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Whatever else BoJo might have done he’s failed to convince many on Brexit – politicalbetting.com

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  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Sajid Javid delays removal of test and trace obligation to self isolation until August 16, a long time into school summer holidays.

    So more than a month to go of being pinged and having to stay at home

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1412376163733884932

    Summer holiday is in three weeks, so it won't be as disruptive.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,792

    I support the democratic vote
    It is fine to accept a democratic vote, but to do a complete volte face and support it? What if there were a vote to kill all the first born, or seriously, something genuinely awful? Do you say "oh its the willothepeople, and must support the leader". FFS, Big G, therein lies the path to the Chinese system!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,079

    Who arranged the exchange to swap you for williamglenn?
    Philip - I can see you posting that exact same sentence in a year or two as Boris and Priti continue to tighten the authoritarian screw and Ed Davey campaigns vehemently against it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    edited July 2021
    eek said:

    I'm going to regret posting this tweet but

    https://twitter.com/gideonrachman/status/1412367708939862023

    Gideon Rachman
    @gideonrachman
    Amazing stat in this @sarahoconnor_ piece. The government thought there were 370,000 Rumanians in Britain; 918,000 have applied for settled status. https://ft.com/content/1c489fb7-2840-4810-b3e6-a036803edf5c via
    @financialtimes

    This is amazing stuff.

    I welcome it, but it raises all sorts of questions, and as yet I’ve seen no answers.

    One wonders about government figures.
    For a long time I read that there were an estimated 20,000 NZers here which seemed like a gross underestimate.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738
    IshmaelZ said:

    Denmark.
    I suspect everyone in England will be supporting the winner of tomorrow's semi-final in the final. Christian Eriksen's story has made sure of that.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,592
    eek said:

    I'm going to regret posting this tweet but

    https://twitter.com/gideonrachman/status/1412367708939862023

    Gideon Rachman
    @gideonrachman
    Amazing stat in this @sarahoconnor_ piece. The government thought there were 370,000 Rumanians in Britain; 918,000 have applied for settled status. https://ft.com/content/1c489fb7-2840-4810-b3e6-a036803edf5c via
    @financialtimes

    It was going to 30k of course, and when Farage said 300k he was a total clown.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Sajid Javid delays removal of test and trace obligation to self isolation until August 16, a long time into school summer holidays.

    So more than a month to go of being pinged and having to stay at home

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1412376163733884932

    So they're making that a Step 5 it seems? Seems logical to me, though I think I'll be tempted to delete the app on the 19th.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The remainer's attitude is turning into the longest sulk in history.

    Britain's democracy is far from perfect, but its good enough that if the electorate really wanted brexit stopped, it would have been.

    Similarly, we are going back to freedom because that is what people want. Its not what the commentariat want. Or the opposition. But then these days their wishes and those of much of the electorate rarely coincide.
    I thought the government was never going to loosen its grip on us and it was embarrassingly naive to think it would?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Sajid Javid delays removal of test and trace obligation to self isolation until August 16, a long time into school summer holidays.

    So more than a month to go of being pinged and having to stay at home

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1412376163733884932

    Coincides with when the end of the vaccine programme is expected for all over 18s. I think Javid is being smart to avoid claims of intergenerational unfairness that younger people who were deprioritised for vaccines for the good of the country are now being treated unfairly with isolation orders as many haven't had their chance to be double jabbed.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Barnesian said:

    Philip - I can see you posting that exact same sentence in a year or two as Boris and Priti continue to tighten the authoritarian screw and Ed Davey campaigns vehemently against it.
    I would like nothing more than to see Ed Davey campaigning against authoritarianism.

    Let me know if he starts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,733
    Dura_Ace said:
    While good news, in terms of vehicle manufacturing, the investment is peanuts (and the UK govt. seems to providing at least 20% of the money).
    ...Stellantis has held discussions with the UK government over options for its Cheshire factory and the company has secured UK government financial support understood to be in the tens of millions of pounds.
    The £100m is the total amount of investment, and includes the UK government support...


    Note Stellantis are building two large battery plants on the continent, with a third planned. None here.

    Nissan is still the only committed investment of any size for electric vehicles, and even that isn't massive.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,508

    Is it just me, or spelling it "Rumanian" gives it a 1908, Times of London feel?
    Either is acceptable.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810

    The remainer's attitude is turning into the longest sulk in history.

    Britain's democracy is far from perfect, but its good enough that if the electorate really wanted brexit stopped, it would have been.

    Similarly, we are going back to freedom because that is what people want. Its not what the commentariat want. Or the opposition. But then these days their wishes and those of much of the electorate rarely coincide.
    So the Medical Deep State and its enabling cabal of freedom-hating Marxist scientists have crumbled in the face of ... of what?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,273
    eek said:

    I suspect everyone in England will be supporting the winner of tomorrow's semi-final in the final. Christian Eriksen's story has made sure of that.
    Italy have played some great football, as good as I can remember in a major tournament this century at least, so would have my support if England don't make it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,508
    Roger said:

    Indeed and Rejoin has just begun. If the demographics are as stated and the old continue to die before the young it shouldn't take long
    But the young get wiser as they get older.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    RobD said:

    Government modelling was crap back in the early 2000s, too.

    The forecasts indicate that net immigration from the AC-10 to the UK after the current
    enlargement of the EU will be relatively small, at between 5,000 and 13,000 immigrants per year
    up to 2010.
    (although they do caveat this, this is the central prediction).

    https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/14332/1/14332.pdf
    The vast, vast majority of those Rumanians will be a fantastic asset to our country, along with all the other eastern Europeans who have come here to make a life.

    If it was me, I'd set up a trestle table in Red Square to see if we can get some of the best Russians too. Amazing people, badly led. And it would annoy the sh8te out of Putin.

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,792

    I feel sorry for you, because you're just embarrassing yourself now.

    You're in denial of that which everyone sane and honest can see: The EU is about Ever Closer Union. It is the very first line, very first principle of the project. You wish to deny that the French and Germans are seeking a political union while they make no secret of the fact that is what they want. Macron is up front, open and honest about his desire to see more EU integration so why do you hate that or deny that? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/15/emmanuel-macron-sets-out-10-year-vision-for-eu-with-call-for-more-integration

    That you are in denial just makes you look silly and petulant, not wise. It seems that you are the one who hates what the EU really is so you're trying to deny it and turn it into something it isn't. I don't hate the EU - I wish them well. If the French and Germans want a political union and integrated defence policies etc as Macron is calling for and as they've been building for the better part of three quarters of a century now then good luck to them. It is the logical end point of a single currency and unlike you it seems I wish them well. I just wish them well as our neighbours instead of trying to bring their project down from the inside like you seem to want.
    Haha, psychological projection writ large! You, Philip, embarrass yourself with every post. Do you actually have any experience of anything that you pontificate about?

    A 24/7 keyboard warrior accuses someone else of embarrassing themselves! LOL! You know jackshit about the EU and pretty much everything else you write on here. Do something useful, learn a trade, get a job, but please stop writing shit on here every day!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849

    Who arranged the exchange to swap you for williamglenn?
    Layla Moran obviously! :D
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,553
    kinabalu said:

    So the Medical Deep State and its enabling cabal of freedom-hating Marxist scientists have crumbled in the face of ... of what?
    Hancock's Todger.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,821

    This is amazing stuff.

    I welcome it, but it raises all sorts of questions, and as yet I’ve seen no answers.

    One wonders about government figures.
    For a long time I read that there were an estimated 20,000 NZers here which seemed like a gross underestimate.
    Yes, I remember seeing suggestions that the population of the UK was about 10% bigger than official figures. This seemed far fetched at the time.

    900,000 Romanians is about 4% of the Romanian population. Imagine that - 4% of the Romanian population is here!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,079

    So they're making that a Step 5 it seems? Seems logical to me, though I think I'll be tempted to delete the app on the 19th.
    Me too.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,273

    This is amazing stuff.

    I welcome it, but it raises all sorts of questions, and as yet I’ve seen no answers.

    One wonders about government figures.
    For a long time I read that there were an estimated 20,000 NZers here which seemed like a gross underestimate.
    Do most countries count people in and out of country fairly accurately? Regardless of different views on migration etc why dont we do this?

    With digital passports nowadays it should be fairly easy, but we don't even try as far as I understand it.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,079

    I would like nothing more than to see Ed Davey campaigning against authoritarianism.

    Let me know if he starts.
    I'll keep you informed. I really look forward to signing you up. Might take a year or two.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    MaxPB said:

    Coincides with when the end of the vaccine programme is expected for all over 18s. I think Javid is being smart to avoid claims of intergenerational unfairness that younger people who were deprioritised for vaccines for the good of the country are now being treated unfairly with isolation orders as many haven't had their chance to be double jabbed.
    Hmm, but it's not very rational in epidemiological terms, is it? About the only thing that can be said in favour of such an irrational policy is that it might encourage higher vaccine take-up.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Hmm, but it's not very rational in epidemiological terms, is it? About the only thing that can be said in favour of such an irrational policy is that it might encourage higher vaccine take-up.
    It wouldn't exactly be fair if they have no opportunity to get vaccinated. Either no quarantine, or vaccination.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,273
    Cookie said:

    Yes, I remember seeing suggestions that the population of the UK was about 10% bigger than official figures. This seemed far fetched at the time.

    900,000 Romanians is about 4% of the Romanian population. Imagine that - 4% of the Romanian population is here!
    We don't actually know that they are here. What is stopping someone living in Romania applying at the address of a friend in the UK, so that they can work here in future if and when they want to?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    So the Medical Deep State and its enabling cabal of freedom-hating Marxist scientists have crumbled in the face of ... of what?
    They have crumbled in the face of an alarming rise in cases of conservative voters not turning up to vote conservative in conservative heartlands like Surrey and Bucks.

    See that's the sort of rise in cases that the government has to act on.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    There are some curiosities in the polling figures presented.
    Leave voters are 82-10 (right-wrong)
    Remain voters are 9-84
    Average based on 52:48 Leave:Remain weighting would be 47-45.5
    Headline result from poll is 42-46

    So there's a fair amount of swing, from some combination of new voters, non-voters, dead voters and false recall.

    In any case, it's interesting that, for those who did vote in 2016, there is little sign of any change of opinion. The lead for Brexit wrong is not being caused by people who voted Leave deciding it was wrong and changing their mind.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    We don't actually know that they are here. What is stopping someone living in Romania applying at the address of a friend in the UK, so that they can work here in future if and when they want to?
    You need some proof of residency when applying.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,553
    Sean_F said:

    Who would have thought that foreign companies investing huge sums here was indeed bad news?
    Remainers.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    RobD said:

    It wouldn't exactly be fair if they have no opportunity to get vaccinated. Either no quarantine, or vaccination.
    No, this argument is wrong, wrong, wrong. There is nothing at all unfair about objectively-justified differential policy. We really do need to get away from this childishness; in this case, damaging the economy simply because we're unwilling to take on the childishness.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203

    We don't actually know that they are here. What is stopping someone living in Romania applying at the address of a friend in the UK, so that they can work here in future if and when they want to?
    I would.

    Wouldn’t you?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,338
    MattW said:

    I think the bigger question wrt EU is that it is a pig-in-a-poke.

    No common idea amongst its members as to what it wants, no idea how to get there (obviously), and a leadership that could be improved on by the Goodies singing Funky Gibbon.
    That at least implies a union in which members may have some input on what they want and how to get there, rather than the big, fat boorish member telling them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810

    Hancock's Todger.
    It's down to the Saj? Nice humanizing take on things but I don't think so. I think it's more that June 21st very nearly happened and so it would've taken something big and unexpected to delay again.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    So they're making that a Step 5 it seems? Seems logical to me, though I think I'll be tempted to delete the app on the 19th.
    What app?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,548
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    27m
    Some people telling me Labour’s policy is to simply prevent all “avoidable” deaths. But then that requires a total and immediate lockdown. Given every loosening potentially increases transmission, infection rates, hospitalisations and deaths.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,338
    Fishing said:

    But the young get wiser as they get older.
    Lifelong conservatives are always saying that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,219

    Hmm. ONS ought to rewrite their top level blurb then (and there is no link from that page)

    Antibodies against coronavirus (COVID-19)
    The presence of antibodies to COVID-19 suggests that a person previously had the infection or has been vaccinated. In the week beginning 7 June 2021, the percentage of people that would have tested positive for antibodies is estimated to be:
    86.6% in England
    88.7% in Wales
    85.4% in Northern Ireland
    79.1% in Scotland
    The latest data is rather nicely visualised here

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc1434/syoa/index.html

    from this page

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveyantibodyandvaccinationdatafortheuk/latest#percentage-of-adults-testing-positive-for-covid-19-antibodies-by-single-year-of-age-in-england-wales-northern-ireland-and-scotland

    With data download at

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc1434/syoa/datadownload.xlsx

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    Anybody else getting a strong sense of deja vu about this thread?

    I'd love to contribute, but I really can't think of anything to say about Brexit that hasn't already been said ad infinitum.

    Yep.

    Remainersvotingagainsttheresamay'sdealwillofthepeopleevercloseruniononlyopinionpollthatmattersoptoutfromevercloserunionnotabouteconomicsaboutsovereigntywewerealwayssovereign.

    Should about do it.

    Next.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012

    Completely agreed. I agree with every single word of this.

    The sad reality is that some today would rather lie and pretend that Ever Closer Union is not a thing despite the Euro, see the dishonest remarks from Nigel earlier in this thread, than actually advocate for a democratic European federation as the end state to be in favour of.

    The only thing I'm not certain of is if the dishonest people claiming that Ever Closer Union isn't real are just lying to us, or if they're lying to themselves and actually believe that too.
    Once there is a Euro and an ECB it isn't possible to believe that there is no intention of a single state, whatever you tell other people. Overriding law making powers, a parliament, currency, central bank, a court which overrides state courts, flag, anthem, cabinet, treaty making powers, embassies....all add up. This is not the stuff of a glorified Hanseatic League

    It's no good to pretend it has no such ambitions because it doesn't have cricket team. And there is nothing wrong with the vision in itself. it's the denial that is the killer, because that involves failing to develop a coherent idea of the European future.

    It would be rather good to have all the good bits of the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Western Church of Erasmus, a shared classical and Judeo Christian culture together with robust British empiricism, with all the bad bits removed and democracy added. But that was not offered to us.

  • eekeek Posts: 29,738

    Do most countries count people in and out of country fairly accurately? Regardless of different views on migration etc why dont we do this?

    With digital passports nowadays it should be fairly easy, but we don't even try as far as I understand it.
    How would it be easy? We stopped collecting and consolidating the data years ago for reasons...

  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918

    The ONS reckons 87% of people have abtobodies. There's only 9 million to go. It has to burn itself out sooner rather than later.
    Is this really the kind of reasoning that the optimism is founded on, though?

    Not understanding that you can have antibodies and still be infected and still pass the infection one and still - as far as I know - get severely ill and even die?

    Not allowing for spread of the virus through unvaccinated children? Even though unvaccinated children are known to be currently the most highly infected group?

    I mean - I have seen comments in the news from some people who do know something about the facts - and who think the government's plan is the least worst option. But they are definitely not of the "Vaccines are magic - vaccines will make it all go away" variety.

    What those people are saying is essentially this: the Delta variant is so transmissible that vaccines alone aren't going to get us to herd immunity. The population has only been half immunised through vaccination. But the virus will be even more transmissible in the Autumn, so it's best to bite the bullet now rather than waiting for the vaccination programme to finish.

    Maybe that's right. Maybe it's wrong. It depends on the modelling, which not many people here seem to have any time for.

    But it's not a happy-clappy "everything's fine" message. It's a message that things are going to be very grim indeed, but if we leave it any longer they will be even grimmer.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108
    eek said:

    I'm going to regret posting this tweet but

    https://twitter.com/gideonrachman/status/1412367708939862023

    Gideon Rachman
    @gideonrachman
    Amazing stat in this @sarahoconnor_ piece. The government thought there were 370,000 Rumanians in Britain; 918,000 have applied for settled status. https://ft.com/content/1c489fb7-2840-4810-b3e6-a036803edf5c via
    @financialtimes

    Keeping their options open for later admission.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Downing St spokesman:
    "Herd immunity is not the policy goal of the government."

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1412377157628743685

    That doesn't seem to make any sense to me. There are only 2 policy approaches that I can see.
    1. Zero Covid where you go into lockdown for months to get back to zero cases.
    2. Herd Immunity where the population is protected by vaccines (older populations) and previous infection (youngsters)
    The first option when we currently have so few deaths should not in my view be considered. The negatives are so much higher than the positives.

    This leaves us with the herd immunity approach. We have vaccinated all the most vulnerable. It makes more sense for the rest to acquire immunity in the Summer to reduce potential impacts in the Autumn and Winter. The isolation is probably there to help "flatten the curve", to re-use an expression used extensively in Spring 2020.

    It is quite clear to me that we are going with this herd immunity option. We shouldn't be scared of saying it. Achieving it primarily with vaccines is our way out of this.

    I fear for Australia and NZ because unless they get vaccinating very quickly Delta will eventually get in and then they will be in all sorts of trouble. The one thing this government got really right throughout this whole pandemic was to realise that the only way out was through vaccinating as quickly as possible. They gambled on it but the cost of the gamble (i.e. supporting vaccine development and buying vaccines) was miniscule compared to other pandemic costs.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012
    edited July 2021

    Lifelong conservatives are always saying that.
    Maybe they just look at the age categories in polling data. Matthew Goodwin said recently that the cross over age for a Tory lead is now 37.

    And but for older people Jezza would have been PM for some time.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,176
    FFS a Brexit thread
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823

    Hmm, but it's not very rational in epidemiological terms, is it? About the only thing that can be said in favour of such an irrational policy is that it might encourage higher vaccine take-up.
    Realistically it doesn't make any difference because hardly anyone actually isolates after getting COVID let alone being a contact. But in general officially making being double jabbed have real benefits such as not having to isolate for COVID contact is probably something to nudge refusers to get the vaccine, definitely.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,458

    I support the democratic vote
    Have you ever tried independent thought?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    sarissa said:

    Keeping their options open for later admission.
    You need proof of residence when applying.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    TOPPING said:

    What app?
    ROFL. Indeed.

    The conservatives do seem, out of nowhere, to have contracted a nasty bout of conservatism. The type of conservatism that makes the assumption the louder the Rigbys, the Piers Morgans and the Alistair Campbells etc screech, the better we are doing.

    We may have to accept that the Conservative party may have been infiltrated by some conservatives.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The vast, vast majority of those Rumanians will be a fantastic asset to our country, along with all the other eastern Europeans who have come here to make a life.

    If it was me, I'd set up a trestle table in Red Square to see if we can get some of the best Russians too. Amazing people, badly led. And it would annoy the sh8te out of Putin.

    Will they? Most people are pretty average, including most Romanians. No need to sound as if you want to fell8 (as you would presumably write it) them all.

    Also see this desperate attempt to present a qtwtaiy as a qtwtain.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-romanian-crimewave
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    Charles said:

    That was my point: the PM should take responsibility for the systemic decisions. If he gets it wrong blame him for that.
    Agreed.

    I can't see what's "snooty" about calling the PM's action "vile" when the PM is not showing much leadership at all but demonstrating that his principal interest is in covering his capacious arse and taking personal credit, rather in the manner that an ambitious estate agent might.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,821
    Chris said:

    Is this really the kind of reasoning that the optimism is founded on, though?

    Not understanding that you can have antibodies and still be infected and still pass the infection one and still - as far as I know - get severely ill and even die?

    Not allowing for spread of the virus through unvaccinated children? Even though unvaccinated children are known to be currently the most highly infected group?

    I mean - I have seen comments in the news from some people who do know something about the facts - and who think the government's plan is the least worst option. But they are definitely not of the "Vaccines are magic - vaccines will make it all go away" variety.

    What those people are saying is essentially this: the Delta variant is so transmissible that vaccines alone aren't going to get us to herd immunity. The population has only been half immunised through vaccination. But the virus will be even more transmissible in the Autumn, so it's best to bite the bullet now rather than waiting for the vaccination programme to finish.

    Maybe that's right. Maybe it's wrong. It depends on the modelling, which not many people here seem to have any time for.

    But it's not a happy-clappy "everything's fine" message. It's a message that things are going to be very grim indeed, but if we leave it any longer they will be even grimmer.
    The number of people who have antibodies and who are getting seriously ill and die is very very low, and almost all fall into the category of 'would have died anyway'. We can't lock the whole country down on the basis of this. It's madness that there are people even considering it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810

    Anybody else getting a strong sense of deja vu about this thread?

    I'd love to contribute, but I really can't think of anything to say about Brexit that hasn't already been said ad infinitum.

    Good call. Otherwise you have to hunker down and say for the umpteenth time what you have said before - to the same people - then see if they say anything in response that's different to what they've said before. When it becomes clear they aren't, that it's the same old sh ... shebang, you switch topics and that was 45 minutes you will not be getting back, lockdown or no lockdown.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,273
    eek said:

    How would it be easy? We stopped collecting and consolidating the data years ago for reasons...

    Scanning each passport in and out tells you if someone is in the country or not.

    If 500k Swiss have arrived in the UK and 450k have left, shouldnt there be 50k more Swiss than when you started tracking? Excluding births and deaths which should be tracked, and nationality changes, which can be tracked if Swiss-UK and would be negligible numbers otherwise.

    I am sure I am missing a lot but getting close to an accurate picture does not seem hard or intrusive on visitors or migrants.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    IshmaelZ said:

    Will they? Most people are pretty average, including most Romanians. No need to sound as if you want to fell8 (as you would presumably write it) them all.

    Also see this desperate attempt to present a qtwtaiy as a qtwtain.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-romanian-crimewave
    You can imagine they went into that one thinking Farage must surely be wrong (because he's a bigoted idiot, right), only to find out he was broadly correct.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Sajid Javid delays removal of test and trace obligation to self isolation until August 16, a long time into school summer holidays.

    So more than a month to go of being pinged and having to stay at home

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1412376163733884932

    Not for those of us who wisely never downloaded the app... ;)

    I just stayed at home, washed my hands and rode out the pandemic.... Now I've had my two jabs I'm moving on lol!
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,608
    Chris said:

    Is this really the kind of reasoning that the optimism is founded on, though?

    Not understanding that you can have antibodies and still be infected and still pass the infection one and still - as far as I know - get severely ill and even die?

    Not allowing for spread of the virus through unvaccinated children? Even though unvaccinated children are known to be currently the most highly infected group?

    I mean - I have seen comments in the news from some people who do know something about the facts - and who think the government's plan is the least worst option. But they are definitely not of the "Vaccines are magic - vaccines will make it all go away" variety.

    What those people are saying is essentially this: the Delta variant is so transmissible that vaccines alone aren't going to get us to herd immunity. The population has only been half immunised through vaccination. But the virus will be even more transmissible in the Autumn, so it's best to bite the bullet now rather than waiting for the vaccination programme to finish.

    Maybe that's right. Maybe it's wrong. It depends on the modelling, which not many people here seem to have any time for.

    But it's not a happy-clappy "everything's fine" message. It's a message that things are going to be very grim indeed, but if we leave it any longer they will be even grimmer.
    I don't think it's grim. As vaccines continue to be rolled out fewer and fewer people will be susceptible. And those people will be those at least risk. If we have reduced the risk to that from other popular respiratory infections, what is the problem? And it's possible that Delta is so transmissible that lockdown of the form we had it in the UK won't work either.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    ROFL. Indeed.

    The conservatives do seem, out of nowhere, to have contracted a nasty bout of conservatism. The type of conservatism that makes the assumption the louder the Rigbys, the Piers Morgans and the Alistair Campbells etc screech, the better we are doing.

    We may have to accept that the Conservative party may have been infiltrated by some conservatives.
    I think it was Baker over the by-elections, tho.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,273
    RobD said:

    You need proof of residence when applying.
    A cursory glance suggests family members residing outside UK could apply based on their relatives residence?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    Chris said:

    Is this really the kind of reasoning that the optimism is founded on, though?

    Not understanding that you can have antibodies and still be infected and still pass the infection one and still - as far as I know - get severely ill and even die?

    Not allowing for spread of the virus through unvaccinated children? Even though unvaccinated children are known to be currently the most highly infected group?

    I mean - I have seen comments in the news from some people who do know something about the facts - and who think the government's plan is the least worst option. But they are definitely not of the "Vaccines are magic - vaccines will make it all go away" variety.

    What those people are saying is essentially this: the Delta variant is so transmissible that vaccines alone aren't going to get us to herd immunity. The population has only been half immunised through vaccination. But the virus will be even more transmissible in the Autumn, so it's best to bite the bullet now rather than waiting for the vaccination programme to finish.

    Maybe that's right. Maybe it's wrong. It depends on the modelling, which not many people here seem to have any time for.

    But it's not a happy-clappy "everything's fine" message. It's a message that things are going to be very grim indeed, but if we leave it any longer they will be even grimmer.
    "as far as I know"

    Is there a limit on that, Chris?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,608
    eek said:

    How would it be easy? We stopped collecting and consolidating the data years ago for reasons...

    We should know how many *foreigners* are living and working in the country as they get issued discriminatory National Insurance numbers (such as starting SG, there are others).
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021

    Is it just me, or spelling it "Rumanian" gives it a 1908, Times of London feel?
    Did the Times not use "Roumania"?
    Adoption of the spelling "Romania" as standard in the 1970s allegedly had something to do with the dictator's Caesarism.

    [Note to self: find time to check out what kind of insane stuff Ceausescu was into.]
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    A cursory glance suggests family members residing outside UK could apply based on their relatives residence?
    Where are you reading that?

    None of the criteria here suggest a person resident outside of the UK can apply:
    https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families/eligibility
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823

    No, this argument is wrong, wrong, wrong. There is nothing at all unfair about objectively-justified differential policy. We really do need to get away from this childishness; in this case, damaging the economy simply because we're unwilling to take on the childishness.
    It's unlikely to make any real difference. Most people I know are fully intending to uninstall the app on the 19th, I know I am. My wife has already done so after being pinged despite not being in the country at the time when it said she had come in contact with someone and had gone through the amber list rigmarole of PCR testing on entry and arrival etc...

    I think it's actually a politically savvy move from Javid knowing that it makes no difference economically. For months the Tories have been painted as favouring the old (fairly) and finally they have a policy which fucks the old farts off a bit for fairness to the young who have had their lives ruined for 18 months to protect the old. I fully expect that the end of isolation for contacts will be pitched as a fairness issue as well with the 4 week delay intended to give under 40s time to get double jabbed and a huge expansion of walk-in facilities.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    TOPPING said:

    "as far as I know"

    Is there a limit on that, Chris?
    Completely ignoring the absolutely massive reduction of the risk of getting severely ill and death.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,821
    edited July 2021
    Barnesian said:

    I'll keep you informed. I really look forward to signing you up. Might take a year or two.
    I'm with Philip here.

    To be fair to the Lib Dems, of the three main English parties they have been marginally the most liberal over the last 18 months. The Tories have been busy abolishing freedom of movement, freedom of association, parliamentary democracy, parliamentary scrutiny free speech and scores of other things we once took for granted in a liberal democracy, and the Labour Party have been sniping at them for not being even more illiberal. From the little I have heard from the Lib Dems, there have been a few reservations expressed about all this. Not enough, for my tastes, and the actual opposition has still had to come from Steve Baker, Graham brady, etc (who to be fair have greater absolute numbers) - but enough for me to give the Lib Dems a look.
    And then when I do give them a look Layla Moran says something absolutely idiotic again.

    But anyway Barnesian, keep plugging away. We have taken liberal democracy for granted for too long and we need a party who truly advocate it. Unfortunately for the Lib Dems for a long time it appeared to most who didn't look too hard that we did have a robust liberal democracy, so it wasn't an argument that saw many votes and the party had to look elsewhere for its battles. But the events of the last 18 months have shown us how valuable liberal democracy really is and the extent to which it needs protecting. I am persuadable.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    edited July 2021
    If we're going to reprise hoary old chestnuts interesting graphic on the bbc website of where your license fee goes.

    BBC TV = £6.42 (plus some allocated costs, let's say £6.99) a month

    Same as Netflix/Amazon/etc.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    100 million
    Two days, of the £350m/week EU contributions ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738

    We should know how many *foreigners* are living and working in the country as they get issued discriminatory National Insurance numbers (such as starting SG, there are others).
    Can you back that up with any actual evidence and documentation.

    Because that ain't how NI numbers are allocated - it's literally current office code followed by sequential number from 1 to 999999
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,821
    Chris said:

    Is this really the kind of reasoning that the optimism is founded on, though?

    Not understanding that you can have antibodies and still be infected and still pass the infection one and still - as far as I know - get severely ill and even die?

    Not allowing for spread of the virus through unvaccinated children? Even though unvaccinated children are known to be currently the most highly infected group?

    I mean - I have seen comments in the news from some people who do know something about the facts - and who think the government's plan is the least worst option. But they are definitely not of the "Vaccines are magic - vaccines will make it all go away" variety.

    What those people are saying is essentially this: the Delta variant is so transmissible that vaccines alone aren't going to get us to herd immunity. The population has only been half immunised through vaccination. But the virus will be even more transmissible in the Autumn, so it's best to bite the bullet now rather than waiting for the vaccination programme to finish.

    Maybe that's right. Maybe it's wrong. It depends on the modelling, which not many people here seem to have any time for.

    But it's not a happy-clappy "everything's fine" message. It's a message that things are going to be very grim indeed, but if we leave it any longer they will be even grimmer.
    On a similar note, I'm calling the peak for positive tests in Greater Manchester this week. That doesn't mean the peak for positive tests in England - other areas will follow our trajectory - but it does mean the peak won't get too high or be too far away.

    Let's see if I'm right!
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,628
    Nigelb said:

    While good news, in terms of vehicle manufacturing, the investment is peanuts (and the UK govt. seems to providing at least 20% of the money).
    ...Stellantis has held discussions with the UK government over options for its Cheshire factory and the company has secured UK government financial support understood to be in the tens of millions of pounds.
    The £100m is the total amount of investment, and includes the UK government support...


    Note Stellantis are building two large battery plants on the continent, with a third planned. None here.

    Nissan is still the only committed investment of any size for electric vehicles, and even that isn't massive.

    The U.K. has always been tiny in comparison to the continent Where this OEM is concerned. There have been concerns about the long term viability of this plant going back many years. This is good news especially given the potential for parts distribution in the area similar to what we see adjacent to NMUK.

    Of course this means the end of Vauxhall Car production in the U.K.

    Remains to be seen what future Luton/IBC has.

    The battery production will be a JV with Total. A French multinational. No prizes for guessing where most of the batteries will be made.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,338
    Uh oh


  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,273
    RobD said:

    Where are you reading that?

    None of the criteria here suggest a person resident outside of the UK can apply:
    https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families/eligibility
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/immigration/bringing-family-to-live-in-the-uk-after-brexit/
    RobD said:

    Where are you reading that?

    None of the criteria here suggest a person resident outside of the UK can apply:
    https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families/eligibility
    https://settled.org.uk/en/help/settled-status-advice-for-joining-family-members/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    And their positivity rate is over 20%.......two people I know there have died - one incredibly a diabetic surgeon who refused the jab.
    I know a doctor here, who spent a week in the ICU of his own hospital, having declined the vaccine. His wife also got quite sick. Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Vaccines work!
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,628
    IshmaelZ said:

    Will they? Most people are pretty average, including most Romanians. No need to sound as if you want to fell8 (as you would presumably write it) them all.

    Also see this desperate attempt to present a qtwtaiy as a qtwtain.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-romanian-crimewave
    There may be some criminals but we got that tennis player 👍
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    edited July 2021

    Pubs to stay open on Sunday to 11.15pm to cover possibility of extra time and penalties

    AAAAAAARGH!

    Here it is, right on cue, the gimmicking nonsense story about licensing laws being extended.

    Yet again, yet again: there is NO national law preventing pubs opening past 11pm. None.

    That law was abolished in 2005. Sixteen effing years ago. Most pubs around me open until 12am anyway, as a matter of course.

    Why does the BBC persist in repeating this myth that English pubs have to close at 11pm? It is utter rubbish.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,814
    MaxPB said:

    It's unlikely to make any real difference. Most people I know are fully intending to uninstall the app on the 19th, I know I am. My wife has already done so after being pinged despite not being in the country at the time when it said she had come in contact with someone and had gone through the amber list rigmarole of PCR testing on entry and arrival etc...

    I think it's actually a politically savvy move from Javid knowing that it makes no difference economically. For months the Tories have been painted as favouring the old (fairly) and finally they have a policy which fucks the old farts off a bit for fairness to the young who have had their lives ruined for 18 months to protect the old. I fully expect that the end of isolation for contacts will be pitched as a fairness issue as well with the 4 week delay intended to give under 40s time to get double jabbed and a huge expansion of walk-in facilities.
    It still startles me to hear of people having actually downloaded the app in the first place. I know lots did but I don’t understand why?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/immigration/bringing-family-to-live-in-the-uk-after-brexit/ https://settled.org.uk/en/help/settled-status-advice-for-joining-family-members/
    Interesting that this is inconsistent with what is on the UK government's own website.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738

    Uh oh


    Oh it's worse than that it features Piers Moran doing his usual inability to think while scoring points approach.

    Can you imagine his reaction if Emma Raducanu had reacted to her stress by say storming off the tennis court.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,367

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    27m
    Some people telling me Labour’s policy is to simply prevent all “avoidable” deaths. But then that requires a total and immediate lockdown. Given every loosening potentially increases transmission, infection rates, hospitalisations and deaths.

    That's the point I keep making. Labour's position is illogical. Current measures aren't stopping Delta, so if you want to stop Delta you need to tighten not loosen measures.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,132
    eek said:

    Can you imagine his reaction if Emma Raducanu had reacted to her stress by say storming off the tennis court.

    https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1412370511384956930
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738
    Taz said:


    The U.K. has always been tiny in comparison to the continent Where this OEM is concerned. There have been concerns about the long term viability of this plant going back many years. This is good news especially given the potential for parts distribution in the area similar to what we see adjacent to NMUK.

    Of course this means the end of Vauxhall Car production in the U.K.

    Remains to be seen what future Luton/IBC has.

    The battery production will be a JV with Total. A French multinational. No prizes for guessing where most of the batteries will be made.
    Have you read any of the articles regarding the investment - Luton is running at full capacity producing 100,000 vans a year.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329
    edited July 2021
    maaarsh said:

    It was going to 30k of course, and when Farage said 300k he was a total clown.
    The people in favour of mass immigration always grossly underestimate the amount of immigrants, whether out of deceit or ignorance. When they are inevitably shown to be wrong, the normal move is to say ‘but look at all the good they’ve done for the economy”

    Or call the people who were right ‘racists’

    Who remembers Remain’s ‘EURacists’?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Chris said:

    Is this really the kind of reasoning that the optimism is founded on, though?

    Not understanding that you can have antibodies and still be infected and still pass the infection one and still - as far as I know - get severely ill and even die?

    Not allowing for spread of the virus through unvaccinated children? Even though unvaccinated children are known to be currently the most highly infected group?

    I mean - I have seen comments in the news from some people who do know something about the facts - and who think the government's plan is the least worst option. But they are definitely not of the "Vaccines are magic - vaccines will make it all go away" variety.

    What those people are saying is essentially this: the Delta variant is so transmissible that vaccines alone aren't going to get us to herd immunity. The population has only been half immunised through vaccination. But the virus will be even more transmissible in the Autumn, so it's best to bite the bullet now rather than waiting for the vaccination programme to finish.

    Maybe that's right. Maybe it's wrong. It depends on the modelling, which not many people here seem to have any time for.

    But it's not a happy-clappy "everything's fine" message. It's a message that things are going to be very grim indeed, but if we leave it any longer they will be even grimmer.
    Is Chris short for Christina Pagel?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,939
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1412370511384956930
    She had a panic attack. You aren't either "brave" or "cowardly". The same as if you twist your ankle. You're just having a panic attack.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1412370511384956930
    Moron and Lineker...its all very Lawerence Fox...they constantly looking for outrage / validation on the twitters.

    I am coming to the conclusion it is the new mid life crisis. Forget the penis extension sports car and the new younger girlfriend, it is now all about the retweets....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,329
    edited July 2021
    Sir Keir framing the 21st July easing of the remaining restrictions as ‘all or nothing recklessness’ is the equivalent of telling a driver, who has slowed down from 100mph to 5mph, that slamming on the brakes is risking whiplash & sending themselves through the windscreen
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    The remainer's attitude is turning into the longest sulk in history.

    Britain's democracy is far from perfect, but its good enough that if the electorate really wanted brexit stopped, it would have been.

    Similarly, we are going back to freedom because that is what people want. Its not what the commentariat want. Or the opposition. But then these days their wishes and those of much of the electorate rarely coincide.
    What you can't seem to understand is that it is not a sulk it is a difference of opinion. Just because we have left the EU that does not mean the issue is dead. You simply want to ignore the inconvenient fact that already a plurality of the electorate think we made the wrong decision. I'll be very surprised if there isn't a major push to rejoin or join EFTA/EEA in 10 years time. Once the free unicorns fail to arrive the gap will widen.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884
    edited July 2021

    Good to see the Brexit debate continuing to be so horrifically entrenched. On here and in the wider public.

    Take the Nissan / Ellesmere announcement. Leavers will point at the remainer warnings and (probably justifiably) point out that the predictions were wrong. On the other side, remainers will point to huge government bungs to keep the business in the UK

    Rinse and repeat with every announcement

    My thoughts specifically on automotive and Brexit. Nissan seem to have thought of a way of making Brexit work for them. Which is very good news as they were giving serious consideration to closing Sunderland. Ellesmere Port is obviously also good news. An open car plant is better than a closed one. But it feels very tactical in comparison with Nissan. £100 million is a tiny investment by automotive standards, presumably be offset by land sales as they reduce the plant area by over half. It seems the UK government subsidy genuinely was make or break, which also suggests a lack of commitment. Production of the electric van is currently in the former Opel HQ at Ruesselsheim, but they are repurposing that plant for the core new electric enabled platform where they can switch models flexibly for scale and where they are clearing out niche products that don't fit the platform such as this electric van.

    In general there seems to be little electric investment going into the UK beyond Nissan and probably JLR. The electric bits are imported for this van, as are they are for the electric Mini. Meanwhile BMW is offloading ICE stuff to its factory in Hams Hall, while keeping the core products and key technologies in Bavaria . Toyota have ruled out electric car production in the UK for the next investment period. Which maybe suggests that the Brexit future is in niche products, while the core products are kept in the EU for regulatory and strategic reasons. But if, for example, ICE goes on for longer than people think, it may be OK
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited July 2021
    isam said:

    Sir Keir framing the 21st July easing of the remaining restrictions as ‘all or nothing recklessness’ is the equivalent of telling a driver, who has slowed down from 100mph to 5mph, that slamming on the brakes is risking whiplash & sending themselves through the windscreen

    And his own position really isn't any different...masks on trains...something something ventalation... pay people more to isolate, when the vast majority don't has nothing to do with money.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,367
    isam said:

    The people in favour of mass immigration always grossly underestimate the amount of immigrants, whether out of deceit or ignorance. When they are inevitably shown to be wrong, the normal move is to say ‘but look at all the good they’ve done for the economy”

    Or call the people who were right ‘racists’

    Who remembers Remain’s ‘EURacists’?

    Given that we don't seem to know what the population of the UK is I wonder how we can be certain that there has been an economic benefit, as at the very least any per capita stat is going to be wrong by quite a bit.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    I support the democratic vote

    and if the Tories switch back again to be pro-EU in a few years then you will no doubt adjust your views accordingly.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,201
    Roger said:
    Conservatives and [Boris] Johnson supporters are less ecstatic. Some seem to believe that Southgate is becoming a tool of deep Woke — with one Tory strategist telling me that the England manager’s patriotism essay was “suspiciously well-written”.
    https://www.ft.com/content/f177cfd0-24b8-49ba-bdd8-99b975828d23
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Independent SAGE would be proud of this statistical manipulation....

    The wage bill for all on air talent has been cut by 10% overall to £130m, down from £144m last year....

    However, many stars do not appear on the list because the corporation's commercial arm, BBC Studios, does not have to publish its talent spend....

    Claudia Winkelman also disappears from the list, as Strictly Come Dancing isn't counted either.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-57722068

    We have reduced our on air talent bill....haven't we done well....yeah but you bumped a load of big earners off that list and onto another one that we can't see and doesn't count for your on air talent bill.

    It’s almost as if they’re moving production of most of their output to Studios, purely to avoid reporting how much they’re paying to entertainers from money extracted under threat of imprisonment.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,132

    Conservatives and [Boris] Johnson supporters are less ecstatic. Some seem to believe that Southgate is becoming a tool of deep Woke — with one Tory strategist telling me that the England manager’s patriotism essay was “suspiciously well-written”.
    https://www.ft.com/content/f177cfd0-24b8-49ba-bdd8-99b975828d23

    Southgate was very academic at school, fancied a career as a journalist, and did work experience at his local paper, but sure it's "suspiciously well-written" because all footballers must be thick.
    https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1412360347726626816


    https://twitter.com/OvePM/status/1412354865716731907
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    algarkirk said:

    Once there is a Euro and an ECB it isn't possible to believe that there is no intention of a single state, whatever you tell other people. Overriding law making powers, a parliament, currency, central bank, a court which overrides state courts, flag, anthem, cabinet, treaty making powers, embassies....all add up. This is not the stuff of a glorified Hanseatic League

    It's no good to pretend it has no such ambitions because it doesn't have cricket team. And there is nothing wrong with the vision in itself. it's the denial that is the killer, because that involves failing to develop a coherent idea of the European future.

    It would be rather good to have all the good bits of the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Western Church of Erasmus, a shared classical and Judeo Christian culture together with robust British empiricism, with all the bad bits removed and democracy added. But that was not offered to us.

    Its not only not possible to believe it, it runs completely against history.

    If you read the US Constitution the Federal state never originally had that many powers and the 10th Amendment is much clearer on the principle of subsidiarity than the EU Treaties have ever been, but over time the ratchet effect has driven powers too the centre. The same is happening with the nascent European state just as it did with the nascent American one in the past.

    The only element of a federal state the EU currently lacks is the ability to raise its own tax rates, though developments are ongoing in that already as per the two trillion Euro Covid recovery fund.

    To believe that the EU is not going to have any further integration runs completely against the past few decades of European history, the past couple of centuries of federal history globally, and the stated desires of European leaders like President Macron and others.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235

    I wouldn't have thought it would be very hard to understand that we wanted to do our bit to help reduce the spread of a very nasty, often fatal, disease.
    Yes exactly. I downloaded it for that reason. I've now turned off contact tracing on it and will probably delete it shortly because I feel I've done my bit and no longer agree with ongoing restrictions.
This discussion has been closed.