27 days to go until the end of the transition and punters remain confident that there’ll be a deal –

1st. Unlike the punters who expect a deal.

https://twitter.com/BrunoBrussels/status/1334053687984001024?s=20

NY state dumped over 1M votes yesterday now at 95% - POTUS turnout now tops 158M and Biden 81M+ 51.3% .. Trump 74M+ 46.9% .. lead now 6.9M and will top out around 7.4M and 4.5% :

https://cookpolitical.com/2020-national-popular-vote-tracker

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

100% there will be a deal. There might well be an interim period of No Deal though...

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They are already second and third - Cameron beats both of them for stupidest policy decisions of all time (1 negotiation with the EU before the referendum, 2 holding the referendum with a simple majority required),

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

kle4 said:

Pulpstar said:

Wonder how much a Trump pardon costs ?
https://twitter.com/JohnJHarwood/status/1333909947042701316

Well, as Trump has taught us, making an allegation is itself proof.

Let’s not ask about Marc Rich then

Wasn't Mr Rich technically (and correctly) convicted in absentia?

He was pardoned by Clinton.

No one was interested in the donations his ex-wife made to the Clinton Foundation.

turbotubbs said:

FPT

Nigelb said:

DavidL said:

RobD said:

DavidL said:

How many million doses of Pfizer do we have bought?

Ten million units before Christmas, thirty million after that.

If we can 10m of the most vulnerable people vaccinated by Christmas our heated debates about whether we could or should relax regulations then are going to look very silly. That would be an incredible logistical achievement and an absolute game changer.

It would, but I think those numbers fairly unlikely.
The first batch is 800k doses -- 400k individuals. And we just don't know how many doses we'll get before Christmas.

This is slightly wrong - the first 800k will go into 800k people, and in two weeks those people will get another dose. We are not going to keep 400k in the fridge for two weeks.

Do you know that - the first batch could equally be 4 deliveries of 200,000 a week or 20 deliveries of 40,000 a day.

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

It takes two to tango. History will not be kind to the EU either.

Indeed, but we held all the cards and they did offer us an extension, history will be more unkind to Boris Johnson.

Ditto Michael Gove who loves the Union more than Brexit and yet....

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

Of course there will be a deal. Which will instantly be described as surrender by those on both extremes, either because the success of the almighty EU is so inevitable that they cannot see it any other way or because any deal involves compromise and that is the word of fifth columnists and traitors.

People not driven insane by Brexit will shrug and ignore the hysterical voices off whilst they concentrate on the important stuff, the vaccine, family, how to survive the economic disruption of the virus and family. Hopefully, one day, we will all move on. But I'm not holding my breath.

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

And whilst Boris wasn't the only driver of that train, he was the one who blew the whistle, or something.

Up to 2019, Boris did whatever he needed to do to get what he wanted.
Now he has what he coveted, and it has turned to a pile of poo, in a really predictable way.

Foxy said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

It takes two to tango. History will not be kind to the EU either.

Fog in the channel, the continent isolated...

Cut off.

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

If the majority opinion on here is that Betfair not settling yet is unfair then promoting the Smarkets deal no deal markets seems bizarre. What is widely described as no-deal may well be a deal under their rules. And unlike Betfair who only seed their markets, Smarkets can be heavily involved themselves. They are also far more aggressive in how they manage (or ban) clients, seemingly with a view to protecting their own future trading rather than growing commission. Rules below.

"If the UK and EU sign a trade deal between the 16th January 2020 and the 31st December 2020 this market will be settled as yes. If the trade deal is agreed in this period but comes into force at a later date, this market will be settled for yes.

This market covers any trade deal, either sector by sector or a complete deal.

If no trade deal is signed in this period between the EU and UK this market will be settled for no."

Luckyguy1983 said:

Foxy said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

It takes two to tango. History will not be kind to the EU either.

Fog in the channel, the continent isolated...

Cut off.

Actually, ignore me - Quora via Google tells me there's no evidence the headline ever existed (sadly).

Foxy said:

The state of replies to this! 🙄

https://twitter.com/MattHancock/status/1334030049788518401?s=09

Edit: I see @rottenborough liked this one too (and commented on it before me)

I particularly like the one (from a fairly young person by the profile pic) saying (i) how can we be sure this is safe and isn't it being rushed and (ii) why are you giving it to the old people first, us youngsters need protecting NOW!

George Russell must have delivered a hell of a Powerpoint presentation.

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

The question will never be settled permanently. 2000 years of history suggests that the question of European involvement and integration is never completely answered.

I think we will keep cycling in and out of different levels of integration with the continent. Being isolated before we joined weakened our economy to the point that we overcame our superiority complex and joined up. Over time our economy improved sufficiently that our superiority complex re-emerged and we left. Now we are likely to see our economy fade again thanks to our isolation, until we are weak enough that we want to join up again. And so the cycle will repeat itself.

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

If Remain had won 52-48, more people would have voted for Brexit than it takes to win a General Election. That would have created an irresistible momentum within the Tory party for exactly the same kind of revolution that we've seen since 2016.

Stuartinromford said:

TOPPING said:

There will of course be a deal. It may even start on Jan 1st.

If not then there will be a look-it's-an-extension-but-we've-fooled- @Philip_Thompson - so-everyone-keep-quiet situation.

Another way of looking at the logic is to start at "The UK isn't remotely ready to operate outside the EEA in a month's time." (We're not, are we? And that's nobody's fault but the UK government's.)
Therefore the UK needs some continuation of current arrangements.
Therefore we need some sort of deal.

AKA "It's no good having aces in your pocket if you can't reach your pocket because you're over a barrel."

The only question left is whether Boris's need for a deal overcomes his fear of a deal before January 1 or afterwards.

There is a strong logic to this argument. My only concern is that this disaster capitalist regime may actually view the chaos of no deal as an opportunity. Nevertheless, I think we probably will get a deal.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

The question will never be settled permanently. 2000 years of history suggests that the question of European involvement and integration is never completely answered.

I think we will keep cycling in and out of different levels of integration with the continent. Being isolated before we joined weakened our economy to the point that we overcame our superiority complex and joined up. Over time our economy improved sufficiently that our superiority complex re-emerged and we left. Now we are likely to see our economy fade again thanks to our isolation, until we are weak enough that we want to join up again. And so the cycle will repeat itself.

Um, no.

MarqueeMark said:

It's a weird situation where the vast bulk of the detail has been sorted out but nobody wants to take ownership of the over-arching principles that govern that detail.

We have a raft of settled arrangements that could be slid in place on 1st January as ad hoc arrangements in lieu of a "deal". Just do that and carry on talking.

You mean an extension?

williamglenn said:

MarqueeMark said:

It's a weird situation where the vast bulk of the detail has been sorted out but nobody wants to take ownership of the over-arching principles that govern that detail.

We have a raft of settled arrangements that could be slid in place on 1st January as ad hoc arrangements in lieu of a "deal". Just do that and carry on talking.

You mean an extension?

If that's what you want to call it, you will. I'm suggesting more end of tarmac, carry on along the dirt track.....

TrèsDifficile said:

How are we supposed to pronounce BioNTech?

To me, it seems natural to make it like three words as the capital letters imply: Bio - N - Tech, but merged together. Every time I hear it said on the TV or radio, though, it sounds like it's made by Beyonce's pharmaceutical division, or like Beyond-Tech dropping the D.

When I was designing products for them, we always pronounced it as "Bye on Tech". I guess Americans say "Bee on Tech".

noneoftheabove said:

If the majority opinion on here is that Betfair not settling yet is unfair then promoting the Smarkets deal no deal markets seems bizarre. What is widely described as no-deal may well be a deal under their rules. And unlike Betfair who only seed their markets, Smarkets can be heavily involved themselves. They are also far more aggressive in how they manage (or ban) clients, seemingly with a view to protecting their own future trading rather than growing commission. Rules below.

"If the UK and EU sign a trade deal between the 16th January 2020 and the 31st December 2020 this market will be settled as yes. If the trade deal is agreed in this period but comes into force at a later date, this market will be settled for yes.

This market covers any trade deal, either sector by sector or a complete deal.

If no trade deal is signed in this period between the EU and UK this market will be settled for no."

Personally I'm avoiding smarkets as they do seem to be heavily involved in their own exchange.
Betfair's refusal to settle (yet) is actually understandable. We're not past safe harbour in terms of election challenges, in fact SCOTUS could rule Kelly's challenge to PA's result correct - Act 77 arguably did not have a PA constitutional amendment passed so is void.
I mean it makes the entire PA statehouse void too, as well as being the biggest power grab into both state legislatures and state courts ever - so I'd wager it unlikely to occur. There's also the issue of WI's "indefinitely confined" voters which could go somewhere.
I can't see any such constitutional issues with AZ, NV, GA and MI so even if those results were ruled void (Which is massively massively unlikely) Biden still has 276 electoral college votes and wins.
But we're not yet past safe harbour which should be the proper time to pay out on the presidency as beyond that point 'projected' electoral college votes are only in doubt by faithless electors - which would mean the likes of Stacey Abrams and Hillary Clinton casting a vote for Trump, again possible but at that point not only beyond all reasonable doubt but also outside Betfair's rules on faithless electors.

Where Betfair have shit the bed is by stating it will be the 14th and not the 8th that the markets will be decided - the above ambiguity regarding faithless electors is theoretically in play.

Gallowgate said:

TrèsDifficile said:

How are we supposed to pronounce BioNTech?

To me, it seems natural to make it like three words as the capital letters imply: Bio - N - Tech, but merged together. Every time I hear it said on the TV or radio, though, it sounds like it's made by Beyonce's pharmaceutical division, or like Beyond-Tech dropping the D.

When I was designing products for them, we always pronounced it as "Bye on Tech". I guess Americans say "Bee on Tech".

Do they have Bee-ology teachers in the US?

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

It was but the way he handled it was full of hubris.

He should have either negotiated much harder with the EU or if he was never serious about renegotiating or considering leaving then he should have spoken to John Howard about how to arrange a referendum.

Comparing the way John Howard handled the republic referendum and the way David Cameron handled the Brexit one, with both leaders wanting a No vote, is a complete masterclass of difference.

The thing that I found most interesting in the past few days is how other countries within the EU are worried that Barnier night concede too much.

Of course he might. We hold all the cards.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

The question will never be settled permanently. 2000 years of history suggests that the question of European involvement and integration is never completely answered.

I think we will keep cycling in and out of different levels of integration with the continent. Being isolated before we joined weakened our economy to the point that we overcame our superiority complex and joined up. Over time our economy improved sufficiently that our superiority complex re-emerged and we left. Now we are likely to see our economy fade again thanks to our isolation, until we are weak enough that we want to join up again. And so the cycle will repeat itself.

The EU's expensive haute couture never looked good on our lumpy British body politic. And when politicians first start talking about rejoining the EU again, an unforgiving populace will be measuring up the metaphoric lamp posts.

Nobody who lived through it will want to go through this again in decades. They'd probably rather go through Covid.

Philip_Thompson said:

The thing that I found most interesting in the past few days is how other countries within the EU are worried that Barnier night concede too much.

Of course he might. We hold all the cards.

For god sake have a day off and take your cards with you.

Philip_Thompson said:

The thing that I found most interesting in the past few days is how other countries within the EU are worried that Barnier night concede too much.

Of course he might. We hold all the cards.

Still persisting with this nonsense I see.

TrèsDifficile said:

Gallowgate said:

TrèsDifficile said:

How are we supposed to pronounce BioNTech?

To me, it seems natural to make it like three words as the capital letters imply: Bio - N - Tech, but merged together. Every time I hear it said on the TV or radio, though, it sounds like it's made by Beyonce's pharmaceutical division, or like Beyond-Tech dropping the D.

When I was designing products for them, we always pronounced it as "Bye on Tech". I guess Americans say "Bee on Tech".

Do they have Bee-ology teachers in the US?

Yep, where I went to school in Atlanta. I had to write with a pin or a pincil too.

Stuartinromford said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

The question will never be settled permanently. 2000 years of history suggests that the question of European involvement and integration is never completely answered.

I think we will keep cycling in and out of different levels of integration with the continent. Being isolated before we joined weakened our economy to the point that we overcame our superiority complex and joined up. Over time our economy improved sufficiently that our superiority complex re-emerged and we left. Now we are likely to see our economy fade again thanks to our isolation, until we are weak enough that we want to join up again. And so the cycle will repeat itself.

Um, no.

Why not?

Because it's a totally made up piece of shite. There is no evidence that EEC membership had any accelerative affect on GDP growth (or whatever measure you wish to use) - in fact it appears to have flatlined in the years immediately following accession, which doesn't speak to a glorious economic feeding frenzy does it? The economic rationale for joining was to get inside the tariff walls, but tariffs declined as a factor over the years anyway.

williamglenn said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

If Remain had won 52-48, more people would have voted for Brexit than it takes to win a General Election. That would have created an irresistible momentum within the Tory party for exactly the same kind of revolution that we've seen since 2016.

Yes, it was clear that something had to be done to slay the Brexit dragon. In retrospect, it would have made much more sense to have had a succession of referendums on successive stages of the process. For example, a referendum on whether to plan a withdrawal, and then another referendum on actually withdrawing once the plans had been drawn up.

MarqueeMark said:

Nobody who lived through it will want to go through this again in decades. They'd probably rather go through Covid.

Yes, Covid is not as bad as No Deal Brexit.

An extension you say?

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1334068836132401152

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

The thing that I found most interesting in the past few days is how other countries within the EU are worried that Barnier night concede too much.

Of course he might. We hold all the cards.

Still persisting with this nonsense I see.

Why is it nonsense? We have a pair of pocket aces. That is why the EU is compromising.

Time will tell who is right. You're as hubristic as Cameron if you can't even contemplate the idea that I might actually be right - I recognise that I might be wrong, are so arrogant that you can not contemplate the idea that you might be wrong and I might be right?

Malmesbury said:

CarlottaVance said:

Looks like the US will be prioritising vaccination similarly to the UK:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-vaccines-cdc/scarce-early-vaccine-supply-should-go-to-health-workers-nursing-homes-u-s-health-advisers-idUSKBN28B6B3

It will be... interesting too watch the interaction between the federal and state authorities on this.

Remember, Trump is in the White House as President until January. No way will he not interfere. Then you have the various state governments - ranging from sensible to full eyes-bleeding-QAnon

I'm sure it will all be fine....

https://twitter.com/EIDGeek/status/1333963632254865411

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

It was but the way he handled it was full of hubris.

He should have either negotiated much harder with the EU or if he was never serious about renegotiating or considering leaving then he should have spoken to John Howard about how to arrange a referendum.

Comparing the way John Howard handled the republic referendum and the way David Cameron handled the Brexit one, with both leaders wanting a No vote, is a complete masterclass of difference.

The reason Cameron should have insisted, as Howard did, on a commission to nail down what Leave actually meant, is not so he could win the referendum but so that we did not end up where we did, with Leave winning but every Brexiteer having their own unicorn version of Brexit in mind.

The reason Cameron lost was the same reason he almost lost Scotland, relying entirely on negative campaigning with no-one, least of all Cameron himself, making a positive case for membership of the EU.

That is definitely an issue.

Though the John Howard trick won him the referendum too and could have won Remain the referendum by allowing people to campaign against a specific proposal.

So basically Cameron stuffed up on three points.

1. He made a big deal about renegotiating, then didn't bother to have any meaningful renegotiation.
   
2. He campaigned for Remain without bothering to give any positive reasons as to why do so.
   
3. He held the referendum without bothering to get Leavers to come up with a proposal first, John Howard style.
   

Basically he half-arsed and winged it because he hubristically felt he couldn't lose.

Richard_Nabavi said:

https://twitter.com/RichardNabavi/status/1334070056620318720

It's something of an irony that, as we stand on the verge of a Brexit partly brought about by fear of Turkish immigration, we are celebrating the approval of a vaccine developed on the basis of research by a German company founded by a Turkish immigrant to the EU.

CarlottaVance said:

Not sure I'd be making this point - not going to make the lives of our continental neighbours any easier....

twitter.com/TimesRadio/status/1334067497700560897?s=20
twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1334068994345754625?s=20

That's just so unnecessary to point out. We should be hoping that the EU approves it quickly so that the EU economy bounces back too.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

It was but the way he handled it was full of hubris.

He should have either negotiated much harder with the EU or if he was never serious about renegotiating or considering leaving then he should have spoken to John Howard about how to arrange a referendum.

Comparing the way John Howard handled the republic referendum and the way David Cameron handled the Brexit one, with both leaders wanting a No vote, is a complete masterclass of difference.

The reason Cameron should have insisted, as Howard did, on a commission to nail down what Leave actually meant, is not so he could win the referendum but so that we did not end up where we did, with Leave winning but every Brexiteer having their own unicorn version of Brexit in mind.

The reason Cameron lost was the same reason he almost lost Scotland, relying entirely on negative campaigning with no-one, least of all Cameron himself, making a positive case for membership of the EU.

Here is David Cameron:
Like many, I have had my doubts about the European Union as an organisation. I still do. But just because an organisation is frustrating it does not mean that you should necessarily walk out of it, and certainly not without thinking very carefully through the consequences.

Is it any wonder Remain lost? It's not even always keep tight hold of nurse but more like let go of nurse's hand once you've thought about it!

David Cameron really was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North.

Philip_Thompson said:

Stuartinromford said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Stuartinromford said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

The question will never be settled permanently. 2000 years of history suggests that the question of European involvement and integration is never completely answered.

I think we will keep cycling in and out of different levels of integration with the continent. Being isolated before we joined weakened our economy to the point that we overcame our superiority complex and joined up. Over time our economy improved sufficiently that our superiority complex re-emerged and we left. Now we are likely to see our economy fade again thanks to our isolation, until we are weak enough that we want to join up again. And so the cycle will repeat itself.

Um, no.

Why not?

Because we rejected socialism last year.

That is the reason the UK was weak, not because we were out of the EEC. We had the Winter of Discontent and the IMF bailout after joining the EEC. It was Thatcherism that saved the UK not Europe.

We did.
But future generations- who knows?

The idea that this decision- among all democratic decisions- is irreversible seems pretty dangerous.

People thought that liberal democracy had definitively triumphed in the late 1990's. They talked about "The End Of History".

Thinking your version of society has won the argument forever is pretty creepy, actually. It's certainly hubristic.

And hubris doesn't have a great track record of being followed by massive ongoing success.

On that I completely agree, we must always keep a watchful eye and ensure socialism is defeated in this nation. We can never take it for granted as the near miss of 2017 shows.

Europe is a sideshow when it comes to that.

A dose of socialism would level the playing field and put the greedy money grabbing tories back in their box for a while, you can’t claim it would ruin the economy it’s doing that for itself. Then when people are fed up of socialism they can vote for something else.

Richard_Nabavi said:

https://twitter.com/RichardNabavi/status/1334070056620318720

Why bring the CEO's race into it?

Philip_Thompson said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not sure I'd be making this point - not going to make the lives of our continental neighbours any easier....

https://twitter.com/TimesRadio/status/1334067497700560897?s=20
https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1334068994345754625?s=20

I wouldn't be saying it because I wouldn't want FBPE idiots turning into antivaxxers in response.

But its true, 100% true.

This is part of what I've long argued here that the UK out of the EU can be more nimble and agile than the sclerotic and slow EU. This is a perfect example and high profile but other things will add up that don't get the publicity.

Its a huge win but I wouldn't boast about it to put salt in the wounds or get Remain idiots turning into antivax idiots. Take the politics out of communications, even if Brexit did help facilitate it.

BiB - Nah, it would be ****ing hilarious if that happened.

I'm intensely relaxed about the uptake of the vaccine. Far too much attention gets given to nutters on the internet; they are a tiny minority of the population.

nichomar said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Stuartinromford said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Stuartinromford said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

eek said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

CarlottaVance said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We've run out of time for a deal.

I'm by nature an optimist - but I fear short sightedness - on both sides - means it will be no deal.

Boris Johnson will always feel the scorn and contempt of history for No Dealing during a pandemic.

The ghosts of Eden and Chamberlain will be able to say in good conscience 'No longer the worst!'

They already won't - Cameron probably beats both of them for stupidest policy decision of all time.

The referendum train was coming long before Dave.

Perhaps, but he was solely responsible for framing and choreographing it in such an inevitably catastrophic way. Even if Remain had won it wouldn't have settled anything.

I think it would. Even a narrow win would not have set off demands for another try - part of the pro-referendum thing was the Irish second vote - "They make us vote until we give them the answer we want".

I was expecting a narrow win, followed by peace and quiet until the whole country charged out of the EU, a number of years later, over the creation of an EU wide health service.

The question will never be settled permanently. 2000 years of history suggests that the question of European involvement and integration is never completely answered.

I think we will keep cycling in and out of different levels of integration with the continent. Being isolated before we joined weakened our economy to the point that we overcame our superiority complex and joined up. Over time our economy improved sufficiently that our superiority complex re-emerged and we left. Now we are likely to see our economy fade again thanks to our isolation, until we are weak enough that we want to join up again. And so the cycle will repeat itself.

Um, no.

Why not?

Because we rejected socialism last year.

That is the reason the UK was weak, not because we were out of the EEC. We had the Winter of Discontent and the IMF bailout after joining the EEC. It was Thatcherism that saved the UK not Europe.

We did.
But future generations- who knows?

The idea that this decision- among all democratic decisions- is irreversible seems pretty dangerous.

People thought that liberal democracy had definitively triumphed in the late 1990's. They talked about "The End Of History".

Thinking your version of society has won the argument forever is pretty creepy, actually. It's certainly hubristic.

And hubris doesn't have a great track record of being followed by massive ongoing success.

On that I completely agree, we must always keep a watchful eye and ensure socialism is defeated in this nation. We can never take it for granted as the near miss of 2017 shows.

Europe is a sideshow when it comes to that.

A dose of socialism would level the playing field and put the greedy money grabbing tories back in their box for a while, you can’t claim it would ruin the economy it’s doing that for itself. Then when people are fed up of socialism they can vote for something else.

Absolute it will, socialism is brilliant and tearing people down and levelling down. Socialism is great at tearing people down and destroying the economy, unfortunately the richest can afford to flee such insanity and the poorest just languish without being aided.

Of course people will vote for something else once fed up but it will be wasted years and then take a long time and hard work to fix the damage. Better not to inflict that damage in the first place.