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No, decent PMs have it on Mondays....Philip_Thompson said:
Otherwise, correct.0 -
I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
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Oh well, that policy will save a few quid. We can just sit back and let them go out and kill and bomb because "Its [sic] impossible to stop"contrarian said:
Complete deradicalisation is impossible without a draconian repression of free speech that would grossly impinge upon the rights of everybody else. Some are always going to slip through the net.Cyclefree said:
The ‘real problem ‘ being the radicalisation of the inmates and our failure to de-radicalise them effectively.
Its impossible to stop young men getting access to radicalising material in a free society.
Perhaps you can opine if the costs of damage caused would be less than the deradicalisation spend?0 -
No, it is not simple. For VAR to work properly, we need to turn a subjective criterion like involvement in play into an objective one, like is the player on the field or standing upright or something along those lines.Philip_Thompson said:
That's simple, let the referee determine who was interfering with play. That's his job. If he needs to check the pitchside monitor that should also be his job.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Take offside, even if we grant that whether a player is offside or not can be determined objectively by VAR and cleverly drawn, pixel-wide lines, the trouble is there is then a highly subjective decision about whether the offside player is interfering with play. There is no scientifically objective truth to be discovered by VAR.Philip_Thompson said:
To do a cricket analogy then multiple angles for handball is fair enough, like a stumping/run out or even a low catch which go frame by frame or multiple angles and even predate DRS.DecrepiterJohnL said:
The trouble with VAR for handball or offside is that it takes forever and does not replace the referee's subjective opinion with an objective one (like in tennis) but with another subjective view but from a different camera angle and repeated viewings.Philip_Thompson said:VAR is fine they just need to introduce a football equivalent of Umpires Call then get on with it.
I don't know any cricket fans who can't stand DRS or object to Umpires Call when the margins are tight.
VAR for offside is what really should have the Umpire's Call element like the ball tracker in DRS. DRS ball tracker takes a moment to appear but the second it appears the result is there with the trafic light coding - no squabbling.
In DRS the whole ball width needs to be either on the stumps or off the stumps for it not to be umpire's call - I'd use the same logic in football. The moment the lines appear if they are not at least a football's width apart then stick with the on field referees call. If they are at least a football's width apart then you have an instant decision from VAR. Job done.0 -
I didn't suggest life sentences on suspicion. I said on conviction.Nigelb said:
The plurality of those imprisoned for terrorist offences are serving sentences of less than four years. And out of those released, two out of over two hundred have actually gone on to committed acts of terror like this.
And for that you want to introduce preventive life sentences ?
As we saw with the London Bridge murderer, it is entirely likely that someone would be able "to satisfy the parole board they are now safe", and still go on to offend.
You are suggesting a highly expensive solution which would likely not be a great deal more effective than what we have now, and would introduce the principle of lifetime incarceration on suspicion into English law.
I do not think that would turn out well.
A couple of years for terrorism is farcical. Terrorism is the attempted murder of people. That should be a whole life sentence. But I maintain innocence until proven guilty of course, those who have been proven guilty should earn their release.
If the parole board is tricked then we should investigate and figure out what needs improvement.
Yes a sound criminal justice system may be expensive. Loss of life because you cut corners is not the solution. We should fund our criminal justice system with the same seriousness a week fund our military. Both are about keeping us safe.0 -
It only works if every sentence is a life sentence. Otherwise they eventually get out and since you have done nothing to help them or change their mind they will simply carry on as before.Philip_Thompson said:It is releasing people that doesn't.
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He's right, see para 1.93-1.98 of this electoral commission guide.OldKingCole said:
Are you sure about that? I thought that the death of any candidate would put the election back.Philip_Thompson said:
Tragic. Interesting though that the death of an independent leads to a delayed election there. It wouldn't here.Richard_Nabavi said:To add further complication in Ireland, the vote in Tipperary is going to have to be delayed until the end of the month because one of the candidates has sadly suddenly died. It returns 5 TDs, and the fact that they won't be in place is likely to be significant in the jostling to form a government after the election.
(Previous result 3 independents, one FF, one Lab).
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/bitesize-ballot-a-guide-to-tipperary-hopefuls-as-parties-set-to-pile-support-on-candidates-following-death-of-marese-skehan-38923046.html
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/UKPGE-Part-2a-Standing-as-an-independent-candidate.pdf0 -
Another day, another attempt to block the media from questioning Johnson.
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Only if they are standing for a party.OldKingCole said:
Are you sure about that? I thought that the death of any candidate would put the election back.Philip_Thompson said:
Tragic. Interesting though that the death of an independent leads to a delayed election there. It wouldn't here.Richard_Nabavi said:To add further complication in Ireland, the vote in Tipperary is going to have to be delayed until the end of the month because one of the candidates has sadly suddenly died. It returns 5 TDs, and the fact that they won't be in place is likely to be significant in the jostling to form a government after the election.
(Previous result 3 independents, one FF, one Lab).
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/bitesize-ballot-a-guide-to-tipperary-hopefuls-as-parties-set-to-pile-support-on-candidates-following-death-of-marese-skehan-38923046.html0 -
Not all terror offences are attempted terror attacks. Some are membership of a banned group, or fundraising, or promoting/advocating for. It makes sense we don't treat these as seriously as the directly violent crimes.Philip_Thompson said:
I didn't suggest life sentences on suspicion. I said on conviction.Nigelb said:
The plurality of those imprisoned for terrorist offences are serving sentences of less than four years. And out of those released, two out of over two hundred have actually gone on to committed acts of terror like this.
And for that you want to introduce preventive life sentences ?
As we saw with the London Bridge murderer, it is entirely likely that someone would be able "to satisfy the parole board they are now safe", and still go on to offend.
You are suggesting a highly expensive solution which would likely not be a great deal more effective than what we have now, and would introduce the principle of lifetime incarceration on suspicion into English law.
I do not think that would turn out well.
A couple of years for terrorism is farcical. Terrorism is the attempted murder of people. That should be a whole life sentence. But I maintain innocence until proven guilty of course, those who have been proven guilty should earn their release.
If the parole board is tricked then we should investigate and figure out what needs improvement.
Yes a sound criminal justice system may be expensive. Loss of life because you cut corners is not the solution. We should fund our criminal justice system with the same seriousness a week fund our military. Both are about keeping us safe.0 -
There's going to be a ban on electric vehicles? Banning petrol or diesel is no different to banning lead vehicles.contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.1 -
Thanks.Nigelb said:
Let's see if they announce it today (tonight for us) first.Casino_Royale said:Will they have to rerun the caucus? Or will Iowa’s delegates just be voided?
There was a statement that they had a full paper trail, FWTW.0 -
SF are going withdraw the 26 counties from the NATO PfP program which is perceived as step toward full membership.viewcode said:
It was briefly discussed. @Philip_Thompson wanted to know if Sinn Fein in the Republic had different policies than the party in the north. Apart from some knowledgeable contributors, PB doesn't really do Ireland, although hopefully it'll up its game for this one.Richard_Nabavi said:Whilst we're waiting for the Iowans to add up a few numbers, have we covered the latest Irish poll showing Sinn Féin in the lead?
Excitingly for Leavers they are also going to pull out of PESCO; the nascent "EU Army" the horror of which haunts their every waking hour.
They also plan to allow collective bargaining for military pay and conditions (like Denmark and the Netherlands). A progressive move which will increase the effectiveness of their armed forces and one the UK should definitely follow but never will because the Daily Mail gripped by palsied fingers and read by rheumy eyes would not stand for it.2 -
The deradicalism spend should be replaced with a T shirt and underpants with 'get with the programme' on them.Beibheirli_C said:
Oh well, that policy will save a few quid. We can just sit back and let them go out and kill and bomb because "Its [sic] impossible to stop"contrarian said:
Complete deradicalisation is impossible without a draconian repression of free speech that would grossly impinge upon the rights of everybody else. Some are always going to slip through the net.Cyclefree said:
The ‘real problem ‘ being the radicalisation of the inmates and our failure to de-radicalise them effectively.
Its impossible to stop young men getting access to radicalising material in a free society.
Perhaps you can opine if the costs of damage caused would be less than the deradicalisation spend?
Britain is one of the freest, wealthiest societies in the world. Opportunities abound for all and protections against discrimination are enshrined in law. All communities grasp this, and many in the muslim community do to.
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.0 -
A "libertarian" speaks. 👀Philip_Thompson said:Locking up people works.
It is releasing people that doesn't.0 -
The Streatham lad was imprisoned precisely for those lesser orders of terrorist activity. A useful question may be would intervention have worked at that point.Quincel said:
Not all terror offences are attempted terror attacks. Some are membership of a banned group, or fundraising, or promoting/advocating for. It makes sense we don't treat these as seriously as the directly violent crimes.Philip_Thompson said:
I didn't suggest life sentences on suspicion. I said on conviction.Nigelb said:
The plurality of those imprisoned for terrorist offences are serving sentences of less than four years. And out of those released, two out of over two hundred have actually gone on to committed acts of terror like this.
And for that you want to introduce preventive life sentences ?
As we saw with the London Bridge murderer, it is entirely likely that someone would be able "to satisfy the parole board they are now safe", and still go on to offend.
You are suggesting a highly expensive solution which would likely not be a great deal more effective than what we have now, and would introduce the principle of lifetime incarceration on suspicion into English law.
I do not think that would turn out well.
A couple of years for terrorism is farcical. Terrorism is the attempted murder of people. That should be a whole life sentence. But I maintain innocence until proven guilty of course, those who have been proven guilty should earn their release.
If the parole board is tricked then we should investigate and figure out what needs improvement.
Yes a sound criminal justice system may be expensive. Loss of life because you cut corners is not the solution. We should fund our criminal justice system with the same seriousness a week fund our military. Both are about keeping us safe.0 -
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
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Thanks; never been involved with an election where a candidate died.Quincel said:
He's right, see para 1.93-1.98 of this electoral commission guide.OldKingCole said:
Are you sure about that? I thought that the death of any candidate would put the election back.Philip_Thompson said:
Tragic. Interesting though that the death of an independent leads to a delayed election there. It wouldn't here.Richard_Nabavi said:To add further complication in Ireland, the vote in Tipperary is going to have to be delayed until the end of the month because one of the candidates has sadly suddenly died. It returns 5 TDs, and the fact that they won't be in place is likely to be significant in the jostling to form a government after the election.
(Previous result 3 independents, one FF, one Lab).
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/bitesize-ballot-a-guide-to-tipperary-hopefuls-as-parties-set-to-pile-support-on-candidates-following-death-of-marese-skehan-38923046.html
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/UKPGE-Part-2a-Standing-as-an-independent-candidate.pdf
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Dura_Ace said:
SF are going withdraw the 26 counties from the NATO PfP program which is perceived as step toward full membership.viewcode said:
It was briefly discussed. @Philip_Thompson wanted to know if Sinn Fein in the Republic had different policies than the party in the north. Apart from some knowledgeable contributors, PB doesn't really do Ireland, although hopefully it'll up its game for this one.Richard_Nabavi said:Whilst we're waiting for the Iowans to add up a few numbers, have we covered the latest Irish poll showing Sinn Féin in the lead?
Excitingly for Leavers they are also going to pull out of PESCO; the nascent "EU Army" the horror of which haunts their every waking hour.
They also plan to allow collective bargaining for military pay and conditions (like Denmark and the Netherlands). A progressive move which will increase the effectiveness of their armed forces and one the UK should definitely follow but never will because the Daily Mail gripped by palsied fingers and read by rheumy eyes would not stand for it.
Your posts make it worth coming to this place0 -
We are at the stage that Journalists themselves are counting the Iowa results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VpPjgfoH-n7Ie8OmIa2eHoP88IvIkBR9wwkUL7bO1Y4/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
With what looks like around 10% in the result is:
First Vote
Sanders 27%
Warren 24%
Buttigieg 19%
Klobuchar 13%
Biden 11%
Second Vote
Sanders 30%
Warren 26%
Buttigieg 22%
Klobuchar 14%
Biden 6%
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No I am advocating very long sentences for people who want to use indiscrimate murder and mayhem to fundamentally destroy a society I think is worth fighting for.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
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Actually it is a smart move.contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
By joining with David Attenborough in announcing the ban on new petrol, diesel and hybrid cars by 2035 he will have almost certainly caused panic in Germany and added some substance to Nissan closing their european factories and concentrating electric car production in the UK, almost certainly capturing a large market share. I notice Ireland have announced 2030 for the same ban
It must be remembered that Boris is surrounded by green supporters including Cummings, Carrie and Gove and expect to hear a lot more on saving the planet as we move to Cop 260 -
The 'real problem' is decades of mass immigration of people with a conflicting religious, social and political outlook to the host country, and that is probably unsolvable nowCyclefree said:
The ‘real problem ‘ being the radicalisation of the inmates and our failure to de-radicalise them effectively.contrarian said:
The 'real problem' being what exactly ?'Theuniondivvie said:
It works the way a tourniquet works; temporarily, causing damage in itself and with extremely serious consequences if the real problem isn't fixed.Philip_Thompson said:
Locking up people works.Theuniondivvie said:
The current government sees everything through a political prism and look to what resonates with their base; locking people up does that job, long term solutions that rehabilitate people but cost money don't.OldKingCole said:
Thanks for that Ms Cyclefree.Cyclefree said:On deradicalisation programmes within prison -
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/streatham-terror-attack-extremists-can-be-deradicalised-but-it-takes-resources-t7gkwdm07
and
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/london-bridge-attack-i-told-ministers-we-were-treating-terrorist-prisoners-with-jaw-dropping-naivety-did-they-listen-9ngbtgt7z.
And this is the report, as published by the government - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/islamist-extremism-in-prisons-probation-and-youth-justice/summary-of-the-main-findings-of-the-review-of-islamist-extremism-in-prisons-probation-and-youth-justice
Some years ago I attended a course on 'Islam in the Modern World' organised by the WEA. The speaker was a Bengali Muslim who had fought in several conflicts.... Balkans, Afghanistan, but, while retaining a strong faith had become de-radicalised as a result of both experiences and contact with more peaceful imams. The experience reinforced my belief that 'simply' locking people up isn't the whole answer; as with many other anti-social activities, concurrent re-education is essential.
Coincidentally a lot of the people going all Priti currently also seem to venerate Maajid Nawaz as their favourite reformed Islamist. Presumably they think he should have been chucked into Belmarsh when returning to the UK after being locked up in Egypt.
It is releasing people that doesn't.0 -
Worse. He thinks the people who vote for him believe this crap. He’s applying the “fool some of the people” principle of politics. It’s worked for him so far.rottenborough said:0 -
I think a little detail on how the whole 'get with the program' program might be embodied in law might be... instructive.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.0 -
Conservative/libertarian hybrid - a lot of them about. (To be honest, I agree with them some of the time.)kinabalu said:
A "libertarian" speaks. 👀Philip_Thompson said:Locking up people works.
It is releasing people that doesn't.0 -
Just finally watching the BBC documentary on The Troubles and was at the bit which showed Maggie in a PARA Reg beret.Dura_Ace said:
SF are going withdraw the 26 counties from the NATO PfP program which is perceived as step toward full membership.viewcode said:
It was briefly discussed. @Philip_Thompson wanted to know if Sinn Fein in the Republic had different policies than the party in the north. Apart from some knowledgeable contributors, PB doesn't really do Ireland, although hopefully it'll up its game for this one.Richard_Nabavi said:Whilst we're waiting for the Iowans to add up a few numbers, have we covered the latest Irish poll showing Sinn Féin in the lead?
Excitingly for Leavers they are also going to pull out of PESCO; the nascent "EU Army" the horror of which haunts their every waking hour.
They also plan to allow collective bargaining for military pay and conditions (like Denmark and the Netherlands). A progressive move which will increase the effectiveness of their armed forces and one the UK should definitely follow but never will because the Daily Mail gripped by palsied fingers and read by rheumy eyes would not stand for it.
Those were the days. What a babe.0 -
A properly constituted and funded deradicalisation program would probably have answered that question prior to his release.Theuniondivvie said:
The Streatham lad was imprisoned precisely for those lesser orders of terrorist activity. A useful question may be would intervention have worked at that point.Quincel said:
Not all terror offences are attempted terror attacks. Some are membership of a banned group, or fundraising, or promoting/advocating for. It makes sense we don't treat these as seriously as the directly violent crimes.Philip_Thompson said:
I didn't suggest life sentences on suspicion. I said on conviction.Nigelb said:
The plurality of those imprisoned for terrorist offences are serving sentences of less than four years. And out of those released, two out of over two hundred have actually gone on to committed acts of terror like this.
And for that you want to introduce preventive life sentences ?
As we saw with the London Bridge murderer, it is entirely likely that someone would be able "to satisfy the parole board they are now safe", and still go on to offend.
You are suggesting a highly expensive solution which would likely not be a great deal more effective than what we have now, and would introduce the principle of lifetime incarceration on suspicion into English law.
I do not think that would turn out well.
A couple of years for terrorism is farcical. Terrorism is the attempted murder of people. That should be a whole life sentence. But I maintain innocence until proven guilty of course, those who have been proven guilty should earn their release.
If the parole board is tricked then we should investigate and figure out what needs improvement.
Yes a sound criminal justice system may be expensive. Loss of life because you cut corners is not the solution. We should fund our criminal justice system with the same seriousness a week fund our military. Both are about keeping us safe.0 -
To be honest, I think releasing terrorists is fine, so long as armed police are watching/following them. If they commit or attempt to commit an act of terror, they'll get what they deserve. Seems reasonable to me.0
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What level of intent are we looking at here? 20 years for some inadequate arsehole texting his inadequate arsehole pal that he wants to kill kafirs (or indeed eg Sturgeon/Johnson/Corbyn)?contrarian said:
No I am advocating very long sentences for people who want to use indiscrimate murder and mayhem to fundamentally destroy a society I think is worth fighting for.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.0 -
The anticlimax has completely screwed the campaigns of Buttigieg, Warren and Klobuchar. It will be Biden or Sanders now as everyone else was working on an Iowa bounce.speedy2 said:We are at the stage that Journalists themselves are counting the Iowa results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VpPjgfoH-n7Ie8OmIa2eHoP88IvIkBR9wwkUL7bO1Y4/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
With what looks like around 10% in the result is:
First Vote
Sanders 27%
Warren 24%
Buttigieg 19%
Klobuchar 13%
Biden 11%
Second Vote
Sanders 30%
Warren 26%
Buttigieg 22%
Klobuchar 14%
Biden 6%1 -
He was the bl%$£*y Foreign Secretary for some of that time! Is he trying to suggest he was just the EU Commission's puppet at that time?Cyclefree said:
Worse. He thinks the people who vote for him believe this crap. He’s applying the “fool some of the people” principle of politics. It’s worked for him so far.rottenborough said:0 -
“This is simply a reporting issue, the app did not go down and this is not a hack or an intrusion,” said Mandy McClure, the Iowa party’s communications director. “The underlying data and paper trail is sound and will simply take time to further report the results.”speedy2 said:We are at the stage that Journalists themselves are counting the Iowa results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VpPjgfoH-n7Ie8OmIa2eHoP88IvIkBR9wwkUL7bO1Y4/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
With what looks like around 10% in the result is:
First Vote
Sanders 27%
Warren 24%
Buttigieg 19%
Klobuchar 13%
Biden 11%
Second Vote
Sanders 30%
Warren 26%
Buttigieg 22%
Klobuchar 14%
Biden 6%0 -
What - like the US where you can get 180 year sentences (providing they do not execute you)?contrarian said:
No I am advocating very long sentences for people who want to use indiscrimate murder and mayhem to fundamentally destroy a society I think is worth fighting for.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
You do know that their prisons are stuffed solid, they incarcerate more of their population than just about any other 1st world country and that the prisons are a wonderful recruiting ground for gangs and dealers?
And they still have way more violence than we do.You are safer in Sudan or Bangladesh than the US0 -
Absolutely not. The vast majority of people know exactly what it means because its what they do every day.Nigelb said:
I think a little detail on how the whole 'get with the program' program might be embodied in law might be... instructive.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
Others, like people addicted to drugs etc. (and even some involved in the substance supply industry) probably need less jail time and a new approach, but that's a different story.
Terrorism? nope. Zero tolerance. Zero.
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His Mum says what a nice quiet boy he was.Nigelb said:
A properly constituted and funded deradicalisation program would probably have answered that question prior to his release.Theuniondivvie said:
The Streatham lad was imprisoned precisely for those lesser orders of terrorist activity. A useful question may be would intervention have worked at that point.Quincel said:
Not all terror offences are attempted terror attacks. Some are membership of a banned group, or fundraising, or promoting/advocating for. It makes sense we don't treat these as seriously as the directly violent crimes.Philip_Thompson said:
I didn't suggest life sentences on suspicion. I said on conviction.Nigelb said:
The plurality of those imprisoned for terrorist offences are serving sentences of less than four years. And out of those released, two out of over two hundred have actually gone on to committed acts of terror like this.
And for that you want to introduce preventive life sentences ?
As we saw with the London Bridge murderer, it is entirely likely that someone would be able "to satisfy the parole board they are now safe", and still go on to offend.
You are suggesting a highly expensive solution which would likely not be a great deal more effective than what we have now, and would introduce the principle of lifetime incarceration on suspicion into English law.
I do not think that would turn out well.
A couple of years for terrorism is farcical. Terrorism is the attempted murder of people. That should be a whole life sentence. But I maintain innocence until proven guilty of course, those who have been proven guilty should earn their release.
If the parole board is tricked then we should investigate and figure out what needs improvement.
Yes a sound criminal justice system may be expensive. Loss of life because you cut corners is not the solution. We should fund our criminal justice system with the same seriousness a week fund our military. Both are about keeping us safe.0 -
Deleted. Messed up block quotes.0
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So you're proposing detention without trial ?contrarian said:
Absolutely not. The vast majority of people know exactly what is means because its what they do every day.Nigelb said:
I think a little detail on how the whole 'get with the program' program might be embodied in law might be... instructive.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
Others, like people addicted to drugs etc. (and even some involved in the substance supply industry_ probably need less jail time and a new approach, but that's a different story.
Terrorism? nope. Zero tolerance. Zero.0 -
Looks like the most serious consequence of the coronavirus is that it might delay the production/release of the next generation of iPhones (due in September.)0
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I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.0 -
Internment did wonders for Northern Ireland *sarcasm emoji*Nigelb said:
So you're proposing detention without trial ?contrarian said:
Absolutely not. The vast majority of people know exactly what is means because its what they do every day.Nigelb said:
I think a little detail on how the whole 'get with the program' program might be embodied in law might be... instructive.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
Others, like people addicted to drugs etc. (and even some involved in the substance supply industry_ probably need less jail time and a new approach, but that's a different story.
Terrorism? nope. Zero tolerance. Zero.0 -
Sanders too was counting on Iowa to kick Biden out.Gabs3 said:
The anticlimax has completely screwed the campaigns of Buttigieg, Warren and Klobuchar. It will be Biden or Sanders now as everyone else was working on an Iowa bounce.speedy2 said:We are at the stage that Journalists themselves are counting the Iowa results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VpPjgfoH-n7Ie8OmIa2eHoP88IvIkBR9wwkUL7bO1Y4/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
With what looks like around 10% in the result is:
First Vote
Sanders 27%
Warren 24%
Buttigieg 19%
Klobuchar 13%
Biden 11%
Second Vote
Sanders 30%
Warren 26%
Buttigieg 22%
Klobuchar 14%
Biden 6%
Only Biden and Trump have won from this mess.0 -
He is telling his supporters what they want to hear. Just like all good megalomaniacs...OldKingCole said:
He was the bl%$£*y Foreign Secretary for some of that time! Is he trying to suggest he was just the EU Commission's puppet at that time?Cyclefree said:
Worse. He thinks the people who vote for him believe this crap. He’s applying the “fool some of the people” principle of politics. It’s worked for him so far.rottenborough said:twitter.com/patmcfaddenmp/status/1224631321458356224
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Good points but I think drug related gang crime and terrorism are two completely separate social problems with very different roots and solutions.Beibheirli_C said:
What - like the US where you can get 180 year sentences (providing they do not execute you)?contrarian said:
No I am advocating very long sentences for people who want to use indiscrimate murder and mayhem to fundamentally destroy a society I think is worth fighting for.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
You do know that their prisons are stuffed solid, they incarcerate more of their population than just about any other 1st world country and that the prisons are a wonderful recruiting ground for gangs and dealers?
And they still have way more violence than we do.You are safer in Sudan or Bangladesh than the US
IF it was me I'd advocate widespread legalisation of drugs, but as I say that's a separate issue for me.0 -
@Isam said:
@Cyclefree said
The 'real problem' is decades of mass immigration of people with a conflicting religious, social and political outlook to the host country, and that is probably unsolvable now
This particular individual was not an immigrant. And his mother is not an extremist, as far as we know. So attributing his move to extremism in the last few years to what happened decades ago may or may not be correct. Quite why some of those born, brought up here and educated here turn to extremism needs more Intelligent attention than it is getting.
Not saying that your wider point doesn’t have merit but it is a wider issue than this one.
I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain0 -
I thought the giveaway as to being a hardened terrorist was that the neighbours describe them as being very polite and keeping themselves to themselves.OldKingCole said:
His Mum says what a nice quiet boy he was.Nigelb said:
A properly constituted and funded deradicalisation program would probably have answered that question prior to his release.Theuniondivvie said:
The Streatham lad was imprisoned precisely for those lesser orders of terrorist activity. A useful question may be would intervention have worked at that point.Quincel said:
Not all terror offences are attempted terror attacks. Some are membership of a banned group, or fundraising, or promoting/advocating for. It makes sense we don't treat these as seriously as the directly violent crimes.Philip_Thompson said:
I didn't suggest life sentences on suspicion. I said on conviction.Nigelb said:
The plurality of those imprisoned for terrorist offences are serving sentences of less than four years. And out of those released, two out of over two hundred have actually gone on to committed acts of terror like this.
And for that you want to introduce preventive life sentences ?
As we saw with the London Bridge murderer, it is entirely likely that someone would be able "to satisfy the parole board they are now safe", and still go on to offend.
You are suggesting a highly expensive solution which would likely not be a great deal more effective than what we have now, and would introduce the principle of lifetime incarceration on suspicion into English law.
I do not think that would turn out well.
A couple of years for terrorism is farcical. Terrorism is the attempted murder of people. That should be a whole life sentence. But I maintain innocence until proven guilty of course, those who have been proven guilty should earn their release.
If the parole board is tricked then we should investigate and figure out what needs improvement.
Yes a sound criminal justice system may be expensive. Loss of life because you cut corners is not the solution. We should fund our criminal justice system with the same seriousness a week fund our military. Both are about keeping us safe.2 -
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.0 -
This particular individual was not an immigrant. And his mother is not an extremist, as far as we know. So attributing his move to extremism in the last few years to what happened decades ago may or may not be correct. Quite why some of those born, brought up here and educated here turn to extremism needs more Intelligent attention than it is getting.isam said:
The 'real problem' is decades of mass immigration of people with a conflicting religious, social and political outlook to the host country, and that is probably unsolvable nowCyclefree said:
The ‘real problem ‘ being the radicalisation of the inmates and our failure to de-radicalise them effectively.contrarian said:
The 'real problem' being what exactly ?'Theuniondivvie said:
It works the way a tourniquet works; temporarily, causing damage in itself and with extremely serious consequences if the real problem isn't fixed.Philip_Thompson said:
Locking up people works.Theuniondivvie said:
The current government sees everything through a political prism and look to what resonates with their base; locking people up does that job, long term solutions that rehabilitate people but cost money don't.OldKingCole said:
Thanks for that Ms Cyclefree.Cyclefree said:
Some years ago I attended a course on 'Islam in the Modern World' organised by the WEA. The speaker was a Bengali Muslim who had fought in several conflicts.... Balkans, Afghanistan, but, while retaining a strong faith had become de-radicalised as a result of both experiences and contact with more peaceful imams. The experience reinforced my belief that 'simply' locking people up isn't the whole answer; as with many other anti-social activities, concurrent re-education is essential.
Coincidentally a lot of the people going all Priti currently also seem to venerate Maajid Nawaz as their favourite reformed Islamist. Presumably they think he should have been chucked into Belmarsh when returning to the UK after being locked up in Egypt.
It is releasing people that doesn't.
Not saying that your wider point doesn’t have merit but it is a wider issue than this one.0 -
To be fair, Ms Cyclefree, it depends on your definition of an 'immigrant'.Cyclefree said:Deleted. Messed up block quotes.
0 -
Absolutely not. 100% opposed. Innocent until proven guilty.Nigelb said:
So you're proposing detention without trial ?contrarian said:
Absolutely not. The vast majority of people know exactly what is means because its what they do every day.Nigelb said:
I think a little detail on how the whole 'get with the program' program might be embodied in law might be... instructive.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
Others, like people addicted to drugs etc. (and even some involved in the substance supply industry_ probably need less jail time and a new approach, but that's a different story.
Terrorism? nope. Zero tolerance. Zero.0 -
They won't be in 15 years. Nissan for instance is already busy moving over e.g. this years version one of their core models the Qashqai, made in Sunderland, will no longer be made with a diesel engine, they will offer hybrid. Give it 5-10 years and it will be electric only.contrarian said:
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
15 years is plenty of time to transition away from tradition engines, given that most producers have investing in doing so for years now.0 -
A woman scorned and scornful.
'On the prime minister personally, she said: “My advice to anybody to whom Boris is making promises – whether it is voters, world leaders, ministers, employees or indeed, to family members – is to get it in writing, get a lawyer to look at it and make sure the money is in the bank.”'
https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1224632780258271233?s=200 -
Yes, but under what laws are you proposing to incarcerate these people for life ?contrarian said:
Absolutely not. 100% opposed. Innocent until proven guilty.Nigelb said:
So you're proposing detention without trial ?contrarian said:
Absolutely not. The vast majority of people know exactly what is means because its what they do every day.Nigelb said:
I think a little detail on how the whole 'get with the program' program might be embodied in law might be... instructive.Beibheirli_C said:
What are you proposing? Death penalty for parking offences? Or just branding on the cheek?contrarian said:
So get with the programme. Or face an extremely severe punishment. End of argument.
Others, like people addicted to drugs etc. (and even some involved in the substance supply industry_ probably need less jail time and a new approach, but that's a different story.
Terrorism? nope. Zero tolerance. Zero.
Because they don't exist at the moment.0 -
Only when it happens to someone else.AlastairMeeks said:Don't you love farce?
0 -
@Cyclefree saidisam said:@Isam said:
The 'real problem' is decades of mass immigration of people with a conflicting religious, social and political outlook to the host country, and that is probably unsolvable now
This particular individual was not an immigrant. And his mother is not an extremist, as far as we know. So attributing his move to extremism in the last few years to what happened decades ago may or may not be correct. Quite why some of those born, brought up here and educated here turn to extremism needs more Intelligent attention than it is getting.
Not saying that your wider point doesn’t have merit but it is a wider issue than this one.
I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
In response to @isam (as I appear to have messed up the block quotes again):-
Understood. By the same token you could say that allowing migration / free movement from Ireland was responsible for every single Irish terrorist attack in Britain in the last century. You can try and reverse this or stop further migration. But you still have to deal with why those born here turn to extremism, try and stop that and take steps to reverse this when it happens.
Simply saying that the problem arises from decisions taken years ago, - even if true - and that there is nothing therefore to be done is a counsel of despair and may not even be true.0 -
Conservative Abrahamic religions are extremely hard to convince people out of. Judaism and Islam in particular also have very militant parts of the holy texts, with no equivalent to the New Testament to offset it. That doesn't get you to extremism on your own, but it makes for very easy ground to get you there. Jews in the UK are typically irreligious or reform, so we don't really have a problem there (but see the settler movement in Israel...). That isn't true for Muslims, many of which come from conservative parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan or Somalia, or inherit their base religious beliefs from parents that have.Cyclefree said:Deleted. Messed up block quotes.
I am broadly very pro-immigration, skilled and unskilled. But where I do have pause is on religious reactionaries.0 -
He needs to make it shorter:TheScreamingEagles said:
"The Democrats can't run a Caucus and they want to run the Country ?"1 -
The Tesla model 3 was the third biggest selling model in Europe in December.contrarian said:
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
Tesla built a new factory in China in under twelve months last year, and it will be in full scale production later this year.
It is possible for the changeover to happen very fast indeed, and moves like this will help.
0 -
That's the point though. It doesn;t deserve more intelligent attention. It deserves less attention. Just don;t do it. We don;t want to understand or spend time annd money on you because what you have turned to is totally abhorrent.Cyclefree said:
This particular individual was not an immigrant. And his mother is not an extremist, as far as we know. So attributing his move to extremism in the last few years to what happened decades ago may or may not be correct. Quite why some of those born, brought up here and educated here turn to extremism needs more Intelligent attention than it is getting.isam said:
The 'real problem' is decades of mass immigration of people with a conflicting religious, social and political outlook to the host country, and that is probably unsolvable nowCyclefree said:
The ‘real problem ‘ being the radicalisation of the inmates and our failure to de-radicalise them effectively.contrarian said:
The 'real problem' being what exactly ?'Theuniondivvie said:
It works the way a tourniquet works; temporarily, causing damage in itself and with extremely serious consequences if the real problem isn't fixed.Philip_Thompson said:
Locking up people works.Theuniondivvie said:
The current government sees everything through a political prism and look to what resonates with their base; locking people up does that job, long term solutions that rehabilitate people but cost money don't.OldKingCole said:
Thanks for that Ms Cyclefree.Cyclefree said:
Some years ago I attended a course on 'Islam in the Modern World' organised by the WEA. The speaker was a Bengali Muslim who had fought in several conflicts.... Balkans, Afghanistan, but, while retaining a strong faith had become de-radicalised as a result of both experiences and contact with more peaceful imams. The experience reinforced my belief that 'simply' locking people up isn't the whole answer; as with many other anti-social activities, concurrent re-education is essential.
Coincidentally a lot of the people going all Priti currently also seem to venerate Maajid Nawaz as their favourite reformed Islamist. Presumably they think he should have been chucked into Belmarsh when returning to the UK after being locked up in Egypt.
It is releasing people that doesn't.
Not saying that your wider point doesn’t have merit but it is a wider issue than this one.0 -
Bloomberg and Steyer too.speedy2 said:
Sanders too was counting on Iowa to kick Biden out.Gabs3 said:
The anticlimax has completely screwed the campaigns of Buttigieg, Warren and Klobuchar. It will be Biden or Sanders now as everyone else was working on an Iowa bounce.speedy2 said:We are at the stage that Journalists themselves are counting the Iowa results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VpPjgfoH-n7Ie8OmIa2eHoP88IvIkBR9wwkUL7bO1Y4/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
With what looks like around 10% in the result is:
First Vote
Sanders 27%
Warren 24%
Buttigieg 19%
Klobuchar 13%
Biden 11%
Second Vote
Sanders 30%
Warren 26%
Buttigieg 22%
Klobuchar 14%
Biden 6%
Only Biden and Trump have won from this mess.0 -
The Iowa Democratic party is not going to be running the country whatever the outcome of this November's election.speedy2 said:
He needs to make it shorter:TheScreamingEagles said:
"The Democrats can't run a Caucus and they want to run the Country ?"
(Which is probably just as well.)0 -
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.0 -
Re banning petrol / diesel cars, many European countries have already said their sale will be banned either 2030 or 2040. So it isn't as if major manufacturers are going to be put out by just the UK saying 2035.0
-
OT: I see Momentum have bought advertising space at the Cricket...0
-
There was a rumour that Boris's team bought up a lot of unsold copies of his sister's book about Oxford, where Boris had written about politics and stooges.Beibheirli_C said:
He is telling his supporters what they want to hear. Just like all good megalomaniacs...OldKingCole said:
He was the bl%$£*y Foreign Secretary for some of that time! Is he trying to suggest he was just the EU Commission's puppet at that time?Cyclefree said:
Worse. He thinks the people who vote for him believe this crap. He’s applying the “fool some of the people” principle of politics. It’s worked for him so far.rottenborough said:twitter.com/patmcfaddenmp/status/1224631321458356224
1 -
There are some pretty odd Christian sects about too. We haven't had the same degree of wackiness as some Americans seem to have, but that might only be time.TOPPING said:
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.0 -
FFS first Morgan runs out Root now he's given his wicket away.
England are rubbish in one dayers.
Plus no Buttler and Stokes in this team.0 -
"a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar."TOPPING said:
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.
Yes, almost exactly the problem. That is why it was a disastrous policy to allow Islamic immigration to the extent we did.
A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair.
The only thing that will stop Islamic extremism is Islamic representation, and then we will see more right wing extremism, so its all bad
0 -
Its a good job we bat deep :-)TheScreamingEagles said:FFS first Morgan runs out Root now he's given his wicket away.
England are rubbish in one dayers.
Plus no Buttler and Stokes in this team.0 -
I make that 72 + (5 satellite) out of 1686, so less than 5%.speedy2 said:We are at the stage that Journalists themselves are counting the Iowa results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VpPjgfoH-n7Ie8OmIa2eHoP88IvIkBR9wwkUL7bO1Y4/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0
With what looks like around 10% in the result is:
First Vote
Sanders 27%
Warren 24%
Buttigieg 19%
Klobuchar 13%
Biden 11%
Second Vote
Sanders 30%
Warren 26%
Buttigieg 22%
Klobuchar 14%
Biden 6%
That sead, I would be using the time to working on a good conseshtion speech if I was working in the Biden campaign.0 -
0
-
The picture is a lot more complex than you claim I think. Some people are attracted to radicalism, sure but many others prbably drift away from Islam. Our society influences them and their attitudes and their children's attitudes.isam said:
"a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar."TOPPING said:
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.
Yes, almost exactly the problem. That is why it was a disastrous policy to allow Islamic immigration to the extent we did.
A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair.
The only thing that will stop Islamic extremism is Islamic representation, and then we will see more right wing extremism, so its all bad
Recently a muslim uber driver was complaining to me about his kids having to learn about LGBT people at the age of 5.
0 -
You want some sort of "official control" for Muslims?isam said:
"a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar."TOPPING said:
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.
Yes, almost exactly the problem. That is why it was a disastrous policy to allow Islamic immigration to the extent we did.
A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair.
The only thing that will stop Islamic extremism is Islamic representation, and then we will see more right wing extremism, so its all bad
Not how we do it in the UK, pal.0 -
-
Except electric tech doesn't even nearly begin to work for some users. I put my usage patterns into an EV calculator recently, and it told me that there was nothing on the market that was suitable. If they were insisting on hybrid tech, that might be sensible, but pure EVs are so far off being able to match some ICE useage patterns it's madness.FrancisUrquhart said:
They won't be in 15 years. Nissan for instance is already busy moving over e.g. this years version one of their core models the Qashqai, made in Sunderland, will no longer be made with a diesel engine, they will offer hybrid. Give it 5-10 years and it will be electric only.contrarian said:
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
15 years is plenty of time to transition away from tradition engines, given that most producers have investing in doing so for years now.
That's before looking at the requirements for my employer's business for a light pickup truck, 1.5T capacity, would need 1000 mile range - and we are the people who literally keep you supplied with life's essentials (in our case, mostly water).
They are also really going to screw the poor. When I was fairly impoverished I invested £300 in a 17 year old diesel Skoda. Apart from being old and scruffy it was basically as good as a new car to use - it started, drove me were I wanted, managed to get the right side of 50mpg. Buying a old Nissan Leaf will probably mean a range that doesn't get you 20 miles. Which in turn will make the residuals really poor, which will do over new buyers too.0 -
Oh ye of little faith.. would it not be better to wait and see if the Saffers are even more crap?TheScreamingEagles said:FFS first Morgan runs out Root now he's given his wicket away.
England are rubbish in one dayers.
Plus no Buttler and Stokes in this team.0 -
There will still be a market for 2nd hand cars come 2035. They are only banning sale of new cars. And that is another 15 years of technological development away. To put in perspective the iPhone has only been about 10 years and v1 was utter crap.theProle said:
Except electric tech doesn't even nearly begin to work for some users. I put my usage patterns into an EV calculator recently, and it told me that there was nothing on the market that was suitable. If they were insisting on hybrid tech, that might be sensible, but pure EVs are so far off being able to match some ICE useage patterns it's madness.FrancisUrquhart said:
They won't be in 15 years. Nissan for instance is already busy moving over e.g. this years version one of their core models the Qashqai, made in Sunderland, will no longer be made with a diesel engine, they will offer hybrid. Give it 5-10 years and it will be electric only.contrarian said:
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
15 years is plenty of time to transition away from tradition engines, given that most producers have investing in doing so for years now.
That's before looking at the requirements for my employer's business for a light pickup truck, 1.5T capacity, would need 1000 mile range - and we are the people who literally keep you supplied with life's essentials (in our case, mostly water).
They are also really going to screw the poor. When I was fairly impoverished I invested £300 in a 17 year old diesel Skoda. Apart from being old and scruffy it was basically as good as a new car to use - it started, drove me were I wanted, managed to get the right side of 50mpg. Buying a old Nissan Leaf will probably mean a range that doesn't get you 20 miles. Which in turn will make the residuals really poor, which will do over new buyers too.
Furthermore, it is expected there will be another 10+ years of petrol cars being on the road.
Personally, I am not a big fan of outright bans, rather providing incentives.0 -
Any news from Iowa?0
-
-
Please don't patronise me with "pal" like that, can't see why you'd want to annoy me.TOPPING said:
You want some sort of "official control" for Muslims?isam said:
"a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar."TOPPING said:
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.
Yes, almost exactly the problem. That is why it was a disastrous policy to allow Islamic immigration to the extent we did.
A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair.
The only thing that will stop Islamic extremism is Islamic representation, and then we will see more right wing extremism, so its all bad
Not how we do it in the UK, pal.
Back to your point, I don't understand why you are placing those words in my mouth, they dont resemble anything I said nor think0 -
We could have a situation like Cuba where decrepit 1950s American cars are still being driven around because new models are not available. How great would that be?FrancisUrquhart said:
There will still be a market for 2nd hand cars come 2035. It is expected there will be another 10+ years of petrol cars being on the road.theProle said:
Except electric tech doesn't even nearly begin to work for some users. I put my usage patterns into an EV calculator recently, and it told me that there was nothing on the market that was suitable. If they were insisting on hybrid tech, that might be sensible, but pure EVs are so far off being able to match some ICE useage patterns it's madness.FrancisUrquhart said:
They won't be in 15 years. Nissan for instance is already busy moving over e.g. this years version one of their core models the Qashqai, made in Sunderland, will no longer be made with a diesel engine, they will offer hybrid. Give it 5-10 years and it will be electric only.contrarian said:
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
15 years is plenty of time to transition away from tradition engines, given that most producers have investing in doing so for years now.
That's before looking at the requirements for my employer's business for a light pickup truck, 1.5T capacity, would need 1000 mile range - and we are the people who literally keep you supplied with life's essentials (in our case, mostly water).
They are also really going to screw the poor. When I was fairly impoverished I invested £300 in a 17 year old diesel Skoda. Apart from being old and scruffy it was basically as good as a new car to use - it started, drove me were I wanted, managed to get the right side of 50mpg. Buying a old Nissan Leaf will probably mean a range that doesn't get you 20 miles. Which in turn will make the residuals really poor, which will do over new buyers too.0 -
The winner is Trump.Casino_Royale said:Any news from Iowa?
1 -
If we had a half-decent opposition, they would be asking why the PM is so scared of asking questions, why he is frit, what does he have to hide etc etc.Theuniondivvie said:The beast is evolving.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1224667113614344192?s=20
0 -
Like the rise of vinyl, will it all be hipsters driving them?contrarian said:
We could have a situation like Cuba where decrepit 1950s American cars are still being driven around because new models are not available. How great would that be?FrancisUrquhart said:
There will still be a market for 2nd hand cars come 2035. It is expected there will be another 10+ years of petrol cars being on the road.theProle said:
Except electric tech doesn't even nearly begin to work for some users. I put my usage patterns into an EV calculator recently, and it told me that there was nothing on the market that was suitable. If they were insisting on hybrid tech, that might be sensible, but pure EVs are so far off being able to match some ICE useage patterns it's madness.FrancisUrquhart said:
They won't be in 15 years. Nissan for instance is already busy moving over e.g. this years version one of their core models the Qashqai, made in Sunderland, will no longer be made with a diesel engine, they will offer hybrid. Give it 5-10 years and it will be electric only.contrarian said:
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
15 years is plenty of time to transition away from tradition engines, given that most producers have investing in doing so for years now.
That's before looking at the requirements for my employer's business for a light pickup truck, 1.5T capacity, would need 1000 mile range - and we are the people who literally keep you supplied with life's essentials (in our case, mostly water).
They are also really going to screw the poor. When I was fairly impoverished I invested £300 in a 17 year old diesel Skoda. Apart from being old and scruffy it was basically as good as a new car to use - it started, drove me were I wanted, managed to get the right side of 50mpg. Buying a old Nissan Leaf will probably mean a range that doesn't get you 20 miles. Which in turn will make the residuals really poor, which will do over new buyers too.0 -
I think the announced ban is the incentive for automobile manufacturers. It's just about 2 car generations which will give them enough time to invest in what they need to do.FrancisUrquhart said:
There will still be a market for 2nd hand cars come 2035. They are only banning sale of new cars. And that is another 15 years of technological development away. To put in perspective the iPhone has only been about 10 years and v1 was utter crap.theProle said:
Except electric tech doesn't even nearly begin to work for some users. I put my usage patterns into an EV calculator recently, and it told me that there was nothing on the market that was suitable. If they were insisting on hybrid tech, that might be sensible, but pure EVs are so far off being able to match some ICE useage patterns it's madness.FrancisUrquhart said:
They won't be in 15 years. Nissan for instance is already busy moving over e.g. this years version one of their core models the Qashqai, made in Sunderland, will no longer be made with a diesel engine, they will offer hybrid. Give it 5-10 years and it will be electric only.contrarian said:
Electric cars are still a tiny fraction of the car market. Tiny.FrancisUrquhart said:
I didn't realize Boris was going to ban electric cars...contrarian said:I wonder how the many thousands in the car industry in marginal seats are thinking today after Boris Johnson brought forward a ban on the products that pay their salaries.
We are totally decimating one of your major industries, but don;t worry a hugely expensive railway is coming in fifteen years time.
15 years is plenty of time to transition away from tradition engines, given that most producers have investing in doing so for years now.
That's before looking at the requirements for my employer's business for a light pickup truck, 1.5T capacity, would need 1000 mile range - and we are the people who literally keep you supplied with life's essentials (in our case, mostly water).
They are also really going to screw the poor. When I was fairly impoverished I invested £300 in a 17 year old diesel Skoda. Apart from being old and scruffy it was basically as good as a new car to use - it started, drove me were I wanted, managed to get the right side of 50mpg. Buying a old Nissan Leaf will probably mean a range that doesn't get you 20 miles. Which in turn will make the residuals really poor, which will do over new buyers too.
Furthermore, it is expected there will be another 10+ years of petrol cars being on the road.
Personally, I am not a big fan of outright bans, rather providing incentives.
And yep I suspect it will be 25+ years before we stop seeing petrol and diesel cars on the road.0 -
1 -
You said this:isam said:
Please don't patronise me with "pal" like that, can't see why you'd want to annoy me.TOPPING said:
You want some sort of "official control" for Muslims?isam said:
"a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar."TOPPING said:
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.
Yes, almost exactly the problem. That is why it was a disastrous policy to allow Islamic immigration to the extent we did.
A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair.
The only thing that will stop Islamic extremism is Islamic representation, and then we will see more right wing extremism, so its all bad
Not how we do it in the UK, pal.
Baclk to your point, I don't understand why you are placing those words in my mouth, they dont resemble anything I said nor think
"A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair."
If your own words annoy you that is not my fault0 -
Fair point. As I say, personally I favour nudge approaches to behavioural change, but giving car companies 15 more years to develop on a technology that already exists doesn't seem the most unreasonable approach.eek said:
I think the announced ban is the incentive for automobile manufacturers. It's just about 2 car generations which will give them enough time to invest in what they need to do.
And yep I suspect it will be 25+ years before we stop seeing petrol and diesel cars on the road.
Along with many other European countries stating bans will come in either in 2030 or 2040, the companies no there will be no real market for petrol / diesel powered cars in 15 years away.0 -
Naught but Republican propaganda! Who knew?!TheScreamingEagles said:
The winner is Trump.Casino_Royale said:Any news from Iowa?
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Presumably there will still be massive markets for petrol driven cars too. Are the Americans or Chinese banning them?FrancisUrquhart said:
Fair point. As I say, personally I favour nudge approaches to behavioural change, but giving car companies 15 more years to develop on a technology that already exists doesn't seem the most unreasonable approach.eek said:
I think the announced ban is the incentive for automobile manufacturers. It's just about 2 car generations which will give them enough time to invest in what they need to do.
And yep I suspect it will be 25+ years before we stop seeing petrol and diesel cars on the road.0 -
Somebody is going to have to destroy Johnson's horcrux.Theuniondivvie said:The beast is evolving.
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1224667113614344192?s=200 -
Chinese have said they will ban them, but haven't put a hard date. But they are already big into electric. In the big cities, increasingly all buses are.contrarian said:
Presumably there will still be massive markets for petrol driven cars too. Are the Americans or Chinese banning them?FrancisUrquhart said:
Fair point. As I say, personally I favour nudge approaches to behavioural change, but giving car companies 15 more years to develop on a technology that already exists doesn't seem the most unreasonable approach.eek said:
I think the announced ban is the incentive for automobile manufacturers. It's just about 2 car generations which will give them enough time to invest in what they need to do.
And yep I suspect it will be 25+ years before we stop seeing petrol and diesel cars on the road.0 -
Be great to be one of their citizens.......having a choice...contrarian said:
Presumably there will still be massive markets for petrol driven cars too. Are the Americans or Chinese banning them?FrancisUrquhart said:
Fair point. As I say, personally I favour nudge approaches to behavioural change, but giving car companies 15 more years to develop on a technology that already exists doesn't seem the most unreasonable approach.eek said:
I think the announced ban is the incentive for automobile manufacturers. It's just about 2 car generations which will give them enough time to invest in what they need to do.
And yep I suspect it will be 25+ years before we stop seeing petrol and diesel cars on the road.
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@Cyclefree
This will make you laugh, this is what gets you suspended from Citi.
A high-flying Citigroup bond trader has been suspended from the US investment bank following claims he stole food from the office canteen.
Paras Shah is accused of helping himself to food without paying at the company's European headquarters in London's Canary Wharf.
The 31-year-old reportedly left his post as Citi's head of high-yield bond trading for Europe, the Middle East and Africa over the alleged theft last month, according to the Financial Times.
He joined Citi just over two years ago from HSBC and his job involved trading junk bonds - risky company debt.
According to employee review website Glassdoor, the average salary for a credit trader is £183,740 - but Mr Shah is likely to have earned more given his senior role at Citi.
https://news.sky.com/story/citigroup-trader-suspended-for-stealing-food-from-staff-canteen-119259151 -
For real though, if Biden swept the rural caucuses that the media didn't have people at and wins overall (which I highly doubt) then the conspiracy theories will never end!0
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No, your word "pal" annoyed me.TOPPING said:
You said this:isam said:
Please don't patronise me with "pal" like that, can't see why you'd want to annoy me.TOPPING said:
You want some sort of "official control" for Muslims?isam said:
"a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar."TOPPING said:
Nope. British people are radicalised and attracted to foreign ideologies all the time. Yes, some immigration meant that some people were closer at hand. But a third generation Brit could sit in his bedroom, become radicalised against the wishes of his immediate family, and then go out, grab a knife and start shouting Allahu Akbar.isam said:I didn't say the culprit here was an immigrant, but he is here because of the policy I referenced, which I would say is responsible for every Islamic terrorist attack in 21st Century Britain
Plus what is the alternative to the policy if you are right? No immigration? Some kind of education programme which radicals will just play along with?
Sadly there is no alternative to where we are now.
Yes, almost exactly the problem. That is why it was a disastrous policy to allow Islamic immigration to the extent we did.
A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair.
The only thing that will stop Islamic extremism is Islamic representation, and then we will see more right wing extremism, so its all bad
Not how we do it in the UK, pal.
Baclk to your point, I don't understand why you are placing those words in my mouth, they dont resemble anything I said nor think
"A lot less immigration 40 odd years ago was the solution. I don't think there is one now really, the number of muslims will increase and, until they have some sort of official control, so will the radicals, so as @Cyclefree it is a counsel of despair."
If your own words annoy you that is not my fault
By official control, I meant the Muslims being in control not being controlled, apologies if that wasn't clear, although though I think it should have been; "they have some sort of official control" meant them having the control0 -
England will never win anything unless they learn how to bat on slow pitches.0