politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How long before Johnson’s “should” wear masks become a legal r

Probably after he gets slapped around at PMQs

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

https://twitter.com/mfletchertimes/status/1282668975793610753

Cummings will decide this, I think.

Pulpstar said:

Malmesbury said:

NHS England Hospital data is out -

Headline - 11 - another record low
7 Days - 9
Yesterday - 1

As ever - Monday is in the weekend reporting shadow. Last 3-5 days will subject to revision. last 5 days included for completness

I don't think the daily death numbers of regions are particularly individually useful now for any sort of "r" calculation (Which is great !). Week to week trends should be better.

My personal opinion - R is a statistical tool.

We don't have enough numbers here to do statistics except in a very crude, broad sense.

I think the government can also deliver real benefits to mask wearing in shops, it would allow the end of queueing up to get in as we wouldn't need the same stringent capacity rules.

That's got to be the real goal of getting everyone to wear masks, shops could ease a lot of the indoor restrictions and give the economy another boost.

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Islamification of the UK continues as the law demands we have to cover our faces.

Surprised Tommy Robinson isn’t all over this.

Bad news for lip-readers. Boris must hate deaf people.

Cyclefree said:

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

Cameron and Osborne and May and Johnson all pushed for closer ties with China. The Tories have been in power for the last decade. There is no sign during that time of them having even the slightest realistic assessment of what China is up to nor of the issues which would inevitably arise by allowing them to extend their influence in Britain.

Again, I'm not sure that you can pin the blame on just one party or one country. Look at the whole of Europe, every party has been captured by this issue, Obama was in thrall to China and one of Trump's only redeeming qualities has been taking the fight to them on trade and their malign global influence. It was galling when Merkel got up on stage with Xi and denounced the US.

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

It's worth noting that if Huawei gets barred this time around it won't be because of their software and systems having flaws or backdoors — Huawei have already been cleared on that basis*, and properly scrutinised unlike the alternatives everyone is so keen to use — but because they are no longer a suitable supplier for critical national infrastructure due to the US govnerment doing everything it can to stop Huawei's telecoms business in its tracks.

We will end up paying more for worse hardware and systems, that have had less scrutiny, and we will have fewer baskets for out critical national infrastucture eggs as will be reduced to using just two key suppliers. We will be exclusively buying kit that the US government, the world's largest surveillance power, is only too happy for us to use.

All of this will be presented as improving national security, but it is nothing of the sort, and will almost certainly reduce security.

It's a right bloody mess we and most other nations have gotten into.

* Somewhat crappy software engineering, but not really any worse than expected.

Malmesbury said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Islamification of the UK continues as the law demands we have to cover our faces.

Surprised Tommy Robinson isn’t all over this.

Bad news for lip-readers. Boris must hate deaf people.

As it happens, there is a specific exemption for lip-readers in the rules on usage of masks on public transport.

Prsesumably in the sense of having a companion sans mask - effectively an interpreter? Can't see how else it could work. Anbd that does seem to be the case.

https://actiononhearingloss.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/latest-press-releases/charity-celebrates-win-on-government-guidance-for-mandatory-face-coverings-on-public-transport-for-those-who-lip-read/

But somer masks have been made witdh clear windows - there is no obvious story on what used to be RNID and is now Action on Hearing Loss, but see this

https://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/face-mask-covering-transparent-deaf-clear-plastic-coronavirus-a9569331.html

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

It's worth noting that if Huawei gets barred this time around it won't be because of their software and systems having flaws or backdoors — Huawei have already been cleared on that basis*, and properly scrutinised unlike the alternatives everyone is so keen to use — but because they are no longer a suitable supplier for critical national infrastructure due to the US govnerment doing everything it can to stop Huawei's telecoms business in its tracks.

We will end up paying more for worse hardware and systems, that have had less scrutiny, and we will have fewer baskets for out critical national infrastucture eggs as will be reduced to using just two key suppliers. We will be exclusively buying kit that the US government, the world's largest surveillance power, is only too happy for us to use.

All of this will be presented as improving national security, but it is nothing of the sort, and will almost certainly reduce security.

It's a right bloody mess we and most other nations have gotten into.

* Somewhat crappy software engineering, but not really any worse than expected.

It's not US chips, it's chips derived from US technology. It means they can't use TSMC foundries or TSMC will face sanctions from the US government. TSMC aren't a US company, however.

Fysics_Teacher said:

Malmesbury said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Islamification of the UK continues as the law demands we have to cover our faces.

Surprised Tommy Robinson isn’t all over this.

Bad news for lip-readers. Boris must hate deaf people.

As it happens, there is a specific exemption for lip-readers in the rules on usage of masks on public transport.

How does that work? The lip-reader is not prevented from reading lips by their mask but by everyone else’s.

https://actiononhearingloss.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/latest-press-releases/charity-celebrates-win-on-government-guidance-for-mandatory-face-coverings-on-public-transport-for-those-who-lip-read/

MarqueeMark said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

Theresa May approved the decision for the French and the Chinese to build a nuclear facility on the banks of the River Severn.

The British taxpayer will have to fork out £34 billion for the privilege. There are many people with very many questions to answer about what has gone on in our external relations.

For a simple one - the tariff rules on electronic components vs complete devices.

I was told by civil servants under several different governments that to equalise the situation would "upset the Chinese". Which was apparently KOD to any change.

Any mask recommendations?

Tried wearing one the other day. Apart from comedy condensation (managed to fiddle with it a bit to remedy that) found it pretty uncomfortable. Breathing wasn't ideal. And breathing's one of my favourite things.

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

It is just the Opium Wars reversed. Then we were the dominant world power, now they are one of two world powers. We need their money, technology and consumer goods.

We just have to get used to being the supplicant. The balance of power has reversed.

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

It is just the Opium Wars reversed. Then we were the dominant world power, now they are one of two world powers. We need their money, technology and consumer goods.

We just have to get used to being the supplicant. The balance of power has reversed.

BiB - We really don't.

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

Cameron and Osborne and May and Johnson all pushed for closer ties with China. The Tories have been in power for the last decade. There is no sign during that time of them having even the slightest realistic assessment of what China is up to nor of the issues which would inevitably arise by allowing them to extend their influence in Britain.

Again, I'm not sure that you can pin the blame on just one party or one country. Look at the whole of Europe, every party has been captured by this issue, Obama was in thrall to China and one of Trump's only redeeming qualities has been taking the fight to them on trade and their malign global influence. It was galling when Merkel got up on stage with Xi and denounced the US.

And don't forget Alex Salmond's panda-ing to China.

Dr. Foxy, that's a perspective with which I cannot agree. It's so... blasé.

This is more akin to a second Cold War and we should treat it as such, instead of just shrugging and saying "Yeah, Britain threw its weight around in the past so I guess this is ok."

It isn't.

Those so upset about the British Empire seem remarkably unconcerned by concentration camps and the territorial grabbing of half the South China Sea.

That's not happening centuries ago to men long dead, it's happening right now. As might military action in the area. The whole of Western politics have been shockingly complacent.

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1282668779575615494

Anymore ?
It's always been shit.

Cyclefree said:

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

Cameron and Osborne and May and Johnson all pushed for closer ties with China. The Tories have been in power for the last decade. There is no sign during that time of them having even the slightest realistic assessment of what China is up to nor of the issues which would inevitably arise by allowing them to extend their influence in Britain.

We can't keep living beyond our means without China. It's an integral part of the model we have - for better or worse - embraced for a long time now.

MaxPB said:

I think the government can also deliver real benefits to mask wearing in shops, it would allow the end of queueing up to get in as we wouldn't need the same stringent capacity rules.

That's got to be the real goal of getting everyone to wear masks, shops could ease a lot of the indoor restrictions and give the economy another boost.

That makes a lot of sense. I wore a mask for the first time today for a haircut. Can't say I enjoyed the hot breath coming back at me, but I think the compromise is worth it.

Malmesbury said:

Cyclefree said:

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

It was Blair who really pushed China - remember the New Labour lawyers using ancient bylaws involving royal parks, so that the protestors (re Tibet) could be arrested for holding up signs.

So that the Chinese premiere wouldn't get offended.

The following governments have followed the rush, around the world, to give the Chinese what they wanted.

Cameron and Osborne and May and Johnson all pushed for closer ties with China. The Tories have been in power for the last decade. There is no sign during that time of them having even the slightest realistic assessment of what China is up to nor of the issues which would inevitably arise by allowing them to extend their influence in Britain.

Anyone thinking about China not being a besty was written off as "problematic", "xenophobic" etc.

The joys of group think and un-discusable problems.

As Hermann Kahn pointed out, when a problem is big enough and inconvenient enough, the person raising the issue of the problem becomes *the problem*

The last country to become a global superpower happens to have military bases all over Britain. We don't have the best track record of speaking truth to power.

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Islamification of the UK continues as the law demands we have to cover our faces.

Surprised Tommy Robinson isn’t all over this.

Masking is culturally Asian rather than Islamic.

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Islamification of the UK continues as the law demands we have to cover our faces.

Surprised Tommy Robinson isn’t all over this.

Masking is culturally Asian rather than Islamic.

It was a burqa joke, I think...

glw said:

MaxPB said:

It's not US chips, it's chips derived from US technology. It means they can't use TSMC foundries or TSMC will face sanctions from the US government. TSMC aren't a US company, however.

America is going after the whole spectrum of semiconductor technologies that are relevant to Huawei's business, from fabs to IP licensing, from EDA tools to chips, from US companies and companies that do business with the US (which is basically everyone).

Such zero sum games are potentially very dangerous, though.

Two thirds of the world's advanced semiconductor manufacturing are based very close indeed to China.
A serious national security worry for all western leaders is what might happen should China seize Taiwan - for now an unlikely scenario, but by no means impossible, and growing more possible every year.

Without Taiwanese fab capacity, the fallback is... S Korea.

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

I think the government can also deliver real benefits to mask wearing in shops, it would allow the end of queueing up to get in as we wouldn't need the same stringent capacity rules.

That's got to be the real goal of getting everyone to wear masks, shops could ease a lot of the indoor restrictions and give the economy another boost.

That makes a lot of sense. I wore a mask for the first time today for a haircut. Can't say I enjoyed the hot breath coming back at me...

Now you know how everyone else feels about it....

Morris_Dancer said:

Dr. Foxy, that's a perspective with which I cannot agree. It's so... blasé.

This is more akin to a second Cold War and we should treat it as such, instead of just shrugging and saying "Yeah, Britain threw its weight around in the past so I guess this is ok."

It isn't.

Those so upset about the British Empire seem remarkably unconcerned by concentration camps and the territorial grabbing of half the South China Sea.

That's not happening centuries ago to men long dead, it's happening right now. As might military action in the area. The whole of Western politics have been shockingly complacent.

Nah. We chummed up with China after Tianamen Square, indeed handed over Hong Kong to them a few years later. We knew what they were like.

Sure, I dont like China's repression of the Uigars, but there is nothing that we can really do about it apart from a bit of diplomatic pressure. That's Realpolitik.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Islamification of the UK continues as the law demands we have to cover our faces.

Surprised Tommy Robinson isn’t all over this.

Bad news for lip-readers. Boris must hate deaf people.

A friend of mine is deaf and she’s reliant on seeing the other person’s lips move, she’s so depressed about this.

But if the science shows it reduces the risks of transmission then we should do it.

As I said at the start of the pandemic, there’s no good options, only least bad ones, until we have a vaccine.

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1282668779575615494

Realize you mean well - BUT would you please stop polluting PB with DT tweets! Easy enough to find this garbage without having it dumped in our little garden reasoned discourse!

Yes agree with @logical_song. Scanning down PB and seeing relevant tweets saves an awful lot of time.

So (everyone) keeeeeeep tweeting (strictly: pasting relevant tweets to PB).

Nigelb said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

I think the government can also deliver real benefits to mask wearing in shops, it would allow the end of queueing up to get in as we wouldn't need the same stringent capacity rules.

That's got to be the real goal of getting everyone to wear masks, shops could ease a lot of the indoor restrictions and give the economy another boost.

That makes a lot of sense. I wore a mask for the first time today for a haircut. Can't say I enjoyed the hot breath coming back at me...

Now you know how everyone else feels about it....

And I thought we got on so well Nigel.

MarqueeMark said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

Theresa May approved the decision for the French and the Chinese to build a nuclear facility on the banks of the River Severn.

The British taxpayer will have to fork out £34 billion for the privilege. There are many people with very many questions to answer about what has gone on in our external relations.

If the British government had financed it in the first place, it might already have been built (and saved maybe £10bn in financing costs over the lifetime of the project).

The only reason the Chinese are involved (and that is only in the financing of the project, I think ?) is that EDF couldn't finance it themselves.
Shades of Gordon Brown's off balance sheet financing.

logical_song said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1282668779575615494

Realize you mean well - BUT would you please stop polluting PB with DT tweets! Easy enough to find this garbage without having it dumped in our little garden reasoned discourse!

Not sure I agree. Sometimes PB is the best place to get news from all sources in one spot.
Say what you like about Trump, he can't be ignored - at least not until after November or more likely January.

And given the sheer number of the orange blimp's tweets, Scott is being fairly selective...

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://news.sky.com/story/starmers-first-100-days-labour-leader-seen-as-clean-break-from-corbyn-poll-12027350

Very good poll for Keir

Like Blair, Starmer needs to change the name to indicate the difference between old and new Labour, but not be associated with Blair. New, New Labour?

Nigelb said:

kjh said:

Nigelb said:

kjh said:

MaxPB said:

I think the government can also deliver real benefits to mask wearing in shops, it would allow the end of queueing up to get in as we wouldn't need the same stringent capacity rules.

That's got to be the real goal of getting everyone to wear masks, shops could ease a lot of the indoor restrictions and give the economy another boost.

That makes a lot of sense. I wore a mask for the first time today for a haircut. Can't say I enjoyed the hot breath coming back at me...

Now you know how everyone else feels about it....

And I thought we got on so well Nigel.

Apologies.

Not necessary; it was too good an opportunity not to take it.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Nigelb said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Also interesting that Huawei are banking on a future Labour government to reverse the current stance of removing them from UK infrastructure. This could become a real live wire for Starmer if he doesn't address it, Tories will absolutely roast him on national security and patriotism if he doesn't sign up to getting rid of them as well.

The Tories have a brass neck talking about patriotism and national security given how in bed with the Chinese they are, how it was the current PM who has invited Huawei in, the attacks on the army they are planning, their appointment of a NSA a man who know little about national security and putting Grayling in charge of the Intelligence Committee.

Huawei is an all party failure. We allowed them in during 3G which was ages ago and we allowed them to buy up a bunch of 4G IP from UK companies without challenge from 2005 onwards. I think BT's 4G network is about 65% Huawei, that decision was made well before Boris got into power. The government's position on China has been ill advised for 20 years, we've treated them as an informal ally when really they are formal enemies.

No, they weren't really formal enemies until Xi entrenched himself.
Before that, uneasy trading partners.

They've never been allies.

Yes, this needs to be emphasised: China before Xi Jinping was a very different country, one which was moving slowly but steadily towards a sort of relatively benign governance, and one which we could do business with. Under Xi it has changed completely for the worse. It's a new situation. (Something similar is true for Saudi Arabia as well).

Exactly. I used to say that since 1978 and the Third Plenum, China was like a lumbering giant moving forward through a narrow corridor. It bangs into the sides but its progress is forward.

Now it seems to have realised that it can break out of the corridor and go anywhere it damn well pleases which has not of late been forwards.

Nigelb said:

logical_song said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1282668779575615494

Realize you mean well - BUT would you please stop polluting PB with DT tweets! Easy enough to find this garbage without having it dumped in our little garden reasoned discourse!

Not sure I agree. Sometimes PB is the best place to get news from all sources in one spot.
Say what you like about Trump, he can't be ignored - at least not until after November or more likely January.

And given the sheer number of the orange blimp's tweets, Scott is being fairly selective...

Guess it's LACK of selection I'm questioning. IF The Donald tweets that he's sending USMC to Lands End to help out HM & BJ by clearing out dangerous nest of extreme Cornish nationalists (or visa versa) ok, THAT'S new.

BUT a tweet from the Twit-in-Chief merely announcing his continuing displeasure & distemper re: Fox, or SCOTUS, or Rossie O'Donnell, etc., etc., well that AIN"T news.

Logical - no hard feelings - know you mean well (the four most damning words ever uttered?) - BUT on this side of the Pacific haven't even had me morning coffee yet - so am just a wee bit grumpy!

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

logical_song said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1282668779575615494

Realize you mean well - BUT would you please stop polluting PB with DT tweets! Easy enough to find this garbage without having it dumped in our little garden reasoned discourse!

Not sure I agree. Sometimes PB is the best place to get news from all sources in one spot.
Say what you like about Trump, he can't be ignored - at least not until after November or more likely January.

Anybody who needs PB to find Trumpsky's tsunami of tweets must live a VERY sheltered life.

Anyone who actively seeks them out as an end in themselves must live a VERY ****** up life.

I'll admit that masks in shops is not a policy I'm particularly looking forward to, but I'm sort of resigned. I supported them for public transport, but I thought the idea was to allow buses and trains to run closer to capacity - when I see a bus, that doesn't seem to have happened so much.

And I have sort of liked the near silence of a large supermarket or out of town store during COVID, I've not felt threatened with infection by people ambling by at near 2m distances and being barely within contact radius for 20 seconds or so, or standing at a slightly exaggerated range having a couple of functional words with a shop assistant whilst positioning myself at an angle and pretending to be David Caruso.

I'm afraid at a personal level mask wearing will primarily make me feel less normal rather than more safe, and I'll probably go to shops even a little less than over the last few months. This is not so much a complaint about public policy direction, rather a personal preference.

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://news.sky.com/story/starmers-first-100-days-labour-leader-seen-as-clean-break-from-corbyn-poll-12027350

Very good poll for Keir

Shame he leads the Labour Party though..... It's like giving Hamilton an Alphatauri Honda. "Go on then, win some races...."

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Any mask recommendations?

Tried wearing one the other day. Apart from comedy condensation (managed to fiddle with it a bit to remedy that) found it pretty uncomfortable. Breathing wasn't ideal. And breathing's one of my favourite things.

I’ve bought a few from Hugo Boss, really easy to wear and not restricting.

https://www.hugoboss.com/uk/face-mask-with-new-season-print/hbeu50452661_410.html?cgid=23913

https://www.hugoboss.com/uk/men-face-masks/

Aren't those overly restrained for your taste ?

Like Michael Foot and his donkey jacket my fashion choices are unfairly characterised.

You shouldn't be so tough on yourself..... I'm only going by what you've previously shared.

Well my fashion choices have been described as schizophrenic by those who know me well, apparently they fall into the following categories

1) Refined elegance in my expensive bespoke suits and morning suits that makes everyone else feel like a chav

And then there’s the

2) Fucking hell did you get dressed in the dark?

Sometimes I wear a mix of both concurrently.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Any mask recommendations?

Tried wearing one the other day. Apart from comedy condensation (managed to fiddle with it a bit to remedy that) found it pretty uncomfortable. Breathing wasn't ideal. And breathing's one of my favourite things.

I’ve bought a few from Hugo Boss, really easy to wear and not restricting.

https://www.hugoboss.com/uk/face-mask-with-new-season-print/hbeu50452661_410.html?cgid=23913

https://www.hugoboss.com/uk/men-face-masks/

Aren't those overly restrained for your taste ?

Like Michael Foot and his donkey jacket my fashion choices are unfairly characterised.

You shouldn't be so tough on yourself..... I'm only going by what you've previously shared.

Well my fashion choices have been described as schizophrenic by those who know me well, apparently they fall into the following categories

1) Refined elegance in my expensive bespoke suits and morning suits that makes everyone else feel like a chav

And then there’s the

2) Fucking hell did you get dressed in the dark?

and that's just two people's viewpoint on the same outfit..

IshmaelZ said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Any mask recommendations?

Tried wearing one the other day. Apart from comedy condensation (managed to fiddle with it a bit to remedy that) found it pretty uncomfortable. Breathing wasn't ideal. And breathing's one of my favourite things.

I’ve bought a few from Hugo Boss, really easy to wear and not restricting.

https://www.hugoboss.com/uk/face-mask-with-new-season-print/hbeu50452661_410.html?cgid=23913

https://www.hugoboss.com/uk/men-face-masks/

Aren't those overly restrained for your taste ?

Like Michael Foot and his donkey jacket my fashion choices are unfairly characterised.

You shouldn't be so tough on yourself..... I'm only going by what you've previously shared.

Well my fashion choices have been described as schizophrenic by those who know me well, apparently they fall into the following categories

1) Refined elegance in my expensive bespoke suits and morning suits that makes everyone else feel like a chav

And then there’s the

2) Fucking hell did you get dressed in the dark?

Morning suits suck, they always look hired. A black morning coat with spongebag trousers is the way to go.

Bespoke morning suits with a double breasted waistcoat is my weakness.

England case data out - Low lever local authority by specimen date

Tried something little different - sorted on the last 7 days, and highlighted those which look... interesting...

CorrectHorseBattery said:

The care worker immigration policy is an absolute travesty.

Tory pricks.

It's daft isn't it. It's possible to develop technologies that enable fruit and vegetables to be harvested without so much use of humans, and what use there is is is skilled. It'll take a while and we might be short of fruit and veg for a few years.
However, so far as I'm aware it isn't possible to do so when caring for aged and sick humans.

Patel surely has relatives in the caring and allied professions who could put her straight. If she hasn't asked or listened she's just foolish and/or cruel. And TBH, the latter's not my face-to-face (or letter) experience of her.

Edited for FFS.

https://twitter.com/ClarkeMicah/status/1282677431250411520

Andy_JS said:

https://twitter.com/ClarkeMicah/status/1282677431250411520

A certified nutcase!

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Dr. Foxy, that's a perspective with which I cannot agree. It's so... blasé.

This is more akin to a second Cold War and we should treat it as such, instead of just shrugging and saying "Yeah, Britain threw its weight around in the past so I guess this is ok."

It isn't.

Those so upset about the British Empire seem remarkably unconcerned by concentration camps and the territorial grabbing of half the South China Sea.

That's not happening centuries ago to men long dead, it's happening right now. As might military action in the area. The whole of Western politics have been shockingly complacent.

Nah. We chummed up with China after Tianamen Square, indeed handed over Hong Kong to them a few years later. We knew what they were like.

Sure, I dont like China's repression of the Uigars, but there is nothing that we can really do about it apart from a bit of diplomatic pressure. That's Realpolitik.

Indeed only 2 countries can realistically take on China, the USA and India, we can provide support to them but we are not a superpower anymore in the league of those 3 nations