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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    And for @MyBurningEars, an example of scrupulous twitter etiquette:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1250410931206721536?s=21

    Fair play.
    I daresay that there will still be a goon somewhere (even on here possibly) claiming that he's been got at by the ubiquitous, persuasive tentacles of the Natz.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763
    edited April 2020
    TOPPING said:

    Socky said:

    TOPPING said:

    an ongoing deep recession prompted by a global pandemic would be a good time to bury leaving the EU with no deal.

    Or maybe as in the post-WW2 period, this is the opportunity for a reset and fresh independent thinking.
    Not a bad idea at all. All kinds of trade flows, contingencies, supply chains, etc will have been dramatically revised and new relationships put in their place (whether inter- or intra-nationally).

    As such a review and fresh independent thinking would be very sensible. But in that spirit, it would be ridiculous to try to leave the EU *at the same time*.

    Once this has subsided, let's as you say see where we are, and then make some sensible decisions. We will be tying our hands if we try to pursue it right now as with everyone being so vulnerable (as in national trade positions) we don't want to be in a position whereby we aren't able to leverage whatever strengths we find we have post-Covid19.
    We have left the EU. Didn't you notice? I am sure it was mentioned on here at least a couple of times.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    MattW said:

    Socky said:

    MattW said:

    @Cyclefree Gardening Corner (12)

    What do you guys do for composting? I have a single 'dalek' composter, and I need to get a further one, or change the arrangement.

    Daleks are good. They should come with a lid though, and I have found they work better when the contents are kept damp.
    Yes there's a lid :-). Having no lawn I need more greens, though.
    I assume it is directly on the ground and that there is no bottom so that the worms can get up into the material and do their stuff.

    If you have the space you can go for the full Monty Don experience: 3 spaces side by side bounded by wooden fencing and open to the sky. First one is for all the stuff you initially put in, then as it rots down and you turn it you put it into the middle section and let it rot some more. Then finally you turn it and put it into the last section where it turns into the lovely sweet smelling crumbly compost we all love.

    For those of us without the space, I have found the wooden beehive composters to be pretty effective. And also quite attractive. If you have the space you can put two in and do a truncated version of what I’ve described above. But even if you do nothing, eventually it will all rot down. Just make sure you put them somewhere where it is easy to access the compost at the bottom.

    Bob Flowerdew once pointed out that urine can be effective at speeding up the rotting process. It is not essential however ......
    Peeing on a compost heap is an old gardeners trick.

    Younger ones can usually make it to the loo in time.....
    An old MALE gardener’s trick......
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Latest data



  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Public Health Wales said the number of deaths in the country had reached 463, a rise of 60.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    Coronavirus makes a 31/12 Brexit timing severely sub-optimal.

    The talk of a second wave in Winter is not just a generalisation, it fits absolutely with the pattern of previous pandemics: the warmth of summer will have a suppressive effect alongside whatever relaxed social distancing we end up with, but momentum will start to build again in early October and, depending on the success of apps, treatments and the rest of it, a second peak, with all that entails, within 4 weeks of Christmas is odds-on.

    So, how does France, in particular, respond to a large increase in the requirement for Border Officers to go-live with disruptive new ways of working that require close quarters supervision in the peak of the second wave. If we're lucky, enforcement is suspended on an emergency basis and trade continues unimpeded. If we're unlucky: and France decides this: we end up with a fully closed trade border in addition to people not passing. A blockade, if you like. Do you feel lucky, Brexiteer punk?

    Let's be helpful. Alistair Meek's one year delay isn't the best, its height of winter again. But July 31st 2021, say. Final, final date. That suits.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Oxford University to begin tests of its coronavirus vaccine on humans NEXT WEEK Oxford's vaccine programme has already recruited 510 people, aged between 18 and 55, to take part in the first trial.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8221379/Oxford-University-begin-tests-coronavirus-vaccine-humans-WEEK.html

    Lets hope the second rate university comes good.
  • Since it’s gardening chat.

    I’m thinking of growing some fungi, how much space will I need to grow the fungi?

    I’m guessing I’ll need as mushroom as possible? Am I right?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Barnesian said:

    Latest data



    Hopeful signs at last, lets hope we are past the peak
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    UK new deaths 801

    That's a decline from the peak. We may indeed be over the worst. Deus Vult.

    That's a 150 from the nations excluding England. That seems more than usual.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    DavidL said:


    TOPPING said:

    Socky said:

    TOPPING said:

    an ongoing deep recession prompted by a global pandemic would be a good time to bury leaving the EU with no deal.

    Or maybe as in the post-WW2 period, this is the opportunity for a reset and fresh independent thinking.
    Not a bad idea at all. All kinds of trade flows, contingencies, supply chains, etc will have been dramatically revised and new relationships put in their place (whether inter- or intra-nationally).

    As such a review and fresh independent thinking would be very sensible. But in that spirit, it would be ridiculous to try to leave the EU *at the same time*.

    Once this has subsided, let's as you say see where we are, and then make some sensible decisions. We will be tying our hands if we try to pursue it right now as with everyone being so vulnerable (as in national trade positions) we don't want to be in a position whereby we aren't able to leverage whatever strengths we find we have post-Covid19.
    We have left the EU. Didn't you notice? I am sure it was mentioned on here at least a couple of times.
    Not really. We haven't left the EU by any practical measure. We are still in the position we have been in for the past 40 years (albeit with less say, AIUI).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763

    eadric said:

    UK new deaths 801

    That's a decline from the peak. We may indeed be over the worst. Deus Vult.

    That's a 150 from the nations excluding England. That seems more than usual.
    The Scottish numbers now try to include care homes which gives them a slightly different basis.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    The fuss was over 3 products out of over 2,000.....

    Each day we distribute millions of items of PPE to care settings in Scotland, Wales and England. Our committed team have been working incredibly hard to make sure that everyone who has been a regular customer of Gompels can continue to access the stocks that we can buy in these difficult times.

    Stocks of PPE are at a record low in the UK and coronavirus has created massive demand for products that would not normally be widely used in a care setting. This has meant that the usual supply channels are unable to fulfil the requirements. Pandemic flu stocks have been released under the Department of Health & Social Care Covid-19: Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Plan.

    These pandemic English pandemic flu stocks are mandated for supply to CQC registered settings operating in England. Currently there are only 3 products from over 2000 that this relates to. We continue to supply on a daily basis our full range (less these 3 products from Public Health England) to Care providers in Wales and Scotland.


    https://www.gompels.co.uk/latest-news/doing-our-best-to-supply-ppe.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Scotland said 84 more people have died there, Wales 60 and Northern Ireland six - a total of 150

    Significant jumps in Scotland and Wales. Perhaps bank holiday effect of reporting.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,616
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270

    Some actual detail on the ventilator issues and designs.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Those press questions today in full:

    Have we peaked?

    When was the peak?

    Have we peaked?

    Has the number of daily deaths, er, peaked?

    Are we likely to see the number of deaths rise to the levels of previous highs?

    Have we, ur, [long theatrical pause] peeeeeeeeeeeeeaked?

    Can I go out and play in the park with my mates now?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    UK new deaths 801

    That's a decline from the peak. We may indeed be over the worst. Deus Vult.

    That's a 150 from the nations excluding England. That seems more than usual.
    The Scottish numbers now try to include care homes which gives them a slightly different basis.
    So we are now not only comparing apples and oranges over dates of deaths, we are now counting different "standard" by which we include a death in the figures.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    UK new deaths 801

    That's a decline from the peak. We may indeed be over the worst. Deus Vult.

    That's a 150 from the nations excluding England. That seems more than usual.
    The Scottish numbers now try to include care homes which gives them a slightly different basis.
    That makes the 801 figure better than without those deaths.

    How about Wales ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    UK new deaths 801

    That's a decline from the peak. We may indeed be over the worst. Deus Vult.

    That's a 150 from the nations excluding England. That seems more than usual.
    The Scottish numbers now try to include care homes which gives them a slightly different basis.
    That makes the 801 figure better than without those deaths.

    How about Wales ?

    Those press questions today in full:

    Have we peaked?

    When was the peak?

    Have we peaked?

    Has the number of daily deaths, er, peaked?

    Are we likely to see the number of deaths rise to the levels of previous highs?

    Have we, ur, [long theatrical pause] peeeeeeeeeeeeeaked?

    Can I go out and play in the park with my mates now?

    Dan Hodges is itching to get down the pub.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020

    Those press questions today in full:

    Have we peaked?

    When was the peak?

    Have we peaked?

    Has the number of daily deaths, er, peaked?

    Are we likely to see the number of deaths rise to the levels of previous highs?

    Have we, ur, [long theatrical pause] peeeeeeeeeeeeeaked?

    Can I go out and play in the park with my mates now?

    You missed the most knuckle head one of the variety the "why won't the government tell us x"....its on the government websites, and these stats have been collected since 1849.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730

    isam said:

    ...

    TGOHF666 said:

    Well don’t say I didn’t warn you:

    https://twitter.com/speccoffeehouse/status/1250385973181067266?s=21

    Perhaps some of those self-declared moderate Leavers might, you know, start actually voicing their opinions instead of waiting for others to do their dirty work?

    Great news - these chaps are showing us the way - that working from home can be productive.

    Also - we can use the £12Bn membership fee for next year to pay down debt.

    Clearly the Government is mad. It is beyond bonkers to keep the possibility of a No Deal exit on the table just as the possible 2nd wave of virus hits next winter.

    Tories will be out of office for a generation once the voters get their say on that.

    All the self-proclaimed moderate Leavers who have been slating me for weeks for pointing out what was coming will by then have decided that was what they always wanted. The self-radicalisation will have taken another turn of the screw.
    Wouldn't bother me if we stayed in! Mass, uncontrolled, immigration is a thing of the past now
    So it was just about prejudice all along. Well I never!
    Well it wasnt!

    Love the fact you called me "Brexit obsessed" yesterday by the way, Mr... what was that surname again?
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461

    Since it’s gardening chat.

    I’m thinking of growing some fungi, how much space will I need to grow the fungi?

    I’m guessing I’ll need as mushroom as possible? Am I right?

    Yes. But dont cut yourself harvesting them. You might get Cepsis.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730

    isam said:

    ...

    TGOHF666 said:

    Well don’t say I didn’t warn you:

    https://twitter.com/speccoffeehouse/status/1250385973181067266?s=21

    Perhaps some of those self-declared moderate Leavers might, you know, start actually voicing their opinions instead of waiting for others to do their dirty work?

    Great news - these chaps are showing us the way - that working from home can be productive.

    Also - we can use the £12Bn membership fee for next year to pay down debt.

    Clearly the Government is mad. It is beyond bonkers to keep the possibility of a No Deal exit on the table just as the possible 2nd wave of virus hits next winter.

    Tories will be out of office for a generation once the voters get their say on that.

    All the self-proclaimed moderate Leavers who have been slating me for weeks for pointing out what was coming will by then have decided that was what they always wanted. The self-radicalisation will have taken another turn of the screw.
    Wouldn't bother me if we stayed in! Mass, uncontrolled, immigration is a thing of the past now
    That's an astonishingly naive comment.

    Its still part of the globalist agenda and there are endless millions throughout the world who will always want to move to western countries.
    Flippant really, rather than naive.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763

    Those press questions today in full:

    Have we peaked?

    When was the peak?

    Have we peaked?

    Has the number of daily deaths, er, peaked?

    Are we likely to see the number of deaths rise to the levels of previous highs?

    Have we, ur, [long theatrical pause] peeeeeeeeeeeeeaked?

    Can I go out and play in the park with my mates now?

    That second last question is a poor imitation of Peston, It would be much more dragged out than that.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272

    The fuss was over 3 products out of over 2,000.....

    Each day we distribute millions of items of PPE to care settings in Scotland, Wales and England. Our committed team have been working incredibly hard to make sure that everyone who has been a regular customer of Gompels can continue to access the stocks that we can buy in these difficult times.

    Stocks of PPE are at a record low in the UK and coronavirus has created massive demand for products that would not normally be widely used in a care setting. This has meant that the usual supply channels are unable to fulfil the requirements. Pandemic flu stocks have been released under the Department of Health & Social Care Covid-19: Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Plan.

    These pandemic English pandemic flu stocks are mandated for supply to CQC registered settings operating in England. Currently there are only 3 products from over 2000 that this relates to. We continue to supply on a daily basis our full range (less these 3 products from Public Health England) to Care providers in Wales and Scotland.


    https://www.gompels.co.uk/latest-news/doing-our-best-to-supply-ppe.html

    Well soldier, we have all the equipment you need to fight this war. All 2000 pieces from the entrenching tool to your ammunition. However, we don't have your rifle, helmet or boots. Sorry.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    Well don’t say I didn’t warn you:

    https://twitter.com/speccoffeehouse/status/1250385973181067266?s=21

    Perhaps some of those self-declared moderate Leavers might, you know, start actually voicing their opinions instead of waiting for others to do their dirty work?

    The negotiations have just started. Do you really think it is a productive thing to do for the first thing on the agenda of a negotiation to agree that there won't be a conclusion?

    There is plenty of time to delay things if they get stuck but the ideal is that there is no ongoing uncertainty and we have a good and open trading relationship with the EU on confirmed terms by the end of this year. There will be enough uncertainty going forward without that. I suspect that the virus may play a positive part in this. It really isn't the time for either side to muck about seeking some petty perceived advantage.
    Erm, a decision to extend needs to be taken by the end of June. Given that the government (and every other European government) has its hands quite full just now, yes I do think it would be a productive thing to agree at least a year’s delay. I’m amazed anyone can seriously imagine otherwise.
    The lockdown really is starting to bite - we've now got 2019 project fear omelette being reheated and served up.

    Oh dear the Brexit self-harmers are bringing out their best clichés again. No doubt you have had enough of experts and Covid-19 is just another ruse to thwart the will-o-the-people. How long before the EU gets the blame for the fact that we have had 3X as many fatalities as Germany. Dominic Cumming's herd immunity theory was all to do with knowing that his Brexit supporting dumbass herd would still keep believing, even when the facts backed the experts.
    Whats the collective noun for straw men ? A twatload ?
    A gummidge
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270

    Some actual detail on the ventilator issues and designs.

    This is the biggest part of that,

    Mercedes have turned over their entire UK engine base in Brixworth to the production of the CPAP device and are producing up to 1,000 units a day.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    The fuss was over 3 products out of over 2,000.....

    Each day we distribute millions of items of PPE to care settings in Scotland, Wales and England. Our committed team have been working incredibly hard to make sure that everyone who has been a regular customer of Gompels can continue to access the stocks that we can buy in these difficult times.

    Stocks of PPE are at a record low in the UK and coronavirus has created massive demand for products that would not normally be widely used in a care setting. This has meant that the usual supply channels are unable to fulfil the requirements. Pandemic flu stocks have been released under the Department of Health & Social Care Covid-19: Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Plan.

    These pandemic English pandemic flu stocks are mandated for supply to CQC registered settings operating in England. Currently there are only 3 products from over 2000 that this relates to. We continue to supply on a daily basis our full range (less these 3 products from Public Health England) to Care providers in Wales and Scotland.


    https://www.gompels.co.uk/latest-news/doing-our-best-to-supply-ppe.html

    So the National is kicking up a fuss because stocks reserved for England aren't being used in Scotland? That seems like a problem for the devolved body in Scotland.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020
    What are they playing about with the testing....they got to 18,000 before the Easter holidays.

    Also the official death stat today is 761, not 810, due the differing reporting times.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1250416371453669377?s=20
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730

    isam said:

    ...

    TGOHF666 said:

    Well don’t say I didn’t warn you:

    https://twitter.com/speccoffeehouse/status/1250385973181067266?s=21

    Perhaps some of those self-declared moderate Leavers might, you know, start actually voicing their opinions instead of waiting for others to do their dirty work?

    Great news - these chaps are showing us the way - that working from home can be productive.

    Also - we can use the £12Bn membership fee for next year to pay down debt.

    Clearly the Government is mad. It is beyond bonkers to keep the possibility of a No Deal exit on the table just as the possible 2nd wave of virus hits next winter.

    Tories will be out of office for a generation once the voters get their say on that.

    All the self-proclaimed moderate Leavers who have been slating me for weeks for pointing out what was coming will by then have decided that was what they always wanted. The self-radicalisation will have taken another turn of the screw.
    Wouldn't bother me if we stayed in! Mass, uncontrolled, immigration is a thing of the past now
    Weren't you feeling nostalgic about your childhood listening to Soul II Soul the other day?
    Sure was
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441

    Scotland said 84 more people have died there, Wales 60 and Northern Ireland six - a total of 150

    Significant jumps in Scotland and Wales. Perhaps bank holiday effect of reporting.

    Scotland reported very few deaths over the weekend (I think it was 9 on one day and 26 on another) and they'd been averaging 40-50 before that. I think this is a one off correction there. Also, note the 84 will be counted tomorrow in the UK wide figures, so there will be ~110 cases (40 in Scotland; 60 in Wales and 10 in N Ireland) to add to the English total - so about 760 or so in sum for today I think.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Since it’s gardening chat.

    I’m thinking of growing some fungi, how much space will I need to grow the fungi?

    I’m guessing I’ll need as mushroom as possible? Am I right?

    Only if you're a fun guy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,763
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    eadric said:

    UK new deaths 801

    That's a decline from the peak. We may indeed be over the worst. Deus Vult.

    That's a 150 from the nations excluding England. That seems more than usual.
    The Scottish numbers now try to include care homes which gives them a slightly different basis.
    That makes the 801 figure better than without those deaths.

    Don't know but you are right on a comparable basis. At the conference yesterday England said that they were trying to do the same which will give us an artificial "peak" at some point as they got in France.

    How about Wales ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Rata, I think there's merit in that idea.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    England deaths down today on first day not affected by bank holiday. Now clear peak was last Wednesday.

    Link?
    Same place as everyday

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    Genuinely great news. Hope the usual misery merchants on here will be willing to take it in.
    5/651 under 40 years of age
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,140
    eadric said:

    Incidentally, regarding plague literature, which we - mainly me - were discussing yesterday, I have since learned that Yeats, Eliot and Woolf all suffered in the Spanish Flu, Eliot and Woolf had it, and Yeats watched his wife nearly die of it.

    Yeats alludes to it in The Second Coming:

    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

    Spanish flu, like coronavirus, drowns the sufferer in his own fluids.

    Mrs Dalloway is full of references to Woolf's experience.

    And Eliot wrote about the flu in the first part of The Waste Land:

    Unreal City,
    Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,
    A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,
    I had not thought death had undone so many.
    Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled,
    And each man fixed his eyes before his feet.

    Thanks. Most interesting.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    RobD said:

    The fuss was over 3 products out of over 2,000.....

    Each day we distribute millions of items of PPE to care settings in Scotland, Wales and England. Our committed team have been working incredibly hard to make sure that everyone who has been a regular customer of Gompels can continue to access the stocks that we can buy in these difficult times.

    Stocks of PPE are at a record low in the UK and coronavirus has created massive demand for products that would not normally be widely used in a care setting. This has meant that the usual supply channels are unable to fulfil the requirements. Pandemic flu stocks have been released under the Department of Health & Social Care Covid-19: Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Plan.

    These pandemic English pandemic flu stocks are mandated for supply to CQC registered settings operating in England. Currently there are only 3 products from over 2000 that this relates to. We continue to supply on a daily basis our full range (less these 3 products from Public Health England) to Care providers in Wales and Scotland.


    https://www.gompels.co.uk/latest-news/doing-our-best-to-supply-ppe.html

    So the National is kicking up a fuss because stocks reserved for England aren't being used in Scotland? That seems like a problem for the devolved body in Scotland.
    Nope, it's an excuse for the SNP to accuse everyone of being unfair to Scotland in their usual woe is me approach that MalcolmG loves.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    DavidL said:

    Those press questions today in full:

    Have we peaked?

    When was the peak?

    Have we peaked?

    Has the number of daily deaths, er, peaked?

    Are we likely to see the number of deaths rise to the levels of previous highs?

    Have we, ur, [long theatrical pause] peeeeeeeeeeeeeaked?

    Can I go out and play in the park with my mates now?

    That second last question is a poor imitation of Peston, It would be much more dragged out than that.
    I put it down to there being a limited number of characters you can post....
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    eadric said:

    Incidentally, regarding plague literature, which we - mainly me - were discussing yesterday, I have since learned that Yeats, Eliot and Woolf all suffered in the Spanish Flu, Eliot and Woolf had it, and Yeats watched his wife nearly die of it.

    Yeats alludes to it in The Second Coming:

    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

    Spanish flu, like coronavirus, drowns the sufferer in his own fluids.

    Mrs Dalloway is full of references to Woolf's experience.

    And Eliot wrote about the flu in the first part of The Waste Land:

    Unreal City,
    Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,
    A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,
    I had not thought death had undone so many.
    Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled,
    And each man fixed his eyes before his feet.

    Wasn't that just Eliot on a good day?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,616

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270

    Some actual detail on the ventilator issues and designs.

    This is the biggest part of that,

    Mercedes have turned over their entire UK engine base in Brixworth to the production of the CPAP device and are producing up to 1,000 units a day.
    What is also interesting is that the F1 correspondent managed to write a story full of detail. In a simple, understandable manner.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    The fuss was over 3 products out of over 2,000.....

    Each day we distribute millions of items of PPE to care settings in Scotland, Wales and England. Our committed team have been working incredibly hard to make sure that everyone who has been a regular customer of Gompels can continue to access the stocks that we can buy in these difficult times.

    Stocks of PPE are at a record low in the UK and coronavirus has created massive demand for products that would not normally be widely used in a care setting. This has meant that the usual supply channels are unable to fulfil the requirements. Pandemic flu stocks have been released under the Department of Health & Social Care Covid-19: Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Plan.

    These pandemic English pandemic flu stocks are mandated for supply to CQC registered settings operating in England. Currently there are only 3 products from over 2000 that this relates to. We continue to supply on a daily basis our full range (less these 3 products from Public Health England) to Care providers in Wales and Scotland.


    https://www.gompels.co.uk/latest-news/doing-our-best-to-supply-ppe.html

    So the National is kicking up a fuss because stocks reserved for England aren't being used in Scotland? That seems like a problem for the devolved body in Scotland.
    Nope, it's an excuse for the SNP to accuse everyone of being unfair to Scotland in their usual woe is me approach that MalcolmG loves.
    Ah yes, the grievance machine.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,997
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:


    TOPPING said:

    Socky said:

    TOPPING said:

    an ongoing deep recession prompted by a global pandemic would be a good time to bury leaving the EU with no deal.

    Or maybe as in the post-WW2 period, this is the opportunity for a reset and fresh independent thinking.
    Not a bad idea at all. All kinds of trade flows, contingencies, supply chains, etc will have been dramatically revised and new relationships put in their place (whether inter- or intra-nationally).

    As such a review and fresh independent thinking would be very sensible. But in that spirit, it would be ridiculous to try to leave the EU *at the same time*.

    Once this has subsided, let's as you say see where we are, and then make some sensible decisions. We will be tying our hands if we try to pursue it right now as with everyone being so vulnerable (as in national trade positions) we don't want to be in a position whereby we aren't able to leverage whatever strengths we find we have post-Covid19.
    We have left the EU. Didn't you notice? I am sure it was mentioned on here at least a couple of times.
    Not really. We haven't left the EU by any practical measure. We are still in the position we have been in for the past 40 years (albeit with less say, AIUI).
    Indeed, I wasn't allowed to buy duty free at Pafos airport, I had to pay the slightly higher duty paid price. But I wasn't limited to 1 litre though. Should have bought more... didn't realise I'd be stuck drinking at home for the foreseeable.

    One thing that has changed is visa arrangements. We have already got independent entry agreements with some countries, some have rolled over the EU arrangements, others we have a temporary fix with, for example Ukraine who have agreed to extend visa free travel until the end of the year (I think they want us to offer them visa free travel in return, which indeed many EU countries already do)
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    TGOHF666 said:

    Here's well known racist Paul McCartney "blaming China"

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1250379409594429445?s=20

    "Wet Bats,
    Wet Bats,
    Wet Bats is where it started from!"
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    isam said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Here's well known racist Paul McCartney "blaming China"

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1250379409594429445?s=20

    "Wet Bats,
    Wet Bats,
    Wet Bats is where it started from!"
    awesome
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270

    Some actual detail on the ventilator issues and designs.

    This is the biggest part of that,

    Mercedes have turned over their entire UK engine base in Brixworth to the production of the CPAP device and are producing up to 1,000 units a day.
    What is also interesting is that the F1 correspondent managed to write a story full of detail. In a simple, understandable manner.
    I'd rather have Benson at the daily briefing than the lobby hacks. They have a much better grasp of detail oriented issues and how to ask the right questions.
  • BantermanBanterman Posts: 287

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270

    Some actual detail on the ventilator issues and designs.

    This is the biggest part of that,

    Mercedes have turned over their entire UK engine base in Brixworth to the production of the CPAP device and are producing up to 1,000 units a day.
    No doubt this great news will lead Sky News, BBC News and Channel 4 News over the rest of the day.

    Oh, I keep missing it.
  • DensparkDenspark Posts: 68

    LOL, the UW horseshit model even crazier than usual for todays predicted numbers...their prediction range is between 170 and 4100 deaths....so utterly broken.

    they're updating again today , so presumably they're busy right now rolling dice or throwing darts to work out the new numbers.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    RobD said:

    The fuss was over 3 products out of over 2,000.....

    Each day we distribute millions of items of PPE to care settings in Scotland, Wales and England. Our committed team have been working incredibly hard to make sure that everyone who has been a regular customer of Gompels can continue to access the stocks that we can buy in these difficult times.

    Stocks of PPE are at a record low in the UK and coronavirus has created massive demand for products that would not normally be widely used in a care setting. This has meant that the usual supply channels are unable to fulfil the requirements. Pandemic flu stocks have been released under the Department of Health & Social Care Covid-19: Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Plan.

    These pandemic English pandemic flu stocks are mandated for supply to CQC registered settings operating in England. Currently there are only 3 products from over 2000 that this relates to. We continue to supply on a daily basis our full range (less these 3 products from Public Health England) to Care providers in Wales and Scotland.


    https://www.gompels.co.uk/latest-news/doing-our-best-to-supply-ppe.html

    So the National is kicking up a fuss because stocks reserved for England aren't being used in Scotland? That seems like a problem for the devolved body in Scotland.
    Why do you think the Times and BBC were kicking up a fuss about it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2020
    Denspark said:

    LOL, the UW horseshit model even crazier than usual for todays predicted numbers...their prediction range is between 170 and 4100 deaths....so utterly broken.

    they're updating again today , so presumably they're busy right now rolling dice or throwing darts to work out the new numbers.
    Well PDC "darts at home" tournament starts Friday, maybe they could just use their scores as predictors.

    one.......hundred......and eightyyyyyyyyyyy.....deaths in Sweden....

    fiffffffffty....seven....deaths in Denmark....

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    The fuss was over 3 products out of over 2,000.....

    Each day we distribute millions of items of PPE to care settings in Scotland, Wales and England. Our committed team have been working incredibly hard to make sure that everyone who has been a regular customer of Gompels can continue to access the stocks that we can buy in these difficult times.

    Stocks of PPE are at a record low in the UK and coronavirus has created massive demand for products that would not normally be widely used in a care setting. This has meant that the usual supply channels are unable to fulfil the requirements. Pandemic flu stocks have been released under the Department of Health & Social Care Covid-19: Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) Plan.

    These pandemic English pandemic flu stocks are mandated for supply to CQC registered settings operating in England. Currently there are only 3 products from over 2000 that this relates to. We continue to supply on a daily basis our full range (less these 3 products from Public Health England) to Care providers in Wales and Scotland.


    https://www.gompels.co.uk/latest-news/doing-our-best-to-supply-ppe.html

    So the National is kicking up a fuss because stocks reserved for England aren't being used in Scotland? That seems like a problem for the devolved body in Scotland.
    Why do you think the Times and BBC were kicking up a fuss about it?
    So much second-hand journalism these days. :D
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited April 2020
    ABZ said:

    Scotland said 84 more people have died there, Wales 60 and Northern Ireland six - a total of 150

    Significant jumps in Scotland and Wales. Perhaps bank holiday effect of reporting.

    Scotland reported very few deaths over the weekend (I think it was 9 on one day and 26 on another) and they'd been averaging 40-50 before that. I think this is a one off correction there. Also, note the 84 will be counted tomorrow in the UK wide figures, so there will be ~110 cases (40 in Scotland; 60 in Wales and 10 in N Ireland) to add to the English total - so about 760 or so in sum for today I think.
    My day is only complete when I have the Yorkshire figures. The last few days have been 49-60-44-65, so that's from 781 deaths in total with 28% of those deaths being reported in the last four days (the national total for the same days is 24%).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,616
    Banterman said:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270

    Some actual detail on the ventilator issues and designs.

    This is the biggest part of that,

    Mercedes have turned over their entire UK engine base in Brixworth to the production of the CPAP device and are producing up to 1,000 units a day.
    No doubt this great news will lead Sky News, BBC News and Channel 4 News over the rest of the day.

    Oh, I keep missing it.
    Forgetting the political side of it.

    This is the kind of dig down approach that generates real information - Who, What, Where, Why & When?

    The contrasting approach is to go with the first thing you've heard - "Something happened".

    The first is what many would think of as journalism. The second resembles a wire service crossed with a rumour mill.

    Read some stories here - https://www.nasaspaceflight.com - then compare with what you have heard via the usual channels, on spaceflight.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    isam said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Here's well known racist Paul McCartney "blaming China"

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1250379409594429445?s=20

    "Wet Bats,
    Wet Bats,
    Wet Bats is where it started from!"
    There will always be those who denigrate his take on the victims of CV-19:

    "The fool - on the ill."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Captain Tom Moore's 100th Birthday Walk for the NHS is now over £7million.....
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    Incidentally, regarding plague literature, which we - mainly me - were discussing yesterday, I have since learned that Yeats, Eliot and Woolf all suffered in the Spanish Flu, Eliot and Woolf had it, and Yeats watched his wife nearly die of it.

    snip

    And Eliot wrote about the flu in the first part of The Waste Land:

    Unreal City,
    Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,
    A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,
    I had not thought death had undone so many.
    Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled,
    And each man fixed his eyes before his feet.

    My favourite being from the Four Quartets (Little Gidding) and the perfect summary of our situation.

    "What we call the beginning is often the end
    And to make an end is to make a beginning.
    The end is where we start from. "

    We have reached an end. What we had is gone but the joy is that something new will arise. We have a new beginning.

    It's this that is giving me hope.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    A useful article on what happens if a presidential candidate/nominee dies or is incapacitated before taking office:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-a-presidential-nominee-can-no-longer-run-for-office/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Captain Tom Moore's 100th Birthday Walk for the NHS is now over £7million.....

    If he's this damned good at raising money, forget the knighthood, perhaps we should make him Chancellor....
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    The National has a circulation of 9k.

    About half that of The Yorkshire Post.

    It’s an insignificant rag propped up by well who knows..
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    eadric said:

    This is genuinely good news. We should quietly sigh with relief.

    Now it's a question of how big and long the plateau is. Italy shows that the death toll can remain stubbornly high.

    But it seems we have avoided the horror-fest of a daily death toll in the 1000s.
    Part of it will depend on how the public react. Hopefully they carry on being sensible and hiding away.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Denspark said:

    LOL, the UW horseshit model even crazier than usual for todays predicted numbers...their prediction range is between 170 and 4100 deaths....so utterly broken.

    they're updating again today , so presumably they're busy right now rolling dice or throwing darts to work out the new numbers.
    mate, I've just had to duck.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ukpaul said:

    eadric said:

    Incidentally, regarding plague literature, which we - mainly me - were discussing yesterday, I have since learned that Yeats, Eliot and Woolf all suffered in the Spanish Flu, Eliot and Woolf had it, and Yeats watched his wife nearly die of it.

    snip

    And Eliot wrote about the flu in the first part of The Waste Land:

    Unreal City,
    Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,
    A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,
    I had not thought death had undone so many.
    Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled,
    And each man fixed his eyes before his feet.

    My favourite being from the Four Quartets (Little Gidding) and the perfect summary of our situation.

    "What we call the beginning is often the end
    And to make an end is to make a beginning.
    The end is where we start from. "

    We have reached an end. What we had is gone but the joy is that something new will arise. We have a new beginning.

    It's this that is giving me hope.
    If you're looking for hope (or joy) you're looking at the wrong poet.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    TGOHF666 said:

    The National has a circulation of 9k.

    About half that of The Yorkshire Post.

    It’s an insignificant rag propped up by well who knows..

    But it was enough for the First Minister to make a statement about the story (though not today, once it had been clarified) and Forty A Day to write not one but two letters to Hancock and phone him up. Not as though he (or she) have anything else to do....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    TGOHF666 said:

    The National has a circulation of 9k.

    About half that of The Yorkshire Post.

    It’s an insignificant rag propped up by well who knows..

    And you're still going on and on and on about it...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    edited April 2020
    deleted
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    The National has a circulation of 9k.

    About half that of The Yorkshire Post.

    It’s an insignificant rag propped up by well who knows..

    But it was enough for the First Minister to make a statement about the story (though not today, once it had been clarified) and Forty A Day to write not one but two letters to Hancock and phone him up. Not as though he (or she) have anything else to do....
    I would be asking the BBC why they show the front page on their paper review given there are dozens of other regional British papers with higher circulations.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    A useful article on what happens if a presidential candidate/nominee dies or is incapacitated before taking office:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-a-presidential-nominee-can-no-longer-run-for-office/

    Thanks. Good read.

    "Brown said a crisis like this would likely push the Democratic National Committee to put the vice presidential nominee at the top of the ticket."

    Harris is 250/1 and Klobucher is 400/1 to be nominee.

    Just saying...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    4 times as many people have donated to Captain Toms appeal than have been diagnosed with Coronavirus in the UK

    The average donation is £20

    Have to say i reckon he is going to raise circa £15m - quite extraordinary.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    Testing and tracing possibly may be more important than lockdown? But yes there are lots of unknowns, and even more unknown by the amateurs who have such certainty that it is all policy related with the govt to blame.

    It'd make some sense. But then look all over Eastern Europe, death rates even smaller than Germany's. Latvia 5 deaths, Lithuania 29, Estonia 35 - and they've all done equal or more testing than Germany per capita, so it's not like they're ignoring the problem.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742

    Harris is 250/1 and Klobucher is 400/1 to be nominee.

    Klobucher surge KLAXON!!!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    edited April 2020

    A useful article on what happens if a presidential candidate/nominee dies or is incapacitated before taking office:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-a-presidential-nominee-can-no-longer-run-for-office/

    Thanks. Good read.

    "Brown said a crisis like this would likely push the Democratic National Committee to put the vice presidential nominee at the top of the ticket."

    Harris is 250/1...
    Tipped at 1000/1.
    Just sayin'...

    (...though I really ought to have put a couple of hundred quid on it.)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Nigelb said:

    A useful article on what happens if a presidential candidate/nominee dies or is incapacitated before taking office:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-a-presidential-nominee-can-no-longer-run-for-office/

    Thanks. Good read.

    "Brown said a crisis like this would likely push the Democratic National Committee to put the vice presidential nominee at the top of the ticket."

    Harris is 250/1...
    Tipped at 1000/1.
    Just sayin'...

    (...though I really ought to have put a couple of hundred quid on it.)
    V good. I got her at 850/1
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    TOPPING said:

    ukpaul said:

    eadric said:

    Incidentally, regarding plague literature, which we - mainly me - were discussing yesterday, I have since learned that Yeats, Eliot and Woolf all suffered in the Spanish Flu, Eliot and Woolf had it, and Yeats watched his wife nearly die of it.

    snip

    And Eliot wrote about the flu in the first part of The Waste Land:

    Unreal City,
    Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,
    A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,
    I had not thought death had undone so many.
    Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled,
    And each man fixed his eyes before his feet.

    My favourite being from the Four Quartets (Little Gidding) and the perfect summary of our situation.

    "What we call the beginning is often the end
    And to make an end is to make a beginning.
    The end is where we start from. "

    We have reached an end. What we had is gone but the joy is that something new will arise. We have a new beginning.

    It's this that is giving me hope.
    If you're looking for hope (or joy) you're looking at the wrong poet.
    I'm a great admirer of Eliot's poetry, there's a lot of beauty and transcendence and that's enough for me!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    A useful article on what happens if a presidential candidate/nominee dies or is incapacitated before taking office:

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-if-a-presidential-nominee-can-no-longer-run-for-office/

    Thanks. Good read.

    "Brown said a crisis like this would likely push the Democratic National Committee to put the vice presidential nominee at the top of the ticket."

    Harris is 250/1 and Klobucher is 400/1 to be nominee.

    Just saying...
    Check the terms of the market though. For instance, Betfair's market rules say: This market will be settled on the candidate voted to be the Democratic Party nominee as a result of the 2020 Democratic National Convention.

    And not anyone substituted in between the convention and the election, so you need to price in the time window to land the bet.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    The National has a circulation of 9k.

    About half that of The Yorkshire Post.

    It’s an insignificant rag propped up by well who knows..

    But it was enough for the First Minister to make a statement about the story (though not today, once it had been clarified) and Forty A Day to write not one but two letters to Hancock and phone him up. Not as though he (or she) have anything else to do....
    I would be asking the BBC why they show the front page on their paper review given there are dozens of other regional British papers with higher circulations.
    The (Dundee) Courier has over four times the circulation and did some proper journalism - like talking to the firm involved, unlike the Nat Onal which confined itself to looking up a web page....but only a couple, or they'd have found the 2,000 products which were for sale in Scotland.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Nigelb said:

    Tipped at 1000/1.
    Just sayin'...

    (...though I really ought to have put a couple of hundred quid on it.)

    She was my fave way back. Lumped on at 20. So if she drifted to 1000 - and is now 250 - but ends up winning my 20 remains a mug bet yet it pays off. I'd be embarrassed to win like that and would keep it quiet.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    edited April 2020
    The word gammon seems to have fallen out of use recently.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    4 times as many people have donated to Captain Toms appeal than have been diagnosed with Coronavirus in the UK

    The average donation is £20

    Have to say i reckon he is going to raise circa £15m - quite extraordinary.

    All the folk behind Sports Relief are looking on going "Fuck me...why didnt we think of just going round our gardens?"
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited April 2020
    The fellow whose graphs I posted, to much consternation, has written an article about the Covid lockdown. Toby Young's involved, so I'm sure it will receive a fair hearing

    "Does peak infection sync with lockdown enforcement?
    The lockdown logic’s basic arithmetic doesn’t add up"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/does-peak-infection-sync-with-lockdown-enforcement/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    Floater said:
    What kind of idiot takes a Mail story at face value?

    Oh..
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited April 2020
    Beeb going big on the telly with the care home testing news.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52289607

    Tearful care home bosses saying they've been let down and old folk are dying because of lack of testing to date. Others saying they've put their infection control procedures in place they would have done against a bad flu season but it hasn't been enough.

    The thing that really got me was one care home manager saying if only he'd been able to get his staff and patients to test negative, they could have skipped the PPE and that would have made care much more personal/comfortable for the old dears.

    I can see the attraction of that but it did worry me that they all seemed to view the testing as foolproof and a silver bullet, with a negative test indicating that all was clear.

    Seems dangerous to me, as false negatives appear to be rather common. If you're testing a care worker because they've got symptoms or they believe they've been exposed to it at home or whatever then wouldn't it be safer for them to be staying at home anyway? The negative test doesn't "prove" they're safe to return. And if you did a mass testing of all your staff regardless of symptoms or possible prior exposure, then even if you did believe all the negative test results were correct, that only shows they were clear today. What about tomorrow, or next week?

    Obviously it would be great if you just so happened to test someone who was asymptomatic but infectious and stopped them bringing the virus in, but it would involve a big a stroke of luck that you tested them after they caught it rather than just before and cleared them, but not so long after that the symptoms had started to show (I think the eggheads reckon some people never know they had it while others have a brief pre-symptomatic stage before the symptoms kick in). And in the meantime while you're waiting for the test result, should these apparently asymptomatic and unexposed people be coming to work?

    A big difference between care homes and hospitals is that we accept that COVID is going to be floating around in hospitals and even with PPE it's inevitable some of the staff are going to catch it too. With care homes the arithmetic of the risk is rather different, you just don't want it getting in at all, if you can avoid it.

    Those care homes that have just locked down a crew of managers, care staff, cooks and cleaners inside have given themselves a fighting chance. Even then, it's quite common for frail residents to have to go to hospital (eg if they've had a fall) and then come back again, and they might bring something in with them. If staff are going in and out every day, and spending time with the kiddywinkles or out shopping, then no matter what you do with the testing I can't see how, with current technology, you can stop it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742
    This thread has been

    republished in The National and is therefore no longer relevant.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    isam said:

    The fellow whose graphs I posted, to much consternation, has written an article about the Covid lockdown. Toby Young's involved, so I'm sure it will receive a fair hearing

    "Does peak infection sync with lockdown enforcement?
    The lockdown logic’s basic arithmetic doesn’t add up"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/does-peak-infection-sync-with-lockdown-enforcement/

    It's possible the lockdown hasn't had any effect on when the peak occurred.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Pro_Rata said:

    Coronavirus makes a 31/12 Brexit timing severely sub-optimal.

    The talk of a second wave in Winter is not just a generalisation, it fits absolutely with the pattern of previous pandemics: the warmth of summer will have a suppressive effect alongside whatever relaxed social distancing we end up with, but momentum will start to build again in early October and, depending on the success of apps, treatments and the rest of it, a second peak, with all that entails, within 4 weeks of Christmas is odds-on.

    So, how does France, in particular, respond to a large increase in the requirement for Border Officers to go-live with disruptive new ways of working that require close quarters supervision in the peak of the second wave. If we're lucky, enforcement is suspended on an emergency basis and trade continues unimpeded. If we're unlucky: and France decides this: we end up with a fully closed trade border in addition to people not passing. A blockade, if you like. Do you feel lucky, Brexiteer punk?

    Let's be helpful. Alistair Meek's one year delay isn't the best, its height of winter again. But July 31st 2021, say. Final, final date. That suits.

    No need to put a date on it. Bit silly to do so, in fact.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    This is so sad

    Pregnant nurse with cornavirus dies but baby is saved
    A pregnant 28-year-old nurse who was diagnosed with Covid-19 has died.

    An emergency caesarean section was performed to deliver the nurse's child, Channel 4 News repored.

    The baby is alive and being cared for, the broadcaster said.

    In an internal email, the Trust’s chief executive described her as a “wonderful young woman who made a huge contribution”.

    He said the survival of her baby daughter was a “beacon of light at this very dark time”.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    As big an idiot as takes a Nat Onal story at face value?
This discussion has been closed.