Setting An Example – politicalbetting.com

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

Me too.

There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.

HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.

You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this

I am a Conservative.
I am a compatriot.
I am a voter.

That should be three reasons why you can care.

But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.

You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.

You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon

The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.

As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.

But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.

I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-lib-dems-will-oppose-holding-indyref2-at-any-point?top

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-54325592

2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES.
2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?

A pro Scottish independence and anti Brexit voter in Epping will I assure you never be voting Tory anyway

A significant proportion of English Tory voters back English independence.

An even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

felix said:

PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.

But that's what most posters on the site want. An echo chamber. They don;t want any alternative position. They just want an endless stream of comments affirming their worldview.

Orange man bad. Sage committee good. Brexit Voters stupid. Vaccines macht frei. Biden saves all.

Endlessly.

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.

Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority

Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.

Westminster is sovereign, without Westminster support for a referendum there can be no indyref2 under the Scotland Act, indeed legally Westminster could suspend or scrap Holyrood altogether if it had no alternative as Madrid did when it suspended the Catalan Parliament although I doubt it would get that far

Here's the section of the Scotland Act under which Holyrood has general legislative competence. Please let me know which of the subsections in section 29(2) an advisory referendum would breach -

29Legislative competence.
(1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.
(2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply—
(a) it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland,
(b) it relates to reserved matters,
(c) it is in breach of the restrictions in Schedule 4,
(d) it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights or with [EU] law,
(e) it would remove the Lord Advocate from his position as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland.

An independence vote is a reserved matter to Westminster but regardless Holyrood's powers only come from Westminster and the Scotland Act can be amended or even repealed as Westminster wishes legally

An independence vote is a reserved matter to Westminster
No it's not. The union between England and Scotland is a reserved matter, but a referendum on the same, an advisory referendum, is not.

but regardless Holyrood's powers only come from Westminster and the Scotland Act can be amended or even repealed as Westminster wishes legally
Even that is debatable. However, assuming you are correct, do you really want the 1918 General Election election all over again?

contrarian said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I'm sure this will go down well in the shires with the 'get rid of sponging Jocks' Tories

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1333717926843740160?s=20

The number of people talking about 'sponging Jocks' in the shires is probably close to zero.

The policy will do exactly what it was designed to do - encourage those in the Shires to ponder why their own govt is not doing the same.

In fact, I see a policy to do something substantially the same for English and Welsh NHS workers.

What would that cost, I wonder?

Morris_Dancer said:

F1: Russell is 8.2 to win on Betfair.

I did not anticipate these odds. And now feel like a pineapple because his Ladbrokes odds this morning must been hundreds if not thousands to one.

I’d lay that, and hope that Mercedes go with Vandoorne. Even if they do go with GR, he’s unlikely to beat both Bottas and Verstappen.

contrarian said:

felix said:

PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.

But that's what most posters on the site want. An echo chamber. They don;t want any alternative position. They just want an endless stream of comments affirming their worldview.

Orange man bad. Sage committee good. Brexit Voters stupid. Vaccines macht frei. Biden saves all.

Endlessly.

Does that mean your "contrarian" views would include: Trump is good. Vaccines = Nazis. ?
Great to have some intelligent alternative viewpoints on here.

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.

Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority

Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.

Westminster is sovereign, without Westminster support for a referendum there can be no indyref2 under the Scotland Act, indeed legally Westminster could suspend or scrap Holyrood altogether if it had no alternative as Madrid did when it suspended the Catalan Parliament although I doubt it would get that far

Here's the section of the Scotland Act under which Holyrood has general legislative competence. Please let me know which of the subsections in section 29(2) an advisory referendum would breach -

29Legislative competence.
(1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.
(2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply—
(a) it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland,
(b) it relates to reserved matters,
(c) it is in breach of the restrictions in Schedule 4,
(d) it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights or with [EU] law,
(e) it would remove the Lord Advocate from his position as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland.

An independence vote is a reserved matter to Westminster but regardless Holyrood's powers only come from Westminster and the Scotland Act can be amended or even repealed as Westminster wishes legally

An independence vote is a reserved matter to Westminster
No it's not. The union between England and Scotland is a reserved matter, but a referendum on the same, an advisory referendum, is not.

but regardless Holyrood's powers only come from Westminster and the Scotland Act can be amended or even repealed as Westminster wishes legally
Even that is debatable. However, assuming you are correct, do you really want the 1918 General Election election all over again?

No it is.

However regardless Holyrood could be suspended tomorrow exactly as Madrid suspended the Catalan Parliament by Westminster if it called an illegal independence referendum as Westminster is sovereign under our constitution, the next general election is not until 2024, if Starmer wins and decides to appease the nationalists then and call a referendum that is up to him.

There was a 2 year war between the British Military and the IRA from 1919 to 2021 in the Irish War of Independence before Lloyd George agreed to partition Ireland, even then he did not make the whole island independent

TOPPING said:

contrarian said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I'm sure this will go down well in the shires with the 'get rid of sponging Jocks' Tories

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1333717926843740160?s=20

The number of people talking about 'sponging Jocks' in the shires is probably close to zero.

The policy will do exactly what it was designed to do - encourage those in the Shires to ponder why their own govt is not doing the same.

In fact, I see a policy to do something substantially the same for English and Welsh NHS workers.

What would that cost, I wonder?

Reading the posts below Laurence Fox's 'f8ck the NHS, actually' article in the Mail, I would venture to suggest opinion on the NHS has soured considerably.

Radio talk shows are now chock full of stories of people with serious conditions for whom treatment has effectively ceased to exist.

If the NHS was overwhelmed, what would the difference be? many are not getting treatment anyway.

Whisper it, but I reckon people are prepared to listen to proposals for a France/Germany type system.

Theuniondivvie said:

I'm sure this will go down well in the shires with the 'get rid of sponging Jocks' Tories

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1333717926843740160?s=20

I hate to break this to you but discussion about "sponging Jocks" is not something that generally happens in the shires at all. Even the use of the term "Jock" sounds a bit 1970s Beano/Dandy naff - although it can occasionally come up in the heat of rugby or football matches I concede. Scotland, if discussed at all, tends to come up in a variety of neutral contexts - just like most other places from Penrith to Patagonia. We don't look down or hate you as much as your opression fever dreams and compulsory othering of the English would like.

kamski said:

contrarian said:

felix said:

PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.

But that's what most posters on the site want. An echo chamber. They don;t want any alternative position. They just want an endless stream of comments affirming their worldview.

Orange man bad. Sage committee good. Brexit Voters stupid. Vaccines macht frei. Biden saves all.

Endlessly.

Does that mean your "contrarian" views would include: Trump is good. Vaccines = Nazis. ?
Great to have some intelligent alternative viewpoints on here.

You are such a paid up member of this club you do not even realise that your comment only serves to prove my point

Mr. Sandpit, unfortunately the lay is about 16, or was last I checked.

My lamentation was that this morning he would've had odds of hundreds or thousands to one.

Mr. Seal, I have fond memories of The Dandy.

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

Me too.

There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.

HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.

You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this

I am a Conservative.
I am a compatriot.
I am a voter.

That should be three reasons why you can care.

But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.

You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.

You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon

The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.

As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.

But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.

I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-lib-dems-will-oppose-holding-indyref2-at-any-point?top

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-54325592

2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES.
2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?

A pro Scottish independence and anti Brexit voter in Epping will I assure you never be voting Tory anyway

A significant proportion of English Tory voters back English independence.

An even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

No, 48% of English Tory voters would be upset if Scotland left, only 20% pleased.

A majority also believe the 2014 referendum result must be respected, unlike you
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

Your link doesn't as far as I can see say a majority believes that the 2014 result must be respected, but even if it did it would be irrelevant. However actually your link matches exactly what I said, not you.

A significant proportion (1/5th of Tories is significant) back it and an even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

Overall for the English only 46% think Scotland should remain in the UK, which is than the 47% which either think that they have no opinion it is for the people of Scotland to decide, or that Scotland should go independent.

According to that link 49% of Tories either would be pleased or not be bothered if Scotland goes independent, those upset are outnumbered at only 48%.

So you are in a minority. By your own link.

No far more English Tories are opposed to Scottish independence than support it but anyway we have a UK Tory government I must remind you not an English Tory government and in 2014 95% of Scottish Tories voted against independence

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

Me too.

There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.

HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.

You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this

I am a Conservative.
I am a compatriot.
I am a voter.

That should be three reasons why you can care.

But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.

You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.

You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon

The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.

As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.

But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.

I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-lib-dems-will-oppose-holding-indyref2-at-any-point?top

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-54325592

2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES.
2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?

A pro Scottish independence and anti Brexit voter in Epping will I assure you never be voting Tory anyway

A significant proportion of English Tory voters back English independence.

An even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

No, 48% of English Tory voters would be upset if Scotland left, only 20% pleased.

A majority also believe the 2014 referendum result must be respected, unlike you
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

Your link doesn't as far as I can see say a majority believes that the 2014 result must be respected, but even if it did it would be irrelevant. However actually your link matches exactly what I said, not you.

A significant proportion (1/5th of Tories is significant) back it and an even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

Overall for the English only 46% think Scotland should remain in the UK, which is than the 47% which either think that they have no opinion it is for the people of Scotland to decide, or that Scotland should go independent.

According to that link 49% of Tories either would be pleased or not be bothered if Scotland goes independent, those upset are outnumbered at only 48%.

So you are in a minority. By your own link.

No far more English Tories are opposed to Scottish independence than support it but anyway we have a UK Tory government I must remind you not an English Tory government and in 2014 95% of Scottish Tories voted against independence

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf

The English Tories who respect Scotland's right to decide are with the English Tories who want Scotland to go independent on this issue. So you are in the minority, 49% beats 48%.

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

I agree. I support the right to protest but I find it absolutely crazy that week after week people come to be arrested in Central London for protesting restrictions that would be economic and political suicide to keep in place a second longer than necessary.

To believe that this is a sham and is creeping authoritarianism by the back door while totally ignoring the immense damage the government is causing itself by having these restrictions requires a lot of delusion in one's own mind.

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Wow, that's so original. You're the first person on the internet to have ever drawn a fallacious analogy between an idea and the Nazis. You win the internet.

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

Me too.

There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.

HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.

You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this

I am a Conservative.
I am a compatriot.
I am a voter.

That should be three reasons why you can care.

But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.

You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.

You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon

The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.

As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.

But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.

I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-lib-dems-will-oppose-holding-indyref2-at-any-point?top

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-54325592

2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES.
2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?

A pro Scottish independence and anti Brexit voter in Epping will I assure you never be voting Tory anyway

A significant proportion of English Tory voters back English independence.

An even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

No, 48% of English Tory voters would be upset if Scotland left, only 20% pleased.

A majority also believe the 2014 referendum result must be respected, unlike you
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

Your link doesn't as far as I can see say a majority believes that the 2014 result must be respected, but even if it did it would be irrelevant. However actually your link matches exactly what I said, not you.

A significant proportion (1/5th of Tories is significant) back it and an even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

Overall for the English only 46% think Scotland should remain in the UK, which is than the 47% which either think that they have no opinion it is for the people of Scotland to decide, or that Scotland should go independent.

According to that link 49% of Tories either would be pleased or not be bothered if Scotland goes independent, those upset are outnumbered at only 48%.

So you are in a minority. By your own link.

No far more English Tories are opposed to Scottish independence than support it but anyway we have a UK Tory government I must remind you not an English Tory government and in 2014 95% of Scottish Tories voted against independence

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf

The English Tories who respect Scotland's right to decide are with the English Tories who want Scotland to go independent on this issue. So you are in the minority, 49% beats 48%.

They don't respect their decision, as long as they get Brexit the remainder don't care if Boris bans indyref2 for ever which is what most Scottish Tories want

[Citation Needed]

The YouGov poll linked said that 20% want Scotland to go independent and 29% think it is a matter for the Scots. That's 49%

You are in a minority of 48%. Not for the first time I might add.

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

Of course they are sustainable, see Madrid which banned an illegal referendum on independence in Catalonia in 2017 without even one referendum as the Scots are lucky to have had.

Do not think we Tories are not afraid to follow suit and ban an illegal referendum in Scotland without Westminster authority

Can you point me to the legal basis of your assertion that an advisory referendum would be illegal without Westminster consent? As I say, there is a strong argument that the Scotland Act makes a binding referendum unlawful, or at least one that couldn't be implemented without Westminster's agreement, but it says nothing about an advisory referendum, and the scheme of the Scotland Act is that Holyrood may legislate on any matter that is not expressly reserved.

Westminster is sovereign, without Westminster support for a referendum there can be no indyref2 under the Scotland Act, indeed legally Westminster could suspend or scrap Holyrood altogether if it had no alternative as Madrid did when it suspended the Catalan Parliament although I doubt it would get that far

Here's the section of the Scotland Act under which Holyrood has general legislative competence. Please let me know which of the subsections in section 29(2) an advisory referendum would breach -

29Legislative competence.
(1) An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.
(2) A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply—
(a) it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland,
(b) it relates to reserved matters,
(c) it is in breach of the restrictions in Schedule 4,
(d) it is incompatible with any of the Convention rights or with [EU] law,
(e) it would remove the Lord Advocate from his position as head of the systems of criminal prosecution and investigation of deaths in Scotland.

An independence vote is a reserved matter to Westminster but regardless Holyrood's powers only come from Westminster and the Scotland Act can be amended or even repealed as Westminster wishes legally

An independence vote is a reserved matter to Westminster
No it's not. The union between England and Scotland is a reserved matter, but a referendum on the same, an advisory referendum, is not.

but regardless Holyrood's powers only come from Westminster and the Scotland Act can be amended or even repealed as Westminster wishes legally
Even that is debatable. However, assuming you are correct, do you really want the 1918 General Election election all over again?

No it is.

However regardless Holyrood could be suspended tomorrow exactly as Madrid suspended the Catalan Parliament by Westminster if it called an illegal independence referendum as Westminster is sovereign under our constitution, the next general election is not until 2024, if Starmer wins and decides to appease the nationalists then and call a referendum that is up to him.

There was a 2 year war between the British Military and the IRA from 1919 to 2021 in the Irish War of Independence before Lloyd George agreed to partition Ireland, even then he did not make the whole island independent

Ireland was actually partitioned de jure in 1920.

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Life is immeasurably better after mass vaccinations, or do you disagree?

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

Quebec had referendums 15 years apart.

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Some people just can’t contemplate that serious adjustments to life are required for things like war and pandemic.

As you say, libertarians should be over the moon that we’ll all get vaccinated soon, and a year of authoritarian restrictions on normal life will come to an end.

I still have issues with the “L-word” though, the restrictions in place are well short of that.

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

Me too.

There are many Conservative unionists on this site I respect like @DavidL in Scotland, @Casino_Royale in England and @Big_G_NorthWales in Wales to name just one from each nation of GB who would be very upset if Scotland voted to leave - but unless I'm mistaken they all respect Scotland's right to self-determination and don't cheer on Paisley style "No! No! No!" subjugation of Scotland.

HYUFD is a disgrace and an embarrassment to Conservativism. I respect Scotland and will respect however Scotland votes - it is their choice not mine or his.

You are not even a Conservative nor a Unionist, so I could not care less what you think on this

I am a Conservative.
I am a compatriot.
I am a voter.

That should be three reasons why you can care.

But for the future of Scotland I care more about how the Scottish vote than you.

You are a Libertarian, you are not, never have been and never will be a Conservative.

You also are not a Unionist and you refuse to respect the once in a generation 2014 vote of Scots to stay in the UK, just like Sturgeon

The Conservative Party has long been a home for libertarians you silly blue Corbyn extremist. Your "why don't you fuck off and join the Liberals" nonsense is no better than the red Corbynites you mirror.

As for Scotland every Parliament gets to have its own policies and no Parliament is bound by its predecessors. If 2021 Holyrood winner has a manifesto to hold a new referendum that is the will of the Scottish voters and overrides whatever prior pledges said in prior Parliaments.

But even then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider post-Brexit 2020s to be the same generation as pre-Brexit 2014 other than it suits your spin. It is a nonsense, we're in a new post-Brexit era. We are in a new post-Brexit generation now, its time to move on.

I said why don't you go back to voting Labour as you did in 2001 if you are so desperate to suck up to Sturgeon, the Liberals also have correctly said there should be no indyref2 even with an SNP majority as we Tories have and unlike Starmer Labour

https://prod.news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-lib-dems-will-oppose-holding-indyref2-at-any-point?top

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-54325592

2020: WHY WON'T ALL YOU TRAITORS FUCK OFF AND JOIN OTHER PARTIES.
2024: [knock knock] Good afternoon my name is Councillor Burrows your local councillor. Can I count on your vote for the Conservative Party in the general election?

A pro Scottish independence and anti Brexit voter in Epping will I assure you never be voting Tory anyway

A significant proportion of English Tory voters back English independence.

An even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

No, 48% of English Tory voters would be upset if Scotland left, only 20% pleased.

A majority also believe the 2014 referendum result must be respected, unlike you
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

Your link doesn't as far as I can see say a majority believes that the 2014 result must be respected, but even if it did it would be irrelevant. However actually your link matches exactly what I said, not you.

A significant proportion (1/5th of Tories is significant) back it and an even greater proportion respect the right of Scottish self-determination.

Overall for the English only 46% think Scotland should remain in the UK, which is than the 47% which either think that they have no opinion it is for the people of Scotland to decide, or that Scotland should go independent.

According to that link 49% of Tories either would be pleased or not be bothered if Scotland goes independent, those upset are outnumbered at only 48%.

So you are in a minority. By your own link.

No far more English Tories are opposed to Scottish independence than support it but anyway we have a UK Tory government I must remind you not an English Tory government and in 2014 95% of Scottish Tories voted against independence

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Lord-Ashcroft-Polls-Referendum-day-poll-summary-1409191.pdf

The English Tories who respect Scotland's right to decide are with the English Tories who want Scotland to go independent on this issue. So you are in the minority, 49% beats 48%.

They don't respect their decision, as long as they get Brexit the remainder don't care if Boris bans indyref2 for ever which is what most Scottish Tories want

[Citation Needed]

The YouGov poll linked said that 20% want Scotland to go independent and 29% think it is a matter for the Scots. That's 49%

You are in a minority of 48%. Not for the first time I might add.

A plurality actively oppose independence the rest mainly do not care either way, Scottish Tories overwhelmingly however believe indyref2 should be banned, as long as English Tories get Brexit they are not that bothered and there is no way Boris will risk being the worst PM since Lord North in the history books by losing Scotland as he lost America

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

It will be stop indyref2 which a Unionist majority at Holyrood would make easier but Westminster would refuse indyref2 regardless

Theuniondivvie said:

DougSeal said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I'm sure this will go down well in the shires with the 'get rid of sponging Jocks' Tories

https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1333717926843740160?s=20

I hate to break this to you but discussion about "sponging Jocks" is not something that generally happens in the shires at all. Even the use of the term "Jock" sounds a bit 1970s Beano/Dandy naff - although it can occasionally come up in the heat of rugby or football matches I concede. Scotland, if discussed at all, tends to come up in a variety of neutral contexts - just like most other places from Penrith to Patagonia. We don't look down or hate you as much as your opression fever dreams and compulsory othering of the English would like.

I thought David Aaranovich had kicked the arse out of the term 'othering' in 2014, but kudos for the recycling if not originality.

Equally kudos to you for your constant digging up and recycling the widely discredited concept of "civic nationalism" as some benign alternative to the evil "ethnic nationalism", which was comprehensively debunked as far back as the mid-nineties.

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

Im in favour of vaccination myself but I dont think anyone should be forced to take one.

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

It will be stop indyref2 which a Unionist majority at Holyrood would make easier but Westminster would refuse indyref2 regardless

So an SNP or SNP/Green majority would make it harder for Johnson to tell Sturgeon to sod off?

Clinging on...

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1333777137472581633

RH1992 said:

contrarian said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

Yes. The quickest way to end the lockdown. And ensure there won't be the threat of another, is, of course, get everyone vaccinated ASAP.
This simple fact is too difficult for some.

What's difficult to understand is that the vaccines are now with us and yet the lockdowns are set to last for another six months. At least. And then may be re-imposed in the autumn of 2021.

The light at the end of the tunnel only ever gets further away, in real terms.

I don't see how. If anything the light at the tunnel is nearer now than ever. Six months ago there was talk that a vaccine might never be able to end this fully as it may only be as effective as a flu vaccine. Now we have a vaccine days away from roll out that is far more effective than any flu vaccine and more in the pipeline. That's definite movement in the right direction.

Quite. To wilfully ignore that is crackers. Contrarian is so enmeshed in his magic fantasy land that even this sack of ferrets in a bag looks like an “echo chamber”.

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

It will be stop indyref2 which a Unionist majority at Holyrood would make easier but Westminster would refuse indyref2 regardless

So an SNP or SNP/Green majority would make it harder for Johnson to tell Sturgeon to sod off?

It would (though another SNP minority administration backed by the Greens rather than an SNP majority less so) but he would still tell her to sod off anyway

The term 'anti-vaxxer' seems nearly as embarrassingly asinine as the term 'conspiracy theorist'. There may be some who believe that all vaccines are inherently wicked (a very strange view) but most have suspicions, justified or otherwise, about particular vaccines. Just as people believe in particular conspiracies and not others.

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

It will be stop indyref2 which a Unionist majority at Holyrood would make easier but Westminster would refuse indyref2 regardless

So an SNP or SNP/Green majority would make it harder for Johnson to tell Sturgeon to sod off?

It would but he would still tell her to sod off anyway

He's just the sort of consistent, principled politician who would stick to his guns regardless. BJ would rather die in a ditch than give in to Nippy (and the majority of Scottish voters).

FeersumEnjineeya said:

TOPPING said:

felix said:

PB at its most tedious - endless repetitious diatribes about Brexit and now silly willy waving as all and sundry pile in on HYUFD in equally boring repetitive criticisms. Must be a slow news day.

Fuck meta-comments are boring.

Not to mention the meta-meta-comments :-)

Personally, I never met a meta-meta-comment I didn't like...

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

It will be stop indyref2 which a Unionist majority at Holyrood would make easier but Westminster would refuse indyref2 regardless

So an SNP or SNP/Green majority would make it harder for Johnson to tell Sturgeon to sod off?

It would but he would still tell her to sod off anyway

He's just the sort of consistent, principled politician who would stick to his guns regardless. BJ would rather die in a ditch than give in to Nippy (and the majority of Scottish voters).

Boris did not have a majority last year, Parliament overruled him, he even sent a letter to the EU saying extension was not his personal decision but Parliament's, Boris now has a majority so can do what he likes until 2024

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

It will be stop indyref2 which a Unionist majority at Holyrood would make easier but Westminster would refuse indyref2 regardless

So an SNP or SNP/Green majority would make it harder for Johnson to tell Sturgeon to sod off?

It would but he would still tell her to sod off anyway

He's just the sort of consistent, principled politician who would stick to his guns regardless. BJ would rather die in a ditch than give in to Nippy (and the majority of Scottish voters).

Boris did not have a majority last year, Parliament overruled him, he even sent a letter to the EU saying extension was not his personal decision but Parliament's, Boris now has a majority so can do what he likes until 2024

Erm...about that...

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Thompson, that's an argument (I use the term loosely) for infinite political atomisation, for every house being its own nation.

The apartheid episode of Steptoe and Son springs to mind.

It's the logical endpoint of a certain kind of libertarian thinking- hence the trope of rugged men in self-built log cabins in the middle of nowhere.
It has a certain integrity. Certainly more than the "sovereign individual" concept of squilluonaires withdrawing to tax haven islands, ignoring the societal norms that made their wealth possible.

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

valleyboy said:

Good afternoon. I don't normally surface on here until evening, but I have to say that the replies on this thread have raised a large smile. Keep it up boys and girls.
FWIW if Nicola does hold a referendum and the vote is for independence it will be pretty well impossible for the UK government to resist given the Brexit referendum. It may take a few years but there is no doubting the outcome.

No it won't, the Brexit referendum was 41 years after the first EEC referendum, if the SNP win a majority next year then Sturgeon will be offered the same timeframe for the next indyref and if she refuses Boris will tell her to sod off!

The Tory campaign slogan for Holyrood next year: "Vote Labour. Not that your vote counts."

It will be stop indyref2 which a Unionist majority at Holyrood would make easier but Westminster would refuse indyref2 regardless

So an SNP or SNP/Green majority would make it harder for Johnson to tell Sturgeon to sod off?

It would but he would still tell her to sod off anyway

He's just the sort of consistent, principled politician who would stick to his guns regardless. BJ would rather die in a ditch than give in to Nippy (and the majority of Scottish voters).

In a way, getting a slim majority would actually be very messy for Sturgeon. She would call for a second Indyref, it would be duly refused, and the mother of all rows would break out in the SNP over what to do. If instead there were a slim majority Unionist coalition, 'two cheeks of the same arse' as Macl has it tacked together to 'deny independence' it would provide something else to attack, and be something of a boon.

RochdalePioneers said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/jamiegreeneUK/status/1333719316219486208?s=20

2014 was a political generation ago. It was a lifetime ago. It was an era ago.

Brexit has moved us into a new era of politics.

It was just 6 years ago, on no definition a generation

Six years can be a generation if there are meaningful changes.

I was born in 1982, my generation is called "Millenials". A child born in 1976 is Generation X. That is only a six year gap but we are different "generations".

2014 was an era where the UK was in the EU. The 2020s is a different generation politically.

A generation 'a period of about 25 to 30 years, in which most human babies become adults and have their own children.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/generation

Yes and the EU membership lasted 27 year from 1993 to 2020. That fits your 25 to 30 rule.

That generation has now drawn to a close. We are in a new generation now.

The first EEC referendum was in 1975, the second EU referendum in 2016 ie 41 years and a genuine generation.

Even Quebec's second independence referendum in 1995 was a full 15 years after the first in 1980, so rightly this Tory government will ban indyref2 whatever happens at Holyrood next year, 2014 was a once in a generation vote

Is it in the law books? No?

And even if it was we are now several Parliaments on now.

Our law and constitution in the UK is based on the sovereignty of Westminster, Westminster has a Tory majority of 80 until 2024, so tough!!

Well that attitude will win friends and influence people in Scotland won't it?

I stand with Margaret Thatcher: As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.”

In 2021 Scottish voters go to the polls. They can determine their own future.

Scots exercised their right to determination on the Thatcher principle in 2014 when they voted to stay in the UK in a once in a generation referendum, you may also not have noticed that Boris is now Tory leader not Thatcher who is no longer even alive and Boris has made clear 2014 was a once in a generation vote.

We Tories will ban indyref2 for the rest of our term in power, if you dislike that go off and vote Labour as Starmer and Leonard have not ruled out indyref2 if they win in 2024 and the SNP win a Holyrood majority next year

So, "because we English Tories say no" is a reasoned, grown-up, adult response? To a campaing for independence which has for substantial periods had majorities in Scottish representation in the European Parliament, in Westminster, and at Holyrood?

It is responses like HYFUD's that make me cheer on Scottish Indy and Irish unification

You are not a Tory, you are not a patriot, so I could not care less

Let's examine the absolute necessities of being a Tory these days, shall we:

1. Agree with an Australian-style points-based immigration system.
2. Supports lower taxes, smaller government, individual responsibilities.
3. Supports the Union.
4. Voted for Brexit.

So let's tot up who is actually a Tory here, shall we?

Only HYUFD is a Tory. Everyone else who identifies as a Tory is a traitor of varying descriptions who need to be abused and insulted and then asked if they will vote Tory.

I've seen Labour activists argue on the doorstep with life-long Labour voters for their betrayal of the Labour party as defined by the jumped-up cretin who thinks their view is the only view. I would pay real money to a real charity to go canvassing with HYUFD in Glasgow, to have him knock on their door, tell them he doesn't care what they think and to shut up.

I think BluestBlue has to be worth a mention. Most of us would be RedestRed using an avatar as embarrassing as that.

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

You read somewhere something vague which demonstrates it's all a conspiracy.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.

Trigger warning for Leavers.

https://twitter.com/xavierbertrand/status/1333799789624868867

Roger said:

I think BluestBlue has to be worth a mention. Most of us would be RedestRed using an avatar as embarrassing as that.

I miss The_Jezziah. Him and BluestBlue would have made fine opponents at a debate.

contrarian said:

Andy_Cooke said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Life is immeasurably better after mass vaccinations, or do you disagree?

IF we do indeed go 'back to normal' then hell yes.

What's being proposed for 'vaccinated Britain'' does not sound like back normal to me.

Widespread immunity due to vaccination is largely responsible for the worldwide eradication of smallpox and the elimination of diseases such as polio and tetanus from much of the world.

Yet apparently vaccination is equivalent to the Holocaust.
Is contrarian on the side of the viruses?

Smallpox, polio, tetanus and indeed tuberculosis vaccinations have been miraculous and wonderful. Perhaps society should have been shut down to prevent the spread of all these diseases before vaccines were introduced. But it wasn;t. One consequence was we generated enough wealth to develop vaccines and other great treatments.

Different times and capabilities to do so and different levels of contagion.

If for instance in the 1300 we could have shut down to stop the black death do you think we shouldn't have done?

Gallowgate said:

Any sign of a Brexit deal? 3 days to go, realistically.

2 days, 23 hours and 55 minutes until compromises are made then.

Luckyguy1983 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a good Muslim boy I've never eaten a Scotch egg, so have I missed out?

Because it sounds minging'

Delicious served hot (good ones). Don't have to use pork either, beef is fine. Egg, ground meat, breadcrumbs - all the good stuff that life's for.

I've never been able to eat eggs. It's not an allergy (I can eat cake and pretend there is no egg in it) it's more like an aversion bordering on a phobia. I even struggle with Cadbury's Creme. So I'm not going to the pub for the forseeable.

x

TheScreamingEagles said:

As a good Muslim boy I've never eaten a Scotch egg, so have I missed out?

Because it sounds minging'

Does the same apply to the lobster, crab, scallops, mussels and langoustines of which we may have a surfeit if the EU stops us being able to sell them economically in France and Spain?

contrarian said:

RobD said:

contrarian said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

FFS. Steve Baker and Des Swayne now inventing "vaccinationism".
Apparently, the government should forbid businesses and airlines from insisting on vaccination.
Apparently, if they don't they will be "the most authoritarian government since the Commonwealth."
Can anyone spot the logic fail?
The Tories were the Party who tried to avoid legislating on businesses once.

What is it with these "lockdown sceptics" who just happen to be antivaxxers?

I hate lockdowns, they are illiberal. I look forward to a vaccine so that lockdowns don't happen anymore.

''Vaccines macht frei''

Why are you against protecting yourself and others from disease?

because for the vast majority covid isn't life threatening or even serious. And those who want to protect themselves can do so by following all the lockdown rules they want.

many vulnerable people don't want, having surveyed the risks. And that is also their right.

The problem comes when all those normally healthy people bung up the health system.

I read somewhere the government has spent so much money they could have paid for private medical care for every Briton and still have change left over.

It seems the service is still the same, or even may be smaller, than at the outset, despite the original premise of lockdown . To increase capacity.

Which means the original premise of lockdown, to increase capacity, was a complete lie.

The NHS clearly never really wanted to to increase capacity. It wanted to use covid to DECREASE capacity. Which is in effect what it has done. What we have is a winter respiratory service like any other, but with far fewer treatments for other ailments. A drastically reduced NHS output, overall.

And so we have a system where the NHS decides what service it wants to offer, and society is controlled, whether through lockdown or dreadful treatment rationing, in response.

The NHS is in fact controlling everything.

Well that is utter nonsense isn't it because there are not enough private hospitals or private doctors to do so, so it could not arise and for most there is a huge overlap with the NHS anyway so there was minimal spare capacity and much of what there was was transferred. You just get the same overload.

It is like saying they could have paid for x number of flights to the moon, except the rockets don't exist.