I think it makes a lot of sense for independence to be sorted out by this Government in this Parliament and for the Government elected in 2016 to be the first to take charge of an independent Scotland (rather than spending more time dealing with Westminster). If Scotland votes 'yes' the legitimacy lies with the Government in Holyrood and if they want independence before the next election and there seems to be little reason for believing it cant be achieved then that certainly seems to me to be the most likely outcome.HurstLlama said:
So you think that the date is set and that negotiation and legislation will not matter? It is an interesting view but not one that will be widely shared in government circles.Neil said:
It's the date proposed by the Government who will be leading Scotland from the ballot result to independence. As such I put more store in it than I do in the random postings of those of us on pbc who think a different date would be better.HurstLlama said:
Will it, by Jove? Is not that the target date set by the pro-independence campaign?Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
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If they had promised an answer to WLQ to go along with that I'd be interested, but as someone likely to move back to England at some point it makes me even more inclined to vote yes. As did the Scottish Labour NO placard I saw in someone's window in Dumbarton yesterday.CarlottaVance said:David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have signed a joint declaration that promises more financial powers for Scotland if it rejects independence.
The move by the leaders of the three main parties is an attempt to rubbish claims by Alex Salmond that Westminster will not deliver more devolution if Scots vote ‘no’.
The unprecedented joint declaration comes on the day of a TV debate between Scottish First Minister Mr Salmond and Alistair Darling, the former Labour Chancellor who fronts the pro-union Better Together campaign.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2716157/Party-leaders-agree-let-Scots-set-taxes-Move-attempt-rubbish-Salmonds-claims-Westminster-not-offer-powers-following-no-vote.html
It generally feels like the whole campaign is satirical, with the YES gimps actually trying to get me to vote no and the NO gimps trying to persuade me to vote yes.0 -
Two years old, and the video is not first class in any way; still it's intersting:taffys said:''And UKIP supporters tend to be pro-israeli, while generally reluctant to get involved in foreign conflicts. ''
Has Farage said anything about this, by the way? I've never read anything.
ChrisWynThom @ChrisWynThom 18m
Nigel Farage on Islam in the UK http://fb.me/2lpERdTpj0 -
On a few blogs you can see lots of comments along the lines of "all the poster / bumper stickers etc.. say yes - we are bound to win". Obviously from people who have never previously been involved in an election campaign in their lives (which is great, obviously, just dont bet on the back of their analysis!).Sean_F said:
As I've commented before, it reminds me of the debate over EU membership. Out will easily organise the biggest public meetings, and comfortably win the war on the ground, but that's not necessarily enough.DavidL said:
For the avoidance of doubt SO I am very confident that Scotland will vote no. My concern is that I think it will be so close that the result itself is destabilising resulting in a re-run of these discussions much sooner than I would like (ie while I am still alive). If we got 60:40 or better I think this would be put to bed for about 40 years. If, as I fear, it is more like 54:46 I don't think that will be the case.SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha. I hope to be as wrong as I was about Romney. But this time I fear I may turn out to be right. The certainty of the Yes supporters is very convincing, especially when most of the few No supporters on here who are based in Scotland seem to be less than certain of their chances. Most of all, though, if it does come to a separation let's hope it is a clean one. Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.Pulpstar said:
One to be filed with the Romney predictions in due time. I feel your prediction record won't be adversely affected.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
I also have concerns about the stability of devo-max being promised today. It seems to me that like devolution before it this is a weakening of the glue and ties that bind us together as a single country making independence more attractive and less daunting.
0 -
Before Independence there is the referendum and the Scottish people will vote overwhelmingly NO making all your thinking redundant0
-
Just received the competing material from HMG and The Scottish Government. HMG one is amateurish and very poor. Keep the pound , lower bills , more public services and so just more lies and dire presentation.
Contrast with a professional one from Scottish Government that is positive , gives options and promotes Scotland and the people, it is no contest.0 -
I was quite confident the result was likely to be 'no' until Mark intervened!MarkSenior said:Before Independence there is the referendum and the Scottish people will vote overwhelmingly NO making all your thinking redundant
0 -
to be generous to them let's say that they are probably anti-islamist rather than anti-islamic.SeanT said:
I suspect UKIP supporters are not pro-Israeli; it's more that they are anti-Islamic.Sean_F said:
And UKIP supporters tend to be pro-israeli, while generally reluctant to get involved in foreign conflicts.taffys said:Is the UK Government scared of Israel and/or the US?
No. The UK government is scared of UKIP. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what Israel has done, Gaza is led by islamists. Cameron cannot be seen to siding with them because UKIP is breathing down his neck.0 -
@Southamobserver has predicted a Yes win though.Neil said:
I was quite confident the result was likely to be 'no' until Mark intervened!MarkSenior said:Before Independence there is the referendum and the Scottish people will vote overwhelmingly NO making all your thinking redundant
0 -
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
0 -
Thats quite true @TOPPING. Islam as a religion; fine. Islam as a political movement; No sir!!!!TOPPING said:
to be generous to them let's say that they are probably anti-islamist rather than anti-islamic.SeanT said:
I suspect UKIP supporters are not pro-Israeli; it's more that they are anti-Islamic.Sean_F said:
And UKIP supporters tend to be pro-israeli, while generally reluctant to get involved in foreign conflicts.taffys said:Is the UK Government scared of Israel and/or the US?
No. The UK government is scared of UKIP. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what Israel has done, Gaza is led by islamists. Cameron cannot be seen to siding with them because UKIP is breathing down his neck.0 -
There is a difference between an 'open-minded' and 'empty head'.......malcolmg said:Just received the competing material from HMG and The Scottish Government. HMG one is amateurish and very poor. Keep the pound , lower bills , more public services and so just more lies and dire presentation.
Contrast with a professional one from Scottish Government that is positive , gives options and promotes Scotland and the people, it is no contest.
Did the Scottish Govt one tell you what your currency would be (since the other one told you it wouldn't be the £?)
0 -
Mr. G., I think self interest will what matters most to both sides of the negotiations. If it doesn't someone won't be doing their job. The separation will be immensely complex and I really don't think that enough thought has been put in by either side. I obviously can't talk about the Scottish Civil service but my information is that the London end have just buried their heads in the sand and, what is worse, been forbidden by their political masters form doing any real thinking/contingency planning.malcolmg said:
Hurst, self interest will be all that matters to the troughers. They will all be looking to get in the lifeboats.HurstLlama said:
So you think that the date is set and that negotiation and legislation will not matter? It is an interesting view but not one that will be widely shared in government circles.Neil said:
It's the date proposed by the Government who will be leading Scotland from the ballot result to independence. As such I put more store in it than I do in the random postings of those of us on pbc who think a different date would be better.HurstLlama said:
Will it, by Jove? Is not that the target date set by the pro-independence campaign?Neil said:
Independence will be in early 2016 so it would be just 18 months of negotiations at most.SouthamObserver said:Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.
Aside from the political issues there are also the practical ones. An independent Scotland needs its own tax and benefit systems, its own system of driver and vehicle licensing and so many other systems. They can't be conjured up overnight. You and I spoke on here some months ago about where is the data now, how does it get to where it needs to be post independence? Computer systems will have to be procured, many government systems are run on ancient mainframes, can new hardware be procured that is capable of running existing programs if not can the data be converted for more modern applications? Can those new applications be written, tested, installed in time?
I really don't think its a matter of troughers or liars or anyone wanting to drag anything out. It is going to come down to the length of time it takes to negotiate an acceptable deal and then implement that deal. Can that be done in 18 months? I doubt it, unless England goes for the quick and dirty and that will not be to Scotland's benefit.0 -
Ed agrees with Warsi
- i.e. he doesn't like Dave either.0 -
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself0 -
Palestine protesters removed from BBC Bristol site, today.
http://www.itv.com/news/west/update/2014-08-05/gaza-protesters-evicted-from-bbc-headquarters-in-bristol/
0 -
Roger in the past said Yes would winNeil said:
I was quite confident the result was likely to be 'no' until Mark intervened!MarkSenior said:Before Independence there is the referendum and the Scottish people will vote overwhelmingly NO making all your thinking redundant
0 -
No, I am under the impression that the rUK government will have learned a number of lessons from the absolute disaster that the Eurozone has been and will ensure that any British currency union is a lot more robust. And as it is the rUK that will be dictating the terms of any agreement, we will get something that will mean the Scottish government will have to have its fiscal and economic policy signed off in London before it can be implemented. Obviously, Scotland will be independent in the sense that it will have a UN seat, an Olympics team, a Eurovision entry and so on, but in terms of freedom of economic and fiscal action it will not be close - and certainly far less so than France, Finland and co are currently (but may not be in the future).Neil said:
Are you under the impression that France isnt "truly independent"? Or the Netherlands? Or Finland?SouthamObserver said:
Here's a substantive issue: how can Scotland be truly independent when, if the SNP gets the currency union it wants, the country's fiscal and economic policy will have to be signed off in London?malcolmg said:
Exactly , define you substantive issueHugh said:
What do you consider a "substantive issue", and is it the same as a Yes campaigner / Scottish Nationalist?SouthamObserver said:
I have learned that to get a Scottish nationalist to engage in an argument about substantive issues is a task that is almost impossible to achieve. It's a shame really. I'd love to know why you believe the professor is wrong.Stuart_Dickson said:
They will never ever learn.Theuniondivvie said:
If only there was a considered, non-abusive piece to respond to.SouthamObserver said:
As I said yesterday, it would be good to read a considered, non-abusive response from someone on the Yes side.
'socialist utopia', 'profoundly misguided', 'an impoverished and depleted view of the world', 'deficiencies', 'blinkered', 'ferocity'.
I wonder which side of the debate this master of Olympian detachment is referring to? Still, some amusement is to be gained from Unionists who've just about managed to accept the description of Unionist now trying to push their British nationalism to the back of the closet.
And how many Scottish Nationalists do you regularly try to engage with, and where? Just on here?
To the extent that your description is accurate, it applies to Unionists as much as Nationalists in my opinion.
I think you'd be in a small minority of people who thought that.
0 -
If only Dave had come out with more Clegg style platitudes this could all have been avoided says Ed..0
-
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
0 -
No need to panic over Scotland have you seen the MCARSE
As much chance of a yes win as LD holding Cambridge
Oh hang on just seen ARSE predicting LD hold (12.3% chance according to Electoral Calculus) Not even TCTC according to ARSE0 -
Suggests Jack's ARSE has factored in the quality of the Labour candidate in Cambridge.bigjohnowls said:No need to panic over Scotland have you seen the MCARSE
As much chance of a yes win as LD holding Cambridge
Oh hang on just seen ARSE predicting LD hold (12.3% chance according to Electoral Calculus) Not even TCTC according to ARSE
He finished 3rd in 2010 - another 2010 loser MP back to prove the voters wrong...0 -
SeanT said:
I suspect UKIP supporters are not pro-Israeli; it's more that they are anti-Islamic.</Sean_F said:
And UKIP supporters tend to be pro-israeli, while generally reluctant to get involved in foreign conflicts.taffys said:Is the UK Government scared of Israel and/or the US?
No. The UK government is scared of UKIP. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what Israel has done, Gaza is led by islamists. Cameron cannot be seen to siding with them because UKIP is breathing down his neck.
I think there's a big element of my enemy's enemy is my friend. In the same way that French people expelled from Algeria were massively pro-Israel in 1967.0 -
Lest we forget
"http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/Outrage-over-use-of-Nazi-salute-in-university-debate.htm"
"Speaking to the News, Mr Zeichner apologised to the Jewish community but said the Nazi salute was “a fully reasonable way to point out that the Conservatives made very undesirable alliances”.0 -
Opinion polls can be wrong, but not usually.Neil said:
On a few blogs you can see lots of comments along the lines of "all the poster / bumper stickers etc.. say yes - we are bound to win". Obviously from people who have never previously been involved in an election campaign in their lives (which is great, obviously, just dont bet on the back of their analysis!).Sean_F said:
As I've commented before, it reminds me of the debate over EU membership. Out will easily organise the biggest public meetings, and comfortably win the war on the ground, but that's not necessarily enough.DavidL said:
For the avoidance of doubt SO I am very confident that Scotland will vote no. My concern is that I think it will be so close that the result itself is destabilising resulting in a re-run of these discussions much sooner than I would like (ie while I am still alive). If we got 60:40 or better I think this would be put to bed for about 40 years. If, as I fear, it is more like 54:46 I don't think that will be the case.SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha. I hope to be as wrong as I was about Romney. But this time I fear I may turn out to be right. The certainty of the Yes supporters is very convincing, especially when most of the few No supporters on here who are based in Scotland seem to be less than certain of their chances. Most of all, though, if it does come to a separation let's hope it is a clean one. Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.Pulpstar said:
One to be filed with the Romney predictions in due time. I feel your prediction record won't be adversely affected.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
I also have concerns about the stability of devo-max being promised today. It seems to me that like devolution before it this is a weakening of the glue and ties that bind us together as a single country making independence more attractive and less daunting.
0 -
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too0 -
Baroness Warsi - Good for her for resigning on a point a principle!
However, I fear the force of her resignation has been blunted by the way she's tried to inflict the maximum damage she can on Dave.
Leave's you questioning whether she's really resigned on principle or just because she hate's Dave's guts...0 -
If either side wins by less than 9-10% it will be quite unsatisfactory won't it?malcolmg said:
David , they are promising nothing , if NO then Scotland is finished. However it will be quite different to how you hope it to be.DavidL said:
For the avoidance of doubt SO I am very confident that Scotland will vote no. My concern is that I think it will be so close that the result itself is destabilising resulting in a re-run of these discussions much sooner than I would like (ie while I am still alive). If we got 60:40 or better I think this would be put to bed for about 40 years. If, as I fear, it is more like 54:46 I don't think that will be the case.SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha. I hope to be as wrong as I was about Romney. But this time I fear I may turn out to be right. The certainty of the Yes supporters is very convincing, especially when most of the few No supporters on here who are based in Scotland seem to be less than certain of their chances. Most of all, though, if it does come to a separation let's hope it is a clean one. Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.Pulpstar said:
One to be filed with the Romney predictions in due time. I feel your prediction record won't be adversely affected.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
I also have concerns about the stability of devo-max being promised today. It seems to me that like devolution before it this is a weakening of the glue and ties that bind us together as a single country making independence more attractive and less daunting.
If I were in charge I'd have a referendum every two years or so until one side got a 20% margin
0 -
Is there much evidence for that? More likely the British public will want to cut back austerity and spend, if the finances are improving. The economy was looking good in 97!peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).0 -
Even fools know that one , HMG lying does not hide the realityCarlottaVance said:
There is a difference between an 'open-minded' and 'empty head'.......malcolmg said:Just received the competing material from HMG and The Scottish Government. HMG one is amateurish and very poor. Keep the pound , lower bills , more public services and so just more lies and dire presentation.
Contrast with a professional one from Scottish Government that is positive , gives options and promotes Scotland and the people, it is no contest.
Did the Scottish Govt one tell you what your currency would be (since the other one told you it wouldn't be the £?)
PS : just for you , it clearly states the published policy which is "We'll keep the pound"0 -
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
0 -
The name is a give awaySean_F said:
Opinion polls can be wrong, but not usually.Neil said:
On a few blogs you can see lots of comments along the lines of "all the poster / bumper stickers etc.. say yes - we are bound to win". Obviously from people who have never previously been involved in an election campaign in their lives (which is great, obviously, just dont bet on the back of their analysis!).Sean_F said:
As I've commented before, it reminds me of the debate over EU membership. Out will easily organise the biggest public meetings, and comfortably win the war on the ground, but that's not necessarily enough.DavidL said:
For the avoidance of doubt SO I am very confident that Scotland will vote no. My concern is that I think it will be so close that the result itself is destabilising resulting in a re-run of these discussions much sooner than I would like (ie while I am still alive). If we got 60:40 or better I think this would be put to bed for about 40 years. If, as I fear, it is more like 54:46 I don't think that will be the case.SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha. I hope to be as wrong as I was about Romney. But this time I fear I may turn out to be right. The certainty of the Yes supporters is very convincing, especially when most of the few No supporters on here who are based in Scotland seem to be less than certain of their chances. Most of all, though, if it does come to a separation let's hope it is a clean one. Years of messy negotiation is not going to help anybody.Pulpstar said:
One to be filed with the Romney predictions in due time. I feel your prediction record won't be adversely affected.SouthamObserver said:I am very bullish on a Yes vote on 18th September. It'll be close, but divorce looks pretty certain to me. Hopefully, it won't be too messy.
I also have concerns about the stability of devo-max being promised today. It seems to me that like devolution before it this is a weakening of the glue and ties that bind us together as a single country making independence more attractive and less daunting.0 -
This really is a theme now, significant elements of Israeli opinion are openly genocidal.
Perhaps we should look at the facts rather than the rhetoric??
Israel has called off its attack at a point where it arguably had Gaza at its mercy, with the international community poised to do nothing.0 -
Completely off topic:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28656050
I must have read this wrong, as from what I surmise Ecclestone has halted his $44m bribery trial by paying a $100m fee, which in effect seems to be another bribe?0 -
Really you agree with ARSE that Cambridge will be a comfortable LD hold not even TCTC.TGOHF said:
Suggests Jack's ARSE has factored in the quality of the Labour candidate in Cambridge.bigjohnowls said:No need to panic over Scotland have you seen the MCARSE
As much chance of a yes win as LD holding Cambridge
Oh hang on just seen ARSE predicting LD hold (12.3% chance according to Electoral Calculus) Not even TCTC according to ARSE
He finished 3rd in 2010 - another 2010 loser MP back to prove the voters wrong...
We will see. I have it as a Lab Gain myself
Shadsy offering Evs on an LD win must be at least 6/4 on LD by more than 5000 -
-
0
-
It will be closer than 2010 - Labour might even finish 2nd.bigjohnowls said:
Really you agree with ARSE that Cambridge will be a comfortable LD hold not even TCTC.TGOHF said:
Suggests Jack's ARSE has factored in the quality of the Labour candidate in Cambridge.bigjohnowls said:No need to panic over Scotland have you seen the MCARSE
As much chance of a yes win as LD holding Cambridge
Oh hang on just seen ARSE predicting LD hold (12.3% chance according to Electoral Calculus) Not even TCTC according to ARSE
He finished 3rd in 2010 - another 2010 loser MP back to prove the voters wrong...
We will see. I have it as a Lab Gain myself
Shadsy offering Evs on an LD win must be at least 6/4 on LD by more than 500
0 -
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
0 -
I think both sides have lost sight of any vision for what a peaceful existence would look like. Therefore they show no desire to bring it about.SeanT said:
Wow, so the 2000 dead Palestinians, and the 400,000 displaced Palestinians, should be grateful for Israeli not actually nuking them?taffys said:This really is a theme now, significant elements of Israeli opinion are openly genocidal.
Perhaps we should look at the facts rather than the rhetoric??
Israel has called off its attack at a point where it arguably had Gaza at its mercy, with the international community poised to do nothing.
Do you even believe this drivel?
Fact is there have now been articles in the Times of Israel, Ynet, and the Jerusalem Post all arguing for the ethnic cleansing or outright extermination of ALL Gazans. The Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, no less, has said the same.
A cursory reading of the comments underneath these articles (and equivalent Facebook sites) shows strong support for these ideas amongst ordinary Israelis. We also have the visual evidence of Israelis singing "Death to Arabs" and cheering on the slaughter of Gazan kids.
It is undeniable. It may not be the majority opinion in Israel yet, but a significant proportion of Israelis are spiralling into violent racist supremacism. aka Nazism.
It's catastrophic for Israel.0 -
''A cursory reading of the comments underneath these articles...''
The most liked comment under the Warsi resignation story in the Daily Express is the one effectively calling for the ethnic cleansing of Muslims from British society. Not Islamists. Muslims.
Doesn;t mean we are on the point of doing that now, or at any time in the near future. Or any future.0 -
GDP per head fell by 8% between 2008-10. That doesn't alter the fact that it will have risen by 5-6% between 2010-15. Most people will be better off than they were in May 2010, but worse off than at the end of 2007.bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
0 -
Plus sizable income tax cuts for those in work not paying 40%bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
0 -
The removal of much of the threat of unemployment for those in work will be another factor.TGOHF said:
Plus sizable income tax cuts for those in work not paying 40%bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%0 -
You are only considering the public sector.bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
In the real world wages fell off a cliff from 2008, and have slowly worked there way back up so most outside of the previously cosseted public sector are feeling better off than they were.0 -
The pound does not belong to Scotland. The statement “it’s as much Scotland’s currency as it is the rest of the UK’s” is false. The pound is the UK currency. It belongs neither to Scotland nor to England but to the UK. If Scotland votes Yes next month, Scotland will have voted to leave the UK. Leave the UK and you leave the UK’s public institutions, including the UK pound. This has been clear for months and months and months, yet still the Scottish Government are in denial about it. But you no longer have to take my or any other No campaigner’s word for it. Last month Lawyers for Yes wrote on their website that it is “true to say that the public institutions of the UK would become the public institutions of rUK” and that “the Bank of England is a UK body and the pound is the UK’s currency, and as ‘institutions’ of the UK they would stay with the UK”.malcolmg said:
Even fools know that one , HMG lying does not hide the realityCarlottaVance said:
There is a difference between an 'open-minded' and 'empty head'.......malcolmg said:Just received the competing material from HMG and The Scottish Government. HMG one is amateurish and very poor. Keep the pound , lower bills , more public services and so just more lies and dire presentation.
Contrast with a professional one from Scottish Government that is positive , gives options and promotes Scotland and the people, it is no contest.
Did the Scottish Govt one tell you what your currency would be (since the other one told you it wouldn't be the £?)
PS : just for you , it clearly states the published policy which is "We'll keep the pound"
There you have it. Lawyers for Yes admitting that what the UK Government have said is correct and that what the Scottish Government continue to say is wrong in law. In the law we have a word for what the SNP are doing. That word is misrepresentation.
http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/what-shall-we-call-it-now/
Naw! They're aw wrong and Eck is reet!
0 -
Why do the Scots even want the pound?
Salmond said it was a millstone around the necks of the Scots.0 -
Not true in last 4 years cpi risen from 114.4 to 128.3 (12.2%)nigel4england said:
You are only considering the public sector.bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
In the real world wages fell off a cliff from 2008, and have slowly worked there way back up so most outside of the previously cosseted public sector are feeling better off than they were.
Average wages over same period up from £449 per week to £478 (6.4%)0 -
That will include the wage freeze and 1% rises in the public sector. As I said the rest of us faced massive wage cuts from 2008 but have now bounced back.bigjohnowls said:
Not true in last 4 years cpi risen from 114.4 to 128.3 (12.2%)nigel4england said:
You are only considering the public sector.bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
In the real world wages fell off a cliff from 2008, and have slowly worked there way back up so most outside of the previously cosseted public sector are feeling better off than they were.
Average wages over same period up from £449 per week to £478 (6.4%)0 -
Pre tax wages ?bigjohnowls said:
Not true in last 4 years cpi risen from 114.4 to 128.3 (12.2%)nigel4england said:
You are only considering the public sector.bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
In the real world wages fell off a cliff from 2008, and have slowly worked there way back up so most outside of the previously cosseted public sector are feeling better off than they were.
Average wages over same period up from £449 per week to £478 (6.4%)
Outside the financial sector wages ?
0 -
Average wages in private sector since May 2010 up by 6.9% ie a real fall of 5.3%
Average wages in "cosseted public sector" up by 5.4% ie a real fall of 6.8%.
Only PB Tories would not already know that it hasn't paid to work in last 4 years.
0 -
Average earnings from ONS Site.TGOHF said:
Pre tax wages ?bigjohnowls said:
Not true in last 4 years cpi risen from 114.4 to 128.3 (12.2%)nigel4england said:
You are only considering the public sector.bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
In the real world wages fell off a cliff from 2008, and have slowly worked there way back up so most outside of the previously cosseted public sector are feeling better off than they were.
Average wages over same period up from £449 per week to £478 (6.4%)
Outside the financial sector wages ?0 -
Fine Socialist attitude.bigjohnowls said:Average wages in private sector since May 2010 up by 6.9% ie a real fall of 5.3%
Average wages in "cosseted public sector" up by 5.4% ie a real fall of 6.8%.
Only PB Tories would not already know that it hasn't paid to work in last 4 years.0 -
Again not true see my post of private sector wages compared to CPInigel4england said:
That will include the wage freeze and 1% rises in the public sector. As I said the rest of us faced massive wage cuts from 2008 but have now bounced back.bigjohnowls said:
Not true in last 4 years cpi risen from 114.4 to 128.3 (12.2%)nigel4england said:
You are only considering the public sector.bigjohnowls said:
Most households better off. GDP per Capita will not even back to 2008 levels by 2015.Sean_F said:
By May next year, most households will likely be better off than in 2010. GDP Per head will be 5-6% higher; lots more people are in work; asset prices have risen and debts fallen.bigjohnowls said:
Unfortunately next years budget cannot redress the fact that most working people will be much worse off compared to 2010. Whereas the top 1% of course are seen to have been given a nice little tax cut.TOPPING said:
I know that for many people economic aggregates are a world away from your, um, their pint of lager and packet of crisps but please be assured that all that funny stuff actually will translate into you being better off.bigjohnowls said:
Your right everyone is now feeling much better off.peter_from_putney said:
Reuters : Surprise jump in UK services PMI heralds continued strong growthTGOHF said:Meanwhile...
#UK Services sector continues to expand sharply in July and PMI hits 8-month high at 59.1 from 57.7
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/05/uk-pmi-services-britain-idUKKBN0G50QI20140805
Terrific news for the British economy (and for the Tory Government).
I think i might vote Tory myself
If you want GO to come over and thrust a fiver into your grateful hand then the wait might be a bit longer (ie budget next year).
I am pretty certain the DPM will tell us GO wanted to be even more generous in that rather politically silly tax cut too
You really are out of touch if you think people are feeling better off compared to 2010. Not even Dave or George will try to claim working peoples wages have kept up with inflation since 2010. Unless of course they only take account of the top 1%
In the real world wages fell off a cliff from 2008, and have slowly worked there way back up so most outside of the previously cosseted public sector are feeling better off than they were.
Average wages over same period up from £449 per week to £478 (6.4%)0 -
Overall levels of employment are far higher than four years ago. Overall household incomes are higher than four years ago. Households' assets are worth more, and their debts less, than four years ago. So most people, not just the top 1% are better off.bigjohnowls said:Average wages in private sector since May 2010 up by 6.9% ie a real fall of 5.3%
Average wages in "cosseted public sector" up by 5.4% ie a real fall of 6.8%.
Only PB Tories would not already know that it hasn't paid to work in last 4 years.
Most PB Tories (ex-Tories in my case) are in work. My own turnover (and I'm not part of the 1%) is up 30% on four years ago.
0 -
Anyone able to show a real increase in wages since May 2010.?
0 -
Surely they want the Euro? Or is it Tuesday?TheScreamingEagles said:Why do the Scots even want the pound?
Salmond said it was a millstone around the necks of the Scots.0 -
Yes; which is ironic given that the court which has accepted this bribe has previously jailed the man Ecclesone is accused of bribing.nigel4england said:Completely off topic:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28656050
I must have read this wrong, as from what I surmise Ecclestone has halted his $44m bribery trial by paying a $100m fee, which in effect seems to be another bribe?0 -
If that is correct then of course we also leave the debt as it is the UK's debt and as you say we have left the UK. I doubt the rUK will want that outcome. You cannot have your cake and eat it.CarlottaVance said:
The pound does not belong to Scotland. The statement “it’s as much Scotland’s currency as it is the rest of the UK’s” is false. The pound is the UK currency. It belongs neither to Scotland nor to England but to the UK. If Scotland votes Yes next month, Scotland will have voted to leave the UK. Leave the UK and you leave the UK’s public institutions, including the UK pound. This has been clear for months and months and months, yet still the Scottish Government are in denial about it. But you no longer have to take my or any other No campaigner’s word for it. Last month Lawyers for Yes wrote on their website that it is “true to say that the public institutions of the UK would become the public institutions of rUK” and that “the Bank of England is a UK body and the pound is the UK’s currency, and as ‘institutions’ of the UK they would stay with the UK”.malcolmg said:
Even fools know that one , HMG lying does not hide the realityCarlottaVance said:
There is a difference between an 'open-minded' and 'empty head'.......malcolmg said:Just received the competing material from HMG and The Scottish Government. HMG one is amateurish and very poor. Keep the pound , lower bills , more public services and so just more lies and dire presentation.
Contrast with a professional one from Scottish Government that is positive , gives options and promotes Scotland and the people, it is no contest.
Did the Scottish Govt one tell you what your currency would be (since the other one told you it wouldn't be the £?)
PS : just for you , it clearly states the published policy which is "We'll keep the pound"
There you have it. Lawyers for Yes admitting that what the UK Government have said is correct and that what the Scottish Government continue to say is wrong in law. In the law we have a word for what the SNP are doing. That word is misrepresentation.
http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/what-shall-we-call-it-now/
Naw! They're aw wrong and Eck is reet!
We can still use the pound as our currency though.0 -
Don't believe you show me the stat that says average household ncomes have risen more than inflation please.Sean_F said:
Overall levels of employment are far higher than four years ago. Overall household incomes are higher than four years ago. Households' assets are worth more, and their debts less, than four years ago. So most people, not just the top 1% are better off.bigjohnowls said:Average wages in private sector since May 2010 up by 6.9% ie a real fall of 5.3%
Average wages in "cosseted public sector" up by 5.4% ie a real fall of 6.8%.
Only PB Tories would not already know that it hasn't paid to work in last 4 years.
0 -
Short term it is sensible , help rump UK out of its difficulties before we launch our own Scottish pound. Alex is a generous man willing to help old friends.TheScreamingEagles said:Why do the Scots even want the pound?
Salmond said it was a millstone around the necks of the Scots.0 -
"Only PB Tories would not already know that it hasn't paid to work in last 4 years."
What on earth does that mean?0
This discussion has been closed.