The key driver of the Brexit vote cannot be dismissed as an embittered aide – politicalbetting.com

FREEDOMINIC DAY!

Cummings says he's going to publish ‘Some basics of how to do regime change’ next week for subscribers only...

People loathe Cummings and plenty enough will therefore give Johnson the benefit of the doubt. The enemy of my enemy etc.

It remains true that Johnson is a nasty piece of work who only thinks of himself. He f***s everyone who knows him in the end, and it's just a question of when, how hard, and how deep. This is just more evidence of that, but not sure it will do much damage in itself.

williamglenn said:

Cummings says he's going to publish ‘Some basics of how to do regime change’ next week for subscribers only...

Ker ching

Every time Cummings speaks there's an expectation in some quarters that it will have a significant effect on the opinion polls. So far, it never has.

StuartDickson said:

The key driver of the Brexit vote can also be dismissed as an embittered aide.

The most telling thing for me is that Johnson put the tosser in position as his chief of staff, and the rest of the cabinet (except Javid) just let him.

It shows appalling judgement by the leading lights of the Tory party and Johnson in particular.

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

Anarchist band Scritti Politti used to live in a squat at 1 Carol Street, Camden Town back in the late 70s / early 80s. Useless fact.

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

NorthLondon is over, maybe.

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

On bad days I agree with you. I wonder if London can recover from Covid (and everything else)

But then you get a sunny day and the parks fill up and the beer gardens sing and there is, still, a distinct and glorious energy, perhaps made bubblier by the toughness of the times. And it is a very contemporary London energy, not like Paris or NYC or LA

When I am not fretting about all the closed restaurants and bars (and they are worrying) I've also noticed that London literally seems younger, after Covid. The average age on the street and in the shops is down about 5 years. The kidz have taken over. I can see why - the old have fled or are hiding, the middle aged are working from home - and hiding - it will be fascinating to see where it goes from here.

Is London Rome in 440AD? Or Paris in 1944?

As others note he can be, the question is presumably should he be.

Some of his claims are clearly serious and believable and others less so (I have a hard time believing Boris is the type to open up so frankly on everything to a man it seems could barely conceal his disrespect and dislike of Boris, as his conversational anecdotes suggest).

Cummings seems to have a style whereby everything is heightened for dramatic effect and importance, which though irritating doesnt itself mean he is wrong, particularly on conclusions, but that very emotion and melodrama he brings to makes it entertaining also makes it easier to dismiss by the government.

Leon said:

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Yes, people aren't daft. They see the figures mushrooming and don't want to catch it. Let someone else be the patsy for Johnson, and keep clear.

Foxy said:

StuartDickson said:

The key driver of the Brexit vote can also be dismissed as an embittered aide.

The most telling thing for me is that Johnson put the tosser in position as his chief of staff, and the rest of the cabinet (except Javid) just let him.

It shows appalling judgement by the leading lights of the Tory party and Johnson in particular.

And he seems to have hated them or held them in disdain, spending his time compiling a dossier to screw them over - and they didn't see that coming?

Andy_JS said:

Every time Cummings speaks there's an expectation in some quarters that it will have a significant effect on the opinion polls. So far, it never has.

Dom's mind only occupies a quarter of his brain?

I thought it would occupy a planet at least.

More Dom;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57880118

Comes across as a bit of an arse tbh

Cummings is an irrelevance.

As evidenced by his stupid job post with "we don't do office politics" he doesn't understand office politics. He also clearly sees himself as the power behind the throne yet he doesn't actually understand how the power behind the throne works.

He has no power except when he is attached to an actual executive. Without being part of a thing he is nothing.

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

Among the 20 or so places that I've lived, Holloway Road was the best, for the "all of humankind" reason that Leon cites. Scruffy, cheerful, so mixed that you give up on trying to place where people come from, and every kind of restaurant and small shop under the sun. I don't know the bits of Camden that you mention though they can't be too far away.

Not totally surprised by the maskiness, similar to what I reported the other day in very posh Godalming and reflecting the same "better safe than sorry" attitude. But others here have seen very different clusters - maybe most people are careful except when there's a good reason not to be, like a really good party? There's a music festival near here next month which friends are organising and I plan to go to - it'll be outdoors and I'm not planning to wear a mask for that, though I certainly do when I go to Sainsbury, as does everyone else round here. Take a small risk for a few drinks and a cuddle? Sure. Take a small risk to buy a litre of milk? Of course not.

Leon said:

But, he is an embittered aide?

I think Boris is in trouble - for the first time I've got quite Borisite friends who are questioning if he's up to it, but Cummings is only a small voice in a wider choir

It all hangs on the Unlockdown. If we exit without a hideous new wave and we dodge further restrictions, all this will be forgotten. A new lockdown, in contrast, would probably be fatal for the PM

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Oh you're back. I said Thursday. That was a sell.

Andy_JS said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

Anarchist band Scritti Politti used to live in a squat at 1 Carol Street, Camden Town back in the late 70s / early 80s. Useless fact.

Nothing useless about that fact at all. I'll tell you a useless fact. There's a strong correlation between life expectancy and being able to sit in the lotus position.

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Leon said:

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Yes, people aren't daft. They see the figures mushrooming and don't want to catch it. Let someone else be the patsy for Johnson, and keep clear.

I chatted with a young waitress in my Highgate lunch-pub yesterday. She was about 22, mask-less, said she hated Boris - and blamed him for the confusion on social distancing

She also said she and all her friends were just gagging to get their second jabs. ASAFP

I was in Camden the other week. It has some charm, but also some edge. Not as sterile as some parts of the Smoke. The complaints bring to mind this classic song on the gentrification of Soho, which is also a very different place to when I lived in London.

https://youtu.be/MZukiRrYROA

SirNorfolkPassmore said:

It's far from useless if you (a) want to send Scritti Politti a Christmas card; and (b) have access to a functional time machine.

Indeed, the very fact it's "Carol Street" only makes condition (a) more likely to be fulfilled.

...

kle4 said:

Foxy said:

StuartDickson said:

The key driver of the Brexit vote can also be dismissed as an embittered aide.

The most telling thing for me is that Johnson put the tosser in position as his chief of staff, and the rest of the cabinet (except Javid) just let him.

It shows appalling judgement by the leading lights of the Tory party and Johnson in particular.

And he seems to have hated them or held them in disdain, spending his time compiling a dossier to screw them over - and they didn't see that coming?

"Them"?
Will Michael Gove keep as quiet this time as he did when Dominic Cummings gave evidence to the Select Committee?

Scott_xP said:

SirNorfolkPassmore said:

It's far from useless if you (a) want to send Scritti Politti a Christmas card; and (b) have access to a functional time machine.

Indeed, the very fact it's "Carol Street" only makes condition (a) more likely to be fulfilled.

...

And did one ever bother?

Did they balls. Bunch of lazy bastards, the samurai.

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Leon said:

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Yes, people aren't daft. They see the figures mushrooming and don't want to catch it. Let someone else be the patsy for Johnson, and keep clear.

I chatted with a young waitress in my Highgate lunch-pub yesterday. She was about 22, mask-less, said she hated Boris - and blamed him for the confusion on social distancing

She also said she and all her friends were just gagging to get their second jabs. ASAFP

Good to see you back. I had heard you were no longer to return, which would have been a shame.

Foxy said:

StuartDickson said:

The key driver of the Brexit vote can also be dismissed as an embittered aide.

The most telling thing for me is that Johnson put the tosser in position as his chief of staff, and the rest of the cabinet (except Javid) just let him.

It shows appalling judgement by the leading lights of the Tory party and Johnson in particular.

So reliant on an aide that he couldn't sack him. Then so scared of his girlfriend that he had to. This passes for PM material these days.

Andy_JS said:

"Dominic Cummings: I discussed ousting PM after 2019 election landslide"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57880118

I didn't realise Cummings was an elected politician in a position to discuss deposing someone who had just won a big election victory.

Delusions of grandeur:

Mr Cummings said he and his allies began to fear for their positions by January 2020 and started discussing Mr Johnson's future.

"[People] were already saying, 'By the summer, either we'll all have gone from here or we'll be in the process of trying to get rid of [Mr Johnson] and get someone else in as prime minister'," he said.

With great respect to the header I just think he is one who excites the political bubble, including Laura of the BBC, but to many others he is the one who went to Barnard Castle and lost all his credibility over his actions on that day

He polls way lower than Boris, and shows all the signs of a narcissist with only he and his views matter

Furthermore, he has no loyalty whatsoever, and just who would want to employ him again, or trust him with anything ever.

And I notice 71 % agree with Boris re covid passports for clubs

Maybe Boris is still in tune with the public, but it is quite inexplicable to be honest

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

On bad days I agree with you. I wonder if London can recover from Covid (and everything else)

But then you get a sunny day and the parks fill up and the beer gardens sing and there is, still, a distinct and glorious energy, perhaps made bubblier by the toughness of the times. And it is a very contemporary London energy, not like Paris or NYC or LA

When I am not fretting about all the closed restaurants and bars (and they are worrying) I've also noticed that London literally seems younger, after Covid. The average age on the street and in the shops is down about 5 years. The kidz have taken over. I can see why - the old have fled or are hiding, the middle aged are working from home - and hiding - it will be fascinating to see where it goes from here.

Is London Rome in 440AD? Or Paris in 1944?

A bunch of old geezers on a nerdy website saying it was better in our day doesn't really cut it as evidence of London's decline. Do we have any twentysomething Londoners to confirm?

A difficulty for the comparison is the change in leisure from experiencing to documenting. When I was growing up we used to be amazed that Japanese tourists would spend their whole holiday taking photos to document something rather than experience and enjoy it in real time. For todays young, it is not just holidays where that is the case but their whole life. That must completely change the look, feel and atmosphere of the night-time venues they visit, and make the middle aged and older a bit confused as to why they want it like this.

SirNorfolkPassmore said:

Scott_xP said:

SirNorfolkPassmore said:

It's far from useless if you (a) want to send Scritti Politti a Christmas card; and (b) have access to a functional time machine.

Indeed, the very fact it's "Carol Street" only makes condition (a) more likely to be fulfilled.

...

And did one ever bother?

Did they balls. Bunch of lazy bastards, the samurai.

Sounds possible - someone of that class may have sent one as an official communication to the President.

.

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Leon said:

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Yes, people aren't daft. They see the figures mushrooming and don't want to catch it. Let someone else be the patsy for Johnson, and keep clear.

I chatted with a young waitress in my Highgate lunch-pub yesterday. She was about 22, mask-less, said she hated Boris - and blamed him for the confusion on social distancing

She also said she and all her friends were just gagging to get their second jabs. ASAFP

Fortunately for Boris, aged 22, she doesn't vote, so a completely irrelevant commentary.

More importantly, what do London Cabbies from Tirana think?

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Leon said:

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Yes, people aren't daft. They see the figures mushrooming and don't want to catch it. Let someone else be the patsy for Johnson, and keep clear.

I chatted with a young waitress in my Highgate lunch-pub yesterday. She was about 22, mask-less, said she hated Boris - and blamed him for the confusion on social distancing

She also said she and all her friends were just gagging to get their second jabs. ASAFP

Good to see you back. I had heard you were no longer to return, which would have been a shame.

That's kind of you, especially as I have been really quite rude to you!

Anyway. I said my sorrys and I meant 'em

Now I am off for a walk in the pending thunderstorm. Later

Stuartinromford said:

kle4 said:

Foxy said:

StuartDickson said:

The key driver of the Brexit vote can also be dismissed as an embittered aide.

The most telling thing for me is that Johnson put the tosser in position as his chief of staff, and the rest of the cabinet (except Javid) just let him.

It shows appalling judgement by the leading lights of the Tory party and Johnson in particular.

And he seems to have hated them or held them in disdain, spending his time compiling a dossier to screw them over - and they didn't see that coming?

Easy.

Dom wanted the power and not the glory.

Boris wanted the glory and was too lazy to have any plans for what to do with the power.

It was almost a match made in heaven.

Unfortunately, and changing metaphor, Frankenstein discovered that, having got his monster into Downing Street, the monster started having different ideas about how to behave. That wasn't the Doctor's plan at all.

No wonder he's miffed.

Nailed it

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

On bad days I agree with you. I wonder if London can recover from Covid (and everything else)

But then you get a sunny day and the parks fill up and the beer gardens sing and there is, still, a distinct and glorious energy, perhaps made bubblier by the toughness of the times. And it is a very contemporary London energy, not like Paris or NYC or LA

When I am not fretting about all the closed restaurants and bars (and they are worrying) I've also noticed that London literally seems younger, after Covid. The average age on the street and in the shops is down about 5 years. The kidz have taken over. I can see why - the old have fled or are hiding, the middle aged are working from home - and hiding - it will be fascinating to see where it goes from here.

Is London Rome in 440AD? Or Paris in 1944?

I think part of the issue is that the next generation coming up is so much more sterile than mine was. I was talking to a guy selling us some mandy pre-lockdown and he said that his walk ups are predominantly over 30 and he struggles to get under 30s to buy any kind of party drugs because they're all too concerned with health and other such inanities. I expect after COVID it will just get worse.

Who in the next generation is going to do a line of charlie and become a complete c*** to their mates and everyone around them? Those experiences just won't happen now but it's part of growing up and the next generation is just completely missing out because they've become conditioned by social media and influencers that being anything than 100% straight up will be a disaster.

Even outside of that stuff I just think London is becoming a shadow of it's former self and I say that as someone who has just spent a 7 figure number buying a house here.

Foxy said:

Interesting swing of opinion by Labour Members. Blair now more popular than Corbyn...

Kinnock up from net 27 to 56! Not heard from him in years, so assume this is almost wholly a change in membership than a change in opinion of him? Or is Corbyn so toxic relatively everyone else is better now?

noneoftheabove said:

Foxy said:

Interesting swing of opinion by Labour Members. Blair now more popular than Corbyn...

Kinnock up from net 27 to 56! Not heard from him in years, so assume this is almost wholly a change in membership than a change in opinion of him? Or is Corbyn so toxic relatively everyone else is better now?

Maybe some of the dullards are beginning to understand that he was responsible for Brexit and for putting the Labour Party in a position where it is unlikely to achieve power for another decade or so.

Leon said:

But, he is an embittered aide?

I think Boris is in trouble - for the first time I've got quite Borisite friends who are questioning if he's up to it, but Cummings is only a small voice in a wider choir

It all hangs on the Unlockdown. If we exit without a hideous new wave and we dodge further restrictions, all this will be forgotten. A new lockdown, in contrast, would probably be fatal for the PM

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Boris is in trouble but not from Cummings. He is is trouble because he always is. Boris is always one zeitgeist shift away from oblivion, since there is nothing which would survive demolition of his persona, for example if those who laugh with him started to laugh at him. But the critical thing to note is that, to general astonishment, it hasn't happened yet, even though it should, could, might, have done 100 times.

It doesn't however 'all hang on the unlockdown' or any other diagnosable piece of futurology. No-one has a clue what would destroy him politically. For myself I am sure it isn't Cummings. It is likely that something will but not certain. If I understand him at all (who does?) he is determined to go in his time and no-one else's; and determined to stay as PM for a substantial time. A 2023 win + 4 years would give him 8 years and counting, which puts him close to the top tier, up with Asquith and Churchill, and the possibility of more.

Anyone who is sure this is all impossible should get down to their bookmaker. I would not bet much on him not being PM in 2027. Nor would I put the farm on there not being an election as early as 2022.

Leon said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

Leon said:

Ironically, the very timid way we have embraced our freedoms (judging by the pubs of Highgate and the shops of Camden) means we might avoid a hideous surge in cases and Boris will be fine- even though the impact on the economy will surely be awful, if this timorousness continues

Yes, people aren't daft. They see the figures mushrooming and don't want to catch it. Let someone else be the patsy for Johnson, and keep clear.

I chatted with a young waitress in my Highgate lunch-pub yesterday. She was about 22, mask-less, said she hated Boris - and blamed him for the confusion on social distancing

She also said she and all her friends were just gagging to get their second jabs. ASAFP

Good to see you back. I had heard you were no longer to return, which would have been a shame.

That's kind of you, especially as I have been really quite rude to you!

Anyway. I said my sorrys and I meant 'em

Now I am off for a walk in the pending thunderstorm. Later

I would be most disappointed if you stopped being rude to me, because I feel I have been far ruder to you. Anyway, before we get to soft, why don't you just fuck off?!

Gnud said:

kle4 said:

Foxy said:

StuartDickson said:

The key driver of the Brexit vote can also be dismissed as an embittered aide.

The most telling thing for me is that Johnson put the tosser in position as his chief of staff, and the rest of the cabinet (except Javid) just let him.

It shows appalling judgement by the leading lights of the Tory party and Johnson in particular.

And he seems to have hated them or held them in disdain, spending his time compiling a dossier to screw them over - and they didn't see that coming?

If someone decides they have had enough and decides to reveal a Whatsapp message or email that finishes Dom off, I will absolutely piss myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JE4GYS63ak#t=69s

But what are they realistically going to reveal that doesn't also make the other person in the conversation look awful?

Cummings' super power is that he doesn't really have a reputation to destroy.

noneoftheabove said:

Foxy said:

Interesting swing of opinion by Labour Members. Blair now more popular than Corbyn...

Kinnock up from net 27 to 56! Not heard from him in years, so assume this is almost wholly a change in membership than a change in opinion of him? Or is Corbyn so toxic relatively everyone else is better now?

They've been consuming Euro-Pork.

Though not selling it to China. Probably.

According to the Waily Mail, Mr & Mrs have had around £10m.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192894/Revealed-How-Kinnocks-enjoyed-astonishing-10m-ride-EU-gravy-train.html

Not bad for a busted lightbulb

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

contrarian said:

Judging by the polls, 71% of my fellow citizens are happy to turn me into a second class citizen with vaxx passports. No clubs (as if), pubs, theatres or maybe even work for me come the autumn.

I think my last hope is the economy. Can the Johnson regime get Britain up to anything like full speed under this settlement?

We shall see.

Some would argue you have chosen to be a second class citizen. If one choses not to have internet connectivity and/or a smartphone one denies oneself services. This is not the majority denying the person. It is a simple self-imposed refusal to adapt to the times.

Fuck right off right now....when did having a smart phone suddenly become a requisite for being a full citizen. You have one because it suits you. Why the fuck should I have to have one because it suits the governement. I neither need nor want one.

Calm down! I was simply presenting a point of view that I am not sure I agree with, but it has some rationality to it. I am somewhat amused that anti-vaxxers think they have been injected with monitoring devices but still use social media and smartphones. The tech giants don't need to inject you with a device, you mainly choose to carry one on your person everyday and leave your IP address every time you visit an internet site to read the latest conspiracy theory website, lol.

a) I am not an antivaxxer
b) I have a mobile phone though not a smart phone purely because I recieve less calls on it than I do a landline of the nuisance nature
c) I dont use social media
d) for most sites I use tor
e) I dont carry my phone with me when i go out
f) I dont subscribe to any conspiracy theories. Not wanting the uk to slowly turn into china where we are tracked for everything is not a conspiracy theory. Vaxports are the first step on the road

Surely vaxports are taking us nearer to Germany, France or Austria where they have ID cards rather than full on China surveillance.

The issue with ID cards was never the card itself it was the massive database that Labour planned to build against it.

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

On bad days I agree with you. I wonder if London can recover from Covid (and everything else)

But then you get a sunny day and the parks fill up and the beer gardens sing and there is, still, a distinct and glorious energy, perhaps made bubblier by the toughness of the times. And it is a very contemporary London energy, not like Paris or NYC or LA

When I am not fretting about all the closed restaurants and bars (and they are worrying) I've also noticed that London literally seems younger, after Covid. The average age on the street and in the shops is down about 5 years. The kidz have taken over. I can see why - the old have fled or are hiding, the middle aged are working from home - and hiding - it will be fascinating to see where it goes from here.

Is London Rome in 440AD? Or Paris in 1944?

I think part of the issue is that the next generation coming up is so much more sterile than mine was. I was talking to a guy selling us some mandy pre-lockdown and he said that his walk ups are predominantly over 30 and he struggles to get under 30s to buy any kind of party drugs because they're all too concerned with health and other such inanities. I expect after COVID it will just get worse.

Who in the next generation is going to do a line of charlie and become a complete c*** to their mates and everyone around them? Those experiences just won't happen now but it's part of growing up and the next generation is just completely missing out because they've become conditioned by social media and influencers that being anything than 100% straight up will be a disaster.

Even outside of that stuff I just think London is becoming a shadow of it's former self and I say that as someone who has just spent a 7 figure number buying a house here.

Some truth in that

The Boris-hating waitress in my Highgate pub said she hated Boris because "my Mum does". I put it to her that she should be rebellious, at her age, not just following her Mum's opinions and she looked utterly bewildered at this concept and she said "oh, No, my Mum would kill me"

The under 30s are a notably conformative and censorious bunch, especially by the standards of my generation, which was outrageously misbehaved. And still is, at times. Ahem

But then, my cohort had it so much easier. Student GRANTS, cheaper property, lad magazines, sex everywhere, exciting new drugs, a permissive society, no apocalyptic worries about climate change and all that, and, maybe most importantly, no social media to cancel us (and Jeez, we would have been cancelled a thousand times a year for some of the shit we did)

So I also have sympathies for the young. They are forced to be dull, it's not their choice. But they ARE rather dull

And now I am definitely walking. A bientot

noneoftheabove said:

Foxy said:

Interesting swing of opinion by Labour Members. Blair now more popular than Corbyn...

Kinnock up from net 27 to 56! Not heard from him in years, so assume this is almost wholly a change in membership than a change in opinion of him? Or is Corbyn so toxic relatively everyone else is better now?

I guess the story of Kinnock's struggle of trying to make Labour electable again after a catastrophic defeat with a hard left programme has become more relatable. Starmer supporters presumably have a bit of a flavour of it being a hell of a lot less easy than it sounds.

I know the comparator poll was also done post-2019 election, but it was before the Labour Party had moved through the stages of grief. I think Corbyn's decline is also partly due to an acceptance by many members of the fact and scale of the loss, which hadn't really registered by January 2020, as well as changes in the composition of the membership.

Pagan2 said:

kinabalu said:

Pagan2 said:

kinabalu said:

Andy_JS said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Leon said:

I am now able to report from the Covid Freedom Day Front Line AKA the gastropubs of Highgate

Verdict: a disappointing lack of jubilation, or, indeed, Freedom. You weren't allowed to order at the bar, you had to check in at the door, the staff were mostly wearing masks, it was table service only

Almost nothing has changed

Indeed I've just been out shopping in Camden and if anything there seem to be MORE masks, people look even more nervous. for the first time ever I saw someone wearing the full Covid monty: mask, visor and disposable blue nitrile gloves WHILE WALKING DOWN THE STREET

Have we terrified humanity - or at least the British part of it - into some ridiculous, unnecessary dystopia?

Maybe you could do another report from a working-class area to see if there any differences. Basildon or Harlow for example.

Camden - down by the Tube - really isn't posh in any sense. It is all of humankind, rich, poor, middling, homeless, trustafarian, Muslim, atheist, Goth, emo, Gen X Gen Z Gen Lambda, 50-something flint knappers buying laksa ingredients

This is a big reason I am attached to it, I like the grittiness and the melee (tho I am glad I live at the slightly posher end, we are all human)

So Camden is probably quite representative - at least of London as a whole (and Highgate felt very similar). Dunno about the UK

I used to agree about Camden. Then the Monarch closed down, just the latest "gritty" late night bar to close and be replaced with yet another wanky cocktail bar. It's become as sterile as the places it used to mock. Sadly there aren't many places left in London that capture the essence of what the city used to be, maybe the Queen's Crescent area of Kentish Town and a few bits of Archway still have some of the magic but London is over.

Anarchist band Scritti Politti used to live in a squat at 1 Carol Street, Camden Town back in the late 70s / early 80s. Useless fact.

Nothing useless about that fact at all. I'll tell you a useless fact. There's a strong correlation between life expectancy and being able to sit in the lotus position.

As in if you desire to sit in the lotus position you are probably tired off life?

From that, I'm sensing you can't. A great pity. There are downsides but the benefits outweigh them easily.

I wouldn't know because never bothered trying or wanted to try....why the hell would I.....hey here is an idea sit in a totally unnatural and uncomfortable position because....why?

Because it's great for both body and spirit. If you persevere it ends up feeling completely natural, so no problem there. And it does add years to life. Not that I should talk, I can't manage it either. If I'd started doing it whilst young and kept it up - just a few minutes a day - I'd be able to do it now, but I didn't, so I can't. It's too late for me, sadly, but perhaps for you it isn't.

eek said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

contrarian said:

Judging by the polls, 71% of my fellow citizens are happy to turn me into a second class citizen with vaxx passports. No clubs (as if), pubs, theatres or maybe even work for me come the autumn.

I think my last hope is the economy. Can the Johnson regime get Britain up to anything like full speed under this settlement?

We shall see.

Some would argue you have chosen to be a second class citizen. If one choses not to have internet connectivity and/or a smartphone one denies oneself services. This is not the majority denying the person. It is a simple self-imposed refusal to adapt to the times.

Fuck right off right now....when did having a smart phone suddenly become a requisite for being a full citizen. You have one because it suits you. Why the fuck should I have to have one because it suits the governement. I neither need nor want one.

Calm down! I was simply presenting a point of view that I am not sure I agree with, but it has some rationality to it. I am somewhat amused that anti-vaxxers think they have been injected with monitoring devices but still use social media and smartphones. The tech giants don't need to inject you with a device, you mainly choose to carry one on your person everyday and leave your IP address every time you visit an internet site to read the latest conspiracy theory website, lol.

a) I am not an antivaxxer
b) I have a mobile phone though not a smart phone purely because I recieve less calls on it than I do a landline of the nuisance nature
c) I dont use social media
d) for most sites I use tor
e) I dont carry my phone with me when i go out
f) I dont subscribe to any conspiracy theories. Not wanting the uk to slowly turn into china where we are tracked for everything is not a conspiracy theory. Vaxports are the first step on the road

Surely vaxports are taking us nearer to Germany, France or Austria where they have ID cards rather than full on China surveillance.

The issue with ID cards was never the card itself it was the massive database that Labour planned to build against it.

vaxports are far worse than id cards, I don't necessarily have an objection to id cards on two proviso's

1) they can't be demanded on whim by any jumped up jobsworth
2) while you may need to show them you arent recorded.

Sadly vaxports fail certainly on the second as they will bear the responsibility to scan in and out giving the government a clear view on where you go and how long you were there.

Now dont get me wrong I dont suspect the current tory government would abuse it, nor do I suspect the current labour shadow government would either...a government in 20 or 30 years time with a health nazi in charge...not so much. I know I come across as strident but in my view once you cross the rubicon of too much it is too late and better to stop the journey before it begins

Foxy said:

Interesting swing of opinion by Labour Members. Blair now more popular than Corbyn...

So it is no longer Corbyn's party but Brown and Ed Miliband's party again, still not the party of Blair though, the only Labour winner this century

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

contrarian said:

Judging by the polls, 71% of my fellow citizens are happy to turn me into a second class citizen with vaxx passports. No clubs (as if), pubs, theatres or maybe even work for me come the autumn.

I think my last hope is the economy. Can the Johnson regime get Britain up to anything like full speed under this settlement?

We shall see.

Some would argue you have chosen to be a second class citizen. If one choses not to have internet connectivity and/or a smartphone one denies oneself services. This is not the majority denying the person. It is a simple self-imposed refusal to adapt to the times.

Fuck right off right now....when did having a smart phone suddenly become a requisite for being a full citizen. You have one because it suits you. Why the fuck should I have to have one because it suits the governement. I neither need nor want one.

Calm down! I was simply presenting a point of view that I am not sure I agree with, but it has some rationality to it. I am somewhat amused that anti-vaxxers think they have been injected with monitoring devices but still use social media and smartphones. The tech giants don't need to inject you with a device, you mainly choose to carry one on your person everyday and leave your IP address every time you visit an internet site to read the latest conspiracy theory website, lol.

a) I am not an antivaxxer
b) I have a mobile phone though not a smart phone purely because I recieve less calls on it than I do a landline of the nuisance nature
c) I dont use social media
d) for most sites I use tor
e) I dont carry my phone with me when i go out
f) I dont subscribe to any conspiracy theories. Not wanting the uk to slowly turn into china where we are tracked for everything is not a conspiracy theory. Vaxports are the first step on the road

While I share your concern about the creeping powers of government I think you are indulging in hyperbole. We are a long long way from being anything close to the surveillance society that is China. Showing proof of vaccination does not need to be that onerous. Personally, on balance, I prefer to have the freedom to know I can go to an event where there is limited chance of me catching Covid, even if the odds are I won't be hospitalised.

You having the freedom to refuse the vaccine and still go to the theatre or a rock concert is not a freedom worth literally dying in a ditch/hospital bed for. Sorry, but that is the way it is. If you want to be a conscientious objector in the middle of a national crisis and refuse to play your part you shouldn't bleat about the fact others don't support you.

Pagan2 said:

eek said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

contrarian said:

Judging by the polls, 71% of my fellow citizens are happy to turn me into a second class citizen with vaxx passports. No clubs (as if), pubs, theatres or maybe even work for me come the autumn.

I think my last hope is the economy. Can the Johnson regime get Britain up to anything like full speed under this settlement?

We shall see.

Some would argue you have chosen to be a second class citizen. If one choses not to have internet connectivity and/or a smartphone one denies oneself services. This is not the majority denying the person. It is a simple self-imposed refusal to adapt to the times.

Fuck right off right now....when did having a smart phone suddenly become a requisite for being a full citizen. You have one because it suits you. Why the fuck should I have to have one because it suits the governement. I neither need nor want one.

Calm down! I was simply presenting a point of view that I am not sure I agree with, but it has some rationality to it. I am somewhat amused that anti-vaxxers think they have been injected with monitoring devices but still use social media and smartphones. The tech giants don't need to inject you with a device, you mainly choose to carry one on your person everyday and leave your IP address every time you visit an internet site to read the latest conspiracy theory website, lol.

a) I am not an antivaxxer
b) I have a mobile phone though not a smart phone purely because I recieve less calls on it than I do a landline of the nuisance nature
c) I dont use social media
d) for most sites I use tor
e) I dont carry my phone with me when i go out
f) I dont subscribe to any conspiracy theories. Not wanting the uk to slowly turn into china where we are tracked for everything is not a conspiracy theory. Vaxports are the first step on the road

Surely vaxports are taking us nearer to Germany, France or Austria where they have ID cards rather than full on China surveillance.

The issue with ID cards was never the card itself it was the massive database that Labour planned to build against it.

vaxports are far worse than id cards, I don't necessarily have an objection to id cards on two proviso's

1) they can't be demanded on whim by any jumped up jobsworth
2) while you may need to show them you arent recorded.

Sadly vaxports fail certainly on the second as they will bear the responsibility to scan in and out giving the government a clear view on where you go and how long you were there.

Now dont get me wrong I dont suspect the current tory government would abuse it, nor do I suspect the current labour shadow government would either...a government in 20 or 30 years time with a health nazi in charge...not so much. I know I come across as strident but in my view once you cross the rubicon of too much it is too late and better to stop the journey before it begins

So you worry is that you will need to register to enter premises in the exact same why you currently have to do when you use the NHS app.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Pagan2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

contrarian said:

Judging by the polls, 71% of my fellow citizens are happy to turn me into a second class citizen with vaxx passports. No clubs (as if), pubs, theatres or maybe even work for me come the autumn.

I think my last hope is the economy. Can the Johnson regime get Britain up to anything like full speed under this settlement?

We shall see.

Some would argue you have chosen to be a second class citizen. If one choses not to have internet connectivity and/or a smartphone one denies oneself services. This is not the majority denying the person. It is a simple self-imposed refusal to adapt to the times.

Fuck right off right now....when did having a smart phone suddenly become a requisite for being a full citizen. You have one because it suits you. Why the fuck should I have to have one because it suits the governement. I neither need nor want one.

Calm down! I was simply presenting a point of view that I am not sure I agree with, but it has some rationality to it. I am somewhat amused that anti-vaxxers think they have been injected with monitoring devices but still use social media and smartphones. The tech giants don't need to inject you with a device, you mainly choose to carry one on your person everyday and leave your IP address every time you visit an internet site to read the latest conspiracy theory website, lol.

a) I am not an antivaxxer
b) I have a mobile phone though not a smart phone purely because I recieve less calls on it than I do a landline of the nuisance nature
c) I dont use social media
d) for most sites I use tor
e) I dont carry my phone with me when i go out
f) I dont subscribe to any conspiracy theories. Not wanting the uk to slowly turn into china where we are tracked for everything is not a conspiracy theory. Vaxports are the first step on the road

While I share your concern about the creeping powers of government I think you are indulging in hyperbole. We are a long long way from being anything close to the surveillance society that is China. Showing proof of vaccination does not need to be that onerous. Personally, on balance, I prefer to have the freedom to know I can go to an event where there is limited chance of me catching Covid, even if the odds are I won't be hospitalised.

You having the freedom to refuse the vaccine and still go to the theatre or a rock concert is not a freedom worth literally dying in a ditch/hospital bed for. Sorry, but that is the way it is. If you want to be a conscientious objector in the middle of a national crisis and refuse to play your part you shouldn't bleat about the fact others don't support you.

You claim hyperbole but China didnt suddenly become that way, it was a series of baby steps and each time people like you said "don't be so hyperbolic". We know civil servants want us all tracked and ided for everything we do and say. That has been obvious for years its why the id card keeps coming back, its why the original track and trace app had a huge database behind it. It is why every home office minister keeps coming out with the same bull no matter what party

alex_ said:

Leon said:

contrarian said:

Judging by the polls, 71% of my fellow citizens are happy to turn me into a second class citizen with vaxx passports. No clubs (as if), pubs, theatres or maybe even work for me come the autumn.

I think my last hope is the economy. Can the Johnson regime get Britain up to anything like full speed under this settlement?

We shall see.

I'm in favour of vaccine passports. Have been all along, and said so on here, throughout. Am I "happy" about this? Of course not. Vaxports are an ugly necessity, in a time of trouble, that is all. Like blackouts during the Blitz.

If we want to save the economy from still further, maybe irreversible damage, we need to give people confidence to go out and shop, drink, eat, watch plays, movies, bands, and so on. Vaxports will do that.

As soon as the Covid crisis is over, we ditch them, the same way we ended the blackout as soon as the war was obviously finished

"on 30 April 1945, the day Hitler committed suicide, Big Ben was lit up: 5 years and 123 days after the Blackout was first imposed"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackout_(wartime)

I continue to have trouble understanding the argument that vaccinated people require vaxports to have confidence to go out and socialise etc. If they don’t understand that their protection comes from the vaccine, not from reduced exposure to unvaccinated people, then I don’t see them going out much anyway.

If anything, pushing for vaxports logically undermines confidence in vaccines.

But the vaccine doesn't stop you getting the virus it just means that the consequences of getting the virus is less severe symptoms and a vastly reduced risk of ending up in hospital. Vaccination also seems to reduce the period of time some is infectious.

So I can see why, if you are risk adverse you would only want to visit venues that insist on a vaxport.