I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
And how does that relate to what Casino_Royale said?
Now that Patel and Sunak are leading the Indian community off the labour reservation, they can expect the same treatment as the Jewish community recently - minority non grata.
Witness labour MP Mark Hendrick saying Indian Asians are 'over reprented' in senior medical and dentistry jobs.
I refer you to my post yesterday saying exactly this, which was then dismissed by a few of our lefty commenters (though thankfully not even close to all). I'm genuinely worried that racism towards Indians is going to be stepped up by the left who will see us as enemies of their agenda just as Jews are.
Aaaand.. that's how things like these protests, whilst starting off well-intentioned, end up worsening race relations.
And Adonis must know about the statue of James II outside the National Gallery and the equestrian one of Charles I on the other side of Trafalgar Square too.
Colston's company - 80000 slaves? Pah! That's nothing on the Royal African Company.
Incidentally a lot of the Leverhulme Trust money comes from what was slavery in all but name in the Belgian Congo where William Lever had a brutal fiefdom.
Charles II and, it must be said, Cromwell headed governemnts which sent plenty of indentured servants to the West Indies - as good as slaves: Irish and Scottish PoWs from the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and the Wars of the Covenant.
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
This is why mob bandwagons must be resisted. And violent disturbance and criminal damage be very firmly punished.
I'm not a fan of Colston. But its not where they start, but where they finish, thats the problem.
Churchill? Cromwell?
Grey was also the PM who, I think rammed through the Great Reform act of 1832 that started to open up the franchise to ordinary people. In the teeth of opposition from the tories under the Duke of Wellington
Very important point. Glad to see it being made. If the most affluent and influential members of society are fully invested in something - e.g. state education - it will lead over time to an increase in standards. This is one of the strongest arguments against private schools.
I tend to agree with Casino - It's far more likely there'd be a boom in home-schooling, private tuition, coaching and mentoring....
Certainly if you're talking about 'the most affluent and influential'.
Homeschooling with 4-6 other children and teachers paid for by the parents of those children, perhaps?
What is happening about that in eg Sweden where holeschooling may lead to the State taking your children away?
Very important point. Glad to see it being made. If the most affluent and influential members of society are fully invested in something - e.g. state education - it will lead over time to an increase in standards. This is one of the strongest arguments against private schools.
I tend to agree with Casino - It's far more likely there'd be a boom in home-schooling, private tuition, coaching and mentoring....
Certainly if you're talking about 'the most affluent and influential'.
Homeschooling with 4-6 other children and teachers paid for by the parents of those children, perhaps?
What is happening about that in eg Sweden where holeschooling may lead to the State taking your children away?
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
This is why mob bandwagons must be resisted. And violent disturbance and criminal damage be very firmly punished.
I'm not a fan of Colston. But its not where they start, but where they finish, thats the problem.
Churchill? Cromwell?
Grey was also the PM who, I think rammed through the Great Reform act of 1832 that started to open up the franchise to ordinary people. In the teeth of opposition from the tories under the Duke of Wellington
Yeah, that’s what the inscription commemorates on the monument itself.
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
A show on Bbc2 at 9pm tonight called 'A House Through Time' about the history of a 19th Century house in Bristol - wonder if it mentions the bloke the statue was of
Has there ever been a time where, as in the case with Education at the moment, where the Secretary of State and his/her shadow have both been so pathetically lightweight? Both of them are utterly hopeless, and yet have the future generation in their hands ffs!
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
Equivalent here, therefore, being incomers who in places refuse to integrate, insist on living in their own cultural bubble.
I understand the point but tbh I think this is more what @Casino_Royale was keen to stress he is NOT alluding to.
Am hoping we will clarify but of course no big deal. There are one or two posters on here who I sense are unpleasantly racist but he is not one of them.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?
Because the fear would be that a lack of response would be seen by people as tacit approval... Just replace the name Laura Towler with Tommy Robinson and think through how a brand would need to react.
A show on Bbc2 at 9pm tonight called 'A House Through Time' about the history of a 19th Century house in Bristol - wonder if it mentions the bloke the statue was of
Might be worth a watch, the one on the house in Liverpool was very good.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?
Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?
Interesting conversation with the head coach of my gym on their distancing plans.
Currently they are running classes of 5 outside.
They are gearing to be ready by July to have classes inside with 3m x 4m per class member, with a further 2m on top of that between rows in the class. Plus the doors and loading bay open front and back for strong ventilation.
Obviously with appropriate wipedown etc.
Membership numbers are now down just over 15% since Feb - this with a good online training and social programme running.
There has also been a fair bit of work done in the gym in the interim to improve the fit out.
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
People in Gibraltar were setting up British pubs festooned with union jacks? Whatever next.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said he was taking the precaution after the number of daily new cases of coronavirus rose to around 100.
Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said he was taking the precaution after the number of daily new cases of coronavirus rose to around 100.
We're still miles higher than that.
Yeah, but they used to be miles lower than that after their first peak.
Very important point. Glad to see it being made. If the most affluent and influential members of society are fully invested in something - e.g. state education - it will lead over time to an increase in standards. This is one of the strongest arguments against private schools.
I tend to agree with Casino - It's far more likely there'd be a boom in home-schooling, private tuition, coaching and mentoring....
Certainly if you're talking about 'the most affluent and influential'.
Homeschooling with 4-6 other children and teachers paid for by the parents of those children, perhaps?
What is happening about that in eg Sweden where holeschooling may lead to the State taking your children away?
An interesting discussion about commercial property and "the market rate". The revolutionary thing about this pandemic in UK retail has been the explosion in online. No, I don't mean getting Tesco or Amazon to ship it to you, I mean going to Heinz and ordering Beanz for delivery. Direct To Consumer from all kinds of unlikely brands and businesses is a genuinely fascinating development.
What does it mean? If it continues, then sell your shares in the supermarkets. Take someone like Morrisons. An uptick in sales at huge costs - they've had to recruit 25k+ new staff, throw money at a rapid expansion in online, yet their overall sales are down because fuel. Once big brands start doing direct sales then any retail is in trouble - as noted by intu getting the receivers on standby for their prospective bankruptcy as the Q2 rent round throws their tenants under the bus and drags them with it.
As noted, investors are happy to see property shuttered rather than recognise that it's worth far less than book. Rochdale town centre an early victim to this with so many shops closed and not re-let as the rent asked for was £stupid.
We're going to have to reposess and repurpose these buildings. CPO to wrest them from their investor, let the nice accomodation out to people, peppercorn rent or more accommodation for the former shop. My Brother has just started the conversion of the shop attached to his house in rural Aberdeenshire - the old dear who was the survivor of the family who ran the shop and lived next door dies, he bought both, will make for a spacious house once all converted and knocked through.
I still don't *get* people's assumed right not to have to walk past buildings or art that they don't like and feel some disapprobation. I dislike virtually everything built in the 1960's and 70's. More than that, it boils my blood that an elite of sneering architects and taste leaders inflicted brutalist architecture on the lower classes and pulled down beautiful Georgian and Victorian buildings with such zeal. However, I don't feel it's my right to stir up a mob and tear them down. Just deal with it. Get on with life.
Are you me? Hardly a stone would remain standing upon stone if I could have my way with the aesthetic nightmares blighting so many of our cities. Their sheer ugliness causes more psychological harm on a daily basis than an ideologically-incorrect statue ever could. In fact, if you read the justifications modern architects come up with for their vainglorious carbuncles, you often find that their analyses work beautifully on the level of concept and ideology, but fail miserably in the physical, visual, and human sphere ... which is where their buildings actually fucking exist!
High density housing and a thriving commercial space in one. This is how we should regenerate town centres.
Do we need a Bomber Harris before we can do that stuff?
In fairness there are quite a lot of housing-business unit combos that have gone up in my area of Kent (though obviously not as beautiful as the Dresden example), I should know as I live in one. It does seem this is seen as a way forward in many areas.
That said, there has to be a balance between the needs of the residents and the needs of the businesses. Most shops these days, for example, blast out music during their opening hours, potentially not great for those living on the floor immediately above etc.
I've been thinking about this a lot recently being locked down in a small, once beautiful, still partly beautiful, Scottish town. I think what might be needed is a bonfire of commercial landlordism (not a real bonfire), and for owner-occupiers to unite both shop and house, renting any additional accommodation to others.
The High Street is very paint-peely. There are many retail units empty on the High Street. One empty shop is advertising a rent of £30,000 PA for its two floors. How on earth is a small business in a small town to make that rent, after they've done up the shop, bought stock, paid staff, paid taxes, etc.?
On a more positive note, immediately off the High Street, where rents are clearly lower, the situation is a lot better with many independent shops seeming to make a go of it.
The problem here, as I see it, is commercial landlords charging exorbitant rent, not seeming to care very much whether the building is occupied, and not looking after the fabric of the building (partly because the building often isn't generating income). Perhaps I'm wrong, but surely the tax system could be usefully employed to encourage more beneficial behaviour.
Most of these shops will be let on an FRI (full repairing and insuring) basis which puts the obligation on the tenants. The more sophisticated will have an obligation to paint externally every 3-4 years. But legal obligations are one thing and practicalities another. Most of the tenants will have marginal businesses at best (even in normal times) and imposing a dilapidations claim on them may well drive them out of business leaving the landlord with a vacant property and a potential rates bill in due course. Many landlords will sensibly choose to turn a blind eye until the end of the lease then do a deal with the tenant and pocket the money. The fundamental problem is that these properties do not generate a profit for anyone because the businesses in them struggle and generally fail within relatively short periods of time. This results in dilapidation and a reluctance to invest further capital. We have to accept that much of our current retail space will no longer be used as such and facilitate its conversion to more productive uses.
The actual issue is that the rent is £30,000 and the property was probably sold to a pension fund on a combination of that rent and the desired yield.
The pension fund would then prefer to keep the property empty rather than discovering that the actual market rent isn't £30,000 it's £10,000 which would require them to consolidate a loss.
Who in God's name does such an accounting fiction benefit ?
My partner was looking for commercial property to rent over the New Year in our village. A ground floor of a semi detached house was perfect. Was quoted a frankly ludicrous rent. When asked if they would negotiate told no. Because "that's the market rate." When asked why, if that was the market rate, had the previous occupant, a busy and competent hairdresser gone bust and it stood empty for 2 years? No answer was forthcoming. It's still vacant.
Market rents will adjust to the changed market. Those off the high street locations will be turned into residential once the HS locations are forced to drop their rents.
Pension fund members will stump up the difference where they are the owners.
States in US outside NY and NJ rising too. Those 2 coming off their massive peaks is disguising the overall figures. America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.
And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
This is why mob bandwagons must be resisted. And violent disturbance and criminal damage be very firmly punished.
I'm not a fan of Colston. But its not where they start, but where they finish, thats the problem.
Churchill? Cromwell?
Grey was also the PM who, I think rammed through the Great Reform act of 1832 that started to open up the franchise to ordinary people. In the teeth of opposition from the tories under the Duke of Wellington
Yeah, that’s what the inscription commemorates on the monument itself.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
People in Gibraltar were setting up British pubs festooned with union jacks? Whatever next.
98.97% British on an 87.9% turnout.
Beaten by the Falklands mind, 99.8% on a 92% turnout !
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.
And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
Wait till they hear about the role the banks played..
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
And of course there are a whole range of diseases which different ethnicities suffer from disproportionately. Also, I presume using the same Gruarduian journalist logic, Britain must be a massively sexist country, against men.....no? I mean it clearly must be, otherwise why are so many more men dying of this than woman? It is clearly structurally sexist. And most of all, ageist.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.
And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
The worse problem is what happens when a different mob decides to tear down Marx's grave and the argument is settled in a pre-law fashion.
Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
They're looking out for their bottom line, and they determined that it'd be better for their brand image to explicitly denounce a facist than remain silent. So it was FREE SPEECH provoked by the incentives of the FREE MARKET. Sorry if that upsets you, snowflake.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
And of course there are a whole range of diseases which different ethnicities suffer from disproportionately. Also, I presume using the same Gruarduian journalist logic, Britain must be a massively sexist country, against men.....no? I mean it clearly must be, otherwise why are so many more men dying of this than woman? It is clearly structurally sexist. And most of all, ageist.
I doubt they could even understand that if you explained it to them slowly.
In case @Casino_Royale thinks I am indulging in unnecessary levity about his situation, I ought to make clear that I sympathise, and was attempting to make light of the situation.
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?
Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."
The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.
And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
Wait till they hear about the role the banks played..
Could get a bit dicey when they find out rich Jewish people were also involved.
And of course to the hard left, the slave bit is only part of it, it is as much about the idea of the wealth and how it was "taken" from the people etc.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths. .
You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I am aware of how it started. I'd have ignored it. There's no need to engage with far-right morons on Twitter, or anywhere else. I am opposed to them.
Yorkshire Tea took the bait, and then said "please don't buy our tea again", which I thought unprofessional. Then Owen Jones switched in (a hugely political person, who's posted a list of other statues for removal today on his feed) saying he was going to switch from PG Tips, and then PG Tips waded in saying 'don't worry, Owen, you can enjoy us both guilt-free'.
I cautioned against this. I said that however well-intentioned they are they'd end up being seen to pick a side and it was better for businesses to steer clear of politics. Because having culture wars extend into the corporate world - ending up with the politicisation of absolutely everything - won't end well for businesses or consumers.
In recent days, I've posted that I disagree with a mob tearing down a statue, would like to hear from the real BAME community (in all its diversity) to hear what they really think about things like this and similar, rather than taking the protestors rhetoric at face value, and said I'd listen sensitively to the results. I've questioned the wisdom of companies wading into this arena. I've used analogies of being accommodating when in dialogue with one other, and avoiding jumping to offence. I've challenged lazy thinking and assumptions.
For this (refusing to accept there aren't shade of greys) I've been accused of racism, now also insinuated by you as well.
If that's how you engage with me, what language do you use for real racists?
States in US outside NY and NJ rising too. Those 2 coming off their massive peaks is disguising the overall figures. America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.
Indeed. However what got me was "the market rate" insistence. There is no market rate, as there are no comparable properties in our village. And if you can't rent it anyway... The bloke clearly meant "what we got away with charging in the past" to be the market rate.
In case @Casino_Royale thinks I am indulging in unnecessary levity about his situation, I ought to make clear that I sympathise, and was attempting to make light of the situation.
And would urge him to stick around.
Thanks Nigel.
I'm not actually going anywhere, I'm just saying I won't engage with anyone who accuses me of being a racist until they apologise.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
Being capitalist companies I suspect they focus on making money first - clearly activists from the left aren't so morally repugnant to the brands typical customer.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths. .
You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths. .
You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
All religious buildings of all faiths better go, because none are free from sin and usually funded by those who made money in ways which are now not socially acceptable.
I have this sneaking suspicion that the mob though again will have slightly different rules for different faiths.
States in US outside NY and NJ rising too. Those 2 coming off their massive peaks is disguising the overall figures. America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.
Indeed. However what got me was "the market rate" insistence. There is no market rate, as there are no comparable properties in our village. And if you can't rent it anyway... The bloke clearly meant "what we got away with charging in the past" to be the market rate.
Oops. Replied to myself not @MattW . On a completely different topic. Time for a walk.perhaps.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?
Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?
I am advising companies not to rise to the bait, because it will end up with mischaracterised polarisation (to both sides) that will do them, and us, no good.
That's why I said earlier I ended up disagreeing with basically everyone on Twitter on this issue.
I cautioned against this. I said that however well-intentioned they are they'd end up being seen to pick a side and it was better for businesses to steer clear of politics. Because having culture wars extend into the corporate world - ending up with the politicisation of absolutely everything - won't end well for businesses or consumers.
Government increasing losing the plot totally on unlocking. Looks like a dog's breakfast of personal ministerial whims rather than a plan.
Schools not to reopen for all primary as planned. Hancock now talking about "September at earliest" for secondary.
If we get an autumn wave then we could see many pupils not being in school until next spring. That would be an entire year at home.
Yet we plan to reopen shops, beer gardens, theme parks etc etc. Even talk of holidays in EU from July.
I don't think those things are necessarily contradictory. I suspect the chances of the virus spreading outside is very small. Unfortunately schools have to work indoors. I don't see why businesses and consumers should suffer just because we think they are less important than kids going to school.
For schools, I wonder if something like alternating weeks will be needed for some time whereby half the kids go one week and half the kids go the next? It won't be ideal, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Where is the evidence that kids pass this virus on? Or even get it themselves in all but a minuscule minority?
Or have I missed something?
None whatsoever. Schools should never have been closed.
I understand closing them was only put in at the last minute.
Of course there is evidence that children can both get the virus - the ONS survey has found no statistically significant differences between the percentages infected in different age groups - and pass it on.
I agree, they can get the virus, but they very rarely suffer from it. They are about as likely to get struck by lightning as to die from COVID, if they have no comorbities.
Whether they pass it on to any significant extent is not clear. A study of one 9-year old boy in the French Alps had the boy visiting three schools whilst symptomatic, but the researchers found no evidence of transmission of the virus to other pupils in follow-up interviews and testing. There are lots of similar studies ongoing.
But until there is overwhelming evidence that children are transmitting the virus and causing a significant number of deaths overall, schools should be open, just as they are in most other European countries.
Though I know, as you say, facts don't get in the way of your opinions.
The facts are equivocal.
What isn't equivocal is the massive damage this is doing to kids' education, especially poorer kids, and to parents' jobs if they can't afford child care.
Also to abused children, who need school to get away from their difficult family situations for a few hours a day. Oh, and hungry ones, who rely on free school meals to feed them.
Closing schools was a disaster. If this virus affected children the way it does old people, there would be a case for it. But there's no case for keeping them closed when other European countries are reopening them without problems.
Much of it comes down to attitude. We've piled kids high and taught them cheap in this country. It amused me to hear a Danish primary school teacher on R5L some weeks ago explaining how they had re-opened. After detailing additional measures, she was asked how many kids in her class now. 15. Oh wow! How many before? (Obviously confused)...15.
Abolish private schools and you will be amazed how quickly class sizes come down in the state sector.
Or alternatively, cut class sizes in the state sector and watch as private schools close for lack of pupils?
Honestly, some people are really dumb.
Your solution would increase class sizes, at least in the short term, not reduce them.
We agreed on this before in theory. The best single thing to do in order to disincentivize parental opt-out would be to increase the state education budget to a level which brings the funding per pupil up to the same level as the average private school.
But 'in theory' is the operative term here - because in all honesty what do you rate the chances of this ever happening?
Yes. The problem is that neither party is interested in doing it. That has fuck all to do with private schools and everything to do with the Treasury which refuses to raise taxes or cut spending on unnecessary bureaucracy. A great many problems in education, including funding shortages, would be solved tomorrow by abolishing the DfE and OFQUAL, neither of whom are any use at all (as demonstrated when they were ignored over school closures) but both of whom soak up vast sums of money.
That said, LEAs being hopelessly corrupt and incompetent and being more interested in creaming off money for their lovely Mercedes cars rather than spending it on children's education doesn't help either.
Quite so. Not happening. I agree with @OnlyLivingBoy that there would be more chance of it happening if the private option was disincentivized out of existence, to all intents and purposes, but there we run into the turbulence. Perhaps we can just agree on the obvious super short-term step of removing the tax breaks.
Whatever, we do not want a repetition of our last tumble through this which ended with you calling me "ill-informed and riddled with prejudice" and me retorting that you were a "purveyor of fatuous banalities". What a night that was.
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?
Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."
The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."
is why.
Ah, of course - without them the government would never have thought of using the police to enforce the law. These lefty rags are so useful after all!
Do you think they're in favour of the police enforcing the law against vandalism now?
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.
And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
The worse problem is what happens when a different mob decides to tear down Marx's grave and the argument is settled in a pre-law fashion.
Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.
Quite....and wee Owen Jones will be back on twitter claiming this is horrendous behaviour, what has the country come to, clearly the police are political and doing the governments bidding of enabling the far right....while having cheered on the Bristol mob.
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.
And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
The worse problem is what happens when a different mob decides to tear down Marx's grave and the argument is settled in a pre-law fashion.
Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.
When I was at university, there was a... group of very hard left nutters who actually went round being physical with people they didn't like.
The accademici attualy protected them - it was early days of CCTV, and they tried to get the Student Union to not hand over evidence of the assaults to the police.
Then, one day, the leader of this bunch of wonderful people found out that I had some Polish ancestry. So he started going on about how Katyn had been great and should have been done more.
Loud music was playing - so I said "eh?"
He repeated himself somewhat louder. I again said "eh?"
On the third repetition, it seems that members of the Polish Society, sitting at the table behind him, heard what was said.
The next day, the tame academics demanded the CCTV footage......
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths. .
You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
All religious buildings of all faiths better go, because none are free from sin and usually funded by those who made money in ways which are now not socially acceptable.
I have this sneaking suspicion that the mob though again will have slightly different rules for different faiths.
You seem to have a touching belief in the rationality and rule following of mobs. Do you think it's all a big conspiracy whipped up by Antifa and Yorkshire Tea?
Government increasing losing the plot totally on unlocking. Looks like a dog's breakfast of personal ministerial whims rather than a plan.
Schools not to reopen for all primary as planned. Hancock now talking about "September at earliest" for secondary.
If we get an autumn wave then we could see many pupils not being in school until next spring. That would be an entire year at home.
Yet we plan to reopen shops, beer gardens, theme parks etc etc. Even talk of holidays in EU from July.
I don't think those things are necessarily contradictory. I suspect the chances of the virus spreading outside is very small. Unfortunately schools have to work indoors. I don't see why businesses and consumers should suffer just because we think they are less important than kids going to school.
For schools, I wonder if something like alternating weeks will be needed for some time whereby half the kids go one week and half the kids go the next? It won't be ideal, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Where is the evidence that kids pass this virus on? Or even get it themselves in all but a minuscule minority?
Or have I missed something?
None whatsoever. Schools should never have been closed.
I understand closing them was only put in at the last minute.
Of course there is evidence that children can both get the virus - the ONS survey has found no statistically significant differences between the percentages infected in different age groups - and pass it on.
I agree, they can get the virus, but they very rarely suffer from it. They are about as likely to get struck by lightning as to die from COVID, if they have no comorbities.
Whether they pass it on to any significant extent is not clear. A study of one 9-year old boy in the French Alps had the boy visiting three schools whilst symptomatic, but the researchers found no evidence of transmission of the virus to other pupils in follow-up interviews and testing. There are lots of similar studies ongoing.
But until there is overwhelming evidence that children are transmitting the virus and causing a significant number of deaths overall, schools should be open, just as they are in most other European countries.
Though I know, as you say, facts don't get in the way of your opinions.
The facts are equivocal.
What isn't equivocal is the massive damage this is doing to kids' education, especially poorer kids, and to parents' jobs if they can't afford child care.
Also to abused children, who need school to get away from their difficult family situations for a few hours a day. Oh, and hungry ones, who rely on free school meals to feed them.
Closing schools was a disaster. If this virus affected children the way it does old people, there would be a case for it. But there's no case for keeping them closed when other European countries are reopening them without problems.
Much of it comes down to attitude. We've piled kids high and taught them cheap in this country. It amused me to hear a Danish primary school teacher on R5L some weeks ago explaining how they had re-opened. After detailing additional measures, she was asked how many kids in her class now. 15. Oh wow! How many before? (Obviously confused)...15.
Abolish private schools and you will be amazed how quickly class sizes come down in the state sector.
Why? The Education budget would remain the same, and you'd have 7-10% extra pupils and no extra funding. They'd increase. And some teachers in the private sector would be put out of work too.
You might argue that the middle-class would then agitate for a higher education budget, as indeed they might, but the Government would have even less money.
It's far more likely there'd be a boom in home-schooling, private tuition, coaching and mentoring.
Policy in this country is largely set by the preferences of the upper middle class, especially on issues that they care about disproportionately, like education. We know that they favour smaller class sizes, because that is what the private sector offers them to obtain their fees. If they were forced to send their kids to state schools I have no doubt that the weight of influential public opinion would soon channel more resources to education, lowering class sizes and raising standards. It will never happen, I am not even saying it should happen, but I have no doubt that it would have a net positive effect on education outcomes in this country.
I think this is a myth. There's no shortage of such opinions at the moment, and even most of the upper middle class do send their children to state schools.
Where they don't they move to a house in the right catchment area, or leverage other advantages to get the best outcome for their children.
That's my point, state schools need those sharp elbowed people pushing to raise budgets and standards, not lobbying for tax cuts since they don't use public services.
Those who sharp-elbows can question authority and challenge decisions better, and more articulately, but they cannot magic up extra budgets. It would be too hard and difficult to do it and it would be much easier for them to focus on their own kids.
I expect you'd just see increased class polarisation in the state sector and further spikes in house prices in certain areas.
Yes - like a certain state school in Hampstead.
You are completely free to send your children there.
Providing you live in a multi-million pound house. Or live in the servants quarters of one of the really big ones....
Why does the fact that there is and always will be inequality mean we should not seek to reduce it?
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?
Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."
The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."
is why.
Ah, of course - without them the government would never have thought of using the police to enforce the law. These lefty rags are so useful after all!
Do you think they're in favour of the police enforcing the law against vandalism now?
They u-turned in <24hrs. Go back and listen to the press conference. Boris was aghast that anyone could suggest the police might be involved. And then less than a day later, policy changed.
Could it have been the Telegraph that asked the question? Of course. But they didn't. It was some lefty online rag.
Do you think that Ancelotti should have gone to Arsenal instead of Everton?
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.
No. They're more afraid of the far left. Those companies know perfectly well the firestorm they'll generate if they dare to stray an inch to the right of the Twitter-approved 'correct' position.
We agreed on this before in theory. The best single thing to do in order to disincentivize parental opt-out would be to increase the state education budget to a level which brings the funding per pupil up to the same level as the average private school.
But 'in theory' is the operative term here - because in all honesty what do you rate the chances of this ever happening?
That makes the assumption that sending the kids to private school is for their education rather than making sure they are not subjected to mixing with the "wrong type" of kids - or perhaps for making sure they mix with the "right type".
I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.
And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
Just replace every statue in the country with one of Nelson Mandela. Job done.
That's swings of 8.5% and 6.5% away from Trump in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Senior retired Republicans are queuing up to be negative about Trump or even endorse Biden. But the White House is trailing a big "unity" address to the nation this week. The Donald, he can do anything. From the great polariser to the great unifier? Something "great" anyway. He's the greatest and realest, and nothing like a loser or a fake. He can be the unifiers' unifier if he chooses. Best of luck with that. Not sure I've ever seen a US leader so busted this far out.
Yep. Too late now. Some people are on the pitch. The fat lady is fingering her mike. Coronavirus was a golden opportunity to reinvent himself as a credible president. Indeed I was slightly scared that he would somehow manage to do so - it was his one clear chance to head off the big defeat in November that I have long thought inevitable.
But I needn't have worried. The situation merely exposed his almost comical limitations further. He simply does not have the capability to speak or lead in a 'national interest' manner. When he tries it looks and sounds ridiculous because it is so clearly phony. And on top of this you have the glaring lack of competence which is hard to hide when there is a genuine crisis on.
So, sure, he may have another go at 'presidential' but the result will be the same. It will come over as false. Few will be swayed and of those who are it will as likely be the other way. For his hardcore supporters it might still be a case of "To know him is to love him," but for everybody else the opposite now applies. He appears, he speaks, he net repels.
His best re-election strategy in my view would be one of minimalist blandness from here until polling day. Keep his head down. Stay out of the news. But of course it has no chance of being adopted. Instead it will be double down on Boast, Blame, Bluster. Chances of this securing many votes other than his base and those outside it who would vote Republican regardless? Slim to zero. He's toast.
I kind of agree that it's a bit late for him to start acting presidential now. Part of Trump's appeal is that his supporters think that he "tells it likes it is". That doesn't mean he doesn't lie, but when he lies it is entirely in keeping with his character. That's also partly why things like "grab 'em by the pussy" weren't fatal for him. It was obnoxious, but consistent. He's a consistently obnoxious guy. To suddenly switch now would probably turn off his core vote, without convincing anyone else. His best chance is to try and reduce the numbers voting for the other guy, by whatever means. Like everyone says, it's probably going to get really dirty (unless he gives up and starts his own Trumped Up News Channel: "All fake, all of the time!").
It's like the Presidency has been in the hands of a pub boor. It's beginning to seem though that some of his boorish supporters are starting to notice it isn't a good way to run the show.
I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?
Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?
I am advising companies not to rise to the bait, because it will end up with mischaracterised polarisation (to both sides) that will do them, and us, no good.
That's why I said earlier I ended up disagreeing with basically everyone on Twitter on this issue.
Are you a social media marketing expert? I thought you worked on infrastructure projects.
Social Media Marketing experts actually have a strategy for dealing with this type of issue. Yorkshire tea and PG Tips are both following it.
And the fact that you as a completely unqualified person seem to be happy tell companies how to handle something in direct contradiction to what I suspect very expensive advice has told them to do (looking at the time frame between the initial post and Yorkshire Teas reply) tells me an awful lot..
My only question is why would someone who claims not to be racist gets involved in an argument that was started by racists when it has absolutely nothing to do with him. I mean I know everyone is bored but there are easier places (like here) to have a discussion
I still don't *get* people's assumed right not to have to walk past buildings or art that they don't like and feel some disapprobation. I dislike virtually everything built in the 1960's and 70's. More than that, it boils my blood that an elite of sneering architects and taste leaders inflicted brutalist architecture on the lower classes and pulled down beautiful Georgian and Victorian buildings with such zeal. However, I don't feel it's my right to stir up a mob and tear them down. Just deal with it. Get on with life.
Are you me? Hardly a stone would remain standing upon stone if I could have my way with the aesthetic nightmares blighting so many of our cities. Their sheer ugliness causes more psychological harm on a daily basis than an ideologically-incorrect statue ever could. In fact, if you read the justifications modern architects come up with for their vainglorious carbuncles, you often find that their analyses work beautifully on the level of concept and ideology, but fail miserably in the physical, visual, and human sphere ... which is where their buildings actually fucking exist!
High density housing and a thriving commercial space in one. This is how we should regenerate town centres.
Do we need a Bomber Harris before we can do that stuff?
Or Herman Goering? Who did for a fair bit of the area around Teddy Colston's simulacrum?
Not when you have urban planners and modern architects.
Well yes, Clydebank suggests we don't do well with a clean slate. Tbh I was thinking more of friendly bombs falling on what the urban planners and modern architects have produced.
There's a recurring meme in Glasgow that a lot of the tenement housing (eg in the Gorbals) was of such poor quality that it couldn't be upgraded or preserved, so the year zero guys were allowed to run riot in the 50s and 60s on the basis that something had to be be done. That seems quite odd nowadays when expensive extreme measures in terms of new foundations and shoring up are taken to keep tenements literally on the road. Also strange that since the tenement is absolutely THE vernacular style of housing in Glasgow and other Scottish cities hardly anything is done to faithfully reproduce it as in the form of the Dresden developments highlighted by William Glenn, or much of Berlin, a city with which I'm slightly familiar.
Even Edinburgh hasn't been immune. If you look at Princes Street (still beautiful by the way), it contains various monstrosities, as part of a brave new plan (in the 60's) to demolish all the Victorian and Georgian shop frontages, and replace them with a modern shopping precinct on two levels, with a one storey walkable balcony running the length of it.
It truly boggles the mind.
What slightly bothers me is that now we've woken up a lot more to looking after our heritage, but we've fallen into the trap of thinking that the 60's carbuncles somehow deserve preservation too.
Golly, I hadn't realised that they were thinking quite that far outside the envelope re. Princes St. Actually in Glasgow they seem to have come up with quite a decent cunning plan, to cover over the M8 where it runs through Charing Cross and turn it into an open pedestrian space. Whether that'll come off now in these straitened times, who knows?
I'm not entirely anti brutalism, I quite like the South Bank for its absolute unwillingness to ingratiate for example, and the likes of Poundbury leave me a little queasy.
edit: I see the brave new plan for Princes St is from the 60s, still wouldn't put it past them today though.
Thankfully you'd never get away with it today. It's not stopping some horrors still being built, but they tend not to be demolishing beautiful frontages to do it.
I respectfully diverge from you (and @williamglenn) on the subject of Poundbury, because for all it's air of silliness, people do want to live and work there, because the environment at least tries to be beautiful.
What would be good I think is some objective standard of beauty in buildings based on what is naturally appealing to the human eye. We instinctively prefer lightness and colour to darkness and grey - probably because it evokes cleanliness. We usually prefer ornament to lack of ornament, because it signifies effort and expense. We prefer deeper window recesses, probably because they signify thicker walls and therefore greater safety and security. We prefer stone, brick and other materials that connect a building with its landscape, to concrete.
If we can get this down, we can probably judge objectively that a monstrous pile of dark grey concrete, pebble-dashing, thin metal framed windows, with wind-swept overpasses, never looked good, isn't going to start looking good, isn't going to 'come back into fashion', doesn't deserve preservation.
At the moment, Historic Environment Scotland (I think that's the agency) and English Heritage frown heavily on new buildings done in the style of old buildings. I think that's a mistake. I love the modern extension to the National Museum in Edinburgh - but would we really be sorry if the 1960's crap on Princes Street disappeared behind a plausible Georgian pastiche?
I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.
In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.
This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.
It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.
I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.
To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.
I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.
If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.
Not until then.
I think you are being overly sensitive.
When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.
I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.
I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.
I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.
It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).
It isn’t at all.
Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu@kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.
It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.
Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.
A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?
Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."
The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."
is why.
Ah, of course - without them the government would never have thought of using the police to enforce the law. These lefty rags are so useful after all!
Do you think they're in favour of the police enforcing the law against vandalism now?
They u-turned in <24hrs. Go back and listen to the press conference. Boris was aghast that anyone could suggest the police might be involved. And then less than a day later, policy changed.
Could it have been the Telegraph that asked the question? Of course. But they didn't. It was some lefty online rag.
Do you think that Ancelotti should have gone to Arsenal instead of Everton?</p>
Wait a minute - I watched Boris' address to the nation announcing the lockdown, and it clearly mentioned that the police would have powers to enforce it, so the exchange you're referring to must have happened before it was implemented.
Even if you're correct - which I'm prepared to grant because I honestly don't remember what was said in every press conference - do you really think the government wouldn't have reconsidered the necessary means of enforcement as soon as it arose as a practical problem? I don't quite see that question as an irreplaceable service to the nation - and not one that outweighs their utter shitness ever since.
China will have this to deal with about its Mao statues at some point (The communist party won't last forever). I doubt any of us will be around to see it though.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.
No. They're more afraid of the far left. Those companies know perfectly well the firestorm they'll generate if they dare to stray an inch to the right of the Twitter-approved 'correct' position.
One tweet can be all it takes to finish you...see Crossfit...the CEO sent a one word tweet, and it is has totally torpedoed them. Most of the corporate tie ins they had immediately ditched them.
It does seem very relevant to the post earlier by @Fox327 on pols vs scientists.
This may highlight a problem within the government - a lack of scientific expertise. Does the government have to take on trust everything the scientists say because it has no scientific expertise of its own? Does the government have to believe everything that lawyers say because they are lawyers? Sir Keir Starmer is a lawyer. Does the government agree with what he says?
No, the government has its own legal experts, including the Lord Chancellor and the Attorney General. They take primary responsibility for advising the government on legal matters, including Brexit.
There is a culture in the UK that scientists are experts who are not part of the select group from which senior politicians are drawn. Margaret Thatcher was an exception, but she did go to Oxford and later became a lawyer. Therefore, an Oxford Classics graduate would not dream of disagreeing with scientific advisors - it simply would not be done by a gentleman like Boris Johnson.
Consequently, the government has lost control of the government to a group of disparate scientists who have who knows what personal agendas. Perhaps the time has come for the Chief Scientific Advisor to be a member of the government, i.e. a minister, even a cabinet minister. That way the government could get the benefit of scientific advice while remaining in control of the development of policy. The problem is that not many Conservative MPs have a suitable background but there are a few, e.g. Steve Baker.
Just mulling over what you say ...
I'm not sure that Mr Johnson would even recognise that scientists were there to be disagreed with, so much as ignored except when some of the bits they said suited him. 'Scientists on tap not on top' was what hsi hero Mr Churchill said, did he not?
Also, the Conservative Party policy over the last few decades bas been to , erm, downgrade and dispose of in-house scientific expertise - Royal Signals and Radar Establishment, Laboratory of the Government Chemist, Forensic Science Service all come to mind.
But you are right, there is no CSA position comparable with the Lord Chancellor - though I also wonder about what happens when the scientist is advising outwith his or her realm, apart from understanding how science and the scientific method work in general. A biologist might find it hard to judge on say climatology. Does the biologist then act as a politician? But one of Mrs T's greater achievements was reacting strongly to the ozone layer crisis. Would a Balliol classicist have been as quick as a Somerville chemist, I wonder?
You might know better than i how well Solly Zuckermann functioned as an advisor with a research backgroind in primate anatomy and society.
Government increasing losing the plot totally on unlocking. Looks like a dog's breakfast of personal ministerial whims rather than a plan.
Schools not to reopen for all primary as planned. Hancock now talking about "September at earliest" for secondary.
If we get an autumn wave then we could see many pupils not being in school until next spring. That would be an entire year at home.
Yet we plan to reopen shops, beer gardens, theme parks etc etc. Even talk of holidays in EU from July.
I don't think those things are necessarily contradictory. I suspect the chances of the virus spreading outside is very small. Unfortunately schools have to work indoors. I don't see why businesses and consumers should suffer just because we think they are less important than kids going to school.
For schools, I wonder if something like alternating weeks will be needed for some time whereby half the kids go one week and half the kids go the next? It won't be ideal, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Where is the evidence that kids pass this virus on? Or even get it themselves in all but a minuscule minority?
Or have I missed something?
None whatsoever. Schools should never have been closed.
I understand closing them was only put in at the last minute.
Of course there is evidence that children can both get the virus - the ONS survey has found no statistically significant differences between the percentages infected in different age groups - and pass it on.
I agree, they can get the virus, but they very rarely suffer from it. They are about as likely to get struck by lightning as to die from COVID, if they have no comorbities.
Whether they pass it on to any significant extent is not clear. A study of one 9-year old boy in the French Alps had the boy visiting three schools whilst symptomatic, but the researchers found no evidence of transmission of the virus to other pupils in follow-up interviews and testing. There are lots of similar studies ongoing.
But until there is overwhelming evidence that children are transmitting the virus and causing a significant number of deaths overall, schools should be open, just as they are in most other European countries.
Though I know, as you say, facts don't get in the way of your opinions.
The facts are equivocal.
What isn't equivocal is the massive damage this is doing to kids' education, especially poorer kids, and to parents' jobs if they can't afford child care.
Also to abused children, who need school to get away from their difficult family situations for a few hours a day. Oh, and hungry ones, who rely on free school meals to feed them.
Closing schools was a disaster. If this virus affected children the way it does old people, there would be a case for it. But there's no case for keeping them closed when other European countries are reopening them without problems.
Much of it comes down to attitude. We've piled kids high and taught them cheap in this country. It amused me to hear a Danish primary school teacher on R5L some weeks ago explaining how they had re-opened. After detailing additional measures, she was asked how many kids in her class now. 15. Oh wow! How many before? (Obviously confused)...15.
Abolish private schools and you will be amazed how quickly class sizes come down in the state sector.
Or alternatively, cut class sizes in the state sector and watch as private schools close for lack of pupils?
Honestly, some people are really dumb.
Your solution would increase class sizes, at least in the short term, not reduce them.
We agreed on this before in theory. The best single thing to do in order to disincentivize parental opt-out would be to increase the state education budget to a level which brings the funding per pupil up to the same level as the average private school.
But 'in theory' is the operative term here - because in all honesty what do you rate the chances of this ever happening?
Yes. The problem is that neither party is interested in doing it. That has fuck all to do with private schools and everything to do with the Treasury which refuses to raise taxes or cut spending on unnecessary bureaucracy. A great many problems in education, including funding shortages, would be solved tomorrow by abolishing the DfE and OFQUAL, neither of whom are any use at all (as demonstrated when they were ignored over school closures) but both of whom soak up vast sums of money.
That said, LEAs being hopelessly corrupt and incompetent and being more interested in creaming off money for their lovely Mercedes cars rather than spending it on children's education doesn't help either...
OFQUAL's annual budget is less than £20m, I think, and OFSTED though more expensive, and arguably of equal inutility, around £130m; the DoE's claimed administrative spend is around £500m.
We agreed on this before in theory. The best single thing to do in order to disincentivize parental opt-out would be to increase the state education budget to a level which brings the funding per pupil up to the same level as the average private school.
But 'in theory' is the operative term here - because in all honesty what do you rate the chances of this ever happening?
That makes the assumption that sending the kids to private school is for their education rather than making sure they are not subjected to mixing with the "wrong type" of kids - or perhaps for making sure they mix with the "right type".
Good point. Because the educational 'gated community' aspect is surely a big part of it. Another pernicious macro effect. But to stress - I totally understand why individuals who can afford it make this choice and I would never criticize somebody's personal decision to do so. I just think the country as a whole would be much better off in several important ways if nobody did.
That's swings of 8.5% and 6.5% away from Trump in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Senior retired Republicans are queuing up to be negative about Trump or even endorse Biden. But the White House is trailing a big "unity" address to the nation this week. The Donald, he can do anything. From the great polariser to the great unifier? Something "great" anyway. He's the greatest and realest, and nothing like a loser or a fake. He can be the unifiers' unifier if he chooses. Best of luck with that. Not sure I've ever seen a US leader so busted this far out.
Yep. Too late now. Some people are on the pitch. The fat lady is fingering her mike. Coronavirus was a golden opportunity to reinvent himself as a credible president. Indeed I was slightly scared that he would somehow manage to do so - it was his one clear chance to head off the big defeat in November that I have long thought inevitable.
But I needn't have worried. The situation merely exposed his almost comical limitations further. He simply does not have the capability to speak or lead in a 'national interest' manner. When he tries it looks and sounds ridiculous because it is so clearly phony. And on top of this you have the glaring lack of competence which is hard to hide when there is a genuine crisis on.
So, sure, he may have another go at 'presidential' but the result will be the same. It will come over as false. Few will be swayed and of those who are it will as likely be the other way. For his hardcore supporters it might still be a case of "To know him is to love him," but for everybody else the opposite now applies. He appears, he speaks, he net repels.
His best re-election strategy in my view would be one of minimalist blandness from here until polling day. Keep his head down. Stay out of the news. But of course it has no chance of being adopted. Instead it will be double down on Boast, Blame, Bluster. Chances of this securing many votes other than his base and those outside it who would vote Republican regardless? Slim to zero. He's toast.
I kind of agree that it's a bit late for him to start acting presidential now. Part of Trump's appeal is that his supporters think that he "tells it likes it is". That doesn't mean he doesn't lie, but when he lies it is entirely in keeping with his character. That's also partly why things like "grab 'em by the pussy" weren't fatal for him. It was obnoxious, but consistent. He's a consistently obnoxious guy. To suddenly switch now would probably turn off his core vote, without convincing anyone else. His best chance is to try and reduce the numbers voting for the other guy, by whatever means. Like everyone says, it's probably going to get really dirty (unless he gives up and starts his own Trumped Up News Channel: "All fake, all of the time!").
It's like the Presidency has been in the hands of a pub boor. It's beginning to seem though that some of his boorish supporters are starting to notice it isn't a good way to run the show.
I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.
Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.
He'd definitely be one of these tossers who never buys his round and takes 7/8 drunk pints back to the bar saying it was 'off'.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths. .
You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.
Guess we should add Muhammed and Buddha to the list too.
I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.
That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.
Twitter is utterly moronic.
You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.
Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.
So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.
I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.
I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.
They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.
Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.
Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...
Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.
No. They're more afraid of the far left. Those companies know perfectly well the firestorm they'll generate if they dare to stray an inch to the right of the Twitter-approved 'correct' position.
One tweet can be all it takes to finish you...see Crossfit...the CEO sent a one word tweet, and it is has totally torpedoed them. Most of the corporate tie ins they had immediately ditched them.
The mob doesn't like your statues ... they'll destroy them. The mob doesn't like your tweet ... they'll destroy your company. The mob doesn't like your country .....................
That's swings of 8.5% and 6.5% away from Trump in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Senior retired Republicans are queuing up to be negative about Trump or even endorse Biden. But the White House is trailing a big "unity" address to the nation this week. The Donald, he can do anything. From the great polariser to the great unifier? Something "great" anyway. He's the greatest and realest, and nothing like a loser or a fake. He can be the unifiers' unifier if he chooses. Best of luck with that. Not sure I've ever seen a US leader so busted this far out.
Yep. Too late now. Some people are on the pitch. The fat lady is fingering her mike. Coronavirus was a golden opportunity to reinvent himself as a credible president. Indeed I was slightly scared that he would somehow manage to do so - it was his one clear chance to head off the big defeat in November that I have long thought inevitable.
But I needn't have worried. The situation merely exposed his almost comical limitations further. He simply does not have the capability to speak or lead in a 'national interest' manner. When he tries it looks and sounds ridiculous because it is so clearly phony. And on top of this you have the glaring lack of competence which is hard to hide when there is a genuine crisis on.
So, sure, he may have another go at 'presidential' but the result will be the same. It will come over as false. Few will be swayed and of those who are it will as likely be the other way. For his hardcore supporters it might still be a case of "To know him is to love him," but for everybody else the opposite now applies. He appears, he speaks, he net repels.
His best re-election strategy in my view would be one of minimalist blandness from here until polling day. Keep his head down. Stay out of the news. But of course it has no chance of being adopted. Instead it will be double down on Boast, Blame, Bluster. Chances of this securing many votes other than his base and those outside it who would vote Republican regardless? Slim to zero. He's toast.
I kind of agree that it's a bit late for him to start acting presidential now. Part of Trump's appeal is that his supporters think that he "tells it likes it is". That doesn't mean he doesn't lie, but when he lies it is entirely in keeping with his character. That's also partly why things like "grab 'em by the pussy" weren't fatal for him. It was obnoxious, but consistent. He's a consistently obnoxious guy. To suddenly switch now would probably turn off his core vote, without convincing anyone else. His best chance is to try and reduce the numbers voting for the other guy, by whatever means. Like everyone says, it's probably going to get really dirty (unless he gives up and starts his own Trumped Up News Channel: "All fake, all of the time!").
It's like the Presidency has been in the hands of a pub boor. It's beginning to seem though that some of his boorish supporters are starting to notice it isn't a good way to run the show.
I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.
Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.
Not exactly alone. He's perhaps more like the school bully, with his gang following, that the majority have finally got utterly fed up with. And is now due a good kicking.
Earl Grey tea is the scrapings off the tea factory floor, that is why they add flavourings to it. I quite like it, but the fact it is marketed as a luxury product is hilarious.
I'd advise drinking Barry's Tea (gold blend, in the red boxes, loose leaf) because it's superior tea.
You think it has anything to do with what the tea tastes like?
A re-education camp awaits you...
He's drinking Earl Grey - while I actually like that blend, I know plenty of people who regard those who drink it as beyond the pale and pretentious hassocks
I cautioned against this. I said that however well-intentioned they are they'd end up being seen to pick a side and it was better for businesses to steer clear of politics. Because having culture wars extend into the corporate world - ending up with the politicisation of absolutely everything - won't end well for businesses or consumers.
Yes, well I am a consultant. And I enjoy being devil's advocate and provoking an argument. I live in hope somebody picks it up and at least thinks about it behind the scenes.
But it was probably a mistake. The choices on Twitter seemed to be you could be branded as a fellow fascist, independent racist or a fellow Left-wing warrior.
Nothing else. So probably best to duck out as there's no room for nuance.
Earl Grey tea is the scrapings off the tea factory floor, that is why they add flavourings to it. I quite like it, but the fact it is marketed as a luxury product is hilarious.
That is quite the stupidest piece of misinformation I have ever seen anywhere on the internet. Well done.
Comments
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/bristol-should-be-proud-says-police-chief-who-let-protesters-throw-statue-into-harbour-dl80pgfc5
And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/09/coronavirus-fiasco-serving-wake-up-call-many-betrayed-swedes/
I understand the point but tbh I think this is more what @Casino_Royale was keen to stress he is NOT alluding to.
Am hoping we will clarify but of course no big deal. There are one or two posters on here who I sense are unpleasantly racist but he is not one of them.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/
Currently they are running classes of 5 outside.
They are gearing to be ready by July to have classes inside with 3m x 4m per class member, with a further 2m on top of that between rows in the class. Plus the doors and loading bay open front and back for strong ventilation.
Obviously with appropriate wipedown etc.
Membership numbers are now down just over 15% since Feb - this with a good online training and social programme running.
There has also been a fair bit of work done in the gym in the interim to improve the fit out.
"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".
I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.
We're still miles higher than that.
What does it mean? If it continues, then sell your shares in the supermarkets. Take someone like Morrisons. An uptick in sales at huge costs - they've had to recruit 25k+ new staff, throw money at a rapid expansion in online, yet their overall sales are down because fuel. Once big brands start doing direct sales then any retail is in trouble - as noted by intu getting the receivers on standby for their prospective bankruptcy as the Q2 rent round throws their tenants under the bus and drags them with it.
As noted, investors are happy to see property shuttered rather than recognise that it's worth far less than book. Rochdale town centre an early victim to this with so many shops closed and not re-let as the rent asked for was £stupid.
We're going to have to reposess and repurpose these buildings. CPO to wrest them from their investor, let the nice accomodation out to people, peppercorn rent or more accommodation for the former shop. My Brother has just started the conversion of the shop attached to his house in rural Aberdeenshire - the old dear who was the survivor of the family who ran the shop and lived next door dies, he bought both, will make for a spacious house once all converted and knocked through.
Pension fund members will stump up the difference where they are the owners.
America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.
And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.
Last 7 days - 105
Spanish style - 20
Looks like last week was under 100 per day.
Beaten by the Falklands mind, 99.8% on a 92% turnout !
Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.
And would urge him to stick around.
The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."
is why.
And of course to the hard left, the slave bit is only part of it, it is as much about the idea of the wealth and how it was "taken" from the people etc.
Yorkshire Tea took the bait, and then said "please don't buy our tea again", which I thought unprofessional. Then Owen Jones switched in (a hugely political person, who's posted a list of other statues for removal today on his feed) saying he was going to switch from PG Tips, and then PG Tips waded in saying 'don't worry, Owen, you can enjoy us both guilt-free'.
I cautioned against this. I said that however well-intentioned they are they'd end up being seen to pick a side and it was better for businesses to steer clear of politics. Because having culture wars extend into the corporate world - ending up with the politicisation of absolutely everything - won't end well for businesses or consumers.
In recent days, I've posted that I disagree with a mob tearing down a statue, would like to hear from the real BAME community (in all its diversity) to hear what they really think about things like this and similar, rather than taking the protestors rhetoric at face value, and said I'd listen sensitively to the results. I've questioned the wisdom of companies wading into this arena. I've used analogies of being accommodating when in dialogue with one other, and avoiding jumping to offence. I've challenged lazy thinking and assumptions.
For this (refusing to accept there aren't shade of greys) I've been accused of racism, now also insinuated by you as well.
If that's how you engage with me, what language do you use for real racists?
The bloke clearly meant "what we got away with charging in the past" to be the market rate.
I'm not actually going anywhere, I'm just saying I won't engage with anyone who accuses me of being a racist until they apologise.
I have this sneaking suspicion that the mob though again will have slightly different rules for different faiths.
That's why I said earlier I ended up disagreeing with basically everyone on Twitter on this issue.
Whatever, we do not want a repetition of our last tumble through this which ended with you calling me "ill-informed and riddled with prejudice" and me retorting that you were a "purveyor of fatuous banalities". What a night that was.
Do you think they're in favour of the police enforcing the law against vandalism now?
The accademici attualy protected them - it was early days of CCTV, and they tried to get the Student Union to not hand over evidence of the assaults to the police.
Then, one day, the leader of this bunch of wonderful people found out that I had some Polish ancestry. So he started going on about how Katyn had been great and should have been done more.
Loud music was playing - so I said "eh?"
He repeated himself somewhat louder. I again said "eh?"
On the third repetition, it seems that members of the Polish Society, sitting at the table behind him, heard what was said.
The next day, the tame academics demanded the CCTV footage......
Could it have been the Telegraph that asked the question? Of course. But they didn't. It was some lefty online rag.
Do you think that Ancelotti should have gone to Arsenal instead of Everton?
Clipper, Fair Trade, Organic, Plastic-Free Teabags. Clearly good.
But it is Earl Grey. Apparently now bad.
So am I woke or a fascist?
Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.
Social Media Marketing experts actually have a strategy for dealing with this type of issue. Yorkshire tea and PG Tips are both following it.
And the fact that you as a completely unqualified person seem to be happy tell companies how to handle something in direct contradiction to what I suspect very expensive advice has told them to do (looking at the time frame between the initial post and Yorkshire Teas reply) tells me an awful lot..
My only question is why would someone who claims not to be racist gets involved in an argument that was started by racists when it has absolutely nothing to do with him. I mean I know everyone is bored but there are easier places (like here) to have a discussion
I respectfully diverge from you (and @williamglenn) on the subject of Poundbury, because for all it's air of silliness, people do want to live and work there, because the environment at least tries to be beautiful.
What would be good I think is some objective standard of beauty in buildings based on what is naturally appealing to the human eye. We instinctively prefer lightness and colour to darkness and grey - probably because it evokes cleanliness. We usually prefer ornament to lack of ornament, because it signifies effort and expense. We prefer deeper window recesses, probably because they signify thicker walls and therefore greater safety and security. We prefer stone, brick and other materials that connect a building with its landscape, to concrete.
If we can get this down, we can probably judge objectively that a monstrous pile of dark grey concrete, pebble-dashing, thin metal framed windows, with wind-swept overpasses, never looked good, isn't going to start looking good, isn't going to 'come back into fashion', doesn't deserve preservation.
At the moment, Historic Environment Scotland (I think that's the agency) and English Heritage frown heavily on new buildings done in the style of old buildings. I think that's a mistake. I love the modern extension to the National Museum in Edinburgh - but would we really be sorry if the 1960's crap on Princes Street disappeared behind a plausible Georgian pastiche?
Even if you're correct - which I'm prepared to grant because I honestly don't remember what was said in every press conference - do you really think the government wouldn't have reconsidered the necessary means of enforcement as soon as it arose as a practical problem? I don't quite see that question as an irreplaceable service to the nation - and not one that outweighs their utter shitness ever since.
I'm not sure that Mr Johnson would even recognise that scientists were there to be disagreed with, so much as ignored except when some of the bits they said suited him. 'Scientists on tap not on top' was what hsi hero Mr Churchill said, did he not?
Also, the Conservative Party policy over the last few decades bas been to , erm, downgrade and dispose of in-house scientific expertise - Royal Signals and Radar Establishment, Laboratory of the Government Chemist, Forensic Science Service all come to mind.
But you are right, there is no CSA position comparable with the Lord Chancellor -
though I also wonder about what happens when the scientist is advising outwith his or her realm, apart from understanding how science and the scientific method work in general. A biologist might find it hard to judge on say climatology. Does the biologist then act as a politician? But one of Mrs T's greater achievements was reacting strongly to the ozone layer crisis. Would a Balliol classicist have been as quick as a Somerville chemist, I wonder?
You might know better than i how well Solly Zuckermann functioned as an advisor with a research backgroind in primate anatomy and society.
So not transformative in cash terms.
A re-education camp awaits you...
The mob doesn't like your tweet ... they'll destroy your company.
The mob doesn't like your country .....................
He's perhaps more like the school bully, with his gang following, that the majority have finally got utterly fed up with. And is now due a good kicking.
"Honda can confirm that a cyber-attack has taken place on the Honda network," the Japanese car-maker said in a statement.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-52965672
But it was probably a mistake. The choices on Twitter seemed to be you could be branded as a fellow fascist, independent racist or a fellow Left-wing warrior.
Nothing else. So probably best to duck out as there's no room for nuance.