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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Social Undistanceables: A Plan

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  • eekeek Posts: 29,739
    RobD said:

    I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
    I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    eek said:

    I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
    And how does that relate to what Casino_Royale said?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    MaxPB said:

    I refer you to my post yesterday saying exactly this, which was then dismissed by a few of our lefty commenters (though thankfully not even close to all). I'm genuinely worried that racism towards Indians is going to be stepped up by the left who will see us as enemies of their agenda just as Jews are.
    Aaaand.. that's how things like these protests, whilst starting off well-intentioned, end up worsening race relations.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    Charles II and, it must be said, Cromwell headed governemnts which sent plenty of indentured servants to the West Indies - as good as slaves: Irish and Scottish PoWs from the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and the Wars of the Covenant.
    Another little-known crime.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Mortimer said:

    This is why mob bandwagons must be resisted. And violent disturbance and criminal damage be very firmly punished.

    I'm not a fan of Colston. But its not where they start, but where they finish, thats the problem.

    Churchill? Cromwell?
    Grey was also the PM who, I think rammed through the Great Reform act of 1832 that started to open up the franchise to ordinary people. In the teeth of opposition from the tories under the Duke of Wellington
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Andy_JS said:
    Because they have suffered total ideological capture by the left. The opinion of the elected Home Secretary is apparently irrelevant to them.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    Received from our local theatre this morning - https://mailchi.mp/6dcdfaf58079/the-beggars-theatre-6223578?e=66a79c74c4
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,672
    MaxPB said:

    Homeschooling with 4-6 other children and teachers paid for by the parents of those children, perhaps?
    What is happening about that in eg Sweden where holeschooling may lead to the State taking your children away?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,672
    MaxPB said:

    Homeschooling with 4-6 other children and teachers paid for by the parents of those children, perhaps?
    What is happening about that in eg Sweden where holeschooling may lead to the State taking your children away?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945

    I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

    Bloody hell. That would be quite a project. Are they intending to bring down Eldon Square as collateral damage?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177

    Grey was also the PM who, I think rammed through the Great Reform act of 1832 that started to open up the franchise to ordinary people. In the teeth of opposition from the tories under the Duke of Wellington
    Yeah, that’s what the inscription commemorates on the monument itself.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    edited June 2020

    I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

    And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.

    And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    eek said:

    I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
    Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    Nigelb said:

    To be fair, attempting to argue with a beverage isn't perhaps the most brilliant of ideas.
    I bet he found it quite straining.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    A show on Bbc2 at 9pm tonight called 'A House Through Time' about the history of a 19th Century house in Bristol - wonder if it mentions the bloke the statue was of
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,792
    Has there ever been a time where, as in the case with Education at the moment, where the Secretary of State and his/her shadow have both been so pathetically lightweight? Both of them are utterly hopeless, and yet have the future generation in their hands ffs!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    dixiedean said:

    Bloody hell. That would be quite a project. Are they intending to bring down Eldon Square as collateral damage?
    I reckon you could get away with just taking out pret.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    Stocky said:

    I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.

    I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
    Equivalent here, therefore, being incomers who in places refuse to integrate, insist on living in their own cultural bubble.

    I understand the point but tbh I think this is more what @Casino_Royale was keen to stress he is NOT alluding to.

    Am hoping we will clarify but of course no big deal. There are one or two posters on here who I sense are unpleasantly racist but he is not one of them.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,739

    Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?
    Because the fear would be that a lack of response would be seen by people as tacit approval... Just replace the name Laura Towler with Tommy Robinson and think through how a brand would need to react.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    So much for fizzling out. Second wave is on in Israel (see the graph at 13:32):

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    isam said:

    A show on Bbc2 at 9pm tonight called 'A House Through Time' about the history of a 19th Century house in Bristol - wonder if it mentions the bloke the statue was of

    Might be worth a watch, the one on the house in Liverpool was very good.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?
    Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,672
    Interesting conversation with the head coach of my gym on their distancing plans.

    Currently they are running classes of 5 outside.

    They are gearing to be ready by July to have classes inside with 3m x 4m per class member, with a further 2m on top of that between rows in the class. Plus the doors and loading bay open front and back for strong ventilation.

    Obviously with appropriate wipedown etc.

    Membership numbers are now down just over 15% since Feb - this with a good online training and social programme running.

    There has also been a fair bit of work done in the gym in the interim to improve the fit out.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,739
    dixiedean said:

    Bloody hell. That would be quite a project. Are they intending to bring down Eldon Square as collateral damage?
    Depends on the path used, it would probably take down part of Monument Mall and definitely part of Monument station which is built all around it.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279

    It isn’t at all.

    Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu @kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.

    It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.

    Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
    A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:

    "If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".

    I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    Stocky said:

    I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.

    I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
    People in Gibraltar were setting up British pubs festooned with union jacks? Whatever next.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    RobD said:

    So much for fizzling out. Second wave is on in Israel (see the graph at 13:32):

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/

    Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said he was taking the precaution after the number of daily new cases of coronavirus rose to around 100.

    We're still miles higher than that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    Pulpstar said:

    Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said he was taking the precaution after the number of daily new cases of coronavirus rose to around 100.

    We're still miles higher than that.
    Yeah, but they used to be miles lower than that after their first peak.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MattW said:

    What is happening about that in eg Sweden where holeschooling may lead to the State taking your children away?
    You are confusing moomintrolls with hobbits.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849
    An interesting discussion about commercial property and "the market rate". The revolutionary thing about this pandemic in UK retail has been the explosion in online. No, I don't mean getting Tesco or Amazon to ship it to you, I mean going to Heinz and ordering Beanz for delivery. Direct To Consumer from all kinds of unlikely brands and businesses is a genuinely fascinating development.

    What does it mean? If it continues, then sell your shares in the supermarkets. Take someone like Morrisons. An uptick in sales at huge costs - they've had to recruit 25k+ new staff, throw money at a rapid expansion in online, yet their overall sales are down because fuel. Once big brands start doing direct sales then any retail is in trouble - as noted by intu getting the receivers on standby for their prospective bankruptcy as the Q2 rent round throws their tenants under the bus and drags them with it.

    As noted, investors are happy to see property shuttered rather than recognise that it's worth far less than book. Rochdale town centre an early victim to this with so many shops closed and not re-let as the rent asked for was £stupid.

    We're going to have to reposess and repurpose these buildings. CPO to wrest them from their investor, let the nice accomodation out to people, peppercorn rent or more accommodation for the former shop. My Brother has just started the conversion of the shop attached to his house in rural Aberdeenshire - the old dear who was the survivor of the family who ran the shop and lived next door dies, he bought both, will make for a spacious house once all converted and knocked through.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,672
    dixiedean said:

    My partner was looking for commercial property to rent over the New Year in our village. A ground floor of a semi detached house was perfect.
    Was quoted a frankly ludicrous rent.
    When asked if they would negotiate told no. Because "that's the market rate."
    When asked why, if that was the market rate, had the previous occupant, a busy and competent hairdresser gone bust and it stood empty for 2 years? No answer was forthcoming.
    It's still vacant.
    Market rents will adjust to the changed market. Those off the high street locations will be turned into residential once the HS locations are forced to drop their rents.

    Pension fund members will stump up the difference where they are the owners.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    RobD said:

    So much for fizzling out. Second wave is on in Israel (see the graph at 13:32):

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/

    States in US outside NY and NJ rising too. Those 2 coming off their massive peaks is disguising the overall figures.
    America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020
    Stocky said:

    A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:

    "If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".

    I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
    These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    RobD said:

    I bet he found it quite straining.
    You should never join a row that's been brewing for a while.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    edited June 2020

    And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.

    And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
    The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.

    It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.

    And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233
    NHS England numbers out - 129
    Last 7 days - 105
    Spanish style - 20

    Looks like last week was under 100 per day.

    image
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    image
    image
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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945

    Yeah, that’s what the inscription commemorates on the monument itself.
    And leading to "100 years of Civil Peace.'
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    eek said:

    I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
    They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    RobD said:

    People in Gibraltar were setting up British pubs festooned with union jacks? Whatever next.
    98.97% British on an 87.9% turnout.

    Beaten by the Falklands mind, 99.8% on a 92% turnout !
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    Andy_JS said:

    We'd be better off without Twitter. Only a minority are able to use it responsibly.
    We'd be better off without liberty. Only a minority are able to use it responsibly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Stocky said:

    A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:

    "If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".

    I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
    Well he has had a great deal of practice.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.

    It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.

    And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
    Wait till they hear about the role the banks played..
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    edited June 2020
    Stocky said:

    A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:

    "If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".

    I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
    And of course there are a whole range of diseases which different ethnicities suffer from disproportionately. Also, I presume using the same Gruarduian journalist logic, Britain must be a massively sexist country, against men.....no? I mean it clearly must be, otherwise why are so many more men dying of this than woman? It is clearly structurally sexist. And most of all, ageist.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,739
    Andy_JS said:

    They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
    Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.

    I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.

    It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.

    And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
    The worse problem is what happens when a different mob decides to tear down Marx's grave and the argument is settled in a pre-law fashion.

    Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Andy_JS said:


    They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.

    They're looking out for their bottom line, and they determined that it'd be better for their brand image to explicitly denounce a facist than remain silent. So it was FREE SPEECH provoked by the incentives of the FREE MARKET. Sorry if that upsets you, snowflake.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    eek said:

    Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
    Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362

    And of course there are a whole range of diseases which different ethnicities suffer from disproportionately. Also, I presume using the same Gruarduian journalist logic, Britain must be a massively sexist country, against men.....no? I mean it clearly must be, otherwise why are so many more men dying of this than woman? It is clearly structurally sexist. And most of all, ageist.
    I doubt they could even understand that if you explained it to them slowly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    In case @Casino_Royale thinks I am indulging in unnecessary levity about his situation, I ought to make clear that I sympathise, and was attempting to make light of the situation.

    And would urge him to stick around.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715

    These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?
    Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."

    The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."

    is why.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    edited June 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    Wait till they hear about the role the banks played..
    Could get a bit dicey when they find out rich Jewish people were also involved.

    And of course to the hard left, the slave bit is only part of it, it is as much about the idea of the wealth and how it was "taken" from the people etc.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    edited June 2020



    I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
    .

    You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    eek said:

    You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

    Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

    So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
    I am aware of how it started. I'd have ignored it. There's no need to engage with far-right morons on Twitter, or anywhere else. I am opposed to them.

    Yorkshire Tea took the bait, and then said "please don't buy our tea again", which I thought unprofessional. Then Owen Jones switched in (a hugely political person, who's posted a list of other statues for removal today on his feed) saying he was going to switch from PG Tips, and then PG Tips waded in saying 'don't worry, Owen, you can enjoy us both guilt-free'.

    I cautioned against this. I said that however well-intentioned they are they'd end up being seen to pick a side and it was better for businesses to steer clear of politics. Because having culture wars extend into the corporate world - ending up with the politicisation of absolutely everything - won't end well for businesses or consumers.

    In recent days, I've posted that I disagree with a mob tearing down a statue, would like to hear from the real BAME community (in all its diversity) to hear what they really think about things like this and similar, rather than taking the protestors rhetoric at face value, and said I'd listen sensitively to the results. I've questioned the wisdom of companies wading into this arena. I've used analogies of being accommodating when in dialogue with one other, and avoiding jumping to offence. I've challenged lazy thinking and assumptions.

    For this (refusing to accept there aren't shade of greys) I've been accused of racism, now also insinuated by you as well.

    If that's how you engage with me, what language do you use for real racists?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    dixiedean said:

    States in US outside NY and NJ rising too. Those 2 coming off their massive peaks is disguising the overall figures.
    America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.
    Indeed. However what got me was "the market rate" insistence. There is no market rate, as there are no comparable properties in our village. And if you can't rent it anyway...
    The bloke clearly meant "what we got away with charging in the past" to be the market rate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    Nigelb said:

    In case @Casino_Royale thinks I am indulging in unnecessary levity about his situation, I ought to make clear that I sympathise, and was attempting to make light of the situation.

    And would urge him to stick around.

    Thanks Nigel.

    I'm not actually going anywhere, I'm just saying I won't engage with anyone who accuses me of being a racist until they apologise.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,672

    Because they have suffered total ideological capture by the left. The opinion of the elected Home Secretary is apparently irrelevant to them.
    Is this partly down to an unforeseen consequence of the creation political Police & Crime Commissioners?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,739

    Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
    Being capitalist companies I suspect they focus on making money first - clearly activists from the left aren't so morally repugnant to the brands typical customer.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
    A bit trickier finding his grave ...
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
    Uh... why? Would you... like that?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    edited June 2020

    You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
    All religious buildings of all faiths better go, because none are free from sin and usually funded by those who made money in ways which are now not socially acceptable.

    I have this sneaking suspicion that the mob though again will have slightly different rules for different faiths.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    dixiedean said:

    Indeed. However what got me was "the market rate" insistence. There is no market rate, as there are no comparable properties in our village. And if you can't rent it anyway...
    The bloke clearly meant "what we got away with charging in the past" to be the market rate.
    Oops. Replied to myself not @MattW . On a completely different topic. Time for a walk.perhaps.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355

    Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?
    I am advising companies not to rise to the bait, because it will end up with mischaracterised polarisation (to both sides) that will do them, and us, no good.

    That's why I said earlier I ended up disagreeing with basically everyone on Twitter on this issue.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    I cautioned against this. I said that however well-intentioned they are they'd end up being seen to pick a side and it was better for businesses to steer clear of politics. Because having culture wars extend into the corporate world - ending up with the politicisation of absolutely everything - won't end well for businesses or consumers.

    Casino Royale: Freelance online purveyor of unsolicited pro-bono brand consultancy services
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    ydoethur said:

    Yes. The problem is that neither party is interested in doing it. That has fuck all to do with private schools and everything to do with the Treasury which refuses to raise taxes or cut spending on unnecessary bureaucracy. A great many problems in education, including funding shortages, would be solved tomorrow by abolishing the DfE and OFQUAL, neither of whom are any use at all (as demonstrated when they were ignored over school closures) but both of whom soak up vast sums of money.

    That said, LEAs being hopelessly corrupt and incompetent and being more interested in creaming off money for their lovely Mercedes cars rather than spending it on children's education doesn't help either.
    Quite so. Not happening. I agree with @OnlyLivingBoy that there would be more chance of it happening if the private option was disincentivized out of existence, to all intents and purposes, but there we run into the turbulence. Perhaps we can just agree on the obvious super short-term step of removing the tax breaks.

    Whatever, we do not want a repetition of our last tumble through this which ended with you calling me "ill-informed and riddled with prejudice" and me retorting that you were a "purveyor of fatuous banalities". What a night that was. :smile:
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    TOPPING said:

    Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."

    The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."

    is why.
    Ah, of course - without them the government would never have thought of using the police to enforce the law. These lefty rags are so useful after all!

    Do you think they're in favour of the police enforcing the law against vandalism now?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366

    Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
    Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538

    The worse problem is what happens when a different mob decides to tear down Marx's grave and the argument is settled in a pre-law fashion.

    Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.
    Quite....and wee Owen Jones will be back on twitter claiming this is horrendous behaviour, what has the country come to, clearly the police are political and doing the governments bidding of enabling the far right....while having cheered on the Bristol mob.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233

    The worse problem is what happens when a different mob decides to tear down Marx's grave and the argument is settled in a pre-law fashion.

    Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.
    When I was at university, there was a... group of very hard left nutters who actually went round being physical with people they didn't like.

    The accademici attualy protected them - it was early days of CCTV, and they tried to get the Student Union to not hand over evidence of the assaults to the police.

    Then, one day, the leader of this bunch of wonderful people found out that I had some Polish ancestry. So he started going on about how Katyn had been great and should have been done more.

    Loud music was playing - so I said "eh?"

    He repeated himself somewhat louder. I again said "eh?"

    On the third repetition, it seems that members of the Polish Society, sitting at the table behind him, heard what was said.

    The next day, the tame academics demanded the CCTV footage......
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    edited June 2020

    All religious buildings of all faiths better go, because none are free from sin and usually funded by those who made money in ways which are now not socially acceptable.

    I have this sneaking suspicion that the mob though again will have slightly different rules for different faiths.
    You seem to have a touching belief in the rationality and rule following of mobs. Do you think it's all a big conspiracy whipped up by Antifa and Yorkshire Tea?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    Yes - like a certain state school in Hampstead.

    You are completely free to send your children there.

    Providing you live in a multi-million pound house. Or live in the servants quarters of one of the really big ones....
    Why does the fact that there is and always will be inequality mean we should not seek to reduce it?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    edited June 2020

    Ah, of course - without them the government would never have thought of using the police to enforce the law. These lefty rags are so useful after all!

    Do you think they're in favour of the police enforcing the law against vandalism now?
    They u-turned in <24hrs. Go back and listen to the press conference. Boris was aghast that anyone could suggest the police might be involved. And then less than a day later, policy changed.

    Could it have been the Telegraph that asked the question? Of course. But they didn't. It was some lefty online rag.

    Do you think that Ancelotti should have gone to Arsenal instead of Everton?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020

    Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.
    No. They're more afraid of the far left. Those companies know perfectly well the firestorm they'll generate if they dare to stray an inch to the right of the Twitter-approved 'correct' position.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    kinabalu said:

    We agreed on this before in theory. The best single thing to do in order to disincentivize parental opt-out would be to increase the state education budget to a level which brings the funding per pupil up to the same level as the average private school.

    But 'in theory' is the operative term here - because in all honesty what do you rate the chances of this ever happening?

    That makes the assumption that sending the kids to private school is for their education rather than making sure they are not subjected to mixing with the "wrong type" of kids - or perhaps for making sure they mix with the "right type".
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,695
    In the great tea culture wars I require guidance on my choice of brew:

    Clipper, Fair Trade, Organic, Plastic-Free Teabags. Clearly good.

    But it is Earl Grey. Apparently now bad.

    So am I woke or a fascist?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,509

    And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.

    And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
    Just replace every statue in the country with one of Nelson Mandela. Job done.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    It's like the Presidency has been in the hands of a pub boor. It's beginning to seem though that some of his boorish supporters are starting to notice it isn't a good way to run the show.
    I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.

    Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    In the great tea culture wars I require guidance on my choice of brew:

    Clipper, Fair Trade, Organic, Plastic-Free Teabags. Clearly good.

    But it is Earl Grey. Apparently now bad.

    So am I woke or a fascist?

    I'd advise drinking Barry's Tea (gold blend, in the red boxes, loose leaf) because it's superior tea.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,739
    edited June 2020

    I am advising companies not to rise to the bait, because it will end up with mischaracterised polarisation (to both sides) that will do them, and us, no good.

    That's why I said earlier I ended up disagreeing with basically everyone on Twitter on this issue.
    Are you a social media marketing expert? I thought you worked on infrastructure projects.

    Social Media Marketing experts actually have a strategy for dealing with this type of issue. Yorkshire tea and PG Tips are both following it.

    And the fact that you as a completely unqualified person seem to be happy tell companies how to handle something in direct contradiction to what I suspect very expensive advice has told them to do (looking at the time frame between the initial post and Yorkshire Teas reply) tells me an awful lot..

    My only question is why would someone who claims not to be racist gets involved in an argument that was started by racists when it has absolutely nothing to do with him. I mean I know everyone is bored but there are easier places (like here) to have a discussion
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,842

    Golly, I hadn't realised that they were thinking quite that far outside the envelope re. Princes St. Actually in Glasgow they seem to have come up with quite a decent cunning plan, to cover over the M8 where it runs through Charing Cross and turn it into an open pedestrian space. Whether that'll come off now in these straitened times, who knows?

    I'm not entirely anti brutalism, I quite like the South Bank for its absolute unwillingness to ingratiate for example, and the likes of Poundbury leave me a little queasy.

    edit: I see the brave new plan for Princes St is from the 60s, still wouldn't put it past them today though.
    Thankfully you'd never get away with it today. It's not stopping some horrors still being built, but they tend not to be demolishing beautiful frontages to do it.

    I respectfully diverge from you (and @williamglenn) on the subject of Poundbury, because for all it's air of silliness, people do want to live and work there, because the environment at least tries to be beautiful.

    What would be good I think is some objective standard of beauty in buildings based on what is naturally appealing to the human eye. We instinctively prefer lightness and colour to darkness and grey - probably because it evokes cleanliness. We usually prefer ornament to lack of ornament, because it signifies effort and expense. We prefer deeper window recesses, probably because they signify thicker walls and therefore greater safety and security. We prefer stone, brick and other materials that connect a building with its landscape, to concrete.

    If we can get this down, we can probably judge objectively that a monstrous pile of dark grey concrete, pebble-dashing, thin metal framed windows, with wind-swept overpasses, never looked good, isn't going to start looking good, isn't going to 'come back into fashion', doesn't deserve preservation.

    At the moment, Historic Environment Scotland (I think that's the agency) and English Heritage frown heavily on new buildings done in the style of old buildings. I think that's a mistake. I love the modern extension to the National Museum in Edinburgh - but would we really be sorry if the 1960's crap on Princes Street disappeared behind a plausible Georgian pastiche?

  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    TOPPING said:

    They u-turned in <24hrs. Go back and listen to the press conference. Boris was aghast that anyone could suggest the police might be involved. And then less than a day later, policy changed.

    Could it have been the Telegraph that asked the question? Of course. But they didn't. It was some lefty online rag.

    Do you think that Ancelotti should have gone to Arsenal instead of Everton?</p>
    Wait a minute - I watched Boris' address to the nation announcing the lockdown, and it clearly mentioned that the police would have powers to enforce it, so the exchange you're referring to must have happened before it was implemented.

    Even if you're correct - which I'm prepared to grant because I honestly don't remember what was said in every press conference - do you really think the government wouldn't have reconsidered the necessary means of enforcement as soon as it arose as a practical problem? I don't quite see that question as an irreplaceable service to the nation - and not one that outweighs their utter shitness ever since.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    China will have this to deal with about its Mao statues at some point (The communist party won't last forever). I doubt any of us will be around to see it though.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    edited June 2020

    No. They're more afraid of the far left. Those companies know perfectly well the firestorm they'll generate if they dare to stray an inch to the right of the Twitter-approved 'correct' position.
    One tweet can be all it takes to finish you...see Crossfit...the CEO sent a one word tweet, and it is has totally torpedoed them. Most of the corporate tie ins they had immediately ditched them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    fox327 said:

    This may highlight a problem within the government - a lack of scientific expertise. Does the government have to take on trust everything the scientists say because it has no scientific expertise of its own? Does the government have to believe everything that lawyers say because they are lawyers? Sir Keir Starmer is a lawyer. Does the government agree with what he says?

    No, the government has its own legal experts, including the Lord Chancellor and the Attorney General. They take primary responsibility for advising the government on legal matters, including Brexit.

    There is a culture in the UK that scientists are experts who are not part of the select group from which senior politicians are drawn. Margaret Thatcher was an exception, but she did go to Oxford and later became a lawyer. Therefore, an Oxford Classics graduate would not dream of disagreeing with scientific advisors - it simply would not be done by a gentleman like Boris Johnson.

    Consequently, the government has lost control of the government to a group of disparate scientists who have who knows what personal agendas. Perhaps the time has come for the Chief Scientific Advisor to be a member of the government, i.e. a minister, even a cabinet minister. That way the government could get the benefit of scientific advice while remaining in control of the development of policy. The problem is that not many Conservative MPs have a suitable background but there are a few, e.g. Steve Baker.
    Just mulling over what you say ...

    I'm not sure that Mr Johnson would even recognise that scientists were there to be disagreed with, so much as ignored except when some of the bits they said suited him. 'Scientists on tap not on top' was what hsi hero Mr Churchill said, did he not?

    Also, the Conservative Party policy over the last few decades bas been to , erm, downgrade and dispose of in-house scientific expertise - Royal Signals and Radar Establishment, Laboratory of the Government Chemist, Forensic Science Service all come to mind.

    But you are right, there is no CSA position comparable with the Lord Chancellor -
    though I also wonder about what happens when the scientist is advising outwith his or her realm, apart from understanding how science and the scientific method work in general. A biologist might find it hard to judge on say climatology. Does the biologist then act as a politician? But one of Mrs T's greater achievements was reacting strongly to the ozone layer crisis. Would a Balliol classicist have been as quick as a Somerville chemist, I wonder?

    You might know better than i how well Solly Zuckermann functioned as an advisor with a research backgroind in primate anatomy and society.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    ydoethur said:

    Yes. The problem is that neither party is interested in doing it. That has fuck all to do with private schools and everything to do with the Treasury which refuses to raise taxes or cut spending on unnecessary bureaucracy. A great many problems in education, including funding shortages, would be solved tomorrow by abolishing the DfE and OFQUAL, neither of whom are any use at all (as demonstrated when they were ignored over school closures) but both of whom soak up vast sums of money.

    That said, LEAs being hopelessly corrupt and incompetent and being more interested in creaming off money for their lovely Mercedes cars rather than spending it on children's education doesn't help either...
    OFQUAL's annual budget is less than £20m, I think, and OFSTED though more expensive, and arguably of equal inutility, around £130m; the DoE's claimed administrative spend is around £500m.

    So not transformative in cash terms.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    That makes the assumption that sending the kids to private school is for their education rather than making sure they are not subjected to mixing with the "wrong type" of kids - or perhaps for making sure they mix with the "right type".
    Good point. Because the educational 'gated community' aspect is surely a big part of it. Another pernicious macro effect. But to stress - I totally understand why individuals who can afford it make this choice and I would never criticize somebody's personal decision to do so. I just think the country as a whole would be much better off in several important ways if nobody did.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    kinabalu said:

    I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.

    Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.
    He'd definitely be one of these tossers who never buys his round and takes 7/8 drunk pints back to the bar saying it was 'off'.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
    Guess we should add Muhammed and Buddha to the list too.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,695

    I'd advise drinking Barry's Tea (gold blend, in the red boxes, loose leaf) because it's superior tea.
    You think it has anything to do with what the tea tastes like?

    A re-education camp awaits you...
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    One tweet can be all it takes to finish you...see Crossfit...the CEO sent a one word tweet, and it is has totally torpedoed them. Most of the corporate tie ins they had immediately ditched them.
    The mob doesn't like your statues ... they'll destroy them.
    The mob doesn't like your tweet ... they'll destroy your company.
    The mob doesn't like your country .....................
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    kinabalu said:

    I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.

    Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.
    Not exactly alone.
    He's perhaps more like the school bully, with his gang following, that the majority have finally got utterly fed up with. And is now due a good kicking.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    In the great tea culture wars I require guidance on my choice of brew:

    Clipper, Fair Trade, Organic, Plastic-Free Teabags. Clearly good.

    But it is Earl Grey. Apparently now bad.

    So am I woke or a fascist?

    Earl Grey tea is the scrapings off the tea factory floor, that is why they add flavourings to it. I quite like it, but the fact it is marketed as a luxury product is hilarious.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    Honda has said it is dealing with a cyber-attack that is impacting its operations around the world.

    "Honda can confirm that a cyber-attack has taken place on the Honda network," the Japanese car-maker said in a statement.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,538
    A "Miss Hitler" beauty pageant entrant and her ex-partner have been jailed for being members of the banned far-right terrorist group National Action.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-52965672
  • eekeek Posts: 29,739
    edited June 2020

    You think it has anything to do with what the tea tastes like?

    A re-education camp awaits you...
    He's drinking Earl Grey - while I actually like that blend, I know plenty of people who regard those who drink it as beyond the pale and pretentious hassocks
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355

    Casino Royale: Freelance online purveyor of unsolicited pro-bono brand consultancy services
    Yes, well I am a consultant. And I enjoy being devil's advocate and provoking an argument. I live in hope somebody picks it up and at least thinks about it behind the scenes.

    But it was probably a mistake. The choices on Twitter seemed to be you could be branded as a fellow fascist, independent racist or a fellow Left-wing warrior.

    Nothing else. So probably best to duck out as there's no room for nuance.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Earl Grey tea is the scrapings off the tea factory floor, that is why they add flavourings to it. I quite like it, but the fact it is marketed as a luxury product is hilarious.
    That is quite the stupidest piece of misinformation I have ever seen anywhere on the internet. Well done.
This discussion has been closed.