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The LDs take Chesham and Amersham with a 25% CON to LD swing – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,153
edited June 2021 in General
imageThe LDs take Chesham and Amersham with a 25% CON to LD swing – politicalbetting.com

Detailed result

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Comments

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Two Englands.

    Hartlepool on the one hand, Chesham and Amersham on the other. One going Red to Blue, the other Blue to Yellow.

    Changing economics, demographics, attitudes, with boosts both ways (but in different directions) from Boris.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,098
    Well done Mike
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Mazel tov, Mike! Also cheers & slainte!!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,044
    Full credit to the local council for getting this election counted and declared before 6pm California time.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    That result means that the entirety of Con-held Remania is in play. Witney, Henley, and Maidenhead all suddenly looking very shakey.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2021
    Lol

    Can’t see a single c&a story on the bbc front page

    The governing party loses one of its safest seats and… nothing
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,098
    I think the seat is a Tory hold at the next GE still
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,964

    Two Englands.

    Hartlepool on the one hand, Chesham and Amersham on the other. One going Red to Blue, the other Blue to Yellow.

    Changing economics, demographics, attitudes, with boosts both ways (but in different directions) from Boris.

    And where are labour in all of this
  • 2024 is going to be lost for the Tories on the basis of a strong Lib Dem performance. Labour would be advised to look at these figures closely
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited June 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Full credit to the local council for getting this election counted and declared before 6pm California time.

    Yes, can now go and watch my "Friends" re-run here on the Pacific Rim.

    EDIT - With respect to the count itself, the setup looked pretty impressive from vids & pics, and the works appeared to be moving along at unhurried but rapid clip, like folks knew what to do and where doing it. And all very visible behind plexiglass for observers to see & monitor.

    Given the landslide nature of the result, the LD victory would have been obvious by the latter part of the counting, just from the sheer number of ballot papers stacked up for Ms Green compared to Tall Blue.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,795

    Two Englands.

    Hartlepool on the one hand, Chesham and Amersham on the other. One going Red to Blue, the other Blue to Yellow.

    Changing economics, demographics, attitudes, with boosts both ways (but in different directions) from Boris.

    And where are labour in all of this
    Praying for the return of Jeremy Corbyn?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,795
    ping said:

    Lol

    Can’t see a single c&a story on the bbc front page

    The governing party loses one of its safest seats and… nothing

    The BBC has the story now.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,031
    Two thirds if the Lib Dem parliamentary party are now female.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,795
    Now the BBC has caught up, when will Betfair settle the market?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,702
    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,494
    Pulpstar said:

    I think the seat is a Tory hold at the next GE still

    When the new MP fails disastrously to stop HS2!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,964
    Excellent result for the Lib Dems with pressure now for the conservatives in similar seats and yet this result is a disaster for labour who are looking at serious losses in 2024
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    I’m gonna stick to betting on football!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Two Englands.

    Hartlepool on the one hand, Chesham and Amersham on the other. One going Red to Blue, the other Blue to Yellow.

    Changing economics, demographics, attitudes, with boosts both ways (but in different directions) from Boris.

    And where are labour in all of this
    Good question! Think the answer is, on the same side as Labour.

    Certainly for Labour voters in LD-Tory marginals. But will the same be true, for Lib Dems in Labour-Tory seats?
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 888

    Excellent result for the Lib Dems with pressure now for the conservatives in similar seats and yet this result is a disaster for labour who are looking at serious losses in 2024

    This on its own I think is actually big picture a good result for Labour (as was eg 1997 Winchester by-election) as non-Con vote is concentrated in one place. BUT losing Batley & Spen would definitely be a disaster.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,494
    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,900
    rcs1000 said:

    I have a single conclusion from this: the LDs are largely detoxified from a Lab tactical voting point of view.

    But there were also masses of previous Conservative voters who moved over to the Liberal Democrats, or possibly abstained.

    Johnson has lost his magic touch and his power to attract.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,795
    ping said:

    I’m gonna stick to betting on football!

    England 1.34
    Draw 5.7
    Scotland 12

    Here's Gordon Brown's favourite goal, courtesy of Paul Gascoigne:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52915690
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Brain imaging before and after COVID-19 in UK Biobank
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v1
    There is strong evidence for brain-related pathologies in COVID-19, some of which could be a consequence of viral neurotropism. The vast majority of brain imaging studies so far have focused on qualitative, gross pathology of moderate to severe cases, often carried out on hospitalised patients. It remains unknown however whether the impact of COVID-19 can be detected in milder cases, in a quantitative and automated manner, and whether this can reveal a possible mechanism for the spread of the disease. UK Biobank scanned over 40,000 participants before the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, making it possible to invite back in 2021 hundreds of previously-imaged participants for a second imaging visit. Here, we studied the effects of the disease in the brain using multimodal data from 782 participants from the UK Biobank COVID-19 re-imaging study, with 394 participants having tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 infection between their two scans. We used structural and functional brain scans from before and after infection, to compare longitudinal brain changes between these 394 COVID-19 patients and 388 controls who were matched for age, sex, ethnicity and interval between scans. We identified significant effects of COVID-19 in the brain with a loss of grey matter in the left parahippocampal gyrus, the left lateral orbitofrontal cortex and the left insula. When looking over the entire cortical surface, these results extended to the anterior cingulate cortex, supramarginal gyrus and temporal pole. We further compared COVID-19 patients who had been hospitalised (n=15) with those who had not (n=379), and while results were not significant, we found comparatively similar findings to the COVID-19 vs control group comparison, with, in addition, a greater loss of grey matter in the cingulate cortex, central nucleus of the amygdala and hippocampal cornu ammonis (all |Z| > 3). Our findings thus consistently relate to loss of grey matter in limbic cortical areas directly linked to the primary olfactory and gustatory system. Unlike in post hoc disease studies, the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects. Since a possible entry point of the virus to the central nervous system might be via the olfactory mucosa and the olfactory bulb, these brain imaging results might be the in vivo hallmark of the spread of the disease (or the virus itself) via olfactory and gustatory pathways.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,521

    Two Englands.

    Hartlepool on the one hand, Chesham and Amersham on the other. One going Red to Blue, the other Blue to Yellow.

    Changing economics, demographics, attitudes, with boosts both ways (but in different directions) from Boris.

    And where are labour in all of this
    The only party able to perform equally in both areas.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Looks like the guardian doesn’t have anyone up overnight.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    IOW, most of those showing significant brain effects from Covid had not been hospitalised.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955

    This outcome was tipped here as good bet when the LDs were on 20/1.

    And widely dismissed as a value loser.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,795
    ping said:

    Looks like the guardian doesn’t have anyone up overnight.

    The Telegraph and Times are also asleep. And the Mail and Sun.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    This outcome was tipped here as good bet when the LDs were on 20/1.

    I'm a grand richer and owe you, OGH, a pint for highlighting the value. Or twelve pints.
    Please remember the Fund for Gormless Punters and Other Undeserving PBers - Give until it hurts!
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2021

    ping said:

    Looks like the guardian doesn’t have anyone up overnight.

    The Telegraph and Times are also asleep. And the Mail and Sun.
    They’re a shadow of their former selves

    Edit

    Ooh the guardian has woken up;

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/18/lib-dems-win-chesham-and-amersham-byelection-in-stunning-upset

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,044

    ping said:

    Looks like the guardian doesn’t have anyone up overnight.

    The Telegraph and Times are also asleep. And the Mail and Sun.
    Yeah, but what about GB News???
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,044
    What's really astonishing about C&A is that you could still get on the LDs at really good odds when it must have been really clear they were going to win
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    What's really astonishing about C&A is that you could still get on the LDs at really good odds when it must have been really clear they were going to win

    And I was the idiot laying them.

    Well, only for a bit, and early on in the night, but still.

    Lesson learned.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rcs1000 said:

    What's really astonishing about C&A is that you could still get on the LDs at really good odds when it must have been really clear they were going to win

    For one thing, LDs clearly lied about their internal polling numbers. Just NOT the way pundits & punters thought.
  • This outcome was tipped here as good bet when the LDs were on 20/1.

    I'm a grand richer and owe you, OGH, a pint for highlighting the value. Or twelve pints.
    Please remember the Fund for Gormless Punters and Other Undeserving PBers - Give until it hurts!
    Oh, the Matt Hancock Memorial Fund, you mean? I'll sling in a couple of bob, certainly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
  • A BIG thank you to Mike. I took your tip on this a few weeks ago and then I topped up again last week at what were still ridiculously good odds.

    I'm a happy man.

    More importantly, this sends shockwaves through the political sphere. We all know by-elections don't necessarily translate to General Elections. BUT, and it's a huge but, this does demonstrate that in going all out for the Labour red wall, the Boris tories are losing their heartlands in the south.

    Game on.
  • rcs1000 said:

    What's really astonishing about C&A is that you could still get on the LDs at really good odds when it must have been really clear they were going to win

    For one thing, LDs clearly lied about their internal polling numbers. Just NOT the way pundits & punters thought.
    Possibly not. I sense there was a huge aspect of low Tory turnout, alongside a good level of switching and tactical voting. That's consistent with the released stats.

    Tory support is a mile wide and an inch thick.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    ping said:

    ping said:

    Looks like the guardian doesn’t have anyone up overnight.

    The Telegraph and Times are also asleep. And the Mail and Sun.
    They’re a shadow of their former selves

    Edit

    Ooh the guardian has woken up;

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/18/lib-dems-win-chesham-and-amersham-byelection-in-stunning-upset

    It’s a shame in one respect - the possibility of a photo op alongside Rishi is unlikely now to materialise.
    … Boris Johnson also made a visit to the area to back Fleet earlier this month, telling local paper the Bucks Free Press (BFP): “I think he’s a superb candidate, he’s a local man, he’s lived here for a while and has a long career in business. He has a huge amount to offer parliament and the constituents.”

    The prime minister highlighted hopes of turning the nearby Chilterns into a national park, and ensuring that development takes place on brownfield land, not the green belt. And he claimed that if Fleet won, he would be the tallest Tory MP. The BFP said the MP, who towered over Johnson as they toured the streets, was “around 6ft 9in”...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    C&A live blog - Bucks Free Press - The scale of the defeat will ring alarm bells in Conservative Campaign Headquarters (CCHQ).

    Major issues in the campaign included the HS2 rail line, which cuts through the constituency and the Government’s proposed planning reforms which have sparked fears about building in the countryside around the seat in the Chilterns.

    Mr Fleet acknowledged the need to rebuild “trust and understanding” with voters and also suggested the Tories had been out-campaigned by the Lib Dems.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,795
    rcs1000 said:

    ping said:

    Looks like the guardian doesn’t have anyone up overnight.

    The Telegraph and Times are also asleep. And the Mail and Sun.
    Yeah, but what about GB News???
    What about Betfair? Will the market be settled before the day shift arrives at work?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,044
    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    I think the LibDems will do a fairly good job of squeezing Labour in marginals next time around. I wouldn't like to be the conservative MP in Guilford.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,044
    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    All they need is a characteristic leader and a burning national issue...

    Ah... I think I see a small problem.
  • Ladbrokes have already settled my bets.

    A huge thank you Mike.
  • GF2GF2 Posts: 14
    Just checking -- I seem now to be all green on C&A on Betfair, but there's no sign yet of my (fairly substantial) profit showing up in my account. Is this just going to be because Betfair haven't yet settled the market, or should I be worried?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    GF2 said:

    Just checking -- I seem now to be all green on C&A on Betfair, but there's no sign yet of my (fairly substantial) profit showing up in my account. Is this just going to be because Betfair haven't yet settled the market, or should I be worried?

    I wouldn’t worry. You’ll probably have to wait for their politics trader to arrive at work, though.
  • I mentioned the other day that peak Boris was May 25th, the day before Dom Cummings gave his testimony. That's not because that moment was decisive but because it heralded a lot of others things starting to go wrong.

    The wheels are starting to come off the Boris machine. It may take a long while before the vehicle crashes but it has started.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    All they need is a characteristic leader and a burning national issue...

    Ah... I think I see a small problem.
    It will be interesting to see if Davey can make any national impact at all on the back of this.
    As for burning national issues, there are plenty available to be exploited. Let’s see if they ever get around to it.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    I mentioned the other day that peak Boris was May 25th, the day before Dom Cummings gave his testimony. That's not because that moment was decisive but because it heralded a lot of others things starting to go wrong.

    The wheels are starting to come off the Boris machine. It may take a long while before the vehicle crashes but it has started.

    The boris exit date market just got interesting.
  • rcs1000 said:

    What's really astonishing about C&A is that you could still get on the LDs at really good odds when it must have been really clear they were going to win

    I topped up at 10-1 just 48 hours ago. Astonishing.

    One of the greatest betting tips I've ever seen. A huge thank you to Mike again. I shall keep saying it I'm afraid. He has brought me a big smile.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    As predicted, a new chassis for Bottas (and Hamilton).
    https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/17/mercedes-hamilton-bottas-chassis-for-french-grand-prix/

    If he still badly underperforms this weekend, the chatter about his seat will intensify.
  • Chasing after the northern Alf Garnett vote is now seeing them lose their southern heartlands.

    I do love political hubris.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited June 2021
    Labour should form an alliance in the south with the LibDems. It's not impossible that they could unseat Johnson in 2023/4 if they get their act together.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    All they need is a characteristic leader and a burning national issue...

    Ah... I think I see a small problem.
    It will be interesting to see if Davey can make any national impact at all on the back of this.
    As for burning national issues, there are plenty available to be exploited. Let’s see if they ever get around to it.
    Its time for Lembit Opik to come back.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Nigelb said:

    As predicted, a new chassis for Bottas (and Hamilton).
    https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/17/mercedes-hamilton-bottas-chassis-for-french-grand-prix/

    If he still badly underperforms this weekend, the chatter about his seat will intensify.

    And Pirelli confirm the tyre failures were as a result of Red Bull and Aston Martin running them at too low a pressure.
    The rule tightening will almost certainly affect their performance.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,391
    edited June 2021
    Once again our political journalists totally miss the story.
    As do the betting markets.
    Jeez. That is a shellacking.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Any thoughts on the impact on odds in Batley & Spen..... I have topped up a little on Labour but suspect Tory odds may (unnecessarily) lengthen....?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    UK Covid reality check.............

    Total Cases-No 1 in Europe
    New Cases-No 1 in Europe
    Total Deaths-No 1 in Europe
    New Deaths-No 5 in Europe

    Maybe Dom knows what he's talking about?

    1 - apart from France, of course. But this stat is pretty meaningless, because it depends on the amount of testing being done. I think the UK does rather more than anyone else. #positive tests <> #actual cases. Also the UK is of course one of the largest countries - per capita is a much more sensible measure.
    2 - see above. The UK is doing far, far more testing. I very much doubt the UK has the most cases. Otherwise we would have the most deaths. See also the point about per capita
    3 - a) Again, the per capita issue. The UK is kind of upper-mid-table per capita. We are a big country, we'd expect to have a lot of deaths.
    b) in any case, these statistics are a long way from being comparable, because of different ways of recording the data. Excess deaths is a much better measure, by which we are also mid-table ish.
    c) Even if the stats were recorded identically, it's very difficult to make comparisons. Has the SW had far fewer deaths than the NW because the SW has managed it better? Or is it down to issues like population density, general health, housing occupancy levels, climate (possibly), employment, etc? Of course it's the latter. And so it is between countries.
    d) A pedant notes that even in raw deaths, the UK is no longer No 1 (Russia says hello.)
    4) a) Again, PER CAPITA. The third largest country has the fifth largest number of new deaths isn't particularly lamentable.
    b) Nor is it, as far as I can see, accurate. There's loads of European countries getting more than the UK of actual deaths, regardless of per capita.

    Certainly agree that Dom was right about politicians and civil servants being woefully innumerate though.

    I'm sure you know all this of course and are just trolling :smile:

    Not trolling but keen that Johnson and his government is exposed as being one of the most useless and malign in recent history.
    You do so ineffectively when presenting a misleading picture on cases and deaths.

    The overall picture does look bleak, but leaving out appropriate contexts on things like per capita figures undermines your point, or even makes Boris look comparatively better than he should as in some instances it makes the outcomes of the big European nations look closer together.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Sure, by-elections dont always mean much, but you still have to win them, and that's a pretty impressive result.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    dixiedean said:

    Once again our political journalists totally miss the story.
    As do the betting markets.
    Jeez. That is a shellacking.

    Our political journalists were on the story quite early. It was most of our BTL commenters who rubbished it, and took the shellacking.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    UK Covid reality check.............

    Total Cases-No 1 in Europe
    New Cases-No 1 in Europe
    Total Deaths-No 1 in Europe
    New Deaths-No 5 in Europe

    Maybe Dom knows what he's talking about?

    1 - apart from France, of course. But this stat is pretty meaningless, because it depends on the amount of testing being done. I think the UK does rather more than anyone else. #positive tests <> #actual cases. Also the UK is of course one of the largest countries - per capita is a much more sensible measure.
    2 - see above. The UK is doing far, far more testing. I very much doubt the UK has the most cases. Otherwise we would have the most deaths. See also the point about per capita
    3 - a) Again, the per capita issue. The UK is kind of upper-mid-table per capita. We are a big country, we'd expect to have a lot of deaths.
    b) in any case, these statistics are a long way from being comparable, because of different ways of recording the data. Excess deaths is a much better measure, by which we are also mid-table ish.
    c) Even if the stats were recorded identically, it's very difficult to make comparisons. Has the SW had far fewer deaths than the NW because the SW has managed it better? Or is it down to issues like population density, general health, housing occupancy levels, climate (possibly), employment, etc? Of course it's the latter. And so it is between countries.
    d) A pedant notes that even in raw deaths, the UK is no longer No 1 (Russia says hello.)
    4) a) Again, PER CAPITA. The third largest country has the fifth largest number of new deaths isn't particularly lamentable.
    b) Nor is it, as far as I can see, accurate. There's loads of European countries getting more than the UK of actual deaths, regardless of per capita.

    Certainly agree that Dom was right about politicians and civil servants being woefully innumerate though.

    I'm sure you know all this of course and are just trolling :smile:

    Not trolling but keen that Johnson and his government is exposed as being one of the most useless and malign in recent history.
    You do so ineffectively when presenting a misleading picture on cases and deaths.

    The overall picture does look bleak, but leaving out appropriate contexts on things like per capita figures undermines your point, or even makes Boris look comparatively better than he should as in some

    meanwhile, back at the ranch . . .

    Politico.com - ‘Alito was just pissed’: Trump’s Supreme Court breaks down along surprising lines
    Thursday’s decisions laid bare an emerging rift within the court’s conservative majority.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/17/alito-supreme-court-trump-495121

    The key fault line in the Supreme Court that Donald Trump built is not the ideological clash between right and left — it’s the increasingly acrimonious conflict within the court’s now-dominant conservative wing.

    Those rifts burst wide open on Thursday with two of the highest-profile decisions of the court’s current term. In both the big cases — involving Obamacare and a Catholic group refusing to vet same-sex couples as foster parents in Philadelphia — conservative justices unleashed sharp attacks that seemed aimed at their fellow GOP appointees for failing to grapple with the core issues the cases presented. . . .

    Leading the charge from the right in both cases Thursday was Justice Samuel Alito, who penned caustic opinions taking his colleagues to task for issuing narrow rulings that seemed to him to be aimed at defusing political tensions rather than interpreting the law.

    “After receiving more than 2,500 pages of briefing and after more than a half-year of post-argument cogitation, the Court has emitted a wisp of a decision that leaves religious liberty in a confused and vulnerable state. Those who count on this Court to stand up for the First Amendment have every right to be disappointed—as am I,” Alito wrote in the foster-care case, notwithstanding the Catholic charity’s unanimous victory. . . .

    While Alito observed the court’s traditional decorum by railing at “the majority,” there was little doubt his criticism was aimed primarily at Chief Justice John Roberts, who provided the pivotal vote to uphold Obamacare nine years ago and voted Thursday to leave the law intact by concluding that the Republican-led states seeking to overturn it lacked legal standing to sue.

    In the latest Obamacare case, the chief justice left authorship of the majority opinion to the court’s longest-serving justice, Stephen Breyer, but the result was vintage Roberts: a largely-technical, 7-2 decision finding a lack of standing for the states and individuals challenging the law, while pushing aside more fundamental questions about the law’s constitutionality.

    Roberts was the author of the opinion the court issued Thursday finding very narrow grounds to strike down Philadelphia’s ban on Catholic Social Services due to its policy against vetting same-sex couples for foster care. . . . .

    Sounds like sensible policy hopefully with the effect politicians try to resolve political issues rather than rely on a court to push the political agenda, even if it is frustrating to side step the legal question.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    kle4 said:

    Sure, by-elections dont always mean much, but you still have to win them, and that's a pretty impressive result.

    for the LDs they are a lifeline - seats like this in a number of cases go on to be held by LDs for 40plus years after a byelection win (until a 2015 style meltdown happens)......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    This result may please quite a few Tory MPs. I dont think it wholly unfair to suggest the Red Wall has been fetishised and quite a bit of talk of 'the 2019 intake' has been pretty arrogant in assuming the need to try to retain that area is the only thing that matters.

    A result like this need not mean all other areas are under threat, but reminds that you thread the needle in looking after new and old areas.

    Likewise, Labour should feel more confident - some of the swagger will be punctured for the tories which will cost a small number of votes at other elections.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    ping said:

    Lol

    Can’t see a single c&a story on the bbc front page

    The governing party loses one of its safest seats and… nothing

    It should be more prominent, but given it used to be normal for governments to lose by elections (albeit this one would still be impressive) its probably a more measured take than many will have.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    All they need is a characteristic leader and a burning national issue...

    Ah... I think I see a small problem.
    It will be interesting to see if Davey can make any national impact at all on the back of this.
    As for burning national issues, there are plenty available to be exploited. Let’s see if they ever get around to it.
    Next test, the Wiltshire PCC election rerun!

    Not really.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    I'm surprised they didn't do better in 2019, and it's a long way to 2023/4, but break through in the south and you crack open a lot of possibilities.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    C&A live blog - Bucks Free Press - The scale of the defeat will ring alarm bells in Conservative Campaign Headquarters (CCHQ).

    Major issues in the campaign included the HS2 rail line, which cuts through the constituency and the Government’s proposed planning reforms which have sparked fears about building in the countryside around the seat in the Chilterns.

    Mr Fleet acknowledged the need to rebuild “trust and understanding” with voters and also suggested the Tories had been out-campaigned by the Lib Dems.

    So the planning bill is dead then. Shame in a way as like social care the government probably only make big changes if it has a huge majority, which it still has but now loads of southern tories in particular will listen to the furious tory shire councils and resist it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    This outcome was tipped here as good bet when the LDs were on 20/1.

    I'm a grand richer and owe you, OGH, a pint for highlighting the value. Or twelve pints.
    Please remember the Fund for Gormless Punters and Other Undeserving PBers - Give until it hurts!
    Oh, the Matt Hancock Memorial Fund, you mean? I'll sling in a couple of bob, certainly.
    Hancock will be pleased - Boris wont want to pick internal fights right now so he can start maneuvering to not be reshuffled out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Dont name your minor party something which immediately provokes a joke.

    "Breakthrough party eh? Guess you didn't live up to the name"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited June 2021
    Times like these are a reminder that while the LDs have been down for a while, and things remain tough (still need really big swings to win in most places), the Greens really cannot touch them as genuine contenders, despite the growing strength of the Green brand.

    Given the LDs are pretty green, if they could tap into and retain the non revolutionary Green vote itd help enormously.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Labour should form an alliance in the south with the LibDems. It's not impossible that they could unseat Johnson in 2023/4 if they get their act together.

    If Labour voters in the rest of the south are as smart as the ones here they won't need an alliance. Here they're down to their last 1.6% just by tactical voting. Take away the Labour candidate and they go maybe 0.8% abstain, 0.4% LD, 0.2% Con, 0.2% other, net 0.2% for LD: That's almost definitely less than LD would have lost to Con if they'd been in a formal alliance with Lab.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    I think the LibDems will do a fairly good job of squeezing Labour in marginals next time around. I wouldn't like to be the conservative MP in Guilford.
    I think a potentially really significant impact of this is Tory MPs in Remainia getting that squeaky bum feeling. If the end result of that is them telling the leadership to GET A GRIP FGS this might be no bad thing either for Conservative election prospects or the country as a whole.

    But there are lots of bear traps they seem rather more likely to walk into if they start grasping desperately for votes. A spot of woke-baiting might be populist yet likely ineffectual as a net vote-winner (while making it harder to shake off the Nasty Party image and in the long run bring down their median voter age). Pressing for release ASAP from covid restrictions has plenty of potential for backfiring - even if backbenchers don't actually set the course of policy, there's a downside risk of getting personally associated with being "soft on covid" if we do get a nasty exit wave. (Drawn-out events like this pandemic may well get remembered by voters for the last thing that happens. I think a lot of Tories hoped the vaccination success would purge previous problems from the electoral memory but the new variant and the argument the government was responsible for "letting it in" complicate the issue. IMO something underappreciated was how messy exit from restrictions was inevitably going to be - variants aside, an exit wave can only be avoided if you attain herd immunity before opening up, or release restrictions very slowly. Either way involves restrictions held in place until many are fed up with them, especially without sufficiently scary daily death tolls to reinforce their necessity.)

    What might be even worse for the Conservative party nationally, and arguably for the country, is the things that *are* effective at saving Blue Remainia backsides short-term locally but clash with longer-term or nationwide strategy. Obvious ones here include tax/spend and trying to claw back cash/projects for more comfortable parts of the country rather than a focus on "levelling up". A big takeaway of this by-election is that NIMBYism is a vote winner, even if hypocritical and unprincipled, and the "threat" of development risks losing more votes than the potential political benefits from jobs/homes for young people (and their ultimate Torification) and a reduction in the cost of living (of which housing is such a huge part). If we see really concerted attempts by Remainia MPs to water down planning reform, I've no doubt this by-election result will be playing on their minds as they do so.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,330
    I guess this shows the wealthy south really doesn’t like the levelling up agenda. Devastating result for the Tories. I’m in the position of wishing I had put more than a tenner on. Hindsight 😀 labour nailed on to hold Batley and spen now.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,330

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    The LDs are not showing any sign of a breakthrough that will seriously impact the next GE.

    We've seen similar results many times before in by-elections where LD in 2nd place to Con.

    Next GE is Con v Lab as usual.

    And Lab has just gone from 12.8% to 1.6%.

    They were second in 2017....
    It does demonstrate the real possibility of significant Lib Dem gains in the south at the next GE.
    For now, of course, no more than a possibility.
    I think the LibDems will do a fairly good job of squeezing Labour in marginals next time around. I wouldn't like to be the conservative MP in Guilford.
    I think a potentially really significant impact of this is Tory MPs in Remainia getting that squeaky bum feeling. If the end result of that is them telling the leadership to GET A GRIP FGS this might be no bad thing either for Conservative election prospects or the country as a whole.

    But there are lots of bear traps they seem rather more likely to walk into if they start grasping desperately for votes. A spot of woke-baiting might be populist yet likely ineffectual as a net vote-winner (while making it harder to shake off the Nasty Party image and in the long run bring down their median voter age). Pressing for release ASAP from covid restrictions has plenty of potential for backfiring - even if backbenchers don't actually set the course of policy, there's a downside risk of getting personally associated with being "soft on covid" if we do get a nasty exit wave. (Drawn-out events like this pandemic may well get remembered by voters for the last thing that happens. I think a lot of Tories hoped the vaccination success would purge previous problems from the electoral memory but the new variant and the argument the government was responsible for "letting it in" complicate the issue. IMO something underappreciated was how messy exit from restrictions was inevitably going to be - variants aside, an exit wave can only be avoided if you attain herd immunity before opening up, or release restrictions very slowly. Either way involves restrictions held in place until many are fed up with them, especially without sufficiently scary daily death tolls to reinforce their necessity.)

    What might be even worse for the Conservative party nationally, and arguably for the country, is the things that *are* effective at saving Blue Remainia backsides short-term locally but clash with longer-term or nationwide strategy. Obvious ones here include tax/spend and trying to claw back cash/projects for more comfortable parts of the country rather than a focus on "levelling up". A big takeaway of this by-election is that NIMBYism is a vote winner, even if hypocritical and unprincipled, and the "threat" of development risks losing more votes than the potential political benefits from jobs/homes for young people (and their ultimate Torification) and a reduction in the cost of living (of which housing is such a huge part). If we see really concerted attempts by Remainia MPs to water down planning reform, I've no doubt this by-election result will be playing on their minds as they do so.
    Yes, indeed. Since the last crash many areas of the country have done badly but many have done well. The largely white, middle class, southern seats outside of London have done pretty well and don’t want to really give up any of those gains. I think this May be the first nail in the Coffin of the levelling up agenda. One of the few things Boris has got right is the need to build more homes where people want to live. Give youNo people a stake in society and It makes sense politically too. NIMBYism is here to stay. The Lib Dem party was very effective in exploiting it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,022
    Reminds me that re-election are funny things. It's clearly not going to be repeated in the general election, but still an excellent result for the LDs. I imagine their share will tick up in the national polls following the excellent publicity.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,330
    Fishing said:

    Reminds me that re-election are funny things. It's clearly not going to be repeated in the general election, but still an excellent result for the LDs. I imagine their share will tick up in the national polls following the excellent publicity.

    Yes it will, and I,expect it will harm the greens recent decent polling numbers too. Recent polls,have shown the greens doing well, in some cases ahead of the Lib Dem’s. I expect this result will be used by Lib Dem canvassers to bang the point home that only they can beat the Tories in certain areas.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Pressure mounting on SKS to not lose B&S. From a strategy point of view - Cons & LDs probably want Lab to scrape home in B&S hence narrowly securing SKS (and subsequent Labour in-fighing) till the GE.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,160
    Wow, quite the win for the yellows that. Well done to Mike and everyone else who backed them.

    I’m not sure it changes too much - Tory MPs in the commuter belt know that the LDs are clearly a threat. The problem for the LDs is that when we get to the GE, voters will know that a vote for the LDs is a vote for a coalition with Labour and the SNP. And when it comes to it, I’m not sure the Cheshams, Guildfords, and Winchesters have it in them.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,330
    Wow. Very impressive.

    All credit to our OGH for keeping faith with this. And a very decent betting profit to go with it too.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,022
    tlg86 said:

    Wow, quite the win for the yellows that. Well done to Mike and everyone else who backed them.

    I’m not sure it changes too much - Tory MPs in the commuter belt know that the LDs are clearly a threat. The problem for the LDs is that when we get to the GE, voters will know that a vote for the LDs is a vote for a coalition with Labour and the SNP. And when it comes to it, I’m not sure the Cheshams, Guildfords, and Winchesters have it in them.

    Not just the general - even in the locals last month there was very little appetite for it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,330
    GF2 said:

    Just checking -- I seem now to be all green on C&A on Betfair, but there's no sign yet of my (fairly substantial) profit showing up in my account. Is this just going to be because Betfair haven't yet settled the market, or should I be worried?

    They can be a bit lazy.

    I imagine it will be settled when their market maker is back at work this morning, but it could take until lunchtime.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited June 2021
    I had rather scoffed at the notion someone raised that Labour might come below Reform, but though it did not happen clearly it was not as silly a prospect as I had thought.

    The level of tactical voting (or support switching) truly did surprise.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Step into Summer . . . with a brand new wardrobe courtesy of Chesham and Amersham. High-street fashion for professional-class voters who want to send a bold, new message from the Chiltern greenbelt to the swamps of Westminster.

    Plus, for every bewoke suiting purchased, receive from C&A as our gift, a stylish, high-fashion yellow cravat - just the thing for a Summertime fling! Or could it be more?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Well well, it seems that it really *is* 1993 after all, at least in South Buckinghamshire. The Con-LD swing of 25% is broadly comparable with Newbury (28%,) though not quite as enormous as Christchurch (35%.) It's not even as if the turnout, given that this was a by-election, was particularly low.

    I'm genuinely astonished. Can anyone think of any result since the start of the Coalition as remotely encouraging as this for the Lib Dems, who have basically been flat on the canvas since then? Richmond Park in 2016 doesn't come close (although FWIW I dare say that, if Sarah Olney had any residual concerns about her seat flipping back to the Tories again next time around, they've just evaporated.)

    It's hugely encouraging, and well deserved, to see the Government get a good kicking like this. It'll also put the fear of God into a lot of Southern Tory MPs. Yes, I know general elections are obviously a very different beast to by-elections, but if the realignment is happening, as it appears to be, then you would expect this to occur in the South as well as the North.

    Right up until this morning I'd have assumed that the Tories could win a comfortable majority again next time by knocking over what's left of the Red Wall at a much faster rate than they lose territory in the Home Counties. Now I'm not so sure. HOWEVER... this is one situation where the opinion polls, fickle as they are, can now come in very handy. A lot of people will be looking hard over the next few months for any sign of a Liberal Democrat revival off the back of this. If their ratings stay on the floor then it may suggest that this is just a flash in the pan; if they finally start to creep back upwards then all bets are off.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,330
    There can't have been that many statisticians or gamblers at the count.

    Betfair didn't move until 1.20am or thereabouts. If I'd been there I'd have figured it out over 2 hours earlier, if not during the last few days of the campaign itself, and made thousands.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,330
    Pulpstar said:

    I think the seat is a Tory hold at the next GE still

    Yes, it looks like a classic by-election protest result to me (of the 20th Century type) and clearly lots of Conservative voters sat on their hands.

    Slightly sorry for Peter Fleet, who I know has wanted to be an MP for decades.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,653
    Well done to Mike and TSE

    Not just a narrow win either.

    Lab in 4th.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,044
    tlg86 said:

    Wow, quite the win for the yellows that. Well done to Mike and everyone else who backed them.

    I’m not sure it changes too much - Tory MPs in the commuter belt know that the LDs are clearly a threat. The problem for the LDs is that when we get to the GE, voters will know that a vote for the LDs is a vote for a coalition with Labour and the SNP. And when it comes to it, I’m not sure the Cheshams, Guildfords, and Winchesters have it in them.

    If the LibDems get half the Labour vote in LD-Con marginals, they'll flip a few seats.

    That's how the LibDems doubled their seat numbers in 1997 despite a vote share down on 1992.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kle4 said:

    I had rather scoffed at the notion someone raised that Labour might come below Reform, but though it did not happen clearly it was not as silly a prospect as I had thought.

    The level of tactical voting (or support switching) truly did surprise.

    Goodness, in all the excitement over the headline result I hadn't noticed that Labour had turned into a footnote party. Imagine the panic if they now go on and lose Batley as well?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,330
    tlg86 said:

    Wow, quite the win for the yellows that. Well done to Mike and everyone else who backed them.

    I’m not sure it changes too much - Tory MPs in the commuter belt know that the LDs are clearly a threat. The problem for the LDs is that when we get to the GE, voters will know that a vote for the LDs is a vote for a coalition with Labour and the SNP. And when it comes to it, I’m not sure the Cheshams, Guildfords, and Winchesters have it in them.

    Also, I think even MaxPB and I would have been tempted on the basis of protesting against lockdown/Covid and then there's liberalising housebuilding, HS2 etc.

    Key message: don't take us for granted you arrogant so-and-so's.

    This will send CCHQ into wild panic though so Tim Shipman's phone will be buzzing like mad this weekend.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,653

    Two Englands.

    Hartlepool on the one hand, Chesham and Amersham on the other. One going Red to Blue, the other Blue to Yellow.

    Changing economics, demographics, attitudes, with boosts both ways (but in different directions) from Boris.

    And where are labour in all of this
    In the SKS shit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited June 2021

    kle4 said:

    I had rather scoffed at the notion someone raised that Labour might come below Reform, but though it did not happen clearly it was not as silly a prospect as I had thought.

    The level of tactical voting (or support switching) truly did surprise.

    Goodness, in all the excitement over the headline result I hadn't noticed that Labour had turned into a footnote party. Imagine the panic if they now go on and lose Batley as well?
    Panic would be well deserved in that situation, but as the LDs have shown you can get next to nothing in one seat then win in another.

    Batley wasn't a sure thing for the Tories in any case and I'm an adherent of the theory that simply not having swept all before them will cost a few votes as the swagger of success takes a bit of a hit so the LDs may have saved Starmer's bacon, but I guess it's a question of if Galloway can have any impact - he stopped being meaningful awhile back, but clearly it's time for throwbacks.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Factors in Chesham & Amersham 2021

    > traditional voting patterns (partisanship & turnout)

    > demographic & attitudinal shifts

    > Brexit - leave versus remain

    > COVID - vacillations, lockdowns, vaccinations, restrictions, variants

    > Freedom Day announcement > postponement

    > candidate selection pro & con (including personal vote of late Dame Cheryl Gillan MP)

    > HS2 and housing pros and esp. cons

    > by-election blast OR political transformation?

    Except for HS2, all of the above were also apply to Hartlepool AND Batley & Spen. Just in different ways & degrees.
This discussion has been closed.