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SystemSystem Posts: 12,157
edited August 2020 in General
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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,945
    Now the Scottish LDs have passed into irrelevant obscurity, the Scottish Greens appear to have adopted the mantle of ill-founded self importance.

    https://twitter.com/scotgp/status/1293191963525578752?s=20
  • As with upgrading the downgrades, the Scots have led the way to this thread.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,097

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
  • Now the Scottish LDs have passed into irrelevant obscurity, the Scottish Greens appear to have adopted the mantle of ill-founded self importance.

    https://twitter.com/scotgp/status/1293191963525578752?s=20

    As the picture shows, it would have been relatively easy to run socially-distanced exams, neatly avoiding this whole kerfuffle.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,703
    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,803
    edited August 2020
    MikeL said:

    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.

    Youy're forgetting that the results still rank people, and there are dates on the certificates.

    Either the system will revert to the pre-virus procedures and no comparable special treatment, which is rough justice of sorts but a special case (as, it must be said, so much else to do with the virus). Or the system needs to be reviewed in its approach to grading. It will be very interesting to see what the promised review in Scotland does.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Its been claimed that France and Germany accept many more seekers than the UK though, so these are the ones presumably who are not successful in their applications.....???

  • MikeL said:

    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.

    Which employers are these who are recruiting non-graduates and who care how much the new man in sales can remember about Tudor monarchs or the photoelectric effect? That's the sad truth for school-leavers: none of it matters very much and in a few years, it won't matter at all.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    If you debase a currency, it doesn't buy you any more than it would have done before.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786
    Am I the only one who feels distress when our Education Secretary, no less, claims that 2020 is "so unique"?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786

    Now the Scottish LDs have passed into irrelevant obscurity, the Scottish Greens appear to have adopted the mantle of ill-founded self importance.

    https://twitter.com/scotgp/status/1293191963525578752?s=20

    Patrick Harvey was the most annoying man in Scottish politics when Salmond was still active. A truly remarkable achievement.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    Carnyx said:

    MikeL said:

    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.

    Youy're forgetting that the results still rank people, and there are dates on the certificates.

    Either the system will revert to the pre-virus procedures and no comparable special treatment, which is rough justice of sorts but a special case (as, it must be said, so much else to do with the virus). Or the system needs to be reviewed in its approach to grading. It will be very interesting to see what the promised review in Scotland does.
    Option B.

    The point is that this has shown with brutal clarity that the people running our exam systems are morons.

    Now those of us who have worked for them - as I have - and seen their incompetence up close knew that already.

    But as of this moment, everyone knows are exams are controlled by people who cannot manage simple quality control processes or basic statistics.

    How does that affect the credibility of exams going forward? Hint - not positively.

    So I do not see how either OFQUAL or the SQA or indeed the direct exam boards survive this fiasco. They already looked shaky enough even before today’s announcement (and given the way England’s results are set up, I am 99% sure Williamson will have to follow suit here).

    That might well be a good thing. But it does depend on what replaces them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786
    edited August 2020
    FPT
    Theuniondivvie said:
    » show previous quotes
    As a matter of interest what was your solution to this year's exam situation? If I missed it amongst all the sound and the fury, apologies.

    I said:
    The point of an external exam system is to have some form of external, objective assessment. That is what the exams usually achieve. What was required for each student was their prelim plus, say, a maximum of 2 pieces of course work that someone could look at externally and assess. Had they done that then the marking would have focused on the child, not on the system.

    By using the algorithm, and now by using the unmediated teacher assessments, there is no external assessment at all. The exam results are therefore as credible as the HNC and HND "results" now handed out by colleges.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    DavidL said:

    Am I the only one who feels distress when our Education Secretary, no less, claims that 2020 is "so unique"?

    I blame his teachers.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,803
    DavidL said:

    Now the Scottish LDs have passed into irrelevant obscurity, the Scottish Greens appear to have adopted the mantle of ill-founded self importance.

    https://twitter.com/scotgp/status/1293191963525578752?s=20

    Patrick Harvey was the most annoying man in Scottish politics when Salmond was still active. A truly remarkable achievement.
    Whohe? Googled ... oh, you mean Patrick Harvie.

    Why "was"? Who's his successor? Ross Greer?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,361
    At least in England we shall benefit from Gavin Williamson bringing his impressive expertise, maturity, independence of thought, and depth of understanding of matters educational to bear over the next difficult couple of weeks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Now the Scottish LDs have passed into irrelevant obscurity, the Scottish Greens appear to have adopted the mantle of ill-founded self importance.

    https://twitter.com/scotgp/status/1293191963525578752?s=20

    Patrick Harvey was the most annoying man in Scottish politics when Salmond was still active. A truly remarkable achievement.
    Whohe? Googled ... oh, you mean Patrick Harvie.

    Why "was"? Who's his successor? Ross Greer?
    I think he is still undefeated (although listening to Mike Russell wittering this afternoon was just painful).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    At least in England we shall benefit from Gavin Williamson bringing his impressive expertise, maturity, independence of thought, and depth of understanding of matters educational to bear over the next difficult couple of weeks.

    He is certainly, in Sir Humphrey’s phrase, possessed of enviable intellectual suppleness and moral manoeuvrability.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Its been claimed that France and Germany accept many more seekers than the UK though, so these are the ones presumably who are not successful in their applications.....???

    Germany and France each receive three times or more the number of applications as the UK.
    Germany accepts a similar percentage of applicants to us (somewhere around half), and France around a third of applicants.
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics#Main_countries_of_destination:_Germany.2C_France_and_Spain
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,660
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Thanks. So the genuine asylum seekers paying silly money to traffickers for an inflatable dinghy would be far better off just getting on the first flight from [insert random airport here].
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786

    If you debase a currency, it doesn't buy you any more than it would have done before.

    That's the really shocking thing about this fiasco. Everyone is focusing on these people whose results were marked down, no one is focusing on every child in Scotland who have been robbed today of the value of their certificates.
  • USA Dem VP betting -- Rice favourite and Demings third-best following @TheKitchenCabinet's post on the previous thread about the DNC speakers' schedule.

    Susan Rice: 2.4
    Kamala Harris: 2.58
    Val Demings: 16.5
    Gretchen Whitmer: 18.5
    Elizabeth Warren: 19
    Michelle Obama: 28
    Tammy Duckworth: 36
    Hillary Clinton: 55
    Karen Bass: 60
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 80
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 150
    Stacey Abrams: 150
    Gina Raimondo: 200
    Barack Obama: 260

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,865

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Its been claimed that France and Germany accept many more seekers than the UK though, so these are the ones presumably who are not successful in their applications.....???

    Quite possible the french and german's have an unofficial policy of encouraging selected migrants to apply. IE those with skills and discourage the rest. Not saying they do but I would be able to see the attraction then encourage the others to go to calais etc.

    In the talk of migrants in the last thread I did notice one thing which was glaring by its omission. There was lots of talk of fair share and fair to migrants. No talk of what was fair to the people of this country. The ones who have to pay for it all even though a lot are barely scraping by, or the ones that have continuously been pushed down housing lists as more needy people entered above them. The people having to rent homes not actually big enough because competition for housing has pushed rents up or have to endure the infrastructure we have which isn't good enough to serve those already here.

    Strange that people never mention these people when arguing we should let even more people in. It's almost as if it won't really affect them. They aren't applying for council housing 3p on the basic income tax won't be missed. They have a home and a mortgage and are quite content they won't need to compete for suitable rented accommodation where the rent actually costs more than the mortgage they supposedly can't afford. It won't be their kids taught in schools which have multilingual classes moving slowly because the grasp of english isn't good enough.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,097
    edited August 2020

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Its been claimed that France and Germany accept many more seekers than the UK though, so these are the ones presumably who are not successful in their applications.....???

    France receives about ten times as many asylum applications as we do per year, c/300,000.

    The French government strategy for them is to encourage as many as possible to leave the country before the French government has to make a decision. So, you put them in camps in shitty parts of the country with no jobs, and which are near other countries where they will hopefully self deport to.

    Of the 300,000, perhaps 50-75,000 will attempt to leave France for Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden and the UK. And perhaps 10% of them (c. 6,000/year) try to come to the UK - which is seen as (a) an better place to be an immigrant (generally), and (b) is a place where they are going to find it easier, as they probably speak English already.

    Edit: my numbers are out of date. At the peak of the European migration crisis, France was up to close to 300,000 asylum seekers a year, but it has since fallen to 125,000. Scale my numbers accordingly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    edited August 2020
    DavidL said:

    If you debase a currency, it doesn't buy you any more than it would have done before.

    That's the really shocking thing about this fiasco. Everyone is focusing on these people whose results were marked down, no one is focusing on every child in Scotland who have been robbed today of the value of their certificates.
    Two wrongs are very much not making a right here.

    But I am afraid this was inevitable the moment exams were cancelled without thought being given as to what could replace them.

    Edit - I think it would have been less of an issue if they hadn’t previously said teacher gradings were not credible. Now they’re saying their replacement was less credible. This way lies madnes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    At least in England we shall benefit from Gavin Williamson bringing his impressive expertise, maturity, independence of thought, and depth of understanding of matters educational to bear over the next difficult couple of weeks.

    He is certainly, in Sir Humphrey’s phrase, possessed of enviable intellectual suppleness and moral manoeuvrability.
    Loose, rather than supple, I think ?

    And perhaps imbecility, in place of manoeuvrability.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,660
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    MikeL said:

    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.

    Youy're forgetting that the results still rank people, and there are dates on the certificates.

    Either the system will revert to the pre-virus procedures and no comparable special treatment, which is rough justice of sorts but a special case (as, it must be said, so much else to do with the virus). Or the system needs to be reviewed in its approach to grading. It will be very interesting to see what the promised review in Scotland does.
    Option B.

    The point is that this has shown with brutal clarity that the people running our exam systems are morons.

    Now those of us who have worked for them - as I have - and seen their incompetence up close knew that already.

    But as of this moment, everyone knows are exams are controlled by people who cannot manage simple quality control processes or basic statistics.

    How does that affect the credibility of exams going forward? Hint - not positively.

    So I do not see how either OFQUAL or the SQA or indeed the direct exam boards survive this fiasco. They already looked shaky enough even before today’s announcement (and given the way England’s results are set up, I am 99% sure Williamson will have to follow suit here).

    That might well be a good thing. But it does depend on what replaces them.
    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'.




  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Its been claimed that France and Germany accept many more seekers than the UK though, so these are the ones presumably who are not successful in their applications.....???

    France receives about ten times as many asylum applications as we do per year, c/300,000.

    The French government strategy for them is to encourage as many as possible to leave the country before the French government has to make a decision. So, you put them in camps in shitty parts of the country with no jobs, and which are near other countries where they will hopefully self deport to.

    Of the 300,000, perhaps 50-75,000 will attempt to leave France for Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden and the UK. And perhaps 10% of them (c. 6,000/year) try to come to the UK - which is seen as (a) an better place to be an immigrant (generally), and (b) is a place where they are going to find it easier, as they probably speak English already.

    Edit: my numbers are out of date. At the peak of the European migration crisis, France was up to close to 300,000 asylum seekers a year, but it has since fallen to 125,000. Scale my numbers accordingly.
    So its a sort of SAS boot camp selection. If you can survive long enough in the poor conditions we offer you to force us to make a decision, you're in.
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    FPT

    ukpaul said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Migrants from France live in a country of peace, freedom and relative prosperity.

    Migrants from Hong Kong don't. They are under a yoke of oppression that gets heavier by the day and we are partly responsible because they were once our colony.

    Our duty to them far outweighs our duty to those who love in peace and freedom in France.

    We should do all we can to help both groups.
    I don't think we have any obligation to people who live in foreign countries that are peaceful, free and prosperous. None whatsoever.
    I've not got a huge problem with the principle that the country of first safe arrival should process the asylum application.

    But I would say that coming from Britain due to the advantageous geography. Were I from Turkey, I'd have a massive problem with it as, I am sure, would you. And indeed Turkey gets many, many times the applications we do.

    However, the false claim is that the asylum seeker himself is acting unlawfully by putting in an application in a country other than the one in which he first sets foot. That's simply a lie put about by people who should know better.

    What is required is more effective agreements between states, which presumably would come at a cost to geographically advantaged countries like the UK, Ireland, and Denmark, as there is little incentive for countries on the Med in playing ball with the UK dumping people back wherever they reckon they might have passed through.

    Imagine a world where asylum seekers are pooled and redistributed irrespective of where they made the claim. You’d be fucked off royally to end up in Iceland!

    But I do agree with your general point. It’s why I fully support the 0.7% foreign aid budget, even if I might not always agree with how it is spent.
    Iceland is one step up from St. Helena, which was the proposal (later said to be a joke but for all the world reading like it was deadly serious) from one contributor here.
    Iceland is very far from being St Helena. It's a small country but very economically developed etc.

    The proposal to pool refugees and take them from camps near the conflict zones is a good one. A pity that it was not done.

    The people crossing the channel are mostly economic migrants. "Mostly" because such things are not black and white (ha). Many are leaving a fucked up country, where they could stay....
    Iceland is a jackpot for anyone seeking a new country. For one thing, they have enough geothermal energy to keep heating costs low and enough left over to heat the pavements in downtown Reykjavik! Lots of lovely space if you want it, stunning scenery, decent entertainment options and you can easily get by with speaking English.
    But the food? I have never seen an Icelandic restaurant.
    It's fine. Stay away from fermented shark, though, only tourists are stupid enough to try it.

    EDIT: Having read further, I see it's already been mentioned....
  • eekeek Posts: 28,357
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    MikeL said:

    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.

    Youy're forgetting that the results still rank people, and there are dates on the certificates.

    Either the system will revert to the pre-virus procedures and no comparable special treatment, which is rough justice of sorts but a special case (as, it must be said, so much else to do with the virus). Or the system needs to be reviewed in its approach to grading. It will be very interesting to see what the promised review in Scotland does.
    Option B.

    The point is that this has shown with brutal clarity that the people running our exam systems are morons.

    Now those of us who have worked for them - as I have - and seen their incompetence up close knew that already.

    But as of this moment, everyone knows are exams are controlled by people who cannot manage simple quality control processes or basic statistics.

    How does that affect the credibility of exams going forward? Hint - not positively.

    So I do not see how either OFQUAL or the SQA or indeed the direct exam boards survive this fiasco. They already looked shaky enough even before today’s announcement (and given the way England’s results are set up, I am 99% sure Williamson will have to follow suit here).

    That might well be a good thing. But it does depend on what replaces them.
    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'.
    You can see the logic all round - no harm in pushing things a bit. As I said last week the issue was the lack of a first round feedback loop.

    SQA should have asked for the results, run their statistics and gone back and said please try again as you seem to be x% wrong. And then used that second set of results.

    The fact they didn't do that and the result then looked so politically bad made this outcome virtually unavoidable.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,093
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    edited August 2020

    USA Dem VP betting -- Rice favourite and Demings third-best following @TheKitchenCabinet's post on the previous thread about the DNC speakers' schedule.

    Susan Rice: 2.4
    Kamala Harris: 2.58...

    Is too much perhaps being read into that; has Rice ever given a DNC speech before ?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    It would be genuinely interesting to know how many of Merkel's million are still in Germany, where they are housed, and how they are doing.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    In his pantomime mendacity, he managed to reveal what had been shrouded in politeness before: British weakness, European incoherence, and Chinese power. The president might have created new ways of winning and losing, but in the end he did not build a new world—he exposed the nature of the one that already existed.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/08/donald-trump-foreign-policy/615139/
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,660
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    MikeL said:

    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.

    Youy're forgetting that the results still rank people, and there are dates on the certificates.

    Either the system will revert to the pre-virus procedures and no comparable special treatment, which is rough justice of sorts but a special case (as, it must be said, so much else to do with the virus). Or the system needs to be reviewed in its approach to grading. It will be very interesting to see what the promised review in Scotland does.
    Option B.

    The point is that this has shown with brutal clarity that the people running our exam systems are morons.

    Now those of us who have worked for them - as I have - and seen their incompetence up close knew that already.

    But as of this moment, everyone knows are exams are controlled by people who cannot manage simple quality control processes or basic statistics.

    How does that affect the credibility of exams going forward? Hint - not positively.

    So I do not see how either OFQUAL or the SQA or indeed the direct exam boards survive this fiasco. They already looked shaky enough even before today’s announcement (and given the way England’s results are set up, I am 99% sure Williamson will have to follow suit here).

    That might well be a good thing. But it does depend on what replaces them.
    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'.
    You can see the logic all round - no harm in pushing things a bit. As I said last week the issue was the lack of a first round feedback loop.

    SQA should have asked for the results, run their statistics and gone back and said please try again as you seem to be x% wrong. And then used that second set of results.

    The fact they didn't do that and the result then looked so politically bad made this outcome virtually unavoidable.

    Yes, that would have been the way to do it. Have a 'chat' with all those whose estimated grades seemed to be a long way out of line (positive or negative), and find out why.

    It is odd that more than one government failed to spot this oncoming train.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:
    after COVID and working from home taking over, its only a matter of time, surely, before London has a defund the police style mayor of the type we see in US cities now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'

    The problem is we were told to predict what people were likely to get.

    Always, in any given year, statistics are brought down by students who for whatever reason bomb in the exams. So I can recall cases of somebody whose father died on the morning of the exam (and didn’t tell us) others who were ill, still others who failed to revise because they thought a good grade was in the bag, those who forgot to set the alarm so missed breakfast, etc. etc.

    But we can’t know who they are, until it happens.

    Now in my particular case because I had quite small numbers of students I did know who was and wasn’t likely to bomb, and could adjust accordingly. In a a subject with a cohort of 300, that would have been much harder.

    The problem with these randomised algorithms is they apply a statistical basis to something that has no statistical basis. You can’t use mathematics to predict which student will get drunk the night before.

    This was compounded by the fact that statistics do indicate this was a brighter than average year - after my blazing row with that idiot, I checked their SATS scores and they were 5% up on the year before. That matched with their target grades as I had them for my students.

    So we did what we were told, only to be told that OFQUAL didn’t like the result so would do something even sillier that nobody with a brain would have even attempted.

    If they had had any sense, they would have sent the results back with a ‘try again’ so at least those of us who knew them would be setting the grades, not a bunch of unintelligent failures with a misleading computer programme. Or asked for evidence. They did neither. They absolutely own this catastrophe.

    Hopefully they will all end up driving vans for Amazon rather than ruining children’s futures, but they would probably get lost leaving the warehouse so that in itself would be a poor solution.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,093
    edited August 2020

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    It would be genuinely interesting to know how many of Merkel's million are still in Germany, where they are housed, and how they are doing.
    It would. Causing much crime, overcrowding, social unease and tension? Or integrating pretty well and in the early stages of a sustained, long term contribution to an economy under pressure to support an ageing indigenous population?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,803
    ydoethur said:

    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'

    The problem is we were told to predict what people were likely to get.

    Always, in any given year, statistics are brought down by students who for whatever reason bomb in the exams. So I can recall cases of somebody whose father died on the morning of the exam (and didn’t tell us) others who were ill, still others who failed to revise because they thought a good grade was in the bag, those who forgot to set the alarm so missed breakfast, etc. etc.

    But we can’t know who they are, until it happens.

    Now in my particular case because I had quite small numbers of students I did know who was and wasn’t likely to bomb, and could adjust accordingly. In a a subject with a cohort of 300, that would have been much harder.

    The problem with these randomised algorithms is they apply a statistical basis to something that has no statistical basis. You can’t use mathematics to predict which student will get drunk the night before.

    This was compounded by the fact that statistics do indicate this was a brighter than average year - after my blazing row with that idiot, I checked their SATS scores and they were 5% up on the year before. That matched with their target grades as I had them for my students.

    So we did what we were told, only to be told that OFQUAL didn’t like the result so would do something even sillier that nobody with a brain would have even attempted.

    If they had had any sense, they would have sent the results back with a ‘try again’ so at least those of us who knew them would be setting the grades, not a bunch of unintelligent failures with a misleading computer programme. Or asked for evidence. They did neither. They absolutely own this catastrophe.

    Hopefully they will all end up driving vans for Amazon rather than ruining children’s futures, but they would probably get lost leaving the warehouse so that in itself would be a poor solution.
    What I don't understand is this - were Ofqual really comparing year on year small sample sizes of maybe 10 or fewer?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    It would be genuinely interesting to know how many of Merkel's million are still in Germany, where they are housed, and how they are doing.
    It would. Causing much crime, overcrowding, social unease and tension? Or integrating pretty well and in the early stages of a sustained, long term contribution to an economy under pressure to support an ageing indigenous population?
    A German acquaintance of mine got involved in teaching at least one of the migrants the language but I never did ask her how everything went.

    She is a single woman in here fifties and so all may not have been what it seemed!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    edited August 2020
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage.
    This is going to be a motorway pileup that undermined a mainline bridge, causing four trains to plummet to destruction on the wreckage, before a Boeing 747 crashed on the confusion, topped off by a series of nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles.

    It is going to be awful beyond belief.
    But if the U turn has happened there seems to be less need for appeals anyway? Or am I missing something?
    No sign of any u-turn for England. Only Scotland so far.
    Be reasonable, they need to actually announce results before they can u-turn on them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    edited August 2020
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'

    The problem is we were told to predict what people were likely to get.

    Always, in any given year, statistics are brought down by students who for whatever reason bomb in the exams. So I can recall cases of somebody whose father died on the morning of the exam (and didn’t tell us) others who were ill, still others who failed to revise because they thought a good grade was in the bag, those who forgot to set the alarm so missed breakfast, etc. etc.

    But we can’t know who they are, until it happens.

    Now in my particular case because I had quite small numbers of students I did know who was and wasn’t likely to bomb, and could adjust accordingly. In a a subject with a cohort of 300, that would have been much harder.

    The problem with these randomised algorithms is they apply a statistical basis to something that has no statistical basis. You can’t use mathematics to predict which student will get drunk the night before.

    This was compounded by the fact that statistics do indicate this was a brighter than average year - after my blazing row with that idiot, I checked their SATS scores and they were 5% up on the year before. That matched with their target grades as I had them for my students.

    So we did what we were told, only to be told that OFQUAL didn’t like the result so would do something even sillier that nobody with a brain would have even attempted.

    If they had had any sense, they would have sent the results back with a ‘try again’ so at least those of us who knew them would be setting the grades, not a bunch of unintelligent failures with a misleading computer programme. Or asked for evidence. They did neither. They absolutely own this catastrophe.

    Hopefully they will all end up driving vans for Amazon rather than ruining children’s futures, but they would probably get lost leaving the warehouse so that in itself would be a poor solution.
    What I don't understand is this - were Ofqual really comparing year on year small sample sizes of maybe 10 or fewer?
    No. Only of 15 or more. 5-15 was a mixture, 4 or fewer teacher grades only.*

    But as they could only realistically compare with one year, it wasn’t even worth the effort of trying statistical modelling even if it hadn’t been invalid for other reasons, frankly.

    *According to whistleblowers. OFQUAL have issued denials but they’re all over the place on them. I believe the whistleblowers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    HYUFD said:
    Better for the Tories that they lose in the first round as Khan gets 50%, or that it goes to the second round? It could just increase the difference between them and Labour.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,786
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    It would be genuinely interesting to know how many of Merkel's million are still in Germany, where they are housed, and how they are doing.
    It would. Causing much crime, overcrowding, social unease and tension? Or integrating pretty well and in the early stages of a sustained, long term contribution to an economy under pressure to support an ageing indigenous population?
    Or in Luton.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,290
    Interesting to see the impact on the next round of Scottish polling. This seems to be the first major Sturgeon/SNP blunder for some time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    DavidL said:

    If you debase a currency, it doesn't buy you any more than it would have done before.

    That's the really shocking thing about this fiasco. Everyone is focusing on these people whose results were marked down, no one is focusing on every child in Scotland who have been robbed today of the value of their certificates.
    Perhaps that will come in time. In the short term, at the least, it silences those with the loudest grievances, which is likely why England will presumably do the same.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,660
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'

    The problem is we were told to predict what people were likely to get.

    Always, in any given year, statistics are brought down by students who for whatever reason bomb in the exams. So I can recall cases of somebody whose father died on the morning of the exam (and didn’t tell us) others who were ill, still others who failed to revise because they thought a good grade was in the bag, those who forgot to set the alarm so missed breakfast, etc. etc.

    But we can’t know who they are, until it happens.

    Now in my particular case because I had quite small numbers of students I did know who was and wasn’t likely to bomb, and could adjust accordingly. In a a subject with a cohort of 300, that would have been much harder.

    The problem with these randomised algorithms is they apply a statistical basis to something that has no statistical basis. You can’t use mathematics to predict which student will get drunk the night before.

    This was compounded by the fact that statistics do indicate this was a brighter than average year - after my blazing row with that idiot, I checked their SATS scores and they were 5% up on the year before. That matched with their target grades as I had them for my students.

    So we did what we were told, only to be told that OFQUAL didn’t like the result so would do something even sillier that nobody with a brain would have even attempted.

    If they had had any sense, they would have sent the results back with a ‘try again’ so at least those of us who knew them would be setting the grades, not a bunch of unintelligent failures with a misleading computer programme. Or asked for evidence. They did neither. They absolutely own this catastrophe.

    Hopefully they will all end up driving vans for Amazon rather than ruining children’s futures, but they would probably get lost leaving the warehouse so that in itself would be a poor solution.
    So, if you were to take results from the 'multiverse', you were asked for the mode for each pupil whereas the exam board really wanted the mean.

    And yes (as Eek also pointed out), a 'try again' or 'are you sure?' would have been the obvious thing to do.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    JohnO said:

    Interesting to see the impact on the next round of Scottish polling. This seems to be the first major Sturgeon/SNP blunder for some time.

    Blunders only tend to help if there is a willingness to reward another side. That may prove trickier, particularly as it'll look no better over the border.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,149
    Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP betting -- Rice favourite and Demings third-best following @TheKitchenCabinet's post on the previous thread about the DNC speakers' schedule.

    Susan Rice: 2.4
    Kamala Harris: 2.58...

    Is too much perhaps being read into that; has Rice ever given a DNC speech before ?
    I don't think so, if anything Harris' price hasn't perhaps headed out as much as it should have. She's probably got the steer that she isn't the VP candidate so is speaking Thursday.
    It might not mean anything but alternatively it might mean something.
    The unlisted outsider speakers might be the best value of all but laying Harris was a simpler plan for me.
    As it's all at Biden's whims the stakes for me are way less than on the main event.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,747
    edited August 2020
    Data late due to technical difficulties, could indicate they are doing the big update to bring reporting in line with the other home nations and Europe and putting a 28 day recovery filter on deaths.
  • kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage.
    This is going to be a motorway pileup that undermined a mainline bridge, causing four trains to plummet to destruction on the wreckage, before a Boeing 747 crashed on the confusion, topped off by a series of nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles.

    It is going to be awful beyond belief.
    But if the U turn has happened there seems to be less need for appeals anyway? Or am I missing something?
    No sign of any u-turn for England. Only Scotland so far.
    Be reasonable, they need to actually announce results before they can u-turn on them.
    Schools find out tomorrow, although we don’t get the UCAS decisions until after 7am on Thursday, so we have to guess how bad it is.
  • kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    Merkel was neither brace nor principled. Brave and principled would have been saying Germany would be taking more migrants and offering safe transport to get there. She took the path of least resistance instead and created a darkly Darwinian experiment of survival of the fittest that led to many deaths with no safe transit.

    Cameron was brave and principled.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172
    MaxPB said:

    Data late due to technical difficulties, could indicate they are doing the big update to bring reporting in line with the other home nations and Europe and putting a 28 day recovery filter on deaths.

    That was my thoughts....

    I hope so. And hope they will start the API feed, as well
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    So, if you were to take results from the 'multiverse', you were asked for the mode for each pupil whereas the exam board really wanted the mean.

    And yes (as Eek also pointed out), a 'try again' or 'are you sure?' would have been the obvious thing to do.

    Well, that’s what it seems they wanted.

    I think the real issue is that they don’t know what they wanted and didn’t understand what might work.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172
    I am expecting an update from the German Health Ministry -

    "In related news, water is wet"
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    JohnO said:

    Interesting to see the impact on the next round of Scottish polling. This seems to be the first major Sturgeon/SNP blunder for some time.

    that has cut through. There have been a cavalcade of major blunders before this - but so far they have defied gravity.

    Perhaps buying off 2020's cohort will save their skin. After all the (likely) collapse in grades in 2021 will be after the Holyrood election.

  • Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP betting -- Rice favourite and Demings third-best following @TheKitchenCabinet's post on the previous thread about the DNC speakers' schedule.

    Susan Rice: 2.4
    Kamala Harris: 2.58...

    Is too much perhaps being read into that; has Rice ever given a DNC speech before ?
    I don't think so, if anything Harris' price hasn't perhaps headed out as much as it should have. She's probably got the steer that she isn't the VP candidate so is speaking Thursday.
    It might not mean anything but alternatively it might mean something.
    The unlisted outsider speakers might be the best value of all but laying Harris was a simpler plan for me.
    As it's all at Biden's whims the stakes for me are way less than on the main event.
    I think Harris being a speaker on Thursday is a key indicator she is not the VP pick. There is always a risk of reading too much into things but, FWIW, I am with Pulpstar.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,809
    Its not my country of course (but plenty comment on USA policy so I think I can here) but the Scottish exam decision today is a disgrace- Whatever the technical rights or wrongs ,politicians should not have this power to retrospectively alter grades .Politicains ultimately make decisions to get or stay elected , its shameful they have done that in this case and altered grades for utlimately this reason
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    edited August 2020

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    Merkel was neither brace nor principled. Brave and principled would have been saying Germany would be taking more migrants and offering safe transport to get there. She took the path of least resistance instead and created a darkly Darwinian experiment of survival of the fittest that led to many deaths with no safe transit.

    Cameron was brave and principled.
    I think it rather telling, whether one supports Merkel's intentions or their consequences or not, that apparently cooperation between nations which is usually stated to be so vital went right out the window and it was deemed ok to act unilaterally in the way she did.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    JohnO said:

    Interesting to see the impact on the next round of Scottish polling. This seems to be the first major Sturgeon/SNP blunder for some time.

    that has cut through. There have been a cavalcade of major blunders before this - but so far they have defied gravity.

    Perhaps buying off 2020's cohort will save their skin. After all the (likely) collapse in grades in 2021 will be after the Holyrood election.

    If they go ahead. There’s no certainty this pandemic will be over or at least under control in time for that.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    There was a rather horrifying survey done of voting intentions among various groups in France, a while back.. The border/immigation services were staggeringly FN....
  • Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP betting -- Rice favourite and Demings third-best following @TheKitchenCabinet's post on the previous thread about the DNC speakers' schedule.

    Susan Rice: 2.4
    Kamala Harris: 2.58...

    Is too much perhaps being read into that; has Rice ever given a DNC speech before ?
    I've no idea. Nor do I see why someone cannot give two speeches. Stacey Abrams is also not a listed speaker, so far as I could see, to name another who was once tipped for the nomination. However, meaningful or not, it has certainly shifted the market.

    I'd guess the next sign will come from American airport-watchers reporting Secret Service agents descending on the home of Rice, Harris or whoever. I'd be grateful if someone can just tell us when Biden's press conferences are scheduled, as no doubt one will be used to make this announcement.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172

    MaxPB said:

    Data late due to technical difficulties, could indicate they are doing the big update to bring reporting in line with the other home nations and Europe and putting a 28 day recovery filter on deaths.

    That was my thoughts....

    I hope so. And hope they will start the API feed, as well
    "Owing to technical difficulties, the data will not be updated until 12 August 2020."
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,747

    MaxPB said:

    Data late due to technical difficulties, could indicate they are doing the big update to bring reporting in line with the other home nations and Europe and putting a 28 day recovery filter on deaths.

    That was my thoughts....

    I hope so. And hope they will start the API feed, as well
    "Owing to technical difficulties, the data will not be updated until 12 August 2020."
    Yes, I think it must be putting the 28 day filter in place but that shouldn't be very difficult.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited August 2020
    Maybe they asked a focus group instead?

    https://twitter.com/oscwilliams/status/1293216333807652865?s=20

    Mind you, p*ssing off the MoD might mean it's a good idea....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Data late due to technical difficulties, could indicate they are doing the big update to bring reporting in line with the other home nations and Europe and putting a 28 day recovery filter on deaths.

    That was my thoughts....

    I hope so. And hope they will start the API feed, as well
    "Owing to technical difficulties, the data will not be updated until 12 August 2020."
    Yes, I think it must be putting the 28 day filter in place but that shouldn't be very difficult.
    I think the problem is the discontinuity in the data - the political fallout for an overnight drop in the numbers will be huge.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172

    Maybe they asked a focus group instead?

    https://twitter.com/oscwilliams/status/1293216333807652865?s=20

    Mind you, p*ssing off the MoD might mean it's a good idea....

    One thing to be aware of - various groups were expecting a "proper" zillion pound project to replace Galileo.

    Think the fury over the Spearfish torpedo upgrade multiplied by 3 orders of magnitude.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346

    ydoethur said:

    The usual way of things is that the replacement has a different name but is just as competent as the old organisation.

    They were in an impossible situation though. If the estimated results had looked anything like normal it would have been easier to look the other way.

    Many teachers must have known they were over-estimating, but presumably didn't want to harm anyone's chances 'just in case'

    The problem is we were told to predict what people were likely to get.

    Always, in any given year, statistics are brought down by students who for whatever reason bomb in the exams. So I can recall cases of somebody whose father died on the morning of the exam (and didn’t tell us) others who were ill, still others who failed to revise because they thought a good grade was in the bag, those who forgot to set the alarm so missed breakfast, etc. etc.

    But we can’t know who they are, until it happens.

    Now in my particular case because I had quite small numbers of students I did know who was and wasn’t likely to bomb, and could adjust accordingly. In a a subject with a cohort of 300, that would have been much harder.

    The problem with these randomised algorithms is they apply a statistical basis to something that has no statistical basis. You can’t use mathematics to predict which student will get drunk the night before.

    This was compounded by the fact that statistics do indicate this was a brighter than average year - after my blazing row with that idiot, I checked their SATS scores and they were 5% up on the year before. That matched with their target grades as I had them for my students.

    So we did what we were told, only to be told that OFQUAL didn’t like the result so would do something even sillier that nobody with a brain would have even attempted.

    If they had had any sense, they would have sent the results back with a ‘try again’ so at least those of us who knew them would be setting the grades, not a bunch of unintelligent failures with a misleading computer programme. Or asked for evidence. They did neither. They absolutely own this catastrophe.

    Hopefully they will all end up driving vans for Amazon rather than ruining children’s futures, but they would probably get lost leaving the warehouse so that in itself would be a poor solution.
    So, if you were to take results from the 'multiverse', you were asked for the mode for each pupil whereas the exam board really wanted the mean.

    And yes (as Eek also pointed out), a 'try again' or 'are you sure?' would have been the obvious thing to do.

    https://twitter.com/MrMcEnaney/status/1293194973299515396
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The US has just stripped Hong Kong of any export privileges:

    imported goods produced in Hong Kong, such goods may no longer be marked to indicate “Hong Kong” as their origin, but must be marked to indicate “China.”

    https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/08/11/2020-17599/country-of-origin-marking-of-products-of-hong-kong

    This means any "China" tariffs automatically apply to them. More of a psychological than financial blow, but telling just the same.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,825
    edited August 2020

    I am expecting an update from the German Health Ministry -

    "In related news, water is wet"
    Russia has more doctors per capita than most European countries, including "our NHS" so I'd imagine this is not a true roll-out as heralded but more a clinical trial by any other name, announced like this in order to give Vladimir Putin bragging rights if it works, and not kill too many Russians if not.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664
    Veep betting. Rice at her lowest since I started following the price closely. 2.68
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664
    Crossover. Rice 2.32
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,664
    edited August 2020
    Have I missed veep news?

    Edit: Ah, I see I behind the times on this thread and has already been debated.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,091
    edited August 2020
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Its been claimed that France and Germany accept many more seekers than the UK though, so these are the ones presumably who are not successful in their applications.....???

    Germany and France each receive three times or more the number of applications as the UK.
    Germany accepts a similar percentage of applicants to us (somewhere around half), and France around a third of applicants.
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics#Main_countries_of_destination:_Germany.2C_France_and_Spain
    We have refugee charities etc trying to make it penis size competition, but it is a policy far more rational and humane to invest heavily in stabilising the source countries and helping those countries retain and benefit from the skills of those economic migrants.

    Which is what we have done for many years to a far greater extent than anyone else in Europe - out famous international development operation. Only the small scandi countries are in the same league iirc.

    And we should be proud of that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005

    Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP betting -- Rice favourite and Demings third-best following @TheKitchenCabinet's post on the previous thread about the DNC speakers' schedule.

    Susan Rice: 2.4
    Kamala Harris: 2.58...

    Is too much perhaps being read into that; has Rice ever given a DNC speech before ?
    I've no idea. Nor do I see why someone cannot give two speeches....
    Me either.
    A google search failed to turn up a Rice DNC speech, which wasn't entirely a surprise.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172

    I am expecting an update from the German Health Ministry -

    "In related news, water is wet"
    Russia has more doctors per capita than most European countries, including "our NHS" so I'd imagine this is not a true roll-out as heralded but more a clinical trial by any other name, announced like this in order to give Vladimir Putin bragging rights if it works, and not kill too many Russians if not.
    The problem is that the number of doctors in Russia is falling....

    Mostly out of windows, I understand.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ydoethur said:

    JohnO said:

    Interesting to see the impact on the next round of Scottish polling. This seems to be the first major Sturgeon/SNP blunder for some time.

    that has cut through. There have been a cavalcade of major blunders before this - but so far they have defied gravity.

    Perhaps buying off 2020's cohort will save their skin. After all the (likely) collapse in grades in 2021 will be after the Holyrood election.

    If they go ahead. There’s no certainty this pandemic will be over or at least under control in time for that.
    Guernsey CMO reckons it will be with us for "decades".
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,091
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage.
    This is going to be a motorway pileup that undermined a mainline bridge, causing four trains to plummet to destruction on the wreckage, before a Boeing 747 crashed on the confusion, topped off by a series of nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles.

    It is going to be awful beyond belief.
    But if the U turn has happened there seems to be less need for appeals anyway? Or am I missing something?
    No sign of any u-turn for England. Only Scotland so far.
    Be reasonable, they need to actually announce results before they can u-turn on them.
    I wonder if they are awake enough to learn from the Scottish Gov cockup.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    I am expecting an update from the German Health Ministry -

    "In related news, water is wet"
    Russia has more doctors per capita than most European countries, including "our NHS" so I'd imagine this is not a true roll-out as heralded but more a clinical trial by any other name, announced like this in order to give Vladimir Putin bragging rights if it works, and not kill too many Russians if not.
    It will be a bit unfortunate if it kills Doctors....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,747

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Data late due to technical difficulties, could indicate they are doing the big update to bring reporting in line with the other home nations and Europe and putting a 28 day recovery filter on deaths.

    That was my thoughts....

    I hope so. And hope they will start the API feed, as well
    "Owing to technical difficulties, the data will not be updated until 12 August 2020."
    Yes, I think it must be putting the 28 day filter in place but that shouldn't be very difficult.
    I think the problem is the discontinuity in the data - the political fallout for an overnight drop in the numbers will be huge.
    Yes, I've heard a 5k drop in the headline figure is about what to expect and daily figures dropping to around 20 per day for all settings by event date rather than the ~50 or so at the moment.
  • https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1293204504171753482

    New YouGov.

    6 point lead.

    Tory dropping
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,091
    edited August 2020
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    Merkel was neither brace nor principled. Brave and principled would have been saying Germany would be taking more migrants and offering safe transport to get there. She took the path of least resistance instead and created a darkly Darwinian experiment of survival of the fittest that led to many deaths with no safe transit.

    Cameron was brave and principled.
    I think it rather telling, whether one supports Merkel's intentions or their consequences or not, that apparently cooperation between nations which is usually stated to be so vital went right out the window and it was deemed ok to act unilaterally in the way she did.
    I think PT is absolutely correct on this one. Merkel's behaviour was despicable.

    One point not noted was that Germany at the time had a shrinking population and a lot empty homes (unlike the UK) so had many facilities available.

    This was 2014:

    image
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,005
    The Chinese have published data of the PII trial (the Russians have yet to publish anything).

    Immunogenicity and Safety of a SARS-CoV-2 Inactivated Vaccine in Healthy Adults Aged 18-59 years: Report of the Randomized, Double-blind, and Placebo-controlled Phase 2 Clinical Trial
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.31.20161216v1.full.pdf

    Seroconversion, with the development of neutralising antibodies to the virus, is up to 90%, which is a significant improvement on PI.

    They claim an improved manufacturing process:
    ...Electron microscopic examination of the samples further verified that the average number of spikes per virion of the viral sample used in phase 2 trial was almost double to those used in phase 1 trial (Fig. 3B). These observations indicated that CoronaVac used in phase 2 trial contained more bona fide immunogens, which explains its better protective immune responses, highlighting the importance of developing an optimum manufacturing process..
  • https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1293204504171753482

    New YouGov.

    6 point lead.

    Tory dropping

    As far as I know that is not a new poll
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage.
    This is going to be a motorway pileup that undermined a mainline bridge, causing four trains to plummet to destruction on the wreckage, before a Boeing 747 crashed on the confusion, topped off by a series of nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles.

    It is going to be awful beyond belief.
    But if the U turn has happened there seems to be less need for appeals anyway? Or am I missing something?
    No sign of any u-turn for England. Only Scotland so far.
    Be reasonable, they need to actually announce results before they can u-turn on them.
    I wonder if they are awake enough to learn from the Scottish Gov cockup.
    I don't think they have time. I'd suspect the Scottish government decision has made it much more difficult than if they were sticking to their guns, since the pressure to u-turn will be immense, and that Scotland already did wand why have they not reacted similarly right away will be questioned.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    edited August 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    So they’re taking Swinney’s position of this morning?

    Give it twelve hours...
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    So they’re taking Swinney’s position of this morning?

    Give it twelve hours...
    How is he still in a job
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    Merkel was neither brace nor principled. Brave and principled would have been saying Germany would be taking more migrants and offering safe transport to get there. She took the path of least resistance instead and created a darkly Darwinian experiment of survival of the fittest that led to many deaths with no safe transit.

    Cameron was brave and principled.
    I think it rather telling, whether one supports Merkel's intentions or their consequences or not, that apparently cooperation between nations which is usually stated to be so vital went right out the window and it was deemed ok to act unilaterally in the way she did.
    I think PT is absolutely correct on this one. Merkel's behaviour was despicable.

    One point not noted was that Germany at the time had a shrinking population and a lot empty homes (unlike the UK) so had many facilities available.

    This was 2014:

    image
    I think it pretty reasonable to posit that it was not pure moral goodness that lay behind the decision, as is often implied, and I do think the impacts on other places which had not participated in the decision should be noted given that acting unilaterally is supposedly frowned upon, often by the same people praising Merkel's decision.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,172
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Data late due to technical difficulties, could indicate they are doing the big update to bring reporting in line with the other home nations and Europe and putting a 28 day recovery filter on deaths.

    That was my thoughts....

    I hope so. And hope they will start the API feed, as well
    "Owing to technical difficulties, the data will not be updated until 12 August 2020."
    Yes, I think it must be putting the 28 day filter in place but that shouldn't be very difficult.
    I think the problem is the discontinuity in the data - the political fallout for an overnight drop in the numbers will be huge.
    Yes, I've heard a 5k drop in the headline figure is about what to expect and daily figures dropping to around 20 per day for all settings by event date rather than the ~50 or so at the moment.
    That'll be fun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0UNxlTYADI

    I should imagine that there will be some attempt to prevent the backdating on the grounds of upsetting too many people.

    Do you remember the time that John Major destroyed the NHS* by introducing published stats on surgical outcomes? The eventual compromise was that no back dated data would be published. A number of senior and rather old surgeons gave up operating, just before the stats were brought in**.

    *8th time the Tories destroyed the NHS since 79, I believe
    **A med student friend of mine told me that one Prof was nicknamed "Killer". He thought this was unfair, since he didn't kill people. Just crippled them for life.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,026
    Scott_xP said:
    The word 'current' is a very important one there.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,373
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Tell me something I don't know.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,346
    At risk of annoying @BluestBlue this article compares exam results to Cummings’ Barnard Castle debacle.

    https://www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-scots-grade-u-turn-places-huge-pressure-williamson

    Hard to disagree with its conclusion even if Mary Bousted is an utter fool.
This discussion has been closed.