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  • Socrates
    Socrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Socrates said:

    What demographics should be adjusted for?

    The point I was making regarding democraphics was this:

    The UK population may be (lazy guesses, not real numbers):

    25% below the age of 16
    25% between 16 and 35
    25% between 35 and 60
    25% above 60

    Now, 90% of crimes are committed by people between the ages of 16 and 35 (made up number again).

    If the demographics of the Romanian immigrant community in the UK were (more made up numbers):

    5% below the age of 16
    90% between 16 and 35
    5% other

    Making a judgement about the criminality of any one nationality, without adjusting for the fact that 90% of the immigrants were of a particular age cohort, would be extremely distorting.

    You could theoretically have a rate of offending a quarter the level of a British 18 year old (made up, obviously), yet Romanians in Britain (given my made up demographics, above) would still appear more criminal. Not because they are, but because young people are more likely migrants.

    I obviously think the benefits of open borders outweigh the costs. You don't. Let's not get into that argument again. You've utterly failed to persuade me, and I've made a similar impact on you.
    Right, but I don't think the question was about the criminality of any one nationality. The question was whether people would have reason to be concerned if a bunch of Romanian men moved next door. Without further information, the age group of that group is likely to be the same as the Romanian demographic in the UK as a whole, so I'm not sure it makes sense to adjust for that. (Of course, the question is a stupid one in the first place, as it's asked in the aggregate, but then, that was what Farage was asked.)

    As for the last point, I wasn't planning on going in to the broader group. It's perfectly possible to believe that open borders outweigh the costs as a whole, while accepting that one of the costs is that we can be less confident in the levels of criminal activity of those coming here.
  • Wat_Tylers_Grandson
    Wat_Tylers_Grandson Posts: 25
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Flightpath said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't think there's any point in denying that the campaign against Farage has damaged his standing. It may have energised confirmed UKIP supporters, but it has put off a lot of casuals -anecdotally, when I speak to people who could be expected to be broadly sympathetic, there is a slight reticence there, a slight uncertainty, even distaste.

    Press and other comments about Farage are based on what he and other UKIP MEPs and candidates have said and done and are saying and doing.
    A classic example for Farage was that on the eve of the by election he was not even in the country and irrespective of who he was with and why, he was not only not campaigning for his party at a vital time he was out partying til 4 in the morning. He staggered home to give a grossly misleading account of his party's expectations.
    This is perfectly true reporting. As is the situation where one of it leading winning MEPs was employing loads of cheap foreign labour and had charged them 50 quid a week for linving in bunkhouses. Are you telling me this is in line with UKIP policy?

    Farage has lower ratings because he deserves them.
    That Mirror story wasn't about Farage's mishandling of the Newark by-election; it was 'Where did UKIP last night Nige?' -you surely can't be suggesting that's anything other than a smear? As for anyone else who has misbehaved, I'm sure they deserve the discipline they will have received, but as was made clear during the EP campaign, Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem candidates, councillors and supporters more than equal their UKIP counterparts in nastiness, racism, and illegal activity. But these stories never made the news. No matter -UKIP need to find strategies to survive these attacks -saying it's all just grist to the mill is a plucky defence, but UKIP shouldn't necessarily buy into it whole-heartedly behind the scenes.
    Where's the evidence that "Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem candidates, councillors and supporters more than equal their UKIP counterparts in nastiness, racism, and illegal activity." That some were exceedingly unpleasant I have, as a one-time candidate, no doubt. However it does seem that UKIP has a higher proportion of rather dodgy people than others. Even than the Liberals in their somewhat similar "flash" gains of the 60's.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Wat_Tylers_Grandson said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Flightpath said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't think there's any point in denying that the campaign against Farage has damaged his standing. It may have energised confirmed UKIP supporters, but it has put off a lot of casuals -anecdotally, when I speak to people who could be expected to be broadly sympathetic, there is a slight reticence there, a slight uncertainty, even distaste.

    Press and other comments about Farage are based on what he and other UKIP MEPs and candidates have said and done and are saying and doing.
    A classic example for Farage was that on the eve of the by election he was not even in the country and irrespective of who he was with and why, he was not only not campaigning for his party at a vital time he was out partying til 4 in the morning. He staggered home to give a grossly misleading account of his party's expectations.
    This is perfectly true reporting. As is the situation where one of it leading winning MEPs was employing loads of cheap foreign labour and had charged them 50 quid a week for linving in bunkhouses. Are you telling me this is in line with UKIP policy?

    Farage has lower ratings because he deserves them.
    That Mirror story wasn't about Farage's mishandling of the Newark by-election; it was 'Where did UKIP last night Nige?' -you surely can't be suggesting that's anything other than a smear? As for anyone else who has misbehaved, I'm sure they deserve the discipline they will have received, but as was made clear during the EP campaign, Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem candidates, councillors and supporters more than equal their UKIP counterparts in nastiness, racism, and illegal activity. But these stories never made the news. No matter -UKIP need to find strategies to survive these attacks -saying it's all just grist to the mill is a plucky defence, but UKIP shouldn't necessarily buy into it whole-heartedly behind the scenes.
    Where's the evidence that "Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem candidates, councillors and supporters more than equal their UKIP counterparts in nastiness, racism, and illegal activity." That some were exceedingly unpleasant I have, as a one-time candidate, no doubt. However it does seem that UKIP has a higher proportion of rather dodgy people than others. Even than the Liberals in their somewhat similar "flash" gains of the 60's.
    The Liberals did give us Jeremy Thorpe, Peter Bessel, and Cyril Smith, from that period.
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    oldnat said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Gove surely drops out of the running completely in the case of a Yes vote.

    Are you suggesting that the Tory party is run by ethnic nationalists? Why should anyone representing an rUK constituency be excluded from consideration (other than for being no bloody good, which would rule Gove out, whichever way the referendum goes.)

    I am suggesting it'll be very tricky for any Scot - born and bred - to lead any party down south if Scotland becomes a foreign country. I think it would be difficult electorally, especially for the few years during the separation process. In the same way, I would not expect to see an English FM of an independent Scotland for many a long year.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Speedy said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    Socrates said:


    Well if we look at the case of Juncker, the German delegations of both right and left are voting in favour, while the UK delegations of both right and left are voting against. Labour often sit uncomfortably with the PES, while the UK Tories and UKIP are both in different groupings to the CDU-CSU.

    That's an unusual case caused by the fact that Labour and UK Tories knew the winner was going to get a lot of criticism from the UK tabloids. Lab, Lib and Green all fit into their groupings fine.

    Con are a bit lost right now - they probably mostly agree with the EPP, except that they disagree with them on constitutional issues. That shouldn't matter because the European Parliament doesn't really deal with constitutional issues, but you can understand why they didn't feel comfortable as the stuff they disagree on is very important to them. This puts them in weird positions like having a party like the AfD who would be quite a good fit for their group, but not wanting to let them in for fear of upsetting somebody whose group they've already symbolically left because they disagree with it. In the long run it should sort itself out - the non-EPP right is now quite diverse, and sooner or later they should get aligned with some natural allies.
    On the level of the european parliament it looks like a typical eurozone bailout country, where both the right and the left have squeezed the center parties into grand coalitions that are very unhealty for the junior partner.
    The socialists have the greatest problems since the austerity and bailout programs run contrary to everything they stand for. On the other side the christian democrats and other center parties dont have the same problem since they are happy with the austerity agenda and they are not in favour of the free market, so they are the natural parties of the eurozone.

    On the long term the socialists will disappear in the eurozone and the christian democrats will become the natural liberal parties confronted by a populist opposition of left and right.
    The Conservatives in Britain can't realistically join a liberal EPP without abandoning its support for free markets, something impossible as long as London is booming, so they can join the populist right, but they can't because of UKIP in that camp, so they have to make their own camp by splitting the populist right.
    Labour will have no camp to join on the long term.

    I'm in the camp that europe is just one recession away from disintergrating politically, so i'm not an optimist.
    The Populist Right and Left are on the march, so centre-right and centre-left are sinking their differences, and teaming up.

  • Socrates
    Socrates Posts: 10,322
    SouthamObserver said:

    oldnat said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Gove surely drops out of the running completely in the case of a Yes vote.

    Are you suggesting that the Tory party is run by ethnic nationalists? Why should anyone representing an rUK constituency be excluded from consideration (other than for being no bloody good, which would rule Gove out, whichever way the referendum goes.)

    I am suggesting it'll be very tricky for any Scot - born and bred - to lead any party down south if Scotland becomes a foreign country. I think it would be difficult electorally, especially for the few years during the separation process. In the same way, I would not expect to see an English FM of an independent Scotland for many a long year.
    If the guy maintains UK citizenship, after living in this country for years, and makes clear his primary allegiance is to this country, I don't see a problem.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Foxinsox jr continues his winning streak. Switzerland 2:1 now gives him 4/9 exact scores. It is proving fairly profiteable for us both. He has France 2 Honduras 0, Argentina 2 Bosnia 0 for tonights remaining matches.

    And for Monday
    Nigeria 2 Iran 1
    Germany 2 Portugal 2
    Ghana 3 USA 1

    I share PfP's view on Costa Rica, gotta be the value, though I think the Italians are too disciplined for them.
    peter_from_putney said:

    Group D Qualifiers

    I don't know whether it's me but as things stand England have 0 points and a goal difference of minus 1. Costa Rica on the other hand have 3 points and a goal difference of plus 2. To be sure of qualification therefore, England must win both their remaining games (big ask), whereas need to win one of their two games. In either case a tally of 4 points might suffice, with the outcome perhaps resting on goal difference, where Costa Rica clearly has the edge currently.
    In such circumstances, all things being equal (including their respective opposition), Costa Rica appear to have a better chance than England.
    Yet their respective odds with Betfair of doing do: England 2.04 (0.99/1 net in old money), Costa Rica 2.48 (1.41/1 net). I know which I'd rather be backing, but DYOR.

  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Using the TSE strategy, I've just put £8.50 on Honduras at 12/1.
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    Sean_F said:

    Wat_Tylers_Grandson said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    Flightpath said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I don't think there's any point in denying that the campaign against Farage has damaged his standing. It may have energised confirmed UKIP supporters, but it has put off a lot of casuals -anecdotally, when I speak to people who could be expected to be broadly sympathetic, there is a slight reticence there, a slight uncertainty, even distaste.

    Press and other comments about Farage are based on what he and other UKIP MEPs and candidates have said and done and are saying and doing.
    A classic example for Farage was that on the eve of the by election he was not even in the country and irrespective of who he was with and why, he was not only not campaigning for his party at a vital time he was out partying til 4 in the morning. He staggered home to give a grossly misleading account of his party's expectations.
    This is perfectly true reporting. As is the situation where one of it leading winning MEPs was employing loads of cheap foreign labour and had charged them 50 quid a week for linving in bunkhouses. Are you telling me this is in line with UKIP policy?

    Farage has lower ratings because he deserves them.
    That Mirror story wasn't about Farage's mishandling of the Newark by-election; it was 'Where did UKIP last night Nige?' -you surely can't be suggesting that's anything other than a smear? As for anyone else who has misbehaved, I'm sure they deserve the discipline they will have received, but as was made clear during the EP campaign, Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem candidates, councillors and supporters more than equal their UKIP counterparts in nastiness, racism, and illegal activity. But these stories never made the news. No matter -UKIP need to find strategies to survive these attacks -saying it's all just grist to the mill is a plucky defence, but UKIP shouldn't necessarily buy into it whole-heartedly behind the scenes.
    Where's the evidence that "Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem candidates, councillors and supporters more than equal their UKIP counterparts in nastiness, racism, and illegal activity." That some were exceedingly unpleasant I have, as a one-time candidate, no doubt. However it does seem that UKIP has a higher proportion of rather dodgy people than others. Even than the Liberals in their somewhat similar "flash" gains of the 60's.
    The Liberals did give us Jeremy Thorpe, Peter Bessel, and Cyril Smith, from that period.
    Cyril Smith was later, 70s iirc. (Hence the joke changing from one yellow taxi to two yellow taxis). He was still Labour through the 60s.
  • CD13
    CD13 Posts: 6,386
    "The Liberals did give us Jeremy Thorpe, Peter Bessel, and Cyril Smith, from that period."

    Although I think Labour deserve some credit for Cyril too. Plus those cover-ups we never heard about (dons tinfoil hat).
  • Socrates
    Socrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:



    The Populist Right and Left are on the march, so centre-right and centre-left are sinking their differences, and teaming up.

    Are the populist left on the march in Europe? I don't see it happening generally. It's only really happening in the southern economies that have been subject to EU rule.
  • CD13
    CD13 Posts: 6,386
    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney
  • Socrates
    Socrates Posts: 10,322
    I see the Muslim world is showing its best side this weekend:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27857343
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27858692
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27855994
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27801257
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27829343
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    oldnat said:

    Flightpath said:

    Speedy said:

    By the way if I have to give advise on British values I would start with history classes.
    ....
    So for Britain it should be King Arthur, Robin Hood, the war of the roses, Elizabeth, the exploration era, the enlightment, Napoleon, the Empire, WW1 and WW2 somewhere in british values.

    The first two never existed.
    And the next two weren't "British".
    Haven't you died of boredom yet ? Two months to go and still nothing worthwhile in the Indyref debate.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

  • AveryLP
    AveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited June 2014
    This is not mere closet racism, this is full fat, double sugar, luxury racism.

    twitter.com/Fight4UK/status/478181167997669376/photo/1

    Probably derives from an early drawing in Enoch's sketchbooks.
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    Yup, it might give him a kick up the rear
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

    *rolls eyes*

    For Lallana? Barkley? Neither a patch on him.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

    *rolls eyes*

    For Lallana? Barkley? Neither a patch on him.
    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

    *rolls eyes*

    For Lallana? Barkley? Neither a patch on him.
    They might perhaps rise to the opportunity rather than slump at the chance a la Wayne.
  • AveryLP
    AveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

    I would recommend replacing Rooney with Osborne, Mr. Brooke.

    But George isn't much of a left winger either.

  • CD13
    CD13 Posts: 6,386
    Corporeal,

    Scholes may be right about his former colleague; Rooney's best days are behind him.

    In the last match, he played like James Milner without that player's defensive qualities. He has a tendency to be selfish and when he tries to produce something, he nearly always wastes the chance.

    What is Fox Jr's prediction for Thursday's match. Or TSE's
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Pretentious? moi? I nearly choked on my latte when I read this

    Italian politician under fire after labelling English ‘pretentious pricks’

    • Maurizio Gasparri tweeted after Italy beat England in Brazil
    • Italian media call for vice-president of the Senate to resign

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/15/italian-politician-maurizio-gasparri-twitter-english
  • Carnyx
    Carnyx Posts: 44,654
    Life_ina_market_town said:

    Speedy said:

    By the way if I have to give advise on British values I would start with history classes.
    The americans are even more flimsy on what are american values but they all have 1776, the civil war, the american west, WW2 and civil rights somewhere in them.

    So for Britain it should be King Arthur, Robin Hood, the war of the roses, Elizabeth, the exploration era, the enlightment, Napoleon, the Empire, WW1 and WW2 somewhere in british values.

    Unless one subscribes to the classical view that history is a species of epideictic rhetoric, providing moral instruction by way of example rather than precept, it is difficult to conceive of how teaching history can inculcate anyone with "British values". It should be noted that an overwhelming proportion of academic historians are opposed to the notion that their discipline can or should have a moral didactic function.
    Excellent post.
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Pretentious? moi? I nearly choked on my latte when I read this

    Italian politician under fire after labelling English ‘pretentious pricks’

    • Maurizio Gasparri tweeted after Italy beat England in Brazil
    • Italian media call for vice-president of the Senate to resign

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/15/italian-politician-maurizio-gasparri-twitter-english

    He sounds charming
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    CD13 said:

    Corporeal,

    Scholes may be right about his former colleague; Rooney's best days are behind him.

    In the last match, he played like James Milner without that player's defensive qualities. He has a tendency to be selfish and when he tries to produce something, he nearly always wastes the chance.

    What is Fox Jr's prediction for Thursday's match. Or TSE's

    Nil Nil until injury time, when Luis Suarez's earns a penalty for Uruguay, by diving whilst simultaneously hurling racial epithets at Danny Welbeck and taking a bite out of Gary Cahill's leg.

    So One nil to Uruguay.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    AveryLP said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

    I would recommend replacing Rooney with Osborne, Mr. Brooke.

    But George isn't much of a left winger either.

    Unusually on this we agree, Osborne would do a better job than Rooney.

    Though of couse for CoE the reverse also applies.
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    Here what happened to the anthems at the France match?
  • peter_from_putney
    peter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Foxinsox jr continues his winning streak. Switzerland 2:1 now gives him 4/9 exact scores. It is proving fairly profiteable for us both. He has France 2 Honduras 0, Argentina 2 Bosnia 0 for tonights remaining matches.

    And for Monday
    Nigeria 2 Iran 1
    Germany 2 Portugal 2
    Ghana 3 USA 1

    I share PfP's view on Costa Rica, gotta be the value, though I think the Italians are too disciplined for them.

    peter_from_putney said:

    Group D Qualifiers

    I don't know whether it's me but as things stand England have 0 points and a goal difference of minus 1. Costa Rica on the other hand have 3 points and a goal difference of plus 2. To be sure of qualification therefore, England must win both their remaining games (big ask), whereas need to win one of their two games. In either case a tally of 4 points might suffice, with the outcome perhaps resting on goal difference, where Costa Rica clearly has the edge currently.
    In such circumstances, all things being equal (including their respective opposition), Costa Rica appear to have a better chance than England.
    Yet their respective odds with Betfair of doing do: England 2.04 (0.99/1 net in old money), Costa Rica 2.48 (1.41/1 net). I know which I'd rather be backing, but DYOR.


    Great stuff from Junior - is he old enough to take over from Phil "Them" Neville ?
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I assume the best time to cash out would be if Honduras score the first goal...
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Also backed Sakho as FGS in this match
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    AndyJS said:

    I assume the best time to cash out would be if Honduras score the first goal...

    Yes

  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited June 2014
    Flightpath said:

    Socrates said:

    rcs1000 said:


    Wasn't there a line in Mein Kampf that said - and I'm paraphrasing as I was about 18 when I read it - that the greatest trick the Jews ever did was to convince the world that Judaism was a religion rather than a race.

    A vast amount of money has been spend in Israel over the last 40 years looking to find 'the Jewish gene'. Unfortunately, it turns out no such genes exist. And - from a DNA perspective - Jews are indistinguishable from Palestinians.

    Weren't you one of the people claiming that the Germans were a race separate from the Romanians, and thus Farage was being racist when he raised concerns over Romanians?

    The problem is that all these terms are murky. My preferred definition would be that race is just a biological thing (albeit with no clear borders between them) and that an ethnic group is the social construct. By that logic, I'd say that the Jews are an ethnic group and not a race. But still, Disraeli would count as an ethnic minority leader.
    I think 'racism' is where people treat others from a different background as being as a group different. This usually also treats them as being inferior. If someone despises the French as a group or Romanians, then to me they are being racist. They are being grossly derogatory to a whole caste of people.
    This is a wide definition but its too easy for people to be saying that 'I am not racist but...' I have a friend, a leftish wing friend, who is unable to see any good on any american or anything american. I tell him he in his narrow and prejudiced outlook is a racist and understandably he is upset. But he exhibits the same blinkered wilful dismissal based on ignorance as any other kind of racist.
    Racism is just one example of ignorance fed by bigotry. We should go to the heart of our problems and not be led astray by such things.
    Trevor Phillips talking sense regarding the nonsense of calling everything racist, despite race not playing a part.

    Its a wanky catch all that devalues the harm of real racism

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti7bBORQ25Q
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    There's not a match in this world cup I've not made a profit on.

    Just saying.
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    I like this crowd they've already started to boo the French.
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    There's not a match in this world cup I've not made a profit on.

    Just saying.

    Great strategy, although it must rely on an awful lot of stupid people.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    MikeSmithson said:

    Speedy said:

    These polls only comfirm what we know already.
    There hasn't been any major change from the euros apart than the LD are still digging deeper and the antiUKIP media campaign haews an effect only on tactical voting but not those who vote UKIP.

    Wrong. Ukip was polling in the late 30s at the end of April. By election day that had dropped to 27%.


    In the locals Ukip saw a drop of 6% on its NEV of 2013. They were about a quarter down.
    Haha go on Mike, take the firm that overstated UKIP by a mile, and use that as a basis to say they dropped 10%

    Desperate and laughable, you ought to know better
  • SquareRoot
    SquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    There's not a single match in this world cup that I have seen one second of.. Just saying..
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    AndyJS said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    There's not a match in this world cup I've not made a profit on.

    Just saying.

    Great strategy, although it must rely on an awful lot of stupid people.
    More down to Paddy Power's, Betfair's and Bet365's cash out feature.
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

    *rolls eyes*

    For Lallana? Barkley? Neither a patch on him.
    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    corporeal said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    CD13 said:

    England must beat Uruguay on Thursday, and we've got the "Rooney problem" and the Suarez worry. Could we not feed Rooney to the cannibalistic Liverpool forward and kill two birds with one stone?

    It would take him at least a week to digest Rooney

    What's so great about Rooney ? This is his 3rd world cup and he has never scored a goal. Drop him and give the position to a younger talent.
    That he's one of England's best players.

    Of course he's not a left winger.
    He just doesn't perform in the big tournaments. Replace him.

    *rolls eyes*

    For Lallana? Barkley? Neither a patch on him.
    They might perhaps rise to the opportunity rather than slump at the chance a la Wayne.
    He's played 5 matches at the European championships, scored 5 goals. But does that not count as a major championship?

    He created England's only goal the other day with a fantastic cross.

    People tried to accuse him of being lazy yesterday, and he covered more ground than any other England player.
  • SquareRoot
    SquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    isam said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    Speedy said:

    These polls only comfirm what we know already.
    There hasn't been any major change from the euros apart than the LD are still digging deeper and the antiUKIP media campaign haews an effect only on tactical voting but not those who vote UKIP.

    Wrong. Ukip was polling in the late 30s at the end of April. By election day that had dropped to 27%.


    In the locals Ukip saw a drop of 6% on its NEV of 2013. They were about a quarter down.
    Haha go on Mike, take the firm that overstated UKIP by a mile, and use that as a basis to say they dropped 10%

    Desperate and laughable, you ought to know better
    Desperate and laughable?? Sums up most of UKIP's policies.
  • HurstLlama
    HurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Carnyx said:

    Life_ina_market_town said:

    Speedy said:

    By the way if I have to give advise on British values I would start with history classes.
    The americans are even more flimsy on what are american values but they all have 1776, the civil war, the american west, WW2 and civil rights somewhere in them.

    So for Britain it should be King Arthur, Robin Hood, the war of the roses, Elizabeth, the exploration era, the enlightment, Napoleon, the Empire, WW1 and WW2 somewhere in british values.

    Unless one subscribes to the classical view that history is a species of epideictic rhetoric, providing moral instruction by way of example rather than precept, it is difficult to conceive of how teaching history can inculcate anyone with "British values". It should be noted that an overwhelming proportion of academic historians are opposed to the notion that their discipline can or should have a moral didactic function.
    Excellent post.
    Unless you translate it into every day English. In which case it reads the history of Britain cannot show how the British came to be what we are and a whole bunch of cultural Marxists (if not out and out Marxists), who get paid for doing not much agree that Britain, and especially England, has had a bad effect on the world for which we ought to be eternally sorry (Copyright Hobsbawm).
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited June 2014
    peter_from_putney said:

    Group D Qualifiers

    I don't know whether it's me but as things stand England have 0 points and a goal difference of minus 1. Costa Rica on the other hand have 3 points and a goal difference of plus 2. To be sure of qualification therefore, England must win both their remaining games (big ask), whereas need to win one of their two games. In either case a tally of 4 points might suffice, with the outcome perhaps resting on goal difference, where Costa Rica clearly has the edge currently.
    In such circumstances, all things being equal (including their respective opposition), Costa Rica appear to have a better chance than England.
    Yet their respective odds with Betfair of doing do: England 2.04 (0.99/1 net in old money), Costa Rica 2.48 (1.41/1 net). I know which I'd rather be backing, but DYOR.

    Costa Rica will still be massive underdogs versus Italy and England. They will probably lose both games

    England could lose to Uruguay and still qualify as long as they whack CR and Italy bt Uruguay

    The opposition isnt equal is where I think you are mistaken there
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    edited June 2014
    Just to point out how niche betting on politics is, this is the total matched amounts on Betfair is

    Next GE: Most seats 308k

    Next Ge: Overall Maj: 206k

    Indyref: 564k

    Tonight's France v Honduras match: 8.75million (and this isn't even a major match at the World Cup)
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    OMG - Chris Huhne is channelling me

    Jonathan Freedland ‏@Freedland 7m

    In which Chris Huhne calls for Britain to move to a presidential system, with a directly elected executive http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/15/tony-blair-democratic-flaw-iraq-war-commons …
  • Socrates
    Socrates Posts: 10,322
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    OMG - Chris Huhne is channelling me

    Jonathan Freedland ‏@Freedland 7m

    In which Chris Huhne calls for Britain to move to a presidential system, with a directly elected executive http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/15/tony-blair-democratic-flaw-iraq-war-commons …

    I used to prefer the executive in parliament system, but I've seen just how much it means the leadership can stamp out debate within their parties.

    I don't see why it would need to be called "president" however. There's no inherent reason why the Queen's prime minister couldn't be directly elected.
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    OMG - Chris Huhne is channelling me

    Jonathan Freedland ‏@Freedland 7m

    In which Chris Huhne calls for Britain to move to a presidential system, with a directly elected executive http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/15/tony-blair-democratic-flaw-iraq-war-commons …

    I agree with the prescription but I can't abide the snide diagnosis and the sneering self righteousness of that article
  • Wat_Tylers_Grandson
    Wat_Tylers_Grandson Posts: 25
    radsatser, your post an hour or so ago contains references to some vile offences, and some equally vile calumnies.
    You ought to be ashamed to even suggest you might accept it as a reference.

    As far as the Liberals of the 60's are concerned, Peter Bessell was a strange and perverse individual. As far as Jeremy Thorpe is concerned, I understand he has written a full account to be published after his death. I for one will be interested to read that.
  • Socrates
    Socrates Posts: 10,322
    CD13 said:

    Corporeal,

    Scholes may be right about his former colleague; Rooney's best days are behind him.

    In the last match, he played like James Milner without that player's defensive qualities. He has a tendency to be selfish and when he tries to produce something, he nearly always wastes the chance.

    What is Fox Jr's prediction for Thursday's match. Or TSE's

    Watching the highlights again, it is harsh on Rooney when he's being force to play left wing/left back when Baines overlaps. We should put Lallana on the left wing, or the Ox if he's fit, and put Rooney back in the #10 position.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited June 2014
    British Values

    To try and intstill them in anyone by any government measure is absolutely ridiculous. There can be no definition of them, whoever tries to do so fails, it is pointless.

    The only way that immigrants learn British values is to be allowed in to the country in small enough numbers that would make failure to integrate almost impossible unless they were trying deliberately not to do so.

    Mass immigration means integration is almost impossible, you cant have both mass immigration and integration.

    Another example of "progressive" politicians not thinking a policy through, going ahead with an idealistic plan despite warnings that it is flawed, making a huge mess, and finding it impossible to clean up.

    Blair on the Middle East crisis today is an almost perfect example
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    SquareRoot said:

    isam said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    Speedy said:

    These polls only comfirm what we know already.
    There hasn't been any major change from the euros apart than the LD are still digging deeper and the antiUKIP media campaign haews an effect only on tactical voting but not those who vote UKIP.

    Wrong. Ukip was polling in the late 30s at the end of April. By election day that had dropped to 27%.


    In the locals Ukip saw a drop of 6% on its NEV of 2013. They were about a quarter down.
    Haha go on Mike, take the firm that overstated UKIP by a mile, and use that as a basis to say they dropped 10%

    Desperate and laughable, you ought to know better
    Desperate and laughable?? Sums up most of UKIP's policies.
    Dont give up the day job
  • Socrates
    Socrates Posts: 10,322
    Mark Warner destroying the competition in Virginia:

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2014/virginia/election_2014_virginia_senate

    Good choice for Clinton's Veep.
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    How many chances do France need to score?
  • Life_ina_market_town
    Life_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    isam said:

    To try and intstill them in anyone by any government measure is absolutely ridiculous. There can be no definition of them, whoever tries to do so fails, it is pointless.

    The only way that immigrants learn British values is to be allowed in to the country in small enough numbers that would make failure to integrate almost impossible unless they were trying deliberately not to do so.

    Government-sponsored "integration" should be viewed with the same degree of suspicion as government-sponsored "British values". It is my birthright as an Englishman to "integrate" as much or as little with the rest of society as I choose. "British values" and "integration" both reek of authoritarian attempts to subordinate the individual to the collective, and are entirely contrary to liberty.
  • Luckyguy1983
    Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,089
    List of misdemeanors from one week in August compiled by OP on Digital Spy...

    Tories - 2 on firearms offences, 1 for falsely claiming to be a barrister, 1 drink driving ban, 1 disqualified for benefits fraud, 1 cronyism over pub license breach, 1 accused of sexist remarks

    Labour - 1 banned from office for bullying, 1 cronyism delaying prosecution for benefits fraud, 1 electoral fraud allegation, 5 resignations over racism claims, 2 resignations over homophobia claims, 1 facing investigation into homophobic remarks

    Lib Dem - 2 on benefits fraud charges

    Plus: Of Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem and UKIP, UKIP is the only one not embroiled in child abuse investigations.

    Tory councillor in Chingford to be sentenced today over firearms charges
    http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/new...ntenced_today/

    Tory councillor resigns from party over firearms conviction in Somerset
    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Conserv...ail/story.html

    'Independent' councillor - whose wife is a Labour county councillor - has disqualification for bullying reduced to 18 months
    http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nort...cation-7127671

    Labour councillor has case adjourned until safely after the election after her own (Labour controlled) council makes shambles of court paperwork in Thurrock
    http://www.yourthurrock.com/2014/05/...until-october/

    Former Lib Dem councillor now standing as independent charged with benefits fraud in Kingston
    http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/n..._before_court/

    Conservative councillor arrested over false barrister claims in Guildford
    http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/local...ng-her-arrest/

    Lib Dem councillor convicted of benefit fraud charges forced of council committees after refusing to resign in Tiverton
    http://www.middevongazette.co.uk/Fra...ail/story.html

    Conservative councillor receives one year ban for drink driving in Skegness
    http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/Co...ail/story.html

    Police launch electoral fraud investigation into Labour councillor in Slough over intimidation relating to postal votes
    http://www.sloughobserver.co.uk/news...-postal-vote-/

    Conservative candidate disqualified after £30k benefits fraud conviction comes to light in Enfield
    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime...m-9375335.html

    5 Labour councillors resign from party in Middlesbrough citing racism of local Labour Party among other complaints
    http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/te...labour-7080454

  • Luckyguy1983
    Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,089
    Post continued...

    Tory council accused of turning blind eye to license breaches at pub owned by Tory councillor during function on behalf of Tory mayor in Crayford
    http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/11...pub/?ref=var_0

    SNP activists claims Tory councillor made sexist remarks (but nobody else heard) in Berwickshire
    http://www.thesouthernreporter.co.uk...R4ieDw.twitter

    Labour councillor faces investigation over homophobic remarks directed at gay rival in Liverpool
    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...adford-7122909

    More resignations from Labour Party in Thanet following leader's resignation over homophobia claims earlier this week
    http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Labou...ail/story.html
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    There's going to be quite a bit of stoppage time on this half.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    Life_ina_market_town said:

    isam said:

    To try and intstill them in anyone by any government measure is absolutely ridiculous. There can be no definition of them, whoever tries to do so fails, it is pointless.

    The only way that immigrants learn British values is to be allowed in to the country in small enough numbers that would make failure to integrate almost impossible unless they were trying deliberately not to do so.

    Government-sponsored "integration" should be viewed with the same degree of suspicion as government-sponsored "British values". It is my birthright as an Englishman to "integrate" as much or as little with the rest of society as I choose. "British values" and "integration" both reek of authoritarian attempts to subordinate the individual to the collective, and are entirely contrary to liberty.
    I agree, thats what I am saying isnt it? Sorry if I wasnt clear
  • MrJones
    MrJones Posts: 3,523
    Flightpath said:



    Press and other comments about Farage are based on what he and other UKIP MEPs and candidates have said and done and are saying and doing.
    A classic example for Farage was that on the eve of the by election he was not even in the country and irrespective of who he was with and why, he was not only not campaigning for his party at a vital time he was out partying til 4 in the morning. He staggered home to give a grossly misleading account of his party's expectations.
    This is perfectly true reporting. As is the situation where one of it leading winning MEPs was employing loads of cheap foreign labour and had charged them 50 quid a week for linving in bunkhouses. Are you telling me this is in line with UKIP policy?

    Farage has lower ratings because he deserves them.

    "This is perfectly true reporting. As is the situation where one of it leading winning MEPs was employing loads of cheap foreign labour and had charged them 50 quid a week for linving in bunkhouses."

    How many LibLabCon politicians are doing the same but unreported?

    It would only be "perfectly true reporting" if it was the whole truth.

    Doubly so because the media can seemingly find and report on this issue easily enough when it can be used as an anti-Ukip smear while the rest of the time they keep quiet about the massive problems caused by the open borders distortion of the labour market.

  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jr has studied the form carefully, relying only on his subbutteo set for refinement.

    He is a more entertaining pundit than Phil "Mogadon" Neville.

    It is him in my Avatar by the way; dressed as the Fantastic Mr Fox for school book day some years ago.

    I am sorry to say he has Thursday down as 1:0 to Uruguay. Though we will beat Costa Rica 1:0.
    peter_from_putney said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Foxinsox jr continues his winning streak. Switzerland 2:1 now gives him 4/9 exact scores. It is proving fairly profiteable for us both. He has France 2 Honduras 0, Argentina 2 Bosnia 0 for tonights remaining matches.

    And for Monday
    Nigeria 2 Iran 1
    Germany 2 Portugal 2
    Ghana 3 USA 1

    I share PfP's view on Costa Rica, gotta be the value, though I think the Italians are too disciplined for them.

    peter_from_putney said:

    Group D Qualifiers

    I don't know whether it's me but as things stand England have 0 points and a goal difference of minus 1. Costa Rica on the other hand have 3 points and a goal difference of plus 2. To be sure of qualification therefore, England must win both their remaining games (big ask), whereas need to win one of their two games. In either case a tally of 4 points might suffice, with the outcome perhaps resting on goal difference, where Costa Rica clearly has the edge currently.
    In such circumstances, all things being equal (including their respective opposition), Costa Rica appear to have a better chance than England.
    Yet their respective odds with Betfair of doing do: England 2.04 (0.99/1 net in old money), Costa Rica 2.48 (1.41/1 net). I know which I'd rather be backing, but DYOR.


    Great stuff from Junior - is he old enough to take over from Phil "Them" Neville ?
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    MrJones said:

    Flightpath said:



    Press and other comments about Farage are based on what he and other UKIP MEPs and candidates have said and done and are saying and doing.
    A classic example for Farage was that on the eve of the by election he was not even in the country and irrespective of who he was with and why, he was not only not campaigning for his party at a vital time he was out partying til 4 in the morning. He staggered home to give a grossly misleading account of his party's expectations.
    This is perfectly true reporting. As is the situation where one of it leading winning MEPs was employing loads of cheap foreign labour and had charged them 50 quid a week for linving in bunkhouses. Are you telling me this is in line with UKIP policy?

    Farage has lower ratings because he deserves them.

    "This is perfectly true reporting. As is the situation where one of it leading winning MEPs was employing loads of cheap foreign labour and had charged them 50 quid a week for linving in bunkhouses."

    How many LibLabCon politicians are doing the same but unreported?

    It would only be "perfectly true reporting" if it was the whole truth.

    Doubly so because the media can seemingly find and report on this issue easily enough when it can be used as an anti-Ukip smear while the rest of the time they keep quiet about the massive problems caused by the open borders distortion of the labour market.

    Haha quality bias

    The day after Farage was pictured with the blond woman, he said "In future I wont bother helping disabled people"

    Front page of the Mirror the following day

    "FARAGE: I wont help the disabled again"
  • Life_ina_market_town
    Life_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    isam said:

    I agree, thats what I am saying isnt it? Sorry if I wasnt clear

    My point was that public policy should not be designed with the aim of ensuring that immigrants "integrate", whether by making their lives more difficult as a result of a supposed "failure to integrate" on their part or otherwise. I don't see why the "integration" of immigrants should be anyone's business but the immigrant's in question.
  • oldnat
    oldnat Posts: 136
    SouthamObserver said:

    oldnat said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    Gove surely drops out of the running completely in the case of a Yes vote.

    Are you suggesting that the Tory party is run by ethnic nationalists? Why should anyone representing an rUK constituency be excluded from consideration (other than for being no bloody good, which would rule Gove out, whichever way the referendum goes.)

    I am suggesting it'll be very tricky for any Scot - born and bred - to lead any party down south if Scotland becomes a foreign country. I think it would be difficult electorally, especially for the few years during the separation process. In the same way, I would not expect to see an English FM of an independent Scotland for many a long year.
    Although, I find it regrettable that parties in England would take a ctizen's place of birth into account, you are probably right that the Tea Party element would make such a situation difficult. Those such as Gove might find themselves deselected for that very reason.

    As it happens, the current Leaders/Deputy Leaders of the various parties in Scotland were born & bred here, but all parties have MSPs born elsewhere, and in Christian Allard, the SNP has an MSP who is a French citizen.
  • Ninoinoz
    Ninoinoz Posts: 1,312
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Pretentious? moi? I nearly choked on my latte when I read this

    Italian politician under fire after labelling English ‘pretentious pricks’

    • Maurizio Gasparri tweeted after Italy beat England in Brazil
    • Italian media call for vice-president of the Senate to resign

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/15/italian-politician-maurizio-gasparri-twitter-english

    Even true bred Englishmen like yourself must admit he has a point.

    England have failed to reach a major final in my lifetime. Italy? Seven.

    But every two years it's 'This could be England's year.' 'Thirty (and counting) years of hurt.' 'Best English team to leave these shores.'

    Gloating? Io?
  • oldnat
    oldnat Posts: 136
    Alanbrooke said:

    oldnat said:

    Flightpath said:

    Speedy said:

    By the way if I have to give advise on British values I would start with history classes.
    ....
    So for Britain it should be King Arthur, Robin Hood, the war of the roses, Elizabeth, the exploration era, the enlightment, Napoleon, the Empire, WW1 and WW2 somewhere in british values.

    The first two never existed.
    And the next two weren't "British".
    Haven't you died of boredom yet ? Two months to go and still nothing worthwhile in the Indyref debate.
    Nothing worthwhile?! Haven't you seen the Nob Orders contribution?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Ninoinoz said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Pretentious? moi? I nearly choked on my latte when I read this

    Italian politician under fire after labelling English ‘pretentious pricks’

    • Maurizio Gasparri tweeted after Italy beat England in Brazil
    • Italian media call for vice-president of the Senate to resign

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/15/italian-politician-maurizio-gasparri-twitter-english

    Even true bred Englishmen like yourself must admit he has a point.

    England have failed to reach a major final in my lifetime. Italy? Seven.

    But every two years it's 'This could be England's year.' 'Thirty (and counting) years of hurt.' 'Best English team to leave these shores.'

    Gloating? Io?
    Well according to Enoch Powell I'm not a true bred Englishman.

    But most English people I know weren't expecting England to win the World Cup.
  • MrJones
    MrJones Posts: 3,523
    isam said:

    British Values

    To try and intstill them in anyone by any government measure is absolutely ridiculous. There can be no definition of them, whoever tries to do so fails, it is pointless.

    The only way that immigrants learn British values is to be allowed in to the country in small enough numbers that would make failure to integrate almost impossible unless they were trying deliberately not to do so.

    Mass immigration means integration is almost impossible, you cant have both mass immigration and integration.

    Another example of "progressive" politicians not thinking a policy through, going ahead with an idealistic plan despite warnings that it is flawed, making a huge mess, and finding it impossible to clean up.

    Blair on the Middle East crisis today is an almost perfect example

    Yes, it's 95% about numbers over time.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Yes Scotland facing cash inquiry over 'front' groups

    Better Together complains to the Electoral Commission that Yes Scotland is using 'front' groups to circumvent strict referendum campaign spending limits.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10901524/Yes-Scotland-facing-cash-inquiry-over-front-groups.html
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think integration is not just about numbers, but also to how close culturally the migrants are to existing British values. This is a function of education as well as background culture so explains why Ugandan Asians and the post war Polish forces settled and integrated so well.

    I suspect that in a generation most of our EU migrants will be Brits with curious names, while we still have Trojan horse style issues in Birmingham.
    isam said:

    British Values

    To try and intstill them in anyone by any government measure is absolutely ridiculous. There can be no definition of them, whoever tries to do so fails, it is pointless.

    The only way that immigrants learn British values is to be allowed in to the country in small enough numbers that would make failure to integrate almost impossible unless they were trying deliberately not to do so.

    Mass immigration means integration is almost impossible, you cant have both mass immigration and integration.

    Another example of "progressive" politicians not thinking a policy through, going ahead with an idealistic plan despite warnings that it is flawed, making a huge mess, and finding it impossible to clean up.

    Blair on the Middle East crisis today is an almost perfect example

  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    Think France will win now Honduras are down to 10
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    France lead, Honduras down to ten men.
  • Stuart_Dickson
    Stuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Best prices - Uruguay v England

    Eng 13/10
    Uru 5/2
    Draw 5/2
  • MrJones
    MrJones Posts: 3,523
    Life_ina_market_town said:

    isam said:

    I agree, thats what I am saying isnt it? Sorry if I wasnt clear

    My point was that public policy should not be designed with the aim of ensuring that immigrants "integrate", whether by making their lives more difficult as a result of a supposed "failure to integrate" on their part or otherwise. I don't see why the "integration" of immigrants should be anyone's business but the immigrant's in question.
    The rate of immigration should be lower than the rate of integration.

    All any public politician needs to do is say that and then watch the PC self-destruct arguing against it.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Uruguay has to be the value with Suarez likely to be back.
    Stuart_Dickson said:

    Best prices - Uruguay v England

    Eng 13/10
    Uru 5/2
    Draw 5/2

  • MikeK
    MikeK Posts: 9,053
    Socrates said:

    I see the Muslim world is showing its best side this weekend:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27857343
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27858692
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27855994
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27801257
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27829343

    The joys of allah and his cohorts.
  • oldnat
    oldnat Posts: 136
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Yes Scotland facing cash inquiry over 'front' groups

    Better Together complains to the Electoral Commission that Yes Scotland is using 'front' groups to circumvent strict referendum campaign spending limits.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10901524/Yes-Scotland-facing-cash-inquiry-over-front-groups.html

    That was to be expected. Clearly the English Democrats are just an SNP front, while Nob Orders is a grassroots campaign (though rather short of root, while well endowed with the green stuff).

    "An Electoral Commission spokesman said: “If there has been a complaint, we will consider that and decide what action has to be taken.” - seems the most useful part of that article.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    oldnat said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Yes Scotland facing cash inquiry over 'front' groups

    Better Together complains to the Electoral Commission that Yes Scotland is using 'front' groups to circumvent strict referendum campaign spending limits.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10901524/Yes-Scotland-facing-cash-inquiry-over-front-groups.html

    That was to be expected. Clearly the English Democrats are just an SNP front, while Nob Orders is a grassroots campaign (though rather short of root, while well endowed with the green stuff).

    "An Electoral Commission spokesman said: “If there has been a complaint, we will consider that and decide what action has to be taken.” - seems the most useful part of that article.
    I'm always worried about (Scottish) National Fronts.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Green party peer put on database of 'extremists' after police surveillance

    Political movements of Jenny Jones and Green party councillor Ian Driver were recorded, though neither have a criminal record

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/15/green-party-peer-put-on-database-of-extremists-by-police
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Green party peer put on database of 'extremists' after police surveillance

    Political movements of Jenny Jones and Green party councillor Ian Driver were recorded, though neither have a criminal record

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/15/green-party-peer-put-on-database-of-extremists-by-police

    I have nothing but loathing for greenists but sounds bad.
  • viewcode
    viewcode Posts: 25,200
    Socrates said:



    Can you name a case where most UK MEPs voted for something, most German MEPs voted against it, and the measure passed?

    This is not an easy question to answer. Since UK MEPs do not vote as a bloc (so if the Con MEPs vote "yes", the Lab ones will vote "no") and ditto for Germany, there will be few occasions on which it (or its obverse) can happen, so little opportunity to prove it true or false.

    Off the top of my head, I'd say measures pertaining to unified EU military cooperation or intellectual property rights may meet your criteria, insofar as there may be a) a pan-UK stance on them, b) a pan-FRG stance on them, c) the two stances are in conflict, and d) the pan-UK stance won (at least for the time being).

    However to prove/disprove it would require going thru all the votes on all measures, totting up by country, then comparing UK to FRG and the end result.

    So the question becomes: does anybody have the votes per national party in the EP for each measure since, oooh, 2000? Serious question: I'll take Excel, Access, SAS or even txt files.

  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    Finally we have the technology being used and it's controversial. Oh dear me.
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    What the hell's going on with the goal line technology?
  • Ninoinoz
    Ninoinoz Posts: 1,312
    MarqueeMark said:

    Ninoinoz said:


    Remind me, who's won a national election in May?

    These numbers probably tell us more about the level of contempt the Euro elections are generally held in. Joke elections require a joke winner.....

    So, that means the Conservative and Labour Parties are jokes, as they won all the preceding Euro elections.

    Also, it is a bit of an expensive joke.
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    AndyJS said:

    What the hell's going on with the goal line technology?

    It's a joke. You bring in technology to avoid controversy and cause even more.
  • AndyJS
    AndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Does the ball itself have a chip in it to assist with the goal line technology?
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    foxinsoxuk said:

    I think integration is not just about numbers, but also to how close culturally the migrants are to existing British values. This is a function of education as well as background culture so explains why Ugandan Asians and the post war Polish forces settled and integrated so well.

    I suspect that in a generation most of our EU migrants will be Brits with curious names, while we still have Trojan horse style issues in Birmingham.

    isam said:

    British Values

    To try and intstill them in anyone by any government measure is absolutely ridiculous. There can be no definition of them, whoever tries to do so fails, it is pointless.

    The only way that immigrants learn British values is to be allowed in to the country in small enough numbers that would make failure to integrate almost impossible unless they were trying deliberately not to do so.

    Mass immigration means integration is almost impossible, you cant have both mass immigration and integration.

    Another example of "progressive" politicians not thinking a policy through, going ahead with an idealistic plan despite warnings that it is flawed, making a huge mess, and finding it impossible to clean up.

    Blair on the Middle East crisis today is an almost perfect example

    Yeah true enough
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    AndyJS said:

    Does the ball itself have a chip in it to assist with the goal line technology?

    Dunno

  • viewcode
    viewcode Posts: 25,200
    edited June 2014
    Socrates said:

    Can you name a case where most UK MEPs voted for something, most German MEPs voted against it, and the measure passed?

    Actually, instead of me promising something it'll take weeks to deliver, you'd be better advised to pop across to Steven Hix's website (http://personal.lse.ac.uk/HIX/ ) and ask him. He's the shit when it comes to Euro gubbins and if anybody can answer your query in the UK, it's him.
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    ToryJim said:

    AndyJS said:

    What the hell's going on with the goal line technology?

    It's a joke. You bring in technology to avoid controversy and cause even more.
    What controversy? It did its job, and the idiot of a commentator didn't understand.
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    ToryJim said:

    AndyJS said:

    Does the ball itself have a chip in it to assist with the goal line technology?

    Dunno

    No.
  • ToryJim
    ToryJim Posts: 4,193
    corporeal said:

    ToryJim said:

    AndyJS said:

    What the hell's going on with the goal line technology?

    It's a joke. You bring in technology to avoid controversy and cause even more.
    What controversy? It did its job, and the idiot of a commentator didn't understand.
    The crowd weren't happy
  • Hertsmere_Pubgoer
    Hertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    SeanT said:

    1. I missed the entire England-Italy match due to the fact I was having champagne fuelled sex with a hot Irish girl aged 26.

    2. Is this sad, vulgar, unpleasant, ageing middle aged male boast the pb equivalent of Chris Huhne's personalised numberplate?

    No, it just says that you're a lucky bugger.

  • NickPalmer
    NickPalmer Posts: 21,724
    Socrates said:

    Sean_F said:



    The Populist Right and Left are on the march, so centre-right and centre-left are sinking their differences, and teaming up.

    Are the populist left on the march in Europe? I don't see it happening generally. It's only really happening in the southern economies that have been subject to EU rule.
    Yeah, on the march overstates it, but they're doing very well in Greece, Spain and Denmark (where the smaller left party in Government has been exclipsed by radical rivals), moderately well in Germany (where the Left party has fully recovered from its shambles last year) and Sweden and if you see Sinn Fein as populist left rather than sui generis, Ireland too. They were doing well in Netherlands but the centrists have bounced back, and in Italy the centre-left is currently very strong. France is a nightmare for everyone except the FN, of course. The moderate to hard right are ahead in most of Eastern Europe.

  • Eh_ehm_a_eh
    Eh_ehm_a_eh Posts: 552
    SeanT said:

    1. I missed the entire England-Italy match due to the fact I was having champagne fuelled sex with a hot Irish girl aged 26.

    2. Is this sad, vulgar, unpleasant, ageing middle aged male boast the pb equivalent of Chris Huhne's personalised numberplate?

    No, just another sign of your insecurity.
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    ToryJim said:

    corporeal said:

    ToryJim said:

    AndyJS said:

    What the hell's going on with the goal line technology?

    It's a joke. You bring in technology to avoid controversy and cause even more.
    What controversy? It did its job, and the idiot of a commentator didn't understand.
    The crowd weren't happy
    I think if the technology had said no goal they'd have applauded it.
  • Ninoinoz
    Ninoinoz Posts: 1,312
    foxinsoxuk said:

    I think integration is not just about numbers, but also to how close culturally the migrants are to existing British values. This is a function of education as well as background culture so explains why Ugandan Asians and the post war Polish forces settled and integrated so well.

    The Poles after WWII and the Ugandan Asians knew they weren't going back. Ever.

    Also the Poles were overwhelming masculine i.e.soldiers, airmen, etc. and thus we forced to marry out, unlike those arriving more recently.
  • corporeal
    corporeal Posts: 2,549
    SeanT said:

    Ninoinoz said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Pretentious? moi? I nearly choked on my latte when I read this

    Italian politician under fire after labelling English ‘pretentious pricks’

    • Maurizio Gasparri tweeted after Italy beat England in Brazil
    • Italian media call for vice-president of the Senate to resign

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/15/italian-politician-maurizio-gasparri-twitter-english

    Even true bred Englishmen like yourself must admit he has a point.

    England have failed to reach a major final in my lifetime. Italy? Seven.

    But every two years it's 'This could be England's year.' 'Thirty (and counting) years of hurt.' 'Best English team to leave these shores.'

    Gloating? Io?
    But he wasn't tweeting about England's football boasting, he was having a rather revealing go at the English themselves.

    It is amazing how many countries have an inferiority complex vis a vis the English. I guess this is because we had the world's biggest empire ever, and our language is now the global language, and our Anglo-American culture is hegemonic blah de blah.

    This irritates the non-English, subconsciously, to a degree that is easily underestimated.

    The delicious irony is that this inferiority complex (which would astonish most self effacing pessimistic English people themselves) is revealed most overtly when the world beats us at football - a sport invented and codified by... the English.
    Eh, it's not like the English don't tweet about national stereotypes when we're playing another country at something.

    (Not that the other stuff is wrong, but you're hanging much to much on that tweet).
  • NickPalmer
    NickPalmer Posts: 21,724
    SeanT said:

    Eh_ehm_a_eh said:

    SeanT said:

    1. I missed the entire England-Italy match due to the fact I was having champagne fuelled sex with a hot Irish girl aged 26.

    2. Is this sad, vulgar, unpleasant, ageing middle aged male boast the pb equivalent of Chris Huhne's personalised numberplate?

    No, just another sign of your insecurity.
    Surely there is no contradiction. I have more fun than anyone else in the world, but thanks to dark psychic forces, I am obliged to gloat about it. Weird.
    Fun? You don't mention canvassing once. What sort of sad life is that?
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,457
    SeanT said:

    1. I missed the entire England-Italy match due to the fact I was having champagne fuelled sex with a hot Irish girl aged 26.

    2. Is this sad, vulgar, unpleasant, ageing middle aged male boast the pb equivalent of Chris Huhne's personalised numberplate?

    Go for it. Depend upon us though to let you know when you've reached the trouser-press-on-expenses stage.
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