politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Case of the Missing Documents
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Another HY prediction for the collection!!HYUFD said:
He won't be but if he is Raab or Patel will replace him on an all out war with diehard Remainers ticket, the membership will only vote got someone even more hardline than Boris now, there is utter fury about the die hard Remainers contempt for democracy with members I speak to and a formal alliance with the Brexit Party would be likely toobeentheredonethat said:If Mr. Johnson is now to be unseated as leader of the Conservative Party, the question becomes who leads them into the GE and on what platform?
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Did they really say he had misled the Queen? Again, it's not in the written summary of the judgment.CatMan said:From the BBC News website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855
"But the Court of Session judges said they were unanimous in their belief that Mr Johnson was motivated by the "improper purpose of stymieing Parliament", and that he had therefore effectively misled the Queen in advising her to suspend Parliament."0 -
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Johnson's expression in this photo is fantastic.Anorak said:
It's "oh my god what have I got myself into" and "I did it, I'm the Prime Minister" rolled into one.
(although I suspect that the Photo was taken before he was PM).
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The findings in here are simply common sense:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Summary-Miller-v-The-Prime-Minister-1.pdf
It is also impossible for the court to assess by any measurable standard how much time is required to hold the Government to account, including by passing legislation that would require the Prime Minister to take steps to avoid leaving the European Union without an agreement. This is graphically illustrated by the speed with which the European Union (Withdrawal) (No 6) Bill has been enacted. The ability of Parliament to move with speed when it chooses to do so undermines the underlying premise of the case for the claimant that prorogation would deny Parliament the opportunity to do precisely what it has now done. [57]
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The actions of the executive are constrained by an entire body of law that gives it wide latitude but not carte blanche. The courts decided today the line had been overstepped.PrinceofTaranto said:
You can bring proceedings for most things under the guise of something but if the Court won't hear the case it isn't much use is it?Nigelb said:
Successfully in very limited circumstances.PrinceofTaranto said:
In very limited circumstances.dixiedean said:
But they already are. You have the right to apply for Judicial Review. As does everyone.PrinceofTaranto said:
That is nonsensical .How do you weigh such motivation and what is the law that says what the principal purpose has to be in any political decision ? SC will have to overturn or every single executive decision will be up to challenge.Nigelb said:
The court fully acknowledges that, but went on to rule that the principal purpose of this particular prorogation, on the evidence before it, was to frustrate Parliament.PrinceofTaranto said:I fully expect this decision to be overturned in the SC for the reasons given by Lord Sumption on Newsnight. Proroguing for a new Queen's speech is legal and part of our constitution....
You can apply in a much larger number of circumstances; the court doesn't have to hear the case if they think it without merit.0 -
The SC do not need to uphold the Scottish decision- they just need to mention that they find the PM misled the Queen for his position to be untenable- so they can say the prorogation was lawful as the constitution allows it even though the monarch was misled. After that a GONU seems most likely to me.1
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This upcoming case has similarities with the Gina Miller case .Nigelb said:
There is also the question of where you draw the line on limits to that power.nico67 said:If the government doesn’t release the documents asked for in the humble address this will be taken into account by the SC next week .
I think the issue with the judgement today is regardless of where you sit on this matter the UK doesn’t have a written constitution .
Normally a government doesn’t act improperly , we are seeing a clash between convention and the law .
Bozo and his cabal clearly want to trash every convention , let’s think about this .
If there are no restrictions to the power to prorogue effectively a government could shut down the Commons for a year .
Now of course the argument could be politically that would cause lots of problems , the
public could punish them in a future election however this alone is not reason to not restrict the power to prorogue .
I think this argument is probably the strongest to limit that power .
That is far better done by the judges than at election time where it will be conflated with a thousand other political issues.
That found that there are limits to the RP . And restricted its use in terms of stripping rights from citizens without MPs voting on it .
This case could see a restriction on that RP to prorogue .0 -
Quite.PrinceofTaranto said:
You can bring proceedings for most things under the guise of something but if the Court won't hear the case it isn't much use is it?Nigelb said:
Successfully in very limited circumstances.PrinceofTaranto said:
In very limited circumstances.dixiedean said:
But they already are. You have the right to apply for Judicial Review. As does everyone.PrinceofTaranto said:
That is nonsensical .How do you weigh such motivation and what is the law that says what the principal purpose has to be in any political decision ? SC will have to overturn or every single executive decision will be up to challenge.Nigelb said:
The court fully acknowledges that, but went on to rule that the principal purpose of this particular prorogation, on the evidence before it, was to frustrate Parliament.PrinceofTaranto said:I fully expect this decision to be overturned in the SC for the reasons given by Lord Sumption on Newsnight. Proroguing for a new Queen's speech is legal and part of our constitution....
You can apply in a much larger number of circumstances; the court doesn't have to hear the case if they think it without merit.
So it ought to tell you something when courts are prepared to hear a case.0 -
On a rather offset tangent, many moons ago I saw a wagon in a Chesterfield factory that had had a massive steel ingot put on it, and it's solebars (frames) were massively bent so it resembled a banana, with its buffers pointing into the air.Wulfrun_Phil said:
It's defining feature is crooked.JosiasJessop said:
What has Chesterfield done to deserve that fate?eristdoof said:
Can you name any other country which uses this model? It would be very impractical.Nigel_Foremain said:
It would certainly be a good idea to rotate it, through all four parts. MPS would have an excuse for a house in each location. In retrospect it would have been far better than devolution which has just given us loads more lightweight politicians.Benpointer said:Solution to several issues at once - reconvene the UK parliament in Edinburgh.
Addresses: widespread distaste among voters for Westminster; unlawful prorogation; London-centricity; feeling that Scotland is ruled from 'abroad', issues with the fabric of the Houses of Parliament.... Plus lots more no doubt.
The usual way around this problem is to have a clearly defined federal sytem, so that it is clear who has responsibility for what.
Decamping the UK government to a town in the middle of the UK, maybe Chesterfield, would be worth considering though.
ISTR someone actually bought it.
Someone commented that a crooked wagon should perhaps remain within sight of Chesterfield's crooked spire.0 -
You clearly haven't heard about HY's genius plan for an ethnocentric Orangeman 'We Are The People' homeland in the far NE of Ulster?DougSeal said:
Yes but any border poll would not differentiate. NI is a single political entity and will vote as such. Even if it did not the traditional Irish Counties were abolished for administrative purposes in the early 1970a.HYUFD said:
Actually even most under 35 Unionists still back staying in the UK.SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1171736621181526017
The split is entirely Unionist Nationalist as always, there is a huge division between the likes of Unionist Protestant Leaver county Antrim and Catholic Remainer Nationalist county Fermanagh and Tyrone0 -
Now that WOULD be piss funny. "One cannot ignore the advice of one's courts. The Prime Minister can fek orf"Scott_P said:0 -
Got to say it would be very tempting if No Deal came to pass. An Independent Scotland would be fast-tracked back into the EU - Euro, Schengen and all - and would storm ahead imo.malcolmg said:
Everybody will be welcome and if you want you can get a passport if you live therePulpstar said:Hmm I don't think my Scottish ancestry is... quite close enough to get a Scottish passport in the case of independence. I think my mother is though...
I just hope for E&W's sake Brexit can be stopped or kept very soft and a more federal UK can be allowed to develop.0 -
I'm not sure they can. What is said between privy council and HMQ is not in the public domain. Hence we cannot know if she was misled or fully aware of all factorsmr-claypole said:The SC do not need to uphold the Scottish decision- they just need to mention that they find the PM misled the Queen for his position to be untenable- so they can say the prorogation was lawful as the constitution allows it even though the monarch was misled. After that a GONU seems most likely to me.
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Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.GIN1138 said:
If the election is in the bag for Labour it doesn't matter if it's 15th October or 1st November.The_Taxman said:
What was to stop BJ making the GE day 1st November and No Dealing in the meantime. BJ and those around him do not play fair. I say fuck him and only call an election in a few months time when relative stability is ensured. He or his succesor will have got a further extension and a new parliament can be chosen by the people to represent them.GIN1138 said:
But you've just basically said all the Opposition have to do is turn up on the day and the election is in the bag?The_Taxman said:
Parliament will vote for an election, when it suits them not when it is about giving BJ and the nutters around him a No Deal Brexit. The Government has been held to account bt the H of C, long may that continue.GIN1138 said:
OK so the Opposition will get on with it then?The_Taxman said:
lol - I very much doubt that will happen. It is the ground game that counts and the opposition parties have a tremendous advantage in numbers, motivation etc...GIN1138 said:
And yet we've just had an opinion poll giving this government a 14% lead which in an election would translate to a majority of nearly 150 seats?Nigel_Foremain said:Observing this government's death is almost getting revolting. It is like watching a medieval execution where the victim is kept alive to see his own organs and entrails slowly removed. The Executive is being slowly executed.
You can't get a better guarantee that No Deal is off the table than Corbyn in Downing St with a big majority until 2024 at least?
Something is not adding up.0 -
I must politely disagree. The Dismissal involved a Governor-General dismissing the head of the executive (the PM) for deciding to rule without the required Parliamentary support. The GG acted correctly and it is shameful that modern views of that event are skewed by partisans brigading the Wikipedia page. A constitutional monarchy is not just garters and crowns, it is also a safeguard when a Government steps outside the rules.eristdoof said:
My reading of the Whitlam Crisis was that the Govenor General acted beyond his de facto powers, but the Queen got most of the blame. It's crazy that in this case the Govenor General as the Queen's representative did not consult the Queen before taking such controversial action.DecrepitJohnL said:
Not since the Governor-General (who is sort-of the Queen) sacked the Australian Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam.GIN1138 said:
HMQ does not "fire" her Prime Minister.rpjs said:Grounds for Brenda to fire Boris? Historically, ministries had to have the confidence
of Parliament and the Crown. The latter has become a dead letter as in effect the ministry is the Crown for almost all practical purposes, but it is based on the assumption that ministers are actually telling the Queen the truth when advising her on exercising her prerogative powers.
But if the supreme country finds the PM has acted unlawfully in the advice he has given her then of course his position and that of his government would be untennable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis
When I lived in Australia this episode still wrankled them, even the monarchists, despite being 25 years ago (at that time).0 -
And the embarrassing back pedalling begins....
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1171755139868368897?s=20
I think someone’s OODA loop is seriously fecked up.....0 -
Yes, it is obvious. However, the once bright GIN has long since been taken over by a bot, hence his repeating this guff ad infinitum.Dura_Ace said:
Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.GIN1138 said:
If the election is in the bag for Labour it doesn't matter if it's 15th October or 1st November.The_Taxman said:
What was to stop BJ making the GE day 1st November and No Dealing in the meantime. BJ and those around him do not play fair. I say fuck him and only call an election in a few months time when relative stability is ensured. He or his succesor will have got a further extension and a new parliament can be chosen by the people to represent them.GIN1138 said:
But you've just basically said all the Opposition have to do is turn up on the day and the election is in the bag?The_Taxman said:
Parliament will vote for an election, when it suits them not when it is about giving BJ and the nutters around him a No Deal Brexit. The Government has been held to account bt the H of C, long may that continue.GIN1138 said:
OK so the Opposition will get on with it then?The_Taxman said:
lol - I very much doubt that will happen. It is the ground game that counts and the opposition parties have a tremendous advantage in numbers, motivation etc...GIN1138 said:
And yet we've just had an opinion poll giving this government a 14% lead which in an election would translate to a majority of nearly 150 seats?Nigel_Foremain said:Observing this government's death is almost getting revolting. It is like watching a medieval execution where the victim is kept alive to see his own organs and entrails slowly removed. The Executive is being slowly executed.
You can't get a better guarantee that No Deal is off the table than Corbyn in Downing St with a big majority until 2024 at least?
Something is not adding up.0 -
A more recent case is the Governor-General of Tuvalu using reserve powers to recall parliament after the Prime Minister refused after losing his majority and also the Speaker refusing to accept a VONC in the government.DecrepitJohnL said:
Not since the Governor-General (who is sort-of the Queen) sacked the Australian Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam.GIN1138 said:
HMQ does not "fire" her Prime Minister.rpjs said:Grounds for Brenda to fire Boris? Historically, ministries had to have the confidence
of Parliament and the Crown. The latter has become a dead letter as in effect the ministry is the Crown for almost all practical purposes, but it is based on the assumption that ministers are actually telling the Queen the truth when advising her on exercising her prerogative powers.
But if the supreme country finds the PM has acted unlawfully in the advice he has given her then of course his position and that of his government would be untennable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis
The Governor-General won.0 -
It is very strongly implied, as they clearly state that, on the evidence presented to them, the principal reason for the prorogation was not the one advanced by the government.Chris said:
Did they really say he had misled the Queen? Again, it's not in the written summary of the judgment.CatMan said:From the BBC News website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855
"But the Court of Session judges said they were unanimous in their belief that Mr Johnson was motivated by the "improper purpose of stymieing Parliament", and that he had therefore effectively misled the Queen in advising her to suspend Parliament."
Unless you think they briefed HM on the ruse, and she was entirely happy with it ?
(Which unlikely scenario would in any case make Rees Mogg a liar for his account of the prorogation meeting.)
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Exactly this.dyedwoolie said:
I'm not sure they can. What is said between privy council and HMQ is not in the public domain. Hence we cannot know if she was misled or fully aware of all factorsmr-claypole said:The SC do not need to uphold the Scottish decision- they just need to mention that they find the PM misled the Queen for his position to be untenable- so they can say the prorogation was lawful as the constitution allows it even though the monarch was misled. After that a GONU seems most likely to me.
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Yes. You’re not anti English at all. In any way. It’s all cuddly civic nationalism. N’er an aggressive word is ever spoken nor discriminatory thought expressed. Unless you’re an English student of course. Or happen to live near a Siol nan Gaidheal chapter. Otherwise I’m sure you’re golden.malcolmg said:
Everybody will be welcome and if you want you can get a passport if you live therePulpstar said:Hmm I don't think my Scottish ancestry is... quite close enough to get a Scottish passport in the case of independence. I think my mother is though...
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In terms of prorogation, the long term solution would surely be to legislate it as an annual occurence of maximum x days unless superceded by a vote of the house 'not to so prorogue', or to set a limit on the number of days prorogation. Or indeed that parliament must meet at least once every seven days during a period of prorogation1
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Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
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Some dreadful headlines for Bozo today .
Even the fawning BBC can’t avoid this today .0 -
That’s a great idea .dyedwoolie said:In terms of prorogation, the long term solution would surely be to legislate it as an annual occurence of maximum x days unless superceded by a vote of the house 'not to so prorogue', or to set a limit on the number of days prorogation. Or indeed that parliament must meet at least once every seven days during a period of prorogation
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That attack on the Scottish courts is mad, and sounds like Dom had a foaming tankard of British sherry at 11.30am
They need to wind it in, and tread VERY carefully now. TSK1 -
That's not strictly true. Evidently very little was said:dyedwoolie said:
I'm not sure they can. What is said between privy council and HMQ is not in the public domain. Hence we cannot know if she was misled or fully aware of all factorsmr-claypole said:The SC do not need to uphold the Scottish decision- they just need to mention that they find the PM misled the Queen for his position to be untenable- so they can say the prorogation was lawful as the constitution allows it even though the monarch was misled. After that a GONU seems most likely to me.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/jacob-rees-mogg-prorogue-parliament-boris-johnson-the-queen-privy-council/
...While he was not allowed to divulge what the Queen said, Mr Rees-Mogg explained that the Privy Council meeting was a “very formal process” in which there was no debate. It was conducted with all attendees standing up in line with tradition...0 -
It's been rowed away from very hurriedly. I've got a sneaking suspicion Mr cummings might be for the chop.........Byronic said:That attack on the Scottish courts is mad, and sounds like Dom had a foaming tankard of British sherry at 11.30am
They need to wind it in, and tread VERY carefully now. TSK0 -
It was taken the day he was in Scotland this week.eristdoof said:
Johnson's expression in this photo is fantastic.Anorak said:
It's "oh my god what have I got myself into" and "I did it, I'm the Prime Minister" rolled into one.
(although I suspect that the Photo was taken before he was PM).
All the photo is missing is the 2 litre bottle of cheap cider at his feet, half empty.0 -
Dire when even your own lackeys are lambasting youCarlottaVance said:https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1171744633514319872?s=20
And not much confidence in Downing St0 -
I can't mention a country, but I can recall a supranational body that does it. Now what was it called, it might come back to me....eristdoof said:
Can you name any other country which uses this model? It would be very impractical.Nigel_Foremain said:
It would certainly be a good idea to rotate it, through all four parts. MPS would have an excuse for a house in each location. In retrospect it would have been far better than devolution which has just given us loads more lightweight politicians.Benpointer said:Solution to several issues at once - reconvene the UK parliament in Edinburgh.
Addresses: widespread distaste among voters for Westminster; unlawful prorogation; London-centricity; feeling that Scotland is ruled from 'abroad', issues with the fabric of the Houses of Parliament.... Plus lots more no doubt.
The usual way around this problem is to have a clearly defined federal sytem, so that it is clear who has responsibility for what.
Decamping the UK government to a town in the middle of the UK, maybe Chesterfield, would be worth considering though.0 -
I am not going to do another article on this but worth noting the following points:-
1. Before people start getting over-excited about arresting Boris, remember the Supreme Court may overrule this decision.
2. If so, it is possible that the losing party might appeal to the European Court of Human Rights (the ECHR) citing Article 11. No idea whether such an appeal has legs or would even be entertained but imagine the reaction if that were to happen.
3. The missing witness statement and those communications now become really quite important if the Courts consider that the Crown was - or may have been - misled by the government.
4. Which Ministers in Cabinet were involved in that decision also becomes potentially important. Why take the rap for a decision over which you had no ownership?
5. “Boris lies to the Queen” is the sort of thing that can cut through to the public.
6. This statement by the Lord Chancellor, Robert Buckland QC -
- is welcome (it’s the bare minimum, frankly) but does not go far enough. He should unequivocally condemn the statement by No 10 attacking the Scottish courts for doing their job. He needs to protect them from his own government not just express his own confidence in them. If he cannot or won’t, he should in all honour resign.Our judges are renowned around the world for their excellence and impartiality and I have total confidence in their independence in every case.
— Robert Buckland QC MP (@RobertBuckland) September 11, 20190 -
And it’s not even this Friday....the 13th......nico67 said:Some dreadful headlines for Bozo today .
Even the fawning BBC can’t avoid this today .0 -
I didn't say it was in the bag for Labour. I said the opposition parties have a more motivated base! I was reffering to Labour, LD, SNP etc. It also looks like tactical voting against Tories will impact the result. Delaying the election removes giving it on BJ's terms. He has been out played!GIN1138 said:
If the election is in the bag for Labour it doesn't matter if it's 15th October or 1st November.The_Taxman said:
What was to stop BJ making the GE day 1st November and No Dealing in the meantime. BJ and those around him do not play fair. I say fuck him and only call an election in a few months time when relative stability is ensured. He or his succesor will have got a further extension and a new parliament can be chosen by the people to represent them.GIN1138 said:
But you've just basically said all the Opposition have to do is turn up on the day and the election is in the bag?The_Taxman said:
Parliament will vote for an election, when it suits them not when it is about giving BJ and the nutters around him a No Deal Brexit. The Government has been held to account bt the H of C, long may that continue.GIN1138 said:
OK so the Opposition will get on with it then?The_Taxman said:
lol - I very much doubt that will happen. It is the ground game that counts and the opposition parties have a tremendous advantage in numbers, motivation etc...GIN1138 said:
And yet we've just had an opinion poll giving this government a 14% lead which in an election would translate to a majority of nearly 150 seats?Nigel_Foremain said:Observing this government's death is almost getting revolting. It is like watching a medieval execution where the victim is kept alive to see his own organs and entrails slowly removed. The Executive is being slowly executed.
You can't get a better guarantee that No Deal is off the table than Corbyn in Downing St with a big majority until 2024 at least?
Something is not adding up.0 -
It is deliberate. Like Leadsom saying the 21 tories were welcome back whilst no 10 saying they werent. They will spin everything both ways, allowing their believers to believe the version they prefer.CarlottaVance said:And the embarrassing back pedalling begins....
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1171755139868368897?s=20
I think someone’s OODA loop is seriously fecked up.....
Those who want to rail against the judges think they know what the PM really thinks. Those who want to obey the rule of law are partially reassured by whats seen to be a climbdown.0 -
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
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nico67 said:
Some dreadful headlines for Bozo today .
Even the fawning BBC can’t avoid this today .
BBC News is unwatchable. Laura K is unbearably on-side. I gave up on it long ago.0 -
"Tom Watson calls for second Brexit referendum before an election"
https://news.sky.com/story/tom-watson-calls-for-second-brexit-referendum-before-an-election-118069340 -
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
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Not a nice way to talk about all those SNP MPsmalcolmg said:
Would need to open a shedload of pubs and restaurants for all the freeloadersBenpointer said:Solution to several issues at once - reconvene the UK parliament in Edinburgh.
Addresses: widespread distaste among voters for Westminster; unlawful prorogation; London-centricity; feeling that Scotland is ruled from 'abroad'; issues with the fabric of the Houses of Parliament; congestion around Parliament Square.... Plus lots more no doubt.0 -
How are 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist' defined here? I get that a minority of LDs favour Brexit and Brexit party voters remain, but surely a 'nationalist' ceases to be a nationalist if they'd vote for the union and vice versa?SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11717366211815260170 -
Not so. It is ludicrous to put No Deal on the ballot paper when Remain carries far more public support. You are institutionalised man - get out, get out now - before it’s too late!Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
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The government really has handled this case badly.0
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What is illegitimate about deal vs extend for further debate?Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
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- is welcome (it’s the bare minimum, frankly) but does not go far enough. He should unequivocally condemn the statement by No 10 attacking the Scottish courts for doing their job. He needs to protect them from his own government not just express his own confidence in them. If he cannot or won’t, he should in all honour resign.Cyclefree said:I am not going to do another article on this but worth noting the following points:-
1. Before people start getting over-excited about arresting Boris, remember the Supreme Court may overrule this decision.
2. If so, it is possible that the losing party might appeal to the European Court of Human Rights (the ECHR) citing Article 11. No idea whether such an appeal has legs or would even be entertained but imagine the reaction if that were to happen.
3. The missing witness statement and those communications now become really quite important if the Courts consider that the Crown was - or may have been - misled by the government.
4. Which Ministers in Cabinet were involved in that decision also becomes potentially important. Why take the rap for a decision over which you had no ownership?
5. “Boris lies to the Queen” is the sort of thing that can cut through to the public.
6. This statement by the Lord Chancellor, Robert Buckland QC -Our judges are renowned around the world for their excellence and impartiality and I have total confidence in their independence in every case.
— Robert Buckland QC MP (@RobertBuckland) September 11, 2019
It wasn't a statement by number ten, it was 'sources'.0 -
Gusto Bebb suggesting documents deliberately being withheld from courts. Thinks Boris should resign.0
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Die hard remainers mentioned twice. No mention of the war or traitors though. I wonder if he is having the teensiweeniest doubt that Boris might be a liability after all. A reverse damascene moment perhaps.Anabobazina said:
Another HY prediction for the collection!!HYUFD said:
He won't be but if he is Raab or Patel will replace him on an all out war with diehard Remainers ticket, the membership will only vote got someone even more hardline than Boris now, there is utter fury about the die hard Remainers contempt for democracy with members I speak to and a formal alliance with the Brexit Party would be likely toobeentheredonethat said:If Mr. Johnson is now to be unseated as leader of the Conservative Party, the question becomes who leads them into the GE and on what platform?
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Indeed it’s rather like those PB Tories who vote Tory at every election yet deny they are Tories.Selebian said:
How are 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist' defined here? I get that a minority of LDs favour Brexit and Brexit party voters remain, but surely a 'nationalist' ceases to be a nationalist if they'd vote for the union and vice versa?SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11717366211815260170 -
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The Northern Ireland Act must come into play soon.Selebian said:
How are 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist' defined here? I get that a minority of LDs favour Brexit and Brexit party voters remain, but surely a 'nationalist' ceases to be a nationalist if they'd vote for the union and vice versa?SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11717366211815260170 -
Hes about to get a ton of shit dropped on him for supporting Carl Beech, his days are numberedAndyJS said:"Tom Watson calls for second Brexit referendum before an election"
https://news.sky.com/story/tom-watson-calls-for-second-brexit-referendum-before-an-election-118069340 -
That could be reasonable - I was talking about the proposed end states.noneoftheabove said:
What is illegitimate about deal vs extend for further debate?Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
0 -
TBF, No.10 'sources' have now rowed back, and No.10 has made no such 'statement' officially, I think ?Cyclefree said:I am not going to do another article on this but worth noting the following points:-
1. Before people start getting over-excited about arresting Boris, remember the Supreme Court may overrule this decision.
2. If so, it is possible that the losing party might appeal to the European Court of Human Rights (the ECHR) citing Article 11. No idea whether such an appeal has legs or would even be entertained but imagine the reaction if that were to happen.
3. The missing witness statement and those communications now become really quite important if the Courts consider that the Crown was - or may have been - misled by the government.
4. Which Ministers in Cabinet were involved in that decision also becomes potentially important. Why take the rap for a decision over which you had no ownership?
5. “Boris lies to the Queen” is the sort of thing that can cut through to the public.
6. This statement by the Lord Chancellor, Robert Buckland QC ... is welcome (it’s the bare minimum, frankly) but does not go far enough. He should unequivocally condemn the statement by No 10 attacking the Scottish courts for doing their job. He needs to protect them from his own government not just express his own confidence in them. If he cannot or won’t, he should in all honour resign.
Frankly, I didn't expect this decision, so the evidence before the court of the government's motives must have been fairly blatant.
Much hangs on next week's decision.0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
What fresh unnecessary cockup has the jester and his court contrived in the last hour or two?0 -
Everyone focuses on the same old rehashed arguments, people should consider other options such as that or a citizens assembly - there are probably many other paths that could work. That they have not yet been widely debated with people having positions they are tied to should be in their favour rather than dismissing them in favour of the resolutions that have all failed to make any progress.Tissue_Price said:
That could be reasonable - I was talking about the proposed end states.noneoftheabove said:
What is illegitimate about deal vs extend for further debate?Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
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What if the RoI says they are not keen!AlastairMeeks said:
The Northern Ireland Act must come into play soon.Selebian said:
How are 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist' defined here? I get that a minority of LDs favour Brexit and Brexit party voters remain, but surely a 'nationalist' ceases to be a nationalist if they'd vote for the union and vice versa?SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11717366211815260170 -
Politicians are never uglier than when they are losing. I think, therefore, that we can see which ones are currently losing.0
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How quick can the criminal cabal in no 10 hastily re write the documents related to the suspension !
If they don’t release them then what do they have to hide , and how much will this influence the SC decision .0 -
Dire when even your own lackeys are lambasting youCarlottaVance said:https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1171744633514319872?s=20
And not much confidence in Downing St
Westminster will never give up the powersBenpointer said:
Got to say it would be very tempting if No Deal came to pass. An Independent Scotland would be fast-tracked back into the EU - Euro, Schengen and all - and would storm ahead imo.malcolmg said:
Everybody will be welcome and if you want you can get a passport if you live therePulpstar said:Hmm I don't think my Scottish ancestry is... quite close enough to get a Scottish passport in the case of independence. I think my mother is though...
I just hope for E&W's sake Brexit can be stopped or kept very soft and a more federal UK can be allowed to develop.0 -
Imagine Boris Johnson handling the liaison committee.
https://twitter.com/c4ciaran/status/1171759668563234817?s=210 -
That is the problem with another referendum.noneoftheabove said:
What is illegitimate about deal vs extend for further debate?Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
No one can now agree on what questions might be 'legitimate'.0 -
Jeez. What a mess. The Union about to break (tho I think we should take any polls on this, in the present atmos, with a mighty pinch of salt), the Queen being asked to resign.... Brexit is busting open our politics.
We need either a referendum or a GE very very very fast. Maybe the former is the way out for Boris, and he can say he was given no choice?1 -
They would yes, and would rightly get mullered for it. Guto better have good sources cos he doesn't have the protection of p privilege here. Serious accusation.Yorkcity said:
If the government did not give full disclosure.Surely they will be in contempt ?dixiedean said:Gusto Bebb suggesting documents deliberately being withheld from courts. Thinks Boris should resign.
0 -
I don't think he always contrives them, they just, well, happen.Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
What fresh unnecessary cockup has the jester and his court contrived in the last hour or two?0 -
Such as?Anabobazina said:
Indeed it’s rather like those PB Tories who vote Tory at every election yet deny they are Tories.Selebian said:
How are 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist' defined here? I get that a minority of LDs favour Brexit and Brexit party voters remain, but surely a 'nationalist' ceases to be a nationalist if they'd vote for the union and vice versa?SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11717366211815260170 -
If you think burner phones will help you, think again. A former colleague whom I investigated is in prison for insider dealing. Her use of burner phones did not help one little bit. In an earlier case, two conspirators who talked at the races were also caught. Once more than one person is involved - and this will always be the case - you are vulnerable.TGOHF said:Using dubious laws to read private messages simply drives discussions to verbal - down the pub or over a coffee.
Or onto more secure messaging systems or burner phones.
Dominic Grieve may think he’s Robocop but I saw him and his son wearing matching tabards on the sleeper train - no doubt off to shoot some well armed what’s app using No deal Grouse.0 -
Very plausible. It's how Boris kept people who want a deal inside by acting as though he wanted one even though it looks far from it.noneoftheabove said:
It is deliberate. Like Leadsom saying the 21 tories were welcome back whilst no 10 saying they werent. They will spin everything both ways, allowing their believers to believe the version they prefer.CarlottaVance said:And the embarrassing back pedalling begins....
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1171755139868368897?s=20
I think someone’s OODA loop is seriously fecked up.....
Those who want to rail against the judges think they know what the PM really thinks. Those who want to obey the rule of law are partially reassured by whats seen to be a climbdown.0 -
The BBC is accused of being anti-Labour and anti-Tory by their respective supporters. Maybe that means it's fairly neutral.Anabobazina said:nico67 said:Some dreadful headlines for Bozo today .
Even the fawning BBC can’t avoid this today .
BBC News is unwatchable. Laura K is unbearably on-side. I gave up on it long ago.0 -
To be fair, I don't think any English holiday homes have been burnt down recently, have they. No equivalent of Meibion Glyndŵr?DougSeal said:
Yes. You’re not anti English at all. In any way. It’s all cuddly civic nationalism. N’er an aggressive word is ever spoken nor discriminatory thought expressed. Unless you’re an English student of course. Or happen to live near a Siol nan Gaidheal chapter. Otherwise I’m sure you’re golden.malcolmg said:
Everybody will be welcome and if you want you can get a passport if you live therePulpstar said:Hmm I don't think my Scottish ancestry is... quite close enough to get a Scottish passport in the case of independence. I think my mother is though...
0 -
Morris Dancer, and many otherskle4 said:
Such as?Anabobazina said:
Indeed it’s rather like those PB Tories who vote Tory at every election yet deny they are Tories.Selebian said:
How are 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist' defined here? I get that a minority of LDs favour Brexit and Brexit party voters remain, but surely a 'nationalist' ceases to be a nationalist if they'd vote for the union and vice versa?SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11717366211815260170 -
Mostly because no one wants their option excluded and including all options becomes too complex and has ordering biases. Deal vs extend largely resolves those problems.Nigelb said:
That is the problem with another referendum.noneoftheabove said:
What is illegitimate about deal vs extend for further debate?Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
No one can now agree on what questions might be 'legitimate'.0 -
Spot on.AndyJS said:
The BBC is accused of being anti-Labour and anti-Tory by their respective supporters. Maybe that means it's fairly neutral.Anabobazina said:nico67 said:Some dreadful headlines for Bozo today .
Even the fawning BBC can’t avoid this today .
BBC News is unwatchable. Laura K is unbearably on-side. I gave up on it long ago.0 -
Bit like the charts that historically have said “farewell Tories”SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1171736621181526017
Scoop! People can change their minds as they age....0 -
I imagine all documents have already been handed over. If there are undisclosed docs then they are no longer a legitimate government and deserve to be cast out into the utterdarknico67 said:How quick can the criminal cabal in no 10 hastily re write the documents related to the suspension !
If they don’t release them then what do they have to hide , and how much will this influence the SC decision .0 -
Prorogation has been a total clusterfuck.
As noted this morning, this wizard wheeze was dreamt up by JRM.
What chances he comes out of this unscathed?0 -
He was implying sources inside No.10.dyedwoolie said:
They would yes, and would rightly get mullered for it. Guto better have good sources cos he doesn't have the protection of p privilege here. Serious accusation.Yorkcity said:
If the government did not give full disclosure.Surely they will be in contempt ?dixiedean said:Gusto Bebb suggesting documents deliberately being withheld from courts. Thinks Boris should resign.
0 -
Surely it's more like identifying as a catholic but not believing in godAnabobazina said:
Indeed it’s rather like those PB Tories who vote Tory at every election yet deny they are Tories.Selebian said:
How are 'Unionist' and 'Nationalist' defined here? I get that a minority of LDs favour Brexit and Brexit party voters remain, but surely a 'nationalist' ceases to be a nationalist if they'd vote for the union and vice versa?SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/11717366211815260170 -
I am not anti English, though I am sure there will be a small amount in Scotland are. Generally all are welcomed and shedloads of English people live happily in Scotland. You get people in England that are anti Scottish , and loads of the establishment are etc, that is life.DougSeal said:
Yes. You’re not anti English at all. In any way. It’s all cuddly civic nationalism. N’er an aggressive word is ever spoken nor discriminatory thought expressed. Unless you’re an English student of course. Or happen to live near a Siol nan Gaidheal chapter. Otherwise I’m sure you’re golden.malcolmg said:
Everybody will be welcome and if you want you can get a passport if you live therePulpstar said:Hmm I don't think my Scottish ancestry is... quite close enough to get a Scottish passport in the case of independence. I think my mother is though...
Nobody is forcing you to come.0 -
https://twitter.com/GeneralBoles/status/1171733281991249920Scott_P said:Prorogation has been a total clusterfuck.
As noted this morning, this wizard wheeze was dreamt up by JRM.
What chances he comes out of this unscathed?0 -
Stupid idiots can't even redact a document properly...Nigelb said:
I think it's fairly clear from this bit:PrinceofTaranto said:
What "porkies" did Boris tell the Queen ? This is highly defamatory .Roger said:
You surely don't think the blue rinses are going to stay loyal now that Boris has been caught telling their Queen porkies?GIN1138 said:
...although advice to HM the Queen on the exercise of the royal prerogative of prorogating Parliament was not reviewable on the normal grounds of judicial review, it would nevertheless be unlawful if its purpose was to stymie parliamentary scrutiny of the executive, which was a central pillar of the good governance principle enshrined in the constitution; this followed from the principles of democracy and the rule of law. The circumstances in which the advice was proffered and the content of the documents produced by the respondent demonstrated that this was the true reason for the prorogation....0 -
They would be in the queue for sureNigel_Foremain said:
Not a nice way to talk about all those SNP MPsmalcolmg said:
Would need to open a shedload of pubs and restaurants for all the freeloadersBenpointer said:Solution to several issues at once - reconvene the UK parliament in Edinburgh.
Addresses: widespread distaste among voters for Westminster; unlawful prorogation; London-centricity; feeling that Scotland is ruled from 'abroad'; issues with the fabric of the Houses of Parliament; congestion around Parliament Square.... Plus lots more no doubt.0 -
The Bozo-Cumstain cunning strategy would appear to be to throw a dozen dog turds at the wall to see if any of them stick.0
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I expect Kuennsberg and Brillo likely vote Tory, whilst Maitliss and Pienaar are Labour voters. Overall its output is neutral enough though, as evidenced by the fact it is attacked from both sides.AndyJS said:
The BBC is accused of being anti-Labour and anti-Tory by their respective supporters. Maybe that means it's fairly neutral.Anabobazina said:nico67 said:Some dreadful headlines for Bozo today .
Even the fawning BBC can’t avoid this today .
BBC News is unwatchable. Laura K is unbearably on-side. I gave up on it long ago.0 -
I thought I was cynical before this government came to power but I have now had to ratchet up my cynicism several levels!kle4 said:
Very plausible. It's how Boris kept people who want a deal inside by acting as though he wanted one even though it looks far from it.noneoftheabove said:
It is deliberate. Like Leadsom saying the 21 tories were welcome back whilst no 10 saying they werent. They will spin everything both ways, allowing their believers to believe the version they prefer.CarlottaVance said:And the embarrassing back pedalling begins....
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1171755139868368897?s=20
I think someone’s OODA loop is seriously fecked up.....
Those who want to rail against the judges think they know what the PM really thinks. Those who want to obey the rule of law are partially reassured by whats seen to be a climbdown.0 -
Cummings: total chaos, everything's fine and going to plan.0
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Mr. Anabobazina, I've voted for about half a dozen different parties. I didn't vote Conservative at the last local elections.
I don't mind fiction writing, I rather enjoy doing it myself, but I'd be grateful if you didn't write fiction about me.1 -
Number 10 saying it has withheld documents?!dixiedean said:
He was implying sources inside No.10.dyedwoolie said:
They would yes, and would rightly get mullered for it. Guto better have good sources cos he doesn't have the protection of p privilege here. Serious accusation.Yorkcity said:
If the government did not give full disclosure.Surely they will be in contempt ?dixiedean said:Gusto Bebb suggesting documents deliberately being withheld from courts. Thinks Boris should resign.
0 -
In theory - but in practice, both are fairly unpopular options, and less popular than those excluded.noneoftheabove said:
Mostly because no one wants their option excluded and including all options becomes too complex and has ordering biases. Deal vs extend largely resolves those problems.Nigelb said:
That is the problem with another referendum.noneoftheabove said:
What is illegitimate about deal vs extend for further debate?Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
No one can now agree on what questions might be 'legitimate'.
0 -
Yes, but on this issue it is unlikely. Many people in the North, whichever "side" they are from no longer fear the republic as they did in the past. The republic used to be seen as backward. Now it is seen as more modern than the North. I'd give continued partition 20 years max.CarlottaVance said:
Bit like the charts that historically have said “farewell Tories”SouthamObserver said:Look at the age splits. Farewell Northern Ireland ...
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1171736621181526017
Scoop! People can change their minds as they age....0 -
With the theory that each terrible government is replaced by an even worse one, the next government is going to be a corker and no mistake.0
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Who did you vote for in the last locals ?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anabobazina, I've voted for about half a dozen different parties. I didn't vote Conservative at the last local elections.
I don't mind fiction writing, I rather enjoy doing it myself, but I'd be grateful if you didn't write fiction about me.0 -
Because we do not know the plan, I find this hard to judge. We know the end state the plan wants a Boris deal that is a clear win over the EU (which is why he will not get it) or no deal on 31st Oct.AndyJS said:Cummings: total chaos, everything's fine and going to plan.
My view of the current events is that none have had a significant effect on that outcome.0 -
Worth noting the rolling news coverage today is not nearly as breathless as we are......0
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As with MPs quickly painting themselves into a corner on the unacceptability of The Deal, this is, um, courageous. As Tom N-D says... no coming back from this should circumstances change, before *or after* an election. If BXP was to win a dozen seats in a tight race, that quote is coming back as they sit down to talks.
Why not just say "Good old Nige.. he wants *how* many seats? He's having a giraffe", which at least leaves the way open to a deal later.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/11717582913006182470 -
Nothing is excluded! Extension is by definition unpopular, but is what you do when you are not yet ready to make a decision. This solution respects the actual leave vote far more than any other proposal, and makes catastrophe for the country unlikely.Nigelb said:
In theory - but in practice, both are fairly unpopular options, and less popular than those excluded.noneoftheabove said:
Mostly because no one wants their option excluded and including all options becomes too complex and has ordering biases. Deal vs extend largely resolves those problems.Nigelb said:
That is the problem with another referendum.noneoftheabove said:
What is illegitimate about deal vs extend for further debate?Tissue_Price said:
The only second referendum with legitimacy, considering the result of the first, would be Deal vs No Deal.Anabobazina said:
Not really, it’s a consequence of fighting an election under FPP. If you want a straight fight, call a second referendum, May vs Remain.Tissue_Price said:
Indeed, but it's come to something when the parties of the left are actively trying to promote Farage.Dura_Ace said:Isn't this obvious? It is not in the bag for Labour so they want to make him break his 31/10 promise then watch as he is devoured by BXP at a GE.
No one can now agree on what questions might be 'legitimate'.0
