politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Social Undistanceables: A Plan

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

And how does that relate to what Casino_Royale said?

Andy_JS said:

Why are the police getting involved in politics?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/bristol-should-be-proud-says-police-chief-who-let-protesters-throw-statue-into-harbour-dl80pgfc5

Because they have suffered total ideological capture by the left. The opinion of the elected Home Secretary is apparently irrelevant to them.

MaxPB said:

Nigelb said:

kinabalu said:

Very important point. Glad to see it being made. If the most affluent and influential members of society are fully invested in something - e.g. state education - it will lead over time to an increase in standards. This is one of the strongest arguments against private schools.

I tend to agree with Casino -
It's far more likely there'd be a boom in home-schooling, private tuition, coaching and mentoring....

Certainly if you're talking about 'the most affluent and influential'.

Homeschooling with 4-6 other children and teachers paid for by the parents of those children, perhaps?

What is happening about that in eg Sweden where holeschooling may lead to the State taking your children away?

Gallowgate said:

I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

Bloody hell. That would be quite a project. Are they intending to bring down Eldon Square as collateral damage?

Gallowgate said:

I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.

And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?

A show on Bbc2 at 9pm tonight called 'A House Through Time' about the history of a 19th Century house in Bristol - wonder if it mentions the bloke the statue was of

dixiedean said:

Gallowgate said:

I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

Bloody hell. That would be quite a project. Are they intending to bring down Eldon Square as collateral damage?

I reckon you could get away with just taking out pret.

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.

In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.

This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.

It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.

I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.

To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.

I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.

If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.

Not until then.

I think you are being overly sensitive.

When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.

I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.

I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.

I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.

Equivalent here, therefore, being incomers who in places refuse to integrate, insist on living in their own cultural bubble.

I understand the point but tbh I think this is more what @Casino_Royale was keen to stress he is NOT alluding to.

Am hoping we will clarify but of course no big deal. There are one or two posters on here who I sense are unpleasantly racist but he is not one of them.

So much for fizzling out. Second wave is on in Israel (see the graph at 13:32):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/

Casino_Royale said:

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?

Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?

dixiedean said:

Gallowgate said:

I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

Bloody hell. That would be quite a project. Are they intending to bring down Eldon Square as collateral damage?

Depends on the path used, it would probably take down part of Monument Mall and definitely part of Monument station which is built all around it.

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.

In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.

This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.

It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.

I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.

To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.

I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.

If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.

Not until then.

I think you are being overly sensitive.

When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.

I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.

I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.

I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.

People in Gibraltar were setting up British pubs festooned with union jacks? Whatever next.

Pulpstar said:

RobD said:

So much for fizzling out. Second wave is on in Israel (see the graph at 13:32):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said he was taking the precaution after the number of daily new cases of coronavirus rose to around 100.

We're still miles higher than that.

Yeah, but they used to be miles lower than that after their first peak.

An interesting discussion about commercial property and "the market rate". The revolutionary thing about this pandemic in UK retail has been the explosion in online. No, I don't mean getting Tesco or Amazon to ship it to you, I mean going to Heinz and ordering Beanz for delivery. Direct To Consumer from all kinds of unlikely brands and businesses is a genuinely fascinating development.

What does it mean? If it continues, then sell your shares in the supermarkets. Take someone like Morrisons. An uptick in sales at huge costs - they've had to recruit 25k+ new staff, throw money at a rapid expansion in online, yet their overall sales are down because fuel. Once big brands start doing direct sales then any retail is in trouble - as noted by intu getting the receivers on standby for their prospective bankruptcy as the Q2 rent round throws their tenants under the bus and drags them with it.

As noted, investors are happy to see property shuttered rather than recognise that it's worth far less than book. Rochdale town centre an early victim to this with so many shops closed and not re-let as the rent asked for was £stupid.

We're going to have to reposess and repurpose these buildings. CPO to wrest them from their investor, let the nice accomodation out to people, peppercorn rent or more accommodation for the former shop. My Brother has just started the conversion of the shop attached to his house in rural Aberdeenshire - the old dear who was the survivor of the family who ran the shop and lived next door dies, he bought both, will make for a spacious house once all converted and knocked through.

RobD said:

So much for fizzling out. Second wave is on in Israel (see the graph at 13:32):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/

States in US outside NY and NJ rising too. Those 2 coming off their massive peaks is disguising the overall figures.
America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.

RobD said:

Nigelb said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

To be fair, attempting to argue with a beverage isn't perhaps the most brilliant of ideas.

I bet he found it quite straining.

You should never join a row that's been brewing for a while.

NHS England numbers out - 129
Last 7 days - 105
Spanish style - 20

Looks like last week was under 100 per day.

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.

Andy_JS said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

We'd be better off without Twitter. Only a minority are able to use it responsibly.

We'd be better off without liberty. Only a minority are able to use it responsibly.

FrancisUrquhart said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Gallowgate said:

I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.

And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.

The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.

It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.

And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.

Wait till they hear about the role the banks played..

Andy_JS said:

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.

Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.

Andy_JS said:

They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.

They're looking out for their bottom line, and they determined that it'd be better for their brand image to explicitly denounce a facist than remain silent. So it was FREE SPEECH provoked by the incentives of the FREE MARKET. Sorry if that upsets you, snowflake.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Stocky said:

Casino_Royale said:

Pulpstar said:

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.

In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.

This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.

It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.

I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.

To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.

I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.

If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.

Not until then.

I think you are being overly sensitive.

When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.

I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.

I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.

I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.

It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).

It isn’t at all.

Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu @kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.

It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.

Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.

A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:

"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".

I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.

And of course there are a whole range of diseases which different ethnicities suffer from disproportionately. Also, I presume using the same Gruarduian journalist logic, Britain must be a massively sexist country, against men.....no? I mean it clearly must be, otherwise why are so many more men dying of this than woman? It is clearly structurally sexist. And most of all, ageist.

I doubt they could even understand that if you explained it to them slowly.

BluestBlue said:

Stocky said:

Casino_Royale said:

Pulpstar said:

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.

In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.

This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.

It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.

I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.

To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.

I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.

If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.

Not until then.

I think you are being overly sensitive.

When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.

I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.

I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.

I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.

It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).

It isn’t at all.

Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu @kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.

It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.

Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.

A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:

"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".

I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.

These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?

Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."

The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."

is why.

FrancisUrquhart said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
.

You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.

dixiedean said:

RobD said:

So much for fizzling out. Second wave is on in Israel (see the graph at 13:32):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-london-deaths-cases-lockdown/

States in US outside NY and NJ rising too. Those 2 coming off their massive peaks is disguising the overall figures.
America really has the worst of all world's. Lockdown too slowly, chaotically and haphazardly. Stick 40million on the Dole. Then re-open before you've got it under control.

Indeed. However what got me was "the market rate" insistence. There is no market rate, as there are no comparable properties in our village. And if you can't rent it anyway...
The bloke clearly meant "what we got away with charging in the past" to be the market rate.

BluestBlue said:

Andy_JS said:

Why are the police getting involved in politics?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/bristol-should-be-proud-says-police-chief-who-let-protesters-throw-statue-into-harbour-dl80pgfc5

Because they have suffered total ideological capture by the left. The opinion of the elected Home Secretary is apparently irrelevant to them.

Is this partly down to an unforeseen consequence of the creation political Police & Crime Commissioners?

Theuniondivvie said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
.

You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.

A bit trickier finding his grave ...

Theuniondivvie said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.
.

You should see the death toll for that Jesus bloke's thinking, and the antisemitism it fuelled.

All religious buildings of all faiths better go, because none are free from sin and usually funded by those who made money in ways which are now not socially acceptable.

I have this sneaking suspicion that the mob though again will have slightly different rules for different faiths.

LostPassword said:

Casino_Royale said:

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?

Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?

I am advising companies not to rise to the bait, because it will end up with mischaracterised polarisation (to both sides) that will do them, and us, no good.

That's why I said earlier I ended up disagreeing with basically everyone on Twitter on this issue.

ydoethur said:

kinabalu said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

dixiedean said:

Fishing said:

Nigelb said:

Fishing said:

Chris said:

Fishing said:

rottenborough said:

tlg86 said:

rottenborough said:

Government increasing losing the plot totally on unlocking. Looks like a dog's breakfast of personal ministerial whims rather than a plan.

Schools not to reopen for all primary as planned. Hancock now talking about "September at earliest" for secondary.

If we get an autumn wave then we could see many pupils not being in school until next spring. That would be an entire year at home.

Yet we plan to reopen shops, beer gardens, theme parks etc etc. Even talk of holidays in EU from July.

I don't think those things are necessarily contradictory. I suspect the chances of the virus spreading outside is very small. Unfortunately schools have to work indoors. I don't see why businesses and consumers should suffer just because we think they are less important than kids going to school.

For schools, I wonder if something like alternating weeks will be needed for some time whereby half the kids go one week and half the kids go the next? It won't be ideal, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Where is the evidence that kids pass this virus on? Or even get it themselves in all but a minuscule minority?

Or have I missed something?

None whatsoever. Schools should never have been closed.

I understand closing them was only put in at the last minute.

Of course there is evidence that children can both get the virus - the ONS survey has found no statistically significant differences between the percentages infected in different age groups - and pass it on.

I agree, they can get the virus, but they very rarely suffer from it. They are about as likely to get struck by lightning as to die from COVID, if they have no comorbities.

Whether they pass it on to any significant extent is not clear. A study of one 9-year old boy in the French Alps had the boy visiting three schools whilst symptomatic, but the researchers found no evidence of transmission of the virus to other pupils in follow-up interviews and testing. There are lots of similar studies ongoing.

But until there is overwhelming evidence that children are transmitting the virus and causing a significant number of deaths overall, schools should be open, just as they are in most other European countries.

Though I know, as you say, facts don't get in the way of your opinions.

The facts are equivocal.

What isn't equivocal is the massive damage this is doing to kids' education, especially poorer kids, and to parents' jobs if they can't afford child care.

Also to abused children, who need school to get away from their difficult family situations for a few hours a day. Oh, and hungry ones, who rely on free school meals to feed them.

Closing schools was a disaster. If this virus affected children the way it does old people, there would be a case for it. But there's no case for keeping them closed when other European countries are reopening them without problems.

Much of it comes down to attitude. We've piled kids high and taught them cheap in this country.
It amused me to hear a Danish primary school teacher on R5L some weeks ago explaining how they had re-opened. After detailing additional measures, she was asked how many kids in her class now.
15.
Oh wow! How many before?
(Obviously confused)...15.

Abolish private schools and you will be amazed how quickly class sizes come down in the state sector.

Or alternatively, cut class sizes in the state sector and watch as private schools close for lack of pupils?

Honestly, some people are really dumb.

Your solution would increase class sizes, at least in the short term, not reduce them.

We agreed on this before in theory. The best single thing to do in order to disincentivize parental opt-out would be to increase the state education budget to a level which brings the funding per pupil up to the same level as the average private school.

But 'in theory' is the operative term here - because in all honesty what do you rate the chances of this ever happening?

Yes. The problem is that neither party is interested in doing it. That has fuck all to do with private schools and everything to do with the Treasury which refuses to raise taxes or cut spending on unnecessary bureaucracy. A great many problems in education, including funding shortages, would be solved tomorrow by abolishing the DfE and OFQUAL, neither of whom are any use at all (as demonstrated when they were ignored over school closures) but both of whom soak up vast sums of money.

That said, LEAs being hopelessly corrupt and incompetent and being more interested in creaming off money for their lovely Mercedes cars rather than spending it on children's education doesn't help either.

Quite so. Not happening. I agree with @OnlyLivingBoy that there would be more chance of it happening if the private option was disincentivized out of existence, to all intents and purposes, but there we run into the turbulence. Perhaps we can just agree on the obvious super short-term step of removing the tax breaks.

Whatever, we do not want a repetition of our last tumble through this which ended with you calling me "ill-informed and riddled with prejudice" and me retorting that you were a "purveyor of fatuous banalities". What a night that was.

BluestBlue said:

eek said:

Andy_JS said:

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.

Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.

Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...

Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.

LostPassword said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Gallowgate said:

I see they want to topple Grey’s Monument in Newcastle now. The guy who was Prime Minister when we ended the f*cking slave trade. Begs belief.

And this is the problem with allowing mob rule. Its now fair game to rip down a statue of something you don't like, regardless of what any sort of democratic consultation has decided.

And a slippery slope. You would be hard pressed to find many historical figures that aren't problematic by todays standards.

The other problem with the police allowing mob rule, it is the mob deciding which statues should go.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Marx grave isn't going to be on their hit list, despite being an antisemite and his thinking responsible for millions of deaths.

It is the mob who will decide what is allowable history and what is not.

And even on purely slavery. The mob in Bristol what the Wills family erased, because they made their money from tobacco that was picked by slaved. As we go down this rabbit hole, there isn't going to many rich families from the past who haven't profited in some way and thus we must erase them.

The worse problem is what happens when a different mob decides to tear down Marx's grave and the argument is settled in a pre-law fashion.

Might see a few people rediscover the benefits of the police at that point.

When I was at university, there was a... group of very hard left nutters who actually went round being physical with people they didn't like.

The accademici attualy protected them - it was early days of CCTV, and they tried to get the Student Union to not hand over evidence of the assaults to the police.

Then, one day, the leader of this bunch of wonderful people found out that I had some Polish ancestry. So he started going on about how Katyn had been great and should have been done more.

Loud music was playing - so I said "eh?"

He repeated himself somewhat louder. I again said "eh?"

On the third repetition, it seems that members of the Polish Society, sitting at the table behind him, heard what was said.

The next day, the tame academics demanded the CCTV footage......

Malmesbury said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

dixiedean said:

Fishing said:

Nigelb said:

Fishing said:

Chris said:

Fishing said:

rottenborough said:

tlg86 said:

rottenborough said:

Government increasing losing the plot totally on unlocking. Looks like a dog's breakfast of personal ministerial whims rather than a plan.

Schools not to reopen for all primary as planned. Hancock now talking about "September at earliest" for secondary.

If we get an autumn wave then we could see many pupils not being in school until next spring. That would be an entire year at home.

Yet we plan to reopen shops, beer gardens, theme parks etc etc. Even talk of holidays in EU from July.

I don't think those things are necessarily contradictory. I suspect the chances of the virus spreading outside is very small. Unfortunately schools have to work indoors. I don't see why businesses and consumers should suffer just because we think they are less important than kids going to school.

For schools, I wonder if something like alternating weeks will be needed for some time whereby half the kids go one week and half the kids go the next? It won't be ideal, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Where is the evidence that kids pass this virus on? Or even get it themselves in all but a minuscule minority?

Or have I missed something?

None whatsoever. Schools should never have been closed.

I understand closing them was only put in at the last minute.

Of course there is evidence that children can both get the virus - the ONS survey has found no statistically significant differences between the percentages infected in different age groups - and pass it on.

I agree, they can get the virus, but they very rarely suffer from it. They are about as likely to get struck by lightning as to die from COVID, if they have no comorbities.

Whether they pass it on to any significant extent is not clear. A study of one 9-year old boy in the French Alps had the boy visiting three schools whilst symptomatic, but the researchers found no evidence of transmission of the virus to other pupils in follow-up interviews and testing. There are lots of similar studies ongoing.

But until there is overwhelming evidence that children are transmitting the virus and causing a significant number of deaths overall, schools should be open, just as they are in most other European countries.

Though I know, as you say, facts don't get in the way of your opinions.

The facts are equivocal.

What isn't equivocal is the massive damage this is doing to kids' education, especially poorer kids, and to parents' jobs if they can't afford child care.

Also to abused children, who need school to get away from their difficult family situations for a few hours a day. Oh, and hungry ones, who rely on free school meals to feed them.

Closing schools was a disaster. If this virus affected children the way it does old people, there would be a case for it. But there's no case for keeping them closed when other European countries are reopening them without problems.

Much of it comes down to attitude. We've piled kids high and taught them cheap in this country.
It amused me to hear a Danish primary school teacher on R5L some weeks ago explaining how they had re-opened. After detailing additional measures, she was asked how many kids in her class now.
15.
Oh wow! How many before?
(Obviously confused)...15.

Abolish private schools and you will be amazed how quickly class sizes come down in the state sector.

Why? The Education budget would remain the same, and you'd have 7-10% extra pupils and no extra funding. They'd increase. And some teachers in the private sector would be put out of work too.

You might argue that the middle-class would then agitate for a higher education budget, as indeed they might, but the Government would have even less money.

It's far more likely there'd be a boom in home-schooling, private tuition, coaching and mentoring.

Policy in this country is largely set by the preferences of the upper middle class, especially on issues that they care about disproportionately, like education. We know that they favour smaller class sizes, because that is what the private sector offers them to obtain their fees. If they were forced to send their kids to state schools I have no doubt that the weight of influential public opinion would soon channel more resources to education, lowering class sizes and raising standards. It will never happen, I am not even saying it should happen, but I have no doubt that it would have a net positive effect on education outcomes in this country.

I think this is a myth. There's no shortage of such opinions at the moment, and even most of the upper middle class do send their children to state schools.

Where they don't they move to a house in the right catchment area, or leverage other advantages to get the best outcome for their children.

That's my point, state schools need those sharp elbowed people pushing to raise budgets and standards, not lobbying for tax cuts since they don't use public services.

Those who sharp-elbows can question authority and challenge decisions better, and more articulately, but they cannot magic up extra budgets. It would be too hard and difficult to do it and it would be much easier for them to focus on their own kids.

I expect you'd just see increased class polarisation in the state sector and further spikes in house prices in certain areas.

Yes - like a certain state school in Hampstead.

You are completely free to send your children there.

Providing you live in a multi-million pound house. Or live in the servants quarters of one of the really big ones....

Why does the fact that there is and always will be inequality mean we should not seek to reduce it?

Stuartinromford said:

BluestBlue said:

eek said:

Andy_JS said:

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.

Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.

Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...

Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.

No. They're more afraid of the far left. Those companies know perfectly well the firestorm they'll generate if they dare to stray an inch to the right of the Twitter-approved 'correct' position.

In the great tea culture wars I require guidance on my choice of brew:

Clipper, Fair Trade, Organic, Plastic-Free Teabags. Clearly good.

But it is Earl Grey. Apparently now bad.

So am I woke or a fascist?

Peter_the_Punter said:

kamski said:

kinabalu said:

Surrey said:

That's swings of 8.5% and 6.5% away from Trump in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Senior retired Republicans are queuing up to be negative about Trump or even endorse Biden. But the White House is trailing a big "unity" address to the nation this week. The Donald, he can do anything. From the great polariser to the great unifier? Something "great" anyway. He's the greatest and realest, and nothing like a loser or a fake. He can be the unifiers' unifier if he chooses. Best of luck with that. Not sure I've ever seen a US leader so busted this far out.

Yep. Too late now. Some people are on the pitch. The fat lady is fingering her mike. Coronavirus was a golden opportunity to reinvent himself as a credible president. Indeed I was slightly scared that he would somehow manage to do so - it was his one clear chance to head off the big defeat in November that I have long thought inevitable.

But I needn't have worried. The situation merely exposed his almost comical limitations further. He simply does not have the capability to speak or lead in a 'national interest' manner. When he tries it looks and sounds ridiculous because it is so clearly phony. And on top of this you have the glaring lack of competence which is hard to hide when there is a genuine crisis on.

So, sure, he may have another go at 'presidential' but the result will be the same. It will come over as false. Few will be swayed and of those who are it will as likely be the other way. For his hardcore supporters it might still be a case of "To know him is to love him," but for everybody else the opposite now applies. He appears, he speaks, he net repels.

His best re-election strategy in my view would be one of minimalist blandness from here until polling day. Keep his head down. Stay out of the news. But of course it has no chance of being adopted. Instead it will be double down on Boast, Blame, Bluster. Chances of this securing many votes other than his base and those outside it who would vote Republican regardless? Slim to zero. He's toast.

I kind of agree that it's a bit late for him to start acting presidential now. Part of Trump's appeal is that his supporters think that he "tells it likes it is". That doesn't mean he doesn't lie, but when he lies it is entirely in keeping with his character. That's also partly why things like "grab 'em by the pussy" weren't fatal for him. It was obnoxious, but consistent. He's a consistently obnoxious guy. To suddenly switch now would probably turn off his core vote, without convincing anyone else. His best chance is to try and reduce the numbers voting for the other guy, by whatever means. Like everyone says, it's probably going to get really dirty (unless he gives up and starts his own Trumped Up News Channel: "All fake, all of the time!").

It's like the Presidency has been in the hands of a pub boor. It's beginning to seem though that some of his boorish supporters are starting to notice it isn't a good way to run the show.

I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.

Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.

Casino_Royale said:

LostPassword said:

Casino_Royale said:

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

Did they? Why couldn't they have ignored it?

Why are you taking offence at a couple of tea brands wanting to make sure they aren't associated with a fascist?

I am advising companies not to rise to the bait, because it will end up with mischaracterised polarisation (to both sides) that will do them, and us, no good.

That's why I said earlier I ended up disagreeing with basically everyone on Twitter on this issue.

Are you a social media marketing expert? I thought you worked on infrastructure projects.

Social Media Marketing experts actually have a strategy for dealing with this type of issue. Yorkshire tea and PG Tips are both following it.

And the fact that you as a completely unqualified person seem to be happy tell companies how to handle something in direct contradiction to what I suspect very expensive advice has told them to do (looking at the time frame between the initial post and Yorkshire Teas reply) tells me an awful lot..

My only question is why would someone who claims not to be racist gets involved in an argument that was started by racists when it has absolutely nothing to do with him. I mean I know everyone is bored but there are easier places (like here) to have a discussion

TOPPING said:

BluestBlue said:

TOPPING said:

BluestBlue said:

Stocky said:

Casino_Royale said:

Pulpstar said:

Stocky said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

noneoftheabove said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've been posting on this site for over 15 years. I have never been accused of being a racist. Nor in my lifetime before. Not even at the most passionate heights of the Brexit debate, or the UKIP surge before it.

In the last few days, I've had at least two posters on here make this accusation directly at me. One subsequently withdrew it but they were both made casually and cheaply - with little thought.

This is a really unpleasant and nasty effect of these current riots. It's making many people meaner and less inclined to dialogue. It's absenting the crowd to those with the loudest and strongest voices to dictate what people are meant to think and say, and worrying others with reservations into silence.

It explains precisely why there is so little challenge and debate around some of the assumptions and motives underlying the actions of the perpetrators, and it's unclear how far those will now advance unchecked and what the consequences will be.

I truly fear for the future of this country, I really do.

To be clear I cant know if you are a racist or not, I said I can see why people think you are from your posting. Using racist memes like guests have to live differently, intentional or not, is going to cause offence.

I won't be engaging with you further on this subject.

If you can find it within you to offer an unreserved apology so we can re-set relations, then I will be happy to do so again.

Not until then.

I think you are being overly sensitive.

When you use an analogy such as "house guest" in the context of this particular debate, I think you need to accept (or at least consider) the feedback from others that it is not appropriate. Crass even. And if you disagree and wish to stick with it be prepared to expand and develop the analogy to demonstrate how it does in fact work and was a good choice.

I am very happy to be your disinterested and empathetic counterparty for such an exchange.

I`ve worked in the Middle East (Bahrain), and visited places such as Gibraltar many times, and witnessed (to my disappointment) British expats living there, setting up little communities within communities, UK themed pubs, Union Jacks displayed, no attempt whatsoever to learn the local language or join in with local customs or even make friends with local people. They are trying to export a chunk of Britain abroad. I find this depressing, unintelligent and downright rude.

I think that "house guest" is an unwise phrase to use. But the British expats I cite above are house guests in the loose sort of way that I think CR means. And they warrant our disapproval. And I wouldn`t call Bahraini or Spanish people racist in pointing this out.

It's not at all how CR meant the analogy, but Gibraltar is 'our house' (For now at least).

It isn’t at all.

Nevertheless if I was a public figure I’d probably be resigning by the end of the day. What would happen is people like @kinabalu @kamski and @noneoftheabove would whip up a twitterstorm about it, selectively quote it, ascribe a motive, demand action and then the BBC/C4 would pick up on it and report it. And then authority figures would be challenged as to why I was still in post. It would matter about the nuance. Most wouldn’t care.

It does explain why so few people in authority want to challenge simple assumptions in complex ways in highly emotional times.

Why take the risk? The upside is minimal and the downside huge.

A Guardian journo asked this question at the press briefing yesterday:

"If Britain is not a racist country, which implies there is no structural racism in the UK, please can you explain why black, Asian and minority ethnic people are disproportionally dying from Covid 19".

I can`t even begin to enter the mindset of someone who asks such a stupid question as this. Hancock should have torn him a new one. He didn`t of course - he came up with meaningless pandering shite.

These 'journalists' are insane. Why on earth should the government even bother taking questions from what are no longer newspapers, but political campaign groups in all but name - and particularly stupid ones at that?

Day 1, perhaps actual lockdown announcement day: at the annoucement press conference, some Lefty "journalist" from some nonsuch Lefty online rag asked BoJo whether if people disobeyed the lockdown guidance the police would enforce it. Boris audibly recoiled as though it was the most ridiculous thing he had heard. "Police??" he said "I don't think we'll be getting the police involved."

The Very Next Day: Boris: "..and if people don't comply with these measures we will ask the police to get involved."

is why.

Ah, of course - without them the government would never have thought of using the police to enforce the law. These lefty rags are so useful after all!

Do you think they're in favour of the police enforcing the law against vandalism now?

They u-turned in <24hrs. Go back and listen to the press conference. Boris was aghast that anyone could suggest the police might be involved. And then less than a day later, policy changed.

Could it have been the Telegraph that asked the question? Of course. But they didn't. It was some lefty online rag.

Do you think that Ancelotti should have gone to Arsenal instead of Everton?</p>

Wait a minute - I watched Boris' address to the nation announcing the lockdown, and it clearly mentioned that the police would have powers to enforce it, so the exchange you're referring to must have happened before it was implemented.

Even if you're correct - which I'm prepared to grant because I honestly don't remember what was said in every press conference - do you really think the government wouldn't have reconsidered the necessary means of enforcement as soon as it arose as a practical problem? I don't quite see that question as an irreplaceable service to the nation - and not one that outweighs their utter shitness ever since.

BluestBlue said:

Stuartinromford said:

BluestBlue said:

eek said:

Andy_JS said:

eek said:

RobD said:

eek said:

Casino_Royale said:

I tried wading into an argument with PG Tips and Yorkshire Tea on Twitter this morning.

That was a mistake. I basically disagree with everyone.

Twitter is utterly moronic.

You are aware it all started because a Right wing facist tried to go point scoring using Yorkshire Tea as an example.

Yorkshire tea not being idiots didn't want to get involved in something that wasn't their concern but had no choice but to which resulted in their response.

So if you are on the anti- Yorkshire tea / PG Tips side of the argument you've proved Sunil's previous statement about you to be correct.

I don't think you can make that claim without seeing what was said.

I saw both Yorkshire tea and PG Tips initial responses - given the person pushing the point they really did have to respond.

They didn't have to respond. Only in Twitter-land do you have to respond to everything. It's childish.

Nope, it's called protecting brand reputation - companies spend billions on it.

Wake me up when these brands ever jump in to disassociate themselves from the far left...

Like it or not, the far right are seen as being far worse than the far left. I'm not saying whether that is fair or not, but when push came to shove WSC thought much the same.

No. They're more afraid of the far left. Those companies know perfectly well the firestorm they'll generate if they dare to stray an inch to the right of the Twitter-approved 'correct' position.

One tweet can be all it takes to finish you...see Crossfit...the CEO sent a one word tweet, and it is has totally torpedoed them. Most of the corporate tie ins they had immediately ditched them.

ydoethur said:

kinabalu said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

dixiedean said:

Fishing said:

Nigelb said:

Fishing said:

Chris said:

Fishing said:

rottenborough said:

tlg86 said:

rottenborough said:

Government increasing losing the plot totally on unlocking. Looks like a dog's breakfast of personal ministerial whims rather than a plan.

Schools not to reopen for all primary as planned. Hancock now talking about "September at earliest" for secondary.

If we get an autumn wave then we could see many pupils not being in school until next spring. That would be an entire year at home.

Yet we plan to reopen shops, beer gardens, theme parks etc etc. Even talk of holidays in EU from July.

I don't think those things are necessarily contradictory. I suspect the chances of the virus spreading outside is very small. Unfortunately schools have to work indoors. I don't see why businesses and consumers should suffer just because we think they are less important than kids going to school.

For schools, I wonder if something like alternating weeks will be needed for some time whereby half the kids go one week and half the kids go the next? It won't be ideal, but we mustn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Where is the evidence that kids pass this virus on? Or even get it themselves in all but a minuscule minority?

Or have I missed something?

None whatsoever. Schools should never have been closed.

I understand closing them was only put in at the last minute.

Of course there is evidence that children can both get the virus - the ONS survey has found no statistically significant differences between the percentages infected in different age groups - and pass it on.

I agree, they can get the virus, but they very rarely suffer from it. They are about as likely to get struck by lightning as to die from COVID, if they have no comorbities.

Whether they pass it on to any significant extent is not clear. A study of one 9-year old boy in the French Alps had the boy visiting three schools whilst symptomatic, but the researchers found no evidence of transmission of the virus to other pupils in follow-up interviews and testing. There are lots of similar studies ongoing.

But until there is overwhelming evidence that children are transmitting the virus and causing a significant number of deaths overall, schools should be open, just as they are in most other European countries.

Though I know, as you say, facts don't get in the way of your opinions.

The facts are equivocal.

What isn't equivocal is the massive damage this is doing to kids' education, especially poorer kids, and to parents' jobs if they can't afford child care.

Also to abused children, who need school to get away from their difficult family situations for a few hours a day. Oh, and hungry ones, who rely on free school meals to feed them.

Closing schools was a disaster. If this virus affected children the way it does old people, there would be a case for it. But there's no case for keeping them closed when other European countries are reopening them without problems.

Much of it comes down to attitude. We've piled kids high and taught them cheap in this country.
It amused me to hear a Danish primary school teacher on R5L some weeks ago explaining how they had re-opened. After detailing additional measures, she was asked how many kids in her class now.
15.
Oh wow! How many before?
(Obviously confused)...15.

Abolish private schools and you will be amazed how quickly class sizes come down in the state sector.

Or alternatively, cut class sizes in the state sector and watch as private schools close for lack of pupils?

Honestly, some people are really dumb.

Your solution would increase class sizes, at least in the short term, not reduce them.

We agreed on this before in theory. The best single thing to do in order to disincentivize parental opt-out would be to increase the state education budget to a level which brings the funding per pupil up to the same level as the average private school.

But 'in theory' is the operative term here - because in all honesty what do you rate the chances of this ever happening?

Yes. The problem is that neither party is interested in doing it. That has fuck all to do with private schools and everything to do with the Treasury which refuses to raise taxes or cut spending on unnecessary bureaucracy. A great many problems in education, including funding shortages, would be solved tomorrow by abolishing the DfE and OFQUAL, neither of whom are any use at all (as demonstrated when they were ignored over school closures) but both of whom soak up vast sums of money.

That said, LEAs being hopelessly corrupt and incompetent and being more interested in creaming off money for their lovely Mercedes cars rather than spending it on children's education doesn't help either...

OFQUAL's annual budget is less than £20m, I think, and OFSTED though more expensive, and arguably of equal inutility, around £130m; the DoE's claimed administrative spend is around £500m.

So not transformative in cash terms.

kinabalu said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

kamski said:

kinabalu said:

Surrey said:

That's swings of 8.5% and 6.5% away from Trump in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Senior retired Republicans are queuing up to be negative about Trump or even endorse Biden. But the White House is trailing a big "unity" address to the nation this week. The Donald, he can do anything. From the great polariser to the great unifier? Something "great" anyway. He's the greatest and realest, and nothing like a loser or a fake. He can be the unifiers' unifier if he chooses. Best of luck with that. Not sure I've ever seen a US leader so busted this far out.

Yep. Too late now. Some people are on the pitch. The fat lady is fingering her mike. Coronavirus was a golden opportunity to reinvent himself as a credible president. Indeed I was slightly scared that he would somehow manage to do so - it was his one clear chance to head off the big defeat in November that I have long thought inevitable.

But I needn't have worried. The situation merely exposed his almost comical limitations further. He simply does not have the capability to speak or lead in a 'national interest' manner. When he tries it looks and sounds ridiculous because it is so clearly phony. And on top of this you have the glaring lack of competence which is hard to hide when there is a genuine crisis on.

So, sure, he may have another go at 'presidential' but the result will be the same. It will come over as false. Few will be swayed and of those who are it will as likely be the other way. For his hardcore supporters it might still be a case of "To know him is to love him," but for everybody else the opposite now applies. He appears, he speaks, he net repels.

His best re-election strategy in my view would be one of minimalist blandness from here until polling day. Keep his head down. Stay out of the news. But of course it has no chance of being adopted. Instead it will be double down on Boast, Blame, Bluster. Chances of this securing many votes other than his base and those outside it who would vote Republican regardless? Slim to zero. He's toast.

I kind of agree that it's a bit late for him to start acting presidential now. Part of Trump's appeal is that his supporters think that he "tells it likes it is". That doesn't mean he doesn't lie, but when he lies it is entirely in keeping with his character. That's also partly why things like "grab 'em by the pussy" weren't fatal for him. It was obnoxious, but consistent. He's a consistently obnoxious guy. To suddenly switch now would probably turn off his core vote, without convincing anyone else. His best chance is to try and reduce the numbers voting for the other guy, by whatever means. Like everyone says, it's probably going to get really dirty (unless he gives up and starts his own Trumped Up News Channel: "All fake, all of the time!").

It's like the Presidency has been in the hands of a pub boor. It's beginning to seem though that some of his boorish supporters are starting to notice it isn't a good way to run the show.

I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.

Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.

He'd definitely be one of these tossers who never buys his round and takes 7/8 drunk pints back to the bar saying it was 'off'.

LostPassword said:

SandyRentool said:

In the great tea culture wars I require guidance on my choice of brew:

Clipper, Fair Trade, Organic, Plastic-Free Teabags. Clearly good.

But it is Earl Grey. Apparently now bad.

So am I woke or a fascist?

I'd advise drinking Barry's Tea (gold blend, in the red boxes, loose leaf) because it's superior tea.

You think it has anything to do with what the tea tastes like?

A re-education camp awaits you...

kinabalu said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

kamski said:

kinabalu said:

Surrey said:

That's swings of 8.5% and 6.5% away from Trump in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Senior retired Republicans are queuing up to be negative about Trump or even endorse Biden. But the White House is trailing a big "unity" address to the nation this week. The Donald, he can do anything. From the great polariser to the great unifier? Something "great" anyway. He's the greatest and realest, and nothing like a loser or a fake. He can be the unifiers' unifier if he chooses. Best of luck with that. Not sure I've ever seen a US leader so busted this far out.

Yep. Too late now. Some people are on the pitch. The fat lady is fingering her mike. Coronavirus was a golden opportunity to reinvent himself as a credible president. Indeed I was slightly scared that he would somehow manage to do so - it was his one clear chance to head off the big defeat in November that I have long thought inevitable.

But I needn't have worried. The situation merely exposed his almost comical limitations further. He simply does not have the capability to speak or lead in a 'national interest' manner. When he tries it looks and sounds ridiculous because it is so clearly phony. And on top of this you have the glaring lack of competence which is hard to hide when there is a genuine crisis on.

So, sure, he may have another go at 'presidential' but the result will be the same. It will come over as false. Few will be swayed and of those who are it will as likely be the other way. For his hardcore supporters it might still be a case of "To know him is to love him," but for everybody else the opposite now applies. He appears, he speaks, he net repels.

His best re-election strategy in my view would be one of minimalist blandness from here until polling day. Keep his head down. Stay out of the news. But of course it has no chance of being adopted. Instead it will be double down on Boast, Blame, Bluster. Chances of this securing many votes other than his base and those outside it who would vote Republican regardless? Slim to zero. He's toast.

I kind of agree that it's a bit late for him to start acting presidential now. Part of Trump's appeal is that his supporters think that he "tells it likes it is". That doesn't mean he doesn't lie, but when he lies it is entirely in keeping with his character. That's also partly why things like "grab 'em by the pussy" weren't fatal for him. It was obnoxious, but consistent. He's a consistently obnoxious guy. To suddenly switch now would probably turn off his core vote, without convincing anyone else. His best chance is to try and reduce the numbers voting for the other guy, by whatever means. Like everyone says, it's probably going to get really dirty (unless he gives up and starts his own Trumped Up News Channel: "All fake, all of the time!").

It's like the Presidency has been in the hands of a pub boor. It's beginning to seem though that some of his boorish supporters are starting to notice it isn't a good way to run the show.

I like this analogy a lot. It leads to an image of him (very soon) as the loud drunken boor in the pub, standing alone now, well past closing time, still going on and on and on, as the staff start clearing up and preparing to 'have a word'.

Which is one of the exact ways I picture things.

Not exactly alone.
He's perhaps more like the school bully, with his gang following, that the majority have finally got utterly fed up with. And is now due a good kicking.

Honda has said it is dealing with a cyber-attack that is impacting its operations around the world.

"Honda can confirm that a cyber-attack has taken place on the Honda network," the Japanese car-maker said in a statement.

SandyRentool said:

LostPassword said:

SandyRentool said:

In the great tea culture wars I require guidance on my choice of brew:

Clipper, Fair Trade, Organic, Plastic-Free Teabags. Clearly good.

But it is Earl Grey. Apparently now bad.

So am I woke or a fascist?

I'd advise drinking Barry's Tea (gold blend, in the red boxes, loose leaf) because it's superior tea.

You think it has anything to do with what the tea tastes like?

A re-education camp awaits you...

He's drinking Earl Grey - while I actually like that blend, I know plenty of people who regard those who drink it as beyond the pale and pretentious hassocks