OT in the London Mayor race (6 May) Sadiq Khan's leaflet has arrived. Just a single sheet, unlike the Tories' magazine-like booklet. Sadiq claims it is a two-horse race. If the polls are right, the race is between Labour and fresh air.
Sadiq has coined a brand new slogan, a work of genius even though it has more than three words. He will be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime!
So is he planning on disbanding the Met?
Hat and coat....
The lesson of 2019 is that CCHQ would see no moral objection to falsely claiming its opponents will disband the police. Or anything else.
My comment was entirely tongue-in-cheek based on the news narrative surrounding the Met over the last fortnight.
The narrative that suggests there is a crime wave in London, and the perpetrators are serving police officers.
My comment was a reference to the Tory 2019 claim that Labour would disband the army.
Ah 2019 daily updates on a surge that never came ...
The good news for surge watching zero Covid Corbynites like Burgon is that they get do this all over again over the next few months, except this time with Covid rather than polls. Waiting for a third Covid surge that will (hopefully!) never come.
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
People can drop through the cracks. Many years ago, as a young woman, I applied for some post that required my GP to provide a medical certificate. I'd been in that place for some years and had had no problems accessing GP services when needed (they even did home visits in those days).
Yet when I asked for this certificate, they found that I wasn't registered with them, even though I'd arranged for transfer of records from the former place within a few weeks of moving.
Good morning, everyone.
Strange. When I was concerned with these things it was, IIRC, far more likely that someone would be registered twice, largely because the (paper) records took so long to be transferred.
One question for Mr L; have you actually used GP services in that time.or at least in the last 10 years. If you haven't it's possible you've been removed 'on assumption' although, of course, a check ought to have been made.
Yes. I am not a frequent visitor to the GP but I had a major health scare a couple of years ago now where the service I got from my GP was outstanding, and very possibly the reason I can still bore you with my posts.
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
This doesn't surprise me. You see issues with bad/missing/duplicate data when dealing with databases all the time. There always needs to be a way to correct for mistakes in the data.
As I said on the previous thread, this is my main concern with an ID cards database. The data will be imperfect, but it will be treated as gospel truth, and instead of the consequences being limited to your interaction with one bit of government, it will end up affecting everything.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
In theory a good narrative should be able to be built. I can already see it - 'Brave Bozza leading us out of the EU against the Establishment (of which Sir Opposition Leader is a key part of), and saving *your* grandparents' lives'. The question is whether the voters will still care by 2024.
The big thing for me will be the EU and US's anti vaxxers. Axios believes that demand is on the wane in the US, and if levels of people willing to be vaccinated in France remain low enough (and given Mr Macron's rampant populist approach I can't see loads of nudging occurring to get them to take it), then the next few years will have France going in and out of measures outside the summer, which is the sort of thing that will stay relevant in the public's mind,
The biggest negative for Cameron was against Brown.
So, having finally agreed there, what does that mean? and does Corbyn's 2017 provide any additional information.
How about:
If your positive or negative ratings are only defined by who you're up against, they may sustain against a different challenge?
Whilst Brown was PM Dave went from 21 to 42 in gross positives. If Sir Keir is lucky enough for Boris to be replaced by someone as unpopular as Gordon he might have a chance
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
People can drop through the cracks. Many years ago, as a young woman, I applied for some post that required my GP to provide a medical certificate. I'd been in that place for some years and had had no problems accessing GP services when needed (they even did home visits in those days).
Yet when I asked for this certificate, they found that I wasn't registered with them, even though I'd arranged for transfer of records from the former place within a few weeks of moving.
Good morning, everyone.
Sure, I get that, bureaucracies are imperfect things. Which is why systems should allow those using them to take the initiative to get things done. If I had been able to make an appointment online myself I would have been vaccinated weeks ago. But in Scotland the bureaucracy always knows best. So I can't.
Yes, that's true, there should always be a failsafe way to fall back on. Any idea why the Scottish government didn't set up a parallel facility to England's? After all, it's the bureaucracy that's handling the alternative book your own system.
@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.
I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.
And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring
I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position
The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool
I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day
I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.
Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.
Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.
Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?
Local results in Wales indicate labour losing support generally
This was yesterday and labour only took 5.9% of the available 39.9%
"Labour's former shadow attorney general Baroness Shami Chakrabarti has called vaccine passports a "tool of discrimination, oppression and bullying".
The member of a cross-party group of politicians warning against introducing them, tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "It's dangerous, it's discriminatory, it's counter-productive." She says: "It seems to me, and many others, that on the one hand, if this level of intrusion into our lives were to be proportionate, then probably it's not safe to open up the economy. "On the other hand, if it is safe to open up the economy, to come out of this lockdown and this crisis that we have been living under, if it is safe to do that, why create this tool of discrimination, oppression and bullying?" The former director of human rights group Liberty says: "It's one thing to have a passport to travel internationally, that is a privilege, even a luxury, but participating in local community life is a fundamental right.""
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
The tories have an approach which identifies one country Labour is way too focused on the ethnic minority vote/the m/c educated vote/the urban w/c in big cities vote/the transgender vote/the gay vote.... It seems to think these are groups who have no alternative place to vote. In fact they are often contradictory in their beliefs and Labour cannot at the moment square the varies circles surrounding them.
So, Starmer's fate is in the hands of black swans and a change in PM.
Give up now?
If Boris becomes unpopular as Trump was by 2020 or Sarkozy was by 2012 then Starmer could narrowly win despite being a dull leader facing a more charismatic incumbent as Biden and Hollande did.
However at the moment Boris remains popular enough he would be re elected but there is some time to go until 2024
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
This doesn't surprise me. You see issues with bad/missing/duplicate data when dealing with databases all the time. There always needs to be a way to correct for mistakes in the data.
As I said on the previous thread, this is my main concern with an ID cards database. The data will be imperfect, but it will be treated as gospel truth, and instead of the consequences being limited to your interaction with one bit of government, it will end up affecting everything.
The issue with the ID card scheme is the desire by Governments to merge datasets together and then allow people access to more than could be sensible justified.
An ID card by itself isn't a problem but that shouldn't allow anyone more access to the absolute minimum set of data required for the job they do - and the Government has neither promised that or provided any reason to belief that scope creep wouldn't immediate start to occur.
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
People can drop through the cracks. Many years ago, as a young woman, I applied for some post that required my GP to provide a medical certificate. I'd been in that place for some years and had had no problems accessing GP services when needed (they even did home visits in those days).
Yet when I asked for this certificate, they found that I wasn't registered with them, even though I'd arranged for transfer of records from the former place within a few weeks of moving.
Good morning, everyone.
Sure, I get that, bureaucracies are imperfect things. Which is why systems should allow those using them to take the initiative to get things done. If I had been able to make an appointment online myself I would have been vaccinated weeks ago. But in Scotland the bureaucracy always knows best. So I can't.
Yes, that's true, there should always be a failsafe way to fall back on. Any idea why the Scottish government didn't set up a parallel facility to England's? After all, it's the bureaucracy that's handling the alternative book your own system.
Two explanations come to mind.
Incompetence, in that they did not realise that the data could be bad (see also the debacle over percentage of care home residents vaccinated).
Malfeasance, in that there was a political instruction to associate vaccinations strongly with the Scottish Government by sending appointments in blue envelopes.
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
No I’m not Richard Burgon.
I don’t think I am a one trick pony, but if I were, so what?
As long as your one trick was the mane event it wouldn’t matter, but unfortunately most one trick ponies tail off.
For goodness sake, there is a net swing to Labour in the Red Wall, Labour has got a better leader in Scotland and Labour is no longer talked about as being disbanded.
Bearing in mind 2019 and I remember the discussion here, Starmer’s performance is good
Nowhere near enough though, and does need to be clear what he stands for, not just supporting the government but with a face like a slapped arse.
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
had same recently re my wife's results of tests etc , GP had none of them and finally found they were sending them to a practice in Barrhead. They fixed it in the end but never got round to telling me how it could have happened
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.
I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.
And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring
I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position
The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool
I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day
I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.
Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.
Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.
Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?
Local results in Wales indicate labour losing support generally
This was yesterday and labour only took 5.9% of the available 39.9%
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Are we given aid to Syria's murderous regime - I would rather hope that we weren't.
It depends on the form of aid, but humanitarian aid should be independent of politics, even given freely to enemies. Not least it is a way of winning them over.
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
People can drop through the cracks. Many years ago, as a young woman, I applied for some post that required my GP to provide a medical certificate. I'd been in that place for some years and had had no problems accessing GP services when needed (they even did home visits in those days).
Yet when I asked for this certificate, they found that I wasn't registered with them, even though I'd arranged for transfer of records from the former place within a few weeks of moving.
Good morning, everyone.
Strange. When I was concerned with these things it was, IIRC, far more likely that someone would be registered twice, largely because the (paper) records took so long to be transferred.
One question for Mr L; have you actually used GP services in that time.or at least in the last 10 years. If you haven't it's possible you've been removed 'on assumption' although, of course, a check ought to have been made.
Yes. I am not a frequent visitor to the GP but I had a major health scare a couple of years ago now where the service I got from my GP was outstanding, and very possibly the reason I can still bore you with my posts.
Very odd. Given the way GP's are paid, they are more likely to overstate than understate their records. Perish the thought, but I wonder if its possible that they gave up on you at the time of your scare!
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
Has our aircraft carrier arrived in time for this?
Reading up about the current French 'Intensive War' exercises, the striking point for me is that armed force specialisms are moving back to what they always were.
Navy for an island, army for a continental country.
Just about to watch the vid. Presumably submarines are important.
Anecdata: just out of curiosity I thought I would check my local mass vaccine centre availability. You can walk in in an hour's time and have the jab if over 50 or otherwise eligible.
I have received an email reply from the Scottish vaccination service. They have never heard of me. Not on their system apparently. This is a little surprising since I have been at my current address for more than 30 years, with the same GP practice for 45 years and they have heard of my wife.
My details have been passed to the local NHS Board, apparently, who may contact me in a week failing which I have a telephone number I can call. What I would give for a system like you have locally. This is pathetic.
People can drop through the cracks. Many years ago, as a young woman, I applied for some post that required my GP to provide a medical certificate. I'd been in that place for some years and had had no problems accessing GP services when needed (they even did home visits in those days).
Yet when I asked for this certificate, they found that I wasn't registered with them, even though I'd arranged for transfer of records from the former place within a few weeks of moving.
Good morning, everyone.
Strange. When I was concerned with these things it was, IIRC, far more likely that someone would be registered twice, largely because the (paper) records took so long to be transferred.
One question for Mr L; have you actually used GP services in that time.or at least in the last 10 years. If you haven't it's possible you've been removed 'on assumption' although, of course, a check ought to have been made.
Yes. I am not a frequent visitor to the GP but I had a major health scare a couple of years ago now where the service I got from my GP was outstanding, and very possibly the reason I can still bore you with my posts.
Very odd. Given the way GP's are paid, they are more likely to overstate than understate their records. Perish the thought, but I wonder if its possible that they gave upon you at the time of your scare!
The Health Board, will have had to combine registration data from different GP practices. There will have been some mistake in David's record so that it was rejected during this process - perhaps his date of birth was entered in a different format, something daft like that - and no-one had the time or motivation to check the process closely enough to catch the missing records.
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
OT in the London Mayor race (6 May) Sadiq Khan's leaflet has arrived. Just a single sheet, unlike the Tories' magazine-like booklet. Sadiq claims it is a two-horse race. If the polls are right, the race is between Labour and fresh air.
Sadiq has coined a brand new slogan, a work of genius even though it has more than three words. He will be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime!
So is he planning on disbanding the Met?
Hat and coat....
The lesson of 2019 is that CCHQ would see no moral objection to falsely claiming its opponents will disband the police. Or anything else.
My comment was entirely tongue-in-cheek based on the news narrative surrounding the Met over the last fortnight.
The narrative that suggests there is a crime wave in London, and the perpetrators are serving police officers.
My comment was a reference to the Tory 2019 claim that Labour would disband the army.
Fair point. Lucky everyone voted for Major General Johnson, new nukes on their way too!
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Because other people don't post the same repetitive guff against Boris on every thread, regardless of the topic?
At least @isam has some hard (and underappreciated) data to back him up...
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
It struck me the other day that 18 months back, I was already out delivering leaflets ahead of the inevitable general election. We are now probably about a third of the way towards the next campaign kicking off. You can play the "it's been a weird year" card, but that doesn't take away from this point: the time Starmer has to make an impression has already been significantly munched into. He appears to be going backwards.
@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.
I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.
And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring
I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position
The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool
I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day
I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.
Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.
Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.
Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?
Local results in Wales indicate labour losing support generally
This was yesterday and labour only took 5.9% of the available 39.9%
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
It struck me the other day that 18 months back, I was already out delivering leaflets ahead of the inevitable general election. We are now probably about a third of the way towards the next campaign kicking off. You can play the "it's been a weird year" card, but that doesn't take away from this point: the time Starmer has to make an impression has already been significantly munched into. He appears to be going backwards.
He has conceded Brexit and the pandemic to the Conservatives, and they have conceded on the Magic Money Tree to him. And his attempts on the culture wars have been abject failures. What else is there?
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Because other people don't post the same repetitive guff against Boris on every thread, regardless of the topic?
At least @isam has some hard (and underappreciated) data to back him up...
All you Boris Tories have come onto this thread with your boots on today. I better run and hide.
I think, on the whole, criticism of Johnson by those on the Labour side of the argument, or disgruntled Tories and former Remainer Tories, make a good attempt to back up their criticism of Johnson and his chums with evidence.
The main charge against Starmer, which is probably true is he is boring. Johnson on the other hand is worthy of support because he is charismatic.
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Because other people don't post the same repetitive guff against Boris on every thread, regardless of the topic?
At least @isam has some hard (and underappreciated) data to back him up...
All you Boris Tories have come onto this thread with your boots on today. I better run and hide.
I think, on the whole, criticism of Johnson by those on the Labour side of the argument, or disgruntled Tories and former Remainer Tories, make a good attempt to back up their criticism of Johnson and his chums with evidence.
The main charge against Starmer, which is probably true is he is boring. Johnson on the other hand is worthy of support because he is charismatic.
Anyway, I'm gone, I'm dust!
If you are looking to hide I suggest you PM @Fernando
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Perhaps, but there are others on here who have their own hobby horses!
It is not so much that Starmer is crap, it is more that he is a vacuum. I follow politics fairly closely, and am by nature centre-left, but even I cannot summon any enthusiasm.
I suspect the sorting out of the Labour machine and de-lousing of the back office is essential work, but I don't see the makings of a PM.
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Only the thread headers implying Starmer is great or underestimated.
@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.
I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.
And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring
I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position
The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool
I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day
I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.
Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.
Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.
Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?
The sequence of results tends to determine the news presentation. AIUI London and Hartlepool will come on the Thursday evening, while Scotland and many councils drift into the next day. I have no more idea than anyone else here about how it's going outside my own patch (where we expect to improve quite a bit from a very low base).
My impression is that Labour will outperform expectations a bit in Scotland - Sarwar seems to be getting some attention and the 3% figure for Alba is just right to reduce the SNP share without actually winning any seats. The Scottish Greens seem to be benefiting not from a surge in environmentalism but because it's a safe way to be pro-Indy while expressing some unease about the Sturgeon-Salmond feud. But if the SNP lose a bunch of seats to the Greens it will make the IndyRef case harder.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
Do we have flags on fire engines yet? I remember Salmond plastering them all over the Scottish Fire Service when he first became FM.
@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.
I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.
And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring
I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position
The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool
I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day
I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.
Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.
Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.
Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?
The sequence of results tends to determine the news presentation. AIUI London and Hartlepool will come on the Thursday evening, while Scotland and many councils drift into the next day. I have no more idea than anyone else here about how it's going outside my own patch (where we expect to improve quite a bit from a very low base).
My impression is that Labour will outperform expectations a bit in Scotland - Sarwar seems to be getting some attention and the 3% figure for Alba is just right to reduce the SNP share without actually winning any seats. The Scottish Greens seem to be benefiting not from a surge in environmentalism but because it's a safe way to be pro-Indy while expressing some unease about the Sturgeon-Salmond feud. But if the SNP lose a bunch of seats to the Greens it will make the IndyRef case harder.
The West Midlands mayor result wont be out until Saturday I believe.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
Sounds good to me! Go for it! Let's see how it works. 👍➡
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
Do we have flags on fire engines yet? I remember Salmond plastering them all over the Scottish Fire Service when he first became FM.
Yes, this is why it's ludicrous to be writing off Starmer due to current mediocre ratings. There has been nothing but Covid since he got the job. No space for the opposition to attack and carve out a strong and distinctive identity. Just no appetite for it amongst the public (as opposed to winky wonky geeks like us).
Keir: "Today, I set out why this government is the worst in modern times. A bunch of total charlatans, led by a prize example of the breed, who might have lucked out on vaccines, as even the blind squirrel will eventually stumble on a nut, but other than that are an utter disaster, and what's worse do not give a flying fig so long as they can keep on shoving the moolah in the direction of their fatcat mates".
Public: "Oh shut up for fuck's sake you irritating little man. We want to hear from Boris about the roadmap."
This has been the political landscape and dynamic of the pandemic. Starmer knows this and has cut his cloth accordingly. He's ridden it out with the objective of 'do no damage' and he has succeeded. He is ready to roll now, as normal life resumes and normal politics resumes. It's game on.
That would all make sense if he hadn’t led the polls for a while, and those leads been feted as an example of his great leadership by his fans. You can’t take the bouquets and swerve the brickbats. Now, as more don’t knows make their minds up, he is disliked, not trusted and thought of as weak
We don't know, is my point. Very exceptional circumstances. If the polls are still looking bad this time next year I will start to worry. But right now I'm quite relaxed. Not exactly optimistic but neither the opposite.
Hartlepool will be interesting. If Labour can pull off a surprise win there I will start to feel positively bullish.
Whilst the header makes some good points it is also the case that the last year is one in which we have paid a seriously unusual amount of attention to what politicians had to say because it has been impacting on our lives way more than normal. SKS's problem is that he seems to have remarkably little to say. I accept that in a normal year that might have been less of a problem but there was also an opportunity there that he has completely failed to grasp.
I think the opposite is true of what you have suggested.
Starmer has, until this week, been largely supportive of the Government through the pandemic, yet the RedWall opinion poll last week suggested Labour are opposing Johnson's pandemic response for the sake of wilful opposition.
So in summary Starmer is in trouble with the PB commentators (including myself) for not opposing the Government, yet to the voters that matter, he is opposing too much.
But that is because he has not had clear messages one way or the other. That is fatal and disappoints both camps.
What is Johnson's clear message otherthan three word soundbites? I think in the pandemic your critique resonates with the difficulty highlighted by Mike. Don't believe I am yet convinced by Starmer, but I think it might be too early to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I am not saying that anything should be thrown out. I am suggesting he needs to up his game and sharpen his messaging. And don't knock 3 word messages. In the right hands they are deadly: "Take back control".
The problem for the left is their fondness for splitting and becoming more niche leading to more words not less. Take sexuality and gender rights. We had gay and lesbian primarily as I grew up. By the time I had finished university this was LGBT. Soon after it seemed we had + and q added and now the we have the myriad of gender / sexuality identities. Now for Labour as the progressive side of politics they have to try and distill this for the entire population into an understandable position.
This is not the work of pithy politics, and the fine line they work is between respecting individuality - let's call it identity capitalism as everyone trades and is invested in their individual brand, and identity communism where people are treated as broad blocks in a system and expected to conform. As you will probably see I think this flips around the normal position of left and right and means that the party who feel obliged to discuss it are in a difficult position for communication.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.
I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.
And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring
I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position
The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool
I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day
I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.
Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.
Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.
Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?
The sequence of results tends to determine the news presentation. AIUI London and Hartlepool will come on the Thursday evening, while Scotland and many councils drift into the next day. I have no more idea than anyone else here about how it's going outside my own patch (where we expect to improve quite a bit from a very low base).
My impression is that Labour will outperform expectations a bit in Scotland - Sarwar seems to be getting some attention and the 3% figure for Alba is just right to reduce the SNP share without actually winning any seats. The Scottish Greens seem to be benefiting not from a surge in environmentalism but because it's a safe way to be pro-Indy while expressing some unease about the Sturgeon-Salmond feud. But if the SNP lose a bunch of seats to the Greens it will make the IndyRef case harder.
The West Midlands mayor result wont be out until Saturday I believe.
The district council results are not until the Saturday either, the county council on the Thursday I think.
The London Mayoral and Assembly results will not be completed until the end of the weekend as well
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
Whilst the header makes some good points it is also the case that the last year is one in which we have paid a seriously unusual amount of attention to what politicians had to say because it has been impacting on our lives way more than normal. SKS's problem is that he seems to have remarkably little to say. I accept that in a normal year that might have been less of a problem but there was also an opportunity there that he has completely failed to grasp.
I think he has been risk averse and taking too much notice of the polls showing big support for restrictions.
I think that’s a very good observation.
Fundamentally Sir Keir is very risk adverse. That’s not really the right attribute for a leader of the opposition. It makes him dependent on the government screwing up rather than being able to drive the political narrative
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Perhaps, but there are others on here who have their own hobby horses!
It is not so much that Starmer is crap, it is more that he is a vacuum. I follow politics fairly closely, and am by nature centre-left, but even I cannot summon any enthusiasm.
I suspect the sorting out of the Labour machine and de-lousing of the back office is essential work, but I don't see the makings of a PM.
If Starmer gets in it won't be because of a Blair or Boris wave of enthusiasm for him, it will be because he is not Boris if Boris is unpopular by 2024.
Much as Biden got in in 2020 not with an Obama 2008 wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Trump or Hollande got in in 2012 not with a Macron 2017 style wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Sarkozy.
Yes, this is why it's ludicrous to be writing off Starmer due to current mediocre ratings. There has been nothing but Covid since he got the job. No space for the opposition to attack and carve out a strong and distinctive identity. Just no appetite for it amongst the public (as opposed to winky wonky geeks like us).
Keir: "Today, I set out why this government is the worst in modern times. A bunch of total charlatans, led by a prize example of the breed, who might have lucked out on vaccines, as even the blind squirrel will eventually stumble on a nut, but other than that are an utter disaster, and what's worse do not give a flying fig so long as they can keep on shoving the moolah in the direction of their fatcat mates".
Public: "Oh shut up for fuck's sake you irritating little man. We want to hear from Boris about the roadmap."
This has been the political landscape and dynamic of the pandemic. Starmer knows this and has cut his cloth accordingly. He's ridden it out with the objective of 'do no damage' and he has succeeded. He is ready to roll now, as normal life resumes and normal politics resumes. It's game on.
That would all make sense if he hadn’t led the polls for a while, and those leads been feted as an example of his great leadership by his fans. You can’t take the bouquets and swerve the brickbats. Now, as more don’t knows make their minds up, he is disliked, not trusted and thought of as weak
We don't know, is my point. Very exceptional circumstances. If the polls are still looking bad this time next year I will start to worry. But right now I'm quite relaxed. Not exactly optimistic but neither the opposite.
Hartlepool will be interesting. If Labour can pull off a surprise win there I will start to feel positively bullish.
It will hardly be a surprise. 50/50 in a seat they hold. Are you writing the lines for labour media rounds on the night? If so can I suggest the following
- the Tories really should be doing better in London - Labour have really held on through difficult times in Liverpool - Labour haven't exploded in Scotland, our message is beginning to cut through
The Tory lines will inevitably include those around losing seats in the middle of a parliament, unprecedented and unpredictable times, and didn't we do well on vaccines
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
I shop at B&Q.
Many millions do
At the moment we don't really have a choice. It's either B&Q or Tesco.
Starmer is Meh. That is his primary problem - I can't be roused in either support or damnation as I can other politicians. What makes it worse for him is that I honestly don't think he actually cares about half the stuff he tries to take a position on. He comes across simultaneously as wooden and plastic, a political piece of MFI chipboard furniture with a shiny veneer stuck over to make it look nice.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
I shop at B&Q.
Many millions do
All building professionals profess to hate B&Q. And then use them to get bit and pieces when a project gets stalled. Holding a whole site for the lack of a few concrete saw blades costs...
I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
I shop at B&Q.
Many millions do
At the moment we don't really have a choice. It's either B&Q or Tesco.
Fair comment but even before covid B & Q was a recognised brand and many millions shop there
@BannedInnParis that graph shows that Starmer's current rating isn't historically bad at all for a LOTO and is bound to go up again at some point.
I don't personally think Keir is doing a *great* job but I don't think he's doing a *bad* job.
And your last sentence affirms that he is uninspiring
I do not have an issue with Starmer and he is in an invidious position
The danger for Starmer is that in little under 5 weeks Labour may have underperformed in Scotland, Wales, and England and lost Hartlepool
I am not predicting it, but it is not inconceivable with London being labour's only success on the day
I think LAB will hold Hartlepool.
Yes LAB will do well in London and as well as Sadiq, may make further progress on the Greater London Authority.
Overall the pressure for the local elections is on LAB however, not CON.
Can LAB come back in Scotland (not likely). What about Wales (I think they might do better than expected). And in England (where in fact most of the Westminster marginals are). Will voters trust LAB to run their local councils?
Local results in Wales indicate labour losing support generally
This was yesterday and labour only took 5.9% of the available 39.9%
Although Monmouthshire has always been the most Conservative part of Wales. It used to be in England for a while.
Monmouthshire was never in England. It was always considered part of Wales.
However, because of its size, wealth and location, it had two differences from the other twelve counties:
An independent set of Assize Courts and Quarter Sesssions, which were not under the authority of Ludlow as the four circuits were;
Two county MPs and one borough MP, like an English county and unlike the rest of Wales which had one county and one borough MP (apart from Merioneth, which had no boroughs, and Pembrokeshire, where Haverfordwest had its own MP in addition to the Pembroke Boroughs MP).
The former is why acts referred to ‘Wales and Monmouthshire’ and the latter is why it was considered not quite a Welsh county.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
I shop at B&Q.
Many millions do
All building professionals profess to hate B&Q. And then use them to get bit and pieces when a project gets stalled. Holding a whole site for the lack of a few concrete saw blades costs...
I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.
Starmer is Meh. That is his primary problem - I can't be roused in either support or damnation as I can other politicians. What makes it worse for him is that I honestly don't think he actually cares about half the stuff he tries to take a position on. He comes across simultaneously as wooden and plastic, a political piece of MFI chipboard furniture with a shiny veneer stuck over to make it look nice.
He could do with someone like Jess Phillips as No 2.Bit like Blair, admittedly a better campaigner had Prescott to be the bruiser.
I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
(May not be Felix)
Battle of Britain
Though I think Olympics 2012 may be a better answer.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
I shop at B&Q.
Many millions do
All building professionals profess to hate B&Q. And then use them to get bit and pieces when a project gets stalled. Holding a whole site for the lack of a few concrete saw blades costs...
I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
Aren’t you missing the obvious. He was doing quite well in 2020. However, since then Johnson has been shown to have made the correct decisions on vaccines. Starmer can’t escape from the popular judgement that he would have left us in the same position as the EU. One leader was right. The other was wrong. We rarely have such a clear division.
Good spot. Starmer was leading in the ratings and Labour led the polls - but, now more people know who he is, his ratings have fallen off a cliff.
Look at these YouGovs - since he took over he hasn’t got any more positives, and all the don’t knows have gone negative, it is almost strangely ridiculously clear
Excellent charts. Remember when we used to be told that Starmer's high initial Don't Knows were a good thing, because they would inevitably turn into positives once people got to know him? That, er, hasn't happened at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes I remember it well.
I am not a fan of Sir Keir, but what I don’t get is how people who are fans of his think these ratings, and all the others, are good. They find solace in the fact Corbyn’s were worse, but ignore the fact that Milibands were the same.
You are something of a one-trick pony. Most of your posts solely focus on anti-Starmer statistics. Are you perchance, Richard Burgon?
So he's writing about Starmer in a thread header about Starmer?
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
You know that below every thread header, irrespective of subject therein contains a "Starmer is crap" post from Isam.
Perhaps, but there are others on here who have their own hobby horses!
It is not so much that Starmer is crap, it is more that he is a vacuum. I follow politics fairly closely, and am by nature centre-left, but even I cannot summon any enthusiasm.
I suspect the sorting out of the Labour machine and de-lousing of the back office is essential work, but I don't see the makings of a PM.
If Starmer gets in it won't be because of a Blair or Boris wave of enthusiasm for him, it will be because he is not Boris if Boris is unpopular by 2024.
Much as Biden got in in 2020 not with an Obama 2008 wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Trump or Hollande got in in 2012 not with a Macron 2017 style wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Sarkozy.
And that's what remains to be seen.
The success of the British Vaccine Rollout- both absolute and relative to Europe- has given the government a huge boost. But it's not that long ago that Johnson's government was slightly behind in the polls and shedding votes with each mess-up.
Will the vaccine wave carry BoJo all the way to 2024 and beyond? Or will it fade away as the fundamentals reassert themselves? Nobody knows for sure, but voters tend to be ungrateful so-and-sos, remembering the bad stuff and not the good.
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Actually he was interviewed in B & Q, and those who mock Boris are missing the point that he is popular with ordinary voters, who most likely shop at B & Q , and this is precisely why he clicks with the electorate
I shop at B&Q.
Many millions do
All building professionals profess to hate B&Q. And then use them to get bit and pieces when a project gets stalled. Holding a whole site for the lack of a few concrete saw blades costs...
I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.
Of course serious DIYers use Screwfix!
Owned by B&Q
Screwfix is just the other cheek of the same arse. They all are. Same range of products plus some shite own brand stuff.
B&Q (and the others) realised that the pro market was worthwhile - hence they carry a certain range of the real brands.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
I mean in all seriousness people like YAB don't represent Labour or Labour voters. I don't even know who she is.
Most moderate Labour voters in my experience are fairly comfortable being "British" but don't feel the need to virtue signal by waving flags around all the time (oh the irony). That doesn't mean they "hate" this country.
As the "right" likes to say: Twitter isn't Britain, but Twitter also isn't "the left".
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
I mean in all seriousness people like YAB don't represent Labour or Labour voters. I don't even know who she is.
Most moderate Labour voters in my experience are fairly comfortable being "British" but don't feel the need to virtue signal by waving flags around all the time (oh the irony). That doesn't mean they "hate" this country.
As the "right" likes to say: Twitter isn't Britain, but Twitter also isn't "the left".
Moderate Labour voters are one thing the activists and some of the MP's are quite another
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
Not much of a problem with someone flying a flag at the time of a sports contest.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
Not much of a problem with someone flying a flag at the time of a sports contest.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
I mean in all seriousness people like YAB don't represent Labour or Labour voters. I don't even know who she is.
Most moderate Labour voters in my experience are fairly comfortable being "British" but don't feel the need to virtue signal by waving flags around all the time (oh the irony). That doesn't mean they "hate" this country.
As the "right" likes to say: Twitter isn't Britain, but Twitter also isn't "the left".
Moderate Labour voters are one thing the activists and some of the MP's are quite another
Activists and MPs of all parties are weirdos in the grand scheme of things, no offence to people on here...
BJ still governing in campaign mode. SKS would look a bit of a berk doing this (as does BJ but that’s his natural habitat) but surely there’s some less berkish equivalent?
Starmer is Meh. That is his primary problem - I can't be roused in either support or damnation as I can other politicians. What makes it worse for him is that I honestly don't think he actually cares about half the stuff he tries to take a position on. He comes across simultaneously as wooden and plastic, a political piece of MFI chipboard furniture with a shiny veneer stuck over to make it look nice.
Labour's real problem remains it's focus on identity politics
No, Labour's problem is that the Tories have played identity politics better, by winning support from voters who identify as English and patriotic, and creating a sense of distrust of Labour's patriotic credentials. Johnson is all identity politics all the time - but he has a larger identity group supporting him.
The vaccine success is also significant, as others have pointed out. I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
If so many Labour supporters didn't hate their own country so much then they wouldn't be abandoning being English and patriotic to the Tories.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
I don't think Labour supporters do hate their own country at all, but that argument is for another day.
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
When the very presence of a flag sends some into an apoplectic rage, it doesn't take much to convince voters that those reacting with fury hate their own country.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
"The left" should turn the Union Jack into a "woke" symbol for the primary reason that it would wind "the right" up something awful. Would be great craic.
.. and that sentence encapsulates the problem nicely.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
I mean in all seriousness people like YAB don't represent Labour or Labour voters. I don't even know who she is.
Most moderate Labour voters in my experience are fairly comfortable being "British" but don't feel the need to virtue signal by waving flags around all the time (oh the irony). That doesn't mean they "hate" this country.
As the "right" likes to say: Twitter isn't Britain, but Twitter also isn't "the left".
Moderate Labour voters are one thing the activists and some of the MP's are quite another
Activists and MPs of all parties are weirdos in the grand scheme of things, no offence to people on here...
I'm struggling to think of when a British government last did something as well. It's often said that the electorate doesn't do gratitude, but I wonder whether this might be an exception because the success is so unusually clear.
(May not be Felix)
Battle of Britain
Though I think Olympics 2012 may be a better answer.
Even that had the G4S business. Oh and Labour complaining about our medalists being disproportionately privately educated.
Comments
As I said on the previous thread, this is my main concern with an ID cards database. The data will be imperfect, but it will be treated as gospel truth, and instead of the consequences being limited to your interaction with one bit of government, it will end up affecting everything.
https://twitter.com/mikegove12/status/1377900825641693187?s=21
The big thing for me will be the EU and US's anti vaxxers. Axios believes that demand is on the wane in the US, and if levels of people willing to be vaccinated in France remain low enough (and given Mr Macron's rampant populist approach I can't see loads of nudging occurring to get them to take it), then the next few years will have France going in and out of measures outside the summer, which is the sort of thing that will stay relevant in the public's mind,
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-demand-republicans-rural-048a4a5b-5b03-4e6c-9455-da04dac0c11a.html
Give up now?
Real life friends turn now. Play nicely
This was yesterday and labour only took 5.9% of the available 39.9%
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1377758922862383105?s=19
The member of a cross-party group of politicians warning against introducing them, tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "It's dangerous, it's discriminatory, it's counter-productive." She says: "It seems to me, and many others, that on the one hand, if this level of intrusion into our lives were to be proportionate, then probably it's not safe to open up the economy. "On the other hand, if it is safe to open up the economy, to come out of this lockdown and this crisis that we have been living under, if it is safe to do that, why create this tool of discrimination, oppression and bullying?" The former director of human rights group Liberty says: "It's one thing to have a passport to travel internationally, that is a privilege, even a luxury, but participating in local community life is a fundamental right.""
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56613219
However at the moment Boris remains popular enough he would be re elected but there is some time to go until 2024
An ID card by itself isn't a problem but that shouldn't allow anyone more access to the absolute minimum set of data required for the job they do - and the Government has neither promised that or provided any reason to belief that scope creep wouldn't immediate start to occur.
Incompetence, in that they did not realise that the data could be bad (see also the debacle over percentage of care home residents vaccinated).
Malfeasance, in that there was a political instruction to associate vaccinations strongly with the Scottish Government by sending appointments in blue envelopes.
Oh the horrors!
The issue with Starmer is not that the public don't know him, but the more they've seen of him the less they're impressed.
In any other nation being of your own nation and patriotic is not newsworthy. In America it is "motherhood and apple pie" behaviour. Only the English left find the concept of actually liking your own country to be repellant.
Reading up about the current French 'Intensive War' exercises, the striking point for me is that armed force specialisms are moving back to what they always were.
Navy for an island, army for a continental country.
Just about to watch the vid. Presumably submarines are important.
At least @isam has some hard (and underappreciated) data to back him up...
What is important is that the Tories have convinced the voters that they do. Labour's problem isn't so much that they've played identity politics, but that they've played identity politics badly, and the Tories have played identity politics with much more success.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-56613391
Yes but here is another one
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1372690114753744899?s=19
I think, on the whole, criticism of Johnson by those on the Labour side of the argument, or disgruntled Tories and former Remainer Tories, make a good attempt to back up their criticism of Johnson and his chums with evidence.
The main charge against Starmer, which is probably true is he is boring. Johnson on the other hand is worthy of support because he is charismatic.
Anyway, I'm gone, I'm dust!
Riiiight
Russia is scared NATO is going to invade
Laughable
It is not so much that Starmer is crap, it is more that he is a vacuum. I follow politics fairly closely, and am by nature centre-left, but even I cannot summon any enthusiasm.
I suspect the sorting out of the Labour machine and de-lousing of the back office is essential work, but I don't see the makings of a PM.
Oh I see.
My impression is that Labour will outperform expectations a bit in Scotland - Sarwar seems to be getting some attention and the 3% figure for Alba is just right to reduce the SNP share without actually winning any seats. The Scottish Greens seem to be benefiting not from a surge in environmentalism but because it's a safe way to be pro-Indy while expressing some unease about the Sturgeon-Salmond feud. But if the SNP lose a bunch of seats to the Greens it will make the IndyRef case harder.
BoZo may have finally found a job at his level, staring incomprehensibly at objects that he knows nothing about.
It's not even a new concept invented by the Tories, that notorious Tory errr George Orwell wrote about this over fifty years ago.
Hartlepool will be interesting. If Labour can pull off a surprise win there I will start to feel positively bullish.
This is not the work of pithy politics, and the fine line they work is between respecting individuality - let's call it identity capitalism as everyone trades and is invested in their individual brand, and identity communism where people are treated as broad blocks in a system and expected to conform. As you will probably see I think this flips around the normal position of left and right and means that the party who feel obliged to discuss it are in a difficult position for communication.
The London Mayoral and Assembly results will not be completed until the end of the weekend as well
Fundamentally Sir Keir is very risk adverse. That’s not really the right attribute for a leader of the opposition. It makes him dependent on the government screwing up rather than being able to drive the political narrative
Much as Biden got in in 2020 not with an Obama 2008 wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Trump or Hollande got in in 2012 not with a Macron 2017 style wave of enthusiasm but because he was not Sarkozy.
- the Tories really should be doing better in London
- Labour have really held on through difficult times in Liverpool
- Labour haven't exploded in Scotland, our message is beginning to cut through
The Tory lines will inevitably include those around losing seats in the middle of a parliament, unprecedented and unpredictable times, and didn't we do well on vaccines
"Me too"
I think I wrote about how, when the Nightingale's were being built, they used DIY stores to buy the stuff they needed within the hour.
However, because of its size, wealth and location, it had two differences from the other twelve counties:
An independent set of Assize Courts and Quarter Sesssions, which were not under the authority of Ludlow as the four circuits were;
Two county MPs and one borough MP, like an English county and unlike the rest of Wales which had one county and one borough MP (apart from Merioneth, which had no boroughs, and Pembrokeshire, where Haverfordwest had its own MP in addition to the Pembroke Boroughs MP).
The former is why acts referred to ‘Wales and Monmouthshire’ and the latter is why it was considered not quite a Welsh county.
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1377939373912682501
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1377940123057336321
Battle of Britain
Though I think Olympics 2012 may be a better answer.
I recall a Yasmin Alibhai-Brown column in the Guardian. The context was, during the Rugby World Cup, a black cab driver (who was black) had defied TfL and flown a England flag on his cab. With the avowed intention of cleaning it back from the EDL types. Which it did - to certain extent.
Anyway, YAB wrote an anguished article which included her stating that this left her with the horrifying prospect of having to *like* this country. Or, at the least, give up on the idea that liking this country was immoral. Which, she said, would making living in this country virtually impossible for her....
The success of the British Vaccine Rollout- both absolute and relative to Europe- has given the government a huge boost. But it's not that long ago that Johnson's government was slightly behind in the polls and shedding votes with each mess-up.
Will the vaccine wave carry BoJo all the way to 2024 and beyond? Or will it fade away as the fundamentals reassert themselves? Nobody knows for sure, but voters tend to be ungrateful so-and-sos, remembering the bad stuff and not the good.
B&Q (and the others) realised that the pro market was worthwhile - hence they carry a certain range of the real brands.
Most moderate Labour voters in my experience are fairly comfortable being "British" but don't feel the need to virtue signal by waving flags around all the time (oh the irony). That doesn't mean they "hate" this country.
As the "right" likes to say: Twitter isn't Britain, but Twitter also isn't "the left".