2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Yes, the UK constitution is that... parliament is sovereign. The court of appeal reaffirmed that in their ruling on prorogation, a court that could be unmade by a simple act of parliament. Of course parliament is decided by the people with votes cast on paper ballots and counted overnight and the next day, result returned by the returning officers. A much simpler and more efficient system than the US nonsense they are undergoing right now. I'm not sure what we'd do if parliament attempted to repeal the 1911 act or even the previous one to leave itself in perpetuity. You'd have to hope MPs wouldn't vote for such dangerous nonsense. It's an unlikely hypothetical but precisely the sort of thing Trump might have gone for would he have been in charge of a system such as ours.
I'm not sure that the Gammony magnificence of Sir Edward Leigh is the right member of the Tory party to attack Starmer. However, on this one he has a point - Starmer keeps picking at the long list of failings but isn't packaging them together into either a coherent attack or an alternative strategy.
Starmer is a big improvement on Corbyn (but so is my teacup), however he seems to lack the passion needed as LOTO
He has about as much passion as a cardboard cutout of himself would have.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
1975 to 2016 isn't one generation it was two generations.
If you want to divide it nicely then 1973 to 1993 (20 years of EEC membership) could make one generation, while 1993 to 2020 (27 years of EU membership) is another.
You seem to be putting 2014 as the starting point of a generation but that makes no sense. It occured in the last generation, the generation of EU membership that is now over.
We are starting a new generation now. Post Brexit is like Picard, it is The Next Generation.
So at a minimum 20 years ie 2034 at the earliest since the 2014 referendum.
As both myself and LadyG have pointed out to you numerous times there is zero chance of this Tory government allowing indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, if Starmer wins in 2024 and grants an indyref2 before that generation has elapsed after an SNP Holyrood majority in 2021 or as he needs SNP backing to become PM that is up to him, we Tories however have a Westminster majority of 80 and will ban indyref2 correctly for the rest of our term in power.
If you disagree with that so strongly you can go off and vote for Starmer
2034 is only the earliest if for some twisted self-serving reason you define the generation as starting in 2014. Why would you?
Politically post-Brexit is a new era from pre-Brexit. It is a new generation. The generation thing is meaningless nonsense so drop it.
At the 2021 Holyrood elections I will not have a vote and neither will you or Boris. The future of Scotland is, as great Conservative leaders like Thatcher recognised, an issue for the voters of Scotland. Not me or you.
If at the 2021 Hollyrood elections the Scottish voters vote for a new referendum then that is their own choice and I respect that. As do nearly all other Tories here. My personal opinion on the future of the union is immaterial - I respect the Scottish voters, why don't you?
I respect the will of the 55% of Scots who voted No in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
This Tory government will respect that, as the Secretary of State for Scotland correctly said 'the UK government intends to refuse another independence referendum "for a generation".
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
1975 to 2016 isn't one generation it was two generations.
If you want to divide it nicely then 1973 to 1993 (20 years of EEC membership) could make one generation, while 1993 to 2020 (27 years of EU membership) is another.
You seem to be putting 2014 as the starting point of a generation but that makes no sense. It occured in the last generation, the generation of EU membership that is now over.
We are starting a new generation now. Post Brexit is like Picard, it is The Next Generation.
So at a minimum 20 years ie 2034 at the earliest since the 2014 referendum.
As both myself and LadyG have pointed out to you numerous times there is zero chance of this Tory government allowing indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, if Starmer wins in 2024 and grants an indyref2 before that generation has elapsed after an SNP Holyrood majority in 2021 or as he needs SNP backing to become PM that is up to him, we Tories however have a Westminster majority of 80 and will ban indyref2 correctly for the rest of our term in power.
If you disagree with that so strongly you can go off and vote for Starmer
2034 is only the earliest if for some twisted self-serving reason you define the generation as starting in 2014. Why would you?
Politically post-Brexit is a new era from pre-Brexit. It is a new generation. The generation thing is meaningless nonsense so drop it.
At the 2021 Holyrood elections I will not have a vote and neither will you or Boris. The future of Scotland is, as great Conservative leaders like Thatcher recognised, an issue for the voters of Scotland. Not me or you.
If at the 2021 Hollyrood elections the Scottish voters vote for a new referendum then that is their own choice and I respect that. As do nearly all other Tories here. My personal opinion on the future of the union is immaterial - I respect the Scottish voters, why don't you?
I respect the will of the 55% of Scots who voted No in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
This Tory government will respect that, as the Secretary of State for Scotland correctly said 'the UK government intends to refuse another independence referendum "for a generation".
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
Was that the manifesto which had maintaining OA at 0.7% in it?
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
It is unfortunate that David Cameron did not create a Brexit commission stuffed with Leavers to establish the nature of Brexit, but he did not. We voted to leave the European Union. No more, no less.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Yes, the UK constitution is that... parliament is sovereign. The court of appeal reaffirmed that in their ruling on prorogation, a court that could be unmade by a simple act of parliament. Of course parliament is decided by the people with votes cast on paper ballots and counted overnight and the next day, result returned by the returning officers. A much simpler and more efficient system than the US nonsense they are undergoing right now. I'm not sure what we'd do if parliament attempted to repeal the 1911 act or even the previous one to leave itself in perpetuity. You'd have to hope MPs wouldn't vote for such dangerous nonsense. It's an unlikely hypothetical but precisely the sort of thing Trump might have gone for would he have been in charge of a system such as ours.
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
Was that the manifesto which had maintaining OA at 0.7% in it?
And which promoted the rule of law, a rather different Brexit, etc. etc.
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
Was that the manifesto which had maintaining OA at 0.7% in it?
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
It is unfortunate that David Cameron did not create a Brexit commission stuffed with Leavers to establish the nature of Brexit, but he did not. We voted to leave the European Union. No more, no less.
Indeed he didn't. He should have spoken to John Howard before calling the referendum.
We did vote to leave the Referendum and we are now leaving based upon the manifesto of the winners of the last General Election - that not entirely coincidentally happen to match the pledges made during the referendum.
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
The mandate to leave the EEA is from the 2019 election. Not from a referendum held a couple of parliaments prior which didn't mention the EEA.
Not that you can lecture us about mandates. The mandate given is the one now torn up by this government who wants to break it in a limited and specific way.
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
I'm not sure that the Gammony magnificence of Sir Edward Leigh is the right member of the Tory party to attack Starmer. However, on this one he has a point - Starmer keeps picking at the long list of failings but isn't packaging them together into either a coherent attack or an alternative strategy.
Starmer is a big improvement on Corbyn (but so is my teacup), however he seems to lack the passion needed as LOTO
He has about as much passion as a cardboard cutout of himself would have.
Corbyn had passion, but he was also a ****.
Johnson has a passion... primarily for himself.
Passion is over-rated.
Some is needed. when people have trouble telling the difference between "you" and a cardboard cutout of "you"....
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
That generation has lapsed though. 1993 to 2020, a generation that is now in the history books. The 2016 referendum started the end of that generation which expired 31/1/20.
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
Was that the manifesto with strengthening the union in it? How’s that going?
It’s unusual for the clown to stick around to listen to the views of ordinary backbenchers, which is a sign of how worried he is.
Having just had both the proposal and both his past actions and his honesty torn apart by the Chair of the 1922 Committee I wonder if he is now wishing he hadn't.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
1975 to 2016 isn't one generation it was two generations.
If you want to divide it nicely then 1973 to 1993 (20 years of EEC membership) could make one generation, while 1993 to 2020 (27 years of EU membership) is another.
You seem to be putting 2014 as the starting point of a generation but that makes no sense. It occured in the last generation, the generation of EU membership that is now over.
We are starting a new generation now. Post Brexit is like Picard, it is The Next Generation.
So at a minimum 20 years ie 2034 at the earliest since the 2014 referendum.
As both myself and LadyG have pointed out to you numerous times there is zero chance of this Tory government allowing indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, if Starmer wins in 2024 and grants an indyref2 before that generation has elapsed after an SNP Holyrood majority in 2021 or as he needs SNP backing to become PM that is up to him, we Tories however have a Westminster majority of 80 and will ban indyref2 correctly for the rest of our term in power.
If you disagree with that so strongly you can go off and vote for Starmer
2034 is only the earliest if for some twisted self-serving reason you define the generation as starting in 2014. Why would you?
Politically post-Brexit is a new era from pre-Brexit. It is a new generation. The generation thing is meaningless nonsense so drop it.
At the 2021 Holyrood elections I will not have a vote and neither will you or Boris. The future of Scotland is, as great Conservative leaders like Thatcher recognised, an issue for the voters of Scotland. Not me or you.
If at the 2021 Hollyrood elections the Scottish voters vote for a new referendum then that is their own choice and I respect that. As do nearly all other Tories here. My personal opinion on the future of the union is immaterial - I respect the Scottish voters, why don't you?
I respect the will of the 55% of Scots who voted No in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
This Tory government will respect that, as the Secretary of State for Scotland correctly said 'the UK government intends to refuse another independence referendum "for a generation".
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
Was that the manifesto with the promise that debt will be lower at the end of this Parliament?
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
Was that the manifesto with the promise that debt will be lower at the end of this Parliament?
Is fish too expensive for it to grow in the domestic market?
Maybe a tad but we are remarkably unsophisticated when it comes to our taste in fish.
There’s no reason we couldn’t have the marvellous seafood that Spain and France enjoy (most of it is ours anyway) but Brits won’t generally eat fish unless it’s battered and served with chips, and even then it’s just haddock, cod or scampi. Occasionally some prawns or a bit of salmon for the adventurous ones - and that’s usually in a pie or pastry and not fresh. I’ve even heard one or two say fish is a bit “Catholic” (eh?).
It’s a travesty. A better action for the Government would be a British fish campaign backed by celebrity chefs (rather than all this trendy vegan crap) that would be delicious and sustainable, but I see precious sign of such thinking at present. People are intimidated by it, don’t know how to cook it or eat it and are scared it will taste foul or make them ill. All bollocks, of course.
If we want to help British fishermen we all need to eat far more British fish.
It reminds me of the 1970s and the "Buy British Cars" campaign. Support our own industry. Of course, the cars were overpriced, unreliable cr*p.
The problem with the "Eat more British fish" idea is that most people have no idea how to cook anything if it does not come with instructions printed on the side of the box. Most people will not touch a fresh fish even if you give them one.
I think you would find microwave meals are more crap than the wonders of the sea.
I love shellfish. If we get cheaper shellfish post Brexit then on a selfish shellfish level that's good news as far as I'm concerned.
It does not matter what you think. You are not typical. Microwave meals are indeed total cr*p but they are easy to cook (instructions on the box) and are full of the fats, salts and sugars that many people love. It is why we have so many obese people waddling around.
When I was still on Facebook in 2016 someone in the vollage I'm connected with shared something that suggested that leaving the EU would just mean we dropped into the EEA. It was at that point that I deactivated my account as there was clearly no hope. It is like pushing water uphill.
There was a long debate on here with people who should have known better claiming we could just drop into the EEA by rejoining EFTA, regardless of what the EU thought about the manoeuvre.
That may be the only way out of this mess, but it will not be a quick solution and after our behaviour they might refuse us membership. I would if I was them unless another referendum was held in the UK and won on at least a 66% JOIN vote. None of this 50% + 1 vote rubbish.
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
Bore off Philip. This government are fighting a battle with the House of Lords to bin off its own manifesto it was elected on just a year ago. The idea that the word of a politician overrules the word of a referendum is laughable.
The referendum was simple. Should we leave the EU? The EEA is not the EU. Regardless of what politician x said about it that doesn't make those things true. Leaving the EEA *as well as* the EU is a political choice not one mandated by the referendum.
It is a choice mandated by the winning 2019 Tory manifesto which promised:
'We will keep the UK out of the single market, out of any form of customs union, and end the role of the European Court of Justice.
This future relationship will be one that allows us to: Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style points based immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
We will negotiate a trade agreement next year – one that will strengthen our Union –and we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020.'
You make exactly the point I was making. To leave the EEA is a political choice made by the Tory party, not a mandated choice from a referendum two parliaments ago that made no mention of the EEA.
It is a choice mandated by the manifesto which won this Tory government a majority of 80
Was that the manifesto with the promise of a long term solution to the crisis in social care?
Are we sure that all the Labour MPs will abstain? I know it wouldn't make much difference, but I can imagine the Jezutwits ignoring Starmer and properly opposing the evil Tories
We didn't vote to leave the EU to remain bound by EU rules. 🙄
We didn't vote to leave the EU to do anything in particular, we just voted to leave. There were no qualifications or ambitions on the referendum ballot paper; nothing about fish or cars or playing fields; those are inventions of Boris, or Nigel, or the media.
Then why did David Cameron say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did George Osborne say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Nick Clegg say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Jeremy Corbyn say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Michael Gove say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Boris Johnson say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
Then why did Andrea Leadsom say if we voted to leave we would be out of the Single Market?
That's not just Nigel. I couldn't care less about Nigel, nor do I agree with all the above on everything (or even nearly anything for Corbyn) but there was a context to the ballot.
It is unfortunate that David Cameron did not create a Brexit commission stuffed with Leavers to establish the nature of Brexit, but he did not. We voted to leave the European Union. No more, no less.
Indeed he didn't. He should have spoken to John Howard before calling the referendum.
We did vote to leave the Referendum and we are now leaving based upon the manifesto of the winners of the last General Election - that not entirely coincidentally happen to match the pledges made during the referendum.
Brexit was never conceived with a precise destination in mind. Voting Leave was an act of defiance that was supposed to make the rest of the EU see the error of its ways and beg us not to go through with it.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
You do understand that "you Tories" cannot ban something you are powerless to ban? In a democracy if the executive refuse to heed the democratic mandate they become something rather different.
Please please please. Go on another one of your away days. Go knock on doors in Glasgow and sneer in their faces. Please.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
We Tories also have 6 seats in Scotland 14 in Wales, it is we UK Tories who have a majority at Westminster saying No, in the words of Ian Paisley 'No, No, No!!'
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
This Boomer/Gen X/Millennial shite is...well...just an arbitrary media imposed definition of a "Generation". It's clearly rubbish to say that someone born in 1976 has more in common with someone born in 1966 than with someone born in 1982. People born in 1966 will have some (albeit vague) memories of pre-decimalisation currency, they would have been given a shilling to get some sweets with, people born in 1976 and 1982 have none, they would have been given 20p*. No one born in 1966 regularly used a personal computer at secondary school, BBC Micros were first rolled out into schools in 1982, people born in 1976 (indeed those born in 1974 as I can attest) and 1982 certainly did in increasing amounts through their education. Someone born in 1976 could, if they were in the Sixth Form, briefly have been at secondary school with someone born in 1982, not with someone born in 1966. It's all a load of rubbish.
The only possible meaningful definition of a generation is any rolling 20 year period. The arbitrary distinctions the media divide recent generations into have no meaningful basis in reality. That's not to say that there shouldn't be another referendum in Scotland now but it was ill advised 6 years ago to speak of a "generation".
*I'm making allowances for inflation.
Actually people born in 66 would have used personal computers in secondary schools. BBC B's werent the only computers schools used and mine in fact didnt have a single one. They did however have an rml 380 z and several zx80's and zx81's well before 1982
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
You do understand that "you Tories" cannot ban something you are powerless to ban? In a democracy if the executive refuse to heed the democratic mandate they become something rather different.
Please please please. Go on another one of your away days. Go knock on doors in Glasgow and sneer in their faces. Please.
Of course we can, Holyrood is only a creation of Westminster after all, we Tories are in power at Westminster with a majority of 80, Parliament is sovereign and until 2024 we can do what we want and that includes banning indyref2.
Glasgow voted Yes in 2014 even before Brexit anyway so I could not care less what Glasgow thinks
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Yes, the UK constitution is that... parliament is sovereign. The court of appeal reaffirmed that in their ruling on prorogation, a court that could be unmade by a simple act of parliament. Of course parliament is decided by the people with votes cast on paper ballots and counted overnight and the next day, result returned by the returning officers. A much simpler and more efficient system than the US nonsense they are undergoing right now. I'm not sure what we'd do if parliament attempted to repeal the 1911 act or even the previous one to leave itself in perpetuity. You'd have to hope MPs wouldn't vote for such dangerous nonsense. It's an unlikely hypothetical but precisely the sort of thing Trump might have gone for would he have been in charge of a system such as ours.
I note Madison originally noted the superior way the US system deals with the timing issue back in 1788 !
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
There is no UK constitution, as your party in England has been so enthusiastically proving. And Scots Law and English Law long predate any notions of parliamentary sovereignty, as indeed your enthusiasn for the Henriciuan settlement shows.
Every country has a constitution with varying degrees of codification. Whether it is adhered to is another matter (see Trump, D). If HYUFD wanted to be on surer ground legally he should say that the same piece of leglislation, the Scotland Act 1998, that established the current Scottish Parliament (Section 1) also reserved matters relating to the Union to Westminster (Schedule 5 Section 1(b)). A body that owes its legal existence to an Act, and bases its case for independence on freeing itelf from the restrictions of that Act, can't really question the validity or certain bits of it. Logically if Holyrood could circumvent part of the Scotland Act it could just repeal the whole thing without a referendum, something it has not claimed to be able to do as yet.
However, this misses the point entirely. There is nothing whatsoever I can see stopping the Scottish Government organising an advisory referendum - as most referendums (2011 and 2014 being exceptions) are. If that referendum results in a 'Yes' vote the political ramifications of saying that one advisory referendum (2016) must be held sacrosanct, while the results of a subsequent one can be ignored, are just not sustainable.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
We Tories also have 6 seats in Scotland 14 in Wales, it is we UK Tories who have a majority at Westminster saying No, in the words of Ian Paisley 'No, No, No!!'
Even Paisley managed to say 'yes maybe' at some point.
I know you're irrelevant to the whole process but it might be good for your personal growth to find your own Scotch chuckle brother at some point.
We Tories also have 6 seats in Scotland 14 in Wales, it is we UK Tories who have a majority at Westminster saying No, in the words of Ian Paisley 'No, No, No!!'
Even Paisley manage to say 'yes maybe' at some point.
I know you're irrelevant to the whole process but it might be good for your personal growth to find your own Scotch chuckle brother at some point.
Paisley never once backed a border poll, he simply after decades agreed to work with Sinn Fein while he was NI First Minister and in charge
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
There is no UK constitution, as your party in England has been so enthusiastically proving. And Scots Law and English Law long predate any notions of parliamentary sovereignty, as indeed your enthusiasn for the Henriciuan settlement shows.
Every country has a constitution with varying degrees of codification. Whether it is adhered to is another matter (see Trump, D). If HYUFD wanted to be on surer ground legally he should say that the same piece of leglislation, the Scotland Act 1998, that established the current Scottish Parliament (Section 1) also reserved matters relating to the Union to Westminster (Schedule 5 Section 1(b)). A body that owes its legal existence to an Act, and bases its case for independence on freeing itelf from the restrictions of that Act, can't really question the validity or certain bits of it. Logically if Holyrood could circumvent part of the Scotland Act it could just repeal the whole thing without a referendum, something it has not claimed to be able to do as yet.
However, this misses the point entirely. There is nothing whatsoever I can see stopping the Scottish Government organising an advisory referendum - as most referendums (2011 and 2014 being exceptions) are. If that referendum results in a 'Yes' vote the political ramifications of saying that one advisory referendum (2016) must be held sacrosanct, while the results of a subsequent one can be ignored, are just not sustainable.
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
This Boomer/Gen X/Millennial shite is...well...just an arbitrary media imposed definition of a "Generation". It's clearly rubbish to say that someone born in 1976 has more in common with someone born in 1966 than with someone born in 1982. People born in 1966 will have some (albeit vague) memories of pre-decimalisation currency, they would have been given a shilling to get some sweets with, people born in 1976 and 1982 have none, they would have been given 20p*. No one born in 1966 regularly used a personal computer at secondary school, BBC Micros were first rolled out into schools in 1982, people born in 1976 (indeed those born in 1974 as I can attest) and 1982 certainly did in increasing amounts through their education. Someone born in 1976 could, if they were in the Sixth Form, briefly have been at secondary school with someone born in 1982, not with someone born in 1966. It's all a load of rubbish.
The only possible meaningful definition of a generation is any rolling 20 year period. The arbitrary distinctions the media divide recent generations into have no meaningful basis in reality. That's not to say that there shouldn't be another referendum in Scotland now but it was ill advised 6 years ago to speak of a "generation".
*I'm making allowances for inflation.
Actually people born in 66 would have used personal computers in secondary schools. BBC B's werent the only computers schools used and mine in fact didnt have a single one. They did however have an rml 380 z and several zx80's and zx81's well before 1982
I was born in 66. My school did not have a single computer of any kind as far as I am aware. I certainly wasn't offered the opportunity to use one at any stage. Maybe my school was an outlier.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
This Boomer/Gen X/Millennial shite is...well...just an arbitrary media imposed definition of a "Generation". It's clearly rubbish to say that someone born in 1976 has more in common with someone born in 1966 than with someone born in 1982. People born in 1966 will have some (albeit vague) memories of pre-decimalisation currency, they would have been given a shilling to get some sweets with, people born in 1976 and 1982 have none, they would have been given 20p*. No one born in 1966 regularly used a personal computer at secondary school, BBC Micros were first rolled out into schools in 1982, people born in 1976 (indeed those born in 1974 as I can attest) and 1982 certainly did in increasing amounts through their education. Someone born in 1976 could, if they were in the Sixth Form, briefly have been at secondary school with someone born in 1982, not with someone born in 1966. It's all a load of rubbish.
The only possible meaningful definition of a generation is any rolling 20 year period. The arbitrary distinctions the media divide recent generations into have no meaningful basis in reality. That's not to say that there shouldn't be another referendum in Scotland now but it was ill advised 6 years ago to speak of a "generation".
*I'm making allowances for inflation.
Actually people born in 66 would have used personal computers in secondary schools. BBC B's werent the only computers schools used and mine in fact didnt have a single one. They did however have an rml 380 z and several zx80's and zx81's well before 1982
I was born in 66. My school did not have a single computer of any kind as far as I am aware. I certainly wasn't offered the opportunity to use one at any stage. Maybe my school was an outlier.
We can all only go by our schools I was born in early 67 and certainly used computers that weren't new to the school and my school offered computer science at o level
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
This Boomer/Gen X/Millennial shite is...well...just an arbitrary media imposed definition of a "Generation". It's clearly rubbish to say that someone born in 1976 has more in common with someone born in 1966 than with someone born in 1982. People born in 1966 will have some (albeit vague) memories of pre-decimalisation currency, they would have been given a shilling to get some sweets with, people born in 1976 and 1982 have none, they would have been given 20p*. No one born in 1966 regularly used a personal computer at secondary school, BBC Micros were first rolled out into schools in 1982, people born in 1976 (indeed those born in 1974 as I can attest) and 1982 certainly did in increasing amounts through their education. Someone born in 1976 could, if they were in the Sixth Form, briefly have been at secondary school with someone born in 1982, not with someone born in 1966. It's all a load of rubbish.
The only possible meaningful definition of a generation is any rolling 20 year period. The arbitrary distinctions the media divide recent generations into have no meaningful basis in reality. That's not to say that there shouldn't be another referendum in Scotland now but it was ill advised 6 years ago to speak of a "generation".
*I'm making allowances for inflation.
Actually people born in 66 would have used personal computers in secondary schools. BBC B's werent the only computers schools used and mine in fact didnt have a single one. They did however have an rml 380 z and several zx80's and zx81's well before 1982
I was born in 66. My school did not have a single computer of any kind as far as I am aware. I certainly wasn't offered the opportunity to use one at any stage. Maybe my school was an outlier.
We can all only go by our schools I was born in early 67 and certainly used computers that weren't new to the school and my school offered computer science at o level
Fair enough. My school building was very old, and had a very small c conservative outlook at the top. Practical science and technology (Nor drama or art either) were not prioritised in any way. Music and sport yes indeed.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
not me for sure. While I agree with 1,2 and 4 the tories dont support 2 and I wouldn't ever want to be in a party that would have hyufd as a member
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
1. HYUFD is the only gay Tory in the village 2. He doesn't care what people who aren't him think 3. He doesn't care that his views will drive people away from the Tory party. If they don't vote Tory they are beneath contempt and can be ignored.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
On point 4 Hancock and Williamson and several other Cabinet members would not be Tory, rather respecting the Brexit vote is important not how you voted in the referendum
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
not me for sure. While I agree with 1,2 and 4 the tories dont support 2 and I wouldn't ever want to be in a party that would have hyufd as a member
You don`t support lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities? That surprises me, Pagan2.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.
As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.
But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.
Now, the only similar facility is in China. If the UK wants to do something useful with its international aid budget, it could contribute to rebuilding this telescope.
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
1. HYUFD is the only gay Tory in the village 2. He doesn't care what people who aren't him think 3. He doesn't care that his views will drive people away from the Tory party. If they don't vote Tory they are beneath contempt and can be ignored.
I was a Tory member and voted Tory even in 2001 when Philip Thompson was voting Labour and Blair was re elected by a landslide, I know a genuine Tory when I see one
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
On point 4 Hancock and Williamson and several other Cabinet members would not be Tory
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
not me for sure. While I agree with 1,2 and 4 the tories dont support 2 and I wouldn't ever want to be in a party that would have hyufd as a member
You don`t support lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities? That surprises me, Pagan2.
Actually if you read what I said,.... the tories dont support lower taxes, smaller government and individual responsibilities.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
Only HYUFD is a Tory. Everyone else who identifies as a Tory is a traitor of varying descriptions who need to be abused and insulted and then asked if they will vote Tory.
I've seen Labour activists argue on the doorstep with life-long Labour voters for their betrayal of the Labour party as defined by the jumped-up cretin who thinks their view is the only view. I would pay real money to a real charity to go canvassing with HYUFD in Glasgow, to have him knock on their door, tell them he doesn't care what they think and to shut up.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
not me for sure. While I agree with 1,2 and 4 the tories dont support 2 and I wouldn't ever want to be in a party that would have hyufd as a member
You don`t support lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities? That surprises me, Pagan2.
Actually if you read what I said,.... the tories dont support lower taxes, smaller government and individual responsibilities.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
1975 to 2016 isn't one generation it was two generations.
If you want to divide it nicely then 1973 to 1993 (20 years of EEC membership) could make one generation, while 1993 to 2020 (27 years of EU membership) is another.
You seem to be putting 2014 as the starting point of a generation but that makes no sense. It occured in the last generation, the generation of EU membership that is now over.
We are starting a new generation now. Post Brexit is like Picard, it is The Next Generation.
So at a minimum 20 years ie 2034 at the earliest since the 2014 referendum.
As both myself and LadyG have pointed out to you numerous times there is zero chance of this Tory government allowing indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, if Starmer wins in 2024 and grants an indyref2 before that generation has elapsed after an SNP Holyrood majority in 2021 or as he needs SNP backing to become PM that is up to him, we Tories however have a Westminster majority of 80 and will ban indyref2 correctly for the rest of our term in power.
If you disagree with that so strongly you can go off and vote for Starmer
2034 is only the earliest if for some twisted self-serving reason you define the generation as starting in 2014. Why would you?
Politically post-Brexit is a new era from pre-Brexit. It is a new generation. The generation thing is meaningless nonsense so drop it.
At the 2021 Holyrood elections I will not have a vote and neither will you or Boris. The future of Scotland is, as great Conservative leaders like Thatcher recognised, an issue for the voters of Scotland. Not me or you.
If at the 2021 Hollyrood elections the Scottish voters vote for a new referendum then that is their own choice and I respect that. As do nearly all other Tories here. My personal opinion on the future of the union is immaterial - I respect the Scottish voters, why don't you?
I respect the will of the 55% of Scots who voted No in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum.
Especially the 320,000+ over-60 year olds who have died and been replaced with new voters, it seems.
Now, the only similar facility is in China. If the UK wants to do something useful with its international aid budget, it could contribute to rebuilding this telescope.
Hang on. PR belongs to the USA. I know Trump buggered it up, but do they really need our development money?
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
Only HYUFD is a Tory. Everyone else who identifies as a Tory is a traitor of varying descriptions who need to be abused and insulted and then asked if they will vote Tory.
I've seen Labour activists argue on the doorstep with life-long Labour voters for their betrayal of the Labour party as defined by the jumped-up cretin who thinks their view is the only view. I would pay real money to a real charity to go canvassing with HYUFD in Glasgow, to have him knock on their door, tell them he doesn't care what they think and to shut up.
Given Glasgow has not had a Tory MP since 1979 and we have had 28 years of Tory government since and it voted Yes to independence even in 2014 when Scotland overall voted No, politically I am little bothered what Glasgow thinks and would of course never canvass there
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
On point 4 Hancock and Williamson and several other Cabinet members would not be Tory, rather respecting the Brexit vote is important not how you voted in the referendum
Not to be a proper Tory though. Not a real one. Just one for show.
As for respecting the result, should Lab win the next GE you would respect the result, but it wouldn't make you a Labour supporter would it?
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.
As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.
But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.
I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
Pro tip, if you want people to believe that you don't care what X thinks, don't keep saying I don't care what X thinks.
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
1. HYUFD is the only gay Tory in the village 2. He doesn't care what people who aren't him think 3. He doesn't care that his views will drive people away from the Tory party. If they don't vote Tory they are beneath contempt and can be ignored.
I was a Tory member and voted Tory even in 2001 when Philip Thompson was voting Labour and Blair was re elected by a landslide, I know a genuine Tory when I see one
And yet you never stop for one second and wonder why you lost by a landslide in 2001. Funny that.
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.
Westminster is sovereign, without Westminster support for a referendum there can be no indyref2 under the Scotland Act, indeed legally Westminster could suspend or scrap Holyrood altogether if it had no alternative as Madrid did when it suspended the Catalan Parliament although I doubt it would get that far
PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
Only HYUFD is a Tory. Everyone else who identifies as a Tory is a traitor of varying descriptions who need to be abused and insulted and then asked if they will vote Tory.
I've seen Labour activists argue on the doorstep with life-long Labour voters for their betrayal of the Labour party as defined by the jumped-up cretin who thinks their view is the only view. I would pay real money to a real charity to go canvassing with HYUFD in Glasgow, to have him knock on their door, tell them he doesn't care what they think and to shut up.
I'm not sure there's room in the tank for both of you.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
On point 4 Hancock and Williamson and several other Cabinet members would not be Tory
Sling 'em out.
...but, but, didn't HYUFD vote Remain? Sling him out!
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.
Which is why HYUFD's rantings are so desperate and so sad. The Tories cannot block a referendum. The Scottish government can hold one on the same basis as the EU referendum - advisory and mandated by their manifesto. People then vote for independence.
Will Westminster say that an advisory referendum isn't politically binding when they said the opposite about the EU referendum? Will they say that the opinions of the Scottish people do not matter?
In a democracy you either accept the democratic mandate or you are not democratic.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
This Boomer/Gen X/Millennial shite is...well...just an arbitrary media imposed definition of a "Generation". It's clearly rubbish to say that someone born in 1976 has more in common with someone born in 1966 than with someone born in 1982. People born in 1966 will have some (albeit vague) memories of pre-decimalisation currency, they would have been given a shilling to get some sweets with, people born in 1976 and 1982 have none, they would have been given 20p*. No one born in 1966 regularly used a personal computer at secondary school, BBC Micros were first rolled out into schools in 1982, people born in 1976 (indeed those born in 1974 as I can attest) and 1982 certainly did in increasing amounts through their education. Someone born in 1976 could, if they were in the Sixth Form, briefly have been at secondary school with someone born in 1982, not with someone born in 1966. It's all a load of rubbish.
The only possible meaningful definition of a generation is any rolling 20 year period. The arbitrary distinctions the media divide recent generations into have no meaningful basis in reality. That's not to say that there shouldn't be another referendum in Scotland now but it was ill advised 6 years ago to speak of a "generation".
*I'm making allowances for inflation.
Actually people born in 66 would have used personal computers in secondary schools. BBC B's werent the only computers schools used and mine in fact didnt have a single one. They did however have an rml 380 z and several zx80's and zx81's well before 1982
I was born in 66. My school did not have a single computer of any kind as far as I am aware. I certainly wasn't offered the opportunity to use one at any stage. Maybe my school was an outlier.
I'm also of '66 vintage, and attended a grammar school. The only computer there was an RM 380Z that was jealously guarded by the closed-shop school computer society. Mere mortals like me didn't get a look in - we had to be content playing with our ZX81s, Spectrums and (in my case) a Jupiter Ace at home. As for computer science O-level: I'm surprised that such a thing existed then. Computing certainly wasn't anywhere near the curriculum at my school.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less
Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system. 2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities. 3. Supports the Union. 4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
Only HYUFD is a Tory. Everyone else who identifies as a Tory is a traitor of varying descriptions who need to be abused and insulted and then asked if they will vote Tory.
I've seen Labour activists argue on the doorstep with life-long Labour voters for their betrayal of the Labour party as defined by the jumped-up cretin who thinks their view is the only view. I would pay real money to a real charity to go canvassing with HYUFD in Glasgow, to have him knock on their door, tell them he doesn't care what they think and to shut up.
The charity of your choice should probably be the Strathclyde Air Ambulance...
PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.
As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.
But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.
I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour
2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES. 2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?
PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.
Westminster is sovereign, without Westminster support for a referendum there can be no indyref2 under the Scotland Act, indeed legally Westminster could suspend or scrap Holyrood altogether if it had no alternative as Madrid did when it suspended the Catalan Parliament although I doubt it would get that far
Here's the section of the Scotland Act under which Holyrood has general legislative competence. Please let me know which of the subsections in section 29(2) an advisory referendum would breach -
29Legislative competence. (1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament. (2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply— (a) it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland, (b) it relates to reserved matters, (c) it is in breach of the restrictions in Schedule 4, (d) it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights or with [EU] law, (e) it would remove the Lord Advocate from his position as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland.
PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.
Mr. Stocky, sadly there was about a 15 minute window of loveliness, at around half seven this morning.
Hamilton has COVID-19 and is missing the race. Bottas was 5.5 and Verstappen 6. Now down to circa 2.7 (lay) on Betfair.
I also had tiny sums, each way (just top 2, alas) on Perez and Albon in case woe befalls the other pair. I did not, however, back Russell, which may very well have been the optimal strategy. But I shan't grumble of a lucky break.
Now, the only similar facility is in China. If the UK wants to do something useful with its international aid budget, it could contribute to rebuilding this telescope.
Foreign aid to the United States? That's certainly an original idea.
Though I admit it would probably be more useful than aid to Ethiopian girl bands.
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.
Westminster is sovereign, without Westminster support for a referendum there can be no indyref2 under the Scotland Act, indeed legally Westminster could suspend or scrap Holyrood altogether if it had no alternative as Madrid did when it suspended the Catalan Parliament although I doubt it would get that far
Here's the section of the Scotland Act under which Holyrood has general legislative competence. Please let me know which of the subsections in section 29(2) an advisory referendum would breach -
29Legislative competence. (1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament. (2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply— (a) it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland, (b) it relates to reserved matters, (c) it is in breach of the restrictions in Schedule 4, (d) it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights or with [EU] law, (e) it would remove the Lord Advocate from his position as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland.
29(b) potentially.
It relates to reserved matters.
But a democrat should respect Scottish democracy. I am a democrat first and foremost.
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.
Westminster is sovereign, without Westminster support for a referendum there can be no indyref2 under the Scotland Act, indeed legally Westminster could suspend or scrap Holyrood altogether if it had no alternative as Madrid did when it suspended the Catalan Parliament although I doubt it would get that far
Here's the section of the Scotland Act under which Holyrood has general legislative competence. Please let me know which of the subsections in section 29(2) an advisory referendum would breach -
29Legislative competence. (1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament. (2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply— (a) it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland, (b) it relates to reserved matters, (c) it is in breach of the restrictions in Schedule 4, (d) it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights or with [EU] law, (e) it would remove the Lord Advocate from his position as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland.
An independence vote is a reserved matter to Westminster but regardless Holyrood's powers only come from Westminster and the Scotland Act can be amended or even repealed as Westminster wishes legally
2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.
Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.
It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation
Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.
I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".
2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.
A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'
Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.
That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.
The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.
Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote
Is it in the law books? No?
And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.
Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!
Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?
I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”
In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.
Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?
It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification
Me too.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this
I am a Conservative. I am a compatriot. I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.
As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.
But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.
I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour
2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES. 2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?
A pro Scottish independence and anti Brexit voter in Epping will I assure you never be voting Tory anyway
Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.
Which is why HYUFD's rantings are so desperate and so sad. The Tories cannot block a referendum. The Scottish government can hold one on the same basis as the EU referendum - advisory and mandated by their manifesto. People then vote for independence.
Will Westminster say that an advisory referendum isn't politically binding when they said the opposite about the EU referendum? Will they say that the opinions of the Scottish people do not matter?
In a democracy you either accept the democratic mandate or you are not democratic.
Westminster is sovereign, we only had a referendum on the EU in 2016 as the party with a majority at Westminster allowed one
PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.
In all fairness to HYUFD, he is manfully defending his position, even though it is somewhat reminiscent of a Japanese soldier in the Singapore jungle, circa 1970.
Comments
Of course parliament is decided by the people with votes cast on paper ballots and counted overnight and the next day, result returned by the returning officers. A much simpler and more efficient system than the US nonsense they are undergoing right now.
I'm not sure what we'd do if parliament attempted to repeal the 1911 act or even the previous one to leave itself in perpetuity. You'd have to hope MPs wouldn't vote for such dangerous nonsense. It's an unlikely hypothetical but precisely the sort of thing Trump might have gone for would he have been in charge of a system such as ours.
Johnson has a passion... primarily for himself.
Passion is over-rated.
We're in a new post-Brexit era now. A new generation.
Says the government has made no persuasive case for the measures as proposed, so he will oppose them.
We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1331650556566368258?s=20
We did vote to leave the Referendum and we are now leaving based upon the manifesto of the winners of the last General Election - that not entirely coincidentally happen to match the pledges made during the referendum.
Not that you can lecture us about mandates. The mandate given is the one now torn up by this government who wants to break it in a limited and specific way.
Please please please. Go on another one of your away days. Go knock on doors in Glasgow and sneer in their faces. Please.
Glasgow voted Yes in 2014 even before Brexit anyway so I could not care less what Glasgow thinks
However, this misses the point entirely. There is nothing whatsoever I can see stopping the Scottish Government organising an advisory referendum - as most referendums (2011 and 2014 being exceptions) are. If that referendum results in a 'Yes' vote the political ramifications of saying that one advisory referendum (2016) must be held sacrosanct, while the results of a subsequent one can be ignored, are just not sustainable.
There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.
HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.
I know you're irrelevant to the whole process but it might be good for your personal growth to find your own Scotch chuckle brother at some point.
Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority
I certainly wasn't offered the opportunity to use one at any stage.
Maybe my school was an outlier.
I am a compatriot.
I am a voter.
That should be three reasons why you can care.
But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.
You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon
Music and sport yes indeed.
1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system.
2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities.
3. Supports the Union.
4. Voted for Brexit.
So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1333773762374807553
Then call off election. It won’t be needed.
I did not anticipate these odds. And now feel like a pineapple because his Ladbrokes odds this morning must been hundreds if not thousands to one.
gayTory in the village2. He doesn't care what people who aren't him think
3. He doesn't care that his views will drive people away from the Tory party. If they don't vote Tory they are beneath contempt and can be ignored.
Edit: I think you meant 3.
As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.
But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.
Now, the only similar facility is in China. If the UK wants to do something useful with its international aid budget, it could contribute to rebuilding this telescope.
I've seen Labour activists argue on the doorstep with life-long Labour voters for their betrayal of the Labour party as defined by the jumped-up cretin who thinks their view is the only view. I would pay real money to a real charity to go canvassing with HYUFD in Glasgow, to have him knock on their door, tell them he doesn't care what they think and to shut up.
I know Trump buggered it up, but do they really need our development money?
This is very good (sound on)
https://twitter.com/jennerific713/status/1333773969749667842
As for respecting the result, should Lab win the next GE you would respect the result, but it wouldn't make you a Labour supporter would it?
OR WOULD IT??
https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-lib-dems-will-oppose-holding-indyref2-at-any-point?top
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-54325592
#BlueCorbyn
Why couldn't Starmer sum it up as simply as that?
Will Westminster say that an advisory referendum isn't politically binding when they said the opposite about the EU referendum? Will they say that the opinions of the Scottish people do not matter?
In a democracy you either accept the democratic mandate or you are not democratic.
2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?
29Legislative competence.
(1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.
(2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply—
(a) it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland,
(b) it relates to reserved matters,
(c) it is in breach of the restrictions in Schedule 4,
(d) it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights or with [EU] law,
(e) it would remove the Lord Advocate from his position as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland.
https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1333717926843740160?s=20
Hamilton has COVID-19 and is missing the race. Bottas was 5.5 and Verstappen 6. Now down to circa 2.7 (lay) on Betfair.
I also had tiny sums, each way (just top 2, alas) on Perez and Albon in case woe befalls the other pair. I did not, however, back Russell, which may very well have been the optimal strategy. But I shan't grumble of a lucky break.
Though I admit it would probably be more useful than aid to Ethiopian girl bands.
It relates to reserved matters.
But a democrat should respect Scottish democracy. I am a democrat first and foremost.