Has she tweeted in the form of a cryptic crossword clue?
She’s speaking Erse for the benefit of Irish politicians. Alternative definition of Erse - Scottish word meaning idiot, e.g. don’t listen to him, he’s an erse.
Surely in the context of Ireland, eejit is the better description?
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.
It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
There's also a question about what happens in the EU now, in terms of whether their is sufficient unhappiness about the performance of the Commission by the individual countries and by the European Parliament.
If UvL and the vaccines person were to find themselves looking for new roles, it would (a) suggest the EU was doing a better job making its leadership accountable, and (b) allow a reset.
On the other hand, it is more probable that nothing changes at all.
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
As I said, the science is disputed. The fact is, no one can be sure. It is a punt, but one that, to me, seems justified when facing a desperate situation with a more virulent variant, and when you REALLY need to stop more mutations (from more infections)
What Macron did was say everyone basically agreed with him, and the delayed 2nd dose was stupid. Which was stupid, of him. And also plainly wrong.
Remember what the guy from the WHO said early on in the pandemic: "Be fast. Have no regrets. You must be the first mover. The virus will always get you if you don't move quickly."
Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.
Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.
What angle are you going with?
Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.
Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.
How's that?
I'd say the core Remain arguments are:
1) The EU provides a political framework for differences and tensions between European countries to be discussed and resolved peacefully and with the minimum of damage, rather than descending into damaging confrontations. This week being a perfect example of how quickly simple problems can deteriorate to talk of 'war'.
2) The UK because of its geographical position is going to be deeply affected by the EU whether we are in it our out of it. Better to be in it and have some control and protection, than out of it and at its mercy. In the end, the UK is too big to be ignored by the EU but too small to fight back.
You are content that resolving those differences means none of the members getting vaccines in a timely fashion....really you think its worth that?
By May the EU (or the portions where the most are dying) will have caught up with the UK in vaccinations and this early panic will have been forgotten about. The UK will still have one of the highest death rates in the world and a shattered economy as well. Yes the EU have been idiots regarding vaccines but that doesn't change the overall picture.
It's what they are counting on, but it should not be used to ignore the lessons they can learn from their foul up on vaccination, even if we have more to learn on other aspects.
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.
Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.
What angle are you going with?
Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.
Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.
How's that?
I'd say the core Remain arguments are:
1) The EU provides a political framework for differences and tensions between European countries to be discussed and resolved peacefully and with the minimum of damage, rather than descending into damaging confrontations. This week being a perfect example of how quickly simple problems can deteriorate to talk of 'war'.
2) The UK because of its geographical position is going to be deeply affected by the EU whether we are in it our out of it. Better to be in it and have some control and protection, than out of it and at its mercy. In the end, the UK is too big to be ignored by the EU but too small to fight back.
You are content that resolving those differences means none of the members getting vaccines in a timely fashion....really you think its worth that?
By May the EU (or the portions where the most are dying) will have caught up with the UK in vaccinations and this early panic will have been forgotten about. The UK will still have one of the highest death rates in the world and a shattered economy as well. Yes the EU have been idiots regarding vaccines but that doesn't change the overall picture.
May's a hell of a long way away. It was only a matter of weeks ago we had fewer deaths than Italy. We've now got 17,000 more.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.
It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
I thought the same before all this....we should send spare vaccines to countries that cant afford their own
Look this is true. But there is also a clear national interest in the EU beating the virus as quickly as possible.
Not to mention the issue of EU shortfalls leading to Eastern countries in particular falling back into Russian orbit.
There is what is that? Dont quote immigration as half our immigrants come from the third world...dont quote tourism as most of are tourists aren't from europe...They just happen to be near is all we don't interact with them all that much
I was thinking more of our own citizens having a penchant for holidaying abroad...
Simple you just say holiday in the eu you quarantine for 2 weeks holiday in ghana which we have vaccinated you dont need to.....gives the third world an income boost at the same time
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Lol - i'm not sure she's completely conceded the argument over the AZ contract
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Lol - i'm not sure she's completely conceded the argument over the AZ contract
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Have they repealed their export authorization rules? Don't think so until they do its just the vapid words of a stupid woman
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Jesus. So the EU soiled itself in public, for no benefit whatsoever?
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
Does anyone have a table or source for how much each country (and the EU) have pledged for Covax?
I can see funding things on the Gavi website but they're massive and apply to Gavi, not specifically Covax.
One would expect most Covax donations to be from individual EU member states, because international development is about 95% member states, 5% the EU.
Remember, the EU's budget is still pretty tiny compared to even a small country's.
Whether individual states have been generous or not, is another question.
(The French are, of course, famous for saying things like "Here! Have €500m for vaccines. But you'll need to buy them all from Valneva SA. And they'll all be at list price.")
Brexit threatens the peace process for 5 years...the EU for 5 hours. Get some perspective.
People are focusing on this one today because it happened today. It's not a lack of perspective to react to something literally as it is happening. Nor do wrongs elsewhere make wrong here, right.
It's like if people brought up BLM riots whilst the rioters on 6 January were still storming through Congress - yes, that's an issue too, but this one is currently happening, so it may be time to think about this one at the moment.
It's part of what I like to think of as the overreaction to reaction response - when people seek to forestall a reaction to events, by claiming it would be an overeaction.
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
AZ Foxy.
I was speaking of the Pfizer manufacturer. AZN did have a 12 week interval in their Cov002 arm, so there is published data on it.
I see that the J and J vaccine in a single dose does work, but with a lower success rate of 66%. That sounds fairly comparable with the other vaccines in single dose form, and I wonder if that one also would work better with a booster. If we want to suppress the virus completely, then we need vaccines with efficacy rates like Pfizer and Moderna.
Right, now everyone's jumped on the anti-EU bandwagon, I've decided to switch sides.
Frankly, it's no fun being a member of a crowd.
What angle are you going with?
Oh, I'm going to keep it simple.
Frankly, for the first time, the EU is genuinely thinking of its citizens, and how it can make sure they have the essential vaccines they need. I'm just glad they're finally thinking of the people, and not just looking after big corporations.
How's that?
I'd say the core Remain arguments are:
1) The EU provides a political framework for differences and tensions between European countries to be discussed and resolved peacefully and with the minimum of damage, rather than descending into damaging confrontations. This week being a perfect example of how quickly simple problems can deteriorate to talk of 'war'.
2) The UK because of its geographical position is going to be deeply affected by the EU whether we are in it our out of it. Better to be in it and have some control and protection, than out of it and at its mercy. In the end, the UK is too big to be ignored by the EU but too small to fight back.
You are content that resolving those differences means none of the members getting vaccines in a timely fashion....really you think its worth that?
By May the EU (or the portions where the most are dying) will have caught up with the UK in vaccinations and this early panic will have been forgotten about. The UK will still have one of the highest death rates in the world and a shattered economy as well. Yes the EU have been idiots regarding vaccines but that doesn't change the overall picture.
It's what they are counting on, but it should not be used to ignore the lessons they can learn from their foul up on vaccination, even if we have more to learn on other aspects.
Of course the EU should learn from their mistake although they probably won't. However the vaccine foul-up doesn't really change the benefits / negatives of Brexit.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Indeed. Companies and countries don’t have to have said anything publicly to have noted what was said by the EU and concluded they now trust it less.
Does anyone have a table or source for how much each country (and the EU) have pledged for Covax?
I can see funding things on the Gavi website but they're massive and apply to Gavi, not specifically Covax.
One would expect most Covax donations to be from individual EU member states, because international development is about 95% member states, 5% the EU.
Remember, the EU's budget is still pretty tiny compared to even a small country's.
Whether individual states have been generous or not, is another question.
(The French are, of course, famous for saying things like "Here! Have €500m for vaccines. But you'll need to buy them all from Valneva SA. And they'll all be at list price.")
Germany I believe have given the most...richer than us....bigger than us...they gave 100 mill we gave 500 with a promise of extra funding of 4$ gets you a 1$ from us up to a further 250 mill
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Jesus. So the EU soiled itself in public, for no benefit whatsoever?
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
They have.
They shat the bed. Then they realised the consequences. Then they walked it back.
But in doing so, they (a) appear an unreliable partner to pharma companies and (b) pissed off an ally.
In a sane world, UvdL would resign, as would the EU's vaccines chief. And the new people would start over.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Have they repealed their export authorization rules? Don't think so until they do its just the vapid words of a stupid woman
Agreed. But,.stupid can have convex or concave genitalia.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Have they repealed their export authorization rules? Don't think so until they do its just the vapid words of a stupid woman
"no restrictions on the export of vaccines... fulfilling contractual requirements" is pretty unambiguous.
It's a massive (and welcome) walk back. But it should never have been necessary.
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
AZ Foxy.
I was speaking of the Pfizer manufacturer. AZN did have a 12 week interval in their Cov002 arm, so there is published data on it.
I see that the J and J vaccine in a single dose does work, but with a lower success rate of 66%. That sounds fairly comparable with the other vaccines in single dose form, and I wonder if that one also would work better with a booster. If we want to suppress the virus completely, then we need vaccines with efficacy rates like Pfizer and Moderna.
For now Pfizer recommend three weeks.
The WHO are involved with the UK's 12 week program now and are very interested now in making this the WHO advice worldwide.
It was a very good idea by the UK scientists that should save thousands of lives in the UK, and possibly tens or hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Jesus. So the EU soiled itself in public, for no benefit whatsoever?
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
They have.
They shat the bed. Then they realised the consequences. Then they walked it back.
But in doing so, they (a) appear an unreliable partner to pharma companies and (b) pissed off an ally.
In a sane world, UvdL would resign, as would the EU's vaccines chief. And the new people would start over.
Sadly, to date, the EU has not worked like that.
And you didn't even mention hero of the antivaxers, Manny Macron.
Has anyone ever suggested electing the EU executive? It would undoubtedly be messy holding such a vote in 27 countries, but perhaps better than not being elected at all.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Have they repealed their export authorization rules? Don't think so until they do its just the vapid words of a stupid woman
Agreed. But,.stupid can have convex or concave genitalia.
I wasnt suggesting she was stupid because she was a woman I was suggesting she was stupid and coincidentally happened to be a woman. If it had been barnier doing it I would have equally said stupid man
If the next poll like the one in the header were done right now, I'd predict 50 50 EU support/oppose.
Two weeks from now I reckon 60 40 in favour of the UK.
Anyone else fancy a guess?
If the EU walk this back and don't block UK vaccines, I don't think it will cut through. At the moment, to the casual observer it is a lot of noise about the EU shouting at a drug company about contracts.
If they do block them, then it becomes very emotive and even those that don't follow things closely will notice as they hear Granny has had their jab cancelled.
Does anyone have a table or source for how much each country (and the EU) have pledged for Covax?
I can see funding things on the Gavi website but they're massive and apply to Gavi, not specifically Covax.
One would expect most Covax donations to be from individual EU member states, because international development is about 95% member states, 5% the EU.
Remember, the EU's budget is still pretty tiny compared to even a small country's.
Whether individual states have been generous or not, is another question.
(The French are, of course, famous for saying things like "Here! Have €500m for vaccines. But you'll need to buy them all from Valneva SA. And they'll all be at list price.")
Germany I believe have given the most...richer than us....bigger than us...they gave 100 mill we gave 500 with a promise of extra funding of 4$ gets you a 1$ from us up to a further 250 mill
Oh we've been very generous, and I applaud that.
I'm just pointing out that the EU's total budget is simply not that large (€160bn or so) compared to the budgets of its members (around €3 trillion), and therefore one would expect the vast bulk of Covax donations (if they were to come) to be from the member states and not the EU itself.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.
It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
There's also a question about what happens in the EU now, in terms of whether their is sufficient unhappiness about the performance of the Commission by the individual countries and by the European Parliament.
If UvL and the vaccines person were to find themselves looking for new roles, it would (a) suggest the EU was doing a better job making its leadership accountable, and (b) allow a reset.
On the other hand, it is more probable that nothing changes at all.
Yes, to look at it from a europhile perspective, this utter shitshow might actually be the vital spur to reform that the EU so urgently needs.
If 2/3 of the EU parliament agree, they can throw out the Commission (at least I think so, EU "democracy" is so opaque).
There can surely be no better moment than now. The EU bigwigs have monumentally fucked up. At a critical moment. This is Neville Chamberlain style stuff. This is the moment Cromwell walks into the Commons and says I Beseech Thee, Go.
It could be galvanising,
As a UK Leaver, I could be tempted to rejoin a vastly reformed yet looser, less arrogant and truly democratic EU. If anything might midwife this EU into existence, it is surely the events that transpired this week.
I am not overly optimistic. But, we shall see. As a proud son of European civilisation, I hope it happens. As a skeptical Brit who has too-long despaired of the EU as it actually is, I am not wagering any money on the optimal outcome
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Jesus. So the EU soiled itself in public, for no benefit whatsoever?
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
They have.
They shat the bed. Then they realised the consequences. Then they walked it back.
But in doing so, they (a) appear an unreliable partner to pharma companies and (b) pissed off an ally.
In a sane world, UvdL would resign, as would the EU's vaccines chief. And the new people would start over.
Sadly, to date, the EU has not worked like that.
(c) pissed off a neighbour and ally who have rights to hundreds of millions of doses - and whose country manufactures many millions of doses a week.
A phonecall from VDL to Boris earlier this week saying "can you help please?" probably would have played out far better than this farce!
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Have they repealed their export authorization rules? Don't think so until they do its just the vapid words of a stupid woman
Agreed. But,.stupid can have convex or concave genitalia.
I wasnt suggesting she was stupid because she was a woman I was suggesting she was stupid and coincidentally happened to be a woman. If it had been barnier doing it I would have equally said stupid man
Fair enough. Kinda regretted posting that as I did it. It was provoked by something else not to do with you or this board. I ought not to project like that.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Have they repealed their export authorization rules? Don't think so until they do its just the vapid words of a stupid woman
"no restrictions on the export of vaccines... fulfilling contractual requirements" is pretty unambiguous.
It's a massive (and welcome) walk back. But it should never have been necessary.
Then they should have no issue repealing the regulation should they...until they do I don't believe them
Three cheers to OGH. He's never hidden his pro-EU views but has a sense of humour
I believe OGH has had his first Pfizer ... but not his second. (Happy to be corrected)
Clearly, those who had one Pfizer need the second in due course.
They can't be given the second dose of a different vaccine.
So, disruption of supplies by "our friends in the EU" may still cause problems -- even if we have plenty of other vaccines.
There is no particular reason that the Pfizer second dose needs also to be Pfizer. Obviously no such regime has yet been trialled, but neither has the Pfizer with a 12 week gap, so they are equally evidence free.
It is not so applicable to RNA vaccines, but those with a viral vector such as AZN may well work better with a different vaccine as booster. There is an AZN/Sputnik combination trial for example.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
That is a sweeping climb down.
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
Have they repealed their export authorization rules? Don't think so until they do its just the vapid words of a stupid woman
Agreed. But,.stupid can have convex or concave genitalia.
I wasnt suggesting she was stupid because she was a woman I was suggesting she was stupid and coincidentally happened to be a woman. If it had been barnier doing it I would have equally said stupid man
Fair enough. Kinda regretted posting that as I did it. It was provoked by something else not to do with you or this board. I ought not to project like that.
No problem I can see why you might have taken it the way you did
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Lol - i'm not sure she's completely conceded the argument over the AZ contract
If the threats to block the UK's orders have been rescinded then that's the main thing - provided that the EU's position doesn't change again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. After recent events one could be forgiven for wondering what on Earth they might come out with next.
If the legal opinions we've all read are anything like accurate then there shouldn't be any issues with the AZ supply either. If it goes to court that should hopefully take long enough not to make any practical difference to Britain's rollout, and in any event the consensus would appear to be that the Commission's case is slim to non-existent.
Working constructively with us will depend on how generous the UK Government is feeling as much as the attitude of the EU. Being put on an export control list for products for which the Commission was prepared to offer exempt access to Syria is a major insult. We will, of course, deal with them because we have to, but for one thing I should imagine that if there was any plan to let the Commission's "ambassador" in London have his red carpet treatment and Zoom call with the Queen, then that's just been cast into today's dumpster fire.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Jesus. So the EU soiled itself in public, for no benefit whatsoever?
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
Yep. The toddler having a tantrum in Aisle 3 pulled down a massive stack of baked beans. And didn't even get a bag of chocolate buttons.
They have burned through a vast amount of political capital - and not got a single extra jab from it. Damn it, even generals and bishops can't get vaccinated. It's that much of a failure.
If this was a company, the CEO would now be out the door to try and make it look you were doing SOMETHING to raise the share price off the floor. But of course, this is not a company. It is not a functioning democracy that will force the boss out. It is the EU. A swan which has to be seen to sail serenely through any shit-storm. "No, you are quite mistaken, my feathers are still a pristine white."
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
As I said, the science is disputed. The fact is, no one can be sure. It is a punt, but one that, to me, seems justified when facing a desperate situation with a more virulent variant, and when you REALLY need to stop more mutations (from more infections)
What Macron did was say everyone basically agreed with him, and the delayed 2nd dose was stupid. Which was stupid, of him. And also plainly wrong.
The CDC and Canada say 6 weeks at the latest, in extremis. As indeed do the BMA and WHO, based upon the maximum dosage interval of 42 days in the Pfizer trials.
We should find out by March how the risk of a 12 week gap works out. Of course in April, a great deal of capacity will be needed for second jabs, as the 12 weeks will be up.
If the next poll like the one in the header were done right now, I'd predict 50 50 EU support/oppose.
Two weeks from now I reckon 60 40 in favour of the UK.
Anyone else fancy a guess?
If the EU walk this back and don't block UK vaccines, I don't think it will cut through. At the moment, to the casual observer it is a lot of noise about the EU shouting at a drug company about contracts.
If they do block them, then it becomes very emotive and even those that don't follow things closely will notice as they hear Granny has had their jab cancelled.
I reckon that this EU lunacy will have already cut through to enough of those nerdy enough to do the polls to make a difference in the polling.
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Jesus. So the EU soiled itself in public, for no benefit whatsoever?
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
It must be galling for UVDL to realise she is stupider than Bojo!
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
As I said, the science is disputed. The fact is, no one can be sure. It is a punt, but one that, to me, seems justified when facing a desperate situation with a more virulent variant, and when you REALLY need to stop more mutations (from more infections)
What Macron did was say everyone basically agreed with him, and the delayed 2nd dose was stupid. Which was stupid, of him. And also plainly wrong.
The CDC and Canada say 6 weeks at the latest, in extremis. As indeed do the BMA and WHO, based upon the maximum dosage interval of 42 days in the Pfizer trials.
We should find out by March how the risk of a 12 week gap works out. Of course in April, a great deal of capacity will be needed for second jabs, as the 12 weeks will be up.
If in March we realise its saved thousands of lives and the WHO says that it should be followed worldwide, what would you think about that?
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Can Ireland definitely take a load of vaccine from us without having to redistribute it amongst their EU fellows?
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Jesus. So the EU soiled itself in public, for no benefit whatsoever?
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
They have.
They shat the bed. Then they realised the consequences. Then they walked it back.
But in doing so, they (a) appear an unreliable partner to pharma companies and (b) pissed off an ally.
In a sane world, UvdL would resign, as would the EU's vaccines chief. And the new people would start over.
Sadly, to date, the EU has not worked like that.
(c) pissed off a neighbour and ally who have rights to hundreds of millions of doses - and whose country manufactures many millions of doses a week.
A phonecall from VDL to Boris earlier this week saying "can you help please?" probably would have played out far better than this farce!
Of course it would - but they had to try to bully - now fuck them.
Thatchers interest in the micro-computer industry was laughed at by the Mandarins who knew that the mini-computer market was where things would happen.
I occasionally think wistfully of the Prime 550 I learnt to code FORTRAN on.....
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Can Ireland definitely take a load of vaccine from us without having to redistribute it amongst their EU fellows?
Ask Germany
They seem to have their own private order ** solidarity **
One other key point. Thank Christ Cummings/Caine were out. Not nasty counter-briefings. No vitriolic texts to journalists. We just sat back and let the EU implode.
BREAKING NEW - Ranks for Members of new US Space Force effective Feb 1. Despite plea by William Shatner and previous US House vote, instead of using ranks based on US Navy, the USSF will use ranks based on US Army.
One reason (aside from inter-service rivalry within US military) is that Pentagon brass made commitment to gender-neutral ranks. Which left out "spaceman" along the lines of "airman" and "seaman".
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Can Ireland definitely take a load of vaccine from us without having to redistribute it amongst their EU fellows?
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Can Ireland definitely take a load of vaccine from us without having to redistribute it amongst their EU fellows?
Ask Germany
They seem to have their own private order ** solidarity **
I'd imagine it's harder for the EU to bully Germany than it is for them to bully Ireland, especially if Ireland were being helped by the UK.
If the next poll like the one in the header were done right now, I'd predict 50 50 EU support/oppose.
Two weeks from now I reckon 60 40 in favour of the UK.
Anyone else fancy a guess?
If the EU walk this back and don't block UK vaccines, I don't think it will cut through. At the moment, to the casual observer it is a lot of noise about the EU shouting at a drug company about contracts.
If they do block them, then it becomes very emotive and even those that don't follow things closely will notice as they hear Granny has had their jab cancelled.
Of course, it doesn't make an iota of difference what the British public thinks - the significance the EU has in British politics is now completely zero. Maybe we'll think about re-joining at some distant time in the future, but by then you'll have to look up this week's story about vaccines on Wikipedia, if it even warrants an entry.
If the next poll like the one in the header were done right now, I'd predict 50 50 EU support/oppose.
Two weeks from now I reckon 60 40 in favour of the UK.
Anyone else fancy a guess?
If the EU walk this back and don't block UK vaccines, I don't think it will cut through. At the moment, to the casual observer it is a lot of noise about the EU shouting at a drug company about contracts.
If they do block them, then it becomes very emotive and even those that don't follow things closely will notice as they hear Granny has had their jab cancelled.
Indeed. We always have to bear in mind during the course of these discussions that we are all atypically interested in current events.
A minority of people will pay some attention, for many others it is barely noticed background noise, and still more will be completely clueless. A meaningful fraction of the population won't even know who the Prime Minister is.
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
There is no particular reason that the EU will need help from the UK. They have over 2 billion vaccine doses on order too, so should have loads, even without the Sanofi-GSK which didn't work out. I expect though we will get further arguments over delivery targets.
"Contracts have been concluded with AstraZeneca (400 million doses), Sanofi-GSK (300 million doses), Johnson and Johnson (400 million doses ), BioNTech-Pfizer 600 million doses, CureVac (405 million doses) and Moderna (160 million doses). The Commission has concluded exploratory talks with the pharmaceutical company Novavax with a view to purchasing up to 200 million doses and with Valneva with a view to purchase up to 60 million doses."
Aside from timing, the biggest problem is the lack of a delivery program. Quite a few countries seem to have thought that they would order vaccines, they show up and then it's just another medicine to be pushed out by national healthcare systems. So they need to build that.
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
AZ Foxy.
I was speaking of the Pfizer manufacturer. AZN did have a 12 week interval in their Cov002 arm, so there is published data on it.
I see that the J and J vaccine in a single dose does work, but with a lower success rate of 66%. That sounds fairly comparable with the other vaccines in single dose form, and I wonder if that one also would work better with a booster. If we want to suppress the virus completely, then we need vaccines with efficacy rates like Pfizer and Moderna.
For now Pfizer recommend three weeks.
The WHO are involved with the UK's 12 week program now and are very interested now in making this the WHO advice worldwide.
It was a very good idea by the UK scientists that should save thousands of lives in the UK, and possibly tens or hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.
Like I have repeatedly said, it is a gamble that may well work out, and in effect the UK is involved in a massive trial. Fortunately this virus seems particularly sensitive to vaccines.
Good night all. Busy on ICU redeployment tommorow.
BREAKING NEW - Ranks for Members of new US Space Force effective Feb 1. Despite plea by William Shatner and previous US House vote, instead of using ranks based on US Navy, the USSF will use ranks based on US Army.
One reason (aside from inter-service rivalry within US military) is that Pentagon brass made commitment to gender-neutral ranks. Which left out "spaceman" along the lines of "airman" and "seaman".
If the next poll like the one in the header were done right now, I'd predict 50 50 EU support/oppose.
Two weeks from now I reckon 60 40 in favour of the UK.
Anyone else fancy a guess?
52:48
I do not think this news will have swayed public opinion on the EU greatly, in the overall figures. It has all happened too fast, and has been overshadowed by Covid, and the EU's very public pants-wetting has been quickly followed by a quick if embarrassing change of underwear,
However, people who are politically clued-up will have noticed. Hardcore eurosceptics will feel utterly vindicated, and invigorated, soft europhiles will be thinking Hmm., that's not great, I wonder.....
It will reinforce a rather slow erosion of the Rejoin urge. It was bound to erode anyway, but this will accelerate it.
We ain't ever going back in. EEA is the best Rejoiners should aim for, if they so wish to dedicate their lives.
And now I must abed. Night night, sweet PB, night night.
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Can Ireland definitely take a load of vaccine from us without having to redistribute it amongst their EU fellows?
Ask Germany
They seem to have their own private order ** solidarity **
I'd imagine it's harder for the EU to bully Germany than it is for them to bully Ireland, especially if Ireland were being helped by the UK.
No, if Eire were being helped by the UK then they can't really be bullied. They can just say they no longer need doses from the EU's scheme and that the Irish doses from the EU scheme can be redistributed to the other 26.
BREAKING NEW - Ranks for Members of new US Space Force effective Feb 1. Despite plea by William Shatner and previous US House vote, instead of using ranks based on US Navy, the USSF will use ranks based on US Army.
One reason (aside from inter-service rivalry within US military) is that Pentagon brass made commitment to gender-neutral ranks. Which left out "spaceman" along the lines of "airman" and "seaman".
Tbf. If one person in the Cabinet ought to have known about vaccine progress, it would be the Health Secretary. I wouldn't really have expected the Minister for Culture, Media and Sport to have been wading through the complex, possibly commercially confidential reports on preliminary trials. Although busy work for Williamson might have been less damaging.
One final thing though. Friday was the anniversary of the NEJM papers on the virus. In retrospect, it was pretty much all there from the beginning. "r" rates, airborne spread, person to person spread, case fatality rates and risk factors. Note the date on the tweet.
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
When he said that the AZ vaccine was “quasi-ineffective” in over 65s?
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
When he said that the AZ vaccine was “quasi-ineffective” in over 65s?
I was referring to single dose. I don't think there is enough evidence yet to state with certainty how effective AZN is in the elderly.
BREAKING NEW - Ranks for Members of new US Space Force effective Feb 1. Despite plea by William Shatner and previous US House vote, instead of using ranks based on US Navy, the USSF will use ranks based on US Army.
One reason (aside from inter-service rivalry within US military) is that Pentagon brass made commitment to gender-neutral ranks. Which left out "spaceman" along the lines of "airman" and "seaman".
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
When he said that the AZ vaccine was “quasi-ineffective” in over 65s?
Foxy has clearly, and very sadly, lost the plot.
He couches his "arguments" in medical and scientific sounding language, but he's defending anti vax lunatic Macron.
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
When he said that the AZ vaccine was “quasi-ineffective” in over 65s?
If the next poll like the one in the header were done right now, I'd predict 50 50 EU support/oppose.
Two weeks from now I reckon 60 40 in favour of the UK.
Anyone else fancy a guess?
52:48
I do not think this news will have swayed public opinion on the EU greatly, in the overall figures. It has all happened too fast, and has been overshadowed by Covid, and the EU's very public pants-wetting has been quickly followed by a quick if embarrassing change of underwear,
However, people who are politically clued-up will have noticed. Hardcore eurosceptics will feel utterly vindicated, and invigorated, soft europhiles will be thinking Hmm., that's not great, I wonder.....
It will reinforce a rather slow erosion of the Rejoin urge. It was bound to erode anyway, but this will accelerate it.
We ain't ever going back in. EEA is the best Rejoiners should aim for, if they so wish to dedicate their lives.
And now I must abed. Night night, sweet PB, night night.
Well yes. I have been busy so not really following. It is complex and technical. The behaviour of the EU has been so ridiculous that those so inclined probably won't believe it anyways. Such is where we are.
BREAKING NEW - Ranks for Members of new US Space Force effective Feb 1. Despite plea by William Shatner and previous US House vote, instead of using ranks based on US Navy, the USSF will use ranks based on US Army.
One reason (aside from inter-service rivalry within US military) is that Pentagon brass made commitment to gender-neutral ranks. Which left out "spaceman" along the lines of "airman" and "seaman".
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Lol - i'm not sure she's completely conceded the argument over the AZ contract
If the threats to block the UK's orders have been rescinded then that's the main thing - provided that the EU's position doesn't change again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. After recent events one could be forgiven for wondering what on Earth they might come out with next.
If the legal opinions we've all read are anything like accurate then there shouldn't be any issues with the AZ supply either. If it goes to court that should hopefully take long enough not to make any practical difference to Britain's rollout, and in any event the consensus would appear to be that the Commission's case is slim to non-existent.
Working constructively with us will depend on how generous the UK Government is feeling as much as the attitude of the EU. Being put on an export control list for products for which the Commission was prepared to offer exempt access to Syria is a major insult. We will, of course, deal with them because we have to, but for one thing I should imagine that if there was any plan to let the Commission's "ambassador" in London have his red carpet treatment and Zoom call with the Queen, then that's just been cast into today's dumpster fire.
It seems to me that the list of exemptions/non-exemptions is perhaps the key thing to come out of this.
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Can Ireland definitely take a load of vaccine from us without having to redistribute it amongst their EU fellows?
One final thing though. Friday was the anniversary of the NEJM papers on the virus. In retrospect, it was pretty much all there from the beginning. "r" rates, airborne spread, person to person spread, case fatality rates and risk factors. Note the date on the tweet.
Even on a day like today, when already bungled themselves into vaccine hole, EU dug it infinitely deeper almost creating a land border in Ireland (yes, serious mistake) before they backtracked making themselves a laughing stock, yet there is still no reason to get emotive about how we can and should help Europe nations in their hour of crisis.
My reasoning is this.
It’s not that all the difficult decisions have been made and it’s some sort of game set and match here. COVID crisis still has a long way to run. It’s not just preventing hospitalisation and death to aim for, but restrict transmissions, and as newer vaccines come along, some actually based on COVID itself, they may be better at one or the other, or just all round better than what you have stockpiled and still jabbing away with. Also now the need to be innovative with the range of weaponry, mix and matching to try to find the optimum delivery. It leads to more crucial decisions yet to be taken.
That’s why I say do what you can to avoid Vaccine Nationalism. UK to foster as big a coalition of cooperation and support as it can - ignore how or why EU have crisis, simply recognise crisis on our doorstep, and talk and explore how we can help them with it, without too much detriment to ourselves.
Because at some point before this is over, we may yet need help in return.
It looks likely that the Government is going to be left with a vast surplus of vaccines before this is all done. They have dodged the question earlier today of what they intend to do once phase one of the JCVI scheme is complete, which might not take very long at all at the current rate of progress. I dare say that the Government would've been happy to help the EU, amongst other parties. If they don't completely wreck our friendship by seizing all the UK's Pfizer orders then the UK Government probably will still help them.
But how is the UK Government meant to find the political room to do anything to help in the first place if this rotten lot treat us as the enemy? Look at the enormous list of exemptions on their export control list, and then look at who isn't exempted. Then also take a look at the noises off that have come from their side, not just attacking AstraZeneca for the dreadful failing of not being able to deliver enough of a vaccine that the European Commission ordered far too late, but also foaming on about the UK showing insufficient solidarity, or wanting to start a vaccine war, or whatever other fictitious, bullshit accusation springs to mind.
God alone knows the British Government is very far from bloody perfect, but in this case the entire fault for today's collective nervous breakdown lies at the door of the EU. They've done the sabre rattling, they've issued the threats, they've treated us as the enemy. All because they're looking for a scapegoat to try to obscure their own mistakes, and have decided that the UK is the best candidate available.
I know that the European Commission and the member state politicians alike are facing a disaster and they're desperate, but beating us over the head, as a displacement activity to avoid having to confront their own liability, isn't on. We can help them, but first they need to back the Hell off.
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
The CTA is a good reason
If it is true that there is a very nasty 3rd wave on the way and that is what has EU countries spooked then I think it would be a matter of self preservation to get the whole island of Ireland jabbed as fast as possible.
But that is an almost secondary reason. Eire shares these islands with us and I think that in itself is as good a reason as any to help them out. I am not convinced that the rest of the EU can or will look out for them. It is a matter of common decency that we do.
To be honest if the amount of vaccine coming down the line is anything like what is expected we would be able to get Ireland jabbed and meet or even exceed our commitments under COVAX without to much of a problem.
And we should do, not because of Imperial guilt, or self preservation or even self promotion but because it is simply the right thing to do.
I entirely agree. But are Ireland allowed by the EU to take our vaccine? Would they want it after the President of France rubbished it?
Yes they are. It is what makes this whole debacle so sad. Any country in the EU could have chosen to make their own vaccine arrangements and they still can. But they almost all chose to delegate that authority to the EU. Some have now thought better of it - Hungary for example is getting its vaccine from Russia. Ireland could very easily accept vaccines from the UK if it had the political will and the need to do so.
Can Ireland definitely take a load of vaccine from us without having to redistribute it amongst their EU fellows?
There is zero reasons to help europeans they can afford their own...all our surplus should go to the third world countries that cant afford to immunize their people
It's a difficult one. On the one hand the EU deserves no co-operation at all after today's events. On the other, (a) this is the fault of the politicians not the people, and (b) we don't want to end up as a ramshackle fort surrounded by plague ravaged badlands, like the besieged survivors in a zombie horror flick.
It's probably a good idea to be pragmatic, although this is also an object lesson in why this country should aim to build relationships with the rest of the world as fast as possible. Just as, when Ireland joined the EEC, Dublin viewed it as an opportunity to reduce its dependence on Britain, so Britain should view Brexit as an opportunity to reduce its reliance on Europe.
There's also a question about what happens in the EU now, in terms of whether their is sufficient unhappiness about the performance of the Commission by the individual countries and by the European Parliament.
If UvL and the vaccines person were to find themselves looking for new roles, it would (a) suggest the EU was doing a better job making its leadership accountable, and (b) allow a reset.
On the other hand, it is more probable that nothing changes at all.
Yes, to look at it from a europhile perspective, this utter shitshow might actually be the vital spur to reform that the EU so urgently needs.
It might be a spur to reform, but it won't be the reform the EU needs.
The changes that come out of it will be more bureaucracy and more power and control for the EU. That's what the EU means by "reform".
"Anti-lockdown demos in the Netherlands this week have generated many shocking images. But there is one that may yet become iconic.
During a protest against the imposition of a nationwide 9pm curfew in Eindhoven last Sunday, a police truck turned its water cannon on a young woman who was hurled against a concrete wall so hard that she appeared to bounce off it.
She slumped to the ground and was photographed with blood pouring down her face. The woman, later named as Denisa Stastna, sustained a fractured skull and a head wound that required more than 15 stitches."
Brexit threatens the peace process for 5 years...the EU for 5 hours. Get some perspective.
I assume you are referring to NI. Despite all the nonsense talked there was never a chance that the UK leaving the EU was going to result a fresh round of trouble to any great degree. Remarkably little comment or suggestion was made by ANY of the Northern Ireland parties about a return to trouble, i.e. no peace. Most of the talk was from external parties.
There is no peace process. It ended a long time ago. There is a political process and people particularly on the outside need to get over themselves by this constant referral to the peace process. NI has devolution and and it has a political system, flawed as it is.
What he has said, in toto, is wildly irresponsible. The science is debatable, but much of it (most of it?) says Yes, a one dose strategy makes good sense, in extremis. This is a pandemic, you can't always do everything by the book, minimising initial infections (with one shot) is the best route, but make sure you re-inject after 12 weeks (which is HMG's plan, AIUI)
Now, fuck knows, maybe it will prove a disaster. But no one can be sure, yet here is President Emmanuel Trump of France making statements which are:1. hugely undermining confidence in the efficacy of a crucial vaccine and 2. claiming a one dose strategy is utterly wrong - and with no scientific consensus supporting him for either claim.
Macron may be a mincing, narcissistic toyboy but he is not stupid.
My guess? - he has been seriously unnerved by that poll showing Le Pen nearly beating him in Round 2, and he has overreacted in an "unhelpful" way
Either that or he is listening to the manufacturer, the FDA and the WHO.
When he said that the AZ vaccine was “quasi-ineffective” in over 65s?
Foxy has clearly, and very sadly, lost the plot.
He couches his "arguments" in medical and scientific sounding language, but he's defending anti vax lunatic Macron.
He should henceforth be ignored.
Come on Fox, you have to be one of Macron's favourite geriatric women to believe that he's worth defending in any way at the moment. You're seriously embarrassing yourself by doing so.
BREAKING NEW - Ranks for Members of new US Space Force effective Feb 1. Despite plea by William Shatner and previous US House vote, instead of using ranks based on US Navy, the USSF will use ranks based on US Army.
One reason (aside from inter-service rivalry within US military) is that Pentagon brass made commitment to gender-neutral ranks. Which left out "spaceman" along the lines of "airman" and "seaman".
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
Lol - i'm not sure she's completely conceded the argument over the AZ contract
If the threats to block the UK's orders have been rescinded then that's the main thing - provided that the EU's position doesn't change again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. After recent events one could be forgiven for wondering what on Earth they might come out with next.
If the legal opinions we've all read are anything like accurate then there shouldn't be any issues with the AZ supply either. If it goes to court that should hopefully take long enough not to make any practical difference to Britain's rollout, and in any event the consensus would appear to be that the Commission's case is slim to non-existent.
Working constructively with us will depend on how generous the UK Government is feeling as much as the attitude of the EU. Being put on an export control list for products for which the Commission was prepared to offer exempt access to Syria is a major insult. We will, of course, deal with them because we have to, but for one thing I should imagine that if there was any plan to let the Commission's "ambassador" in London have his red carpet treatment and Zoom call with the Queen, then that's just been cast into today's dumpster fire.
It seems to me that the list of exemptions/non-exemptions is perhaps the key thing to come out of this.
As I understand the regulation hasn't been rescinded its just vdl saying she didnt mean it. Belgium I believe is already in the process of setting up a regulatory authority
Comments
If UvL and the vaccines person were to find themselves looking for new roles, it would (a) suggest the EU was doing a better job making its leadership accountable, and (b) allow a reset.
On the other hand, it is more probable that nothing changes at all.
https://twitter.com/drjackyhewitt/status/1239072133700972544
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1355300413197725701
Good. A few more steps backwards to do. First they need to give up the whole nonsense of export 'checks', then issue an abject apology to AZ, and then they can start again with by trying to work constructively with the vaccine manufacturers (and with us, for that matter).
I'm glad to see it, I just wish we hadn't had to go through the insanity first. Because once you've said something, it cannot be unsaid.
https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1355299075223121928
They have gained nothing and the price has been the loss of all credibility. Genius.
Remember, the EU's budget is still pretty tiny compared to even a small country's.
Whether individual states have been generous or not, is another question.
(The French are, of course, famous for saying things like "Here! Have €500m for vaccines. But you'll need to buy them all from Valneva SA. And they'll all be at list price.")
It's like if people brought up BLM riots whilst the rioters on 6 January were still storming through Congress - yes, that's an issue too, but this one is currently happening, so it may be time to think about this one at the moment.
It's part of what I like to think of as the overreaction to reaction response - when people seek to forestall a reaction to events, by claiming it would be an overeaction.
I see that the J and J vaccine in a single dose does work, but with a lower success rate of 66%. That sounds fairly comparable with the other vaccines in single dose form, and I wonder if that one also would work better with a booster. If we want to suppress the virus completely, then we need vaccines with efficacy rates like Pfizer and Moderna.
Which amused my inner 10 year old.
They shat the bed. Then they realised the consequences. Then they walked it back.
But in doing so, they (a) appear an unreliable partner to pharma companies and (b) pissed off an ally.
In a sane world, UvdL would resign, as would the EU's vaccines chief. And the new people would start over.
Sadly, to date, the EU has not worked like that.
But still, who authorised that oversight earlier?
Also, calm, reasonable statements following absurd response to avoid responsibility? It really is Trumpian!
It's a massive (and welcome) walk back. But it should never have been necessary.
Two weeks from now I reckon 60 40 in favour of the UK.
Anyone else fancy a guess?
The WHO are involved with the UK's 12 week program now and are very interested now in making this the WHO advice worldwide.
It was a very good idea by the UK scientists that should save thousands of lives in the UK, and possibly tens or hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide.
If they do block them, then it becomes very emotive and even those that don't follow things closely will notice as they hear Granny has had their jab cancelled.
For some reason the Lib Dem vote is left off the Bar Chart. Mike's version of GODOY is better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l22kHO5jdRU&feature=emb_title
I'm just pointing out that the EU's total budget is simply not that large (€160bn or so) compared to the budgets of its members (around €3 trillion), and therefore one would expect the vast bulk of Covax donations (if they were to come) to be from the member states and not the EU itself.
If 2/3 of the EU parliament agree, they can throw out the Commission (at least I think so, EU "democracy" is so opaque).
There can surely be no better moment than now. The EU bigwigs have monumentally fucked up. At a critical moment. This is Neville Chamberlain style stuff. This is the moment Cromwell walks into the Commons and says I Beseech Thee, Go.
It could be galvanising,
As a UK Leaver, I could be tempted to rejoin a vastly reformed yet looser, less arrogant and truly democratic EU. If anything might midwife this EU into existence, it is surely the events that transpired this week.
I am not overly optimistic. But, we shall see. As a proud son of European civilisation, I hope it happens. As a skeptical Brit who has too-long despaired of the EU as it actually is, I am not wagering any money on the optimal outcome
A phonecall from VDL to Boris earlier this week saying "can you help please?" probably would have played out far better than this farce!
It was provoked by something else not to do with you or this board.
I ought not to project like that.
It is not so applicable to RNA vaccines, but those with a viral vector such as AZN may well work better with a different vaccine as booster. There is an AZN/Sputnik combination trial for example.
If the legal opinions we've all read are anything like accurate then there shouldn't be any issues with the AZ supply either. If it goes to court that should hopefully take long enough not to make any practical difference to Britain's rollout, and in any event the consensus would appear to be that the Commission's case is slim to non-existent.
Working constructively with us will depend on how generous the UK Government is feeling as much as the attitude of the EU. Being put on an export control list for products for which the Commission was prepared to offer exempt access to Syria is a major insult. We will, of course, deal with them because we have to, but for one thing I should imagine that if there was any plan to let the Commission's "ambassador" in London have his red carpet treatment and Zoom call with the Queen, then that's just been cast into today's dumpster fire.
https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1317457902723018755?s=20
They have burned through a vast amount of political capital - and not got a single extra jab from it. Damn it, even generals and bishops can't get vaccinated. It's that much of a failure.
If this was a company, the CEO would now be out the door to try and make it look you were doing SOMETHING to raise the share price off the floor. But of course, this is not a company. It is not a functioning democracy that will force the boss out. It is the EU. A swan which has to be seen to sail serenely through any shit-storm. "No, you are quite mistaken, my feathers are still a pristine white."
We should find out by March how the risk of a 12 week gap works out. Of course in April, a great deal of capacity will be needed for second jabs, as the 12 weeks will be up.
https://twitter.com/ReutersUK/status/1355306010978766848?s=20
I occasionally think wistfully of the Prime 550 I learnt to code FORTRAN on.....
They seem to have their own private order ** solidarity **
One reason (aside from inter-service rivalry within US military) is that Pentagon brass made commitment to gender-neutral ranks. Which left out "spaceman" along the lines of "airman" and "seaman".
https://twitter.com/rachelkaras/status/1355212814617608192/photo/1
Here are my alternative suggestions:
Specialist > Space Filler
Corporal > Space Holder
Sergeant > Space Keeper
Lieutenant > Space Cadet
Captain > Space Voyager
Major > Space Commander
Colonel > Space Captain
1-star General > Space Commodore
2-star General > Space General
3-star General > Space Admiral
4-star General > Space Grand Admiral-Generalissimo
5-star General > Space Cosmic Field Marshall
A minority of people will pay some attention, for many others it is barely noticed background noise, and still more will be completely clueless. A meaningful fraction of the population won't even know who the Prime Minister is.
Good night all. Busy on ICU redeployment tommorow.
https://twitter.com/guardiannews/status/1355306577293680640?s=20
However, people who are politically clued-up will have noticed. Hardcore eurosceptics will feel utterly vindicated, and invigorated, soft europhiles will be thinking Hmm., that's not great, I wonder.....
It will reinforce a rather slow erosion of the Rejoin urge. It was bound to erode anyway, but this will accelerate it.
We ain't ever going back in. EEA is the best Rejoiners should aim for, if they so wish to dedicate their lives.
And now I must abed. Night night, sweet PB, night night.
Or do we believe that they're just showing their colours, and will inevitably fuck up, even more spectacularly, again?
I wouldn't really have expected the Minister for Culture, Media and Sport to have been wading through the complex, possibly commercially confidential reports on preliminary trials.
Although busy work for Williamson might have been less damaging.
https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1222652819179634688?s=09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taM7k2QhJe8
If I could turn back time
If I could find a way
I'd take back those words that've hurt you and you'd stay
He couches his "arguments" in medical and scientific sounding language, but he's defending anti vax lunatic Macron.
He should henceforth be ignored.
The changes that come out of it will be more bureaucracy and more power and control for the EU. That's what the EU means by "reform".
Exactly the opposite of what should happen.
During a protest against the imposition of a nationwide 9pm curfew in Eindhoven last Sunday, a police truck turned its water cannon on a young woman who was hurled against a concrete wall so hard that she appeared to bounce off it.
She slumped to the ground and was photographed with blood pouring down her face. The woman, later named as Denisa Stastna, sustained a fractured skull and a head wound that required more than 15 stitches."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9203323/As-Holland-boils-no-wonder-EU-trying-distract-world-writes-FLEUR-LAUNSPACH.html
There is no peace process. It ended a long time ago. There is a political process and people particularly on the outside need to get over themselves by this constant referral to the peace process. NI has devolution and and it has a political system, flawed as it is.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-55857072
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPf-MRKITg
GameStop ends the day up 68%.