Trump’s ongoing denial about the election results isn’t going down well with voters – politicalbetti
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She's so Priti, oh so Priti...IshmaelZ said:
Surely "and Priti, Priti being really priti"?Sunil_Prasannan said:
[voiceover] "There was me, that is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel, and my three droogs, that is Priti, Govey, and Dom, and we sat in the Kensington Milkbar trying to make up our Raab-oodocks what to do with the evening. The Kensington Milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus GM Soya or Corn Syrup or Chlorinated Chicken, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old No-deal Brexit!"OnlyLivingBoy said:
People on here are always getting politicians' names wrong. They keep referring to the PM as "Boris".Anabobazina said:
Keir.londonpubman said:
According to Sky News Corbyn's loss of whip will be reviewed in 3 months presumably by KierPhilip_Thompson said:
If those 14 people can't accept that what Corbyn did was wrong and that antisemitism is not exaggerated and is a real problem in the party then perhaps Starmer should respond by suspending from the party another 14 people who reject the EHRC conclusions.kle4 said:
It says that the withdrawal of the whip was a consequence of the suspension (and therefore wah wah it's unfair it is not restored). Seems to me those things need not be directly related, in that the whip can be withdrawn from someone without suspending them from the party, and Starmer could do it before a suspension occurred I should think.CarlottaVance said:
Excise the cancer completely.
K-E-I-R
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Another PBer who cannot spell the Loto's name!0 -
I liked the ending, but I've got a sentimental streak. The hero made the right decision IMO.Theuniondivvie said:
I was surprised that it seems to be Danish police policy to allow lone cops to attend potential high risk situations.IanB2 said:
Went off the rails at the end, though, with a storyline that became less and less credible. And that policewoman who kept taking massive blows to the head and then reappearing in the next scene with just a small plaster. Still, I always thought nuns were evil.NickPalmer said:Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.
That chubby lad with the beard must be the hardest working bloke in Scandi show business.
The chubby chap is a longstanding friend of the hero, incidentally. I think Scandi films are quite a small circuit. The series had a rocky genesis with I think 2 changes of director before it settled down.0 -
I was startled to see the poll today that only 46% of Americans feel that Trump should now concede. Another 32% think he should concede if the challenges don't work out, but 25% of Republicans think he's shouldn't concede under ANY circumstances.Philip_Thompson said:
It certainly shouldn't, but lets also be clear: They are trying - and that shouldn't happen.Anabobazina said:
I see we are back to coup d'etat hour on PB. The wine has sunk in, the fantastical posts are leaking through the mist.MikeL said:
Anything is possible.rottenborough said:
One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.Alistair said:Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline
https://twitter.com/skantrow/status/1329531142186340357?s=19
Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.
Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.
I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
To be clear: Ain't gonna happen.
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Wow something I can agree with you on.Roger said:
Bonkers!MrEd said:
That was a stupid thing of Obama. What really showed his character though was the look in his eyes at the end.isam said:
I was thinking of thiswilliamglenn said:
Was this a wise thing to do?Roy_G_Biv said:
What chaos did Obama leave behind?isam said:Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA
https://youtu.be/wC1NGWM8gP8
The issue with Trump is that he's like a bad joke that got let through first time around because he wasn't taken seriously. The joke isn't funny anymore.1 -
The Magnitsky Act that was initially opposed by the Obama administration? He only signed the globally-applicable version of it into law when he was on his way out of office in December 2016, so I don't think you can chalk it up as one of his successes.Roy_G_Biv said:
No, I wasn't taking it as a defence of Trump, I was taking it on its own merits, which were ludicrous.williamglenn said:
I wouldn't have chosen the word chaos to begin with but that's the reason I went for the example of foreign policy where Obama's record was undoubtedly chequered. What happened in the last four years to compete with the Libyan intervention, mishandling of Syria or Russia's annexation of Crimea? The world was in a more chaotic state in 2016 than in 2008 and some of that is attributable to the Obama administration.Roy_G_Biv said:
I think you have yourself beat.williamglenn said:
I can't think of a more stupid view than that it is idiotic even to entertain the idea that leaders like Obama, Cameron and Blair may have left a toxic legacy so I'm afraid you have me beat.Roy_G_Biv said:
Ah, the old "you won't agree with my idiotic views, so I'll make up another idiotic view and assign it to you" defence.williamglenn said:
Apologies, America was clearly an unmitigated force for good and a shining city upon a hill until Trump arrived and spoilt everything...Roy_G_Biv said:
In terms of fascist marches and churn of White House staff and acolytes' criminal convictions and social media invective and grossly mismanaged health crises and the gutting of international institutions and allies insulted and trade wars and government shutdowns and just the whole numbing shitness of the Loser-in-Chief failing to recognise that his own people have booted him so heartily from office.... but never mind all that. Foreign events "linked to US policy". Right. [Pats williamglenn on the head]williamglenn said:
In terms of foreign events linked to US policy, Obama's term was objectively more chaotic than Trump's.Roy_G_Biv said:
Oooooo. Chaos.isam said:
I was thinking of thiswilliamglenn said:
Was this a wise thing to do?Roy_G_Biv said:
What chaos did Obama leave behind?isam said:Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA
https://youtu.be/wC1NGWM8gP8
Sometimes known as the strawman fallacy, but I prefer to think of it as the I-can-think-of-more-stupid-ideas-than-you gambit. Well done, you. [A second pat on the head]
All I asked was what chaos. I was told "Trump" which was preposterous. Then you chipped in to tell me that it was "objectively" more chaotic than Trump's, in a simultaneously narrow and yet ill-defined way (really, god alive, what were you thinking with "Foreign events linked to US policy"?).
So in a way you were sort of getting near an answer, in a hand-wavy kind of way.. something something events.. but trying to pretend that you can help your argument by holding up Donald Trump as a comparator in the good-governance stakes? You might as well have donned a big red clown nose and a tutu.
It was meant as an ironic observation rather than the defence of Trump that you seem to have taken it as.
Now that you've identified some specific things, yes, some of those events could certainly have been handled better by Obama's government. Russia has been a big problem the last decade, and it's not just Crimea. cyber warfare, its political meddling across the West (and I'm not just talking USA, I'm talking Scotland, Brexit, France, Germany, Italy, Catalonia), its probing of Western military responses (Sweden, the Baltics, the UK), its policy of murdering people on the streets of Britain, its bargain with Assad. These are problems that need a better response from the West as a united bloc.
I could throw in a comparison now with Trump, but it's too easy and it's besides the point. Here we absolutely can judge the Obama administration on its own merits. And whilst it was imperfect, there are some good points. The Magnitsky Act is one, and both Democrats and Republicans deserve credit for that.
I don't agree that the world was more chaotic in 2016 than 2008. Some things were worse and others better. The financial crisis was pretty profound and was the cause of a lot of the problems that happened in subsequent years. I think we could have done a lot worse than Obama and Cameron during that time.
https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/2365238552194211840 -
Warren? Sunak? Mayor Pete is another white dude btw.noneoftheabove said:
Yang? Buttigieg?CarlottaVance said:Wonder who that could be?
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1329552545304485889?s=200 -
Not good. The US will be over 2000 deaths today as well.
https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1329589228595015685?s=210 -
Leaping off at a tangent... this is why new-fangled English degrees were regarded then like media studies degrees are now. Reading/watching stories is what you do for pleasure.Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not into Friends, though I agree, many find it to be great entertainment. I am not having a go at you personally, I was just mulling this topic earlier having scanned through catch up looking for stuff to watch. We praise 'moving' TV programmes, but where are they moving us from and to? If they're moving us from being in a good mood to being in a depressed mood, I question their value. The way you describe the TV show you've watched sounds like the 'reading an improving book' of the Victorian era. An act of self-flagellation that appears to have little value outside being able to tell people you've endured it (which you have duly done).TOPPING said:
It was a very uncomfortable experience.Luckyguy1983 said:
Do you like being humbled and sobered?TOPPING said:
Agree. You think it makes no sense then it all comes together very elegantly and poignantly.NickPalmer said:Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.
Started on Mangrove this evening. Excellent. Very humbling and sobering also esp. when anyone should choose to query why we should as a society go out of our way to be aware of the history of black people in this country.
Which is from time to time a good thing but by all means stick to Friends as it's much the easier watch if that's your thing.0 -
Which means Betfair will settle by Easter.Alistair said:
That means certification is tomorrow IIRC.Richard_Nabavi said:0 -
Sick of winning.FrancisUrquhart said:0 -
American Covid deaths have gone through the roof since Biden was elected.FrancisUrquhart said:1 -
It's the 25% that's alarming (although nothing we didn't already know); If you put the question as "should X do Y if Z", you're implicitly suggesting that there's a reasonable prospect of Z. I think everyone would agree that if a candidate is involved in plausible legal challenges about how many votes they got that might change the result, they shouldn't concede.NickPalmer said:
I was startled to see the poll today that only 46% of Americans feel that Trump should now concede. Another 32% think he should concede if the challenges don't work out, but 25% of Republicans think he's shouldn't concede under ANY circumstances.Philip_Thompson said:
It certainly shouldn't, but lets also be clear: They are trying - and that shouldn't happen.Anabobazina said:
I see we are back to coup d'etat hour on PB. The wine has sunk in, the fantastical posts are leaking through the mist.MikeL said:
Anything is possible.rottenborough said:
One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.Alistair said:Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline
https://twitter.com/skantrow/status/1329531142186340357?s=19
Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.
Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.
I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
To be clear: Ain't gonna happen.
*We* all know that the challenges are garbage, but it's hard to get upset at a non-betting voter who thinks, "they haven't quite finalized who won, let the guy try to persuade them he won then concede once it's clear he hasn't".0 -
Georgia statewide audit completed.
Biden wins by 12,284 - compared to 14,056 first time around - quite a significant change. A total of 5,800 votes not originally counted were uncovered.
"Georgia is required under state law to certify its election results by Friday."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/19/politics/georgia-recount-election-results/index.html0 -
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"All 83 Michigan counties have certified local election results. The Board of State Canvassers, which is composed of two Republicans and two Democrats, is to meet Monday to discuss certifying statewide results. The certification of the state board makes the results final.
Norm Shinkle, one of the two Republican members of the Board of State Canvassers, told the Free Press Wednesday he wants an audit requested by the Wayne County Board of Canvassers as a starting point, plus answers to other major election concerns he has, and he would not commit to voting to certify. Shinkle told the Washington Post Thursday he is leaning toward asking that the certification be delayed.
Any delay in certification would require at least two votes. The other Republican member of the Board of State Canvassers, Aaron Van Langevelde, has not said how he will vote Monday."
Per CBS the deadline for certification is Monday so if the vote is 2-2 what will happen? Is it possible that the Governor / Secretary of State will just go ahead and certify anyway?
https://eu.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/19/michigan-gop-leaders-trump-white-house/3779127001/0 -
White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.4 -
Breaking: Americans like winning, and are less concerned than many other folks about how.NickPalmer said:
I was startled to see the poll today that only 46% of Americans feel that Trump should now concede. Another 32% think he should concede if the challenges don't work out, but 25% of Republicans think he's shouldn't concede under ANY circumstances.Philip_Thompson said:
It certainly shouldn't, but lets also be clear: They are trying - and that shouldn't happen.Anabobazina said:
I see we are back to coup d'etat hour on PB. The wine has sunk in, the fantastical posts are leaking through the mist.MikeL said:
Anything is possible.rottenborough said:
One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.Alistair said:Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline
https://twitter.com/skantrow/status/1329531142186340357?s=19
Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.
Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.
I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
To be clear: Ain't gonna happen.0 -
Romney's comments suggest he will vote for Biden electors if Michigan sends competing electors to Congress for the count.
It's the new congress that will count the votes - so at most Romney only needs two other Republican Senators to join him if the Senate is 52-48.
However I'm not sure if the new Georgia Senators will be present - if not and it's 50-48 then it only needs Romney plus one.
Obviously if the Democrats won both Georgia seats and they are present then it's 50-50 and Romney can do it on his own.
Hopefully it won't come to the above but if it does I can imagine Romney taking great pleasure in being the centre of attention and leading the Republican rebellion to vote Trump out.2 -
The best thing which would surely bring all proceedings to an immediate end would be for Romney, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski to hold an immediate press conference saying all three of them will vote for Biden electors if competing electors are sent in states Biden won.0
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Republican Senator Ben Sasse joins Romney:
"Two prominent Republican senators on Thursday ripped President Donald Trump's attempt to overturn the results of the presidential election in Michigan, with one going so far as to call the President's strategy "undemocratic."
Utah Sen. Mitt Romney and Nebraska Sen. Ben Sasse -- two of the few lawmakers in their party who are willing to criticize Trump -- released statements late on Thursday night, taking the President to task for his attempts to overturn his loss in Michigan."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/19/politics/mitt-romney-ben-sasse-trump/index.html0 -
Biden has won Georgia. Yes, by a slightly narrower margin due to those 6000 votes being overlooked but he has still won.Scott_xP said:
US election 2020: Biden wins Georgia recount as Trump setbacks mount
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55006188
All this is showing is that Trump and his key advisers need to be sectioned, not prosecuted.0 -
"Went so far as to call it undemocratic"MikeL said:Republican Senator Ben Sasse joins Romney:
"Two prominent Republican senators on Thursday ripped President Donald Trump's attempt to overturn the results of the presidential election in Michigan, with one going so far as to call the President's strategy "undemocratic."
Utah Sen. Mitt Romney and Nebraska Sen. Ben Sasse -- two of the few lawmakers in their party who are willing to criticize Trump -- released statements late on Thursday night, taking the President to task for his attempts to overturn his loss in Michigan."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/19/politics/mitt-romney-ben-sasse-trump/index.html
Erm, it is undemocratic by any normal definition.0 -
Sasse and Romney make it 50/50 even if Trump’s antics don’t hammer the final nail in Perdue’s coffin.MikeL said:The best thing which would surely bring all proceedings to an immediate end would be for Romney, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski to hold an immediate press conference saying all three of them will vote for Biden electors if competing electors are sent in states Biden won.
Who would have the casting vote? Presumably still Pence at this point?0 -
Wonderful tweet by Romney.williamglenn said:
It has gotten to the point now where my anger has passed in favour of humour. Trump is finished in the White House so I encourage y'all to enjoy this soap opera spectacle. I mean, it has to be tempered because thousands are dying from Covid whilst the little sickie in the oval office continues his super tantrum, but it's still funny to watch.
p.s. I wonder if Sacha now regrets saving Rudy Guiliani from getting himself in even deeper in 'that' hotel bedroom.1 -
BBC produces sensible and critical report on the government’s entire test and trace program.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-550081331 -
Surely isam can't be talking about the same Donald Trump who spent ages saying that Obama wasn't the president because he was black?Roy_G_Biv said:
How come, when Trump insulted E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E during the 2016 primaries and general, that didn't "enable" his opponents?isam said:
He wasn’t able to stand again. And his smart arse piss takes out of Trump helped enable Trump. As Cameron’s smart arse piss takes out of Leave enabled Leavercs1000 said:
Trump won in 2016 because he wasn't Hillary.isam said:Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron did too in his time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types
Biden won in 2020 because he wasn't Trump.
In 2016, had he been able to stand again, I think Obama would have trounced Trump.
Politicians who call for unity & moderation don’t do so well when they go with personal attacks
But I guess it is Obama's fault for provoking him by, err, being black.1 -
Why would there be competing electors, i.e. who'd have standing to send a second slate? I suspect the most that Congress could do is reject the votes from states that overrode their election result.MikeL said:Romney's comments suggest he will vote for Biden electors if Michigan sends competing electors to Congress for the count.
It's the new congress that will count the votes - so at most Romney only needs two other Republican Senators to join him if the Senate is 52-48.
However I'm not sure if the new Georgia Senators will be present - if not and it's 50-48 then it only needs Romney plus one.
Obviously if the Democrats won both Georgia seats and they are present then it's 50-50 and Romney can do it on his own.
Hopefully it won't come to the above but if it does I can imagine Romney taking great pleasure in being the centre of attention and leading the Republican rebellion to vote Trump out.
Also keep in mind that any decision to override a state election result would be challenged all the way to the Supreme Court before it gets to Congress. If that decides it's valid (please no), would Romney & Co go against that?0 -
If Pence gets to Michigan, and it is read out 16 votes for Trump (Won't happen) - the objection raised by a sitting senator will be by him and congressman may well be by half by him !MikeL said:Romney's comments suggest he will vote for Biden electors if Michigan sends competing electors to Congress for the count.
It's the new congress that will count the votes - so at most Romney only needs two other Republican Senators to join him if the Senate is 52-48.
However I'm not sure if the new Georgia Senators will be present - if not and it's 50-48 then it only needs Romney plus one.
Obviously if the Democrats won both Georgia seats and they are present then it's 50-50 and Romney can do it on his own.
Hopefully it won't come to the above but if it does I can imagine Romney taking great pleasure in being the centre of attention and leading the Republican rebellion to vote Trump out.0 -
“I wanted to give them a present.”dixiedean said:
Celebrate Christmas. It may be the last time you see your loved ones.rottenborough said:From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:
I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".
- “What did it cost?”
“Their future.”
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Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him2
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So you think the NHS should have had a wage freeze?Roger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
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I'm sure an NHS pay freeze would have gone down swimmingly this year. 🙄Roger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
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They reported it when it happened - of course they did, it was the biggest news story at the time - but the point he's making is that the manifest safety failings, which the residents had been raising for months, weren't reported on beforehand.FrancisUrquhart said:White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.
On Brexit, if you're complaining that the media never reported on issues like immigration that so exercised leave voters, I think you're deluded.1 -
This is going to be a huge embarrassment for many previously upright Republicans as soon as the narrative moves on which it will do soon and suddenly.They've chosen to do the wrong thing and it'll have consequences. Trump is one of the few who'll be unaffected because he's beyond embarrassment.Mysticrose said:
"Went so far as to call it undemocratic"MikeL said:Republican Senator Ben Sasse joins Romney:
"Two prominent Republican senators on Thursday ripped President Donald Trump's attempt to overturn the results of the presidential election in Michigan, with one going so far as to call the President's strategy "undemocratic."
Utah Sen. Mitt Romney and Nebraska Sen. Ben Sasse -- two of the few lawmakers in their party who are willing to criticize Trump -- released statements late on Thursday night, taking the President to task for his attempts to overturn his loss in Michigan."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/19/politics/mitt-romney-ben-sasse-trump/index.html
Erm, it is undemocratic by any normal definition.0 -
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
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I'm a civil servant. I have been paid throughout, even when I couldn't work, and I and my colleagues have had the opportunity for plenty of overtime, and as it turns out our 2.5% payrise in July was ahead of inflation. I've also been working from home, so saving on petrol, and this is likely to continue so a massive improvement in my terms and conditions going forward. Also our pensions are not affected by stock market falls. I have also saved lots of money due to the inability to spend it during lockdown, or go on holiday. While I haven't made money out of the pandemic I think I'm easy about the next couple of years.Roger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
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Bollocks - most of the legally required services (Social Care and Planning) have been working full time (or more) all the time.NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
Yes there will be some people who haven't but I suspect even councils will be removing them from their payroll (as council incomes have been decimated so any cuts that can be made will have to be made. Sadly, for a lot of councils in the Red Wall seats Austerity and the impact of unfair revenue changes mean they didn't have any slack to begin with.0 -
No but they weren't the only public service workers who worked beyond the call of duty. Many doctors surgeries virtually closed down. Lots of Dentists did close down. The police and fire departments couldn't close down. You can't make a special case for one and a half million people.Fysics_Teacher said:
So you think the NHS should have had a wage freeze?Roger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
1 -
Pray tell more? Which public services have ceased to be provided since March allowing large numbers of public sector staff to stop working?NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
0 -
Unless you’re talking about Track and Trace, I am not sure who you can mean,NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
2 -
Many back office Departments within Local Authorities, I have given the example before of those that maintain or improve Council owned buildings. You would be amazed how many people are involved in that.alex_ said:
Pray tell more? Which public services have ceased to be provided since March allowing large numbers of public sector staff to stop working?NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
1 -
In what way showed his character? It's not really very surprising that Obama didn't have much respect for a guy who kept claiming that Obama wasn't really the president because he was black - the fact that youMrEd said:
That was a stupid thing of Obama. What really showed his character though was the look in his eyes at the end.isam said:
I was thinking of thiswilliamglenn said:
Was this a wise thing to do?Roy_G_Biv said:
What chaos did Obama leave behind?isam said:Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA
https://youtu.be/wC1NGWM8gP8
1. do seem to have respect for the racist fraudster
2. don't understand why Obama might not
reflects pretty badly on you.3 -
Much of the private sector have had job losses or pay cuts so no sympathy for frozen pay in secure jobs in the public sector for a year. Same for pensions.
Given the year we have had excluding the NHS from pay freezes is entirely rational. So too would the care sector though that's probably covered by minimum wage.3 -
And you know that, how? Buildings don't cease to need maintaining just because people aren't in them. I would imagine that many Councils have taken the opportunity of buildings that have been completely empty to perform works on buildings that can normally only be done out of hours, or alternatively is usually rather complicated due to the need to work around the staff that are there.NerysHughes said:
Many back office Departments within Local Authorities, I have given the example before of those that maintain or improve Council owned buildings. You would be amazed how many people are involved in that.alex_ said:
Pray tell more? Which public services have ceased to be provided since March allowing large numbers of public sector staff to stop working?NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
It hardly covers more than a small minority of staff working in "local authority backoffices" anyway. I should know since i work in a local authority back office.0 -
"As far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists"OnlyLivingBoy said:
They reported it when it happened - of course they did, it was the biggest news story at the time - but the point he's making is that the manifest safety failings, which the residents had been raising for months, weren't reported on beforehand.FrancisUrquhart said:White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.
On Brexit, if you're complaining that the media never reported on issues like immigration that so exercised leave voters, I think you're deluded.
"The media reported on immigration"
And the concerns that weren't about immigration?0 -
Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.0 -
NHS hospital staff, Junior Doctors, Hospital nurses and HCAs deserve a rise, as do many ancillary staff. But GPS, their staff etc.? Hospital Administration? Specialists who held no clinics for eight months?Fysics_Teacher said:
So you think the NHS should have had a wage freeze?Roger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
1 -
I woerk with these Electrical & Mechanical engineers at Local Authorities all the time. They are working 2-3 hours per week.alex_ said:
And you know that, how? Buildings don't cease to need maintaining just because people aren't in them. I would imagine that many Councils have taken the opportunity of buildings that have been completely empty to perform works on buildings that can normally only be done out of hours, or alternatively is usually rather complicated due to the need to work around the staff that are there.NerysHughes said:
Many back office Departments within Local Authorities, I have given the example before of those that maintain or improve Council owned buildings. You would be amazed how many people are involved in that.alex_ said:
Pray tell more? Which public services have ceased to be provided since March allowing large numbers of public sector staff to stop working?NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
It hardly covers more than a small minority of staff working in "local authority backoffices" anyway. I should know since i work in a local authority back office.
Try ringing a Council now or go to their office. The offices are shut and you cannot get an answer. Hampshire County Council employs over 40,000 staff (not including teachers) Do you think that they are all currently fully employed?1 -
Taken in isolation the case for public sector pay restraint this year is strong. Unprecedented crisis, low inflation, no idea what state the public finances will be in when the vaccines have been deployed and this is past.
However, there has been almost unbroken pay restraint in parts of the public sector since about 2006. This has consequences in terms of being able to recruit the right people, and can be a false economy when it leaves you reliant on expensive consultants whenever you want, or need, to get something different done.1 -
Aren't you making the mistake, usually levelled at Remainers, of equating concerns about immigration to racism? I think it is well established by opinion polling that immigration concerns were the largest single driver of the Leave vote. I am making no normative judgement about that. As far as I recall the BBC also reported a lot on issues like austerity that affected Leave areas. I'm not sure what else you have in mind.Philip_Thompson said:
"As far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists"OnlyLivingBoy said:
They reported it when it happened - of course they did, it was the biggest news story at the time - but the point he's making is that the manifest safety failings, which the residents had been raising for months, weren't reported on beforehand.FrancisUrquhart said:White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.
On Brexit, if you're complaining that the media never reported on issues like immigration that so exercised leave voters, I think you're deluded.
"The media reported on immigration"
And the concerns that weren't about immigration?
It's fascinating to me that every time issues affecting minorities are aired, they're told to get to the back of the grievance queue. What about white working class people, we are asked. Usually by people who don't give two shits about them at any other time.0 -
Hampshire County Council does not have 40,000 employees (excluding teachers). Where has that figure come from?NerysHughes said:
I woerk with these Electrical & Mechanical engineers at Local Authorities all the time. They are working 2-3 hours per week.alex_ said:
And you know that, how? Buildings don't cease to need maintaining just because people aren't in them. I would imagine that many Councils have taken the opportunity of buildings that have been completely empty to perform works on buildings that can normally only be done out of hours, or alternatively is usually rather complicated due to the need to work around the staff that are there.NerysHughes said:
Many back office Departments within Local Authorities, I have given the example before of those that maintain or improve Council owned buildings. You would be amazed how many people are involved in that.alex_ said:
Pray tell more? Which public services have ceased to be provided since March allowing large numbers of public sector staff to stop working?NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
It hardly covers more than a small minority of staff working in "local authority backoffices" anyway. I should know since i work in a local authority back office.
Try ringing a Council now or go to their office. The offices are shut and you cannot get an answer. Hampshire County Council employs over 40,000 staff (not including teachers) Do you think that they are all currently fully employed?
Offices being shut doesn't mean that people aren't working. There will obviously be areas where staff aren't working (or on their usual jobs anyway) - but mostly not in back office, more in frontline roles in things like leisure services.
Inability to contact people is a different thing - it will depend on how set up councils were for home working in March. And is, incidentally, not something specific to the public sector.0 -
Good luck selling this to the public when Johnson and his mates have been bunging their old chums money like it was going out of fashion.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.0 -
Yebbut Our Carers ♥Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.0 -
This Johnson government look such a mess. Like letting a hippo loose in a jewellery store. Priti Patel twice sacked for dishonesty now guilty of bullying is the perfect symbol for this Tory administration
1 -
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?3 -
My cousin works for her local council, her husband is a teacher. They have two small children. They're desperate to be able to buy their own home, sick of renting. A decade of public sector pay freezes explains why they're stuck paying someone else's mortgage. They're good people, working hard doing essential work. Don't they deserve to make a reasonable living?LostPassword said:Taken in isolation the case for public sector pay restraint this year is strong. Unprecedented crisis, low inflation, no idea what state the public finances will be in when the vaccines have been deployed and this is past.
However, there has been almost unbroken pay restraint in parts of the public sector since about 2006. This has consequences in terms of being able to recruit the right people, and can be a false economy when it leaves you reliant on expensive consultants whenever you want, or need, to get something different done.0 -
Quite - there are huge recruitment problems in many local councils (particularly in things like specialist finance roles) because the rates that can be commanded by agency staff are absolutely enormous. There are lower level staff being employed on rates significantly in excess of those who are managing them. Of course it is the entirely circular result of years of pay falling behind the private sector combined with the years of cuts piling ever increasing workloads on staff that remained.LostPassword said:Taken in isolation the case for public sector pay restraint this year is strong. Unprecedented crisis, low inflation, no idea what state the public finances will be in when the vaccines have been deployed and this is past.
However, there has been almost unbroken pay restraint in parts of the public sector since about 2006. This has consequences in terms of being able to recruit the right people, and can be a false economy when it leaves you reliant on expensive consultants whenever you want, or need, to get something different done.1 -
I never said anything about the white working class.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Aren't you making the mistake, usually levelled at Remainers, of equating concerns about immigration to racism? I think it is well established by opinion polling that immigration concerns were the largest single driver of the Leave vote. I am making no normative judgement about that. As far as I recall the BBC also reported a lot on issues like austerity that affected Leave areas. I'm not sure what else you have in mind.Philip_Thompson said:
"As far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists"OnlyLivingBoy said:
They reported it when it happened - of course they did, it was the biggest news story at the time - but the point he's making is that the manifest safety failings, which the residents had been raising for months, weren't reported on beforehand.FrancisUrquhart said:White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.
On Brexit, if you're complaining that the media never reported on issues like immigration that so exercised leave voters, I think you're deluded.
"The media reported on immigration"
And the concerns that weren't about immigration?
It's fascinating to me that every time issues affecting minorities are aired, they're told to get to the back of the grievance queue. What about white working class people, we are asked. Usually by people who don't give two shits about them at any other time.
Immigration was not the sole concern. But people act as if that is all it boiled down to.
If Leave was just concerns about immigration I'd have voted Remain.0 -
Apply policies fairly and consistently?Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?0 -
First result on Google search for "Hampshire county council workforce size"alex_ said:
Hampshire County Council does not have 40,000 employees (excluding teachers). Where has that figure come from?NerysHughes said:
I woerk with these Electrical & Mechanical engineers at Local Authorities all the time. They are working 2-3 hours per week.alex_ said:
And you know that, how? Buildings don't cease to need maintaining just because people aren't in them. I would imagine that many Councils have taken the opportunity of buildings that have been completely empty to perform works on buildings that can normally only be done out of hours, or alternatively is usually rather complicated due to the need to work around the staff that are there.NerysHughes said:
Many back office Departments within Local Authorities, I have given the example before of those that maintain or improve Council owned buildings. You would be amazed how many people are involved in that.alex_ said:
Pray tell more? Which public services have ceased to be provided since March allowing large numbers of public sector staff to stop working?NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
It hardly covers more than a small minority of staff working in "local authority backoffices" anyway. I should know since i work in a local authority back office.
Try ringing a Council now or go to their office. The offices are shut and you cannot get an answer. Hampshire County Council employs over 40,000 staff (not including teachers) Do you think that they are all currently fully employed?
Offices being shut doesn't mean that people aren't working. There will obviously be areas where staff aren't working (or on their usual jobs anyway) - but mostly not in back office, more in frontline roles in things like leisure services.
Inability to contact people is a different thing - it will depend on how set up councils were for home working in March. And is, incidentally, not something specific to the public sector.
"In March 2019 the Council had 12,839 employees which corresponded to an FTE of 9,818.5. Reviewing FTE as well as headcount enables the Council to better understand the overall workforce and cost profile."
Being out by a factor of 3 to 4 is reasonably good by the standards of most pubic debate this year.4 -
Such as? What exactly?IshmaelZ said:
Apply policies fairly and consistently?Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?
Would you have frozen NHS pay?0 -
Do you work? Unless you are so surplus to requirements you can post here from dawn to dusk I can only imagine you're either retired or a hypocrite.Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?1 -
What evidence do you have that private sector wages have outstripped public sector ones?alex_ said:
Quite - there are huge recruitment problems in many local councils (particularly in things like specialist finance roles) because the rates that can be commanded by agency staff are absolutely enormous. There are lower level staff being employed on rates significantly in excess of those who are managing them. Of course it is the entirely circular result of years of pay falling behind the private sector combined with the years of cuts piling ever increasing workloads on staff that remained.LostPassword said:Taken in isolation the case for public sector pay restraint this year is strong. Unprecedented crisis, low inflation, no idea what state the public finances will be in when the vaccines have been deployed and this is past.
However, there has been almost unbroken pay restraint in parts of the public sector since about 2006. This has consequences in terms of being able to recruit the right people, and can be a false economy when it leaves you reliant on expensive consultants whenever you want, or need, to get something different done.1 -
You are not a typical Leave voter.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything about the white working class.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Aren't you making the mistake, usually levelled at Remainers, of equating concerns about immigration to racism? I think it is well established by opinion polling that immigration concerns were the largest single driver of the Leave vote. I am making no normative judgement about that. As far as I recall the BBC also reported a lot on issues like austerity that affected Leave areas. I'm not sure what else you have in mind.Philip_Thompson said:
"As far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists"OnlyLivingBoy said:
They reported it when it happened - of course they did, it was the biggest news story at the time - but the point he's making is that the manifest safety failings, which the residents had been raising for months, weren't reported on beforehand.FrancisUrquhart said:White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.
On Brexit, if you're complaining that the media never reported on issues like immigration that so exercised leave voters, I think you're deluded.
"The media reported on immigration"
And the concerns that weren't about immigration?
It's fascinating to me that every time issues affecting minorities are aired, they're told to get to the back of the grievance queue. What about white working class people, we are asked. Usually by people who don't give two shits about them at any other time.
Immigration was not the sole concern. But people act as if that is all it boiled down to.
If Leave was just concerns about immigration I'd have voted Remain.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/784395049618509825?s=191 -
Yes I work though I was furloughed during lockdown and providing childcare then.Roger said:
Do you work? Unless you are so surplus to requirements you can post here from dawn to dusk I can only imagine you're either retired or a hypocrite.Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?
I don't post dawn to dusk, my post count is much lower than many other people's. So what's your issue other than I may say things you dislike?1 -
We are in a depression, there is no magic money tree!. Anyway the important thing is that MPs, who have worked like dogs throughout the pandemic got a nice deal.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.0 -
-
Applied policies fairly and consistently.Philip_Thompson said:
Such as? What exactly?IshmaelZ said:
Apply policies fairly and consistently?Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?
Would you have frozen NHS pay?
You are a fan of recognising and identifying realpolitik, so here's a question. In adopting this policy, do you think the government were thinking a. Our Carers ♥♥♥ or b. This'll do us some electoral good with the kind of micropenised imbeciles who voted Leave because of the £350m bus promise?0 -
That's a dishonest image.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You are not a typical Leave voter.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything about the white working class.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Aren't you making the mistake, usually levelled at Remainers, of equating concerns about immigration to racism? I think it is well established by opinion polling that immigration concerns were the largest single driver of the Leave vote. I am making no normative judgement about that. As far as I recall the BBC also reported a lot on issues like austerity that affected Leave areas. I'm not sure what else you have in mind.Philip_Thompson said:
"As far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists"OnlyLivingBoy said:
They reported it when it happened - of course they did, it was the biggest news story at the time - but the point he's making is that the manifest safety failings, which the residents had been raising for months, weren't reported on beforehand.FrancisUrquhart said:White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.
On Brexit, if you're complaining that the media never reported on issues like immigration that so exercised leave voters, I think you're deluded.
"The media reported on immigration"
And the concerns that weren't about immigration?
It's fascinating to me that every time issues affecting minorities are aired, they're told to get to the back of the grievance queue. What about white working class people, we are asked. Usually by people who don't give two shits about them at any other time.
Immigration was not the sole concern. But people act as if that is all it boiled down to.
If Leave was just concerns about immigration I'd have voted Remain.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/784395049618509825?s=19
Immigration is the sole word to define that concern so it stands out but other concerns have synonyms so they appear smaller.
Sovereignty, control, laws etc.
Numerical data actually shows immigration was only the secondary concern overall.2 -
And what look would that be ?MrEd said:
That was a stupid thing of Obama. What really showed his character though was the look in his eyes at the end.isam said:
I was thinking of thiswilliamglenn said:
Was this a wise thing to do?Roy_G_Biv said:
What chaos did Obama leave behind?isam said:Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHckZCxdRkA
https://youtu.be/wC1NGWM8gP8
0 -
Asinine and snide sums up your Government.Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?1 -
A.IshmaelZ said:
Applied policies fairly and consistently.Philip_Thompson said:
Such as? What exactly?IshmaelZ said:
Apply policies fairly and consistently?Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?
Would you have frozen NHS pay?
You are a fan of recognising and identifying realpolitik, so here's a question. In adopting this policy, do you think the government were thinking a. Our Carers ♥♥♥ or b. This'll do us some electoral good with the kind of micropenised imbeciles who voted Leave because of the £350m bus promise?
That B came into your head says a lot about you.1 -
The government has a magic money tree, sadly it only works for for pork barrel politics.2
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I think you've invented a new word!IshmaelZ said:
Applied policies fairly and consistently.Philip_Thompson said:
Such as? What exactly?IshmaelZ said:
Apply policies fairly and consistently?Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?
Would you have frozen NHS pay?
You are a fan of recognising and identifying realpolitik, so here's a question. In adopting this policy, do you think the government were thinking a. Our Carers ♥♥♥ or b. This'll do us some electoral good with the kind of micropenised imbeciles who voted Leave because of the £350m bus promise?0 -
Bless ♥♥♥Philip_Thompson said:
A.IshmaelZ said:
Applied policies fairly and consistently.Philip_Thompson said:
Such as? What exactly?IshmaelZ said:
Apply policies fairly and consistently?Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?
Would you have frozen NHS pay?
You are a fan of recognising and identifying realpolitik, so here's a question. In adopting this policy, do you think the government were thinking a. Our Carers ♥♥♥ or b. This'll do us some electoral good with the kind of micropenised imbeciles who voted Leave because of the £350m bus promise?
That B came into your head says a lot about you.0 -
"Borders" and "control" also refer to immigration for many people. You're clutching at straws. I know immigration wasn't your reason for voting Leave, but you are not a normal Leave voter.Philip_Thompson said:
That's a dishonest image.OnlyLivingBoy said:
You are not a typical Leave voter.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said anything about the white working class.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Aren't you making the mistake, usually levelled at Remainers, of equating concerns about immigration to racism? I think it is well established by opinion polling that immigration concerns were the largest single driver of the Leave vote. I am making no normative judgement about that. As far as I recall the BBC also reported a lot on issues like austerity that affected Leave areas. I'm not sure what else you have in mind.Philip_Thompson said:
"As far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists"OnlyLivingBoy said:
They reported it when it happened - of course they did, it was the biggest news story at the time - but the point he's making is that the manifest safety failings, which the residents had been raising for months, weren't reported on beforehand.FrancisUrquhart said:White men’s control of the news agenda must end, says BBC boss
Mr Munro also admitted that the national broadcaster and other news organisations were blindsided by the failings that led to the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 because so few journalists had grown up on housing estates.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/white-men-s-control-of-the-news-agenda-must-end-says-bbc-boss-psdbsx7tq
Nonsense example given of supposed BBC failing to grasp a situation in Grenfell Tower. They were all over that story. Now failing to understand why people voted Brexit or all these Northerners voting Tory in the GE, now BBC News lot are totally clueless about that, as far as they are concerned it is because they are all a load of thick racists.
On Brexit, if you're complaining that the media never reported on issues like immigration that so exercised leave voters, I think you're deluded.
"The media reported on immigration"
And the concerns that weren't about immigration?
It's fascinating to me that every time issues affecting minorities are aired, they're told to get to the back of the grievance queue. What about white working class people, we are asked. Usually by people who don't give two shits about them at any other time.
Immigration was not the sole concern. But people act as if that is all it boiled down to.
If Leave was just concerns about immigration I'd have voted Remain.
https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/784395049618509825?s=19
Immigration is the sole word to define that concern so it stands out but other concerns have synonyms so they appear smaller.
Sovereignty, control, laws etc.
Numerical data actually shows immigration was only the secondary concern overall.0 -
Most of the concerns about Trump's behaviour are pretty ephemeral.
The thing I really hope can be reversed is the emergency order to chisel his face into Mount Rushmore before inauguration day. Theodore Roosevelt is enough of an embarrassment.0 -
the 14th December can't come soon enough.0
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If I were in charge of public sector pay and had an increase available for some but not all I would do something like:Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?
Front line workers who have been working throughout:
Salary >50k no rise
Salary 35-50k smaller rise
Salary <35k bigger rise
Other workers:
Salary >35k no rise
Salary <35k smaller rise
That seems fairer than NHS only.0 -
Figures from the first half of the year:alex_ said:
Hampshire County Council does not have 40,000 employees (excluding teachers). Where has that figure come from?NerysHughes said:
I woerk with these Electrical & Mechanical engineers at Local Authorities all the time. They are working 2-3 hours per week.alex_ said:
And you know that, how? Buildings don't cease to need maintaining just because people aren't in them. I would imagine that many Councils have taken the opportunity of buildings that have been completely empty to perform works on buildings that can normally only be done out of hours, or alternatively is usually rather complicated due to the need to work around the staff that are there.NerysHughes said:
Many back office Departments within Local Authorities, I have given the example before of those that maintain or improve Council owned buildings. You would be amazed how many people are involved in that.alex_ said:
Pray tell more? Which public services have ceased to be provided since March allowing large numbers of public sector staff to stop working?NerysHughes said:
A lot of the public sector have barely worked since MarchRoger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
It hardly covers more than a small minority of staff working in "local authority backoffices" anyway. I should know since i work in a local authority back office.
Try ringing a Council now or go to their office. The offices are shut and you cannot get an answer. Hampshire County Council employs over 40,000 staff (not including teachers) Do you think that they are all currently fully employed?
Offices being shut doesn't mean that people aren't working. There will obviously be areas where staff aren't working (or on their usual jobs anyway) - but mostly not in back office, more in frontline roles in things like leisure services.
Inability to contact people is a different thing - it will depend on how set up councils were for home working in March. And is, incidentally, not something specific to the public sector.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-job-retention-scheme-statistics-july-2020/coronavirus-job-retention-scheme-statistics-july-2020
the local authority with the highest proportion of employments furloughed was South Lakeland at 40% and the lowest was Boston in Lincolnshire at 20%
The proportion will almost certainly be significantly lower now.0 -
It's not private sector wages - it's market supply and demand.Philip_Thompson said:
What evidence do you have that private sector wages have outstripped public sector ones?alex_ said:
Quite - there are huge recruitment problems in many local councils (particularly in things like specialist finance roles) because the rates that can be commanded by agency staff are absolutely enormous. There are lower level staff being employed on rates significantly in excess of those who are managing them. Of course it is the entirely circular result of years of pay falling behind the private sector combined with the years of cuts piling ever increasing workloads on staff that remained.LostPassword said:Taken in isolation the case for public sector pay restraint this year is strong. Unprecedented crisis, low inflation, no idea what state the public finances will be in when the vaccines have been deployed and this is past.
However, there has been almost unbroken pay restraint in parts of the public sector since about 2006. This has consequences in terms of being able to recruit the right people, and can be a false economy when it leaves you reliant on expensive consultants whenever you want, or need, to get something different done.
For an Adult social worker doing contract work the market rate is between £32 and £40 an hour - which is £1200 to £1500 a week or £55,200 to £69,000 a year.
Looking at my local council website the salary is £28,672.00 - £34,728.00
And the contract worker can close the door and walk away at any time and does not need to deal with internal politics nor often half the paperwork council workers actually do.
This is true throughout whole sections of the public sector where the wages just haven't kept up with demand.1 -
Surely the US has an institution for the criminally insane?ydoethur said:
Biden has won Georgia. Yes, by a slightly narrower margin due to those 6000 votes being overlooked but he has still won.Scott_xP said:
US election 2020: Biden wins Georgia recount as Trump setbacks mount
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55006188
All this is showing is that Trump and his key advisers need to be sectioned, not prosecuted.0 -
I am a self employed advocate. In the period March to June, when the courts were largely shut, my income was cut by more than 40%. In fairness my costs fell too as I wasn't going anywhere so actual profits did not fall as much. After that, in July-September, I was earning more like 80% of normal and in the last couple of months I have been earning more like 120% as the courts are trying to catch up.JohnLilburne said:
I'm a civil servant. I have been paid throughout, even when I couldn't work, and I and my colleagues have had the opportunity for plenty of overtime, and as it turns out our 2.5% payrise in July was ahead of inflation. I've also been working from home, so saving on petrol, and this is likely to continue so a massive improvement in my terms and conditions going forward. Also our pensions are not affected by stock market falls. I have also saved lots of money due to the inability to spend it during lockdown, or go on holiday. While I haven't made money out of the pandemic I think I'm easy about the next couple of years.Roger said:Interesting that Richi has decided on a public sector freeze on wages but excluded the NHS. Those backing him for leader might think about cutting their losses now. It makes no sense. Some of the NHS worked well beyond the call of duty many didn't but the same applies to many other emergency service workers. It's another typical Johnson mess in the making but this time he's dragging Sunak in with him
It's quite hard to judge how much my taxable income will have fallen this year over all but a rough guess is something like 20%. Personally I am grateful that the government allowed me to defer the tax that was due in July but I worry about catching up with that in January. Other than the deferment I have had no other government help. I think that those who have continued to draw their full salaries throughout, whether working or not, should appreciate their good fortune and the strain cost of the country continuing to pay those salaries when its income and tax take had fallen by something similar to mine.
I very much welcome that self awareness on the part of @JohnLilburne . I wish it was more widely shared.4 -
What it demonstrates, yet again, is that Patel is an habitual liar in her official capacity.Scott_xP said:
Is there any evidence that she is even a competent minister ?0 -
0
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The issue is house prices not wagesOnlyLivingBoy said:
My cousin works for her local council, her husband is a teacher. They have two small children. They're desperate to be able to buy their own home, sick of renting. A decade of public sector pay freezes explains why they're stuck paying someone else's mortgage. They're good people, working hard doing essential work. Don't they deserve to make a reasonable living?LostPassword said:Taken in isolation the case for public sector pay restraint this year is strong. Unprecedented crisis, low inflation, no idea what state the public finances will be in when the vaccines have been deployed and this is past.
However, there has been almost unbroken pay restraint in parts of the public sector since about 2006. This has consequences in terms of being able to recruit the right people, and can be a false economy when it leaves you reliant on expensive consultants whenever you want, or need, to get something different done.4 -
Still churning out the arguments from the 1970s and 1980s. "Working harder and longer in the private sector, only to be overtaxed to finance all these idle and feckless public sector spongers".Philip_Thompson said:
What evidence do you have that private sector wages have outstripped public sector ones?alex_ said:
Quite - there are huge recruitment problems in many local councils (particularly in things like specialist finance roles) because the rates that can be commanded by agency staff are absolutely enormous. There are lower level staff being employed on rates significantly in excess of those who are managing them. Of course it is the entirely circular result of years of pay falling behind the private sector combined with the years of cuts piling ever increasing workloads on staff that remained.LostPassword said:Taken in isolation the case for public sector pay restraint this year is strong. Unprecedented crisis, low inflation, no idea what state the public finances will be in when the vaccines have been deployed and this is past.
However, there has been almost unbroken pay restraint in parts of the public sector since about 2006. This has consequences in terms of being able to recruit the right people, and can be a false economy when it leaves you reliant on expensive consultants whenever you want, or need, to get something different done.0 -
Actually, no - it's varied according to whether we can work effectively from home and whether our clients are OK. My main income is from a charity that continues to employ me full-time (with a pay freeze, but that's OK), and from translation for official bodies that have if anything increased their demand - my income went up and my daily expenses fell. That's not unique or even unusual among white-collar workers. While I give away a reasonable amount, it'd be much better if the German bank proposal of taxing home work and giving a tax break to essential workers or something similar was implemented. This is not an anti-Government point - it would simply be fairer.Philip_Thompson said:
Everyone's faced a tough year.Scott_xP said:Yeah, nobody on this list has had a tough year...
Nearly four million public-sector workers, including soldiers, police officers, teachers and civil servants, face a pay freeze next year to help to repair the nation’s coronavirus-ravaged finances.
The private sector that funds that lot has been ravaged much harder. So what would you do besides asinine, snide Tweets?1 -
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Well, I wasn't convinced before, but that parade of whiners has definitively persuaded me that Priti should stay.Scott_xP said:2 -
Why do Tories always resort to this outdated public vs. private nonsense. The situation is far more nuanced. Some companies are reporting big profits. I am not sure Amazon needs any help paying its bills. Meanwhile some councils are close to bankruptcy.2
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“Their basic argument is this was a conspiracy so vast and so successful that there’s no evidence of it,” : John Bolton, former national security adviser.0
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Eh? Surely that you accept her as a habitual liar proves she comfortably meets the key competency requirement for this cabinet?Nigelb said:
What it demonstrates, yet again, is that Patel is an habitual liar in her official capacity.Scott_xP said:
Is there any evidence that she is even a competent minister ?1 -
The current Republican party ?Chris said:
Surely the US has an institution for the criminally insane?ydoethur said:
Biden has won Georgia. Yes, by a slightly narrower margin due to those 6000 votes being overlooked but he has still won.Scott_xP said:
US election 2020: Biden wins Georgia recount as Trump setbacks mount
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-55006188
All this is showing is that Trump and his key advisers need to be sectioned, not prosecuted.0
