On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
Anecdotal, my mother (mid-60s, shielding list) has her first vaccine booked in for this Friday. Impressed, was expecting March at the earliest.
In Leicester we are doing anyone over 70 or on the shielding list at any age.
My Dad (72) and my better half (shielding list) are both still waiting for the call, although Dad tells me he thinks they're onto cohort 4 round his way - about ten miles down the road from where we live - but that they may have elected to get the shielders jabbed before those in their early 70s. Mother-in-law (81) in Wales has her appointment on Saturday. No word re: Mum & Stepdad in Norfolk yet.
Anyway, the Government still has nearly three weeks to reach its target of getting at least one jab into everyone in cohorts 1-4, so I guess we just have to hunker down and keep waiting patiently.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
This is one reason why it has been so good to see so many mosques and temples offering their space for use in vaccinations. Hopefully this will help to overcome cultural and religious resistance to vaccines. A really good step.
We should quadruple our International Aid budget and vaccinate the third world.
Morally and PR wise it would be the right thing to do.
Brexiteers you can back this as it would annoy the EU so much.
Before you make some cheap point have a look at the facts
We already ARE doing that. Part of the deal with India was at the U.K. govt insistence
As of 13th January the UK had donated £548 million to the COVAX project. More, as it happens, than the whole of the rest of the EU combined. We did this, in part, by making a pledge to match £1 for every £4 donated by other countries whilst donating almost £300 million in addition outside of that pledge.
The EU are a bunch of tight-fisted gits, aren't they?
Its like all the screeching about the reduction in UK aid budget, which will still be more than basically every other country and has been for a long time. The way some reacted it was like the UK is incredibly mean by international standards and always has been.
Yes, it’s a little like those arguing that humans never had any rights in the U.K. before the 1998 human rights act, and that repealing the ‘oversight’ of the ECHR a would be akin to removing all the rights humans have ever had.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
This is the crux of it, the EU cheaped out on funding it's pharma industry to a level where they could be certain of some level of supply and eventual oversupply. The UK and US have gone in the other direction because the worse thing that can happen is we lose a bit of money, and given the £400bn cost of this pandemic it's chump change.
I think that's spot on, and I think is a clear demonstration of the dangers of "managerialism" (and which is a consequence of a distant bloc, lacking decent democratic oversight.)
The issue is probably exacerbated because the EU has historically been buffeted with accusations of not being very good at controlling their spending, and that has probably caused institutional desires not to be seen to overpay for things.
In this particular case, this has led to them being desperately short of vaccines early in the process.
But I'm less pessimistic about how they will do from here than most: not because their performance is going to turn around, but simply because the world is going to have lots of vaccines sooner rather than later. Yes, they'll be two or three months behind us (and that's pretty horrendous), but once availability is there, they'll ramp pretty quickly.
Also, those extra months are likely to be July and August. Even if there were no vaccines anywhere, it's fairly easy to keep infection rates steady and low then in Europe. Furthermore- the saving of lives for a country being vaccinated in early (not late) summer might be less than the cost of botching Christmas/New Year.
If AZ are smart, they'll flex things to get more vaccines to Europe earlier- possibly by running the UK setup a bit hotter. If the EU are smart, they will accept the extra, even if it's not all they want, and turn down the rhetoric. If the UK are smart, they won't moan if some vaccines go from UK factories to the continent for a bit. It might that be us in a jam next time.
The frotters can frot, and the Treasury can work out what to do about the New York is set to have better access to European finances than London. Silly old Wall Street, throwing away sovereignty like that.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
Tooting? You should go to Jaffna House when the current shitshow is over.
I think it's time to ask the opposition and the Lib Dem leaders what their opinion on these events are. Time to put them on the spot about their love of the EU. Would they hand over UK vaccine supplies to placate the EU.
This is the crux of it, the EU cheaped out on funding it's pharma industry to a level where they could be certain of some level of supply and eventual oversupply. The UK and US have gone in the other direction because the worse thing that can happen is we lose a bit of money, and given the £400bn cost of this pandemic it's chump change.
I think that's spot on, and I think is a clear demonstration of the dangers of "managerialism" (and which is a consequence of a distant bloc, lacking decent democratic oversight.)
The issue is probably exacerbated because the EU has historically been buffeted with accusations of not being very good at controlling their spending, and that has probably caused institutional desires not to be seen to overpay for things.
In this particular case, this has led to them being desperately short of vaccines early in the process.
But I'm less pessimistic about how they will do from here than most: not because their performance is going to turn around, but simply because the world is going to have lots of vaccines sooner rather than later. Yes, they'll be two or three months behind us (and that's pretty horrendous), but once availability is there, they'll ramp pretty quickly.
Which is why they'd have been better advised to grit their teeth, not make a meal of it, whilst quietly learning the lessons and trying to mitigate the effects behind the scenes.
Instead they've created a massive high-profile political issue out of it that has undermined confidence in the European Commission, and they've just kept on digging.
The EU *really* needs J&J results out this week, because they are much, much more dependent on it than we are.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
No idea, but the EU's judgements and fines against companies aren't fair - it's almost piracy.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
The effort the UK put into the development and sourcing of vaccines is commendable and worthy of praise, no question, but if we are in a fortunate position we should now be helping those parts of the world, particularly the poorest, for whom vaccine availability and supply are much more of an issue.
Helping to get the vaccine to the poorest in the world is the kind of activity in which I'd be proud to see the UK in the vanguard. It would in so many ways represent the spirit of "global Britain", a real positive force in the world.
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
This is the crux of it, the EU cheaped out on funding it's pharma industry to a level where they could be certain of some level of supply and eventual oversupply. The UK and US have gone in the other direction because the worse thing that can happen is we lose a bit of money, and given the £400bn cost of this pandemic it's chump change.
I think that's spot on, and I think is a clear demonstration of the dangers of "managerialism" (and which is a consequence of a distant bloc, lacking decent democratic oversight.)
The issue is probably exacerbated because the EU has historically been buffeted with accusations of not being very good at controlling their spending, and that has probably caused institutional desires not to be seen to overpay for things.
In this particular case, this has led to them being desperately short of vaccines early in the process.
But I'm less pessimistic about how they will do from here than most: not because their performance is going to turn around, but simply because the world is going to have lots of vaccines sooner rather than later. Yes, they'll be two or three months behind us (and that's pretty horrendous), but once availability is there, they'll ramp pretty quickly.
Which is why they'd have been better advised to grit their teeth, not make a meal of it, whilst quietly learning the lessons and trying to mitigate the effects behind the scenes.
Instead they've created a massive high-profile political issue out of it that has undermined confidence in the European Commission, and they've just kept on digging.
The EU *really* needs J&J results out this week, because they are much, much more dependent on it than we are.
OT - Congratulations to OGH and other PBers, their families & friends (if any!) who are vaccinated OR are scheduled for date certain in not-too-distant future.
For purposes of comparison: > yours truly (somewhat sickly & semi-superannuated) is sched. to receive 1st COVID vaccination (but don't know which one) Feb 3 in Seattle; just double-checked to confirm my appointment is still "operative". > according to my health-provider website, "within 48 hours after receiving your first dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, you will receive a [website] notification that you can schedule your second dose vaccination online. > on the other hand, got a text saying that my provider was NOT making 1st dose appointments "due to lack of vaccine supply" at this time. > according to yesterday's Jan 26 Seattle Times, 5.6% of Washingtonians have gotten 1st dose, and 1.0% the 2nd. > WA State has received 720k vac doses, out of total pop. of 7.8m; of doses received, 500k have been delivered to providers. > Here in King County, the state's largest, total doses given = 8.1% of the population; note that four smaller counties have rates above 10% (highest Clallam = 16.2%) while eight have rates below 4% (lowest Douglas = 0.7%)
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
The effort the UK put into the development and sourcing of vaccines is commendable and worthy of praise, no question, but if we are in a fortunate position we should now be helping those parts of the world, particularly the poorest, for whom vaccine availability and supply are much more of an issue.
Helping to get the vaccine to the poorest in the world is the kind of activity in which I'd be proud to see the UK in the vanguard. It would in so many ways represent the spirit of "global Britain", a real positive force in the world.
The UK has already done a lot to ensure vaccines will be available in the wider world. Far more than the EU, just to name one example totally at random.
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
She's a cunning politician.
France did buy some vaccines outside the EU scheme, so it's also possible that France does better than the rest of the EU... And he get the credit...
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
Of course AZN are in the wrong - if there's a contract and they've failed to deliver upon it then there will be clauses that may be invoked against them. The EU isn't satisfied with that though it seems. The bigger wrong seems to be the EU.
This is the crux of it, the EU cheaped out on funding it's pharma industry to a level where they could be certain of some level of supply and eventual oversupply. The UK and US have gone in the other direction because the worse thing that can happen is we lose a bit of money, and given the £400bn cost of this pandemic it's chump change.
I think that's spot on, and I think is a clear demonstration of the dangers of "managerialism" (and which is a consequence of a distant bloc, lacking decent democratic oversight.)
The issue is probably exacerbated because the EU has historically been buffeted with accusations of not being very good at controlling their spending, and that has probably caused institutional desires not to be seen to overpay for things.
In this particular case, this has led to them being desperately short of vaccines early in the process.
But I'm less pessimistic about how they will do from here than most: not because their performance is going to turn around, but simply because the world is going to have lots of vaccines sooner rather than later. Yes, they'll be two or three months behind us (and that's pretty horrendous), but once availability is there, they'll ramp pretty quickly.
Which is why they'd have been better advised to grit their teeth, not make a meal of it, whilst quietly learning the lessons and trying to mitigate the effects behind the scenes.
Instead they've created a massive high-profile political issue out of it that has undermined confidence in the European Commission, and they've just kept on digging.
The EU *really* needs J&J results out this week, because they are much, much more dependent on it than we are.
When did they order their J&J?
After us, two months later iirc.
Yes, it was us first, the EU second and the US third.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
She's a cunning politician.
France did buy some vaccines outside the EU scheme, so it's also possible that France does better than the rest of the EU... And he get the credit...
Didn't they buy extra Sanofi and Merck ones though? Both of them are now in the fail category.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
This is the crux of it, the EU cheaped out on funding it's pharma industry to a level where they could be certain of some level of supply and eventual oversupply. The UK and US have gone in the other direction because the worse thing that can happen is we lose a bit of money, and given the £400bn cost of this pandemic it's chump change.
I think that's spot on, and I think is a clear demonstration of the dangers of "managerialism" (and which is a consequence of a distant bloc, lacking decent democratic oversight.)
The issue is probably exacerbated because the EU has historically been buffeted with accusations of not being very good at controlling their spending, and that has probably caused institutional desires not to be seen to overpay for things.
In this particular case, this has led to them being desperately short of vaccines early in the process.
But I'm less pessimistic about how they will do from here than most: not because their performance is going to turn around, but simply because the world is going to have lots of vaccines sooner rather than later. Yes, they'll be two or three months behind us (and that's pretty horrendous), but once availability is there, they'll ramp pretty quickly.
Which is why they'd have been better advised to grit their teeth, not make a meal of it, whilst quietly learning the lessons and trying to mitigate the effects behind the scenes.
Instead they've created a massive high-profile political issue out of it that has undermined confidence in the European Commission, and they've just kept on digging.
The EU *really* needs J&J results out this week, because they are much, much more dependent on it than we are.
When did they order their J&J?
After us, two months later iirc.
Yes, it was us first, the EU second and the US third.
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
She's a cunning politician.
I thought the majority of France were anti-vaxxers so shortages won't bother them....
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
Of course AZN are in the wrong - if there's a contract and they've failed to deliver upon it then there will be clauses that may be invoked against them. The EU isn't satisfied with that though it seems. The bigger wrong seems to be the EU.
How can you fail to deliver something that has not been approved by the customer for delivery yet?
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
Sadly it's not just France. Italy, Sweden and even the Netherlands could see a boost for populists in upcoming elections. Vox in Spain is also doing well in the polls the last time I checked.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
But they have honoured the obligation to create the manufacturing capacity. According to the CEO, they are just experiencing teething issues with yield, as they did with the UK facilities too.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
Of course AZN are in the wrong - if there's a contract and they've failed to deliver upon it then there will be clauses that may be invoked against them. The EU isn't satisfied with that though it seems. The bigger wrong seems to be the EU.
How can you fail to deliver something that has not been approved by the customer for delivery yet?
AZN was due to deliver their first batch to the UK government in September, even before trials were due to have finished, so I don't think it's that surprising. (And I wouldn't be surprised if the US was taking delivery of some of their AZN orders already, even though it's not been authorised there, and probably won't be until end February.)
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
The effort the UK put into the development and sourcing of vaccines is commendable and worthy of praise, no question, but if we are in a fortunate position we should now be helping those parts of the world, particularly the poorest, for whom vaccine availability and supply are much more of an issue.
Helping to get the vaccine to the poorest in the world is the kind of activity in which I'd be proud to see the UK in the vanguard. It would in so many ways represent the spirit of "global Britain", a real positive force in the world.
We are not in a "fortunate position". We have huge death rates daily, massive pressure on hospitals, cases may be coming down but from a very high peak. And there is always the risk of a new variant, evading the vaccines. And we have only given out a load of single doses, all those people need two doses.
We will not be in the fortunate position of being able to share the vaccines we make or have ordered until we have jabbed everyone vulnerable and/or over 40. At that point, maybe. But nor should we try and steal vaccines from our neighbours, as the EU would like to do. Twats.
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
She's a cunning politician.
France did buy some vaccines outside the EU scheme, so it's also possible that France does better than the rest of the EU... And he get the credit...
Didn't they buy extra Sanofi and Merck ones though? Both of them are now in the fail category.
No, it was Velneva I believe. (I.e., local champion.)
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
What can you do though? You cant force it and we cant wait for the reluctant to come along. Reaching high levels of overall resistance via vaccination is possibly going leave those who didn't bother behind. That might be the spur brutal as it is.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
But they have honoured the obligation to create the manufacturing capacity. According to the CEO, they are just experiencing teething issues with yield, as they did with the UK facilities too.
Here's a question for those with knowledge of the process:
Isn't it quite usual for there to be delays in the production of new medicines - it's just that normally, you have longer to sort them out because there isn't this level of urgency?
I seem to remember about two years ago there was a problem with flu vaccines due to an egg shortage, although I didn't pay much attention and could be wrong.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
Of course AZN are in the wrong - if there's a contract and they've failed to deliver upon it then there will be clauses that may be invoked against them. The EU isn't satisfied with that though it seems. The bigger wrong seems to be the EU.
How can you fail to deliver something that has not been approved by the customer for delivery yet?
The EU, so far as I'm aware, are happy to take delivery. They won't/can't use it though.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
Of course AZN are in the wrong - if there's a contract and they've failed to deliver upon it then there will be clauses that may be invoked against them. The EU isn't satisfied with that though it seems. The bigger wrong seems to be the EU.
How can you fail to deliver something that has not been approved by the customer for delivery yet?
AZN was due to deliver their first batch to the UK government in September, even before trials were due to have finished, so I don't think it's that surprising. (And I wouldn't be surprised if the US was taking delivery of some of their AZN orders already, even though it's not been authorised there, and probably won't be until end February.)
Pfizer as well, they delivered their first batch to the US weeks in advance of approval.
On that not Pfizer also came up short for the UK and US, neither country bitched about it. The US had Trump in charge as well, so the bar for the EU is really very low here.
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
She's a cunning politician.
France did buy some vaccines outside the EU scheme, so it's also possible that France does better than the rest of the EU... And he get the credit...
Didn't they buy extra Sanofi and Merck ones though? Both of them are now in the fail category.
No, it was Velneva I believe. (I.e., local champion.)
Not that local, their vaccine manufacturing is in the UK with a pretty well integrated UK supply chain. At least that's what I saw in a presentation last week.
It is *absolutely* *utterly* *extraordinary*, that the current Scottish First Minister, SEEMS to have 1. maintained a trappist silence that enabled Alex Salmond in his pomp to behave inappropriately around women, and then SEEMS to have 2. turned on him to the extent that she orchestrated an attempt to have him jailed for sexual assault. JAILED. For SEXUAL ASSAULT. His entire reputation and legacy DESTROYED like a Rolf Harris.
Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
Of course AZN are in the wrong - if there's a contract and they've failed to deliver upon it then there will be clauses that may be invoked against them. The EU isn't satisfied with that though it seems. The bigger wrong seems to be the EU.
How can you fail to deliver something that has not been approved by the customer for delivery yet?
AZN was due to deliver their first batch to the UK government in September, even before trials were due to have finished, so I don't think it's that surprising. (And I wouldn't be surprised if the US was taking delivery of some of their AZN orders already, even though it's not been authorised there, and probably won't be until end February.)
Pfizer as well, they delivered their first batch to the US weeks in advance of approval.
On that not Pfizer also came up short for the UK and US, neither country bitched about it. The US had Trump in charge as well, so the bar for the EU is really very low here.
Given that every vaccine produced could be sold a hundred times over right now, how do the EU think that bitching, moaning and threatening lawyers will suddenly make them appear any faster?
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
What can you do though? You cant force it and we cant wait for the reluctant to come along. Reaching high levels of overall resistance via vaccination is possibly going leave those who didn't bother behind. That might be the spur brutal as it is.
As I mentioned earlier there are steps you can take - and it seems as if they are being taken at least in some areas. Using mosques and temples as vaccination centres and using the religious and community leaders to promote the vaccination programme all pay huge dividends. It is just a case of realising that different communities have somewhat different priorities and ways of doing things and tailoring your roll out to suit rather than blindly following a one size fits all policy.
As I say it dos look as if this is a lesson that has been well learnt judging by how many religious centres are being used for vaccination.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
But they have honoured the obligation to create the manufacturing capacity. According to the CEO, they are just experiencing teething issues with yield, as they did with the UK facilities too.
Here's a question for those with knowledge of the process:
Isn't it quite usual for there to be delays in the production of new medicines - it's just that normally, you have longer to sort them out because there isn't this level of urgency?
I seem to remember about two years ago there was a problem with flu vaccines due to an egg shortage, although I didn't pay much attention and could be wrong.
Yes, there's a lot that can go wrong with a process, even in an already established one. Hence pharma companies all using "best effort" type clauses in contracts to get out of trouble when things go badly as they did with the UK deliveries and EU ones. There's no single pharma company that won't have these get out clauses and the EU has already admitted that it exists but now they've moved onto societal and moral obligations.
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
Fairly obvious, I'd have thought.
For those emotionally invested in the B-thing, it's proof the the UK is better off out. There's not much else.
(And to save time, yes, the UK is doing well. Some of that is luck, a lot is judgement. But imagine if the French vaccine (Sanofi?) had worked and AZ hadn't. The EU have made mistakes that the UK didn't, especially about frugality. Bill Gates was right; the First World is rich enough to throw money at speeding up the process.
AZ do seem to have questions to answer about the gap between promise and delivery and the quality of their QA. The public stuff from Brussels is odd, probably not productive, but they have an audience as well, and it's not us.)
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
But they have honoured the obligation to create the manufacturing capacity. According to the CEO, they are just experiencing teething issues with yield, as they did with the UK facilities too.
Here's a question for those with knowledge of the process:
Isn't it quite usual for there to be delays in the production of new medicines - it's just that normally, you have longer to sort them out because there isn't this level of urgency?
I seem to remember about two years ago there was a problem with flu vaccines due to an egg shortage, although I didn't pay much attention and could be wrong.
AZ were reluctant to make too much active ingredient then put in storage, The concern was degradation. Could they have produced more? Possibly but they didn't.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
No idea, but the EU's judgements and fines against companies aren't fair - it's almost piracy.
I think @Sandpit was suggesting the amount the EU and/or Germany would have to pay AZ for defaming it. It is possible to libel a company.
As for who is in the wrong, we can't say without reading the contract. But the EU's public tantrum is not helping and suggests a weak legal case.
But really this is not a matter which should end up with lawyers and it is a failure if it does. The priority is to get the vaccines developed, manufactured and delivered to the right standard as fast as possible - and then approved and given to those who need them. That's where the efforts should be focused not all this public grandstanding and ridiculous talk of butchers' shops.
Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.
GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
It is *absolutely* *utterly* *extraordinary*, that the current Scottish First Minister, SEEMS to have 1. maintained a trappist silence that enabled Alex Salmond in his pomp to behave inappropriately around women, and then SEEMS to have 2. turned on him to the extent that she orchestrated an attempt to have him jailed for sexual assault. JAILED. For SEXUAL ASSAULT. His entire reputation and legacy DESTROYED like a Rolf Harris.
Sorry for the caps, but it warrants them.
Well, assuming Craig Murray's statement is in any way accurate.
Given that he is a notorious conspiracy theorist who thinks Zionists carried out the Salisbury attacks and is himself currently on trial for contempt of court - which will not have been helped by publishing this statement - this would be a radical departure from previous form, but I suppose it's possible.
Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
She's a cunning politician.
France did buy some vaccines outside the EU scheme, so it's also possible that France does better than the rest of the EU... And he get the credit...
Didn't they buy extra Sanofi and Merck ones though? Both of them are now in the fail category.
The French have been very, very unlucky. AIUI most vaccine candidates fail, and they seem to have fallen victim to two prominent such mishaps.
If Oxford has lucked out our own situation would be very different.
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
Fairly obvious, I'd have thought.
For those emotionally invested in the B-thing, it's proof the the UK is better off out. There's not much else.
(And to save time, yes, the UK is doing well. Some of that is luck, a lot is judgement. But imagine if the French vaccine (Sanofi?) had worked and AZ hadn't. The EU have made mistakes that the UK didn't, especially about frugality. Bill Gates was right; the First World is rich enough to throw money at speeding up the process.
AZ do seem to have questions to answer about the gap between promise and delivery and the quality of their QA. The public stuff from Brussels is odd, probably not productive, but they have an audience as well, and it's not us.)
We bought 60m Sanofi doses, around 4 months before the EU.
If that can be taken at face value - and I am hopeful it can - then that is one hell of a great thing he is doing. And they still make 15% profit which seems a reasonable result to me.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
The effort the UK put into the development and sourcing of vaccines is commendable and worthy of praise, no question, but if we are in a fortunate position we should now be helping those parts of the world, particularly the poorest, for whom vaccine availability and supply are much more of an issue.
Helping to get the vaccine to the poorest in the world is the kind of activity in which I'd be proud to see the UK in the vanguard. It would in so many ways represent the spirit of "global Britain", a real positive force in the world.
We are not in a "fortunate position". We have huge death rates daily, massive pressure on hospitals, cases may be coming down but from a very high peak. And there is always the risk of a new variant, evading the vaccines. And we have only given out a load of single doses, all those people need two doses.
We will not be in the fortunate position of being able to share the vaccines we make or have ordered until we have jabbed everyone vulnerable and/or over 40. At that point, maybe. But nor should we try and steal vaccines from our neighbours, as the EU would like to do. Twats.
The Oxford vaccine should give at least 90+% effectiveness after 20 days. The booster will add some more and extend the effectiveness. I read something about it in the New England Journal of Medicine.
It is *absolutely* *utterly* *extraordinary*, that the current Scottish First Minister, SEEMS to have 1. maintained a trappist silence that enabled Alex Salmond in his pomp to behave inappropriately around women, and then SEEMS to have 2. turned on him to the extent that she orchestrated an attempt to have him jailed for sexual assault. JAILED. For SEXUAL ASSAULT. His entire reputation and legacy DESTROYED like a Rolf Harris.
Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.
GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
GSK does have capacity to fill millions of vaccines in Barnard Castle though.
It is *absolutely* *utterly* *extraordinary*, that the current Scottish First Minister, SEEMS to have 1. maintained a trappist silence that enabled Alex Salmond in his pomp to behave inappropriately around women, and then SEEMS to have 2. turned on him to the extent that she orchestrated an attempt to have him jailed for sexual assault. JAILED. For SEXUAL ASSAULT. His entire reputation and legacy DESTROYED like a Rolf Harris.
Sorry for the caps, but it warrants them.
Well, assuming Craig Murray's statement is in any way accurate.
Given that he is a notorious conspiracy theorist who thinks Zionists carried out the Salisbury attacks and is himself currently on trial for contempt of court - which will not have been helped by publishing this statement - this would be a radical departure from previous form, but I suppose it's possible.
Actually it's not assuming Craig Murray's statement is in any way accurate - apart from some juicy supplementary details this merely supports the way the story was already looking.
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
Fairly obvious, I'd have thought.
For those emotionally invested in the B-thing, it's proof the the UK is better off out. There's not much else.
(And to save time, yes, the UK is doing well. Some of that is luck, a lot is judgement. But imagine if the French vaccine (Sanofi?) had worked and AZ hadn't. The EU have made mistakes that the UK didn't, especially about frugality. Bill Gates was right; the First World is rich enough to throw money at speeding up the process.
AZ do seem to have questions to answer about the gap between promise and delivery and the quality of their QA. The public stuff from Brussels is odd, probably not productive, but they have an audience as well, and it's not us.)
We bought 60m Sanofi doses, around 4 months before the EU.
Our portfolio is really well put together, it has a huge distribution across companies and technologies. The only failing, IMO, was not partnering Imperial with GSK to develop a second fully British vaccine.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
What can you do though? You cant force it and we cant wait for the reluctant to come along. Reaching high levels of overall resistance via vaccination is possibly going leave those who didn't bother behind. That might be the spur brutal as it is.
It is brutal but I'm encouraged to see positive efforts within the Tamil community to encourage vaccination pick up. It still remains an issue as it does, in my view, for those migrants who are off the grid, with little or no English, who will also be missed by the vaccination programme.
Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.
GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
It appears that the Government has already put some thought into cultivating this kind of research, in the form of the vaccine centre they're building near Oxford (and Imperial College is listed on the project's homepage as one of its founders.)
We are not in a "fortunate position". We have huge death rates daily, massive pressure on hospitals, cases may be coming down but from a very high peak. And there is always the risk of a new variant, evading the vaccines. And we have only given out a load of single doses, all those people need two doses.
We will not be in the fortunate position of being able to share the vaccines we make or have ordered until we have jabbed everyone vulnerable and/or over 40. At that point, maybe. But nor should we try and steal vaccines from our neighbours, as the EU would like to do. Twats.
Apart from the predictable anti-EU jibe which wasn't really necessary, I'd argue the point WHEN we have achieved a much higher level of vaccination, we should consider helping those parts of the world which lack the logistical infrastructure to carry out a vaccination programme.
What would make me proud to be British would be to see our soldiers and medics leading the vaccination of populations in poorer countries, genuinely helping to improve people's lives.
I do rather worry that this is going to start off with the EU blaming AstraZeneca, but end up with the EU scapegoating the UK.
The path between the two scenarios is very short. AZ digs its heels in, EU goes direct to UK Government and demands diversion of production, Johnson refuses, EU condemns UK for being selfish and blames us for their suffering (along with using this as an excuse to confiscate our Pfizer orders and use them itself to plug the gaps that its own lethargy has created.)
I'm not sure how far we can trust the Commission but I do think that they must be desperate. A serious confrontation cannot, presumably, be ruled out.
Depending on how the UK roll-out is going, Johnson might name a price.....?
That is the obvious thing to do . Ask the EU what they are prepared to offer Britain in return. Equivalence for financial services, for instance.....
But honestly this is childish by the EU - it is in all our interests that we all get vaccinated. Rather than harrumph and talk about export bans and seizing product contractually owed to other parties etc, the EU should be working with AZ. They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Would need to be permanent equivalence though... don’t trust them not to yank it as soon as they have the vaccines
One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.
Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
If he had gotten lucky Michael Pence was going to be murdered.
Yes, quite. I agree with Casino's general point as there are many examples which can be found which seem absurdly over the top, but though that does seem a lot, I'm not really sure what would constitute a fair sentence here. A riot which stormed the Congress in an attempt to prevent and overturn a constitutionally mandated duty and as a result of which several people died and many others could have been? Maybe what he got was too much, but by how much?
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
BBC World News reporting on the EU -AZ arguments was really, really bad. Extremely one sided. Twice repeated the EU claims that they had spent billions on vaccine development and so should be given priority whilst making no mention at all of the AZ rebuttals and the actual facts of the case. Apparently this is all AZs fault. Impression given also that AZ were making money out of this.
Well if you want the opposite skew just come on here. Put the two together and bob is your uncle.
BBC on AZ: The fact that the UK ordered its 100 million doses months ago and approved it weeks ago meant AstraZeneca was able to organise that supply chain.
Late ordering and the fact the EU is still yet to approve the drug means that supply chain is at a much earlier stage.
Given there is a biological process to go through - in other words, there are some parts of production you can't hurry, nature has to do its thing - supply contracts would always include "wiggle room" and be on a "best efforts basis".
AstraZeneca seems confident they are not in legal breach of any contract.
The EU have got this wrong but it's in our interests they get their populations vaccinated and their countries re-opened as quickly as possible.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
The effort the UK put into the development and sourcing of vaccines is commendable and worthy of praise, no question, but if we are in a fortunate position we should now be helping those parts of the world, particularly the poorest, for whom vaccine availability and supply are much more of an issue.
Helping to get the vaccine to the poorest in the world is the kind of activity in which I'd be proud to see the UK in the vanguard. It would in so many ways represent the spirit of "global Britain", a real positive force in the world.
The UK has already done a lot to ensure vaccines will be available in the wider world. Far more than the EU, just to name one example totally at random.
Correct... But don't worry the BBC and Peerless Morgan will still complain they are both doing enough.
In fact Britain are doing as much as anyone else in the world to get vaccines to the poorest.
Reminds me of Google not allowing searches for Scunthorpe a few years ago.
I believe the issue was referred to as the Scunthorpe problem.
I seem to recall some UK gov accidentally led to the blocking some things because the letters sex were in some file names.
Indeed, and there’s a long and well-documented list of similar problems encountered over the years. There’s dozens of ‘offensive’ place names in the UK, not to mention the small town in Upper Austria that now prefers to be called Fugging.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
No, but everyone is saying that the clauses will be pretty standard. Why else are they talking about morality and guff like that? And the delays aren't malicious, unless you are suggesting they are deliberately delaying vaccines?
We are not in a "fortunate position". We have huge death rates daily, massive pressure on hospitals, cases may be coming down but from a very high peak. And there is always the risk of a new variant, evading the vaccines. And we have only given out a load of single doses, all those people need two doses.
We will not be in the fortunate position of being able to share the vaccines we make or have ordered until we have jabbed everyone vulnerable and/or over 40. At that point, maybe. But nor should we try and steal vaccines from our neighbours, as the EU would like to do. Twats.
Apart from the predictable anti-EU jibe which wasn't really necessary, I'd argue the point WHEN we have achieved a much higher level of vaccination, we should consider helping those parts of the world which lack the logistical infrastructure to carry out a vaccination programme.
What would make me proud to be British would be to see our soldiers and medics leading the vaccination of populations in poorer countries, genuinely helping to improve people's lives.
That doesn't include the EU (other than maybe Ireland given our land border). They have the means to help themselves. We should be helping the developing world.
One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.
Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.
On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?
Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.
There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.
Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
Dawkins' disease, as Rob Smithson termed it ages ago. A lot of this resistance will be religious.
Is vaccination a no no with many religions/sects? Someone said awhile back Jehovah's Witnesses are ok with vaccinations despite not being ok with blood transfusions for example, and I'd be confused why even non 'mainstream' religions would have a particular bugbear around vaccination.
Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.
GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
It appears that the Government has already put some thought into cultivating this kind of research, in the form of the vaccine centre they're building near Oxford (and Imperial College is listed on the project's homepage as one of its founders.)
This is where Kate Bingham really deserves praise. Her expertise is in identifying start-up biotech companies worth investing in and this is what (an educated guess but it fits with the facts we have) she was really brought in to do - to give rocket boosters to this sort of investment in promising companies doing the scientific research and the necessary development and scaling up and partnering with other more established companies.
I hope so because it seems to be a worthwhile thing to do. Though @Charles would have more detailed knowledge of the sector.
Comments
Retail investors being locked out of the market.
Anyway, the Government still has nearly three weeks to reach its target of getting at least one jab into everyone in cohorts 1-4, so I guess we just have to hunker down and keep waiting patiently.
https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/1354353492266246146?s=19
Furthermore- the saving of lives for a country being vaccinated in early (not late) summer might be less than the cost of botching Christmas/New Year.
If AZ are smart, they'll flex things to get more vaccines to Europe earlier- possibly by running the UK setup a bit hotter.
If the EU are smart, they will accept the extra, even if it's not all they want, and turn down the rhetoric.
If the UK are smart, they won't moan if some vaccines go from UK factories to the continent for a bit. It might that be us in a jam next time.
The frotters can frot, and the Treasury can work out what to do about the New York is set to have better access to European finances than London.
Silly old Wall Street, throwing away sovereignty like that.
We're not members any more - I don't really understand the need to bash them ad nauseam and ad infinitum.
The effort the UK put into the development and sourcing of vaccines is commendable and worthy of praise, no question, but if we are in a fortunate position we should now be helping those parts of the world, particularly the poorest, for whom vaccine availability and supply are much more of an issue.
Helping to get the vaccine to the poorest in the world is the kind of activity in which I'd be proud to see the UK in the vanguard. It would in so many ways represent the spirit of "global Britain", a real positive force in the world.
The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.
She's a cunning politician.
For purposes of comparison:
> yours truly (somewhat sickly & semi-superannuated) is sched. to receive 1st COVID vaccination (but don't know which one) Feb 3 in Seattle; just double-checked to confirm my appointment is still "operative".
> according to my health-provider website, "within 48 hours after receiving your first dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, you will receive a [website] notification that you can schedule your second dose vaccination online.
> on the other hand, got a text saying that my provider was NOT making 1st dose appointments "due to lack of vaccine supply" at this time.
> according to yesterday's Jan 26 Seattle Times, 5.6% of Washingtonians have gotten 1st dose, and 1.0% the 2nd.
> WA State has received 720k vac doses, out of total pop. of 7.8m; of doses received, 500k have been delivered to providers.
> Here in King County, the state's largest, total doses given = 8.1% of the population; note that four smaller counties have rates above 10% (highest Clallam = 16.2%) while eight have rates below 4% (lowest Douglas = 0.7%)
But a Le Pen presidency, even leaving aside the moral issues, is definitely not in Britain's interests.
Dawkins' disease, as Rob Smithson termed it ages ago. A lot of this resistance will be religious.
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
I wonder if even the Lib Dems might realise the UK being in control of its own laws is better if she gets into the Elysee Palace? Probably not.
We will not be in the fortunate position of being able to share the vaccines we make or have ordered until we have jabbed everyone vulnerable and/or over 40. At that point, maybe. But nor should we try and steal vaccines from our neighbours, as the EU would like to do. Twats.
https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1354514823229403139
Isn't it quite usual for there to be delays in the production of new medicines - it's just that normally, you have longer to sort them out because there isn't this level of urgency?
I seem to remember about two years ago there was a problem with flu vaccines due to an egg shortage, although I didn't pay much attention and could be wrong.
More fool them if they sit on the golden eggs.
On that not Pfizer also came up short for the UK and US, neither country bitched about it. The US had Trump in charge as well, so the bar for the EU is really very low here.
https://costplusdrugs.com/
Could be quite a dramatic effect.
Sorry for the caps, but it warrants them.
As I say it dos look as if this is a lesson that has been well learnt judging by how many religious centres are being used for vaccination.
For those emotionally invested in the B-thing, it's proof the the UK is better off out. There's not much else.
(And to save time, yes, the UK is doing well. Some of that is luck, a lot is judgement. But imagine if the French vaccine (Sanofi?) had worked and AZ hadn't. The EU have made mistakes that the UK didn't, especially about frugality. Bill Gates was right; the First World is rich enough to throw money at speeding up the process.
AZ do seem to have questions to answer about the gap between promise and delivery and the quality of their QA. The public stuff from Brussels is odd, probably not productive, but they have an audience as well, and it's not us.)
As for who is in the wrong, we can't say without reading the contract. But the EU's public tantrum is not helping and suggests a weak legal case.
But really this is not a matter which should end up with lawyers and it is a failure if it does. The priority is to get the vaccines developed, manufactured and delivered to the right standard as fast as possible - and then approved and given to those who need them. That's where the efforts should be focused not all this public grandstanding and ridiculous talk of butchers' shops.
But never mind keep up the complaints.
Given that he is a notorious conspiracy theorist who thinks Zionists carried out the Salisbury attacks and is himself currently on trial for contempt of court - which will not have been helped by publishing this statement - this would be a radical departure from previous form, but I suppose it's possible.
If Oxford has lucked out our own situation would be very different.
I think my ballpark figure of 70% uptake won't be far out nationally. Some of the other 30% will have infection induced immunity.
Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
I seem to recall some UK gov accidentally led to the blocking some things because the letters sex were in some file names.
Deadman's Hole Lane in Sheffield also brings up interesting search results.
*thinks back over the last five years and nods vigorously*
Macron may be a pompous empty suit, but at least he's not a racist potentially violent empty suit.
What would make me proud to be British would be to see our soldiers and medics leading the vaccination of populations in poorer countries, genuinely helping to improve people's lives.
In fact Britain are doing as much as anyone else in the world to get vaccines to the poorest.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pett_Bottom
BBC News - Covid: Plan to allow Senedd election Covid delay published
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55824997
A custodial sentence is valid.
Twenty eight years is not.
I hope so because it seems to be a worthwhile thing to do. Though @Charles would have more detailed knowledge of the sector.
https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/01/26/news/interview_pascal_soriot_ceo_astrazeneca_coronavirus_covid_vaccines-284349628/