contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

This is an excellent article.
Informative about zoonotic viruses, vaccine development, and pharmaceutical economics, amongst other stuff.

How Scientists Could Stop the Next Pandemic Before It Starts
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/magazine/pandemic-vaccine.html

OldKingCole said:

MattW said:

TimT said:

MattW said:

RobD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

I think we need to hear more about government plans for making sure manufacturing capability is there for this Oxford vaccine.

We don't want to be in a situation where it works and then they can't make the thing in the qualities needed for months.

I believe Gates is going to select 7 candidates and have all 7 made in volume before they are even proved to work.

And then logistics. How do you vaccinate 60 million people in under a year?

That shouldn't be *the* major problem, compared to the other majr problems, depending slightly on how complex the vaccine is - eg if it needs multiple jabs.

Each winter around 10 million people are given a flu jab in a small number of months through GPs; it won't be *that* much of a stretch over that. Pressure and work, but doable.

In the US, where I am, it seems most people get their flu jabs either through the pharmacies in the supermarket (all the big name supermarkets have pharmacies) or the big chain pharmacies, such as Walgreen or CVS. I doubt there needs to be any capacity constraints if the UK were to permit pharmacists to administer the shots.

It's also an easy one to do - subcutaneous or intramuscular. I did my insulin injections that way for 15 years myself.

Pharmacists in UK DO administer the vaccine; might not be England-wide..... depends on the CCG. Certainly do in Mid Essex CCG. Usually get mine from the surgery, but I suspect that's habit. Pharmacy is more convenient!

Got my last flu jab in Sainsbury’s.

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

Yes that's a good point.

IF those are the terms of the issue.

MaxPB said:

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

There's no way that the EU will be able to sell paper for 0.5% on a perpetual bond. Not even Germany could do that.

For a perpetual bond they will need to address a lot of specific circumstances such as dissolution of the bloc and who takes on the liability.

It's the worst of all ideas.

So very EU.

Think rather concerning from todays briefing is that the numbers in hospital aren't really going down. It is going to mean it is likely be many weeks before we see deaths to really drop off.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Nigelb said:

Jonathan said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

tlg86 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

tlg86 said:

https://tinyurl.com/yc2hb5ht

The triumph of Imperial college in this week’s final was pleasing – it’s always pleasing to see an Oxbridge college brought down a peg or two – and the breadth of knowledge displayed was incredibly impressive. But we cannot be expected to believe that there wasn’t a single female student at Imperial or Corpus Christi who could have added to those teams.

I dont need to click to guess... Guardian?

When I was watching the final this evening, I thought "I bet the Guardian has the article ready to go."

Imperial College London 275
Corpus Christi Cambridge 105

Imperial will take anyone, even girls occasionally.

Apparently girls will even apply, occasionally.

"Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial entanglements."

I’m sure you got your ten thousand in advance, Sunil.

contrarian said:

MaxPB said:

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

There's no way that the EU will be able to sell paper for 0.5% on a perpetual bond. Not even Germany could do that.

For a perpetual bond they will need to address a lot of specific circumstances such as dissolution of the bloc and who takes on the liability.

It's the worst of all ideas.

They might get away with a hundred year deal though, plenty of examples of that, and far enough away to forget about for now

Not at 0.5% they won't. It's also long enough that creditors will want assurances on the dissolution of the bloc.

MaxPB said:

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

There's no way that the EU will be able to sell paper for 0.5% on a perpetual bond. Not even Germany could do that.

For a perpetual bond they will need to address a lot of specific circumstances such as dissolution of the bloc and who takes on the liability.

It's the worst of all ideas.

If you haven't got a solution that works, at least by coming up with a solution you can say you tried - the problem wasn't us, it was the market.

MaxPB said:

contrarian said:

MaxPB said:

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

There's no way that the EU will be able to sell paper for 0.5% on a perpetual bond. Not even Germany could do that.

For a perpetual bond they will need to address a lot of specific circumstances such as dissolution of the bloc and who takes on the liability.

It's the worst of all ideas.

They might get away with a hundred year deal though, plenty of examples of that, and far enough away to forget about for now

Not at 0.5% they won't. It's also long enough that creditors will want assurances on the dissolution of the bloc.

Well let's see.

Predictions of the Euros imminent collapse are a perennial PB favourite. As predictable as cuckoos in spring.

Nurse Vacancies at record levels always going to be a problem
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/nurse-shortage-causes-nightingale-hospital-to-turn-away-patients

eek said:

MaxPB said:

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

There's no way that the EU will be able to sell paper for 0.5% on a perpetual bond. Not even Germany could do that.

For a perpetual bond they will need to address a lot of specific circumstances such as dissolution of the bloc and who takes on the liability.

It's the worst of all ideas.

If you haven't got a solution that works, at least by coming up with a solution you can say you tried - the problem wasn't us, it was the market.

I suspect that it will be a form of QE, with the central bank buying the bonds, so not very different to what we are doing.

Luckyguy1983 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh FFS

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1252632433742274561

I suppose I should look at it as Darwinism in action.

It is Darwinism in action if somebody decides to chug down a bottle of toilet duck. For people following the instructions, it is not going to be dangerous. We ingest poisonous/corrosive substances at safe dilutions all the time. Alcohol, horseradish, vinegar being a few favourites.

Whether it is efficacious is another question. In principle it's not a bad idea. 'Bleach' kills viruses when used as a cleaning agent. If said bleach can be administered somehow, in a way that kills the virus but leaves the cells and organs healthy, that would be the dream situation. Chemotherapy works in much the same way, and again, it kills people (probably many more people than bleach drinking).

Mmm. 6 drops with 60 mils of water. Call that a solution?

Pulpstar said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh FFS

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1252632433742274561

I suppose I should look at it as Darwinism in action.

It is Darwinism in action if somebody decides to chug down a bottle of toilet duck. For people following the instructions, it is not going to be dangerous. We ingest poisonous/corrosive substances at safe dilutions all the time. Alcohol, horseradish, vinegar being a few favourites.

Whether it is efficacious is another question. In principle it's not a bad idea. 'Bleach' kills viruses when used as a cleaning agent. If said bleach can be administered somehow, in a way that kills the virus but leaves the cells and organs healthy, that would be the dream situation. Chemotherapy works in much the same way, and again, it kills people (probably many more people than bleach drinking).

Even if your theory was correct (It's not), the virus is in the lungs & trachea . Swallowing any sort of chemical agent won't work.

I have never taken 'miracle mineral solution', and I have no idea how it's mean to work. I suspect its adherents believe it enters the bloodstream or attacks viruses in some other way. That isn't really my point. My point is that this is a sensationalist article about 'bleach drinking' - no doubt it contains a reference to some hick who burnt all their insides away etc. etc., so people can feel smug and not explore further. That isn't the way to deal with a flawed medical theory - the way is to open it up to the light of investigation, whereupon its flaws will become obvious.

MattW said:

RobD said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

I think we need to hear more about government plans for making sure manufacturing capability is there for this Oxford vaccine.

We don't want to be in a situation where it works and then they can't make the thing in the qualities needed for months.

I believe Gates is going to select 7 candidates and have all 7 made in volume before they are even proved to work.

And then logistics. How do you vaccinate 60 million people in under a year?

That shouldn't be *the* major problem, compared to the other majr problems, depending slightly on how complex the vaccine is - eg if it needs multiple jabs.

Each winter around 10 million people are given a flu jab in a small number of months through GPs; it won't be *that* much of a stretch over that. Pressure and work, but doable.

A single nurse should be able to vaccinate 5 people an hour, day 35 a day or 175 a week, 700 a month.

Not to appear to be a "its just like flu", but stat from the ONS figures.

The number of deaths from flu and pneumonia for 2020, are more than 32,000.

Luckyguy1983 said:

Foxy said:

https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2

A non randomised US retrospective study on hydroxychloroquine and hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin. Higher mortality in US veterans in the treated group, probably from cardiac causes.

We need proper randomised prospective studies. Even in a desperate situation we should not abandon science.

It has been widely publicised that the drug is very effective when paired with zinc. To grossly over simplify, the drug allows zinc into the affected cell. If these tests did not use zinc, their value is questionable.

Being "widely publicised" is not a valid scientific method of study.

Foxy said:

dixiedean said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh FFS

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1252632433742274561

I suppose I should look at it as Darwinism in action.

It is Darwinism in action if somebody decides to chug down a bottle of toilet duck. For people following the instructions, it is not going to be dangerous. We ingest poisonous/corrosive substances at safe dilutions all the time. Alcohol, horseradish, vinegar being a few favourites.

Whether it is efficacious is another question. In principle it's not a bad idea. 'Bleach' kills viruses when used as a cleaning agent. If said bleach can be administered somehow, in a way that kills the virus but leaves the cells and organs healthy, that would be the dream situation. Chemotherapy works in much the same way, and again, it kills people (probably many more people than bleach drinking).

Mmm. 6 drops with 60 mils of water. Call that a solution?

Why not just use Milton solution, as with babies bottles? That is bleach at a safe concentration.

I saw a suicide from bleach drinking some years ago. Horrible, untreatable pharyngeal and oesophagus chemical burns. A truly horrible way to go.

From the last argument we had about it here,Miracle Mineral Solution is not made from standard household bleach.

Now we are starting to get into the weeds over privacy...

BBC News - Coronavirus: Apple and France in stand-off over contact-tracing app
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52366129

stodge said:

Evening All

I see Ireland has banned all "mass gatherings" until September so that means the Galway Festival, seven days of liver-busting equine and associated entertainment, will, if it happens at all, take place behind closed doors.

This will be a huge blow for the racecourse and the city.

That's nothing. Bavaria has cancelled Oktoberfest.

eristdoof said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

stodge said:

Evening All

I see Ireland has banned all "mass gatherings" until September so that means the Galway Festival, seven days of liver-busting equine and associated entertainment, will, if it happens at all, take place behind closed doors.

This will be a huge blow for the racecourse and the city.

That's nothing. Bavaria has cancelled Oktoberfest.

THe Oktoberfest is only in Munich

I've said for years the Scots have missed out on not holding an annual Scotchoberfest.

eristdoof said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

stodge said:

Evening All

I see Ireland has banned all "mass gatherings" until September so that means the Galway Festival, seven days of liver-busting equine and associated entertainment, will, if it happens at all, take place behind closed doors.

This will be a huge blow for the racecourse and the city.

That's nothing. Bavaria has cancelled Oktoberfest.

THe Oktoberfest is only in Munich

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/21/bitter-pill-bavaria-cancels-oktoberfest-over-fears-of-coronavirus-spread

MaxPB said:

contrarian said:

MaxPB said:

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

There is a fascinating bit of info in that Bloomberg story.

The proposal for the relief fund of a mere EUR1tln is that the Commission will raise the money and administer the cash via a credit line system which takes account of the fact some need money more than others.

All fine and Dandy, until you find out who is backing the fund. The member states of the EU and...er.....the EU BUDGET.

All of which makes for an incredibly fascinating discussion about EU budget contributions in the future

Unless of course you have left the EU - and you don;t owe a bean

That is the reason for it being a Perpetual (interest only) bond. At 0.5% a Trillion Euro issue costs €5 billion per year in interest. Quite a bargain from the financial wizards, and not too difficult to service.

There's no way that the EU will be able to sell paper for 0.5% on a perpetual bond. Not even Germany could do that.

For a perpetual bond they will need to address a lot of specific circumstances such as dissolution of the bloc and who takes on the liability.

It's the worst of all ideas.

They might get away with a hundred year deal though, plenty of examples of that, and far enough away to forget about for now

Not at 0.5% they won't. It's also long enough that creditors will want assurances on the dissolution of the bloc.

Austria’s 50 year bond is at .501

Pulpstar said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh FFS

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1252632433742274561

I suppose I should look at it as Darwinism in action.

It is Darwinism in action if somebody decides to chug down a bottle of toilet duck. For people following the instructions, it is not going to be dangerous. We ingest poisonous/corrosive substances at safe dilutions all the time. Alcohol, horseradish, vinegar being a few favourites.

Whether it is efficacious is another question. In principle it's not a bad idea. 'Bleach' kills viruses when used as a cleaning agent. If said bleach can be administered somehow, in a way that kills the virus but leaves the cells and organs healthy, that would be the dream situation. Chemotherapy works in much the same way, and again, it kills people (probably many more people than bleach drinking).

Even if your theory was correct (It's not), the virus is in the lungs & trachea . Swallowing any sort of chemical agent won't work.

I think to be virucidal, Milton (correctly diluted) needs 30 minutes of contact. I think that hard to achieve with a mouthwash.

There is an interesting side issue to this. I do wonder (and it is pure speculation on my part!) that getting upper respiratory infection or gastrointestinal infection may actually be protective.

We know the virus enters the cells via the ACE2 receptor protein which is found in nose and throat as well as lungs, and gut. If the infection starts there and stimulates immunity, then that may well be a head start on immunity before the bug spreads into the lungs, which is where the fatal complications happen.

To compare with plague (!) The bubonic (skin entry from flea bite) form took several days to develop, and had 50% mortality, but the pneumonic (airborne) form killed nearly a 100% within 24 hours.

Mum and I were having a, shall we say, "lively" discussion over some of the answers to today's "Countdown" game show earlier, and she ended up saying I was "as stupid as that Matt Hancock idiot"

Foxy said:

There is an interesting side issue to this. I do wonder (and it is pure speculation on my part!) that getting upper respiratory infection or gastrointestinal infection may actually be protective.

Did you see this?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

isam said:

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1252698373439852546?s=21

I dont mean to be a negative nelly, but outside of the two big hotspot, all the other regions are showing basically flat.

isam said:

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1252698373439852546?s=21

Will we get a graph that matches Isaac Ben-Israel, Chairman of the Israeli Space Agency's prediction?

NEW THREAD

TheScreamingEagles said:

eristdoof said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

stodge said:

Evening All

I see Ireland has banned all "mass gatherings" until September so that means the Galway Festival, seven days of liver-busting equine and associated entertainment, will, if it happens at all, take place behind closed doors.

This will be a huge blow for the racecourse and the city.

That's nothing. Bavaria has cancelled Oktoberfest.

THe Oktoberfest is only in Munich

I've said for years the Scots have missed out on not holding an annual Scotchoberfest.

Isn’t that the Edinburgh Fringe every August?

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1252695868567883776

Left wing (as per her twitter bio) health professor makes statement with no evidence to back up and no obvious expertise in manufacturing or supply chains.

And Paul Mason too.. ignore..