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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The voting polling’s bad for LAB but Corbyn’s ratings are even

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  • "Swinson has the the largest number, 33%, saying don’t know and that should get smaller during the campaign."

    Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about that ... millions of voters are likely to be confused, perplexed, angry even that a so-called democratic and liberal party have denied what it says on the can by promising to revoke Article 50, just like that, without even so much as a second referendum, offering a leave option which was voted for by a majority, totalling in excess of 17 million.
    Nothing very democratic or liberal about that, which probably largely explains the sharp decline in the party's fortunes over the past few weeks and why the likes of the spread-betting firms have chopped their prices for LD seats by around 25% from the high forties then to the mid thirties now ... shame really, it was looking so positive for them just a few weeks ago.

    Swinson lacks antennae.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,225
    edited November 2019
    ydoethur said:

    Great plan for free broadband for all.

    About time too.

    Why is this a good idea?

    Firstly, it won't be "free". We'll still pay, but through taxes rather than bills.

    Secondly, what about people who don't want the allegedly free package? What if they want a more basic service (as they don't stream videos etc - just use email) or do not want it at all?

    Thirdly, what do businesses do? The plan is presumably for households, but do businesses requiring dedicated, high capacity services also go via this nationalised business, and how does the pricing work?

    Fourthly, the cost high speed broadband to the final couple of percent in very rural, hard to reach areas is astronomical. Is it really worth it? To a large extent, living in those areas is a choice - the broadband isn't as good, but there are other benefits and a lot of people just don't care about video streaming.

    Fifthly, what evidence is there that the Government would run this more effectively than the private sector, that they'd be quicker at rolling out infrastructure or fixing faults?
    Having posted negatively about it....... quite early in the morning........ I was impressed by the analogy of water and sewage. There are places without mains water and without connections to the sewer system but they are very unusual.
    There are numerous places without connections to a sewage system, using a septic tank instead. Mains water I will give you.
    There are indeed 'numerous places without connections to a sewage system'. As a proportion of the whole though, they are few.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited November 2019

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    No, shit dad. I am a bloke with only three children, and I know hundreds of verses of the wheels on the bus. I also know how to use a mop and a microwave. I can even change a nappy. Real men know how to do all these things.
    If you look at the video he does know the words (although he is clearly thinking WTF am I doing this for).

    He doesn’t know / isn’t doing the hand movements
    I would imagine most people learn the words as children not as dads.

    Johnson quite clearly did NOT know the words.

    Any any parent will know those words if they ever do anything with their kids. Take them to parties, go swimming with them, those words are in play the whole time.
    I don’t know them. I’m obviously a malign father. But hey, hate is your metier. Like all good Labour supporters....cough.... Liberal Democrat’s.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    edited November 2019

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1195236741407313920?s=20

    So just to be clear about this for the blue luvvies on here this morning.

    4 by-election results in from last night. The Conservative share went down in all 4. They lost 3 of the 4 seats, two of them to huge swings to LibDems, and the SNP held the 4th comfortably.

    And you talk of landslides? Gents, this ain't no 1979.

    All bar Dunfermline had swings from Labour to Conservative, Dunfermline had a swing from SNP, Conservative and Labour to LD

  • In none of those seats last night was the consequence Jeremy Corbyn as your PM.....

    This is true. OTOH if we get to polling day and the polls are still showing Con up 8 points over Lab then the voters won't be worrying about Jeremy Corbyn PM for that election either, will they?
    They will go into the polling booth remembering that exit poll in 2017 and still think "oo-er...."
    Like most people I don't remember the exit poll but I do remember how it was a contest between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn and both of them lost, and that part was pretty great.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Foxy said:

    Looking strategically Labour is dominating this campaign, and Brexit is barely being mentioned, even on Brexit obsessed PB. We have had threads where the B word has barely been mentioned.

    When the Tories chuck a dead cat on the table, Labour chuck on a dead Lion. They are bonkers yet genius.

    I think LDs are doing well by looking the only grown ups in the room, and that is playing well particularly in Southern Remania.

    Anecdata of the day. Posh County-set lady in her sixties in my clinic yesterday, I booked a follow up appointment in the Spring. Her spontaneous response: " If we have an NHS after Brexit..."

    I think you're right that non brexit issues are dominating discussion and they will always exceed whatever the Tories promise to get the attention. But your assertion about the LDs looks unfounded. They might seem more grown up but they seem like they are being squeezed and have not had much prominence this week.
  • The polling dog that hasn't barked for over a week is the Lib Dem commissioned constituency polls. I don't think that they would be a declarable election expense as they aren't directly linked to campaigning. If do it is possible that they have started to come up results that they don't want voters to see.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,592

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1195236741407313920?s=20

    So just to be clear about this for the blue luvvies on here this morning.

    4 by-election results in from last night. The Conservative share went down in all 4. They lost 3 of the 4 seats, two of them to huge swings to LibDems, and the SNP held the 4th comfortably.

    And you talk of landslides? Gents, this ain't no 1979.


    The one constant in all this is the haemorrhaging of labour support across all four corners of the UK and it is going to be a very bad night for labour
    Sorry but I'm not even convinced that's true. I think the Labour vote will hold up in unexpected places.

    And I fully expect the Labour uptick in the polls to continue as birds come home to roost.

    Remember, that for Labour voters Brexit really isn't the biggest deal. We had all this blue working class guff in 2017.
    One element of the 2017 campaign that worked well for Labour was for candidates to be freed to campaign tacitly as anti-Corbyn Labour. I can see that working again.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,719
    Foxy said:

    Stocky said:

    On topic - if Labour lose big at the election, and working on the asumption that Corbyn steps down, I`ve been looking at the timing of his departure for betting purposes.

    The last Labour Party leader process worked as follows:

    - 13 May 2015 NEC sets out timetable
    - time for nominations
    - time for hustings
    - ballot papers produced and distributed
    - 1 month window to vote (to 10th September 2015)
    - results announced 12th September (I remember that day - I was painting the cobbledash of my parents` bungalow, listening to the results with my head in my hands).

    In summary, the process took 4 Months to elect a new leader. If he announced wish to step down on 13th December, and assuming a week for NEC to set up their meeting to decide timetable, this would take us to 20th April for a new leader to be installed.

    Corbyn, I argue, would remain leader until a replacement is elected. And Betfair rules state that an acting leader is still counted as the leader.

    I draw the following conclusions, but would appreciate your comments on my logic. All bets are with Betfair:

    - Corbyn departure date 10/19 - 12/19 - clear LAY at 3.55
    - April - June 2020 - BET 7.2
    - July 2020 or later - BET 5.4
    - 2020 or later - BET 1.36

    I would go for Sept 20, at the party conference. If Labour lose big enough that there is a Tory majority, then there is no urgency. If hung parliament, Jezza will count that as victory.
    I think that very much depends on how well they do with respect to the Lib Dems and the SNP. Labour put on 30 seats last time out. If they were to lose 20+ seats and the Labour/Lib Dem front reappears, a hung parliament may make Labour act because another election may not be far away.
  • malcolmg said:

    During the Labour leadership campaign, Corbyn received heavy support from Scottish Labour. Not many Blairites north of the border after the Jim Murphy rout!

    That Corbyn support has evaporated like snow off a dyke in April. They are all incandescent with rage at how he has handled the key IndyRef2 issue, and less-importantly Brexit. Not only has he been far too sympathetic to both, but he has flip-flopped badly. If a leader is going to make an unpopular decision, they must make it and then stick to their guns, not change the story every time they talk to a journalist.

    This wouldn’t matter so much if Richard Leonard was remotely competent. He isn’t.

    SLab are not in a happy place, and voters sense that.
    Hard to believe it but Leonard seems to be the worst SLAB leader yet, given the competition that is some achievement.
    Almost makes you nostalgic for the heady heights of Johann Lamont.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,225
    edited November 2019
    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1195236741407313920?s=20

    So just to be clear about this for the blue luvvies on here this morning.

    4 by-election results in from last night. The Conservative share went down in all 4. They lost 3 of the 4 seats, two of them to huge swings to LibDems, and the SNP held the 4th comfortably.

    And you talk of landslides? Gents, this ain't no 1979.

    All bar Dunfermline had swings from Labour to Conservative, Dunfermline had a swing from SNP, Conservative and Labour to LD
    Dunfermline isn't decided until second etc preference votes are counted. LD's could (admittedly unlikely) move up to send on the next count.

    Edit; realise all concluded. In the final round 2 votes between SNP and LD. Not good for Tories; maybe good for United Unionist.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,953
    edited November 2019
    kle4 said:

    Really? That's what we're going with? Boris is a duplicitous, bumbling toad of a man who we unfortunately have as PM, but that's what we should focus on?

    Besides, anyone attacked as not being of the people can always retort they are for the people.
    No. Rather than pretending he does know the words he should not have placed himself front and centre in sing-song. But because he is a duplicitous, bumbling toad of a man he did so.

    It speaks about his character, and does not say anything good about him.

    [Edit: I must admit I played that video just so I could have a sing-a-long. It takes me back to when the kinds were little.]
  • https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1195236741407313920?s=20

    So just to be clear about this for the blue luvvies on here this morning.

    4 by-election results in from last night. The Conservative share went down in all 4. They lost 3 of the 4 seats, two of them to huge swings to LibDems, and the SNP held the 4th comfortably.

    And you talk of landslides? Gents, this ain't no 1979.


    The one constant in all this is the haemorrhaging of labour support across all four corners of the UK and it is going to be a very bad night for labour
    Sorry but I'm not even convinced that's true. I think the Labour vote will hold up in unexpected places.

    And I fully expect the Labour uptick in the polls to continue as birds come home to roost.

    Remember, that for Labour voters Brexit really isn't the biggest deal. We had all this blue working class guff in 2017.
    The biggest threat to a conservative majority comes from the liberal democrats and not labour. Labour are facing wipeout in Scotland, lost seats in Wales and I cannot see them making any gains in England, indeed suffering considerables loses


  • In none of those seats last night was the consequence Jeremy Corbyn as your PM.....

    This is true. OTOH if we get to polling day and the polls are still showing Con up 8 points over Lab then the voters won't be worrying about Jeremy Corbyn PM for that election either, will they?
    They will go into the polling booth remembering that exit poll in 2017 and still think "oo-er...."
    Like most people I don't remember the exit poll but I do remember how it was a contest between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn and both of them lost, and that part was pretty great.
    I remember the exit poll because I am a political obsessive. But I doubt if more than 5% of the population have any recollection of it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,039
    edited November 2019

    "Swinson has the the largest number, 33%, saying don’t know and that should get smaller during the campaign."

    Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about that ... millions of voters are likely to be confused, perplexed, angry even that a so-called democratic and liberal party have denied what it says on the can by promising to revoke Article 50, just like that, without even so much as a second referendum, offering a leave option which was voted for by a majority, totalling in excess of 17 million.
    Nothing very democratic or liberal about that, which probably largely explains the sharp decline in the party's fortunes over the past few weeks and why the likes of the spread-betting firms have chopped their prices for LD seats by around 25% from the high forties then to the mid thirties now ... shame really, it was looking so positive for them just a few weeks ago.

    Swinson lacks antennae.
    Of course - she's not part of the hive mind.

    Though clearly she bugs you.
  • glwglw Posts: 7,775
    edited November 2019

    John McD wobbling on what will happen to Virgin fibre and others.

    On Radio 5 he said they want to nationalise Openreach and also BT technology and retail, all of the non-mobile bits of BT/EE it seems. He also said they wanted "treaties" with other fixed line broadband providers to integrate them into British Broadband, or he implied the goverment may take them over.

    It seems clear to me that whatever the manifesto may say McDonnell at least wants to completely nationalise fixed line broadband in the UK.

    I expect the next step would be to do the same to the mobile networks, as it makes little sense to treat them differently when they deliver the same services, and have the same issues with availability.
  • I don't think the lib Dems will do as well in the leave areas of the South West. I expect the Tories to win North Cornwall and North Devon for instance. St Ives with Andrew George a probable gain. I would not be surprised to see them lose North Norfolk with Norman Lamb syanding down. However you don't mention Finchley and Golders Green where I understand Luciana Berger is running a storming cmpaign.One or two other possibilities in London and Surrey, plus South Cambridgeshire etc, so 34 may be about right, just slight varaince frm your list

    Foxy said:

    Barnesian said:

    I think some of the Surrey near-marginals are in play. Outside flutters on Guildford and Woking. The latter went very yellow at the European Elections and I know people there who think it's turning LibDem.

    There may be some other tory seats that are vulnerable. I'm not convinced Esher & Walton is totally safe. Even Epsom & Ewell could see a big swing.

    I think the only question is which seats the LDs won’t take.
    My predictions of 34 LibDem seats

    Bermondsey and Old Southwark
    Cambridge
    Carshalton and Wallington
    Cheadle
    Cheltenham
    Eastbourne
    Hazel Grove
    Kingston and Surbiton
    Leeds North West
    Lewes
    North Cornwall
    North Devon
    North Norfolk
    Oxford West and Abingdon
    Portsmouth South
    Richmond Park
    Sheffield, Hallam
    Southport
    St Albans
    St Ives
    Sutton and Cheam
    Thornbury and Yate
    Twickenham
    Wells
    Westmorland and Lonsdale
    Winchester
    Montgomeryshire
    Ceredigion
    Brecon and Radnorshire
    plus five in Scotland

    Wimbledon would be a bonus.
    Those are not a bad start, but I would add South Cambs, and would expect some others across Wessex and the Thames Valley. There are other possibilities too such as Berwick.
    And whatever MM tries to convince you, Totnes is in play for Sarah Wollaston. There are lots of others that I think may go yellow. Guildford is a real possibility.

    You've also missed some London seats from the list. Islington South looks very good as a LibDem gain from Labour.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/12/emily-thornberry-risk-losing-seat-lib-dems-amid-fears-labour/
  • isamisam Posts: 38,523
    What is the Broadband deal? The state install it everywhere and it’s up to the consumer to rent it or not? Or is the rent free too?

    When BT was state owned, did the govt charge line rental?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    This daily Mail negative campaign is relentless, wonder if they will bring out the comments about Boris fitness from Gove, May et al.
    I would not be surprised to see a labour backing paper do just that, it seems a good idea.
    Given who buys those papers, they will be preaching to the converted rather than changing minds.
    Thats true but that's all papers, its about shoring up support.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    nunu2 said:

    John McD wobbling on what will happen to Virgin fibre and others.

    Of course he is.

    It's a bloody stupid idea.

    On the by elections from last night, it is clear the Tories will have to re-gain some remainers from the libdems or they can forget about a workable majority.
    That is not really true, especially with the Brexit Party no longer standing in Tory seats.

    The LDs are also taking more from Labour on average than the Tories so under FPTP that means more Tory gains from Labour even if they lose a few more to the LDs
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,887
    edited November 2019

    The polling dog that hasn't barked for over a week is the Lib Dem commissioned constituency polls. I don't think that they would be a declarable election expense as they aren't directly linked to campaigning. If do it is possible that they have started to come up results that they don't want voters to see.

    Well you would be wrong.

    Constituency polling is a declarable expense.

    The cost of such polls is a multiple of constituency spending limits.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    This daily Mail negative campaign is relentless, wonder if they will bring out the comments about Boris fitness from Gove, May et al.
    I would not be surprised to see a labour backing paper do just that, it seems a good idea.
    I hate the way journalists undermine themselves with such extreme partisan, almost cartoonish stuff.
    I do too, even in partisan media I prefer an attempt to at least appear professional and objective, it makes things more persuasive. But paper headlines are what they are so may as well go for it.
  • IanB2 said:

    Not being technological, I don't really understand how BT purports to deliver me superfast fibre broadband along the very old telephone cable attached to the side of my house?

    Distance is the key. If they run fibre to the cabinet, and teh distance from the cabinet to your wall socket is short enough then the signal will not degrade sufficiently in the copper wire.

    You might get (say) 40Mb on your download whereas if they ran fibre to your house you might get 100Mb or more, but for most people most of the time, anything north of 10Mb lets them watch Netflix or Youtube or do whatever they want on the net.
  • matt said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    No, shit dad. I am a bloke with only three children, and I know hundreds of verses of the wheels on the bus. I also know how to use a mop and a microwave. I can even change a nappy. Real men know how to do all these things.
    If you look at the video he does know the words (although he is clearly thinking WTF am I doing this for).

    He doesn’t know / isn’t doing the hand movements
    I would imagine most people learn the words as children not as dads.

    Johnson quite clearly did NOT know the words.

    Any any parent will know those words if they ever do anything with their kids. Take them to parties, go swimming with them, those words are in play the whole time.
    I don’t know them. I’m obviously a malign father. But hey, hate is your metier. Like all good Labour supporters....cough.... Liberal Democrat’s.
    How can anyone with kids not know the words? They're not particularly challenging. And you basically make up verses as the song goes on, only the first verse is really canon. And actually there are variations on the first verse, I always knew the last line as "all day long" but in America they sing "all through the town" (no doubt reflecting the absence of reliable 24 hour public transport in many US cities).
  • So while we spend billions on running cables everywhere this is happening: https://google.co.uk/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/fast-affordable-internet-from-the-sky-is-almost-here/

    For Earth-bound users, SpaceX predicts, "Once fully optimized through the Final Deployment, the system will be able to provide high bandwidth (up to 1Gbps per user), low-latency broadband services for consumers and businesses in the US and globally.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308
    edited November 2019
    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc
  • Boris live on breakfast tv

    Boris also live on the interwebs and wireless at 9am
    Prime Minister Boris Johnson will take questions from the public at 09:00 GMT in a special programme on 5 Live, the BBC News Channel and online
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50428848
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,540
    Encouraging to see remain voters pulling behind the LibDems in most of last night's batch of by-elections. Tactical voting could be very significant in allowing the LDs to turn votes into seats.

  • Labour are making all the running in this election campaign.

    By driving the NHS out of the news.

    Thanks, Labour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited November 2019

    kle4 said:

    Really? That's what we're going with? Boris is a duplicitous, bumbling toad of a man who we unfortunately have as PM, but that's what we should focus on?

    Besides, anyone attacked as not being of the people can always retort they are for the people.
    No. Rather than pretending he does know the words he should not have placed himself front and centre in sing-song. But because he is a duplicitous, bumbling toad of a man he did so.

    It speaks about his character, and does not say anything good about him.

    [Edit: I must admit I played that video just so I could have a sing-a-long. It takes me back to when the kinds were little.]
    I think that's really weak. We have enough character speaking moments about him for things that matter to bother drawing deep conclusions from him stumbling along to a kids song.

    Unpopular opinion, but I would not care if he was/is a crap father (and people have specifically referenced that, not merely that pretending to know the words speaks ill) or a crap husband if I thought politically he knew what he was doing and could be trusted, which I dont.

    We are at the point with Boris, Corbyn and even Swinson where people really overdo the attacks, even though theres plenty of good ways to attack them, particularly BoJo and Jezza.
  • So while we spend billions on running cables everywhere this is happening: https://google.co.uk/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/fast-affordable-internet-from-the-sky-is-almost-here/

    For Earth-bound users, SpaceX predicts, "Once fully optimized through the Final Deployment, the system will be able to provide high bandwidth (up to 1Gbps per user), low-latency broadband services for consumers and businesses in the US and globally.

    So we will have Skynet, probably run by various AIs. When do the Terminators turn up and where is John Connor when you need him?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,364

    The polling dog that hasn't barked for over a week is the Lib Dem commissioned constituency polls. I don't think that they would be a declarable election expense as they aren't directly linked to campaigning. If do it is possible that they have started to come up results that they don't want voters to see.

    Plenty of organisations commission polls which don't get published. I expect the Conservative and Labour parties do private polling which we don't see.

    Why should polls commissioned by the Liberal Democrats have to be published? Why would the Liberal Democrats, just like any other organisation, release into the public domain information which would be disadvantageous?

    If a private Conservative Party poll showed a poor result, should that be published as well?

  • matt said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    No, shit dad. I am a bloke with only three children, and I know hundreds of verses of the wheels on the bus. I also know how to use a mop and a microwave. I can even change a nappy. Real men know how to do all these things.
    If you look at the video he does know the words (although he is clearly thinking WTF am I doing this for).

    He doesn’t know / isn’t doing the hand movements
    I would imagine most people learn the words as children not as dads.

    Johnson quite clearly did NOT know the words.

    Any any parent will know those words if they ever do anything with their kids. Take them to parties, go swimming with them, those words are in play the whole time.
    I don’t know them. I’m obviously a malign father. But hey, hate is your metier. Like all good Labour supporters....cough.... Liberal Democrat’s.
    How can anyone with kids not know the words? They're not particularly challenging. And you basically make up verses as the song goes on, only the first verse is really canon. And actually there are variations on the first verse, I always knew the last line as "all day long" but in America they sing "all through the town" (no doubt reflecting the absence of reliable 24 hour public transport in many US cities).
    Any idea why CCHQ's red-hot spin team did not pre-arrange a song to which Boris does know the words, and is it too cynical to suggest this was intentional (like last time) to ensure web searches for Boris + bus find harmless trivia?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,269
    edited November 2019

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,523
    edited November 2019

    matt said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    No, shit dad. I am a bloke with only three children, and I know hundreds of verses of the wheels on the bus. I also know how to use a mop and a microwave. I can even change a nappy. Real men know how to do all these things.
    If you look at the video he does know the words (although he is clearly thinking WTF am I doing this for).

    He doesn’t know / isn’t doing the hand movements
    I would imagine most people learn the words as children not as dads.

    Johnson quite clearly did NOT know the words.

    Any any parent will know those words if they ever do anything with their kids. Take them to parties, go swimming with them, those words are in play the whole time.
    I don’t know them. I’m obviously a malign father. But hey, hate is your metier. Like all good Labour supporters....cough.... Liberal Democrat’s.
    How can anyone with kids not know the words? They're not particularly challenging. And you basically make up verses as the song goes on, only the first verse is really canon. And actually there are variations on the first verse, I always knew the last line as "all day long" but in America they sing "all through the town" (no doubt reflecting the absence of reliable 24 hour public transport in many US cities).
    Any idea why CCHQ's red-hot spin team did not pre-arrange a song to which Boris does know the words, and is it too cynical to suggest this was intentional (like last time) to ensure web searches for Boris + bus find harmless trivia?
    On the day they launch the bus? The day after the cryptic ads?? Surely not?!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,364

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc

    Obviously, he's not convincing you but your colours are well and truly nailed to the Boris Johnson mast. I have to say "free Broadband" is an attractive slogan and we pay far too much for it and are ripped off by BT and all the other providers.

    Why is calling for the abolition of the licence fee a reasonable policy but calling for price reductions or even the provision of free broadband "unconvincing"?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited November 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Encouraging to see remain voters pulling behind the LibDems in most of last night's batch of by-elections. Tactical voting could be very significant in allowing the LDs to turn votes into seats.

    ..

  • Labour are making all the running in this election campaign.

    By driving the NHS out of the news.

    Thanks, Labour.
    Yes, you do wonder whether Vlad's men in Labour are sabotaging the campaign. Otoh, families and friends of patients will not need the newspapers to tell them how long they had to wait in A&E, for cancer treatment or whatever ails them. Both sides seem to forget that statistics are not just statistics.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526
    IanB2 said:

    Encouraging to see remain voters pulling behind the LibDems in most of last night's batch of by-elections. Tactical voting could be very significant in allowing the LDs to turn votes into seats.

    Or - they were local elections about local pot-holes.....
  • HYUFD said:
    If that folows through, Labour are in dockside hooker territory
  • McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    Its certainly an issue.
  • stodge said:

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc

    Obviously, he's not convincing you but your colours are well and truly nailed to the Boris Johnson mast. I have to say "free Broadband" is an attractive slogan and we pay far too much for it and are ripped off by BT and all the other providers.

    Why is calling for the abolition of the licence fee a reasonable policy but calling for price reductions or even the provision of free broadband "unconvincing"?
    A state run broadband service by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster and is being attacked across the media as ill thought through and unworkable

  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,269
    stodge said:

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc

    Obviously, he's not convincing you but your colours are well and truly nailed to the Boris Johnson mast. I have to say "free Broadband" is an attractive slogan and we pay far too much for it and are ripped off by BT and all the other providers.

    Why is calling for the abolition of the licence fee a reasonable policy but calling for price reductions or even the provision of free broadband "unconvincing"?
    Free broadband isn’t the issue. It’s the forced nationalisation of private assets; the removal of choice and the government control of the internet which is the problem.
  • McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    I think this is a load of bollocks. If Labour were really planning to implement a Stasi state they would have no problem forcing private companies to comply with their edicts. We had the same scare stories in 1945 when Churchill said Atlee wanted to create a British Gestapo. Instead we got the NHS. And to be fair to Corbyn he has long backed individual liberty, eg of Irish people wrongly locked up by a corrupt justice system or of black South Africans, often in the face of significant opposition from the Right. If you want to argue against this policy you'd probably be on firmer ground questioning the efficiency of a state run monopoly than letting your darkest fantasies run away with you.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,523
    stodge said:

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc

    Obviously, he's not convincing you but your colours are well and truly nailed to the Boris Johnson mast. I have to say "free Broadband" is an attractive slogan and we pay far too much for it and are ripped off by BT and all the other providers.

    Why is calling for the abolition of the licence fee a reasonable policy but calling for price reductions or even the provision of free broadband "unconvincing"?
    Why not subsidise gas, water and electricity bills up to a certain level dependent on family size instead? They are true essentials I would have thought. Having free broadband in Libraries is good enough I’d say. Or they could use one of the empty shops In the high street as a free broadband centre.
  • McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    Labour to implement the Tories' p0rn filter? Labour to force the Tories' weak and breakable encryption? Thanks heavens the Tories believe in civil liberties (except the Tories actually in government).
  • glwglw Posts: 7,775

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    Its certainly an issue.
    Put aside all the issues about state control, jobs and the cost. The mere fact Labour are thinking of nationalising the broadband infrastructure, and perhaps mobile in the future, is likely to curtail investment right now. In the long term it would result in a zero competition service in the UK, as how can you compete with "free"?

  • Labour are making all the running in this election campaign.

    By driving the NHS out of the news.

    Thanks, Labour.
    #notforsale
  • IanB2 said:

    Encouraging to see remain voters pulling behind the LibDems in most of last night's batch of by-elections. Tactical voting could be very significant in allowing the LDs to turn votes into seats.

    The polling dog that hasn't barked for over a week is the Lib Dem commissioned constituency polls. I don't think that they would be a declarable election expense as they aren't directly linked to campaigning. If do it is possible that they have started to come up results that they don't want voters to see.

    Well you would be wrong.

    Constituency polling is a declarable expense.

    The cost of such polls is a multiple of constituency spending limits.
    I'm sure that if Don Cummings was working for the LDs he'd find a way of commissioning them without breaking the rules.
  • glw said:

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    Its certainly an issue.
    Put aside all the issues about state control, jobs and the cost. The mere fact Labour are thinking of nationalising the broadband infrastructure, and perhaps mobile in the future, is likely to curtail investment right now. In the long term it would result in a zero competition service in the UK, as how can you compete with "free"?
    Eton seems to manage.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,062
    "Latest voting intention for those who voted Labour in 2017:

    Labour 65%
    Lib Dem 14%
    Conservative 9%
    Green 5%#Brexit Party 4%

    YouGov/Sky/The Times 11-12 Nov#GE2019"

    If this proves to be correct the LDs will not do as well as many think.
  • IanB2 said:

    Encouraging to see remain voters pulling behind the LibDems in most of last night's batch of by-elections. Tactical voting could be very significant in allowing the LDs to turn votes into seats.

    The polling dog that hasn't barked for over a week is the Lib Dem commissioned constituency polls. I don't think that they would be a declarable election expense as they aren't directly linked to campaigning. If do it is possible that they have started to come up results that they don't want voters to see.

    Well you would be wrong.

    Constituency polling is a declarable expense.

    The cost of such polls is a multiple of constituency spending limits.
    I'm sure that if Don Cummings was working for the LDs he'd find a way of commissioning them without breaking the rules.
    History suggests breaking the rules anyway and worry about the relatively minor consequences later.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,945

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1195236741407313920?s=20

    So just to be clear about this for the blue luvvies on here this morning.

    4 by-election results in from last night. The Conservative share went down in all 4. They lost 3 of the 4 seats, two of them to huge swings to LibDems, and the SNP held the 4th comfortably.

    And you talk of landslides? Gents, this ain't no 1979.

    This one has cautioned against talk of landslides and I know only one poster on here who constantly refers to a landslide result

    This election could result in a hung parliament upto a majority conservative adminstration.

    The one constant in all this is the haemorrhaging of labour support across all four corners of the UK and it is going to be a very bad night for labour
    Just remember there are 16,500,000 Diehard Remainers out there. The vast majority coulrophobic and the more he fluffs up his hair and smirks the more coulrophobic they become.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,364
    isam said:

    Why not subsidise gas, water and electricity bills up to a certain level dependent on family size instead? They are true essentials I would have thought. Having free broadband in Libraries is good enough I’d say. Or they could use one of the empty shops In the high street as a free broadband centre.

    That's not a bad idea at all. Once can argue utility companies have made quite enough from the public yet clearly they can't or won't spend enough on infrastructure to prevent water leaks or provide decent provision in more remote areas.

    Library provision in general is one of those sensitive topics in the local Government arena. The provision of a library for books is obsolete - most libraries are used by people who don't have or can't afford Internet at home and can use it there.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,449
    Could be a popular policy with Virgin customers - provided it includes show trials followed by life imprisonment for the people in charge.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,372

    matt said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    No, shit dad. I am a bloke with only three children, and I know hundreds of verses of the wheels on the bus. I also know how to use a mop and a microwave. I can even change a nappy. Real men know how to do all these things.
    If you look at the video he does know the words (although he is clearly thinking WTF am I doing this for).

    He doesn’t know / isn’t doing the hand movements
    I would imagine most people learn the words as children not as dads.

    Johnson quite clearly did NOT know the words.

    Any any parent will know those words if they ever do anything with their kids. Take them to parties, go swimming with them, those words are in play the whole time.
    I don’t know them. I’m obviously a malign father. But hey, hate is your metier. Like all good Labour supporters....cough.... Liberal Democrat’s.
    How can anyone with kids not know the words? They're not particularly challenging. And you basically make up verses as the song goes on, only the first verse is really canon. And actually there are variations on the first verse, I always knew the last line as "all day long" but in America they sing "all through the town" (no doubt reflecting the absence of reliable 24 hour public transport in many US cities).
    Any idea why CCHQ's red-hot spin team did not pre-arrange a song to which Boris does know the words, and is it too cynical to suggest this was intentional (like last time) to ensure web searches for Boris + bus find harmless trivia?
    Do these children not know the Eton Boating Song? No wonder our society is in meltdown. What do they teach them in playgroup these days?

  • 148grss148grss Posts: 1,089
    Stocky said:

    "Latest voting intention for those who voted Labour in 2017:

    Labour 65%
    Lib Dem 14%
    Conservative 9%
    Green 5%#Brexit Party 4%

    YouGov/Sky/The Times 11-12 Nov#GE2019"

    If this proves to be correct the LDs will not do as well as many think.

    Do we have the Con figures?
  • glwglw Posts: 7,775

    glw said:

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    Its certainly an issue.
    Put aside all the issues about state control, jobs and the cost. The mere fact Labour are thinking of nationalising the broadband infrastructure, and perhaps mobile in the future, is likely to curtail investment right now. In the long term it would result in a zero competition service in the UK, as how can you compete with "free"?
    Eton seems to manage.
    Yes the wealthy always have options, but for the vast majority of the market it would kill competition.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,945
    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.

    Free broadband for all if you vote Labour or if you vote Tory they will reopen open the Penmaenmawr to Llanfairfechan railway . Tough choice
  • HYUFD said:
    If that folows through, Labour are in dockside hooker territory
    65% is up on 61% in the previous YouGov poll, and 57% in the one before that. If it were to carry on increasing at a linear rate it would be 95% by polling day - Labour would be happy with that!
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,449

    stodge said:

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc

    Obviously, he's not convincing you but your colours are well and truly nailed to the Boris Johnson mast. I have to say "free Broadband" is an attractive slogan and we pay far too much for it and are ripped off by BT and all the other providers.

    Why is calling for the abolition of the licence fee a reasonable policy but calling for price reductions or even the provision of free broadband "unconvincing"?
    A state run broadband service by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster and is being attacked across the media as ill thought through and unworkable

    "Media Attacks Labour Party" SHOCK!
  • McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    Labour to implement the Tories' p0rn filter? Labour to force the Tories' weak and breakable encryption? Thanks heavens the Tories believe in civil liberties (except the Tories actually in government).
    Stupid answer.

    Just because the Tories have authoritarian tendencies - and thankfully are also generally inept at it - doesn't mean we should therefore support Labour with their far more authoritarian plans who might actually turn out to be rather competent at controlling every aspect of our lives.
  • malcolmg said:

    During the Labour leadership campaign, Corbyn received heavy support from Scottish Labour. Not many Blairites north of the border after the Jim Murphy rout!

    That Corbyn support has evaporated like snow off a dyke in April. They are all incandescent with rage at how he has handled the key IndyRef2 issue, and less-importantly Brexit. Not only has he been far too sympathetic to both, but he has flip-flopped badly. If a leader is going to make an unpopular decision, they must make it and then stick to their guns, not change the story every time they talk to a journalist.

    This wouldn’t matter so much if Richard Leonard was remotely competent. He isn’t.

    SLab are not in a happy place, and voters sense that.
    Hard to believe it but Leonard seems to be the worst SLAB leader yet, given the competition that is some achievement.
    Almost makes you nostalgic for the heady heights of Johann Lamont.
    Come back Iain Gray!
  • glwglw Posts: 7,775
    He really couldn't have been clearer on Radio 5, he wants all UK fixed line broadband either integrated or owned by British Broadband.
  • Roger said:

    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.

    Free broadband for all if you vote Labour or if you vote Tory they will reopen open the Penmaenmawr to Llanfairfechan railway . Tough choice
    Opening railway lines increases choice and provision. Nationalising Broadband destroys choice and provision. It is a very easy message to sell - do you want the Government controlling your internet access just like in China?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,364


    A state run broadband service by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster and is being attacked across the media as ill thought through and unworkable

    While I wouldn't trust Corbyn and McDonnell to run a bath, I'm less dismissive of some of the concept. We have a State run television service and have had for decades and the telephone service was also run by the State so had the GPO not been broken up and privatised we would have a "State" Broadband service in competition with other providers.

    Where I am with Labour is it would be useful to have a fall-back provision option from the State when the private sector decides it cannot provide the service - Councils subsidise bus services in rural areas because the private operators can't or won't run them at a loss.

    In 2019, we should perhaps be arguing that access to information is as much a right as access to medical care via a GP or access to law enforcement via the Police. The latter two are paid out of general taxation so we should be looking to provide a free basic broadband service and ensure we don't leave sections of the population deprived of what I consider an essential service.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    edited November 2019
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Great plan for free broadband for all.

    About time too.

    It is just bollox, Labour would cock it up and we would end up back to the 70's when you waited up to a year just to get a shared telephone line. How do you think those donkeys will get 20 billion out of Google, facebook, etc. F***ing nutters.
    Your party intends to put them in office though
    Charles, Don't talk rubbish, SNP want to put themselves in charge of Scotland, they cannot change what England votes for. They may have some small arrangement if a referendum is committed but it will be loose and for sure they do not want a Labour government , they want an INDEPENDENT Scotland.
    PS: They are not my party, I lend them my vote as I want independence and they are the only Scottish party there is no other choice.
  • Chris said:

    stodge said:

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc

    Obviously, he's not convincing you but your colours are well and truly nailed to the Boris Johnson mast. I have to say "free Broadband" is an attractive slogan and we pay far too much for it and are ripped off by BT and all the other providers.

    Why is calling for the abolition of the licence fee a reasonable policy but calling for price reductions or even the provision of free broadband "unconvincing"?
    A state run broadband service by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster and is being attacked across the media as ill thought through and unworkable

    "Media Attacks Labour Party" SHOCK!
    Yes, tell me what the Daily Mail thinks, I'm sure they have some even-handed coverage of the issue.
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    During the Labour leadership campaign, Corbyn received heavy support from Scottish Labour. Not many Blairites north of the border after the Jim Murphy rout!

    That Corbyn support has evaporated like snow off a dyke in April. They are all incandescent with rage at how he has handled the key IndyRef2 issue, and less-importantly Brexit. Not only has he been far too sympathetic to both, but he has flip-flopped badly. If a leader is going to make an unpopular decision, they must make it and then stick to their guns, not change the story every time they talk to a journalist.

    This wouldn’t matter so much if Richard Leonard was remotely competent. He isn’t.

    SLab are not in a happy place, and voters sense that.
    Hard to believe it but Leonard seems to be the worst SLAB leader yet, given the competition that is some achievement.
    Ah, I remember the good ol' days when the SNP were fearful about going too hard on Wendy Alexander, because if she was removed and replaced by somebody competent they might have a problem...
    Wendy was a superstar compared with the grim successors.

    Brown was furious, but her infamous “Bring It On” was very astute: she could have crippled the SNP for... oh... I dunno... a generation.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,817
    stodge said:


    A state run broadband service by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster and is being attacked across the media as ill thought through and unworkable

    While I wouldn't trust Corbyn and McDonnell to run a bath, I'm less dismissive of some of the concept. We have a State run television service and have had for decades and the telephone service was also run by the State so had the GPO not been broken up and privatised we would have a "State" Broadband service in competition with other providers.

    Where I am with Labour is it would be useful to have a fall-back provision option from the State when the private sector decides it cannot provide the service - Councils subsidise bus services in rural areas because the private operators can't or won't run them at a loss.

    In 2019, we should perhaps be arguing that access to information is as much a right as access to medical care via a GP or access to law enforcement via the Police. The latter two are paid out of general taxation so we should be looking to provide a free basic broadband service and ensure we don't leave sections of the population deprived of what I consider an essential service.
    The thing is it's the wrong solution to the problem. The world is moving to mobile so we really shouldn't be looking at cabled systems a better plan would be ensuring there are enough masts to cover the rest of the country with 4/5g.
  • Roger said:

    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.

    Free broadband for all if you vote Labour or if you vote Tory they will reopen open the Penmaenmawr to Llanfairfechan railway . Tough choice
    Opening railway lines increases choice and provision. Nationalising Broadband destroys choice and provision. It is a very easy message to sell - do you want the Government controlling your internet access just like in China?
    The train policy is a good one. The Tories have come a long way from Thatcher and her pathological hatred of trains (surely indisputable evidence that she was a wrong 'un).
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Roger said:

    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.

    Free broadband for all if you vote Labour or if you vote Tory they will reopen open the Penmaenmawr to Llanfairfechan railway . Tough choice
    I have a feeling that the Tory rail policy will be more popular and better received than the Labour broadband policy. Do you know why? Because its plausible and less of a pie in the sky desperate attempt to bribe voters.

    Do voters in marginal seats really think Corbyn will be able to nationalise BT and Virgin? do they think it will only cost £20 billion? Do they think wealthy businesses need the state to pay for their broadband? I'm not so sure...
  • McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    I thought that there were only about half a dozen points at which Britain connected to the wider internet?

    I don't think it would take any more than the police/military willing to follow orders to shut it down as it is so I don't see that a nationalisation would make any practical difference.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    rcs1000 said:

    alex. said:

    Great plan for free broadband for all.

    About time too.

    Free computers as well? After all, the former is pretty useless without the latter...
    I know you're being sarcastic but yeah, throw in a cheapo android tablet for any house that doesn't already have a computer or smartphone, it won't cost much and you'll save money from being able to deliver more government services purely online.
    Cheap android tablets: why do you really hate your fellow countrymen?
    That is a Tory for you, damn the poor let them have cheap android tablets, whilst shouting pass me one of my ipads Jeeves.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    IanB2 said:

    Not being technological, I don't really understand how BT purports to deliver me superfast fibre broadband along the very old telephone cable attached to the side of my house?

    Clue, they won't.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,449

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    He is also banking on a unilateral tax on amazon, google etc

    A unilateral tax? You mean it will just be imposed? They won't have any choice about whether to pay it or not?

    That is a really terrifying innovation.

  • isam said:

    Why not subsidise gas, water and electricity bills up to a certain level dependent on family size instead? They are true essentials I would have thought. Having free broadband in Libraries is good enough I’d say. Or they could use one of the empty shops In the high street as a free broadband centre.

    Perhaps you do not realise that the internet has become a vital part of the infrastructure for many countries. It really does deserve to be classed as an essential utility - not for Netflix and Youtube - but because many businesses run services over the internet that, in years gone by, were either incredibly expensive or of notable worse quality.

    I remember working with one High St retailer where every shop had one IDSN line installed just to get stock updates from the main warehouse. Each update took several minutes and we had to run an overnight, multithreaded process because 1,000 stores needing 15 minutes each was 15,000 minutes to be squeezed in to an overnight job.

    The bills for the line rental alone were eye-watering.....
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,382
    Foxy said:

    Stocky said:

    On topic - if Labour lose big at the election, and working on the asumption that Corbyn steps down, I`ve been looking at the timing of his departure for betting purposes.

    The last Labour Party leader process worked as follows:

    - 13 May 2015 NEC sets out timetable
    - time for nominations
    - time for hustings
    - ballot papers produced and distributed
    - 1 month window to vote (to 10th September 2015)
    - results announced 12th September (I remember that day - I was painting the cobbledash of my parents` bungalow, listening to the results with my head in my hands).

    In summary, the process took 4 Months to elect a new leader. If he announced wish to step down on 13th December, and assuming a week for NEC to set up their meeting to decide timetable, this would take us to 20th April for a new leader to be installed.

    Corbyn, I argue, would remain leader until a replacement is elected. And Betfair rules state that an acting leader is still counted as the leader.

    I draw the following conclusions, but would appreciate your comments on my logic. All bets are with Betfair:

    - Corbyn departure date 10/19 - 12/19 - clear LAY at 3.55
    - April - June 2020 - BET 7.2
    - July 2020 or later - BET 5.4
    - 2020 or later - BET 1.36

    I would go for Sept 20, at the party conference. If Labour lose big enough that there is a Tory majority, then there is no urgency. If hung parliament, Jezza will count that as victory.
    The only counter to that is that if Corbyn is able to somehow nominate a temporary leader in his place (and as Watson is absent there is no deputy right now), he would select one of his disciples from the way-out there left. Then he may stand down to give his chosen successor the advantage of campaigning from the position of leader.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    edited November 2019

    IanB2 said:

    Encouraging to see remain voters pulling behind the LibDems in most of last night's batch of by-elections. Tactical voting could be very significant in allowing the LDs to turn votes into seats.

    Or - they were local elections about local pot-holes.....
    In Torbay the Tories gained a LD seat, in Tunbridge Wells the Tories lost a seat to the LDs.

    LDs now more a southeast than southwest party
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,449
    Brom said:

    Roger said:

    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.

    Free broadband for all if you vote Labour or if you vote Tory they will reopen open the Penmaenmawr to Llanfairfechan railway . Tough choice
    I have a feeling that the Tory rail policy will be more popular and better received than the Labour broadband policy. Do you know why? Because its plausible and less of a pie in the sky desperate attempt to bribe voters.
    Another irregular verb:
    I offer a plausible and popular improvement in public services.
    You desperately attempt to bribe the voters with pie in the sky.
    They try to control the Internet.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,523

    isam said:

    Why not subsidise gas, water and electricity bills up to a certain level dependent on family size instead? They are true essentials I would have thought. Having free broadband in Libraries is good enough I’d say. Or they could use one of the empty shops In the high street as a free broadband centre.

    Perhaps you do not realise that the internet has become a vital part of the infrastructure for many countries. It really does deserve to be classed as an essential utility - not for Netflix and Youtube - but because many businesses run services over the internet that, in years gone by, were either incredibly expensive or of notable worse quality.

    I remember working with one High St retailer where every shop had one IDSN line installed just to get stock updates from the main warehouse. Each update took several minutes and we had to run an overnight, multithreaded process because 1,000 stores needing 15 minutes each was 15,000 minutes to be squeezed in to an overnight job.

    The bills for the line rental alone were eye-watering.....
    Blimey! I thought the idea was to help out poor people, not subsidise corporate business
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    Ishmael_Z said:

    alex. said:

    Charles said:

    No, shit dad. I am a bloke with only three children, and I know hundreds of verses of the wheels on the bus. I also know how to use a mop and a microwave. I can even change a nappy. Real men know how to do all these things.
    If you look at the video he does know the words (although he is clearly thinking WTF am I doing this for).

    He doesn’t know / isn’t doing the hand movements
    I would imagine most people learn the words as children not as dads.

    Nope. It is from the USA in the 1930s, but it hadn't reached these shores during my and Boris's childhood.
    I learnt it as a Grandad, not around as a child or when my daughter was young
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566
    edited November 2019

    Roger said:

    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.

    Free broadband for all if you vote Labour or if you vote Tory they will reopen open the Penmaenmawr to Llanfairfechan railway . Tough choice
    Opening railway lines increases choice and provision. Nationalising Broadband destroys choice and provision. It is a very easy message to sell - do you want the Government controlling your internet access just like in China?
    The train policy is a good one. The Tories have come a long way from Thatcher and her pathological hatred of trains (surely indisputable evidence that she was a wrong 'un).
    You mean the Thatcher who refused to privatise trains as she said it would be "a privitisation too far"?

    I think you will find it was her idiotic successor Major who was responsible for that one.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    During the Labour leadership campaign, Corbyn received heavy support from Scottish Labour. Not many Blairites north of the border after the Jim Murphy rout!

    That Corbyn support has evaporated like snow off a dyke in April. They are all incandescent with rage at how he has handled the key IndyRef2 issue, and less-importantly Brexit. Not only has he been far too sympathetic to both, but he has flip-flopped badly. If a leader is going to make an unpopular decision, they must make it and then stick to their guns, not change the story every time they talk to a journalist.

    This wouldn’t matter so much if Richard Leonard was remotely competent. He isn’t.

    SLab are not in a happy place, and voters sense that.
    Hard to believe it but Leonard seems to be the worst SLAB leader yet, given the competition that is some achievement.
    Ah, I remember the good ol' days when the SNP were fearful about going too hard on Wendy Alexander, because if she was removed and replaced by somebody competent they might have a problem...
    Wendy was a superstar compared with the grim successors.

    Brown was furious, but her infamous “Bring It On” was very astute: she could have crippled the SNP for... oh... I dunno... a generation.
    "Bring it on" was the start of SLab's troubles.

    Brown's fury started the domino effect of rapid fire leader replacements in Scotland.

    As you say it was exactly the right call. A early IndyRef would have crushed the SNP.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,945
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    This daily Mail negative campaign is relentless, wonder if they will bring out the comments about Boris fitness from Gove, May et al.
    I would not be surprised to see a labour backing paper do just that, it seems a good idea.
    It doesn't work unless they're preaching to the choir. Relentless stories by newspapers are more likely to turn you off the newspaper. I'd be curious to see what's happened to the Telegraph readership in the last few months.
  • If nothing else, this broadband policy is ballsy and noticeable enough to bring into sharp focus the question of whether Britain is ready/keen/unwilling to go back to wide-ranging state ownership of key industries.

    I'm genuinely not sure whether the country is going to go "ooh.. free porn* and fair tax for Amazon" or "wtf? This is totally insane. Why not do Tesco while you're at it?" (*OK.. and remote access to work.. economic benefit.. unleash the content industry etc)

    I suspect the truth is that like other major questions of the age, there'll be 20 per cent of each, and 60 per cent in the middle who really DGAF as long as iPlayer still works.

    Broadband doesn't feel like A Thing To Be Fixed as urgently as, say, rail from where I'm sitting (and I use broadband every day - a mile from the nearest rural phone exchange - but trains 3 or 4 times a year). And the undoubted remaining shortcomings in infrastructure could be far more easily remedied by (eg) chucking a couple of billion more at rural not-spots.

    Legions of the Not Bothereds will not notice a benefit and will be susceptible to the Daily Mail's claims that it's all a waste of money, a return to British Leyland, and bribing people with free porn paid for with their own money.

    I'd also question the targeting of this as a key policy: the early and most urgent beneficiaries will be people running businesses (or homes with five concurrent Netflix connections) in the middle of nowhere - neither of which I perceive as likely Labour voters. And the people who'll get no benefit, not understand it and see it as a massive waste of money will correlate quite closely with a higher propensity to vote (old people who still limit themselves to Freeview and a landline phone).
  • TabmanTabman Posts: 1,026
    Roger said:

    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.

    The policy will be popular for 3 reasons:
    1. It taps into nostalgia vote, it should be hugely popular with older voters
    2. It will see the greatest benefits in Labour held seats in the North and Midlands that the Tories are targeting.
    3. It also aligns itself with the concept of the Conservatives being a green, environmentally friendly party (as with the fracking announcement).

    This policy is should have the opposite effect to the dementia tax and the Tories IMO need to put it front and centre of their manifesto and be even more ambitious with it.

    Free broadband for all if you vote Labour or if you vote Tory they will reopen open the Penmaenmawr to Llanfairfechan railway . Tough choice
    No need to reopen the Pen to Llan route - it's already open (on the North Wales Coast mainline).
  • Looking forward to Labour nationalising Bad Weather and Spurs - that should get those problems sorted out asap too.... History tells us that's nailed on to work out well.
  • kle4 said:


    No. Rather than pretending he does know the words he should not have placed himself front and centre in sing-song. But because he is a duplicitous, bumbling toad of a man he did so.

    It speaks about his character, and does not say anything good about him.

    [Edit: I must admit I played that video just so I could have a sing-a-long. It takes me back to when the kinds were little.]

    I think that's really weak. We have enough character speaking moments about him for things that matter to bother drawing deep conclusions from him stumbling along to a kids song.

    Unpopular opinion, but I would not care if he was/is a crap father (and people have specifically referenced that, not merely that pretending to know the words speaks ill) or a crap husband if I thought politically he knew what he was doing and could be trusted, which I dont.

    We are at the point with Boris, Corbyn and even Swinson where people really overdo the attacks, even though theres plenty of good ways to attack them, particularly BoJo and Jezza.
    I agree that there are plenty of more "intellectual" attacks against the party leaders, but falseness is an easy one to pick up and hard one to shake off once it has stuck to you. Other attacks can be rationalised or argued against, but this sort of moment is the sort of thing that makes people go "Twat!" and there is no recovery from that.

    Think of Redwood or John Selwyn Gummer or Miliband and the banana. Trivial incidents, but poison to their political careers.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1195236741407313920?s=20

    So just to be clear about this for the blue luvvies on here this morning.

    4 by-election results in from last night. The Conservative share went down in all 4. They lost 3 of the 4 seats, two of them to huge swings to LibDems, and the SNP held the 4th comfortably.

    And you talk of landslides? Gents, this ain't no 1979.

    All bar Dunfermline had swings from Labour to Conservative, Dunfermline had a swing from SNP, Conservative and Labour to LD
    How to take a thrashing, write some bollox about how it was really great for the Tories to lose them all.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,269

    McDonnell all over the place on broadband

    He is not convincing anybody

    83 billion over 10 years

    This isn’t about providing free broadband. This is about control.

    Labour want to control the internet infrastructure and thus control, effectively, the UKs internet access. At the press of a button the government and the government alone could choose to bar websites or restrict access for whatever spurious or sinister reason.

    It is, in effect, allowing the UK government to do exactly as China and Russia do at the moment.

    And with Corbyns and McDonnell’s history on the merits of individual liberty that’s the scary thing.
    I thought that there were only about half a dozen points at which Britain connected to the wider internet?

    I don't think it would take any more than the police/military willing to follow orders to shut it down as it is so I don't see that a nationalisation would make any practical difference.
    Why go through all that bother when a Government minister could order a civil servant to bring up//bring down the whole system or apply filters centrally for the whole UK on what can or can't be accessed. From one central point - for everyone.

    If this were the Tories promising to bring the internet under government control all the anti-Tories on here would literally be giving birth to felines.

    If there isn't the intention to control Internet access why not just pay everyone's broadband bill? Why remove people's choice in their provider and forcibly confiscate private assets?

    Christ. Give someone £25 or £30 of something for "free" and principals of individual liberty go right out of the window don't they?

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    In terms of the main article I don’t think the favourability is as key as some think . As a normal Labour voter I’m not a fan of Corbyn but would vote for him to rid the country of this rancid Tory government .

    Of course it does help if you have a popular leader , no ones disputing that . But many Labour friends have zero time for Corbyn but will vote for him .
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,364
    Brom said:

    While the Labour broadband policy is getting mixed feedback there is perhaps a more notable flagship announcement in the Telegraph today.

    'Conservatives to reopen railway lines closed under 1960s Beeching cuts'

    Although the initial budget is only £500m (which won't touch the sides), the lines mentioned include Fleetwood, Walsall, Blyth and Skelmersdale.
    .

    I think instead of getting nostalgic about old railway lines, some of which now have roads and housing estates on them and couldn't be re-opened, I'd be asking why the current provision of rail services is so poor. Why have the Conservatives (who have been in Government for nine years) done so little to improve the railways?

    Network Rail continues to struggle and capacity issues remain in most larger towns and cities. For many people, the daily commute is a grotesque, unpleasant experience. My response to this half-baked announcement wouldn't be nostalgia but anger.

    Sometimes listening to the Conservative supporters on here trot out the latest half-baked nonsense from CCHQ, I wonder why they aren't defending the Party's record in Government since 2010 - you'd almost think they had been in Opposition and were just coming into Government.

    There's a desperate desire to convince people the Conservative Party hasn't run out of ideas (which it clearly has) and isn't just about Brexit (which is all that holds their new voting coalition together).
  • Looking forward to Labour nationalising Bad Weather and Spurs - that should get those problems sorted out asap too.... History tells us that's nailed on to work out well.

    Nationalising Spurs will mean your debt for that great white elephant that is your new one billion quid stadium gets written off. Win win.

    Just think how happy fans of Spurs will be when they have the best stadium in the Championship.
This discussion has been closed.