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The Met has got this very wrong and something has to change to make women feel the streets are safe

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Comments

  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    Who is actually making these decisions, it doesn't seem clear?

    I think part of the problem is that people demand that things are 100% safe and 100% effective, and authorities pander to this impossible childish demand, rather than just being honest from the start and treating people like adults saying:

    "There is no such thing as 100% safe, every medical procedure has some kind of risk" and then put that risk into some kind of perspective by comparing it with other things most people do every day.

    Then they don't have to overreact to the inevitable clusters that are bound to happen when vaccinating millions of people, they can just say of course they are investigating everything while continuing to save lives by vaccinating as fast as possible.
    If there's any truth in the idea that some countries are using this as an excuse for cancelling appointments rather than just saying there's a supply problem, it's doubly silly.

    A supply problem makes people more keen to get jabbed. Rubbishing one vaccine raises doubts about all of them.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    AnneJGP said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    Who is actually making these decisions, it doesn't seem clear?

    I think part of the problem is that people demand that things are 100% safe and 100% effective, and authorities pander to this impossible childish demand, rather than just being honest from the start and treating people like adults saying:

    "There is no such thing as 100% safe, every medical procedure has some kind of risk" and then put that risk into some kind of perspective by comparing it with other things most people do every day.

    Then they don't have to overreact to the inevitable clusters that are bound to happen when vaccinating millions of people, they can just say of course they are investigating everything while continuing to save lives by vaccinating as fast as possible.
    If there's any truth in the idea that some countries are using this as an excuse for cancelling appointments rather than just saying there's a supply problem, it's doubly silly.

    A supply problem makes people more keen to get jabbed. Rubbishing one vaccine raises doubts about all of them.

    "the idea that some countries are using this as an excuse for cancelling appointments rather than just saying there's a supply problem"


    is a pretty wild idea, any evidence to support such an extraordinary claim?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Yes, politicians quickly get to the point where the risks of not being seen to be cautious become irresistible in circumstances like that.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    The funny thing is the EMA approved the Oxford/AZN vaccine in full for all ages and have not recommended a stop to it.

    The national agencies are overriding the EMA here.
    Which can be read as political considerations overriding scientific considerations.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Does Durham have a ‘senior peer of the realm’?

    The Lambtons
  • MalcolmDunnMalcolmDunn Posts: 139
    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,930
    AnneJGP said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    ISTR reading on here that the US and UK between them have greatly increased the world's capacity to produce vaccines.

    I wonder now whether, had we still been in the EU, our part of that global increase would not have happened. It's one thing to think we'd have fallen in with the EU scheme to our own detriment, but quite another to think that all countries would have been fighting over a smaller global supply.
    If we'd still been in the EU, the EMA would still have been largely British so approvals would have been swifter, and suppliers would have included "our" Oxford/AZ as well as the French and German vaccines, and quite possibly Americans as well. Basically, we'd have been running the show so the EU scheme would have been more like the British scheme rather than vice versa.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    You reckon? Even at the height of the MMR thing, I don’t think it ever came close to being stopped. And Blair withstood pressure to say whether or not his son had had it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Charles said:

    Does Durham have a ‘senior peer of the realm’?

    The Lambtons
    Surely the Prince Bishop?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    ydoethur said:

    Good Morning everybody. I can't match Leon's tales, but on our walk yesterday by the local river my wife and I did see a pair of swans mating. Quite extraordinary antics in the water afterwards.

    And has anyone postulated that the reason for suspicions over AstraZeneca is because many Europeans no longer trust any official statements from the UK. I mean, our present Government has always taken the view that it's word is it's bond hasn't it?


    PS. I now wait to be accused of voyeurism!

    I trust, your venerable cheerful majesty, that it was the swans that were performing these antics?
    Ah, Ydoethur, as the saying goes, them days is long gone! Sadly!

    It was indeed the happy cob and pen.
    I am glad to hear that you were just swanning around, not swanning around. :smile:

    Have a good morning.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    I saw him on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pathetic interviewing from the hosts. The obvious question of “why haven’t you spoken out against the curtailment of civil liberties before this weekend?” was not asked. It was essentially, let’s give Ed Davey air time to slag off the government and the police.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    Yes. They could have put actual poison in a batch of AZN.

    But leaving that aside...
    In effect they might as well have done.

    The great hope all along has been that, once we are at a suitable point in our own vaccination programme, we will ramp up production for the third world and so start to bring additional relief to them as well if they need it. Tat well is now being poisoned by the antics of the EU. Even if the countries of Africa accept the AZ vaccine, which I hope they would, will the people themselves want to 'risk' it?

    I am getting to the point where I am hoping there is sufficient evidence for AZ to sue some European politicians and organisations once this is all over. Make them suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
    I don't think the country of origin of the vaccine has much to do with it. It all started with the trial results reported last year. Now every time some random bad thing happens to someone after getting the vaccine it confirms people's suspicions.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    tlg86 said:

    I think Dick survives. Real danger that sacking her releases a whole load of shit from the last 12 months.

    There's a COVID inquiry to come, remember. She'll be a key witness.

    I don’t see what she can add to a Covid enquiry. The police are not the ones causing the issues around civil liberties. They genuinely cannot win. People screamed for the beaches to be cleared when people went there. They screamed for the blm protests to be shut down, again because of Covid. And now they scream that ‘this’ protest must be allowed. If you believe that there was a risk of Covid spreading in the crowd on Saturday, then action was required. The action taken may have been the wrong one, but this wasnt simple.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    Yes. They could have put actual poison in a batch of AZN.

    But leaving that aside...
    In effect they might as well have done.

    The great hope all along has been that, once we are at a suitable point in our own vaccination programme, we will ramp up production for the third world and so start to bring additional relief to them as well if they need it. Tat well is now being poisoned by the antics of the EU. Even if the countries of Africa accept the AZ vaccine, which I hope they would, will the people themselves want to 'risk' it?

    I am getting to the point where I am hoping there is sufficient evidence for AZ to sue some European politicians and organisations once this is all over. Make them suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.
    Mark Twain on vaccine politics: "A lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots"
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
    I don't think the country of origin of the vaccine has much to do with it. It all started with the trial results reported last year. Now every time some random bad thing happens to someone after getting the vaccine it confirms people's suspicions.
    Come off it.

    Suspicions that only came about AFTER the EU threw a hissyfit trying to get more doses. Only after that failed did suspicions suddenly appeal.

    Had the EU ordered vaccines in a timely manner rather than months late, you think these "suspicions" would still be there? It's politics not science and it's disgraceful.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    There's a bias to prevention of direct risk, too. It's not really politicians making the decisions, but national regulators (as opposed to the EMA) whose only job is to prevent medicines that have a serious risk before they're fully understood as the groups at risk can be precisely defined ("Do not take if you are..."). Continuing a vaccine after doubts have been raised will lead to a terrible backlash if it's wrong, since there will be lots of stories saying "Fred was fine till he had the vaccine that our regulators allowed, now he's dead." A delay in being vaccinated also kills people, but less directly, and the cause-and-effect pattern is harder to prove.

    There's also an argument that by showing that they are ultra-sensitive to even the smallest direct risk, national regulators are more credible when they tell people that a new treatment X is definitely safe. Nonetheless, the delay is indefensible - even if AZ did turn out to fractionally increase the risk of blood clots (and it almost certainly won't), the benefit of having a vaccine vs not having one vastly outweighs it.

    I was an AZ sceptic - their trial was messy, some of their advocates appeared too keen to gloss over the mess, and the effectiveness against catching the virus seems less than Pfizer and Moderna. However, the effectiveness at preventing hospitalisation and death is just as good, and the sheer volume of doses given shows that there isn't a significant serious side-effect issue. The globe is still short of vaccines and everyone should simply get on with them (Sputnik and Sinopharm and J&J too). When we've all had the first vaccines we can start being more choosy for the autumn.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    tlg86 said:

    I think Dick survives. Real danger that sacking her releases a whole load of shit from the last 12 months.

    There's a COVID inquiry to come, remember. She'll be a key witness.

    I don’t see what she can add to a Covid enquiry. The police are not the ones causing the issues around civil liberties. They genuinely cannot win. People screamed for the beaches to be cleared when people went there. They screamed for the blm protests to be shut down, again because of Covid. And now they scream that ‘this’ protest must be allowed. If you believe that there was a risk of Covid spreading in the crowd on Saturday, then action was required. The action taken may have been the wrong one, but this wasnt simple.
    Were the beaches cleared? I don't recall that.

    Were the BLM protests shut down? I don't recall that.

    Why was this one, when women were protesting the way they're treated in part by the Police and the murder allegedly by a Police Officer, why was this one suddenly the one to be draconian?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    It's almost as if, unless a mass of shit is flung around to cause a distraction, people would have to resign for their failings.

    That bad.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited March 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    I saw him on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pathetic interviewing from the hosts. The obvious question of “why haven’t you spoken out against the curtailment of civil liberties before this weekend?” was not asked. It was essentially, let’s give Ed Davey air time to slag off the government and the police.
    I listened to Nicky Campbell and Rachel Burden interview an attendee this morning on 5 live and they both commented that they had been deluged with responses to the the interview and surprisingly the vast majority supported the police and asked why they were there when it had already been declared an illegal gathering under covid regulations

    Both presenters were taken aback by this unexpected response

    Polling on this could be very interesting
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    Not sure I agree.

    Protestors gather to mourn the death of an American killed by American cops - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Protestors gather to pull down a statue - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Protestors gather to protest the other protestors - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Liverpool fans gather to celebrate winning the Premier League - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Rangers fans gather to celebrate winning the Scottish League - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Women gather to mourn a woman murdered, allegedly by a British cop - Police go in heavy handed to 'enforce the law'.
    I think you’re being a bit unfair. The Met aren’t responsible for policing outside London (well, not the stuff you mention). I guess Arsenal fans are just too middle class to break lockdown rules. And I see the Met are getting criticised for protecting Churchill.

    The BLM protests were before the law change, but I think this is probably the fairest challenge. The problem is that too many people haven’t spoken out against the treatment of protesters since the law change. Just the other week someone was fined £10,000 for protesting in support of nurses.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
    I don't think the country of origin of the vaccine has much to do with it. It all started with the trial results reported last year. Now every time some random bad thing happens to someone after getting the vaccine it confirms people's suspicions.
    Come off it.

    Suspicions that only came about AFTER the EU threw a hissyfit trying to get more doses. Only after that failed did suspicions suddenly appeal.

    Had the EU ordered vaccines in a timely manner rather than months late, you think these "suspicions" would still be there? It's politics not science and it's disgraceful.
    Well, in people I know, the origin of suspicions about the AZ vaccine is precisely from the reported trial results last year. I know this because of conversations I had at the time. Nobody, not a single person, has ever cited any hissy fits from the EU as reasons for trusting the AZ vaccine less than Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.

    I am not sure why various authorities have suspended use of AZ, I think it is a mistake. But I would note that they are not all in the EU.

    There is now a certain amount of conspiracy-level kind of thinking on this board. It is typical of conspiracy theories in that accusations:
    1. Don't make any logical sense in their own right
    2. Are self-contradictory
    3. Lack any evidence
    4. Are contrary to known facts

    But I know it is a usually complete waste of time trying to argue with believers in conspiracy theories as they only see what they want to see.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    You reckon? Even at the height of the MMR thing, I don’t think it ever came close to being stopped. And Blair withstood pressure to say whether or not his son had had it.
    At the time I was convinced that he didn’t say because his new age wife had prevented the son from having it. I’m more mature now, and respect the privacy more. It’s not a fair question to ask. I have no issue with asking a politician if they would have a jab themselves, but the privacy of the children is important. And I know the Mir is for children.
    (Of course it cuts both ways - children should not be used by politicians either).
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited March 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
    That would have been the sensible answer
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    tlg86 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    I saw him on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pathetic interviewing from the hosts. The obvious question of “why haven’t you spoken out against the curtailment of civil liberties before this weekend?” was not asked. It was essentially, let’s give Ed Davey air time to slag off the government and the police.
    I listened to Nicky Campbell and Rachel Burden interview an attendee this morning on 5 live and they both commented that they had been deluged with responses to the the interview and surprisingly the vast majority supported the police and asked why they were there when it had already been declared an illegal gathering under covid regulations

    Both presenters were taken aback by this unexpected response

    Polling on this could be very interesting
    Thats what I think.. people think they have entitlement to break the law when it suits them. The poor Police cannot win.. just watch any TV programme about the scum they have to deal with ,
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
    I don't think the country of origin of the vaccine has much to do with it. It all started with the trial results reported last year. Now every time some random bad thing happens to someone after getting the vaccine it confirms people's suspicions.
    Come off it.

    Suspicions that only came about AFTER the EU threw a hissyfit trying to get more doses. Only after that failed did suspicions suddenly appeal.

    Had the EU ordered vaccines in a timely manner rather than months late, you think these "suspicions" would still be there? It's politics not science and it's disgraceful.
    Well, in people I know, the origin of suspicions about the AZ vaccine is precisely from the reported trial results last year. I know this because of conversations I had at the time. Nobody, not a single person, has ever cited any hissy fits from the EU as reasons for trusting the AZ vaccine less than Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.

    I am not sure why various authorities have suspended use of AZ, I think it is a mistake. But I would note that they are not all in the EU.

    There is now a certain amount of conspiracy-level kind of thinking on this board. It is typical of conspiracy theories in that accusations:
    1. Don't make any logical sense in their own right
    2. Are self-contradictory
    3. Lack any evidence
    4. Are contrary to known facts

    But I know it is a usually complete waste of time trying to argue with believers in conspiracy theories as they only see what they want to see.

    Are you familiar with Herd Behavioural Theory? How the actions of a large group can be set by the actions of as few as the first 2-3 actors in that group?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    tlg86 said:

    I think Dick survives. Real danger that sacking her releases a whole load of shit from the last 12 months.

    There's a COVID inquiry to come, remember. She'll be a key witness.

    I don’t see what she can add to a Covid enquiry. The police are not the ones causing the issues around civil liberties. They genuinely cannot win. People screamed for the beaches to be cleared when people went there. They screamed for the blm protests to be shut down, again because of Covid. And now they scream that ‘this’ protest must be allowed. If you believe that there was a risk of Covid spreading in the crowd on Saturday, then action was required. The action taken may have been the wrong one, but this wasnt simple.
    Were the beaches cleared? I don't recall that.

    Were the BLM protests shut down? I don't recall that.

    Why was this one, when women were protesting the way they're treated in part by the Police and the murder allegedly by a Police Officer, why was this one suddenly the one to be draconian?
    My poin5 Philip is that people wanted the beaches cleared and criticised the police. They wanted blm shut down and criticised the police. Now they wanted this protest/vigil to go ahead. I’m not defending the actions taken, but I can understand why action was taken. If you believe in the right to protest, even in the current times, then fine. I think the vigil could have been proper lay accommodated and policed. But then when piers Corbin wants to protest against lockdown, he too should have that right.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Scott_xP said:
    What a thoroughly dishonest reply from Malthouse.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    I saw him on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pathetic interviewing from the hosts. The obvious question of “why haven’t you spoken out against the curtailment of civil liberties before this weekend?” was not asked. It was essentially, let’s give Ed Davey air time to slag off the government and the police.
    I listened to Nicky Campbell and Rachel Burden interview an attendee this morning on 5 live and they both commented that they had been deluged with responses to the the interview and surprisingly the vast majority supported the police and asked why they were there when it had already been declared an illegal gathering under covid regulations

    Both presenters were taken aback by this unexpected response

    Polling on this could be very interesting
    I think people tend be more principled than the media or Twitter.

    Hopefully COVID is nearly done, but as long as we’re in lockdown, the public will expect fair play. The media might have got bored with it and mentally moved on to other more interesting things, but the public haven’t.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    moonshine said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
    I don't think the country of origin of the vaccine has much to do with it. It all started with the trial results reported last year. Now every time some random bad thing happens to someone after getting the vaccine it confirms people's suspicions.
    Come off it.

    Suspicions that only came about AFTER the EU threw a hissyfit trying to get more doses. Only after that failed did suspicions suddenly appeal.

    Had the EU ordered vaccines in a timely manner rather than months late, you think these "suspicions" would still be there? It's politics not science and it's disgraceful.
    Well, in people I know, the origin of suspicions about the AZ vaccine is precisely from the reported trial results last year. I know this because of conversations I had at the time. Nobody, not a single person, has ever cited any hissy fits from the EU as reasons for trusting the AZ vaccine less than Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.

    I am not sure why various authorities have suspended use of AZ, I think it is a mistake. But I would note that they are not all in the EU.

    There is now a certain amount of conspiracy-level kind of thinking on this board. It is typical of conspiracy theories in that accusations:
    1. Don't make any logical sense in their own right
    2. Are self-contradictory
    3. Lack any evidence
    4. Are contrary to known facts

    But I know it is a usually complete waste of time trying to argue with believers in conspiracy theories as they only see what they want to see.

    Are you familiar with Herd Behavioural Theory? How the actions of a large group can be set by the actions of as few as the first 2-3 actors in that group?
    South Africa stopped AstraZeneca on the 8th of February
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    tlg86 said:

    I think Dick survives. Real danger that sacking her releases a whole load of shit from the last 12 months.

    There's a COVID inquiry to come, remember. She'll be a key witness.

    I don’t see what she can add to a Covid enquiry. The police are not the ones causing the issues around civil liberties. They genuinely cannot win. People screamed for the beaches to be cleared when people went there. They screamed for the blm protests to be shut down, again because of Covid. And now they scream that ‘this’ protest must be allowed. If you believe that there was a risk of Covid spreading in the crowd on Saturday, then action was required. The action taken may have been the wrong one, but this wasnt simple.
    Were the beaches cleared? I don't recall that.

    Were the BLM protests shut down? I don't recall that.

    Why was this one, when women were protesting the way they're treated in part by the Police and the murder allegedly by a Police Officer, why was this one suddenly the one to be draconian?
    My poin5 Philip is that people wanted the beaches cleared and criticised the police. They wanted blm shut down and criticised the police. Now they wanted this protest/vigil to go ahead. I’m not defending the actions taken, but I can understand why action was taken. If you believe in the right to protest, even in the current times, then fine. I think the vigil could have been proper lay accommodated and policed. But then when piers Corbin wants to protest against lockdown, he too should have that right.
    Or it's different people doing the criticism. Take any action at all and there'll be someone holding a different opinion waiting to criticise it.

    I've supported the right to protest for the past year. Yes even for Corbyn. If Corbyn wants to be an idiot and protest be should have that right, to take that away takes it away from everyone.

    But the Police haven't reacted like this against mass gatherings at all for the last year. So why this one?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    IanB2 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
    The Met got the mood horribly wrong. I can only presume their underlying concern was that we would have a weekend when everybody was out and about with large groups of friends and family, "having a vigil". Lockdown over, to all intents and purposes.

    The question to be asked is, did the Met get to this point on their own as a strategy for policing London. Or did this get some level of sign-off from the Home Office? "Close it down. We still need weeks of people at home."

    If the Home Secretary supports Dick, we have a fair steer of what happened.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    tlg86 said:

    I think Dick survives. Real danger that sacking her releases a whole load of shit from the last 12 months.

    There's a COVID inquiry to come, remember. She'll be a key witness.

    I don’t see what she can add to a Covid enquiry. The police are not the ones causing the issues around civil liberties. They genuinely cannot win. People screamed for the beaches to be cleared when people went there. They screamed for the blm protests to be shut down, again because of Covid. And now they scream that ‘this’ protest must be allowed. If you believe that there was a risk of Covid spreading in the crowd on Saturday, then action was required. The action taken may have been the wrong one, but this wasnt simple.
    Were the beaches cleared? I don't recall that.

    Were the BLM protests shut down? I don't recall that.

    Why was this one, when women were protesting the way they're treated in part by the Police and the murder allegedly by a Police Officer, why was this one suddenly the one to be draconian?
    My poin5 Philip is that people wanted the beaches cleared and criticised the police. They wanted blm shut down and criticised the police. Now they wanted this protest/vigil to go ahead. I’m not defending the actions taken, but I can understand why action was taken. If you believe in the right to protest, even in the current times, then fine. I think the vigil could have been proper lay accommodated and policed. But then when piers Corbin wants to protest against lockdown, he too should have that right.
    Or it's different people doing the criticism. Take any action at all and there'll be someone holding a different opinion waiting to criticise it.

    I've supported the right to protest for the past year. Yes even for Corbyn. If Corbyn wants to be an idiot and protest be should have that right, to take that away takes it away from everyone.

    But the Police haven't reacted like this against mass gatherings at all for the last year. So why this one?
    That’s a very fair question, and probably one for the police to answer.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited March 2021
    When you're attempting to create herd immunity, you need to try and get immunity for wrong'uns too.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9361005/Child-killer-Ian-Huntley-47-gets-Covid-vaccination-jab-inside-prison-ahead-millions.html?ito=push-notification&ci=98229&si=27555644

    Prisons clearly a big vector so glad they're being done.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    IanB2 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
    A properly stewatded and socially distanced vigil would have been appropriate.

    Later today the first reading of the new police bill that criminalises all protests, even of a single person, at the whim of the police. No not problematic at all.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    I think Dick survives. Real danger that sacking her releases a whole load of shit from the last 12 months.

    There's a COVID inquiry to come, remember. She'll be a key witness.

    I don’t see what she can add to a Covid enquiry. The police are not the ones causing the issues around civil liberties. They genuinely cannot win. People screamed for the beaches to be cleared when people went there. They screamed for the blm protests to be shut down, again because of Covid. And now they scream that ‘this’ protest must be allowed. If you believe that there was a risk of Covid spreading in the crowd on Saturday, then action was required. The action taken may have been the wrong one, but this wasnt simple.
    Were the beaches cleared? I don't recall that.

    Were the BLM protests shut down? I don't recall that.

    Why was this one, when women were protesting the way they're treated in part by the Police and the murder allegedly by a Police Officer, why was this one suddenly the one to be draconian?
    My poin5 Philip is that people wanted the beaches cleared and criticised the police. They wanted blm shut down and criticised the police. Now they wanted this protest/vigil to go ahead. I’m not defending the actions taken, but I can understand why action was taken. If you believe in the right to protest, even in the current times, then fine. I think the vigil could have been proper lay accommodated and policed. But then when piers Corbin wants to protest against lockdown, he too should have that right.
    Or it's different people doing the criticism. Take any action at all and there'll be someone holding a different opinion waiting to criticise it.

    I've supported the right to protest for the past year. Yes even for Corbyn. If Corbyn wants to be an idiot and protest be should have that right, to take that away takes it away from everyone.

    But the Police haven't reacted like this against mass gatherings at all for the last year. So why this one?
    The problem is that criticism comes through the media. Now, it is their role to play devil’s advocate to a certain extent, but they set the agenda. And all through this they have tried to cause trouble for the authorities by attacking from both sides.

    The government hasn’t helped itself by trying to pretend that we can have Christmas etc., but the media’s behaviour has been thoroughly appalling.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
    A properly stewatded and socially distanced vigil would have been appropriate.

    Later today the first reading of the new police bill that criminalises all protests, even of a single person, at the whim of the police. No not problematic at all.
    Something that needs more media scrutiny, and I would hope intervention from the lords. The right to protest is crucial in a democracy.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kamski said:

    moonshine said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
    I don't think the country of origin of the vaccine has much to do with it. It all started with the trial results reported last year. Now every time some random bad thing happens to someone after getting the vaccine it confirms people's suspicions.
    Come off it.

    Suspicions that only came about AFTER the EU threw a hissyfit trying to get more doses. Only after that failed did suspicions suddenly appeal.

    Had the EU ordered vaccines in a timely manner rather than months late, you think these "suspicions" would still be there? It's politics not science and it's disgraceful.
    Well, in people I know, the origin of suspicions about the AZ vaccine is precisely from the reported trial results last year. I know this because of conversations I had at the time. Nobody, not a single person, has ever cited any hissy fits from the EU as reasons for trusting the AZ vaccine less than Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.

    I am not sure why various authorities have suspended use of AZ, I think it is a mistake. But I would note that they are not all in the EU.

    There is now a certain amount of conspiracy-level kind of thinking on this board. It is typical of conspiracy theories in that accusations:
    1. Don't make any logical sense in their own right
    2. Are self-contradictory
    3. Lack any evidence
    4. Are contrary to known facts

    But I know it is a usually complete waste of time trying to argue with believers in conspiracy theories as they only see what they want to see.

    Are you familiar with Herd Behavioural Theory? How the actions of a large group can be set by the actions of as few as the first 2-3 actors in that group?
    South Africa stopped AstraZeneca on the 8th of February
    But that was nothing to do with safety aspects of the vaccine and all to do with the studies suggesting that it was ineffective in protecting against becoming infected with the South African variant. Of course the question about its effectiveness in preventing serious illness remained unanswered (i don't know if that has been changed) but it was hardly irrational for their situation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    kamski said:

    moonshine said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
    Politics

    You can quite imagine the Daily Mail running a campaign against the vaccine here and BoJo bending to pressure regardless of the science
    Especially if a French or German vaccine was involved.
    I don't think the country of origin of the vaccine has much to do with it. It all started with the trial results reported last year. Now every time some random bad thing happens to someone after getting the vaccine it confirms people's suspicions.
    Come off it.

    Suspicions that only came about AFTER the EU threw a hissyfit trying to get more doses. Only after that failed did suspicions suddenly appeal.

    Had the EU ordered vaccines in a timely manner rather than months late, you think these "suspicions" would still be there? It's politics not science and it's disgraceful.
    Well, in people I know, the origin of suspicions about the AZ vaccine is precisely from the reported trial results last year. I know this because of conversations I had at the time. Nobody, not a single person, has ever cited any hissy fits from the EU as reasons for trusting the AZ vaccine less than Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.

    I am not sure why various authorities have suspended use of AZ, I think it is a mistake. But I would note that they are not all in the EU.

    There is now a certain amount of conspiracy-level kind of thinking on this board. It is typical of conspiracy theories in that accusations:
    1. Don't make any logical sense in their own right
    2. Are self-contradictory
    3. Lack any evidence
    4. Are contrary to known facts

    But I know it is a usually complete waste of time trying to argue with believers in conspiracy theories as they only see what they want to see.

    Are you familiar with Herd Behavioural Theory? How the actions of a large group can be set by the actions of as few as the first 2-3 actors in that group?
    South Africa stopped AstraZeneca on the 8th of February
    But on efficacy grounds over their variant, not safety.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    The AZ debacle calls into question not the vaccine (the facts will eventually sort that out) but the EU's beloved precautionary principle itself.
    What kind of principle is it that can kill your people while you burnish your halo, EU?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Why is there so much irrationality around at the moment? AZ vaccine disinformation is the main example.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    It looks to me as though the Met have been ruthlessly consistent over the last few months. As you say, the politicians are responsible for the law.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Andy_JS said:

    Why is there so much irrationality around at the moment? AZ vaccine disinformation is the main example.

    Read A distant mirror. Pandemics and proximity to death create febrile times.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    Not sure I agree.

    Protestors gather to mourn the death of an American killed by American cops - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Protestors gather to pull down a statue - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Protestors gather to protest the other protestors - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Liverpool fans gather to celebrate winning the Premier League - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Rangers fans gather to celebrate winning the Scottish League - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Women gather to mourn a woman murdered, allegedly by a British cop - Police go in heavy handed to 'enforce the law'.
    The laws now are not the same as the laws last summer.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    tlg86 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    I saw him on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pathetic interviewing from the hosts. The obvious question of “why haven’t you spoken out against the curtailment of civil liberties before this weekend?” was not asked. It was essentially, let’s give Ed Davey air time to slag off the government and the police.
    I listened to Nicky Campbell and Rachel Burden interview an attendee this morning on 5 live and they both commented that they had been deluged with responses to the the interview and surprisingly the vast majority supported the police and asked why they were there when it had already been declared an illegal gathering under covid regulations

    Both presenters were taken aback by this unexpected response

    Polling on this could be very interesting
    Thats what I think.. people think they have entitlement to break the law when it suits them. The poor Police cannot win.. just watch any TV programme about the scum they have to deal with ,
    My impression from the Facebook debate in my area (yes, it's social media) is that people have mixed feelings - both that something more must be done about aggression towards women and it's a shame that the vigil was broken up, but also that policing is horribly difficult and in the end a lockdown should be a lockdown. It's one of those issues where you get a different result depending how you put the question. Most people outside London and the political world barely know who Cressida Dick is (or indeed Ed Davey), let alone have a view on whether she should be sacked.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    tlg86 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    I saw him on BBC Breakfast this morning. Pathetic interviewing from the hosts. The obvious question of “why haven’t you spoken out against the curtailment of civil liberties before this weekend?” was not asked. It was essentially, let’s give Ed Davey air time to slag off the government and the police.
    I listened to Nicky Campbell and Rachel Burden interview an attendee this morning on 5 live and they both commented that they had been deluged with responses to the the interview and surprisingly the vast majority supported the police and asked why they were there when it had already been declared an illegal gathering under covid regulations

    Both presenters were taken aback by this unexpected response

    Polling on this could be very interesting
    Not surprising in the least. The same rules should apply to everyone.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    geoffw said:

    The AZ debacle calls into question not the vaccine (the facts will eventually sort that out) but the EU's beloved precautionary principle itself.
    What kind of principle is it that can kill your people while you burnish your halo, EU?

    There is clearly a policy from the top of the EU: throw out as much chaff as you can to obscure our failings. Latch on to anything that gives us cover. Whether it is credible is secondary to whether it muddies the waters.

    People will have to be sacrificed to protect The Project. Simple as that.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    It looks to me as though the Met have been ruthlessly consistent over the last few months. As you say, the politicians are responsible for the law.
    I suspect that this is to the Met's advantage today. You gave us these rules and we followed them.

    Be glad we exercised discretion and haven't given everyone the £10,000 fine we are supposed to give them .

    Separately I do think the idea of separating out the Met's local policing and their national responsibilities would be a worthwhile exercise.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Scott_xP said:
    Trigger the grievance process is fine. Follow the procedure. Let’s see the outcome.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    alex_ said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    Not sure I agree.

    Protestors gather to mourn the death of an American killed by American cops - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Protestors gather to pull down a statue - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Protestors gather to protest the other protestors - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Liverpool fans gather to celebrate winning the Premier League - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Rangers fans gather to celebrate winning the Scottish League - Police stand back with a light touch.

    Women gather to mourn a woman murdered, allegedly by a British cop - Police go in heavy handed to 'enforce the law'.
    The laws now are not the same as the laws last summer.
    The last of those was only 2 weeks ago.

    And the courts themselves confirmed that it was within the remit of the police to allow the vigil.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    Pulpstar said:

    When you're attempting to create herd immunity, you need to try and get immunity for wrong'uns too.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9361005/Child-killer-Ian-Huntley-47-gets-Covid-vaccination-jab-inside-prison-ahead-millions.html?ito=push-notification&ci=98229&si=27555644

    Prisons clearly a big vector so glad they're being done.

    Exactly. Prisons, like care homes, are high risk for spread for obvious reasons.

    For anyone getting upset about this with regard to Huntley specifically, I guess the question would be would you rather the government spends <£10 vaccinating him (maybe <£50 if Pfizer?) or several thousands giving him intensive hospital care if he's not vaccinated and instead contracts Covid and gets severely sick, bumping your granny out of the queue for her hip operation/cancer in the meantime?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Scott_xP said:
    They were always going to find some excuse to have a tantrum. Its what they do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    Scott_xP said:
    War memorials are very emotive for some. If it’s your family members who gave their lives for the country, and so ignorant twunk vandalisizes it, you can get pretty damn emotional.
    I recall some people on the tankie left who got very very upset when Karl Marx's memorial got some graffiti written on it.

    It's another irregular verb

    1) I protect sacred memorials
    2) You like statutes
    3) He worships the hateful idols of imperialist, racist, fascism.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dura_Ace said:

    That's an image that's going haunt the Met. She looks like the painting of Jeanne d'Arc by Millais.

    I thought the other one, where she was looking directly at the camera was the stronger image
  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 193
    As someone who occasionally used to vote Lib Dem after watching Ed Davey this morning there is negligible chance while he is leader.His answers were so shallow and opportunistic.
    What i used to like about some previous Lib Dem leaders was their integrity i.e Paddy Ashdown,Charlie Kennedy,Vince Cable and Menzies Campbell in answering questions.One can argue about Nick Clegg either way but at least he could present himself as a likeable decent person.
    George Orwell once wrote 'after 40 every person has the face they deserve'.Visually Ed Davey looks a nasty piece of work as does nowadays Nicola Sturgeon .One can see that Nicola's face has changed since she has been in power.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    They were always going to find some excuse to have a tantrum. Its what they do.

    You mean BoZo and chums of course.

    That's why I won't vote for them
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    It looks to me as though the Met have been ruthlessly consistent over the last few months. As you say, the politicians are responsible for the law.
    I suspect that this is to the Met's advantage today. You gave us these rules and we followed them.

    Be glad we exercised discretion and haven't given everyone the £10,000 fine we are supposed to give them .

    Separately I do think the idea of separating out the Met's local policing and their national responsibilities would be a worthwhile exercise.
    Ignoring the fact that, as of mid February, every single prosecution under the Covid Act has been found to be illegal and people are also now successfully challenging the fines.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    IanB2 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
    That would have been the sensible answer
    To be fair they did reach a "compromise option" of sorts with the protest organisers. That was the "doorstep vigil". The actual protest itself wasn't an organised protest in the conventional sense - albeit the "legwork" had been done before the organisers called it off.

    Part of the problem was that the previous law specifically allowed socially distanced protest with masks. The current law doesn't.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884


    Quite. It’s also tangentially important to the National Covid narrative. A few weeks ago there was a Covid outbreak in a local prison in Wiltshire, causing the rates to go sky high. With people being very jumpy about any increase in cases (last week, with huge increase in testing as a case in point), it’s for the best to try to prevent similar.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
    That would have been the sensible answer
    To be fair they did reach a "compromise option" of sorts with the protest organisers. That was the "doorstep vigil". The actual protest itself wasn't an organised protest in the conventional sense - albeit the "legwork" had been done before the organisers called it off.

    Part of the problem was that the previous law specifically allowed socially distanced protest with masks. The current law doesn't.
    I don’t see how a doorstep vigil is a compromise. You were always aloud to light a candle and stay at home...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Pulpstar said:

    When you're attempting to create herd immunity, you need to try and get immunity for wrong'uns too.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9361005/Child-killer-Ian-Huntley-47-gets-Covid-vaccination-jab-inside-prison-ahead-millions.html?ito=push-notification&ci=98229&si=27555644

    Prisons clearly a big vector so glad they're being done.

    One of my nieces, a Prison Office, brought Covid home some time ago. Said it was 'rife' where she worked.
    Fortunately neither she nor her husband were seriously ill.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 395
    I think the problem with the Met in this instance is that tactics are too easily confused with strategy.

    The Met's strategy is to stop mass gatherings spreading COVID. That's great, nearly all of us can agree on that.

    The police knew that people right or wrong were going to gather for this vigil. What would the best tactics have been to prevent that mass gathering spreading COVID? Is it to work with the organisers to make sure that the gathering was managed and socially distanced? Or was it what they actually did?

    I know what my opinion is.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    Except the Court already ruled protests are not necessarily illegal and the response by the Police needs to be proportional. That didn't happen.

    The Police should enforce the law as is, not the law as they want. They don't have a blank cheque.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Sandpit said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    The funny thing is the EMA approved the Oxford/AZN vaccine in full for all ages and have not recommended a stop to it.

    The national agencies are overriding the EMA here.
    Which can be read as political considerations overriding scientific considerations.
    As to the why we haven't stopped in this country - it is my understanding that the data from the vaccine rollout here is being examined as it comes in, rather than waiting on reports second hand.

    So they have a huge data set, growing all the time, which they are actively looking at. So checking that blood clots aren't statistically excessive has already been done.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    It looks to me as though the Met have been ruthlessly consistent over the last few months. As you say, the politicians are responsible for the law.
    I suspect that this is to the Met's advantage today. You gave us these rules and we followed them.

    Be glad we exercised discretion and haven't given everyone the £10,000 fine we are supposed to give them .

    Separately I do think the idea of separating out the Met's local policing and their national responsibilities would be a worthwhile exercise.
    Ignoring the fact that, as of mid February, every single prosecution under the Covid Act has been found to be illegal and people are also now successfully challenging the fines.
    True, but could you imagine today's Daily Mail headline if alongside the protest the Met had issued multiple fines.

    And as is the case in all stories, the fine would be on page 1, the challenge on page 47 (unless the Daily Mail where championing it, in which case it would again by page 1).

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited March 2021

    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    Did anyone notice what Ed Davey had to say? I didnt. The problem lies higher than Cressida Dick uninspiring leader of the Met as she is. The police were trying to enforce laws which shouldn't exist. That they have done this heavy handedly and inconsistently is another story.

    The mistake was made when they refused to discuss compromise options and banned the vigil. The Met should have better judged the mood and agreed to some suitably socially distanced outside gathering.
    That would have been the sensible answer
    To be fair they did reach a "compromise option" of sorts with the protest organisers. That was the "doorstep vigil". The actual protest itself wasn't an organised protest in the conventional sense - albeit the "legwork" had been done before the organisers called it off.

    Part of the problem was that the previous law specifically allowed socially distanced protest with masks. The current law doesn't.
    I don’t see how a doorstep vigil is a compromise. You were always aloud to light a candle and stay at home...
    I did put "compromise" in quotes. My point was that they came to an agreement on the way forward with the organisers of the protest. Whether it was, in effect, a capitulation, is another matter.

    EDIT: i think i'm talking rubbish here, of course.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    geoffw said:

    The AZ debacle calls into question not the vaccine (the facts will eventually sort that out) but the EU's beloved precautionary principle itself.
    What kind of principle is it that can kill your people while you burnish your halo, EU?

    I agree that the pause will kill people and is completely wrong. But you're mistaken to drag EU regulation into it. The EU regulators approve the use of AZ. It's national regulators exercising the right to override the EU that are causing the issue. If you really wanted to use the case to talk about the EU, it would be an example of a need for less national sovereignty and more central power for the EU. But that would be silly too - the reality is simply that there are over 100 national regulators in the world and some (inside and outside the EU) are being exaggeratedly cautious.

    More generally, not everything is about everything else. Some things have nothing to do with Brexit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    The German Green party has put a great deal of effort into stopping various aspects of bio-technology. To the point that some simple school grade experiments are illegal.

    One concern in biotech in Europe is that the German Green policies in this area will we rolled into European policy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    @SeaShantyIrish2 Yes, and it's absolutely endemic.

    Even Kids TV has class in it. For example, Peppa Pig is off the scale middle class: both mummy and daddy pig have office jobs, talk about supper - rather than tea - and Peppa and George call their grandparents "granny" and "grampy".

    By contrast, Daisy and Ollie is aspirational working class. Ben and Hollie is very lower middle class.

    Little Princess is extremely northern working class, although they are set as royalty in a castle.

    And Paddington is very upper middle class - who else can afford a huge townhouse in London, with a housekeeper ?

    This doesn't carry across to American/Canadian kidz TV (like paw patrol etc) where the rules are quite different.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    edited March 2021

    Sandpit said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    The funny thing is the EMA approved the Oxford/AZN vaccine in full for all ages and have not recommended a stop to it.

    The national agencies are overriding the EMA here.
    Which can be read as political considerations overriding scientific considerations.
    As to the why we haven't stopped in this country - it is my understanding that the data from the vaccine rollout here is being examined as it comes in, rather than waiting on reports second hand.

    So they have a huge data set, growing all the time, which they are actively looking at. So checking that blood clots aren't statistically excessive has already been done.
    As an interesting side point it is worth considering for the moment the public reaction if the AZ roll out was paused in UK for the rest of the month.

    I think Brits who were having appointments cancelled would go absolutely ballistic. The CRG would be giving Johnson hell within hours.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Scott_xP said:

    They were always going to find some excuse to have a tantrum. Its what they do.

    You mean BoZo and chums of course.

    That's why I won't vote for them
    Nope the EU. Just like you they are proving themselves the master of ignorant tantrums.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518



    Quite. It’s also tangentially important to the National Covid narrative. A few weeks ago there was a Covid outbreak in a local prison in Wiltshire, causing the rates to go sky high. With people being very jumpy about any increase in cases (last week, with huge increase in testing as a case in point), it’s for the best to try to prevent similar.

    Kent variant started in a prison...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    The German Green party has put a great deal of effort into stopping various aspects of bio-technology. To the point that some simple school grade experiments are illegal.

    One concern in biotech in Europe is that the German Green policies in this area will we rolled into European policy.
    Good news for the UK, hope they do it.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    It is hardly surprising that the ever sp woke BBC is surprised when their view of the world is not the same as the population at large.... ALSO...Twitter is no the conscience of the nation.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    geoffw said:

    The AZ debacle calls into question not the vaccine (the facts will eventually sort that out) but the EU's beloved precautionary principle itself.
    What kind of principle is it that can kill your people while you burnish your halo, EU?

    I agree that the pause will kill people and is completely wrong. But you're mistaken to drag EU regulation into it. The EU regulators approve the use of AZ. It's national regulators exercising the right to override the EU that are causing the issue. If you really wanted to use the case to talk about the EU, it would be an example of a need for less national sovereignty and more central power for the EU. But that would be silly too - the reality is simply that there are over 100 national regulators in the world and some (inside and outside the EU) are being exaggeratedly cautious.

    More generally, not everything is about everything else. Some things have nothing to do with Brexit.
    The other issue is that in quite a few countries the regulators of various things are not independent.

    I am reminded of the response from the Italian air safety regulator to a scientific report prepared by Farnborough on an airplane crash. This proved that a bomb had bought the plane in question down. The feedback from the Italian regulator was that the report was unusable, since it did not support the position of the Italian government.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Metatron said:

    As someone who occasionally used to vote Lib Dem after watching Ed Davey this morning there is negligible chance while he is leader.His answers were so shallow and opportunistic.
    What i used to like about some previous Lib Dem leaders was their integrity i.e Paddy Ashdown,Charlie Kennedy,Vince Cable and Menzies Campbell in answering questions.One can argue about Nick Clegg either way but at least he could present himself as a likeable decent person.
    George Orwell once wrote 'after 40 every person has the face they deserve'.Visually Ed Davey looks a nasty piece of work as does nowadays Nicola Sturgeon .One can see that Nicola's face has changed since she has been in power.

    I'm going to hit that milestone in 18 months.

    *desperately starts examining his face for flaws in the mirror*
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    It is hardly surprising that the ever sp woke BBC is surprised when their view of the world is not the same as the population at large.... ALSO...Twitter is no the conscience of the nation.

    Probably surprised to find the population at large disagreeing when the BBC and the Mail are at one though...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    geoffw said:

    The AZ debacle calls into question not the vaccine (the facts will eventually sort that out) but the EU's beloved precautionary principle itself.
    What kind of principle is it that can kill your people while you burnish your halo, EU?

    I agree that the pause will kill people and is completely wrong. But you're mistaken to drag EU regulation into it. The EU regulators approve the use of AZ. It's national regulators exercising the right to override the EU that are causing the issue. If you really wanted to use the case to talk about the EU, it would be an example of a need for less national sovereignty and more central power for the EU. But that would be silly too - the reality is simply that there are over 100 national regulators in the world and some (inside and outside the EU) are being exaggeratedly cautious.

    More generally, not everything is about everything else. Some things have nothing to do with Brexit.
    The other issue is that in quite a few countries the regulators of various things are not independent.

    I am reminded of the response from the Italian air safety regulator to a scientific report prepared by Farnborough on an airplane crash. This proved that a bomb had bought the plane in question down. The feedback from the Italian regulator was that the report was unusable, since it did not support the position of the Italian government.
    Not disputing the point, but haven't you got this mixed up? (it may be a different case). There was an aircrash where the Italians were insistent that a plane was brought down by an (American) missile, but external investigators proved that it was an internal issue with the plane (some sort of build up of gas causing and explosion or something).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Antivax and Anti-EU sentiment are meeting below the Daily Mail line, and looks like people are coming round to the jab.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    Except the Court already ruled protests are not necessarily illegal and the response by the Police needs to be proportional. That didn't happen.

    The Police should enforce the law as is, not the law as they want. They don't have a blank cheque.
    They will shortly. When Priti's new Police Bill passes, they can criminalise any protest if they believe it might cause significant annoyance.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Professor Anthony Harnden, deputy chairman of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, said women were more likely to get side effects from the Oxford jab.

    People who get the jab are more likely to get side effects after the first dose than the second, he added.

    Asked whether people might experience some side effects, he told BBC Breakfast: "Yes, there are. The Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine - for the first dose - seems to give quite a lot of minor side effects like: a very sore arm; fever; malaise; headache and sometimes chills which may last for up to 48 hours afterwards.

    "They do seem to be more common in women and in younger women.

    Telegraph live blog
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    eek said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    It looks to me as though the Met have been ruthlessly consistent over the last few months. As you say, the politicians are responsible for the law.
    I suspect that this is to the Met's advantage today. You gave us these rules and we followed them.

    Be glad we exercised discretion and haven't given everyone the £10,000 fine we are supposed to give them .

    Separately I do think the idea of separating out the Met's local policing and their national responsibilities would be a worthwhile exercise.
    Ignoring the fact that, as of mid February, every single prosecution under the Covid Act has been found to be illegal and people are also now successfully challenging the fines.
    True, but could you imagine today's Daily Mail headline if alongside the protest the Met had issued multiple fines.

    And as is the case in all stories, the fine would be on page 1, the challenge on page 47 (unless the Daily Mail where championing it, in which case it would again by page 1).

    The Daily Mail is likewise not the conscience of the nation.... a nasty rag.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    Scott_xP said:
    War memorials are very emotive for some. If it’s your family members who gave their lives for the country, and so ignorant twunk vandalisizes it, you can get pretty damn emotional.
    It's quite clear what's going on here.

    There's a cadre on the radical Left here who sense an opportunity to use the outrage over Sarah Everard to crowbar open the debate on statues and symbolism all over again.

    They're utterly shameless, and deranged.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    Except the Court already ruled protests are not necessarily illegal and the response by the Police needs to be proportional. That didn't happen.

    The Police should enforce the law as is, not the law as they want. They don't have a blank cheque.
    I am not suggesting that they do. The High Court ruling was pretty unhelpful to all concerned.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    There are 3,000 blood clots a month in general UK population says JVCI member.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    Except the Court already ruled protests are not necessarily illegal and the response by the Police needs to be proportional. That didn't happen.

    The Police should enforce the law as is, not the law as they want. They don't have a blank cheque.
    They will shortly. When Priti's new Police Bill passes, they can criminalise any protest if they believe it might cause significant annoyance.
    The fact that the Govt are pressing on regardless, without any apology (and with the standard justification these days of "the police have requested these powers") is probably a true indication of their prior view (and possible instruction) in relation to the Clapham Common vigil.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,587

    DavidL said:

    Cressida Dick was a completely bizarre choice for the Met. Her career should have ended in ignominy after the killing of de Menezes and the appalling lies that were told to justify that. But, having slept on it, I don't think her career will be ended by this. Cops have been wildly inconsistent in enforcing the law around protest and this was stupid, heavy handed and unnecessary. But no one died and the law was enforced. Whatever the "optics" the cops did their job.

    If people want the police not to enforce stupid laws they should not allow politicians to pass them.

    Except the Court already ruled protests are not necessarily illegal and the response by the Police needs to be proportional. That didn't happen.

    The Police should enforce the law as is, not the law as they want. They don't have a blank cheque.
    The Police should have the option of applying common sense.

    Your analysis of how the UK should be policed follows the East German Stasi model.
This discussion has been closed.