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The Met has got this very wrong and something has to change to make women feel the streets are safe

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 14 in General
imageThe Met has got this very wrong and something has to change to make women feel the streets are safe – politicalbetting.com

Given what the issue was that caused the Saturday evening vigil on Clapham Common the way that the Metropolitan Police have handled it looks appalling and naive and the Mail, surely, has read the public mood right in its approach for tomorrow’s front page.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • adamandcatadamandcat Posts: 71
    Gone by tomorrow
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 36,472
    We need a Met Commissioner wot doesn't sound like a nasty venereal disease!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,058
    Yep. Gone by end of play tomorrow.

    Saw a clip of the interview. I see what Dan Hodges meant. Hopeless and tin eared.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    What higher rank can Dick fall to next? MP?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    edited March 14
    Of course it isn't just violence and harassment against women, violent crime is up...Total normal daily occurrence now on the streets of London.

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1371161905872695300?s=20
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,058

    What higher rank can Dick fall to next? MP?

    Test and Trace will have a vacancy no doubt.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,108
    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,261

    What higher rank can Dick fall to next? MP?

    EU President?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,345
    Regarding Labour these days "limp" seems to be THE operative word.

    Pretty amazing when you consider some of the big beasts of the past, including a few that made it into the 21st century.

    But now, in years of tremendous change and crisis - zilch. WTF???

    No wonder a freaking yard gnome like fuqing Jeremy Corbyn could rise to be Labour leader. Pathetic hardly does it justice.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035

    What higher rank can Dick fall to next? MP?

    EU President?
    Which one?
  • Goodness me, Jess Phillips for Labour leader, really?

    She ran in 2020 and she was awful, she's good but not for leadership, IMHO.

    Starmer remains the best they've got, admittedly a low bar.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 387

    What higher rank can Dick fall to next? MP?

    Home Secretary?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    ‘They carried candles and M&S tulips. Older women brought kids or labradoodles‘

    M&S tulips. Groovy leggings. Labradoodles.

    The murder was horrendous but something in me bridles at the middle-classness of it all. Feminism by Waitrose
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,108
    Leon said:

    ‘They carried candles and M&S tulips. Older women brought kids or labradoodles‘

    M&S tulips. Groovy leggings. Labradoodles.

    The murder was horrendous but something in me bridles at the middle-classness of it all. Feminism by Waitrose

    Not Waitrose. Waitrose woman would have taken the label off the flowers and wrapped them in artisanal brown paper.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,092
    Hasn't Starmer said she shouldn't be sacked ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 57,199
    edited March 14
    Leon said:

    ‘They carried candles and M&S tulips. Older women brought kids or labradoodles‘

    M&S tulips. Groovy leggings. Labradoodles.

    The murder was horrendous but something in me bridles at the middle-classness of it all. Feminism by Waitrose

    A Mumsnet March....they will be very powerful, well educated, well connected group. Much harder to dismiss than BLM anti-semite leader or the anti-statue toppler organisers with far right connections.

    Rashford powered by RocNation, whose rep who deals with his campaigns, again extremely well connected lady.

    Remember young Greta, often not talked about, her parents are extremely well connected individuals in Sweden.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 36,860
    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,345
    I thought that the English today are NOT as class-ridden as in days of yore. Until I read this thread.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,639
    Leon said:

    ‘They carried candles and M&S tulips. Older women brought kids or labradoodles‘

    M&S tulips. Groovy leggings. Labradoodles.

    The murder was horrendous but something in me bridles at the middle-classness of it all. Feminism by Waitrose

    That was why Kate Middleton felt it safe to appear and lay some dafs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727

    Leon said:

    ‘They carried candles and M&S tulips. Older women brought kids or labradoodles‘

    M&S tulips. Groovy leggings. Labradoodles.

    The murder was horrendous but something in me bridles at the middle-classness of it all. Feminism by Waitrose

    A Mumsnet March....they will be very powerful, well educated, well connected group. Much harder to dismiss than BLM anti-semite leader or the anti-statue toppler organisers with far right connections.

    Rashford powered by RocNation, whose rep who deals with his campaigns, again extremely well connected lady.

    Remember young Greta, often not talked about, her parents are extremely well connected individuals in Sweden.
    Yes. Sharp elbows. A force to be reckoned with. They still irritate me on some subconscious level, tho their cause is just, Cressida dick is a mediocrity, and the police were badly led the other night.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,385
    edited March 14

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.


    The EU ban on GM foods showed they were always a bit dodgy on the life sciences front.

    I can't work out if their current antagonism to AZ is because they know they don't have enough vaccine and want to divert their populations anger away from themselves or because they genuinely don't understand the precautionary principal.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,108

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,012

    Leon said:

    ‘They carried candles and M&S tulips. Older women brought kids or labradoodles‘

    M&S tulips. Groovy leggings. Labradoodles.

    The murder was horrendous but something in me bridles at the middle-classness of it all. Feminism by Waitrose

    A Mumsnet March....they will be very powerful, well educated, well connected group. Much harder to dismiss than BLM anti-semite leader or the anti-statue toppler organisers with far right connections.

    Rashford powered by RocNation, whose rep who deals with his campaigns, again extremely well connected lady.

    Remember young Greta, often not talked about, her parents are extremely well connected individuals in Sweden.
    Indeed. Daughters and daughters-in-law of Tory Mps, journalists, civil servants and judges and the like amongst others. And their friends.
    It is their very middle classness which makes them tough to dismiss.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
  • RobDRobD Posts: 53,035
    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    The EMA have said there is no reason to stop, and that there is no evidence of elevated risk. Why aren't they listening to their regulator?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,012

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,092
    Leon said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    That is lost lives, right there
    Live lost, worse health outcomes for the dutch people, lost economic output, more loneliness, more failed businesses. A disaster on every front.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,012

    I thought that the English today are NOT as class-ridden as in days of yore. Until I read this thread.

    You thought wrong, my Colonial friend.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 36,860
    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    The way PR works in the Netherlands means the government always wins.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,345
    ABC.net.au - Labor's landslide victory win shows Liberal Party on brink of extinction in WA

    For a second time in a century, West Australians have overwhelmingly endorsed the idea of breaking away from the federation, re-electing a wildly popular Premier, whose crowning achievement during the pandemic has been shutting the border and closing WA to the "eastern states".

    You don't have to scratch too deeply below the surface to pick up on the resource-rich state's secessionist sentiment, driven by its isolation and the feeling it's often overlooked by the rest of Australia.

    But few WA Premiers have had the opportunity to really tap into, and test, the extent of that parochialism. Until now.

    As the most popular leader in the country, Mark McGowan's victory on Saturday was never in doubt.

    As polling day drew closer, the question wasn't, "Will Labor win?" it was, "How big can Labor win?"

    Well, that question has now been answered: astronomically big.

    Voters in the west handed Labor a landslide victory unlike anything seen before and so comprehensively rejected the Liberal Party that it's now on the brink of extinction.

    In the new State Parliament, Labor will hold at least 53 of the 59 seats and the Liberals just two, meaning the Nationals — which won 4 regional seats — will become the official opposition.

    With a likely Labor majority in the Upper House, WA has virtually become a one-party state. . . .
    Prime Minister Scott Morrison not only opposed McGowan's hard border but doubled down by siding with controversial Queensland businessman Clive Palmer — who is toxic in WA — to challenge its constitutionality in the High Court. They lost.

    For a man who ran Operation Sovereign Borders, it's ironic that Morrison so profoundly misread the mood on this one.

    As one source put it, "[The federal government] doesn't look like it's barracking for WA," — a perception made even worse by the fact that Morrison didn't once visit the state during the campaign.

    Federally, the Liberals have been dominant in WA, their brand bolstered by Morrison's "miracle" win in 2019 which saw the party take 11 of the 16 seats in the west.

    But after Saturday's devastating defeat, the party lost the state-based infrastructure and resourcing that's vital to fight elections and run costly campaigns.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-15/wa-election-federal-implications-voting/13239076
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,108
    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    Really? I’d missed that! The Dutch elections usually make the news here but, I suppose, Covid.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,012

    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    The way PR works in the Netherlands means the government always wins.
    Well. OK.
    The Party of the PM looks set to increase its votes and seats then.
    That doesn't always happen.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    Does Durham have a ‘senior peer of the realm’?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,012

    Yep. Gone by end of play tomorrow.

    Saw a clip of the interview. I see what Dan Hodges meant. Hopeless and tin eared.

    I really hope so
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,176

    I thought that the English today are NOT as class-ridden as in days of yore. Until I read this thread.

    Did you not read any of the other ones?!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,639
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    ‘They carried candles and M&S tulips. Older women brought kids or labradoodles‘

    M&S tulips. Groovy leggings. Labradoodles.

    The murder was horrendous but something in me bridles at the middle-classness of it all. Feminism by Waitrose

    A Mumsnet March....they will be very powerful, well educated, well connected group. Much harder to dismiss than BLM anti-semite leader or the anti-statue toppler organisers with far right connections.

    Rashford powered by RocNation, whose rep who deals with his campaigns, again extremely well connected lady.

    Remember young Greta, often not talked about, her parents are extremely well connected individuals in Sweden.
    Indeed. Daughters and daughters-in-law of Tory Mps, journalists, civil servants and judges and the like amongst others. And their friends.
    It is their very middle classness which makes them tough to dismiss.
    Indeed, this was a public murder with lurid details of a pretty marketing executive on Clapham Common. Of course it resonates with the middle classes, indeed with what used to be the Daily Mail demographic.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,012

    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    Really? I’d missed that! The Dutch elections usually make the news here but, I suppose, Covid.
    Indeed. The WA election and the 2 Lander in Germany today passed with very little comment by PB standards.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,012

    Goodness me, Jess Phillips for Labour leader, really?

    She ran in 2020 and she was awful, she's good but not for leadership, IMHO.

    Starmer remains the best they've got, admittedly a low bar.

    I like this more realistic you - but do you really think Starmer is your best choice?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,012

    Does Durham have a ‘senior peer of the realm’?

    Prince Bishops instead.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,112
    dixiedean said:

    Does Durham have a ‘senior peer of the realm’?

    Prince Bishops instead.
    So 19th Century. I assume that’s the historic oddity for why there’s no ‘Duke of Durham’?

    Time for a Sir Dominic Cummings, Duke of Durham.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,012
    Dutch "pause" is for 2 weeks

    Seriously, what the actual????
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,108
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    Really? I’d missed that! The Dutch elections usually make the news here but, I suppose, Covid.
    Indeed. The WA election and the 2 Lander in Germany today passed with very little comment by PB standards.
    Is there still time for an ill-informed “Wilders is PM” post? I can write it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,695

    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.

    The optics are easier if Patel sacks her - woman sacking woman better than man sacking woman.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    Really? I’d missed that! The Dutch elections usually make the news here but, I suppose, Covid.
    Indeed. The WA election and the 2 Lander in Germany today passed with very little comment by PB standards.
    Is there still time for an ill-informed “Wilders is PM” post? I can write it.
    Given the lunacy that seems to have befallen European nations this quarter, you have to start to wonder if Wilders would be any worse?

    Just like in France in that infamous clip where Macron's minister attacks Le Pen for not being Islamophobic enough.

    We're through the looking glass it seems.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426

    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.

    The optics are easier if Patel sacks her - woman sacking woman better than man sacking woman.
    Who has the authority to sack her?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,695

    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.

    The optics are easier if Patel sacks her - woman sacking woman better than man sacking woman.
    Who has the authority to sack her?
    If the Home Secretary tells her she has lost the confidence of the Home Office, the PM, the Cabinet - she walks.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,108

    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.

    The optics are easier if Patel sacks her - woman sacking woman better than man sacking woman.
    Who has the authority to sack her?
    Technically the Home Secretary on behalf of the Queen. But the Boris example shows the Mayor can, using their policing powers, in effect make the position untenable.

    Really, the national policing functions of the Met should be separated out and the London police force made a matter for the Mayor.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,092
    Could Khan sack her ?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,108
    Pulpstar said:

    Could Khan sack her ?

    Boris did, in effect. If the Mayor has no confidence and doesn’t want the Commissioner running their police. But it’s a bit open. The national and local aspects of the job need separating.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,092
    Just told a bunch of antivax loons that I'll let them know if I die after vaccination on twitter.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426

    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.

    Boris has already sacked one Commissioner. I think he'd let his Home Secretary deal with it this time.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 10,316
    Brendan O'Neill:

    "Assembly for me, but not for thee
    The anger over the police assault on the Sarah Everard vigil has exposed the double standards of the liberal elite."

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/03/14/assembly-for-me-but-not-for-thee/
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,345

    Does Durham have a ‘senior peer of the realm’?

    Will defer to Charles & others, but suspect that the Earl of Durham would qualify - historically, socially, politically & economically.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 19,560

    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.

    The optics are easier if Patel sacks her - woman sacking woman better than man sacking woman.
    Knowing our luck she'll put bloody Dido Harding in charge!

    Anyway thanks all for the comments and interesting chat on my header on the previous thread.

    Was amused that a thread starting out discussing sexual harassment of women ended up with @Leon telling us of his mate's conquest of gazillions of call girls.

    Night all.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 36,472

    But the Boris example shows the Mayor can, using their policing powers, in effect make the position untenable.

    "Cressida, you are terrible at Tenable!"
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,562
    edited March 15
    It is good to see that the Daily Merkle has a new hate figure.

    And the Sir Ed & the LibDems lining nicely up alongside the DM for the week's hate.

    FWIW, I think Cressida has bloodied hands over the vastly more serious business of the assassination of Jean Charles de Menezes. She should never have been appointed.

    But, nothing sums the UK up better than Cressida finally getting her come-uppance because the DM & the LibDems have come together to drive the Outrage Bus over her.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,345
    GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT
    by Shirley Eikhard and made a hit by Bonnie Raitt

    People are talkin', talkin' about people
    I hear them whisper you won't believe it
    They think we're lovers kept under covers
    I just ignore it but they keep saying

    We laugh just a little too loud
    We stand just a little too close
    We stare just a little too long
    Maybe they're seeing something we don't darlin'

    Let's give 'em something to talk about
    Let's give us something to talk about
    I got a little something to talk about
    How's about a little something to talk about
    How about love?

    I feel so foolish, I never noticed
    You'd act so nervous
    Could you be falling baby?
    It took a rumor to make me wonder
    Now I'm convinced I'm going under

    Thinking 'bout you every day
    Dreaming 'bout you every night
    Hoping that you feel the same way
    Now that we know it let's really show it darlin'

    Let's give them something to talk about
    A little mystery to figure out
    I want a little something to talk about
    I want your love, love, love

    Give 'em a little something to talk about baby
    I got a little something they can figure out
    Let's give them something to talk about
    How about love, love, love?

    Woo, hoo. listen up baby
    I want your love, love, love
    I want your love, love, love

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLpRBDrhn8&list=RDMM&index=7
  • LeonLeon Posts: 4,727
    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB


  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 3,317
    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB


    Every time I see one of these headlines on vaccines with some variant on the phrase "shooting themselves in the foot", I want to make the same stupid joke about how they're supposed to shoot them in the upper arm.

    And then I remember that the journalist probably already thought of that and is frustrated at not being able to make the joke more explicitly.

    I'm sure there was a point to this post when I started it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 10,316
    edited March 15
    "Sources said both Priti Patel and the prime minister had confidence in Dame Cressida. Dame Cressida said she agreed on the need for a "sober review" and defended how officers responded to the "really big crowd".

    "Quite rightly, as far as I can see, my team felt that this is now an unlawful gathering which poses a considerable risk to people's health," she said. "I don't think anybody who was not in the operation can actually pass a detailed comment on the rightness and wrongness... This is fiendishly difficult policing."

    She added: "What has happened makes me more determined, not less, to lead my organisation.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56389824
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,577
    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Sources said both Priti Patel and the prime minister had confidence in Dame Cressida. Dame Cressida said she agreed on the need for a "sober review" and defended how officers responded to the "really big crowd".

    "Quite rightly, as far as I can see, my team felt that this is now an unlawful gathering which poses a considerable risk to people's health," she said. "I don't think anybody who was not in the operation can actually pass a detailed comment on the rightness and wrongness... This is fiendishly difficult policing."

    She added: "What has happened makes me more determined, not less, to lead my organisation.""

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56389824

    Sorry, I just can't see policing a crowd of people peacefully mourning a murdered woman - no matter how large it is - as fiendishly difficult policing. In fact, it probably did not need any policing, and if some were necessary, just the lightest touch.

    Fiendishly difficult, my arse

    The mere fact that that is her assessment of the situation shows she is not qualified for the job.
    When the crowd is there because of the behaviour of some other country’s dodgy coppers, the Met join the crowd in kneeling.

    When the crowd is there because of the behaviour of one of their own dodgy coppers, the Met come down hard on them with batons and cuffs.

    Easy to understand.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,630
    There might be a hitherto unconsidered political problem with sacking Cressida Dick.

    Or rather, with replacing her.

    Boris sacked Ian Blair, even though in theory it was the Home Secretary's remit, not the Mayor's.

    So the question is, did Mayor Boris effectively give Mayor Sadiq a veto on any proposed replacement? Whoever might win the battle to appoint a new Commissioner, is it really a fight Boris wants shortly before the Mayoral election? On the other hand, Boris will not want Sadiq to sack Dame Cressida before he can. Which way to jump? The Prime Minister might need to write two letters.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 30,577
    edited March 15

    There might be a hitherto unconsidered political problem with sacking Cressida Dick.

    Or rather, with replacing her.

    Boris sacked Ian Blair, even though in theory it was the Home Secretary's remit, not the Mayor's.

    So the question is, did Mayor Boris effectively give Mayor Sadiq a veto on any proposed replacement? Whoever might win the battle to appoint a new Commissioner, is it really a fight Boris wants shortly before the Mayoral election? On the other hand, Boris will not want Sadiq to sack Dame Cressida before he can. Which way to jump? The Prime Minister might need to write two letters.

    It’s a weird arrangement of lines of authority, which is part of the problem. As others have said, is the Met really too big to be led effectively?

    The most obvious solution is to split the Met in two, with the nationally-focussed agencies moved under the command of the Home Secretary - in a similar way to how British Transport Police operate - and a day-to-day London policing force under the Mayor.

    An arrangement which, with the current case, might have led to a different response - as the policeman charged with the murder being from one of those national areas, but the protests policed by the local London force.

    What is clear, is that the Mayor needs to be the politician accountable for the behaviour of routine London policing, and held accountable at the ballot box. This was the whole point of electing police commissioners in the first place, so the people can influence the priorities given to the police.

    Johnson, as Mayor, did a good job of forcing the previous incumbent out of Scotland Yard, it’s surprising that Khan isn’t trying to do the same only a couple of months away from his own election. Large numbers of Londoners have lost faith in the police, after the events of the last couple of weeks.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,784
    Cyclefree said:

    It’ll be a race between Boris, Patel, and Khan to be seen to sack her. Patel is more cynical, and I think will win the race.

    Of course, she should go though. I just wish it was outside of politics and they all just united over the issue.

    The optics are easier if Patel sacks her - woman sacking woman better than man sacking woman.
    Knowing our luck she'll put bloody Dido Harding in charge!

    Anyway thanks all for the comments and interesting chat on my header on the previous thread.

    Was amused that a thread starting out discussing sexual harassment of women ended up with @Leon telling us of his mate's conquest of gazillions of call girls.

    Night all.

    Seems to me that last para encapsulates the problem. There's a pattern in male/female relationships that all too often goes like this:

    Woman states her issues calmly and quietly. Nothing happens.

    Woman states her issues calmly and quietly again. Nothing happens.

    This goes on until, sooner or later, the woman explodes in anger.

    Then, the man says to her, "Why can't you just tell me all that, calmly and quietly?"

    Good morning, everyone.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,488
    That's an image that's going haunt the Met. She looks like the painting of Jeanne d'Arc by Millais.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,437

    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    The way PR works in the Netherlands means the government always wins.
    The Netherlands has exactly the same system of PR as Israel, no?

    Does the government always win there too?

    Of course, you only have to go back about 15 years to see an election result where the top two parties were completely different.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 1,944
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Apparently the Dutch have cancelled 43,000 appointments due to the pause on AstraZeneca. Crazy.

    Unless evidence arises (we can be sure it won’t) to support the theory, every Gvt that’s done this is going to get crucified isn’t it? Especially the likes of the Irish and the Dutch that can and do watch our tv.
    Well. Conveniently the Dutch have an election on Tuesday.
    The PM is soaring in the polls and will win. In common with all governments right now.
    How long that will last who knows?
    The way PR works in the Netherlands means the government always wins.
    The Netherlands has exactly the same system of PR as Israel, no?

    Does the government always win there too?

    Of course, you only have to go back about 15 years to see an election result where the top two parties were completely different.
    No, they are not exactly the same.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 767
    I sense that Cressida Dick will probably weather this....... although its close. IMO the optics of removing the first female head of the Met will win out, BJ's govt already faces accusations of blokish-ness so I think cooler heads will prevail.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,798
    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,244

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,244
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914
    I think Dick survives. Real danger that sacking her releases a whole load of shit from the last 12 months.

    There's a COVID inquiry to come, remember. She'll be a key witness.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426
    Dick's contract expires next year and was expected to be renewed. Surely easier to thank her for service but not renew it than to sack her?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,280
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Verstappen's down a bit more to 4.33. But Hamilton still clear favourite at 1.4.

    Interestingly, the Bahrain market (winner's the only one up on Ladbrokes) has Hamilton 2.5 and Verstappen 2.62.

    Perez is 8.5. Unfortunately the each way is only top 2, but if you think Mercedes are in trouble and Red Bull's looking good, one to consider. Worth noting Mercedes tends not to top timesheets at testing, although the snappy rear end, if untamed, could be a problem.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,798
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,244
    Scott_xP said:
    Soubry is a lawyer, is she not ?

    Do any PB lawyers know what the term means in law ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,244
    edited March 15
    Not so different from some European medical authorities.

    https://twitter.com/RyanMarino/status/1371300834219327489
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,583
    I have listened and read a ,ot of commnets on the 'vigil' story this w/e. I have found it confusing. Clearly it is very emotive and the police have been pretty cack-handed in the way they've handled the whole thing.My only thought is that the rush to judgement and swift action while in the full glare of very heightened emotions is not always the optimum time. Or at least such has often been the advice on this forum. I don't know the answer. That issue is already being taken over as a political tool for cheap votes as evidenced in the header is not encouraging, nor do I think it will work.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,914
    felix said:

    I have listened and read a ,ot of commnets on the 'vigil' story this w/e. I have found it confusing. Clearly it is very emotive and the police have been pretty cack-handed in the way they've handled the whole thing.My only thought is that the rush to judgement and swift action while in the full glare of very heightened emotions is not always the optimum time. Or at least such has often been the advice on this forum. I don't know the answer. That issue is already being taken over as a political tool for cheap votes as evidenced in the header is not encouraging, nor do I think it will work.

    The smart politicians are waiting for the YouGov poll.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,008

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    The thing is, it’s not even if there is a slowly growing list of clotting reports that might at least make one wonder if there is something to this (even if response is still disproportionate) amid all the criticism and ridicule. Virtually every single new “suspension” is being made with reference to the original reports in Norway and Denmark, whilst making clear that there have been no similar reports in domestic programmes.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,079

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,376
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Soubry is a lawyer, is she not ?

    Do any PB lawyers know what the term means in law ?
    Hard to imagine a meaningful definition that doesn’t include Gavin Williamson.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,426
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    The funny thing is the EMA approved the Oxford/AZN vaccine in full for all ages and have not recommended a stop to it.

    The national agencies are overriding the EMA here.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,784

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    Perhaps this will release a lot more AZ vaccine to places that are just glad to acquire a vaccine at all, whilst the expensive stuff goes to those who can afford it.

    At least such countries won't be able to accuse the UK of sending them a vaccine we wouldn't use ourselves.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,376
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    Yes. They could have put actual poison in a batch of AZN.

    But leaving that aside...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,079
    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    Yes. They could have put actual poison in a batch of AZN.

    But leaving that aside...
    Did they ever trace that woman the people were looking for in connection with the bomb scare at the AstraZeneca factory?

    If I remember correctly, she was described as middle-aged, blonde and speaking with a German accent.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,376
    Chris said:

    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    Yes. They could have put actual poison in a batch of AZN.

    But leaving that aside...
    Did they ever trace that woman the people were looking for in connection with the bomb scare at the AstraZeneca factory?

    If I remember correctly, she was described as middle-aged, blonde and speaking with a German accent.
    Oh well, that narrows it down.

    Unless of course the witnesses were Leyen.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 1,944

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    Who is actually making these decisions, it doesn't seem clear?

    I think part of the problem is that people demand that things are 100% safe and 100% effective, and authorities pander to this impossible childish demand, rather than just being honest from the start and treating people like adults saying:

    "There is no such thing as 100% safe, every medical procedure has some kind of risk" and then put that risk into some kind of perspective by comparing it with other things most people do every day.

    Then they don't have to overreact to the inevitable clusters that are bound to happen when vaccinating millions of people, they can just say of course they are investigating everything while continuing to save lives by vaccinating as fast as possible.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,784
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Some speculation on the previous thread that the Irish pause on AZ will have no practical effect

    In reality, it means 30,000 Irish people will not get an expected jab next week

    https://twitter.com/theskibeagle/status/1371246113680986112?s=21

    That’s quite a lot. If only a fraction of them now catch Covid and 1% of them die, it means several more deaths and multiples of that in hospital. And that’s just one week’s pause in a very small country. This stuff matters.

    Goodnight PB

    And the AZ panic continues to spread through Europe. The latest copycat suspension has now come, in the Netherlands, which has followed Ireland in screaming and passing the buck to the European Medicines Agency, which IIRC has already previously insisted that the vaccine is safe.

    The Dutch authorities have blocked its use for at least a fortnight, and 43,000 pre-existing appointments have been cancelled.
    Even if any of the reported blood disorders could be ascribed to the vp vaccine (and it is very likely indeed that they can’t), delays on such scale, with the current rates of infection in Europe, will directly cause a larger number of death from Covid.

    The precise numbers would take a bit of crunching, but it ought to be obvious to every one of those regulators, who are used to dealing with medical statistics.
    Quite. I think there are serious questions to be asked in this case of these regulators, as to whether these suspensions are being motivated by any real concern for public health, or if it's all a product of peer pressure and/or covering their own arses in the theoretical scenario of any kind of problem being found.

    It looks very much like a domino effect is now happening, with each of these reports of a blood clotting incident, any unexplained death following vaccination, and every suspension by a regulator increasing the pressure on all the remaining countries that are still using AZ to follow suit. It can't be doing any good at all for the hesitancy problem, either.

    And, in the end, all the delays are likely to achieve is longer lockdowns and more deaths. As I said in a previous thread, it's like the rest of Europe has developed this urge to punch itself in the face over and over again, and is finding it increasingly hard to resist.
    First anti-vaccine EU politicians, and now anti-vaccine medical regulators.

    All things considered, could the EU have acted in a more damaging way over vaccines?
    ISTR reading on here that the US and UK between them have greatly increased the world's capacity to produce vaccines.

    I wonder now whether, had we still been in the EU, our part of that global increase would not have happened. It's one thing to think we'd have fallen in with the EU scheme to our own detriment, but quite another to think that all countries would have been fighting over a smaller global supply.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,925
    edited March 15
    Good Morning everybody. I can't match Leon's tales, but on our walk yesterday by the local river my wife and I did see a pair of swans mating. Quite extraordinary antics in the water afterwards.

    And has anyone postulated that the reason for suspicions over AstraZeneca is because many Europeans no longer trust any official statements from the UK. I mean, our present Government has always taken the view that it's word is it's bond hasn't it?


    PS. I now wait to be accused of voyeurism!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,376

    Good Morning everybody. I can't match Leon's tales, but on our walk yesterday by the local river my wife and I did see a pair of swans mating. Quite extraordinary antics in the water afterwards.

    And has anyone postulated that the reason for suspicions over AstraZeneca is because many Europeans no longer trust any official statements from the UK. I mean, our present Government has always taken the view that it's word is it's bond hasn't it?


    PS. I now wait to be accused of voyeurism!

    I trust, your venerable cheerful majesty, that it was the swans that were performing these antics?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,796

    What higher rank can Dick fall to next? MP?

    Dick will rise again.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,925
    edited March 15
    ydoethur said:

    Good Morning everybody. I can't match Leon's tales, but on our walk yesterday by the local river my wife and I did see a pair of swans mating. Quite extraordinary antics in the water afterwards.

    And has anyone postulated that the reason for suspicions over AstraZeneca is because many Europeans no longer trust any official statements from the UK. I mean, our present Government has always taken the view that it's word is it's bond hasn't it?


    PS. I now wait to be accused of voyeurism!

    I trust, your venerable cheerful majesty, that it was the swans that were performing these antics?
    Ah, Ydoethur, as the saying goes, them days is long gone! Sadly!

    It was indeed the happy cob and pen.
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