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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The lockdown continues to paralyse the country, LAB might have a new leader but the party’s battle over anti-semitism goes on
What to make of the latest bout of Labour in-fighting? (Or, as it might just as easily have been described: Part 197 of the The People’s Front for Judaea vs The Popular Front of Judaea.)
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Dunno. It is hard to follow -- see header point 9. I expect based on previous threads this will also be weaponised by Labour's opponents. Cui bono? The Tories, I expect.0
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So Cui Bono? And how does Sir Keir use this to his advantage?
Factional twats gonna factional twat.
Ignore it and say a bit more about the fact that thousands of people are dead and the entire nation imprisoned in their own homes due to the government's incompetence.1 -
OT I'm now being shown adverts for plants, owing no doubt to pb's gardening features.
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Another third.0
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I don’t have much time for the Labour Party but think the new leader can be given a bit of time to sort out his party’s stance going forward. I don’t care enough to be picking over the detail in the somewhat obsessive tone of the lead.
The big picture is that more infighting within Labour won’t do them any favours, although may hardly be noticed in the current news environment. It does however offer Starmer the choice of going for the Kinnock approach of taking on and getting rid of the hard left, but I suspect he won’t take it. End of story, really.1 -
Perhaps Starmer should take a lead from Stalin Corbyn Jim Hacker Boris and ban all MPs from speaking to the media without prior approval from Number 10.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/09/system-boris-johnson-built-unravelling-absence/
In a sign of Downing Street's continued desire to assert authority in Mr Johnson's absence, The Telegraph has learned that MPs have been instructed not to give TV or radio interviews without prior approval. According to one MP, "the message went out that if you didn't tell Number 10 then they would find out. It all fits a pattern – it's control, control, control".0 -
Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.0
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Give it a couple of hours before people wake up and fill this thread with tweets and quotes from Guido.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
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He does have a small window of opportunity here, to sort out the factionalism in relative peace and quiet, should he wish to do so.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
On the other hand, Guido’s managed to get a copy of the full, unredacted, 850 page report. Even he isn’t publishing it though, which suggests it’s very explosive indeed.0 -
Is that what it suggests? Not that at 850 pages he's not finished reading it, or is hoping to dole it out in small portions like the Telegraph did with the expenses scandal? Not that he is waiting for instructions from CCHQ, or even that it is not explosive at all, just dull?Sandpit said:
He does have a small window of opportunity here, to sort out the factionalism in relative peace and quiet, should he wish to do so.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
On the other hand, Guido’s managed to get a copy of the full, unredacted, 850 page report. Even he isn’t publishing it though, which suggests it’s very explosive indeed.0 -
Difficult to say, without having read it myself!DecrepiterJohnL said:
Is that what it suggests? Not that at 850 pages he's not finished reading it, or is hoping to dole it out in small portions like the Telegraph did with the expenses scandal? Not that he is waiting for instructions from CCHQ, or even that it is not explosive at all, just dull?Sandpit said:
He does have a small window of opportunity here, to sort out the factionalism in relative peace and quiet, should he wish to do so.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
On the other hand, Guido’s managed to get a copy of the full, unredacted, 850 page report. Even he isn’t publishing it though, which suggests it’s very explosive indeed.
My guess would be that most of it is the Corbynites who wrote the report ranting about the moderates who didn't like them taking over the party.
He (Guido) probably doesn't see the point in helping out said Corbynites, and he certainly doesn't want to prejudice the EHCR investigation.
A lot of the names mentioned are also going to be members of staff - as opposed to politicians or elected officers - which presents privacy issues.
He quite likes everyone knowing he has a full copy though, just in case people start thinking they can put out a carefully redacted version to help their own cause.1 -
Or suggesting that he gets more page views by spreading it out over a week...Sandpit said:
He does have a small window of opportunity here, to sort out the factionalism in relative peace and quiet, should he wish to do so.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
On the other hand, Guido’s managed to get a copy of the full, unredacted, 850 page report. Even he isn’t publishing it though, which suggests it’s very explosive indeed.0 -
Given it leaked in full onto the internet back on Sunday I'd imagine anyone who wanted it 'managed' to obtain it by now.0
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People in Labour HQ compiled and distributed a report containing the personal details of Jews and others who had submitted complaints about antisemitism. That there might be a problem doing this was not even considered. That is institutional antisemitism encapsulated. It's classic.
The report itself was not produced with the knowledge of the NEC or the current party leadership. The legal advice has not been shared. At a minimum what this demonstrates is the utter dysfunctionality of the party machine. All this presents Starmer with a major opportunity at a time wnen no-one outside the party is watching.2 -
Indeed.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
But I think if Keir Starmer did want to play it to his advantage then purging Momentum and anti-semitism would be a good look.
Anyone in Labour who blocked Corbyn coming to power will be an utter hero to the electorate.
Not that it matters anyway. Our real hero, Boris, will romp to victory next time.0 -
Which means that basically Keir Starmer is John Smith.1
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Your.Mysticrose said:
Indeed.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
But I think if Keir Starmer did want to play it to his advantage then purging Momentum and anti-semitism would be a good look.
Anyone in Labour who blocked Corbyn coming to power will be an utter hero to the electorate.
Not that it matters anyway. Our real hero, Boris, will romp to victory next time.0 -
... but, but, but Mysticrose is 'left of centre' !!!???!!!Nigelb said:
Your.Mysticrose said:
Indeed.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
But I think if Keir Starmer did want to play it to his advantage then purging Momentum and anti-semitism would be a good look.
Anyone in Labour who blocked Corbyn coming to power will be an utter hero to the electorate.
Not that it matters anyway. Our real hero, Boris, will romp to victory next time.0 -
No, it’s linked to the thread header. Taking an interest in the activities of Corbynite Labour staffers has led Google to think you want to know more about plant life.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT I'm now being shown adverts for plants, owing no doubt to pb's gardening features.
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Could be worse. I am getting adverts from Skullshavers!ydoethur said:
No, it’s linked to the thread header. Taking an interest in the activities of Corbynite Labour staffers has led Google to think you want to know more about plant life.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT I'm now being shown adverts for plants, owing no doubt to pb's gardening features.
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@Charles
My understanding of Philip’s proposal to Elizabeth (and it should be noted I am not an expert on this) is that it was extremely half-hearted and done more as a possible way of trying to keep England within Catholicism than anything else. Even at the time he made his offer he was negotiating to marry a French princess which doesn’t suggest enthusiasm.
Thank you for the information about your 9x great grandfather, who was clearly not a wide man.0 -
Today will be an awful day for the Government and our country. The ONS will be issuing data showing deaths involving Covid 19 from outside of hospitals. This will include care homes. The numbers date back from March 27th so expect them to be high. Even if it's only 50 a day that will be well over another 1000.
Professor Vallance alluded to this yesterday when he said this week would be very difficult.1 -
Dear me. Do you have to comb through them to get to the header?Foxy said:
Could be worse. I am getting adverts from Skullshavers!ydoethur said:
No, it’s linked to the thread header. Taking an interest in the activities of Corbynite Labour staffers has led Google to think you want to know more about plant life.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT I'm now being shown adverts for plants, owing no doubt to pb's gardening features.
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How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.0 -
Could someone summarise the report?
I gather that the moderates are accused of undermining the Corbynites, at a time that the Corbynites were trying to drive out the moderates. Sounds like the central office was a nest of vipers.
Is this an accurate precis?
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Russell Lloyd Moyle is a knob of the highest order and has surpassed himself by publishing the report and all the names.SouthamObserver said:People in Labour HQ compiled and distributed a report containing the personal details of Jews and others who had submitted complaints about antisemitism. That there might be a problem doing this was not even considered. That is institutional antisemitism encapsulated. It's classic.
The report itself was not produced with the knowledge of the NEC or the current party leadership. The legal advice has not been shared. At a minimum what this demonstrates is the utter dysfunctionality of the party machine. All this presents Starmer with a major opportunity at a time wnen no-one outside the party is watching.1 -
People were wondering how Bernie Bros would take the Bernie endorsement of Biden and Biden saying he's going to formulate policy with Bernie and fold his platform into his.
https://twitter.com/HTTP_Lovecraft/status/1249766257244745736?s=19
Just incase you are wondering that's not a positive statement about developments.1 -
Is there any chance this could lead to a sentence of more than twelve months so he could be removed from Parliament?timmo said:
Russell Lloyd Moyle is a knob of the highest order and has surpassed himself by publishing the report and all the names.SouthamObserver said:People in Labour HQ compiled and distributed a report containing the personal details of Jews and others who had submitted complaints about antisemitism. That there might be a problem doing this was not even considered. That is institutional antisemitism encapsulated. It's classic.
The report itself was not produced with the knowledge of the NEC or the current party leadership. The legal advice has not been shared. At a minimum what this demonstrates is the utter dysfunctionality of the party machine. All this presents Starmer with a major opportunity at a time wnen no-one outside the party is watching.
Edit - although I take it this means he is over his CV19 infection?1 -
As is Borislogical_song said:
... but, but, but Mysticrose is 'left of centre' !!!???!!!Nigelb said:
Your.Mysticrose said:
Indeed.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
But I think if Keir Starmer did want to play it to his advantage then purging Momentum and anti-semitism would be a good look.
Anyone in Labour who blocked Corbyn coming to power will be an utter hero to the electorate.
Not that it matters anyway. Our real hero, Boris, will romp to victory next time.1 -
Its the bald truth.ydoethur said:
Dear me. Do you have to comb through them to get to the header?Foxy said:
Could be worse. I am getting adverts from Skullshavers!ydoethur said:
No, it’s linked to the thread header. Taking an interest in the activities of Corbynite Labour staffers has led Google to think you want to know more about plant life.DecrepiterJohnL said:OT I'm now being shown adverts for plants, owing no doubt to pb's gardening features.
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Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.0 -
The same victims of anti-semitism that our Kier fans are criticising this report for exposing, had the details of their cases shredded, and therefore their distress extended, by the New Labour faction in this Labour conflict. They were used callously, as pawns. Our Kier fans haven't mentioned this inconvenient fact. It seems they only want to stick up for the victims of anti-semitism when it helps their wing of the party. When sticking up for them would mean condemning your own wing of the party, it comes a poor second.0
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Is it really any different from the ERG acting as a party within a party to bring down the PM and install one of their own?felix said:How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that the ERG succeeded.0 -
I am looking at it now; it’s very easy to find.Foxy said:Could someone summarise the report?
I gather that the moderates are accused of undermining the Corbynites, at a time that the Corbynites were trying to drive out the moderates.
Sounds like the central office was a nest of vipers.
Is this an accurate precis?
From the summary of the report at the beginning, it appears reasonably sensible and balanced in its assessment and its own conclusions.
The problem, or issue, is that the body of the report sets out verbatim and at length numerous online conversations between various key Labour Party figures - staffers rather than politicians - which contain a litany of bad language, appalling comments,sexism, racism, extremely personal comments about colleagues, Hitler analogies, death wishes, and all...you name it, and reveal an utterly appalling attitude and toxic atmosphere at Labour HQ. The report makes the point repeatedly that ordinary members have been expelled from Labour for much less.
It also opens a window on to the bitter hatred and factionalism within the party. Which is far worse than anyone who knows the party from the outside could have imagined.2 -
Hey, remeber when Wisconsin held an election during a god damn pandemic because the GOP sued to make it happen so they could win a Wisconsin Supreme Court seat?
Do you think it well for them? No, no it did not
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/13/us/elections/live-analysis-wisconsin.html
Karofsky has smashed the GOP Kelly by 6 percentage points.
Ooft.2 -
They have literally had their private details posted all over the internet because the people who wrote and then leaked the report did not think it was important to protect their identities.Luckyguy1983 said:The same victims of anti-semitism that our Kier fans are criticising this report for exposing, had the details of their cases shredded, and therefore their distress extended, by the New Labour faction in this Labour conflict. They were used callously, as pawns. Our Kier fans haven't mentioned this inconvenient fact. It seems they only want to stick up for the victims of anti-semitism when it helps their wing of the party. When sticking up for them would mean condemning your own wing of the party, it comes a poor second.
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No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.1 -
Possibly, but the tone seems a bit harsh.Foxy said:Could someone summarise the report?
I gather that the moderates are accused of undermining the Corbynites, at a time that the Corbynites were trying to drive out the moderates. Sounds like the central office was a nest of vipers.
Is this an accurate precis?
To nests of vipers, that is.1 -
Tough luck for all of you on the right.Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.
He has won me over. For now.
As for morality - Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer too with a giant sense of entitlement. And the most successful Labour leader ever.
Boris will sweep this country before him doing what he did when he was Mayor of London: winning a Labour electorate.
Boris is the new Blair. Politically and socially.0 -
I think Cyclefree has unfortunately rather missed the point on this one.
The report certainly doesn't suggest that Starmer's apology was unnecessary - if anything it underlines the need for it, since it is claiming that Labour party officials did not investigate these claims (albeit in order to damage the leader).
As to who benefits: the Tories, obviously, although they will perhaps not wish to focus on it too much at the present time.
But I suspect one reason it was released is because Starmer is choosing his team. Possibly he was considering some of the individuals mentioned in the report.
Trust in the Labour party is going to be in even shorter supply.0 -
Isn’t that the first rule of regicide? Make sure you succeed.Foxy said:
Is it really any different from the ERG acting as a party within a party to bring down the PM and install one of their own?felix said:How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that the ERG succeeded.2 -
Yes, which is bad, and you and others have made that point.SouthamObserver said:
They have literally had their private details posted all over the internet because the people who wrote and then leaked the report did not think it was important to protect their identities.Luckyguy1983 said:The same victims of anti-semitism that our Kier fans are criticising this report for exposing, had the details of their cases shredded, and therefore their distress extended, by the New Labour faction in this Labour conflict. They were used callously, as pawns. Our Kier fans haven't mentioned this inconvenient fact. It seems they only want to stick up for the victims of anti-semitism when it helps their wing of the party. When sticking up for them would mean condemning your own wing of the party, it comes a poor second.
Will you also roundly condemn the fact that key figures within the Labour party deliberately extended the distress of the victims of anti-semitism by losing their complaints down the back of the sofa, falsely claiming the perpetrators were not Labour members, etc., in order to make Jeremy Corbyn's team 'look bad'. Displaying a breathtakingly callous disregard for their feelings and using them as pawns in a factional war?0 -
Factional twats gonna factional twat.edmundintokyo said:So Cui Bono? And how does Sir Keir use this to his advantage?
Ignore it and say a bit more about the fact that thousands of people are dead and the entire nation imprisoned in their own homes due to the government's incompetence.
Just out of interest, is it the fact that we are in “lockdown” that is due to the Govt’s incompetence or is that just a byproduct? Is there any country currently under lockdown conditions that you don’t believe to be led by an incompetent Govt? Given that you clearly don’t believe lockdown to be a necessary policy measure?
I’m not quite sure where you got the idea that we are imprisoned within our own homes from though? Perhaps you are confusing us with another country?
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Like he said, the new Tony Blair.Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.0 -
I think that the spread to care home fatalities has mostly been in the last week or two, but big numbers I expect..timmo said:Today will be an awful day for the Government and our country. The ONS will be issuing data showing deaths involving Covid 19 from outside of hospitals. This will include care homes. The numbers date back from March 27th so expect them to be high. Even if it's only 50 a day that will be well over another 1000.
Professor Vallance alluded to this yesterday when he said this week would be very difficult.0 -
I think it’s true that average life expectancy of someone going into a care home is in the region of nine months?Foxy said:
I think that the spread to care home fatalities has mostly been in the last week or two, but big numbers I expect..timmo said:Today will be an awful day for the Government and our country. The ONS will be issuing data showing deaths involving Covid 19 from outside of hospitals. This will include care homes. The numbers date back from March 27th so expect them to be high. Even if it's only 50 a day that will be well over another 1000.
Professor Vallance alluded to this yesterday when he said this week would be very difficult.0 -
The trouble is, they didn't. The man they installed as king has turned out not to believe in any of their fundamentals.Sandpit said:
Isn’t that the first rule of regicide? Make sure you succeed.Foxy said:
Is it really any different from the ERG acting as a party within a party to bring down the PM and install one of their own?felix said:How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that the ERG succeeded.
It's going to be most amusing to watch this. The slow expurgation of the Right. In this regard Boris will be aided by Cummings who loathes the ERG.
If we had stopped to consider this, it would have been obvious. The man who won Labour London for the tories and hosted HIGNFY was never going to be a bible-basher of the far right. He's a people's man. Like Blair, a chameleon without ideology. Except that he passionately believes in society and, now, the NHS. Just like Tony.
It's a marvel to behold. We have our Tony Blair back in No.10 Downing Street. A man of immense charisma who will continue to sweep the country to victory in successive elections by paying absolutely no attention to the loons on the right-wing.
It's glorious. For the ERG a case of, 'be careful what you wish for.'
I love you Boris. Can I have your babies too please?
(The last sentence is a joke. The rest deadly serious.)0 -
Treason never prospers, for when it does, no one dares call it so.Sandpit said:
Isn’t that the first rule of regicide? Make sure you succeed.Foxy said:
Is it really any different from the ERG acting as a party within a party to bring down the PM and install one of their own?felix said:How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that the ERG succeeded.3 -
six, I think, but a broad range from weeks to years.IanB2 said:
I think it’s true that average life expectancy of someone going into a care home is in the region of nine months?Foxy said:
I think that the spread to care home fatalities has mostly been in the last week or two, but big numbers I expect..timmo said:Today will be an awful day for the Government and our country. The ONS will be issuing data showing deaths involving Covid 19 from outside of hospitals. This will include care homes. The numbers date back from March 27th so expect them to be high. Even if it's only 50 a day that will be well over another 1000.
Professor Vallance alluded to this yesterday when he said this week would be very difficult.0 -
@Luckyguy1983 - I will condemn anyone who failed to act on anti-Semitism or any other kind of racism for whatever reason. I don’t think they should be anywhere near the Labour party. What’s absolutely clear is that the entire Labour machine is entirely dysfunctional and needs to be torn down before being rebuilt. This is a big opportunity for the new leadership. I hope everyone supports them as they do it.1
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Mrs T's actual quote -Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society.
"But [the safety net] went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate."1 -
The first two, yes, nobody would dispute those.Mysticrose said:Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer
The last one is new to me. Do you have any evidence for it?0 -
An honourable stance.SouthamObserver said:@Luckyguy1983 - I will condemn anyone who failed to act on anti-Semitism or any other kind of racism for whatever reason. I don’t think they should be anywhere near the Labour party. What’s absolutely clear is that the entire Labour machine is entirely dysfunctional and needs to be torn down before being rebuilt. This is a big opportunity for the new leadership. I hope everyone supports them as they do it.
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When France initially updated in the same way it put over 2000 on their mortality numbersFoxy said:
I think that the spread to care home fatalities has mostly been in the last week or two, but big numbers I expect..timmo said:Today will be an awful day for the Government and our country. The ONS will be issuing data showing deaths involving Covid 19 from outside of hospitals. This will include care homes. The numbers date back from March 27th so expect them to be high. Even if it's only 50 a day that will be well over another 1000.
Professor Vallance alluded to this yesterday when he said this week would be very difficult.0 -
Probably less at the momentIanB2 said:
I think it’s true that average life expectancy of someone going into a care home is in the region of nine months?Foxy said:
I think that the spread to care home fatalities has mostly been in the last week or two, but big numbers I expect..timmo said:Today will be an awful day for the Government and our country. The ONS will be issuing data showing deaths involving Covid 19 from outside of hospitals. This will include care homes. The numbers date back from March 27th so expect them to be high. Even if it's only 50 a day that will be well over another 1000.
Professor Vallance alluded to this yesterday when he said this week would be very difficult.0 -
On topic, I am reminded of the following:
"Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."4 -
SheLuckyguy1983 said:
Like he said, the new Tony Blair.Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.
But yes. Just like Tony. They're very similar people and both able to cater for soft right and soft left voters.
I am, genuinely, more optimistic for the future of this country than I have been for ages and ages. Once this virus is sorted we've a PM who believes in most of the values of society that I do. And he's a libertarian. Boris has a mantra that if it doesn't harm anyone you should be able to live how you want. I think we'll see some wonderful social reforms which will have the right wing spitting venom.
The only question now is how many General Elections Boris will win on the trot. 3 or 4?
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There is enough evidence in the report for a stack of discipline cases and dismissals, I'd say.SouthamObserver said:@Luckyguy1983 - I will condemn anyone who failed to act on anti-Semitism or any other kind of racism for whatever reason. I don’t think they should be anywhere near the Labour party. What’s absolutely clear is that the entire Labour machine is entirely dysfunctional and needs to be torn down before being rebuilt. This is a big opportunity for the new leadership. I hope everyone supports them as they do it.
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Well I was meaning his affair with Wendi Deng. I think Boris probably, ahem, had more of a track record of affairs.ydoethur said:
The first two, yes, nobody would dispute those.Mysticrose said:Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer
The last one is new to me. Do you have any evidence for it?
That Thatcher quote on 'no such thing as society' is even worse in full. She was a person of her time: bitterly opposed to the unionisation of this country and hell bent on privatisation. She passionately believed that industry should be the arbiter, including on climate change. Under her selfishness didn't just flourish, it was encouraged. She didn't extend her economic liberalism into ethics and morals. She was a ghastly throwback to the 1950's and when Tony won in 1992 it was like a dam bursting on the pent up angst of several generations.
In this she was utterly and profoundly mistaken and a million miles from Boris.
I told ya'. We have Tony Blair back in Downing Street. A marvel to behold.1 -
By the way, on the Europe question (what's that, I hear you cry) I don't think the EU has exactly covered itself in glory through this crisis.0
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Hate to break this to you but Tony didnt win in 92....Mysticrose said:
Well I was meaning his affair with Wendi Deng. I think Boris probably, ahem, had more of a track record of affairs.ydoethur said:
The first two, yes, nobody would dispute those.Mysticrose said:Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer
The last one is new to me. Do you have any evidence for it?
That Thatcher quote on 'no such thing as society' is even worse in full. She was a person of her time: bitterly opposed to the unionisation of this country and hell bent on privatisation. She passionately believed that industry should be the arbiter, including on climate change. Under her selfishness didn't just flourish, it was encouraged. She didn't extend her economic liberalism into ethics and morals. She was a ghastly throwback to the 1950's and when Tony won in 1992 it was like a dam bursting on the pent up angst of several generations.
In this she was utterly and profoundly mistaken and a million miles from Boris.
I told ya'. We have Tony Blair back in Downing Street. A marvel to behold.1 -
That may well be the case. I have not read it. But a report that contains the full details of all those who submitted complaints raises a lot of alarm bells and will need to be looked at very carefully before anyone relies on it. I do think that legally it will be very difficult to base any disciplinary actions solely on leaked excerpts from private conversations. There will need to be a lot more than that. As I have not read the report I don’t know if there is.IanB2 said:
There is enough evidence in the report for a stack of discipline cases and dismissals, I'd say.SouthamObserver said:@Luckyguy1983 - I will condemn anyone who failed to act on anti-Semitism or any other kind of racism for whatever reason. I don’t think they should be anywhere near the Labour party. What’s absolutely clear is that the entire Labour machine is entirely dysfunctional and needs to be torn down before being rebuilt. This is a big opportunity for the new leadership. I hope everyone supports them as they do it.
0 -
Got ahead of myselftimmo said:
Hate to break this to you but Tony didnt win in 92....Mysticrose said:
Well I was meaning his affair with Wendi Deng. I think Boris probably, ahem, had more of a track record of affairs.ydoethur said:
The first two, yes, nobody would dispute those.Mysticrose said:Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer
The last one is new to me. Do you have any evidence for it?
That Thatcher quote on 'no such thing as society' is even worse in full. She was a person of her time: bitterly opposed to the unionisation of this country and hell bent on privatisation. She passionately believed that industry should be the arbiter, including on climate change. Under her selfishness didn't just flourish, it was encouraged. She didn't extend her economic liberalism into ethics and morals. She was a ghastly throwback to the 1950's and when Tony won in 1992 it was like a dam bursting on the pent up angst of several generations.
In this she was utterly and profoundly mistaken and a million miles from Boris.
I told ya'. We have Tony Blair back in Downing Street. A marvel to behold.
0 -
Right, to writing.
Although there's a small element of playfulness about my suggestion that Boris is the new Tony Blair, the greater part is serious. Boris is no right-wing ideologue. He's savaged Thatcher's appalling mantra about society and he has now made a passionate championing of the NHS after a near-death experience.
He won Labour London by reaching out across the centre into the soft left. And that is precisely what he is now doing in this nation.
He's my hero.0 -
Which Mysticrose. Isn't there more han one?logical_song said:
... but, but, but Mysticrose is 'left of centre' !!!???!!!Nigelb said:
Your.Mysticrose said:
Indeed.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
But I think if Keir Starmer did want to play it to his advantage then purging Momentum and anti-semitism would be a good look.
Anyone in Labour who blocked Corbyn coming to power will be an utter hero to the electorate.
Not that it matters anyway. Our real hero, Boris, will romp to victory next time.0 -
Never, hon.squareroot2 said:
Which Mysticrose. Isn't there more han one?logical_song said:
... but, but, but Mysticrose is 'left of centre' !!!???!!!Nigelb said:
Your.Mysticrose said:
Indeed.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
But I think if Keir Starmer did want to play it to his advantage then purging Momentum and anti-semitism would be a good look.
Anyone in Labour who blocked Corbyn coming to power will be an utter hero to the electorate.
Not that it matters anyway. Our real hero, Boris, will romp to victory next time.
Unless you buy into the conspiracy that I'm Sean. And so's my wife.0 -
Do you mean his alleged affair with Wendi Deng? The one that came from a story by Robert Peston?Mysticrose said:
Well I was meaning his affair with Wendi Deng. I think Boris probably, ahem, had more of a track record of affairs.ydoethur said:
The first two, yes, nobody would dispute those.Mysticrose said:Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer
The last one is new to me. Do you have any evidence for it?
If so, you’re talking havers.0 -
The government needs to get a grip on their procurement. Lack of PPE is an easy story for people to understand and the govt seem to be messing it up.
There's a Brexit angle, there's an incompetence angle and thanks to Matt Hancock there's a 'they attacked the nurses!' angle.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/uk-missed-three-chances-to-join-eu-scheme-to-bulk-buy-ppe0 -
Henry Kissinger, no?Socky said:On topic, I am reminded of the following:
"Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."0 -
You were better at gloom and doomMysticrose said:
Tough luck for all of you on the right.Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.
He has won me over. For now.
As for morality - Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer too with a giant sense of entitlement. And the most successful Labour leader ever.
Boris will sweep this country before him doing what he did when he was Mayor of London: winning a Labour electorate.
Boris is the new Blair. Politically and socially.2 -
You really are having a laugh or as totally barking as your posts.Mysticrose said:
SheLuckyguy1983 said:
Like he said, the new Tony Blair.Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.
But yes. Just like Tony. They're very similar people and both able to cater for soft right and soft left voters.
I am, genuinely, more optimistic for the future of this country than I have been for ages and ages. Once this virus is sorted we've a PM who believes in most of the values of society that I do. And he's a libertarian. Boris has a mantra that if it doesn't harm anyone you should be able to live how you want. I think we'll see some wonderful social reforms which will have the right wing spitting venom.
The only question now is how many General Elections Boris will win on the trot. 3 or 4?0 -
Considering the pandemic and voter suppression that is a very impressive result.Alistair said:Hey, remeber when Wisconsin held an election during a god damn pandemic because the GOP sued to make it happen so they could win a Wisconsin Supreme Court seat?
Do you think it well for them? No, no it did not
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/13/us/elections/live-analysis-wisconsin.html
Karofsky has smashed the GOP Kelly by 6 percentage points.
Ooft.
Anyone doubting the motivation of the Never Trumpers needs to think again.0 -
He is worse than Blair for sureLuckyguy1983 said:
Like he said, the new Tony Blair.Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.0 -
1
-
"a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement"Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.
How has that shown itself since he has been elected PM with a majority of 80?2 -
The intertubes are not clear on this.Peter_the_Punter said:
Henry Kissinger, no?Socky said:On topic, I am reminded of the following:
"Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."0 -
Your prose differs...Mysticrose said:
Never, hon.squareroot2 said:
Which Mysticrose. Isn't there more han one?logical_song said:
... but, but, but Mysticrose is 'left of centre' !!!???!!!Nigelb said:
Your.Mysticrose said:
Indeed.tlg86 said:Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.
But I think if Keir Starmer did want to play it to his advantage then purging Momentum and anti-semitism would be a good look.
Anyone in Labour who blocked Corbyn coming to power will be an utter hero to the electorate.
Not that it matters anyway. Our real hero, Boris, will romp to victory next time.
Unless you buy into the conspiracy that I'm Sean. And so's my wife.0 -
I think , if nothing else the election results indicate the key difference in the eyes of those who matter.Foxy said:
Is it really any different from the ERG acting as a party within a party to bring down the PM and install one of their own?felix said:How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that the ERG succeeded.0 -
Dying in a ditch (or not) over the extension.MarqueeMark said:
"a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement"Foxy said:
No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.Mysticrose said:Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.
Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.
How has that shown itself since he has been elected PM with a majority of 80?
Freeloading Christmas holiday in Mustique
Not obeying his own social distancing rules.
Moving his pregnant mistress into Downing St.
The Leopard hasn't changed his spots.
1 -
Someone has been reading Hy...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/boris-broth-could-soup-speed-prime-ministers-recovery-coronavirus/
1 -
Some Bernie Sanders supporters need to stop the martyrdom and moralizing. Are they really trying to say they’d rather 4 more years of Trump than Biden .
Any left leaning voter in the USA who helps to enable 4 more years of the orange lunatic should be utterly shamed and is beneath contempt .0 -
I think the Guarauniad has a AI program that finds a Brexit angle to any story.rkrkrk said:[Lack of PPE] There's a Brexit angle.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/uk-missed-three-chances-to-join-eu-scheme-to-bulk-buy-ppe
1 -
Just out of interest, is it the fact that we are in “lockdown” that is due to the Govt’s incompetence or is that just a byproduct? Is there any country currently under lockdown conditions that you don’t believe to be led by an incompetent Govt? Given that you clearly don’t believe lockdown to be a necessary policy measure?alex_ said:
Factional twats gonna factional twat.edmundintokyo said:So Cui Bono? And how does Sir Keir use this to his advantage?
Ignore it and say a bit more about the fact that thousands of people are dead and the entire nation imprisoned in their own homes due to the government's incompetence.
I’m not quite sure where you got the idea that we are imprisoned within our own homes from though? Perhaps you are confusing us with another country?
Edmund is only interested in extolling the virtues of a Labour government - everything else is collatoral damage.1 -
This result has genuinely made my day. Perhaps Coronavirus will enable America to rid itself of the cancer of the GOP.Foxy said:
Considering the pandemic and voter suppression that is a very impressive result.Alistair said:Hey, remeber when Wisconsin held an election during a god damn pandemic because the GOP sued to make it happen so they could win a Wisconsin Supreme Court seat?
Do you think it well for them? No, no it did not
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/13/us/elections/live-analysis-wisconsin.html
Karofsky has smashed the GOP Kelly by 6 percentage points.
Ooft.
Anyone doubting the motivation of the Never Trumpers needs to think again.2 -
In regards to the header, leaving aside the office politics/gossip angle (which I admit is the fun part), what practically can Sir K do about this mess?
My understanding is that a Labour leader does not have the powers that a Conservative leader has to simply re-design the party machine.
Perhaps those with more knowledge could fill in some details?0 -
As good Conservatives have always done. The party has rarely descended into ideological bickering without doing badly electorally. Factions do most damage when there are wafer thin majorities.Mysticrose said:Right, to writing.
Although there's a small element of playfulness about my suggestion that Boris is the new Tony Blair, the greater part is serious. Boris is no right-wing ideologue. He's savaged Thatcher's appalling mantra about society and he has now made a passionate championing of the NHS after a near-death experience.
He won Labour London by reaching out across the centre into the soft left. And that is precisely what he is now doing in this nation.
He's my hero.0 -
I suspect the difference is that the old duffers of the ERG said their bad stuff in the bar whereas the staffers of Labour HQ were foolish enough to write it all down/felix said:
I think , if nothing else the election results indicate the key difference in the eyes of those who matter.Foxy said:
Is it really any different from the ERG acting as a party within a party to bring down the PM and install one of their own?felix said:How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that the ERG succeeded.1 -
My perspective as a Labour member of 24 years 9 months (stint 1) and 5 days (stint 2):
Keir should expel the MPs who signed the deathwish demand. Publish the report in full would open the Labour Party to be sued to death for libel and egregious data protection breeches. A report which is clearly factional, clearly pulled together as an exoneration of the Jeremy by his faction at the expense of the party. Calling for such a thing brings the party into disrepute.
Doing so would create a mass walk-out. This is a Good Thing. The lunatics can go and join Galloway's Workers Party or form their own various "Unity" trot parties where everyone can ignore them. Better to get on with it and remove the cult now before it can do any more damage - indeed swift and decisive action would firmly cement Starmer's position and standing amongst the key demographic - former Labour voters. Follow it with a "the party lost your trust. We are sorry. We have acted" broadcast would be hugely powerful.
We are likely years away from an election where the government has a substantial majority. Cutting this group of MPs makes no difference to the parliamentary arithmetic, and I'd love to see Lloyd-Mole vote with the Tories in a strop having been expelled from Labour.
Get it done Keir. Get 'Em Out By Friday.2 -
The ERG can still be bought off with a deadline to Europe - if you want any trade arrangements formalised, you have until 31st December. Do your worst, "hard Brexit". During the virus, the EU has shown its true colours: back-stabbing, glove-grabbing, ventilator-snaffling competitors of ours. Acts of kindness were shown by individual countries, not by the institutions of the EU. The idea of any continuing role for them beyond the end of the year? Forget it.Mysticrose said:
The trouble is, they didn't. The man they installed as king has turned out not to believe in any of their fundamentals.Sandpit said:
Isn’t that the first rule of regicide? Make sure you succeed.Foxy said:
Is it really any different from the ERG acting as a party within a party to bring down the PM and install one of their own?felix said:How many times before have we been here with the factionalism? Not fit for purpose - plain and simple.
A more complete sense of its irrelevance could not be more aptly demonstrated. A chance for Starmer to act? One would hope so bu don't hold your breath - he stayed quiet throughout the worst years of the AS scandal whilst a loyal member of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that the ERG succeeded.
It's going to be most amusing to watch this. The slow expurgation of the Right. In this regard Boris will be aided by Cummings who loathes the ERG.
If we had stopped to consider this, it would have been obvious. The man who won Labour London for the tories and hosted HIGNFY was never going to be a bible-basher of the far right. He's a people's man. Like Blair, a chameleon without ideology. Except that he passionately believes in society and, now, the NHS. Just like Tony.
It's a marvel to behold. We have our Tony Blair back in No.10 Downing Street. A man of immense charisma who will continue to sweep the country to victory in successive elections by paying absolutely no attention to the loons on the right-wing.
It's glorious. For the ERG a case of, 'be careful what you wish for.'
I love you Boris. Can I have your babies too please?
(The last sentence is a joke. The rest deadly serious.)
He can also get his MPs on board with a moderate relaxtion of planning laws. Get building up and running with the ability for anybody to get planning permission for up to say three new houses, no questions asked. But you'll have to pay Capital Gains on the uplift in value - no exemptions, no offsets of previous losses.2 -
I find it's always worth remembering that, for a period of several months, the "hero" of those opposing Corbyn and Corbynism within the Labour party, was Tom Watson: a man who weaponised utterly baseless claims of paedophilia for political reasons, and abused his position to lean on the police to harass innocent men.
It's also clear that, even if all (or almost all) of the anti-Semitism was coming from one wing of the party, there were other issues (the Bex Bailey affair in particular) that seemed to imply a rather more widespread problem.
Whatever "cultural" issues the Labour party has that preclude its institutional moral compass from operating effectively, I'd be surprised if they were fixable simply by "kicking out all the far left entryists".2 -
https://twitter.com/NickBryantNY/status/1249876226581434368Foxy said:CNN captions team having fun...
0 -
Good morning all. Beautiful blue sky over Yorkshire, but cold.
I see that the Telegraph has a headline about 'Boris Broth'. Did a well known PBer write the article?1 -
Good morning, everyone.
The state of what happened in Wisconsin with the voting situation was wretched. Good result despite that (or because of that?), it sounds like.0 -
So catching coronavirus transforms sociopathic rightwing populists into compassionate centre-left saints?
That is good news. Let's hope Trump and Bolsonaro get it too.0 -
Confidence in media slumps:
https://twitter.com/jamesjohnson252/status/12499559742716436480 -
Lol so your answer to the vile abuse thrown at Diane Abbott is to chuck her out of the party?RochdalePioneers said:My perspective as a Labour member of 24 years 9 months (stint 1) and 5 days (stint 2):
Keir should expel the MPs who signed the deathwish demand. Publish the report in full would open the Labour Party to be sued to death for libel and egregious data protection breeches. A report which is clearly factional, clearly pulled together as an exoneration of the Jeremy by his faction at the expense of the party. Calling for such a thing brings the party into disrepute.
Doing so would create a mass walk-out. This is a Good Thing. The lunatics can go and join Galloway's Workers Party or form their own various "Unity" trot parties where everyone can ignore them. Better to get on with it and remove the cult now before it can do any more damage - indeed swift and decisive action would firmly cement Starmer's position and standing amongst the key demographic - former Labour voters. Follow it with a "the party lost your trust. We are sorry. We have acted" broadcast would be hugely powerful.
We are likely years away from an election where the government has a substantial majority. Cutting this group of MPs makes no difference to the parliamentary arithmetic, and I'd love to see Lloyd-Mole vote with the Tories in a strop having been expelled from Labour.
Get it done Keir. Get 'Em Out By Friday.
What Starmer should do, I don't know. But obviously, obviously not this.0 -
Hmm … it's what the Labour party likes doing, acting like a demented bacteria - splitting in two as fast as possible and continuing to do so.
I could vote for Labour under Starmer even though I find him smug. By his enemies shall we know him.0 -
There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:
https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=210
