A year on for Starmer and he has yet been able to shake the hands of a single voter – politicalbetti

BannedinnParis said:

Ah 2019
daily updates on a surge that never came ...

The good news for surge watching zero Covid Corbynites like Burgon is that they get do this all over again over the next few months, except this time with Covid rather than polls. Waiting for a third Covid surge that will (hopefully!) never come.

DavidL said:

rottenborough said:

Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.

I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.

My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.

This doesn't surprise me. You see issues with bad/missing/duplicate data when dealing with databases all the time. There always needs to be a way to correct for mistakes in the data.

As I said on the previous thread, this is my main concern with an ID cards database. The data will be imperfect, but it will be treated as gospel truth, and instead of the consequences being limited to your interaction with one bit of government, it will end up affecting everything.

LostPassword said:

felix said:

Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics

No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.

The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

In theory a good narrative should be able to be built. I can already see it - 'Brave Bozza leading us out of the EU against the Establishment (of which Sir Opposition Leader is a key part of), and saving *your* grandparents' lives'. The question is whether the voters will still care by 2024.

The big thing for me will be the EU and US's anti vaxxers. Axios believes that demand is on the wane in the US, and if levels of people willing to be vaccinated in France remain low enough (and given Mr Macron's rampant populist approach I can't see loads of nudging occurring to get them to take it), then the next few years will have France going in and out of measures outside the summer, which is the sort of thing that will stay relevant in the public's mind,

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-demand-republicans-rural-048a4a5b-5b03-4e6c-9455-da04dac0c11a.html

BannedinnParis said:

isam said:

Cameron’s LOTO Ratings

That literally shows what I just described.

The biggest negative for Cameron was against Brown.

So, having finally agreed there, what does that mean? and does Corbyn's 2017 provide any additional information.

How about:

If your positive or negative ratings are only defined by who you're up against, they may sustain against a different challenge?

Whilst Brown was PM Dave went from 21 to 42 in gross positives. If Sir Keir is lucky enough for Boris to be replaced by someone as unpopular as Gordon he might have a chance

Real life friends turn now. Play nicely

OldKingCole said:

Floater said:

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1377881480219697159

And our Governments response is to cut aid.

And hoover up vaccines for the U.K...

Simon_Peach said:

OldKingCole said:

Floater said:

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1377881480219697159

And our Governments response is to cut aid.

And hoover up vaccines for the U.K...

Are we given aid to Syria's murderous regime - I would rather hope that we weren't.

"Labour's former shadow attorney general Baroness Shami Chakrabarti has called vaccine passports a "tool of discrimination, oppression and bullying".

The member of a cross-party group of politicians warning against introducing them, tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "It's dangerous, it's discriminatory, it's counter-productive." She says: "It seems to me, and many others, that on the one hand, if this level of intrusion into our lives were to be proportionate, then probably it's not safe to open up the economy. "On the other hand, if it is safe to open up the economy, to come out of this lockdown and this crisis that we have been living under, if it is safe to do that, why create this tool of discrimination, oppression and bullying?" The former director of human rights group Liberty says: "It's one thing to have a passport to travel internationally, that is a privilege, even a luxury, but participating in local community life is a fundamental right.""

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56613219

BannedinnParis said:

So, Starmer's fate is in the hands of black swans and a change in PM.

Give up now?

If Boris becomes unpopular as Trump was by 2020 or Sarkozy was by 2012 then Starmer could narrowly win despite being a dull leader facing a more charismatic incumbent as Biden and Hollande did.

However at the moment Boris remains popular enough he would be re elected but there is some time to go until 2024

AnneJGP said:

DavidL said:

AnneJGP said:

DavidL said:

rottenborough said:

Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.

I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.

My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.

People can drop through the cracks. Many years ago, as a young woman, I applied for some post that required my GP to provide a medical certificate. I'd been in that place for some years and had had no problems accessing GP services when needed (they even did home visits in those days).

Yet when I asked for this certificate, they found that I wasn't registered with them, even though I'd arranged for transfer of records from the former place within a few weeks of moving.

Good morning, everyone.

Sure, I get that, bureaucracies are imperfect things. Which is why systems should allow those using them to take the initiative to get things done. If I had been able to make an appointment online myself I would have been vaccinated weeks ago. But in Scotland the bureaucracy always knows best. So I can't.

Yes, that's true, there should always be a failsafe way to fall back on. Any idea why the Scottish government didn't set up a parallel facility to England's? After all, it's the bureaucracy that's handling the alternative book your own system.

Two explanations come to mind.

Incompetence, in that they did not realise that the data could be bad (see also the debacle over percentage of care home residents vaccinated).

Malfeasance, in that there was a political instruction to associate vaccinations strongly with the Scottish Government by sending appointments in blue envelopes.

CorrectHorseBattery said:

For goodness sake, there is a net swing to Labour in the Red Wall, Labour has got a better leader in Scotland and Labour is no longer talked about as being disbanded.

Bearing in mind 2019 and I remember the discussion here, Starmer’s performance is good

Nowhere near enough though, and does need to be clear what he stands for, not just supporting the government but with a face like a slapped arse.

Mexicanpete said:

isam said:

BluestBlue said:

isam said:

Fernando said:

Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU.
One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.

Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.

Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear

Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes I remember it well.

I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.

You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?

So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?

Oh the horrors!

The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

It’s for the local press. Depressingly, it works.

DavidL said:

OldKingCole said:

AnneJGP said:

DavidL said:

rottenborough said:

Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.

I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.

My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.

People can drop through the cracks. Many years ago, as a young woman, I applied for some post that required my GP to provide a medical certificate. I'd been in that place for some years and had had no problems accessing GP services when needed (they even did home visits in those days).

Yet when I asked for this certificate, they found that I wasn't registered with them, even though I'd arranged for transfer of records from the former place within a few weeks of moving.

Good morning, everyone.

Strange. When I was concerned with these things it was, IIRC, far more likely that someone would be registered twice, largely because the (paper) records took so long to be transferred.

One question for Mr L; have you actually used GP services in that time.or at least in the last 10 years. If you haven't it's possible you've been removed 'on assumption' although, of course, a check ought to have been made.

Yes. I am not a frequent visitor to the GP but I had a major health scare a couple of years ago now where the service I got from my GP was outstanding, and very possibly the reason I can still bore you with my posts.

Very odd. Given the way GP's are paid, they are more likely to overstate than understate their records. Perish the thought, but I wonder if its possible that they gave up on you at the time of your scare!

DecrepiterJohnL said:

OT Binkov's Battlegrounds new video: Britain vs France. (Skip past the game plug near the start.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79EVO6J9_7Y

Has our aircraft carrier arrived in time for this?

Reading up about the current French 'Intensive War' exercises, the striking point for me is that armed force specialisms are moving back to what they always were.

Navy for an island, army for a continental country.

Just about to watch the vid. Presumably submarines are important.

Philip_Thompson said:

Mexicanpete said:

isam said:

BluestBlue said:

isam said:

Fernando said:

Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU.
One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.

Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.

Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear

Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes I remember it well.

I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.

You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?

So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?

Oh the horrors!

The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.

You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.

Mexicanpete said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Mexicanpete said:

isam said:

BluestBlue said:

isam said:

Fernando said:

Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU.
One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.

Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.

Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear

Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes I remember it well.

I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.

You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?

So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?

Oh the horrors!

The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.

You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.

Because other people don't post the same repetitive guff against Boris on every thread, regardless of the topic?

At least @isam has some hard (and underappreciated) data to back him up...

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

Checking out the pile of breeze blocks as a potential replacement for the Education Secretary ?

Sachin Tendulkar: India cricket legend in hospital with Covid-19
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-56613391

It struck me the other day that 18 months back, I was already out delivering leaflets ahead of the inevitable general election. We are now probably about a third of the way towards the next campaign kicking off. You can play the "it's been a weird year" card, but that doesn't take away from this point: the time Starmer has to make an impression has already been significantly munched into. He appears to be going backwards.

Nigelb said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

Checking out the pile of breeze blocks as a potential replacement for the Education Secretary ?

Solid, reliable, don't move around much under pressure. Its a no brainer, surely?

Time_to_Leave said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

It’s for the local press. Depressingly, it works.

Johnson is depressingly Teflon while the country slowly breaks apart.

BluestBlue said:

Mexicanpete said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Mexicanpete said:

isam said:

BluestBlue said:

isam said:

Fernando said:

Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU.
One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.

Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.

Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear

Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes I remember it well.

I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.

You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?

So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?

Oh the horrors!

The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.

You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.

Because other people don't post the same repetitive guff against Boris on every thread, regardless of the topic?

At least @isam has some hard (and underappreciated) data to back him up...

All you Boris Tories have come onto this thread with your boots on today. I better run and hide.

I think, on the whole, criticism of Johnson by those on the Labour side of the argument, or disgruntled Tories and former Remainer Tories, make a good attempt to back up their criticism of Johnson and his chums with evidence.

The main charge against Starmer, which is probably true is he is boring. Johnson on the other hand is worthy of support because he is charismatic.

Anyway, I'm gone, I'm dust!

Mexicanpete said:

BluestBlue said:

Mexicanpete said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Mexicanpete said:

isam said:

BluestBlue said:

isam said:

Fernando said:

Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU.
One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.

Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.

Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear

Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes I remember it well.

I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.

You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?

So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?

Oh the horrors!

The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.

You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.

Because other people don't post the same repetitive guff against Boris on every thread, regardless of the topic?

At least @isam has some hard (and underappreciated) data to back him up...

All you Boris Tories have come onto this thread with your boots on today. I better run and hide.

I think, on the whole, criticism of Johnson by those on the Labour side of the argument, or disgruntled Tories and former Remainer Tories, make a good attempt to back up their criticism of Johnson and his chums with evidence.

The main charge against Starmer, which is probably true is he is boring. Johnson on the other hand is worthy of support because he is charismatic.

Anyway, I'm gone, I'm dust!

If you are looking to hide I suggest you PM @Fernando

Mexicanpete said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Mexicanpete said:

isam said:

BluestBlue said:

isam said:

Fernando said:

Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU.
One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.

Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.

Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear

Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes I remember it well.

I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.

You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?

So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?

Oh the horrors!

The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.

You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.

Perhaps, but there are others on here who have their own hobby horses!

It is not so much that Starmer is crap, it is more that he is a vacuum. I follow politics fairly closely, and am by nature centre-left, but even I cannot summon any enthusiasm.

I suspect the sorting out of the Labour machine and de-lousing of the back office is essential work, but I don't see the makings of a PM.

Floater said:

https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1377923440485793797


Riiiight

Russia is scared NATO is going to invade

Laughable

Casus belli...

Nigelb said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

Checking out the pile of breeze blocks as a potential replacement for the Education Secretary ?

B and Q assistants are famously elusive, and useless when found.

BoZo may have finally found a job at his level, staring incomprehensibly at objects that he knows nothing about.

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1377933820230574085

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

felix said:

Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics

No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.

The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.

In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.

I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.

What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.

When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.

It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.

Do we have flags on fire engines yet? I remember Salmond plastering them all over the Scottish Fire Service when he first became FM.

NickPalmer said:

londonpubman said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gallowgate said:

@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.

I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.

And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring

I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position

The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool

I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day

I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.

Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.

Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.

Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?

The sequence of results tends to determine the news presentation. AIUI London and Hartlepool will come on the Thursday evening, while Scotland and many councils drift into the next day. I have no more idea than anyone else here about how it's going outside my own patch (where we expect to improve quite a bit from a very low base).

My impression is that Labour will outperform expectations a bit in Scotland - Sarwar seems to be getting some attention and the 3% figure for Alba is just right to reduce the SNP share without actually winning any seats. The Scottish Greens seem to be benefiting not from a surge in environmentalism but because it's a safe way to be pro-Indy while expressing some unease about the Sturgeon-Salmond feud. But if the SNP lose a bunch of seats to the Greens it will make the IndyRef case harder.

The West Midlands mayor result wont be out until Saturday I believe.

Tres said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

felix said:

Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics

No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.

The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.

In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.

I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.

What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.

When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.

It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.

Do we have flags on fire engines yet? I remember Salmond plastering them all over the Scottish Fire Service when he first became FM.

We have the flags that matter.

DavidL said:

Mexicanpete said:

DavidL said:

Mexicanpete said:

DavidL said:

Whilst the header makes some good points it is also the case that the last year is one in which we have paid a seriously unusual amount of attention to what politicians had to say because it has been impacting on our lives way more than normal. SKS's problem is that he seems to have remarkably little to say. I accept that in a normal year that might have been less of a problem but there was also an opportunity there that he has completely failed to grasp.

I think the opposite is true of what you have suggested.

Starmer has, until this week, been largely supportive of the Government through the pandemic, yet the RedWall opinion poll last week suggested Labour are opposing Johnson's pandemic response for the sake of wilful opposition.

So in summary Starmer is in trouble with the PB commentators (including myself) for not opposing the Government, yet to the voters that matter, he is opposing too much.

But that is because he has not had clear messages one way or the other. That is fatal and disappoints both camps.

What is Johnson's clear message otherthan three word soundbites? I think in the pandemic your critique resonates with the difficulty highlighted by Mike. Don't believe I am yet convinced by Starmer, but I think it might be too early to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I am not saying that anything should be thrown out. I am suggesting he needs to up his game and sharpen his messaging. And don't knock 3 word messages. In the right hands they are deadly: "Take back control".

The problem for the left is their fondness for splitting and becoming more niche leading to more words not less. Take sexuality and gender rights. We had gay and lesbian primarily as I grew up. By the time I had finished university this was LGBT. Soon after it seemed we had + and q added and now the we have the myriad of gender / sexuality identities. Now for Labour as the progressive side of politics they have to try and distill this for the entire population into an understandable position.

This is not the work of pithy politics, and the fine line they work is between respecting individuality - let's call it identity capitalism as everyone trades and is invested in their individual brand, and identity communism where people are treated as broad blocks in a system and expected to conform. As you will probably see I think this flips around the normal position of left and right and means that the party who feel obliged to discuss it are in a difficult position for communication.

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

State of him. Oh please rescue us.

Gallowgate said:

NickPalmer said:

londonpubman said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gallowgate said:

@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.

I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.

And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring

I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position

The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool

I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day

I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.

Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.

Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.

Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?

The sequence of results tends to determine the news presentation. AIUI London and Hartlepool will come on the Thursday evening, while Scotland and many councils drift into the next day. I have no more idea than anyone else here about how it's going outside my own patch (where we expect to improve quite a bit from a very low base).

My impression is that Labour will outperform expectations a bit in Scotland - Sarwar seems to be getting some attention and the 3% figure for Alba is just right to reduce the SNP share without actually winning any seats. The Scottish Greens seem to be benefiting not from a surge in environmentalism but because it's a safe way to be pro-Indy while expressing some unease about the Sturgeon-Salmond feud. But if the SNP lose a bunch of seats to the Greens it will make the IndyRef case harder.

The West Midlands mayor result wont be out until Saturday I believe.

The district council results are not until the Saturday either, the county council on the Thursday I think.

The London Mayoral and Assembly results will not be completed until the end of the weekend as well

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

State of him. Oh please rescue us.

Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate

I shop at B&Q.

Gallowgate said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

State of him. Oh please rescue us.

Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate

I shop at B&Q.

Many millions do

kinabalu said:

isam said:

kinabalu said:

Yes, this is why it's ludicrous to be writing off Starmer due to current mediocre ratings. There has been nothing but Covid since he got the job. No space for the opposition to attack and carve out a strong and distinctive identity. Just no appetite for it amongst the public (as opposed to winky wonky geeks like us).

Keir: "Today, I set out why this government is the worst in modern times. A bunch of total charlatans, led by a prize example of the breed, who might have lucked out on vaccines, as even the blind squirrel will eventually stumble on a nut, but other than that are an utter disaster, and what's worse do not give a flying fig so long as they can keep on shoving the moolah in the direction of their fatcat mates".

Public: "Oh shut up for fuck's sake you irritating little man. We want to hear from Boris about the roadmap."

This has been the political landscape and dynamic of the pandemic. Starmer knows this and has cut his cloth accordingly. He's ridden it out with the objective of 'do no damage' and he has succeeded. He is ready to roll now, as normal life resumes and normal politics resumes. It's game on.

That would all make sense if he hadn’t led the polls for a while, and those leads been feted as an example of his great leadership by his fans. You can’t take the bouquets and swerve the brickbats. Now, as more don’t knows make their minds up, he is disliked, not trusted and thought of as weak

We don't know, is my point. Very exceptional circumstances. If the polls are still looking bad this time next year I will start to worry. But right now I'm quite relaxed. Not exactly optimistic but neither the opposite.

Hartlepool will be interesting. If Labour can pull off a surprise win there I will start to feel positively bullish.

It will hardly be a surprise. 50/50 in a seat they hold. Are you writing the lines for labour media rounds on the night? If so can I suggest the following

- the Tories really should be doing better in London
- Labour have really held on through difficult times in Liverpool
- Labour haven't exploded in Scotland, our message is beginning to cut through

The Tory lines will inevitably include those around losing seats in the middle of a parliament, unprecedented and unpredictable times, and didn't we do well on vaccines

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gallowgate said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

State of him. Oh please rescue us.

Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate

I shop at B&Q.

Many millions do

All building professionals profess to hate B&Q. And then use them to get bit and pieces when a project gets stalled. Holding a whole site for the lack of a few concrete saw blades costs...

I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.

Andy_JS said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

londonpubman said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gallowgate said:

@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.

I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.

And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring

I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position

The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool

I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day

I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.

Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.

Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.

Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?

Local results in Wales indicate labour losing support generally

This was yesterday and labour only took 5.9% of the available 39.9%

https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1377758922862383105?s=19

Although Monmouthshire has always been the most Conservative part of Wales. It used to be in England for a while.

Monmouthshire was never in England. It was always considered part of Wales.

However, because of its size, wealth and location, it had two differences from the other twelve counties:

An independent set of Assize Courts and Quarter Sesssions, which were not under the authority of Ludlow as the four circuits were;

Two county MPs and one borough MP, like an English county and unlike the rest of Wales which had one county and one borough MP (apart from Merioneth, which had no boroughs, and Pembrokeshire, where Haverfordwest had its own MP in addition to the Pembroke Boroughs MP).

The former is why acts referred to ‘Wales and Monmouthshire’ and the latter is why it was considered not quite a Welsh county.

Malmesbury said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gallowgate said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

State of him. Oh please rescue us.

Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate

I shop at B&Q.

Many millions do

All building professionals profess to hate B&Q. And then use them to get bit and pieces when a project gets stalled. Holding a whole site for the lack of a few concrete saw blades costs...

I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.

Of course serious DIYers use Screwfix!

felix said:

I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

(May not be Felix)

Battle of Britain

Though I think Olympics 2012 may be a better answer.

Gallowgate said:

Malmesbury said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gallowgate said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

kinabalu said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

State of him. Oh please rescue us.

Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate

I shop at B&Q.

Many millions do

All building professionals profess to hate B&Q. And then use them to get bit and pieces when a project gets stalled. Holding a whole site for the lack of a few concrete saw blades costs...

I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.

Of course serious DIYers use Screwfix!

Owned by B&Q

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

Mexicanpete said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Mexicanpete said:

isam said:

BluestBlue said:

isam said:

Fernando said:

Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU.
One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.

Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.

Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear

Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Yes I remember it well.

I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.

You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?

So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?

Oh the horrors!

The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.

You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.

Perhaps, but there are others on here who have their own hobby horses!

It is not so much that Starmer is crap, it is more that he is a vacuum. I follow politics fairly closely, and am by nature centre-left, but even I cannot summon any enthusiasm.

I suspect the sorting out of the Labour machine and de-lousing of the back office is essential work, but I don't see the makings of a PM.

If Starmer gets in it won't be because of a Blair or Boris wave of enthusiasm for him, it will be because he is not Boris if Boris is unpopular by 2024.

Much as Biden got in in 2020 not with an Obama 2008 wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Trump or Hollande got in in 2012 not with a Macron 2017 style wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Sarkozy.

And that's what remains to be seen.

The success of the British Vaccine Rollout- both absolute and relative to Europe- has given the government a huge boost. But it's not that long ago that Johnson's government was slightly behind in the polls and shedding votes with each mess-up.

Will the vaccine wave carry BoJo all the way to 2024 and beyond? Or will it fade away as the fundamentals reassert themselves? Nobody knows for sure, but voters tend to be ungrateful so-and-sos, remembering the bad stuff and not the good.

Malmesbury said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

felix said:

Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics

No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.

The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.

In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.

I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.

What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.

When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.

It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.

"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.

.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.

I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.

Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....

I mean in all seriousness people like YAB don't represent Labour or Labour voters. I don't even know who she is.

Most moderate Labour voters in my experience are fairly comfortable being "British" but don't feel the need to virtue signal by waving flags around all the time (oh the irony). That doesn't mean they "hate" this country.

As the "right" likes to say: Twitter isn't Britain, but Twitter also isn't "the left".

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Lucy Powell on Sky endorsing vaccine passports for attendance at large scale events

Oh FFS. So Starmers found the fence once again after a brief check on the other side eh?

Malmesbury said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

felix said:

Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics

No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.

The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.

In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.

I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.

What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.

When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.

It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.

"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.

.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.

I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.

Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....

Not much of a problem with someone flying a flag at the time of a sports contest.

OldKingCole said:

Malmesbury said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

felix said:

Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics

No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.

The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.

In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.

I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.

What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.

When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.

It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.

"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.

.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.

I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.

Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....

Not much of a problem with someone flying a flag at the time of a sports contest.

Or at any time whatsoever.

Theuniondivvie said:

BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?

https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21

Ms Sturgeon makes a habit of doing that as well. Imitation is the most sincere type of flattery, isn't it?

Gallowgate said:

Floater said:

Gallowgate said:

Malmesbury said:

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

Philip_Thompson said:

LostPassword said:

felix said:

Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics

No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.

The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.

In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.

I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.

What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.

When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.

It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.

"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.

.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.

I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.

Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....

I mean in all seriousness people like YAB don't represent Labour or Labour voters. I don't even know who she is.

Most moderate Labour voters in my experience are fairly comfortable being "British" but don't feel the need to virtue signal by waving flags around all the time (oh the irony). That doesn't mean they "hate" this country.

As the "right" likes to say: Twitter isn't Britain, but Twitter also isn't "the left".

Moderate Labour voters are one thing the activists and some of the MP's are quite another

Activists and MPs of all parties are weirdos in the grand scheme of things, no offence to people on here...

LOL - fair point well made

MattW said:

felix said:

I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.

(May not be Felix)

Battle of Britain

Though I think Olympics 2012 may be a better answer.

Even that had the G4S business. Oh and Labour complaining about our medalists being disproportionately privately educated.