Setting An Example – politicalbetting.com

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

DougSeal said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

How do you double the size of the NHS overnight? Kidnapping doctors and nurses from overseas or reducing medical training to a 2 hour PowerPoint presentation? Either route is brave.

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

Me too.

There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.

HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.

You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this

I am a Conservative.
I am a compatriot.
I am a voter.

That should be three reasons why you can care.

But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.

You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.

You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon

The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.

As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.

But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.

I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-lib-dems-will-oppose-holding-indyref2-at-any-point?top

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-54325592

2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES.
2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?

A pro Scottish independence and anti Brexit voter in Epping will I assure you never be voting Tory anyway

A significant proportion of English Tory voters back English independence.

An even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

No, 48% of English Tory voters would be upset if Scotland left, only 20% pleased.

A majority also believe the 2014 referendum result must be respected, unlike you
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

Your link doesn't as far as I can see say a majority believes that the 2014 result must be respected, but even if it did it would be irrelevant. However actually your link matches exactly what I said, not you.

A significant proportion (1/5th of Tories is significant) back it and an even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

Overall for the English only 46% think Scotland should remain in the UK, which is than the 47% which either think that they have no opinion it is for the people of Scotland to decide, or that Scotland should go independent.

According to that link 49% of Tories either would be pleased or not be bothered if Scotland goes independent, those upset are outnumbered at only 48%.

So you are in a minority. By your own link.

No far more English Tories are opposed to Scottish independence than support it but anyway we have a UK Tory government I must remind you not an English Tory government and in 2014 95% of Scottish Tories voted against independence

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf

The English Tories who respect Scotland's right to decide are with the English Tories who want Scotland to go independent on this issue. So you are in the minority, 49% beats 48%.

They don't respect their decision, as long as they get Brexit the remainder don't care if Boris bans indyref2 for ever which is what most Scottish Tories want

[Citation Needed]

The YouGov poll linked said that 20% want Scotland to go independent and 29% think it is a matter for the Scots. That's 49%

You are in a minority of 48%. Not for the first time I might add.

A plurality actively oppose independence the rest mainly do not care either way, Scottish Tories overwhelmingly however believe indyref2 should be banned, as long as English Tories get Brexit they are not that bothered and there is no way Boris will risk being the worst PM since Lord North in the history books by losing Scotland as he lost America

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a good Muslim boy I've never eaten a Scotch egg, so have I missed out?

Because it sounds minging'

TheScreamingEagles said:

Wait, what?

Haggis Scotch eggs with Irn-Bru dip

https://www.asdagoodliving.co.uk/food/recipes/haggis-scotch-eggs-with-irn-bru-dip

Theuniondivvie said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a good Muslim boy I've never eaten a Scotch egg, so have I missed out?

Because it sounds minging'

Don't you come from the land of the faggot?
We all have our culinary crosses to bear (Scotland perhaps more than most), though I believe the Scotch Egg was a London invention.

Roger said:

RochdalePioneers said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less

Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:

1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system.
2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities.
3. Supports the Union.
4. Voted for Brexit.

So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?

Only HYUFD is a Tory. Everyone else who identifies as a Tory is a traitor of varying descriptions who need to be abused and insulted and then asked if they will vote Tory.

I've seen Labour activists argue on the doorstep with life-long Labour voters for their betrayal of the Labour party as defined by the jumped-up cretin who thinks their view is the only view. I would pay real money to a real charity to go canvassing with HYUFD in Glasgow, to have him knock on their door, tell them he doesn't care what they think and to shut up.

I think BluestBlue has to be worth a mention. Most of us would be RedestRed using an avatar as embarrassing as that.

RobD said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

Double the size of the NHS overnight. How do you propose to do this?

Theuniondivvie said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a good Muslim boy I've never eaten a Scotch egg, so have I missed out?

Because it sounds minging'

Don't you come from the land of the faggot?
We all have our culinary crosses to bear (Scotland perhaps more than most), though I believe the Scotch Egg was a London invention.

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

Double the size of the NHS overnight. How do you propose to do this?

Don;t ask me ask the government. They sold the population the idea the original lockdown was to boost capacity. It very much looks as if capacity was not increased at all, let alone doubled. Nightingales were mothballed.

Why? because the NHS realised that if NHS capacity was demonstrably increased, people would have less patience with their cancer screening being cancelled for months or their GP being un contactable.

No. Much better to keep capacity the same and simply slash the level of service people are getting. Let the patient take the strain of covid, not the NHS.

Theuniondivvie said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1333802528010428417

Is it bigoted of me to think that the one who was busted in an illegal gangbang with men looks the most likely to have been busted in an illegal gangbang with men?

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

RobD said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

A winter respiratory disease like any other? What planet are you on?

I was looking at winter respiratory disease levels as a group. They are pretty much normal for this time of year (Flu has fallen off a cliff right?)

Yeah, current incidence is low, but that is likely because of all the restrictions. Saying Covid is just like any winter respiratory disease is complete bollocks.

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

A winter respiratory disease like any other? What planet are you on?

I was looking at winter respiratory disease levels as a group. They are pretty much normal for this time of year (Flu has fallen off a cliff right?)

Theuniondivvie said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1333802528010428417

Is it bigoted of me to think that the one who was busted in an illegal gangbang with men looks the most likely to have been busted in an illegal gangbang with men?

RochdalePioneers said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I voted Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2019.

Unless you have voted Tory in every election in your life, know all 17 verses of Rule Britannia off by heart and have had Winston Churchill tattooed on your left buttock, you aren't a real Tory.

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

Double the size of the NHS overnight. How do you propose to do this?

Don;t ask me ask the government. They sold the population the idea the original lockdown was to boost capacity. It very much looks as if capacity was not increased at all, let alone doubled. Nightingales were mothballed.

Why? because the NHS realised that if NHS capacity was demonstrably increased, people would have less patience with their cancer screening being cancelled for months or their GP being un contactable.

No. Much better to keep capacity the same and simply slash the level of service people are getting. Let the patient take the strain of covid, not the NHS.

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

RochdalePioneers said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I voted Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2019.

Unless you have voted Tory in every election in your life, know all 17 verses of Rule Britannia off by heart and have had Winston Churchill tattooed on your left buttock, you aren't a real Tory.

RochdalePioneers said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I voted Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2019.

Unless you have voted Tory in every election in your life, know all 17 verses of Rule Britannia off by heart and have had Winston Churchill tattooed on your left buttock, you aren't a real Tory.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Murder Tuesday thanks to all those false positives

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1333807618708688901

Sandpit said:

rottenborough said:

Biden out at 1.06 on NotSettledFair with exactly 50 days until he takes office.

Gotta be tempting to bet the mortgage on it at this point (not that I’m going to), for anyone who can get their hands on a pile of cash at decent rates.

kjh said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

Double the size of the NHS overnight. How do you propose to do this?

Don;t ask me ask the government. They sold the population the idea the original lockdown was to boost capacity. It very much looks as if capacity was not increased at all, let alone doubled. Nightingales were mothballed.

Why? because the NHS realised that if NHS capacity was demonstrably increased, people would have less patience with their cancer screening being cancelled for months or their GP being un contactable.

No. Much better to keep capacity the same and simply slash the level of service people are getting. Let the patient take the strain of covid, not the NHS.

You do talk tosh. The Nightingales were fitted out with beds all with respirators in case the worse happened and we had a mass of covid patients needing them. The staff would have come from existing hospitals plus any that could have been brought back into service from outside. In my wife's firm all the medics including her volunteered and the business had a plan to release them if necessary.

But even still both existing hospitals and the Nightingales would have been on emergency staffing.

That is not the same as just doubling the NHS overnight.

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1333804534892695555

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I voted Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2019.

Unless you have voted Tory in every election in your life, know all 17 verses of Rule Britannia off by heart and have had Winston Churchill tattooed on your left buttock, you aren't a real Tory.

Au contraire. By the standards set down here this afternoon, Winston Churchill falls head and shoulders short of the requirements.

Indeed Thatcher or Disraeli would be more appropriate, Churchill was even a Liberal MP for a period, great man though he was

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1333798043452198912?s=20

TheScreamingEagles said:

Murder Tuesday thanks to all those false positives

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1333807618708688901

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

"Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? "

Damn it, why do we spend any money on the army when there aren't any wars? If we need an army we can just click our fingers and generate one in a few seconds. All that materiel, all those trained people, it just requires political will.

Why aren't you in charge, @contrarian? Because we could save a FORTUNE.

algarkirk said:

Under the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish Parliament is not allowed to pass legislation relating to matters “reserved” to Westminster, including “the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England”. This is widely interpreted to mean that any referendum relating to Scottish independence would require Westminster approval. However, the matter has never been tested in court, so there remains some uncertainty about whether Holyrood could hold an advisory referendum without consent.



So says the Institute for Government last week

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

Mexicanpete said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I voted Leave in 2016 and Tory in 2019.

Unless you have voted Tory in every election in your life, know all 17 verses of Rule Britannia off by heart and have had Winston Churchill tattooed on your left buttock, you aren't a real Tory.

Au contraire. By the standards set down here this afternoon, Winston Churchill falls head and shoulders short of the requirements.

Indeed Thatcher or Disraeli would be more appropriate, Churchill was even a Liberal MP for a period, great man though he was

It may be rather disturbing, but surely IDS would be the perfect tattoo for the perfect Tory.

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I did, you did not. Despite your insistence that my views should be disregarded by the Tories.

Worth remembering that in 2019 there were two national elections and the Tories got less than 9% in one of them. I was in the 43% and 52% like most Tories but also like most Tories I was not in the 9%.

Of those three votes HYUFD I was with the majority of Tories on all them. You were against the majority of Tories twice.

Just skimmed PT and was pleased to see that according to you we are holding a pair of "pocket aces" in our negotiations with Brussels. A genuine spirit lifter. So much so that I'll be skipping my usual this evening.

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1333798043452198912?s=20

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I did, you did not. Despite your insistence that my views should be disregarded by the Tories.

Worth remembering that in 2019 there were two national elections and the Tories got less than 9% in one of them. I was in the 43% and 52% like most Tories but also like most Tories I was not in the 9%.

Of those three votes HYUFD I was with the majority of Tories on all them. You were against the majority of Tories twice.

I voted Tory last year and in 2001 unlike you.

However I have never denied you are a Leave voter who split their vote between the Brexit party last May and the Tories last December, on Brexit at least you are very much in the minority on here, even more so than me

Yes you lost the 2001 election as well as losing the Referendum and losing the European Parliament election.

Your vision of the party is a party that loses elections and secures less than 9% of the vote nationwide. Good job.

I have voted for the party more times when it has won than it has lost but I am a loyal supporter not a libertarian swing voter who is not a real Tory like you and has voted for Farage and Blair in the past.

You are about as committed a Tory as a Manchester United supporter living in Kensington

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1333798043452198912?s=20

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1333804534892695555

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1333805865175031808?s=20

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I did, you did not. Despite your insistence that my views should be disregarded by the Tories.

Worth remembering that in 2019 there were two national elections and the Tories got less than 9% in one of them. I was in the 43% and 52% like most Tories but also like most Tories I was not in the 9%.

Of those three votes HYUFD I was with the majority of Tories on all them. You were against the majority of Tories twice.

I voted Tory last year and in 2001 unlike you.

However I have never denied you are a Leave voter who split their vote between the Brexit party last May and the Tories last December, on Brexit at least you are very much in the minority on here, even more so than me

Yes you lost the 2001 election as well as losing the Referendum and losing the European Parliament election.

Your vision of the party is a party that loses elections and secures less than 9% of the vote nationwide. Good job.

I have voted for the party more times when it has won than it has lost but I am a loyal supporter not a libertarian swing voter who is not a real Tory like you and has voted for Farage and Blair in the past.

You are about as committed a Tory as a Manchester United supporter living in Kensington

And both Philip and I are why the conservative party gets elected more often than not, and not because of your narrow minded prejeudices

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1333798043452198912?s=20

So no Jägerbomb Karaoke this year then..

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1333804534892695555

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1333805865175031808?s=20

Fingers crossed

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

OnboardG1 said:

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

How many PBers both voted Tory in 2019 and voted Leave in 2016? I suspect only a small minority now but 43% of UK voters voted for the former last year and 52% for the latter in 2016 so Contrarian has a point

I did, you did not. Despite your insistence that my views should be disregarded by the Tories.

Worth remembering that in 2019 there were two national elections and the Tories got less than 9% in one of them. I was in the 43% and 52% like most Tories but also like most Tories I was not in the 9%.

Of those three votes HYUFD I was with the majority of Tories on all them. You were against the majority of Tories twice.

I voted Tory last year and in 2001 unlike you.

However I have never denied you are a Leave voter who split their vote between the Brexit party last May and the Tories last December, on Brexit at least you are very much in the minority on here, even more so than me

Yes you lost the 2001 election as well as losing the Referendum and losing the European Parliament election.

Your vision of the party is a party that loses elections and secures less than 9% of the vote nationwide. Good job.

I have voted for the party more times when it has won than it has lost but I am a loyal supporter not a libertarian swing voter who is not a real Tory like you and has voted for Farage and Blair in the past.

You are about as committed a Tory as a Manchester United supporter living in Kensington

And both Philip and I are why the conservative party gets elected more often than not, and not because of your narrow minded prejeudices

How dare you two vote for the Conservative Party! It doesn't want votes from the likes of you, only from real Tories.

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

"Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? "

Damn it, why do we spend any money on the army when there aren't any wars? If we need an army we can just click our fingers and generate one in a few seconds. All that materiel, all those trained people, it just requires political will.

Why aren't you in charge, @contrarian? Because we could save a FORTUNE.

So again, I put it to you that the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a completely false premise. There was no way the NHS could have increased capacity that quickly, or in fact at all.

Increasing capacity was used to sell the falsehood that resources were not being diverted from other services to covid in a completely unchanged size health service.

And then when covid subsided, say in the summer, what happened to to those diverted services? they didn;t flow back into other treatments, eh?

No the NHS simply got used to producing much less.

contrarian said:

kjh said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

OK just run the numbers. Why didn;t the government simply leave society to run free and just double the size of the health service over night?? No furlough. No test and trace. Just an enormous health service to cater for the population's increased needs. They could have done this and saved themselves a quarter of trillion pounds overnight.

Why didn;t they? Nightingale hospitals were mothballed instead? Increasing capacity was clearly not what the NHS wanted. They didn;t want to 'make room' for the virus themselves. They wanted the population to make room. And the population have. With catastrophic results.

The NHS is, in fact, British Stalinism made flesh. It should be smashed to smithereens.

Double the size of the NHS overnight. How do you propose to do this?

Don;t ask me ask the government. They sold the population the idea the original lockdown was to boost capacity. It very much looks as if capacity was not increased at all, let alone doubled. Nightingales were mothballed.

Why? because the NHS realised that if NHS capacity was demonstrably increased, people would have less patience with their cancer screening being cancelled for months or their GP being un contactable.

No. Much better to keep capacity the same and simply slash the level of service people are getting. Let the patient take the strain of covid, not the NHS.

You do talk tosh. The Nightingales were fitted out with beds all with respirators in case the worse happened and we had a mass of covid patients needing them. The staff would have come from existing hospitals plus any that could have been brought back into service from outside. In my wife's firm all the medics including her volunteered and the business had a plan to release them if necessary.

But even still both existing hospitals and the Nightingales would have been on emergency staffing.

That is not the same as just doubling the NHS overnight.

So the original idea of lockdown, to increase NHS capacity to cater for COVID must have been a giant lie then? you seem to be arguing its impossible to increase capacity.