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The Great Unknown: A Betting History Of The Great British By-Election

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    AlistairM said:

    He wants to say "New Labour" but can't so it is "New Leadership" instead. Perhaps he could try "New New Labour"?

    "New Leadership" also has the issue that it implies only the leader has changed. The rest of them are all the same (which is broadly true).

    Still think they should have gone with "a New Hope"....
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Pagan2 said:

    What if its hindu's waving it?
    I'd forgotten about that, I don't know if they actually put that symbol on a flag?

    I mean I assume it looks different.... lets specify an actual nazi flag with the colour scheme and everything the same...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    2017 was the outlier election in the same was we have outlier polls. Strip the need for people to vote seriously tactically to try and secure / stop Brexit and there would just have been downward sliding.

    Remember that in 2017 - the year of the Jeremy's big victory, 20% more people voted Tory than in 2015. OK so thats not much more than half of the 38% increase for Labour, but look what happened afterwards. Total vote tallies are irrelevant to the actual FPTP result, but indicative for trends.

    TORY VOTE
    2010 10.704m
    2015 11.334m
    2017 13.637m
    2019 13.966m

    LABOUR VOTE
    2010 8.610m
    2015 9.347m
    2017 12.878m
    2019 10.269m

    The Tory vote has risen every year since 2001. The Labour vote - with the brief exception of the two party polarisation that boosted both parties in 2017 - has been crawling upwards. Labour's problem is not Starmer is not Corbyn is not Milliband. Labour's problem is Labour.
    Genuinely dont see 2017 as the outlier I hope 2019 (as entirely about getting BREXIT over the line for some) was the outlier

    2010 Gordon Brown Lab lose by 2.09m
    2015 EICIPM Lab lose by 1.97m
    2017 Jezza Lab lose by 0.76m
    2019 Get Brexit done Jezza Lab lose by 3.69m
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    His policies and thinking was anathema to the most racist sections of society and most appealing to the least racist sections of society because he wasn't a racist, I notice you just ignore and sidestep this logic because you can't answer it.

    Also Labour is Corbynista in the long term, the most racist groups who oppose him are the ones who will die soonest and leave electoral power to those who are least racist.

    A anti racist Labour in a Corbyn way is the future however much you rant about the children being wrong :)
    One of the many flaws with this line of thought is that people have been applying it to support for the Tories arguing that because their supporters were traditionally older they were going to die first. Detailed examination by learned professors found that as these oldies die off they are replaced by more oldies as we all get older. It may even happen to you one day...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849
    Pagan2 said:

    Because to recognise millibrand as bame they wouldn't be able to claim that even for him as Disraeli would be the first Bame leader of a political party and incidentally prime minister
    Exactly. I stopped with Ed M and didn't mention Howard or the others because they weren't Labour.

    This is the Labour Party. Who claims to be anti-racist. And who still has a massive bind spot when it comes to anti-semitism.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Wrong-Daily is white. Pillock is white. Berger is BAME. Abbott is BAME. My point was that in large parts of Labour there is a hierarchy of racism where as Baddiel puts it so neatly: Jews Don't Count.

    The party promoted Anas Sarwar as the first BAME leader of a political party. Scottish Labour isn't a political party, but Sarwar isn't even the first BAME Labour leader - Ed Milliband doesn't count apparently.
    Indeed, though in case it wasn't clear I was responding to this part: Diane Abbott was on the receiving end of some horrendous racist abuse. She was also on the end of a lot of abuse because she is a shit politician that was willfully miscategorised as racist.

    People who criticised Abbott alone and exclusively are probably racist. People who criticise Abbott, RLB and the others are not and its wrong to mischaracterise the criticism of her as "racist".

    But you're right entirely, Ed was "BAME". As of course was Disraeli and Howard.

    The UK had its first "BAME" Prime Minister in the nineteenth century.
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210
    Two Paratroopers acquitted in Belfast as there was no new evidence. What a waste of time.

    Can Mr J Mercer be brought back into govt ?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 913
    Fishing said:

    Somebody proposed something fairly similar a few weeks ago. But it has the obvious objection that 5 million Welsh and Northern Irish could defeat something that 60 million English and Scots really want.

    Also, it's not true that there's nothing left to devolve. This wikipedia page lists several dozen powers that could be devolved:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_and_excepted_matters#List_of_reserved_matters

    For instance, time zones are reserved. But why shouldn't Scotland choose a different time zone from England if it wants? Or weights and measures. If England wants to go Imperial why is it any of Wales's business? Judicial salaries - the same. etc. etc.
    I will dig out the paper that inspired these musings (https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/publications/resist-reform-or-re-run-short-and-long-term-reflections-scotland-and) but a big part of it was that the majoritarian arrangement of our constitution is killing the Union, especially at a time of political disharmony between England and Scotland. Scotland can't take part in the political life of the Union because the dominance of the SNP means that Scottish ministers in Scottish seats is a vanishingly small possibility right now, while an English-focussed Conservative Party has no reason to govern in the interests of the UK (the current coalition sustaining it is a broadly English one).
    The scenario outlined reduces the threshold for Legislation to pass. Delegations would be counted together, and 2/4 would be required to pass. To expand on the example above, slightly. 13 Seats for England vote for, with 13 Seats in Wales voting for. Even if the entire delegation of Scotland and Northern Ireland (50 seats in total), plus the 12 votes against from the English and Welsh seats voted against it for an overall split of 26 for vs 74 against, it would still pass (26 being the minimum legislation could be passed on). Admittedly, you could have the situation where England's delegation votes for a thing, with 25 votes (a majority in the Union), but the other nations vote against and so the legislation is not passed (For the Brexit Deal, some quick calculations would see it get 13 English votes, but fall short of majorities in the other three delegations. Johnson would have needed the DUP onside). I see the point about blocking, although the Commons would still be the supreme chamber constitutionally and so something like the arrangement between the Commons and the Lords might emerge.
    Of course, the mere presence of such a chamber would change voting behaviour and, more importantly, the behaviour of the parties. A party could no longer depend on a united England for legislative success and would have to focus in other areas of the country, which in my opinion, in a Union of Partners, is right. Others, of course, can take a different view, but I fail to see how the Union can long survive under those circumstances.

    As for more devolution, I suppose I take your point, but Scotland are not anymore interested in weights and measures, or the OS or even Antarctica than anyone else. It'll be immigration policy, nuclear policy, the constitution, that catch people's eye and these are things that are much more difficult to devolve. But suppose we end up with a long term settlement of Devomax for Scotland. What then for Wales, if they demand the same, and NI? What if a political will for devolution in English regions emerges? Devomax for all? What then is the point of a Westminster Government and the Union?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:


    Still think they should have gone with "a New Hope"....
    Happy Star Wars Day.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    2017 was the outlier election in the same was we have outlier polls. Strip the need for people to vote seriously tactically to try and secure / stop Brexit and there would just have been downward sliding.

    Remember that in 2017 - the year of the Jeremy's big victory, 20% more people voted Tory than in 2015. OK so thats not much more than half of the 38% increase for Labour, but look what happened afterwards. Total vote tallies are irrelevant to the actual FPTP result, but indicative for trends.

    TORY VOTE
    2010 10.704m
    2015 11.334m
    2017 13.637m
    2019 13.966m

    LABOUR VOTE
    2010 8.610m
    2015 9.347m
    2017 12.878m
    2019 10.269m

    The Tory vote has risen every year since 2001. The Labour vote - with the brief exception of the two party polarisation that boosted both parties in 2017 - has been crawling upwards. Labour's problem is not Starmer is not Corbyn is not Milliband. Labour's problem is Labour.
    The Tory record since 2010 is truly astonishing. I very much doubt that has ever occurred before. To increase both the total vote and share of the vote 3x in a row in office. Amazing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    Nigelb said:

    No, we laugh at you for essentially rendering the term meaningless.
    No, I've explained consistently and clearly what it means.

    It's just your puny brain has trouble processing it.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    From the Guardian 12.2.21

    Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, appointed Martin Forde QC last May to investigate the leak of an unredacted report into the party’s complaints process. The report included details of alleged conversations between party officials about black MPs that were condemned as racist and led to a backlash among black Labour supporters.

    Detractors say it is unclear why Forde has waited until now, 10 months after the information commissioner was informed of the data breach and seven months after the report was initially due to be delivered, to warn of the risk of prejudicing the external investigation.

    “The possibility of a racist culture and a hostile environment for black members within the party needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency and the Forde inquiry is an important tool for doing just that,” the MPs said.

    The signatories to the statement were Marsha de Cordova, the shadow women and equalities secretary, Chi Onwurah, the shadow science minister, and the MPs Diane Abbott, Dawn Butler, Florence Eshalomi, Kim Johnson, Clive Lewis, Kate Osamor and Bell Ribeiro-Addy.

    The racists are on the right of the party and going after racism would get in the way of pursuing the politics of appealing to wealthy old white men.

    Which is why people on this forum and in the press don't care.

    As many people stated over and over again racism wasn't anything to do with it, people who previously pretending to be disgusted by racism (mainly rich old white men) in the light of actual racism being covered up by Starmer are perfectly happy.

    Just to clarify nothing wrong with being rich, old, white or male, I am some of these I will hopefully be all but at least one of them some day, just these are the groups where racism is currently most accepted.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    The Tory record since 2010 is truly astonishing. I very much doubt that has ever occurred before. To increase both the total vote and share of the vote 3x in a row in office. Amazing.
    I'm not sure if increasing both the total vote and share of the vote while in office had ever occurred before 2015, let alone doing both three times in a row?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    For the first time ever, UK posts less than its' population share of jabs - though Spain's update includes several days.

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849

    Genuinely dont see 2017 as the outlier I hope 2019 (as entirely about getting BREXIT over the line for some) was the outlier

    2010 Gordon Brown Lab lose by 2.09m
    2015 EICIPM Lab lose by 1.97m
    2017 Jezza Lab lose by 0.76m
    2019 Get Brexit done Jezza Lab lose by 3.69m
    I'm looking at the trend. In 2017 people ditched other parties and coalesced around the big two. On one side the Brexiteers ditched UKIP for the Tories, who fell from 3.881m to 0.594m. On the other side the remainers ditched the LibDems and the Greens for Labour.

    The difference in performance is that in 2019 the Tories increased their vote again and kept the UKIP/Brexit switchers on board. Labour on the other hand shed their coalition and fell back a significant way towards where they started in 2015.

    This isn't all bad news for Labour. Keeping to the 2010 > 2015 and then 2015 > 2019 trend they should get to around 11.3m at the next election which was good enough for a Tory majority in 2015. The problem - one that few Corbynites want to recognise or understand - is that it takes two to tango. To win on 11.3m you need the other party to crash. It doesn't matter who leads Labour, you need the Tories to drop 4m votes to have a prayer.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Floater said:

    Much, much better look than Starmer

    https://twitter.com/BBCTimDonovan/status/1389528330542665730

    "Sadiq Khan sparring at his brother’s boxing club in Earlsfield as mayoral bout nears end"

    Mind you my arthritic wife would look better than Starmer did.

    Wonder if Khan could become the 2nd former London Mayor to become PM in 2028/29
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774

    No, I've explained consistently and clearly what it means.

    It's just your puny brain has trouble processing it.
    I have no trouble at all with the amusing concept of you thinking yourself the authoritative source for self-serving word definitions.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,244
    My traditional scepticism of Electoral Calculus chalks up another one:

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_districtpoll_20210504.html

    Councils switching to 'No Overall Control':
    From CON: Cherwell

    Haha. No. That's not happening.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    🚨🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 | NEW: Coronavirus hospital deaths reported today

    ✅ East of England: 0
    ✅ North East & Yorkshire: 0
    ✅ South East: 0
    ✅ South West: 0
    ✅ London: 0

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1389564707225411585


    Surely we must be opening up too slowly now? I know it is after a bank holiday and numbers will go up tomorrow. Nonetheless, they are very low now.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849

    The racists are on the right of the party and going after racism would get in the way of pursuing the politics of appealing to wealthy old white men.

    Which is why people on this forum and in the press don't care.

    As many people stated over and over again racism wasn't anything to do with it, people who previously pretending to be disgusted by racism (mainly rich old white men) in the light of actual racism being covered up by Starmer are perfectly happy.

    Just to clarify nothing wrong with being rich, old, white or male, I am some of these I will hopefully be all but at least one of them some day, just these are the groups where racism is currently most accepted.
    And these same people on the receiving end of this alleged cover-up are happy to do their own cover-up of their own racism towards Jews.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    DavidL said:

    One of the many flaws with this line of thought is that people have been applying it to support for the Tories arguing that because their supporters were traditionally older they were going to die first. Detailed examination by learned professors found that as these oldies die off they are replaced by more oldies as we all get older. It may even happen to you one day...
    Yes but as with homophobia the prejudices die with the generations, the younger Corbynista generation is going to become old people but retain their anti racist stances not adopt the racist stances of the older starmer supporting generations.

    The Tories didn't stand still claiming gays were bad, they moved with the generational views, Labour party will have to do the same, from racist starmer views held currently to a more anti racist Corbynista views. Like the Labour party had to more towards Corbyn on gay rights and away from homophobia.

    The future is bright in terms of anti racism.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    Nigelb said:

    I have no trouble at all with the amusing concept of you thinking yourself the authoritative source for self-serving word definitions.
    Since you can't ever engage with the argument, except with ad hominem, I'd say that demonstrates the limits of your intellect rather neatly.

    And now, I must work. Good day.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Exactly. I stopped with Ed M and didn't mention Howard or the others because they weren't Labour.

    This is the Labour Party. Who claims to be anti-racist. And who still has a massive bind spot when it comes to anti-semitism.
    I would say "still" is unfair, given that the start of the problem can be dated precisely to September 2015.

    Anyway, using hatred of Starmer by Corbynista fanboys as a crude proxy for whether he's addressing the issue, ten minutes of scanning this forum today has made me quite optimistic.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Despair.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    I'm not sure if increasing both the total vote and share of the vote while in office had ever occurred before 2015, let alone doing both three times in a row?
    I had to check 1987 where the swing against Thatcher was all of 0.2% but no other example comes to mind as a possibility.

    It does suggest that those who were so certain that the Tory party was going to tear itself apart and self destruct over Europe were not entirely right.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    And these same people on the receiving end of this alleged cover-up are happy to do their own cover-up of their own racism towards Jews.
    Are we talking about Starmer and his vile lot helping McNicol and that get away with their disgusting lack of action or are we pretending the left are racist again because you have absolutely no political argument and the morons who were supposed to be 20 points ahead are actually complete electoral failures?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    I did think about including a disclaimer that I was using your post to argue a point I wanted to make against centrists rather than you particulalry... I probably should have!

    Also Corbyn's opponents had no time for discussing the real issues beyond using absolutely everything as a stick to attack their factional enemies with. It is obviously stupid to run things like this but as with football refereeing the most important thing (IMO) is consistency.

    I intend to lunge in on the Blairites with leg breaking two footed studs up tackles at every opportunity without receiving a card, as they didn't either, then it is fair for everyone.

    Although I apologise for using you as a proxy to get at them.
    Ok, I'll let you off this time. Listen, you and I share some politics but we must part company if you're going to actively work against Labour through dislike of Starmer. I know the Blairites did the same (in spades) when Corbyn was leader - often pretending it was all about stopping Brexit lol - but still. This is just the most ghastly regime under the most ghastly PM we have in power right now and for me it has to be all hands on deck, unite to kill.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    I'm not a fan but there's no doubting Khan is a consummate politician.
    Not much of a boxer though, his head was wide open and he was leading with his chin when he came forward.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774

    Since you can't ever engage with the argument, except with ad hominem, I'd say that demonstrates the limits of your intellect rather neatly.

    And now, I must work. Good day.
    Good day to you too, Humpty.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279
    Nigelb said:

    I have no trouble at all with the amusing concept of you thinking yourself the authoritative source for self-serving word definitions.
    Let's not forget that the word was coined by the left's fringe crazy-bunch who used it to insult and attack the rest of us.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,131

    Hopefully we're going to find out.

    If Boris Johnson wants my vote he should pass a law requiring all police officers to wear bodycams.
    The clown wearing a bodycam would save a lot of time and money in inquiries...
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    DavidL said:

    I had to check 1987 where the swing against Thatcher was all of 0.2% but no other example comes to mind as a possibility.

    It does suggest that those who were so certain that the Tory party was going to tear itself apart and self destruct over Europe were not entirely right.
    The Tories have ended the civil war over Europe. How many Tories are out there campaigning to rejoin?

    On the other hand it is Labour now who might well have the civil war over it. Most of their politician are fervently pro-EU (e.g. Starmer). They are very split over whether to campaign to rejoin!
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kinabalu said:

    Ok, I'll let you off this time. Listen, you and I share some politics but we must part company if you're going to actively work against Labour through dislike of Starmer. I know the Blairites did the same (in spades) when Corbyn was leader - often pretending it was all about stopping Brexit lol - but still. This is just the most ghastly regime under the most ghastly PM we have in power right now and for me it has to be all hands on deck, unite to kill.
    Sorry mate I hate them more than the Tories at the moment, the only argument I can see for voting for Labour is accelerationism which is never something I have subscribed too.

    I appreciate the logic of your position I just don't share it.
  • CursingStoneCursingStone Posts: 421

    If you're outraged by the cheap cookies I guess you're shaking with anger with David Amess telling people to vote Tory in the locals because ministers will go the extra mile for Tory councils but not for non Tory councils.

    I saw that, while not the same thing, was a very poor thing to do. Governments want to do business with councils who will deliver projects on budget for them. They dont care enormously who runs them. A good local MP would work with any council to get resources in to them. It is the MP who is the conduit for decisions. It helps to have an MP of the ruling party and it helps more for your local council to be competent and willing to work with their MP whatever their allegiances are.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824
    edited May 2021
    This thread. Read it all. JFC. This is why Wokeness is dangerous and shit at the same time

    https://twitter.com/kyleworton/status/1389532009605775364?s=21

    ‘Liverpool University is removing the name of William Gladstone from one of its buildings because the Prime Minister, the great liberal exemplar, had a father who benefited from slavery. The building will be renamed for a Communist, Dorothy Kuya.’
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,509

    I'm not a fan but there's no doubting Khan is a consummate politician.
    He always reminds me of one of those classic urban American machine politicians who knew who to play on the grievances of every minority group at the expense of the people whose taxes pay for everything. They are the ones that caused white flight and urban decay between the 1930s and 1980s as the tax base collapsed. Something similar might happen to London.


  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    edited May 2021

    I think the German Greens and British Greens are miles apart.
    @Casino_Royale let's play German Greens or British Greens

    Police officers need better and more intensive training to protect all basic and human rights, such as freedom of the press, or in the fight against racism. That must become one of the main contents of police training. And it means: a social pluralism must be reflected in the composition of the police to a greater extent than before.

    All people have the exclusive right to define their own gender. Intersexual, transsexual and non-binary people have the right to have their self-defined gender officially recog- nized without bureaucratic or medical hurdles. Self-determination requires compre- hensive protection from violence.

    X's colonial past has been dealt with far too little in the cultural sphere as well. Extensive research is needed on the origin of objects collected and intangible cultural assets from colonial contexts, their return to the societies of origin, and the decolonization of cultural institutions and the public domain. This can only be done in close cooperation with the descendants of the formerly colonized, domestically as well as internationally.

    Racism is an undeniable reality in our society and is more or less present in all structures. Racism - and every other form of group-related hostility towards people - means that many people in X are not safe.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,834

    I also have Union Jack cufflinks.

    As a gag gift from a friend I also have some Welsh flag cufflinks. Which I will never wear.

    I'm quite the avid collector of cufflinks, I have about 20 or so, mostly Paul Smith ones.
    I'm in not Welsh*, but the Welsh flag is perhaps the best flag in the world.

    *not by birth, anyway. But like any Englishman there's a bit of Welsh in the lineage somewhere. Indeed, in the dim and distant past some of my ancestors were MPs for Anglesey, in the days when such things were passed on.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Endillion said:

    I would say "still" is unfair, given that the start of the problem can be dated precisely to September 2015.

    Anyway, using hatred of Starmer by Corbynista fanboys as a crude proxy for whether he's addressing the issue, ten minutes of scanning this forum today has made me quite optimistic.
    Weird given people kept going back before that time (whether they were looking for left wing or centrist anti semitism)

    I guess all the anti semitism people used as a weapon against Corbyn (or centrists) that appeared before that date was part of Corbyn's evil racist plan were he went back in time and planted racist comments that seem as if they existed before Corbyn won the leadership but clever older white men with large bank accounts saw through this...

    Young people and minorities haven't got this kind of magic perception which is why they can't see that Corbyn is secretly a time travelling racist.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,131

    Wrong-Daily is white. Pillock is white. Berger is BAME. Abbott is BAME. My point was that in large parts of Labour there is a hierarchy of racism where as Baddiel puts it so neatly: Jews Don't Count.

    The party promoted Anas Sarwar as the first BAME leader of a political party. Scottish Labour isn't a political party, but Sarwar isn't even the first BAME Labour leader - Ed Milliband doesn't count apparently.
    Officially - i.e. according to the officially approved definitions used by the ONS and others - Jewish people aren’t BAME.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    Cookie said:

    I' But like any Englishman there's a bit of Welsh in the lineage somewhere. .
    Presumably this is why England can still play a form of rugby union?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715

    He went off in a mildly threatening direction and I saw that as a chance to fire a cheap insult off at him. If Nigel was the kind of person you could have a reasonable discussion with I would do that, I know him far too well best I'm getting is tit for tat.
    Quick question. First off, cracking discussions this morning between you all - what makes PB PB.

    My question is would you want me as a member of the Labour Party.

    Old white bloke but with many GEs left in me I hope, voted Cons all my life, small state, personal responsibility kind of guy, on the right or left of centre (it's all the same), appalled by Jezza's anti-semitism (or of his presiding over a party wherein anti-semites felt emboldened), appalled also by what the Cons have turned into post 2016 and hence no longer a member.

    It may well be that you need me to vote for Lab. Would you welcome me with open arms? Or through gritted teeth? Or would you not want me at all?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Cookie said:

    But like any Englishman there's a bit of Welsh in the lineage somewhere. Indeed, in the dim and distant past some of my ancestors were MPs for Anglesey, in the days when such things were passed on.

    There's nee Welsh in my lineage mate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824
    I will die a happy cisgender privileged white male if we achieve absolutely zero, and yet we achieve this: we consign the woke Left to the electoral toilet FOREVER.

    We must destroy them. This is a battle to the death
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    edited May 2021
    Leon said:

    This thread. Read it all. JFC. This is why Wokeness is dangerous and shit at the same time

    https://twitter.com/kyleworton/status/1389532009605775364?s=21

    ‘Liverpool University is removing the name of William Gladstone from one of its buildings because the Prime Minister, the great liberal exemplar, had a father who benefited from slavery. The building will be renamed for a Communist, Dorothy Kuya.’

    Well. in fairness, Communism never did anything wrong did it 🤦‍♂️

    Dorothy Kuya was no idealistic "private" Communist, incidentally: she was a lifelong member of the CPGB, a creature entirely controlled by the KGB, which worked to destroy Britain down to the last day of the Soviet Union.
    Quote Tweet

    In short, a traitor.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Khan looks like he’s got a bit of game in the ring. I wouldn’t fancy facing him - even though I’m a couple of weight classes above him.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Leon said:

    I will die a happy cisgender privileged white male if we achieve absolutely zero, and yet we achieve this: we consign the woke Left to the electoral toilet FOREVER.

    We must destroy them. This is a battle to the death

    Not going to happen mate. You need to respect other people's views if you want them to respect yours.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2021
    DavidL said:

    I had to check 1987 where the swing against Thatcher was all of 0.2% but no other example comes to mind as a possibility.

    It does suggest that those who were so certain that the Tory party was going to tear itself apart and self destruct over Europe were not entirely right.
    Indeed in 1983 and 1987 the Tories actually lost vote share, despite gaining seats in 1983 and gaining votes in 1987. 1992 the Tories gained votes again, but again lost share.

    I can't think of any election where the governing party has gained both votes and share, before 2015. I seem to recall Cameron claiming it as unprecedented at Party Conference in 2015, but I'm not sure if I'm right on that or not? Never thought it could then go on to happen three times in a row.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715

    Khan looks like he’s got a bit of game in the ring. I wouldn’t fancy facing him - even though I’m a couple of weight classes above him.

    Yebbut there's a reason there are weight classes.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    DavidL said:

    Well. in fairness, Communism never did anything wrong did it 🤦‍♂️
    His name is removed from the building because his father owned slaves? Quite ridiculous.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    edited May 2021
    Come on guys. Who wants to play? Is this quote from the German Greens or E+W Greens?

    X colonial past has been dealt with far too little in the cultural sphere as well. Extensive research is needed on the origin of objects collected and intangible cultural assets from colonial contexts, their return to the societies of origin, and the decolonization of cultural institutions and the public domain. This can only be done in close cooperation with the descendants of the formerly colonized, domestically as well as internationally.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362

    Come on guys. Who wants to play? Is this quote from the German Greens or E+W Greens?

    X colonial past has been dealt with far too little in the cultural sphere as well. Extensive research is needed on the origin of objects collected and intangible cultural assets from colonial contexts, their return to the societies of origin, and the decolonization of cultural institutions and the public domain. This can only be done in close cooperation with the descendants of the formerly colonized, domestically as well as internationally.

    Why not both? ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824

    Not going to happen mate. You need to respect other people's views if you want them to respect yours.
    We’re doing pretty well politically. You haven’t won a general election for 16 years and you don’t look anywhere near it, yet

    What we have neglected is the cultural side, where you repulsive commies have advanced, stealthily. That needs to be addressed and Boris and Priti have started the job

    40 years of endless Tory government should do it
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    RobD said:

    Why not both? ;)
    Well exactly. My point is clearly that there isn't as much difference between the Green Party here and the Green Party in German on social issues as some people here seem to think.

    For what it's worth, that quote is from the German Green Party's website.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Leon said:

    We’re doing pretty well politically. You haven’t won a general election for 16 years and you don’t look anywhere near it, yet

    What we have neglected is the cultural side, where you repulsive commies have advanced, stealthily. That needs to be addressed and Boris and Priti have started the job

    40 years of endless Tory government should do it
    That's what I thought.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Looks like the BBC got into line with orders from the no 10 politburo given the ridiculous amount of coverage given to the 1 billion pound deal with India ! Amazing the amount of coverage this is given but nowhere to be seen is the disaster for fishing and agriculture caused by Brexit .
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,808

    Weird given people kept going back before that time (whether they were looking for left wing or centrist anti semitism)

    I guess all the anti semitism people used as a weapon against Corbyn (or centrists) that appeared before that date was part of Corbyn's evil racist plan were he went back in time and planted racist comments that seem as if they existed before Corbyn won the leadership but clever older white men with large bank accounts saw through this...

    Young people and minorities haven't got this kind of magic perception which is why they can't see that Corbyn is secretly a time travelling racist.
    Please don't tar young people with your brush, most are sane and a great number of them also saw through corbyn and didnt vote for him 71% in fact
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Weird given people kept going back before that time (whether they were looking for left wing or centrist anti semitism)

    I guess all the anti semitism people used as a weapon against Corbyn (or centrists) that appeared before that date was part of Corbyn's evil racist plan were he went back in time and planted racist comments that seem as if they existed before Corbyn won the leadership but clever older white men with large bank accounts saw through this...

    Young people and minorities haven't got this kind of magic perception which is why they can't see that Corbyn is secretly a time travelling racist.
    Yes, the problem isn't that Labour had people with objectionable views in the party (because all parties do, and policing it totally is impossible). It's that they made one of them leader, and he then acted to make the party a "safe space" for those who shared his views - see as evidence the ECHR's findings about interference with the complaints procedure.

    The proof that his views were objectionable dates back to long before September 2015, but it only became a serious problem once he was leader of the party.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849
    IanB2 said:

    Officially - i.e. according to the officially approved definitions used by the ONS and others - Jewish people aren’t BAME.

    David Baddiel cuts to the heart of this issue - he would be put against the wall and shot as Jewish by the Nazis despite being atheist. Being Jewish isn't about choosing your religion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    nico679 said:

    Looks like the BBC got into line with orders from the no 10 politburo given the ridiculous amount of coverage given to the 1 billion pound deal with India ! Amazing the amount of coverage this is given but nowhere to be seen is the disaster for fishing and agriculture caused by Brexit .

    You mean it isn't newsworthy, after all the comments that the UK wouldn't be able to do any trade deals on its own after leaving the EU?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    "Fears of a coup in France are exaggerated, but a far-right president is a real possibility

    Jean-Yves Camus"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/04/coup-france-far-right-president-marine-le-pen
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630
    Leon said:

    This thread. Read it all. JFC. This is why Wokeness is dangerous and shit at the same time

    https://twitter.com/kyleworton/status/1389532009605775364?s=21

    ‘Liverpool University is removing the name of William Gladstone from one of its buildings because the Prime Minister, the great liberal exemplar, had a father who benefited from slavery. The building will be renamed for a Communist, Dorothy Kuya.’

    A communist? Really? No issues there at all. No-one died because of Lenin or Stalin, or Mao did they?
    Idiots.
    And worse - malign idiots, without the intelligence to realise how stupid they are.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    DavidL said:

    Well. in fairness, Communism never did anything wrong did it 🤦‍♂️

    Dorothy Kuya was no idealistic "private" Communist, incidentally: she was a lifelong member of the CPGB, a creature entirely controlled by the KGB, which worked to destroy Britain down to the last day of the Soviet Union.
    Quote Tweet

    In short, a traitor.
    You have to break a few (million) eggs David :wink:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    RobD said:

    You mean it isn't newsworthy, after all the comments that the UK wouldn't be able to do any trade deals on its own after leaving the EU?
    Except nobody said the UK wouldn't be able to do any trade deals on its own, so you've just completely made that up. Come on man.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    edited May 2021

    Not going to happen mate. You need to respect other people's views if you want them to respect yours.
    I agree. These people are complete numpties and Liverpool University should be totally ashamed of itself but tolerance, freedom of thought and ultimately freedom itself needs numpties if only to stand in ridicule from the rest of us.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849
    Pagan2 said:

    Please don't tar young people with your brush, most are sane and a great number of them also saw through corbyn and didnt vote for him 71% in fact
    71% of young people didn't vote for Corbyn? Must be Tories then...
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Fantastic piece
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Election Maps UK
    @ElectionMapsUK
    ·
    2h
    Most Common Candidate Names in the May 2021 Elections:

    David: 542
    John: 471
    Paul: 375
    Richard: 293
    Peter: 275

    Via
    @democlub
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233

    David Baddiel cuts to the heart of this issue - he would be put against the wall and shot as Jewish by the Nazis despite being atheist. Being Jewish isn't about choosing your religion.
    It's an interesting one - I was having just this debate with my daughter a day or 2 ago...

    - Many Jews believe that you can only be Jewish if you are maternally descended from Jews.
    - Some Jews believe that you can convert to the faith
    - Most antisemites believe that it is racial - and any parentage will do. Not sure what they believe about converts...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362

    Except nobody said the UK wouldn't be able to do any trade deals on its own, so you've just completely made that up. Come on man.
    Might have been a slight exaggeration. It was all doom and gloom, that the UK would be useless on its own without the EU.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824

    A communist? Really? No issues there at all. No-one died because of Lenin or Stalin, or Mao did they?
    Idiots.
    And worse - malign idiots, without the intelligence to realise how stupid they are.
    And yet people on here claim Wokeness is some benign movement, or, at worst, a silly but distracting fad. It is not. It is an attempt to corrode western self-belief from the foundations up. It is the quintessential expression of ‘cultural Marxism’. It is evil and as long as Labour is associated with it they must not and cannot win
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,808

    71% of young people didn't vote for Corbyn? Must be Tories then...
    I didn't claim they were anything except that they obviously didn't support corbyn else surely they would have gone and voted for him. I was merely objecting to Jezziah's unspoken belief that he speaks for all young people young people are I would agree less racist than earlier generations they by and large aren't socialists though.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177

    It's an interesting one - I was having just this debate with my daughter a day or 2 ago...

    - Many Jews believe that you can only be Jewish if you are maternally descended from Jews.
    - Some Jews believe that you can convert to the faith
    - Most antisemites believe that it is racial - and any parentage will do. Not sure what they believe about converts...
    I fall into category 1, although the "lineage" is likely to die with me and my brother.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    RobD said:

    You mean it isn't newsworthy, after all the comments that the UK wouldn't be able to do any trade deals on its own after leaving the EU?
    Just wait when India issues its demands for a full trade deal ! I wonder what the blue rinses from the Shires will make of lots more freedom of movement from India to the U.K. or is the xenophobia only reserved for EU nationals .
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    TOPPING said:

    Quick question. First off, cracking discussions this morning between you all - what makes PB PB.

    My question is would you want me as a member of the Labour Party.

    Old white bloke but with many GEs left in me I hope, voted Cons all my life, small state, personal responsibility kind of guy, on the right or left of centre (it's all the same), appalled by Jezza's anti-semitism (or of his presiding over a party wherein anti-semites felt emboldened), appalled also by what the Cons have turned into post 2016 and hence no longer a member.

    It may well be that you need me to vote for Lab. Would you welcome me with open arms? Or through gritted teeth? Or would you not want me at all?
    I'm not in Labour, not voting Labour and actively want them to lose, so my message to you so you probably shouldn't vote for us...

    More seriously if I was in Labour and they were offering something good now I'd be happy for you to vote for the party, I wouldn't want to offer something Tory like just to win your vote as we then may as well all stick with the Tories. I am happy* to vote for a party which has policies I don't support but that appeal to groups Labour needs say like more police which Labour offered.

    So I wouldn't be against having an offering which might have some things that appeal to you but designing a manifesto like the ones you've voted for all your life as a long term Tory voter is not something Labour should do for multiple reasons.

    Jezza is an old white man, I have relatives who are old white men. Pointing out they are the most racist group, is true and useful for the point I am making, it isn't because I hate them all or they are all bad, and bad health aside I will be old white and male.

    Admittedly I wouldn't mind keeping my youth but I can't see me changing race or gender...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824

    I'm not in Labour, not voting Labour and actively want them to lose, so my message to you so you probably shouldn't vote for us...

    More seriously if I was in Labour and they were offering something good now I'd be happy for you to vote for the party, I wouldn't want to offer something Tory like just to win your vote as we then may as well all stick with the Tories. I am happy* to vote for a party which has policies I don't support but that appeal to groups Labour needs say like more police which Labour offered.

    So I wouldn't be against having an offering which might have some things that appeal to you but designing a manifesto like the ones you've voted for all your life as a long term Tory voter is not something Labour should do for multiple reasons.

    Jezza is an old white man, I have relatives who are old white men. Pointing out they are the most racist group, is true and useful for the point I am making, it isn't because I hate them all or they are all bad, and bad health aside I will be old white and male.

    Admittedly I wouldn't mind keeping my youth but I can't see me changing race or gender...
    Please rejoin Labour. They need people with your youthful energy, intelligence and enthusiasm
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210
    TOPPING said:

    Yebbut there's a reason there are weight classes.
    Could Khan step up to the next belt up like Boris - could he replace SKS ? Could he win a GE ?

    No laughing please.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    Wrong-Daily is white. Pillock is white. Berger is BAME. Abbott is BAME. My point was that in large parts of Labour there is a hierarchy of racism where as Baddiel puts it so neatly: Jews Don't Count.

    The party promoted Anas Sarwar as the first BAME leader of a political party. Scottish Labour isn't a political party, but Sarwar isn't even the first BAME Labour leader - Ed Milliband doesn't count apparently.
    Would you expect Ed to be classed as BAME?

    Here's the definition AIUI -

    "The acronym BAME stands for Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic and is defined as all ethnic groups except White ethnic groups. It does not relate to country origin or affiliation."

    Ed is white, no?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    nico679 said:

    Just wait when India issues its demands for a full trade deal ! I wonder what the blue rinses from the Shires will make of lots more freedom of movement from India to the U.K. or is the xenophobia only reserved for EU nationals .
    I doubt freedom of movement would be part of the deal. Maybe a reciprocal relaxation on visa rules, but they are two very different things.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    test - tried to post earlier but could not.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    Floater said:

    You have to break a few (million) eggs David :wink:
    Maybe it was my childhood experiences in Germany but I have never understood why supporters of communism are thought morally superior to supporters of fascism. Each is as disgusting as the other and can match one another corpse for corpse.

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    It's an interesting one - I was having just this debate with my daughter a day or 2 ago...

    - Many Jews believe that you can only be Jewish if you are maternally descended from Jews.
    - Some Jews believe that you can convert to the faith
    - Most antisemites believe that it is racial - and any parentage will do. Not sure what they believe about converts...
    On your second point, I'm not aware of any Jews that don't accept the idea of converts. It's not a proselytising religion, though, so your third point tends to be somewhat moot in practice.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Andy_JS said:

    "Fears of a coup in France are exaggerated, but a far-right president is a real possibility

    Jean-Yves Camus"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/04/coup-france-far-right-president-marine-le-pen

    "However, there’s much to worry about when 58% of the population seemingly think the country is on the brink of collapse and Le Pen is predicted to poll up to 48% on the second ballot of the presidential election. The Harris survey, which found that 49% of respondents would support the army seizing power, comes at a time of distrust of the president, who finds himself taking the blame for what he and his predecessors have failed to achieve: stopping Islamist terrorist attacks and tackling crime."
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Pagan2 said:

    Please don't tar young people with your brush, most are sane and a great number of them also saw through corbyn and didnt vote for him 71% in fact
    Without young people Corbyn was buried, the old voted against him the young voted for him.

    Vast numbers of people as always didn't vote but there is a reason Labour did better among the young.

    Corbyn is the first political leader the younger generation has had.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Politico.com - Bad blood: Pro-Trump megadonors duke it out in Cornhusker country
    The governor of Nebraska is wading into the race to replace him, criticizing a fellow Republican millionaire and Trump backer.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/04/trump-megadonors-cornhusker-county-485306
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715

    Could Khan step up to the next belt up like Boris - could he replace SKS ? Could he win a GE ?

    No laughing please.
    Yes probably.

    He irritates me greatly but that's probably a good thing for Lab.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,808
    kinabalu said:

    Would you expect Ed to be classed as BAME?

    Here's the definition AIUI -

    "The acronym BAME stands for Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic and is defined as all ethnic groups except White ethnic groups. It does not relate to country origin or affiliation."

    Ed is white, no?
    Are arabs BAME? I believe the answer is yes.
    Logically therefore jews must be BAME as they have the same origins both are semitic (though for some reason anti semite is only used for jew haters)

    Either both are or both aren't. Try walking into a momentum meeting and telling people Palestinians are not BAME and let us know how it goes
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    Election Maps UK
    @ElectionMapsUK
    ·
    2h
    Most Common Candidate Names in the May 2021 Elections:

    David: 542
    John: 471
    Paul: 375
    Richard: 293
    Peter: 275

    Via
    @democlub

    Those names are going away. I've got 3 kids and I can't think of any of their friends or classmates with those names. In 40 years time it will all be Noah, Amelia/Emelia, Jack, Olivia, Oliver etc.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,808

    Without young people Corbyn was buried, the old voted against him the young voted for him.

    Vast numbers of people as always didn't vote but there is a reason Labour did better among the young.

    Corbyn is the first political leader the younger generation has had.
    Shame then that the majority of the younger generation didn't want him.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I fall into category 1, although the "lineage" is likely to die with me and my brother.
    In WW2 when the German army encountered Khazars in the Soviet Union, it created a certain amount of confusion for the SS & Co. Having to deal with what were considered Aryan Jews!
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    Would you expect Ed to be classed as BAME?

    Here's the definition AIUI -

    "The acronym BAME stands for Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic and is defined as all ethnic groups except White ethnic groups. It does not relate to country origin or affiliation."

    Ed is white, no?
    What does "white" mean in this context? Miliband might well share more DNA with (say) Layla Moran than with Keir Starmer. In ethnic terms, it's not necessarily useful to call him white.

    Is it purely about how much light his skin reflects, in which case definitely he is? But then why bother?

    Or is it about identifying who is and who isn't a minority, and thus needs additional protection, or where pointing out that they achieved a societal "first" becomes relevant? In that case, it gets to the crux about Labour's struggles: do Jews constitute a minority group, or do they not "count" for whatever reason?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824
    DavidL said:

    Maybe it was my childhood experiences in Germany but I have never understood why supporters of communism are thought morally superior to supporters of fascism. Each is as disgusting as the other and can match one another corpse for corpse.

    Probably because the ideals of communism are seen as morally superior to Fascism. ‘Equality for all’ is a much easier sell than ‘my nation must conquer all others’

    On a balmy day, with a beer in my hand, I could buy into elements of communism

    That said, communism probably outdoes Fascism in practice: as a hateful creed. First, in sheer numbers killed, but also in practice, if you look at the actual extremes. Pol Pot was arguably nastier and crazier than Hitler, as Pol Pot killed a third of his own people - quite deliberately (but also killed anyone else he could).

    At least Hitler was basically patriotic (I accept this is a low bar - we are comparing genocidal tyrants here)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    AlistairM said:

    Those names are going away. I've got 3 kids and I can't think of any of their friends or classmates with those names. In 40 years time it will all be Noah, Amelia/Emelia, Jack, Olivia, Oliver etc.
    My son is called David (which says all you need to know about my lack of imagination) but he was the only one in his year at school. OTOH I have 3 friends also called David out of a fairly small group at the Faculty. Its a name that has definitely gone out of fashion in a big way.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Endillion said:

    What does "white" mean in this context? Miliband might well share more DNA with (say) Layla Moran than with Keir Starmer. In ethnic terms, it's not necessarily useful to call him white.

    Is it purely about how much light his skin reflects, in which case definitely he is? But then why bother?

    Or is it about identifying who is and who isn't a minority, and thus needs additional protection, or where pointing out that they achieved a societal "first" becomes relevant? In that case, it gets to the crux about Labour's struggles: do Jews constitute a minority group, or do they not "count" for whatever reason?
    I tick "White British" on forms. I used to tick "Any other white background" but now I can't be arsed.
  • Lion_of_PenarthLion_of_Penarth Posts: 35
    edited May 2021
    As part of the Tories' cultural ambition, I predict England will win the World Cup by 2066.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Endillion said:

    Yes, the problem isn't that Labour had people with objectionable views in the party (because all parties do, and policing it totally is impossible). It's that they made one of them leader, and he then acted to make the party a "safe space" for those who shared his views - see as evidence the ECHR's findings about interference with the complaints procedure.

    The proof that his views were objectionable dates back to long before September 2015, but it only became a serious problem once he was leader of the party.
    Ohh you guys and your comedy always dancing between ohh it is actually Corbyn supporters that prove him to be racist ohh no wait nothing to do with members it is just Corbyn.

    The reason younger people and minorities supported Labour more under Corbyn and less without him is partially because of his anti racism.

    I know this will come as a shock to some wealthy old white people on here but some people see racism as discrimination against minorites...

    Some people rather than thinking opposition to the brutal occupation of Palestine is the worlds only racism actual think people some support is because of racism.

    These views are strong in the most anti racist groups, the youngest and minorities.

    Why can't they accept the definition of racism that suits old racist white people?

    Selfishness, that's what!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,012
    Jonathan said:

    Despair.

    I am voting Lib Dem in Horsham... Will that cheer you up....??
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Without young people Corbyn was buried, the old voted against him the young voted for him.

    Vast numbers of people as always didn't vote but there is a reason Labour did better among the young.

    Corbyn is the first political leader the younger generation has had.
    First?

    What about Ed Miliband? Nick Clegg? Tony Blair?

    Every "younger generation" has always had a leader or leaders politically. The only way to define Corbyn as the first is simply by wiping out any that come before him, in which case Starmer or A N Other could be a first next time.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    AlistairM said:

    Those names are going away. I've got 3 kids and I can't think of any of their friends or classmates with those names. In 40 years time it will all be Noah, Amelia/Emelia, Jack, Olivia, Oliver etc.
    Call your kid Beelzebub or Jezebel, and give him/her/it a REAL start in life in the 21st century!
This discussion has been closed.