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  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845
    isam said:

    This could do for Starmer what sacking Emily Thornberry did for Ed Miliband
    Remind me how Miliband did at the subsequent GE...
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 3,872
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Halfon's already got his letter in to the 1922, hasn't he?

    Good to see Ash Sarkar and wee Owen getting their knickers in a twist. Just proves Starmer is right.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    WTF is the government trying to achieve with "air bridges"? If an AB is created to a country, will ABs then be created to all other countries it has at least some open (or more or less open) border-crossings with, and so on, down the line?

    Or will it be a case of you can fly to France and then drive to Italy and on to Slovenia, and back through Italy to France to catch a flight back, without going in to quarantine back in Blighty, but you can't fly from Blighty to Slovenia?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,286
    edited June 2020
    justin124 said:

    I wonder if RLB will seek to get sufficient nominations to challenge Keir for the Leadership?
    She wouldn't require nominations unless there was a vacancy. Under Labour Party rules, there won't be a vacancy unless Starmer loses a vote of confidence among the PLP.

    There is ZERO chance of that happening for the foreseeable future as (i) most Labour MPs think he's doing a grand job; and (ii) even hard Corbynites, who may well prefer someone else, aren't stupid enough to move on him in the certain knowledge they will lose.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,364

    https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1276164973379584001

    Glad this moron isn't advising the leader, in another life he would be

    On the contrary, the RLB story will be forgotten tomorrow.
  • isam said:

    This could do for Starmer what sacking Emily Thornberry did for Ed Miliband
    Put him in Downing Street? Oh, wait
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    So is the notion that the Israeli army trains the US police in restraint techniques

    1. A fact

    2. Tin foil hat twaddle

    ????

    It doesn't matter. The fact is only being discussed because it is Israel.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:
    Perfect would be removing the whip and formally expelling the cancer.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    I have been checking the US Polls, and we now have at least one poll in each battleground state (Maine and Nebraska are still a bit of a problem, but thankfully that's only a small effect). We will assume not faithless electors - there were 7 last time.

    Hillary won 13 states, plus DC and ME-1, by more than 10%. Only a very ambitious Republican candidate could expect to make progress here, and I think we can now rule this out. This gives Biden a whopping 183 Electoral College Votes (ECVs).

    There are 13 states, plus NE-1 and NE-3, which would only be winnable by the Dems on a landslide, worth 72 ECVs. There are a further 7 states (53 ECVs) where Biden would need double the (large) swing he is already showing, which I would call out-of-reach at the moment. Biden would need the best campaign of his life... and I don't think he is Mr Charasmatic in that way.

    That leaves 17 states, plus ME-2 and NE-2, which I think we can now reasonably suggest are battleground states.

    Biden leads Trump by 10% or more in 5 states also won by Hillary, which seem like the natural starting point. Only Virginia looks vulnerable, if we think Kaine's nomination helped Clinton (not too much evidence of that IIRC though). These five add another 39 ECVs, bringing Biden up to 222. Let's pencil those in.

    To make sense of the rest, I think we have to assume that Biden would be happy with the 8% swing he's achieved on present polls (i return below to bigger wins). This would hand him a further 8 states, for a handsome 333 ECVs to Trump's 204, only a smidgen worse than Obama v McCain in 2008. They are:

    Michigan (16 ECVs)
    Wisconsin (10 ECVs)
    Pennsylvania (20)
    New Hampshire (4)
    Florida (29)
    Arizona (11)
    North Carolina (15)
    Nevada (6)

    To win the Presidency, Biden needs 47.

    To my mind the most straightforward route is to force Trump to lose the Presidency the way he won it, by conceding Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, plus any other state - states won by Trump's appeal in 2016 to white, working class, "passed over" voters. Biden currently leads Trump by 9% in these states.

    There is, I think, another route focused more clearly on Latino, Hispanic and Black voters, which involves Florida, Arizona, Nevada and another. There is however very little sign of Biden picking up more votes than Clinton in this demographic, although he does lead Trump by 6% in these states at the moment.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    She wouldn't require nominations unless there was a vacancy. Under Labour Party rules, there won't be a vacancy unless Starmer loses a vote of confidence among the PLP.

    There is ZERO chance of that happening for the foreseeable future as (i) most Labour MPs think he's doing a grand job; and (ii) even hard Corbynites, who may well prefer someone else, aren't stupid enough to move on him in the certain knowledge they will lose.
    I am not aware that a vote of confidence from Labour MPs is required.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,574

    Talking of Corbynista anti-semitism, do we know when the EHRC report is due?

    I think it's meant to be going to Labour for comment by the end of the month, then they have 28 days to respond. SO I would guess publication will be in September.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    I knew the Hindu symbol would eventually be brought up!

    The difference is the Hindu symbol is now solely and fully associated with the extremists. That isn't the case with either the Union Flag or taking the knee.
    Try telling that to Hindu's. Last time I looked that symbol was still on their ancient temples. And rightly so.
  • tlg86 said:

    Starmer has left himself open to awkward questions about Maxine Peake. Will he himself declare her comment antisemitic?

    What she did was spread an antisemitic conspiracy theory. That's clear. Starmer has no absolutely need to opine on whether someone he has probably never met (or if he has, only very briefly) is personally antisemitic or merely woefully ill-informed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,574
    justin124 said:

    I am being slightly flippant - but she probably could muster sufficient support from Corbynite MPs were she so inclined.
    I wonder:

    Where there is no vacancy, nominations
    may be sought by potential challengers
    each year prior to the annual session of
    Party conference. In this case any
    nomination must be supported by 20 per
    cent of the combined Commons members
    of the PLP and members of the EPLP.
    Nominations not attaining this threshold
    shall be null and void. The sitting Leader or
    Deputy Leader shall not be required to
    seek nominations in the event of a
    challenge under this rule.


    Labour Party Rule Book 2019, chapter 4 clause II

    41 MPs seems a toughish ask.
  • RobD said:

    On the contrary, the RLB story will be forgotten tomorrow.
    He killed the Rosie Duffield story stone dead by punting her immediately, whereas Dom's Durham pursuits are a festering wound for the Tories.

    His judgement seems sound.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,348
    Doesn't Labours deputy leader share a flat with RLB?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    ydoethur said:

    I think it's meant to be going to Labour for comment by the end of the month, then they have 28 days to respond. SO I would guess publication will be in September.
    Thanks.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538
    edited June 2020

    Try telling that to Hindu's. Last time I looked that symbol was still on their ancient temples. And rightly so.
    It's also on the floor at Upminster Bridge station:

    https://www.proswastika.org/e107_images/newspost_images/europe_uk_london_upminster_bridge_2.jpg
  • justin124 said:

    I am not aware that a vote of confidence from Labour MPs is required.
    It is. It happened in the 2016 challenge to Corbyn, and I don't believe the system has been changed to make challenge easier since then (it would be very surprising indeed if it had under Corbyn himself).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    What she did was spread an antisemitic conspiracy theory. That's clear. Starmer has no absolutely need to opine on whether someone he has probably never met (or if he has, only very briefly) is personally antisemitic or merely woefully ill-informed.
    Might not stop him being asked, though.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845

    What she did was spread an antisemitic conspiracy theory. That's clear. Starmer has no absolutely need to opine on whether someone he has probably never met (or if he has, only very briefly) is personally antisemitic or merely woefully ill-informed.
    Peake is a self-righteous type who will never acknowledge that she could possibly be mistaken - like some many of the leftie luvvies out there who are all too willing to share their 'opinions' as if anyone needed to hear them.

    Surely if RLB can't sit in the shadow cabinet, Peake should be expelled from Labour (if she is indeed a member)
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    I think this is more about getting rid of a former rival rather than anything more significant.

    He saw an opportunity to get rid of her and went for it - which is good in one way, but I am not sure he is that concerned about dealing with AS - this feels tactical rather than principled.
    If that was the reason why appoint her in the first place a couple of months ago? Doesn't make any sense at all.

    Starmer is making Labour electable by drawing a distinct line under the past. The more the Corbynistas whine about this the better for Labour.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824

    What I am saying is we should not be fobbed off with the idea that scrapping juries is a 'temporary measure' because 'temporary measures' tend to become permanent.
    Yes. Temporary measures - whether good or bad - sometimes end up becoming permanent. This is indisputable. We are as one.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,243
    The "Israeli military does it" excuse is never a good idea. Unless you can actually provide some evidence.

    Clue - military and police manuals are never secret for long.

    And since a vast range of Israelis pass through the security forces for their national service, keeping this kind of thing hidden is basically impossible.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Try telling that to Hindu's. Last time I looked that symbol was still on their ancient temples. And rightly so.
    Indeed and fair enough too!

    But context matters. If I see a white skinhead with that symbol tattooed on them I'm not thinking "holy Hindu symbol". If I see it on a Hindu temple I would.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    Perfect would be removing the whip and formally expelling the cancer.
    Slowly, slowly catchy monkey - anyone sane would take their time here to ensure that when you get rid of them they have zero routes back.

  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 437
    isam said:

    I do think it's wrong, yes. But that isn't the point
    There are plenty of people who are mildly irritated by the kneeling protest, and many of them are Red/Blue-Wallers, but they are not going to refuse to vote for anyone who joins in with it.

    Save for a few who have genuinely misunderstood it, the people who are so angered by the protest that it would sway their vote were never going to vote Labour anyway, and nor should Labour be courting their votes.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741
    As a slight aside, a question for all Tory Members on here

    https://twitter.com/mrchrisaddison/status/1276167587991339017
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    edited June 2020


    Just like words the meaning of symbols change. Words which started as euphemisms to avoid offence are now themselves offensive: and I’m not going to give examples, I think we all know the sort of word I mean.



  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,243
    Nigelb said:

    In the context of the rest of the piece, it just looked as though he was enjoying the opportunity to use the term, which is not one in acceptable usage today.
    So satirising White Saviour Imperialism is OK, if you *aren't* enjoying yourself?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724
    Wow. Starmer is making it a lot easier for (those) people (who might have voted Cons or indeed anything else) to vote for him.

    What did Peake's article say, btw, which was the root of the issue?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    edited June 2020
    duplicate.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824

    It's telling where the cancel culture cult think cancelling is a step too far...

    And where the wokaphobes learn to love it.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,375
    RobD said:

    On the contrary, the RLB story will be forgotten tomorrow.
    One of the striking things about the Corbynistas is that, leaving aside their policies, they were really terrible at the nuts and bolts of politics.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Slowly, slowly catchy monkey - anyone sane would take their time here to ensure that when you get rid of them they have zero routes back.

    Removing the whip aids that better than sacking from ShadCab.
  • Peake is a self-righteous type who will never acknowledge that she could possibly be mistaken - like some many of the leftie luvvies out there who are all too willing to share their 'opinions' as if anyone needed to hear them.

    Surely if RLB can't sit in the shadow cabinet, Peake should be expelled from Labour (if she is indeed a member)
    She can go back to 'Left Unity' along with Ken Loach, and look forward to getting 120 votes in a by-election.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,243

    Of course it is.

    This is just like the furore over the cost of changing passports colour when in reality that change didn't cost anything it was just part of the specification used and the passports would have been required and the same money spent either way.

    Is it just me, or it is rathe anodyne - graphic artist does a riff on the flag?

    Bit like -

    image
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    It is. It happened in the 2016 challenge to Corbyn, and I don't believe the system has been changed to make challenge easier since then (it would be very surprising indeed if it had under Corbyn himself).
    That is why he was challenged in 2016 - but it was not a requirement. I have just checked the rules - RLB would need the nomination of 22 MP s and 5% of CLPs. I am not expecting it - simply pondering the possibility!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    If we want instead to talk about the size of Biden's victory ( a little premature perhaps), then let's instead assume that Biden wins all states he's currently leading in, plus NE-2 and ME-2 - a total of 335 ECVs. Where next?

    There are a group of 4 states which I couldn't easily assign a victor on current polls: Georgia, Ohio, Texas, and Iowa. Georgia is possibly the most talked about but I don't quite sense it. There are however quite a lot of ECVs here (78), which would mean a 413 - 125 victory - comparable to Bush v Dukakis.

    Finally, a further Biden advance before November might conceivable see him gain a further 7 states, including (for example) Louisiana and Alaska (53) votes, putting Trump comparable to Carter in 1980 or Goldwater in 1964.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,307
    Causes pain but

    Johnson and Jenrick
    Starmer and Long-Bailey

    As someone may have once said, "The difference is I lead my party, he follows his".
  • isamisam Posts: 41,348

    Indeed and fair enough too!

    But context matters. If I see a white skinhead with that symbol tattooed on them I'm not thinking "holy Hindu symbol". If I see it on a Hindu temple I would.
    Yes. When I saw a photo of Colin Kapernick take the knee in 2016 I didn't think 'Taking sides on race riots in Britain 2020' but when I see a left wing politician do so whilst BLM are rioting, I do!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,574

    It is. It happened in the 2016 challenge to Corbyn, and I don't believe the system has been changed to make challenge easier since then (it would be very surprising indeed if it had under Corbyn himself).
    The whole point is that there is no 'vote of no confidence' mechanism in Labour. THe vote on Corbyn had no actual standing, it was purely advisory.

    Later, Owen Smith managed to get sufficient nominations to launch a leadership contest instead, which is the only way of removing a sitting Labour leader.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Tense weekend coming up at the Long-Bailey & Rayner flatshare...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    Wow. Starmer is making it a lot easier for (those) people (who might have voted Cons or indeed anything else) to vote for him.

    What did Peake's article say, btw, which was the root of the issue?

    Falsely claimed the kneeling on the neck was a tactic learnt from Israeli security services.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,243

    I have been checking the US Polls, and we now have at least one poll in each battleground state (Maine and Nebraska are still a bit of a problem, but thankfully that's only a small effect). We will assume not faithless electors - there were 7 last time.

    Hillary won 13 states, plus DC and ME-1, by more than 10%. Only a very ambitious Republican candidate could expect to make progress here, and I think we can now rule this out. This gives Biden a whopping 183 Electoral College Votes (ECVs).

    There are 13 states, plus NE-1 and NE-3, which would only be winnable by the Dems on a landslide, worth 72 ECVs. There are a further 7 states (53 ECVs) where Biden would need double the (large) swing he is already showing, which I would call out-of-reach at the moment. Biden would need the best campaign of his life... and I don't think he is Mr Charasmatic in that way.

    That leaves 17 states, plus ME-2 and NE-2, which I think we can now reasonably suggest are battleground states.

    Biden leads Trump by 10% or more in 5 states also won by Hillary, which seem like the natural starting point. Only Virginia looks vulnerable, if we think Kaine's nomination helped Clinton (not too much evidence of that IIRC though). These five add another 39 ECVs, bringing Biden up to 222. Let's pencil those in.

    To make sense of the rest, I think we have to assume that Biden would be happy with the 8% swing he's achieved on present polls (i return below to bigger wins). This would hand him a further 8 states, for a handsome 333 ECVs to Trump's 204, only a smidgen worse than Obama v McCain in 2008. They are:

    Michigan (16 ECVs)
    Wisconsin (10 ECVs)
    Pennsylvania (20)
    New Hampshire (4)
    Florida (29)
    Arizona (11)
    North Carolina (15)
    Nevada (6)

    To win the Presidency, Biden needs 47.

    To my mind the most straightforward route is to force Trump to lose the Presidency the way he won it, by conceding Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, plus any other state - states won by Trump's appeal in 2016 to white, working class, "passed over" voters. Biden currently leads Trump by 9% in these states.

    There is, I think, another route focused more clearly on Latino, Hispanic and Black voters, which involves Florida, Arizona, Nevada and another. There is however very little sign of Biden picking up more votes than Clinton in this demographic, although he does lead Trump by 6% in these states at the moment.

    Pardon me - but isn't Biden doing very well with black voters? The loyal VP of Obama etc?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    The whole point is that there is no 'vote of no confidence' mechanism in Labour. THe vote on Corbyn had no actual standing, it was purely advisory.

    Later, Owen Smith managed to get sufficient nominations to launch a leadership contest instead, which is the only way of removing a sitting Labour leader.
    Absolutely correct.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,303
    Reply to Mr Thompson (the number of nested quotes was getting out of hand).

    Interesting you mention “taking the knee” as a symbol. In the original context of American Football the act is one performed by quarterbacks in games all the time, so the phrase has a resonance to Americans that far fewer in the wider world would get. Would you say it still has the symbolism of an act used to run down the clock at the end of a half when your team is winning, or has the meaning changed now?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,375

    Tense weekend coming up at the Long-Bailey & Rayner flatshare...

    Bubble story, mate.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786
    OllyT said:

    If that was the reason why appoint her in the first place a couple of months ago? Doesn't make any sense at all.

    Starmer is making Labour electable by drawing a distinct line under the past. The more the Corbynistas whine about this the better for Labour.
    She was appointed to the Shadow Cabinet because she came a creditable second in the leadership contest. Not giving her any job would have been provocative, unnecessary and led to early disunity, especially as most of his other shadow cabinet appointments pissed off the left of the party. RLB was a quid pro quo for the likes of Rachel Reeves He knows exactly what he's doing.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Pardon me - but isn't Biden doing very well with black voters? The loyal VP of Obama etc?
    Yes. But he is not doing that much better than Hillary. According to CNN, he averages an 83% to 8% lead with black voters over the last two months. Clinton was ahead 83% to 5% in the final 2016 polls.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,243
    isam said:

    Yes. When I saw a photo of Colin Kapernick take the knee in 2016 I didn't think 'Taking sides on race riots in Britain 2020' but when I see a left wing politician do so whilst BLM are rioting, I do!
    Incidentally, doesn't the symbol in question usually got the other way to the problematic version?

    My wife had a bit of a start when some neighbours painted one on their doorstep - Indian family of course.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824

    Superficially the sacking of RLB looks harsh, but it my guess is that Starmer has put the shadow cabinet under a warning that anything that can be perceived as anti-semitic will result in an instant dismissal, so she's had to go. Her crime is fairly minor: praising an article about a socialist actor. As others have said, there is a danger that absolutely any criticism of the Israeli state (including its Secret Service) is taken as ipso facto anti-semitic. We can criticise Putin without criticising the Russian people. Israel perhaps should be a special case, about which we need to be especially careful, but the Israeli government and its agencies must not be beyond criticism.

    So although RLB had to go, and Starmer is right, I would rather she had gone for her poor performance as shadow Education Secretary. She has failed to hold to account effectively the manifest failings of Williamson and Johnson on the return to school fiasco.

    It does contrast sharply with Jenrick, who despite the defence of some on here should clearly be out of the cabinet for many reasons. The fact that the public don't really care is irrelevant, and signifies governance by publicity rather than by principle. This will end up backfiring on the PM.

    She has been invisible on schools. I was just thinking that the other day.

    The sacking for this might as you say be good politics. It probably is. I do hope so because on its own it looks to me unwarranted.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Reply to Mr Thompson (the number of nested quotes was getting out of hand).

    Interesting you mention “taking the knee” as a symbol. In the original context of American Football the act is one performed by quarterbacks in games all the time, so the phrase has a resonance to Americans that far fewer in the wider world would get. Would you say it still has the symbolism of an act used to run down the clock at the end of a half when your team is winning, or has the meaning changed now?

    I know nothing of that symbolism but don't follow the sport.

    As far as I know Kaepernick started kneeling to show respect while protesting not to symbolise running down the clock.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Yes. But he is not doing that much better than Hillary. According to CNN, he averages an 83% to 8% lead with black voters over the last two months. Clinton was ahead 83% to 5% in the final 2016 polls.
    Black employment hit a record high under Trump.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,348

    Incidentally, doesn't the symbol in question usually got the other way to the problematic version?

    My wife had a bit of a start when some neighbours painted one on their doorstep - Indian family of course.
    Not white skinheads?!


  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    She has been invisible on schools. I was just thinking that the other day.

    The sacking for this might as you say be good politics. It probably is. I do hope so because on its own it looks to me unwarranted.
    Unwarranted? Unwarranted?

    And you wonder why I attacked RLB (even if hyperbolically) for being an anti-Semite!!!!

    Maybe I should start my own list of things you have said like you do for me, though most of them twisted.

    1: Sacking RLB was unwarranted.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    She has been invisible on schools. I was just thinking that the other day.

    The sacking for this might as you say be good politics. It probably is. I do hope so because on its own it looks to me unwarranted.
    The problem for Starmer is that if he is going to go on the attack on schools with a more capable minister he may have to go against the teaching unions.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    tlg86 said:

    Starmer has left himself open to awkward questions about Maxine Peake. Will he himself declare her comment antisemitic?

    One could say that he has effectively done so.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    She was appointed to the Shadow Cabinet because she came a creditable second in the leadership contest. Not giving her any job would have been provocative, unnecessary and led to early disunity, especially as most of his other shadow cabinet appointments pissed off the left of the party. RLB was a quid pro quo for the likes of Rachel Reeves He knows exactly what he's doing.
    A strong leader would have been willing to be provocative. Better late than never.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    She has been invisible on schools. I was just thinking that the other day.

    The sacking for this might as you say be good politics. It probably is. I do hope so because on its own it looks to me unwarranted.
    Unwarranted? Losing your job for expressing your political beliefs seems to be all the rage these days...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,243
    isam said:

    Not white skinheads?!


    No - just arrived from Mumbai, on work visas. Wife was pregnant - we gave them a n number of boxes of baby/child clothes we had boxed up in storage.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,850
    edited June 2020
    No fan of left wingers like RLB and I am not sure she is up to being Shadow Education Secretary (an important job ) but to cancel her for this is a bit steep imo. It does show we have turned into a very juvenile political land where a slight off message tweet or re tweet will get you sacked. Isn't the job of a politician to have opinions or at least facilitate debate. ? Keir Starmer certainly did with his kneeling - If it was to support BLM well they do have some funny opinions about stuff themselves so he is in danger of being asked why he sacked RLB but he is endorsing all types of extreme stuff with BLM agendas.

    What with Burnley welders and senior Labour politicians being sacked for perfectly legal comms we are getting like that Peep Show episode where they were all trying to get each other sectioned.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Wouldn't that cut both ways? If the EU creates rules/supports industries that we believe give them an unfair advantage, we could impose tariffs on them?

    https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1276158485743439873?s=20
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,859

    No fan of left wingers like RLB and I am not sure she is up to being Shadow Education Secretary (an important job ) but to cancel her for this is a bit steep imo. It does show we have turned into a very juvenile political land where a slight off message tweet or re tweet will get you sacked. Isn't the job of a politician to have opinions or at least facilitate debate. ? Keir Starmer certainly did with his kneeling - If it was to support BLM well they do have some funny opinions about stuff themselves so he is in danger of being asked why he sacked RLB but he is endorsing all types of extreme stuff with BLM agendas.

    Long-Bailey's defence was that she supported the thrust of the argument, which said that we need to destroy capitalism and that anyone who supported Starmer but not Corbyn was a Tory.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    yeah - if you're saying that looks like austin powers, get off twitter, m8, and get outside. take some time off.
    THE FLAG IS BACK TO FRONT

    :/
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033

    No fan of left wingers like RLB and I am not sure she is up to being Shadow Education Secretary (an important job ) but to cancel her for this is a bit steep imo. It does show we have turned into a very juvenile political land where a slight off message tweet or re tweet will get you sacked. Isn't the job of a politician to have opinions or at least facilitate debate. ? Keir Starmer certainly did with his kneeling - If it was to support BLM well they do have some funny opinions about stuff themselves so he is in danger of being asked why he sacked RLB but he is endorsing all types of extreme stuff with BLM agendas.

    Isn't he simply remodelling Labour after Corbyn, this was his first excuse.
    He's still got a long way to go to equal Boris's clearing out of Tory Remainers.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,303

    I know nothing of that symbolism but don't follow the sport.

    As far as I know Kaepernick started kneeling to show respect while protesting not to symbolise running down the clock.
    It’s not so much the act as the name: calling it “taking a knee” rather than kneeling shows its NFL origins.

    On a tangent I think having the national anthem at every game is really odd: For games where two national teams are competing, perhaps, but not every game.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786

    Removing the whip aids that better than sacking from ShadCab.
    Presumably you would have removed the Tory whip from Conor Burns for abusing parliamentary privilege in intimidating a member of the public?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,134
    Major incident declared in Bournemouth, suffering hugely from a massive influx of visitors and with incidents of violence.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    First air bridge in the British isles:

    https://twitter.com/Govgg/status/1276172044808400897?s=20
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033

    Unwarranted? Losing your job for expressing your political beliefs seems to be all the rage these days...
    ... whereas breaking Lockdown or helping a property developer donor would allow you to keep your job.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845
    eek said:

    As a slight aside, a question for all Tory Members on here

    https://twitter.com/mrchrisaddison/status/1276167587991339017

    And why do Unions give millions to the Labour Party if not in the hope of getting something out of it?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845
    Scott_xP said:
    Starmer is no Tony Blair. He is barely even a Bryan Gould
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,303
    kinabalu said:

    One could say that he has effectively done so.
    Well, it sort of was. It stated that the US police got the idea of kneeling on black people only because of the Israelis. This appears to be a made up story.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,824
    edited June 2020

    Unwarranted? Unwarranted?

    And you wonder why I attacked RLB (even if hyperbolically) for being an anti-Semite!!!!

    Maybe I should start my own list of things you have said like you do for me, though most of them twisted.

    1: Sacking RLB was unwarranted.
    I'm OK with that - in the sense of this "offence" rather than the wider context of Starmer wanting a clause 4 moment.

    There was a discussion earlier about how sometimes juries reach a verdict based on a vista broader than the case in front of them.

    This was IMO similar.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786
    kinabalu said:

    She has been invisible on schools. I was just thinking that the other day.

    The sacking for this might as you say be good politics. It probably is. I do hope so because on its own it looks to me unwarranted.
    I agree, it does look harsh. But like I said, I think Starmer has said to the shadow front bench: "if you say, tweet, or do anything that can be perceived as anti-semitic then you'll be out straight away, no questions. We have to be seen to kill dead the allegation of anti-semitism. Do you agree?" To which, I'm sure, the shadow front bench nodded assent. RLB is the victim of this. It's as much a matter of party discipline as it is to do with the specific offence.

    It's not victimisation of RLB; the result would have been the same for any front bench member.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538
    IanB2 said:

    Major incident declared in Bournemouth, suffering hugely from a massive influx of visitors and with incidents of violence.

    Interesting. Looking at traffic on Google Maps, the road along the coast from Worthing to Brighton looks jammed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,724

    Falsely claimed the kneeling on the neck was a tactic learnt from Israeli security services.
    thx
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,792

    ... whereas breaking Lockdown or helping a property developer donor would allow you to keep your job.
    If she didn't realise that endorsing/retweeting that article was politically sensitive she is more stupid than I thought. I saw it and I am not a Jew or in the shadow cabinet. Glad he has sacked her, shows good strong leadership and sends a strong message in many different ways. Another good day Starmer, yet another bad one for Johnson.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,367
    One problem with sacking RLB like this is every time another Labour MP does something similar, and that will happen on Twitter, Starmer is going to be put in the position of sacking them too or looking like he was settling a score.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Yes. But he is not doing that much better than Hillary. According to CNN, he averages an 83% to 8% lead with black voters over the last two months. Clinton was ahead 83% to 5% in the final 2016 polls.
    A hugely interesting gender split in the black vote in 2016.

    The voter study I saw had Black women going 98% Hilary. They had a * next to how many voted for Trump. I don't think it was zero but it was unmeasurably low. Black men went 14% Trump.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Presumably you would have removed the Tory whip from Conor Burns for abusing parliamentary privilege in intimidating a member of the public?
    Yes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,134
    tlg86 said:

    Interesting. Looking at traffic on Google Maps, the road along the coast from Worthing to Brighton looks jammed.
    Gridlock around the town, more parking tickets issued than on any single day previously, refuse collectors emptying beachside bins need security guards after previous abuse and assaults. It sounds like chaos down there,
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ... whereas breaking Lockdown or helping a property developer donor would allow you to keep your job.
    Good. Considering there is a housing shortage helping property developers and opposing NIMBYism should be encouraged.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    And why do Unions give millions to the Labour Party if not in the hope of getting something out of it?
    So you agree that donors only give money to political parties so that they benefit from it...
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845
    kinabalu said:

    Yes I'm OK with that.

    In the sense of this "offence" rather than the wider context of Starmer wanting a clause 4 moment.

    There was a discussion earlier about how sometimes juries decide based on a vista broader than the case in front of them.

    This was similar.
    The Clause 4 moment he needs it getting rid of high ranking members of the previous leadership from the party completely. RLB's retweeting is nothing compared to statements/behaviour from Corbyn and many of his clique. Yes, she has done it today - so is the immediate target.

    Once the EHRC report comes out, people have to be expelled - and that includes big names. Not allowed to resign. Expelled. No matter who they were.

    That is the Clause 4 moment that might help. Today isn't that moment
  • Alasdair_Alasdair_ Posts: 17
    Pulpstar said:

    Rust belt loves Biden

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1276163193786818572

    Ohio and Iowa might be in play if those are accurate. Indiana isn't going to be called at the top of the night either.

    These polls look good for Biden, but are they filtered to exclude those who won't vote?

    So are these polls of Registered voters who are 100% certain to vote?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    Blimey, Starmer's grown a pair and sacked RLB.

    Right or wrong - and I assume the left think it wrong - it establishes himself as decisive against his own side, and that impression will be helpful even if he is indecisive later.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538
    IanB2 said:

    Gridlock around the town, more parking tickets issued than on any single day previously, refuse collectors emptying beachside bins need security guards after previous abuse and assaults. It sounds like chaos down there,
    My family have gone to Littlehampton today - that tends to be a bit better than the bigger resorts - but I'll report back if there was any trouble there.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,792

    THE FLAG IS BACK TO FRONT

    :/
    The union flag being flown upside down used to be a maritime distress signal. Fairly apt for Bozo. Ian Paisley would have had something to say about it!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884
    edited June 2020

    Wouldn't that cut both ways? If the EU creates rules/supports industries that we believe give them an unfair advantage, we could impose tariffs on them?

    https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1276158485743439873?s=20

    Hmm. The one way to avoid that unforeseeable risk of arbitrary treatment is for both sides to sign up permanently to common rules, in effect for the UK io commit to EU rules. I wonder what Frost's intention is?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,574

    Starmer is no Tony Blair. He is barely even a Bryan Gould
    Although he does Neil.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845

    Unprecedented scenes on PB as a thread on the Lib Dems is overshadowed by events.....

    Who?
This discussion has been closed.