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rcs1000 said:
Here's how to maximise the current shit show:
1. VoNC in Boris Johnson
2. MPs have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn
3. Jeremy Corbyn becomes PM
4. Jeremy Corbyn secures extension
5. VoNC in Jeremy Corbyn
6. MPs have confidence in Boris Johnson
Or a series of vonc'd PMs leads us to our destiny, a Chris Williamson premiership.0 -
Well, it wont have Jezza anywhere near it, unless there are some fresh vegetables to be delivered by one of those organic veg box on your doorstep schemes.Foxy said:
Nah, we have just entered the negotiation period on how the post VONC government is to be formed..Stark_Dawning said:Brilliant by Jezza - killed off the VONC and ensured No Deal in a single deft stroke. Boris will be paralysed with grief tonight.
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If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)0 -
TGOHF said:
He’d be kicked out of Labour if he tried.Anabobazina said:Put Sir Keir Starmer as caretaker PM and we’re talking.
So what? Party politics is (or should be) dead.0 -
Yep, I'd also reckon Greta as a greater evil than Dr Wollaston.Anabobazina said:And yet Dr Sarah Wollaston is the personification of everything wrong with British politics according to Sean.
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We have done this one to death. Sorry.Beibheirli_C said:
You are Sean_T and I claim my €5.41Byronic said:If I were an MP thar retort might have more bite. But, you know, I'm not. So it don't.
I'm just an ex male model in Richmond, expressing herself.1 -
McDonnell going in a bit harder than Jeremy.0
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I am not SeanT. Thank God. He was an awful womanizer and a brutal Brexiteer. Yes he was often very funny. charming, persuasive, smart, witty, clever, gifted, eloquent, fascinatingly broad-chested, and damned damned sexy, but he left me cold.Foxy said:
You forgot to mention that you voted Remain this time, but glad to here that you are gender fluid. It is a demographic sorely lacking in PB land. Probably...Byronic said:
If I were an MP thar retort might have more bite. But, you know, I'm not. So it don't.IanB2 said:
Yes, these people who flip and flop between Remain and Leave are dreadful and should really have made more of an effort to work out what they think.Byronic said:
There is not a single MP I detest more than Sarah Wollaston: who joined the Leave campaign SOLELY as a way to advance her career, when she had obviously planned - with her dear friend Dave Cameron - to later defect from the same Leave campaign, and join the Remainers. At a particularly "advantageous" moment for Remain.TGOHF said:
Sadly for her, it totally failed. Because it was so painfully obvious. So she then went from ardent Leaver to reluctant Remainer to..... actively campaigning for a 2nd referendum in favour of Remain?!?!
God help us.
Sarah Wollaston is the very definition of unprincipled careerism - and, therefore, everything that is wrong with British politics. She is a traitor to herself, let alone the rest of us. She is a night-hag of hypocrisy. Hope she loses Totnes.
I'm just an ex male model in Richmond, expressing herself.
I am now transitioning. I hope I will have PB's support as I become Mrs Byronic, in coming months.3 -
Isn't the surest way to prevent no deal to vote for the deal?Artist said:0 -
Oh God. In the Parthenon of shit fu*ks that we would end up with, this one did not trouble my sleepless nights.Andrew said:rcs1000 said:Here's how to maximise the current shit show:
1. VoNC in Boris Johnson
2. MPs have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn
3. Jeremy Corbyn becomes PM
4. Jeremy Corbyn secures extension
5. VoNC in Jeremy Corbyn
6. MPs have confidence in Boris Johnson
Or a series of vonc'd PMs leads us to our destiny, a Chris Williamson premiership.
Thanks.0 -
As Wollaston defects she will find the LDs are now the party of the well off and relatively rich which perhaps added to the attraction.
Survation today has the LDs leading with voters earning over £40 000, the Tories are the party of middle income earners and lead with voters earning £20 000 to £40 000 and Labour are still the party of the poor leading with voters earning under £20 0000 -
Indeed. I gave up trying to understand Vanilla’s idiosyncrasies long ago!Beibheirli_C said:
Well, it makes a change from forgetting the passwordAnabobazina said:RobD said:
Welcome back.Anabobazina said:Put Sir Keir Starmer as caretaker PM and we’re talking.
Cheers. Couldn’t quote or reply so had to re-register.RobD said:
Welcome back.Anabobazina said:Put Sir Keir Starmer as caretaker PM and we’re talking.
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I was talking about a specific example, namely the resignation of one whip and the taking up of another. In my view the definition of a bait and switch scam.Gallowgate said:
No. So if Sarah Wollaston stayed in the Tories but rebelled on every vote, would that trigger a by election? If one was kicked out of a party, would that trigger a by election?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
In the case of your examples, a serial rebel should be dealt with in a manner seen fit by their party. If they're expelled, i.e. no longer the representative the electorate voted for, I would argue this should also allow the electorate to start gathering signatures for a recall. If not enough object to the MPs new status, then that seems fair.
The unfortunate case of Sheffield Hallam is a good example of where such an addition to the recall process in the event of an MP being booted out of their party would be a good example of why this is a reasonable idea.
After all, I thought you remainers were all in favour of the electorate being allowed to change their minds?
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Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?0 -
The Tories will still have multiple times the Scottish seats they had in 2015StuartDickson said:
If you’re happy with the SCons losing half their seats, then fine by me.HYUFD said:
Not at all, it actually has SCons on 23%, only 6% down on 2017 and still 8% up on their lowpoint of 2015, SLab meanwhile has plunged to just 14%, 13% down on 2017 and 10% down on 2015 so for Labour you are correct if not the Tories.StuartDickson said:SCon/SLab slaughter again in today’s Survation:
https://www.survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Survation-Political-Poll.xlsx
SNP still only up to 40%, still only 3% up on 2017 and 10% down from its 2015 peak0 -
Johnson still to be PM on 31 October 2019?
Yes 1/14
No 5/1
(Hills)0 -
I miss a lot of it. I skip whole days / weeks here. Recently I skipped about 4 months...rottenborough said:
We have done this one to death. Sorry.Beibheirli_C said:
You are Sean_T and I claim my €5.41Byronic said:If I were an MP thar retort might have more bite. But, you know, I'm not. So it don't.
I'm just an ex male model in Richmond, expressing herself.
I cannot keep up with every little nuance
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Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.0 -
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:2 -
I still prefer Brexit with a Deal to No Deal I just believe we must Leave, in the US I would probably vote for Kasich if he ran as an Independent, I am not a Trump diehardAnabobazina said:
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.HYUFD said:
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am ToryTOPPING said:
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.HYUFD said:
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before electionTOPPING said:
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?HYUFD said:As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
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Not a diehard, maybe. But still a Trumpton, certainly (and inexplicably). Sad to see.HYUFD said:
I still prefer Brexit with a Deal to No Deal I just believe we must Leave, in the US I would probably vote for Kasich if he ran as an Independent, I am not a Trump diehardAnabobazina said:
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.HYUFD said:
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am ToryTOPPING said:
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.HYUFD said:
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before electionTOPPING said:
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?HYUFD said:As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
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No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.Anabobazina said:
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.HYUFD said:
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am ToryTOPPING said:
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.HYUFD said:
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before electionTOPPING said:
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?HYUFD said:As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
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My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)0 -
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:0 -
What's wrong with Skype?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:0 -
Simply, he is a remainer in a leaver party.Beibheirli_C said:
No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.Anabobazina said:
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.HYUFD said:
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am ToryTOPPING said:
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.HYUFD said:
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before electionTOPPING said:
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?HYUFD said:As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
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Really?rcs1000 said:
Yep, I'd also reckon Greta as a greater evil than Dr Wollaston.Anabobazina said:And yet Dr Sarah Wollaston is the personification of everything wrong with British politics according to Sean.
It is a rather poor evil contest, like that between a kitten and a puppy.
particularly when there is no shortage of truly evil people in the world.
Good luck to Greta. She scares the people who need to be scared.3 -
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.0
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I know a really excellent, and reasonably priced therapist, who specialises in that, if you need any counsel.Byronic said:
I am not SeanT. Thank God. He was an awful womanizer and a brutal Brexiteer. Yes he was often very funny. charming, persuasive, smart, witty, clever, gifted, eloquent, fascinatingly broad-chested, and damned damned sexy, but he left me cold.Foxy said:
You forgot to mention that you voted Remain this time, but glad to here that you are gender fluid. It is a demographic sorely lacking in PB land. Probably...Byronic said:
If I were an MP thar retort might have more bite. But, you know, I'm not. So it don't.IanB2 said:
Yes, these people who flip and flop between Remain and Leave are dreadful and should really have made more of an effort to work out what they think.Byronic said:
There is not a single MP I detest more than Sarah Wollaston: who joined the Leave campaign SOLELY as a way to advance her career, when she had obviously planned - with her dear friend Dave Cameron - to later defect from the same Leave campaign, and join the Remainers. At a particularly "advantageous" moment for Remain.TGOHF said:
Sadly for her, it totally failed. Because it was so painfully obvious. So she then went from ardent Leaver to reluctant Remainer to..... actively campaigning for a 2nd referendum in favour of Remain?!?!
God help us.
Sarah Wollaston is the very definition of unprincipled careerism - and, therefore, everything that is wrong with British politics. She is a traitor to herself, let alone the rest of us. She is a night-hag of hypocrisy. Hope she loses Totnes.
I'm just an ex male model in Richmond, expressing herself.
I am now transitioning. I hope I will have PB's support as I become Mrs Byronic, in coming months.
Best of luck. You seem to change sides on a regular basis anyways 2 -
Corbyn’s offer isn’t enough to stand up to scrutiny, so he won’t be able to hold the line for very long, making him look even less trustworthy to Remainers. Game on for the non-Labour opposition.0
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Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)0 -
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver BrexitRichard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
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She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.0 -
No, it needs to be GE first. A referendum takes six months, and that is too long to have PM Corbyn.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Gnu elected, A50 extension agreed (or A50 revoked)*, then government dissolved. GE follows.
* If they could find time to repeal the FTPA then that would be a useful day spent too.0 -
This is showboating, class neutral showboating, piss and wind showboating.Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:0 -
Beibheirli_C said:
No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.Anabobazina said:
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.HYUFD said:
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am ToryTOPPING said:
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.HYUFD said:
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before electionTOPPING said:
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?HYUFD said:As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
So he is one of those weirdo party loyalists that just think what they are told by HQ? Carlotta used to be unbearable for that. But even she has given up on this current lot it would seem. I find HY’s loyalty depressing.0 -
It promised a smooth and orderly Brexit, so she hasn’t abandoned it any more than Boris Johnson has.HYUFD said:
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver BrexitRichard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
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She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
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Indeed. The wonder is we haven't seen more of it. Maybe that is to come. It is the mirror image of the shift from EdM to Corbynism in policy terms. The crucial difference being it is taking place within government with all that entails.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
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Who can blame her? - everyone except LibDems?Anabobazina said:
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)0 -
... in an orderly fashion, with a negotiated deal. She's arguably still closer to that than the four I mentioned, but presumably you'd say that circumstances have changed, which excuses the PM's descent into revolutionary disaster Kipperism, given that parliament hasn't been able to agree an orderly exit. But in that case you have to accept that exactly the same change of circumstances justifies her change of position.HYUFD said:
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver BrexitRichard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
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Yes, when party loyalty become slavishly sucking up to the leader instead of standing by the principles that the party championed for decades? Thatcher, Blair?Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
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Pff is yet another language marker. File alongside tupping.Byronic said:
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.0 -
Citation needed.Byronic said:
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
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Considering the storms in the Atlantic, wind is guaranteed. The Westerly crossing is an uncomfortable one, which is why the route via the Canaries is generally preferred. This is a racing yacht with out a head, so the piss will be in a bucket.ReggieCide said:
This is showboating, class neutral showboating, piss and wind showboating.Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
So, yes piss and wind is a good description.0 -
No, it's exactly what I proposed in my Labour List article last week (and I like to think that I helped prompt it). There is nothing there limiting a referendum to an outright majority - if, as seems likely, we got another hung Parliament, Labour would be committed to a referendum with a Remain option; if enough other MPs agreed, the referendum would follow. Clearly, the Tories might win the alection, but that's democratic risk.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Swinson's response is pure politics, since she must be aware that organising a second referendum before October 31 is literally impossible. The LibDems seem more interested in scoring points than actually preventing No Deal.1 -
Some of the slagging of Greta is over the top. She's a 16 year old girl who has got off her IPhone and takes an interest for Gods sake.Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
We should be applauding and celebrating that, even if one disagrees with her stance.2 -
Just catching up with Newsnight and Dominic Grieve "carefully considering" making Jezza Prime Minister after a VONC?
Surely that's him done with the Tory Party now?0 -
LOL! Thanks for that gem, Nick.NickPalmer said:The LibDems seem more interested in scoring points than actually preventing No Deal.
2 -
It is largely Remainers and, less significantly, ERG who have prevented what you call a "smooth and orderly" Brexit, obviously discounting that No Deal Brexit or May's Brexit could be "smooth and orderly" if Remainers and ERG would just piss off.williamglenn said:
It promised a smooth and orderly Brexit, so she hasn’t abandoned it any more than Boris Johnson has.HYUFD said:
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver BrexitRichard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
0 -
Dr Sarah Wollaston, a mild mannered moderate GP from Devon is “everything that’s wrong with British politics”.Byronic said:
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
LOL.0 -
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.Byronic said:
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-united against it, so the best they can do is an extension for a GE, and a referendum after that. Having a referendum would also put Corbyn in Downing Street for much longer, so it seems like a weird thing to complain about if you think Corbyn is going to cheat.
Since his only majority is for calling the extension and the HoC could VONC him at any time, there's no danger that Corbyn will not call the election he's promising. So the only way he could screw them would be by not really asking for the extension and crashing out, which is *definitely* not what his supporters want, and would crucify him in the GE. He couldn't do much else because no majority + purdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.0 -
I think I can safely assert that HY's party loyalty is beyond question.Anabobazina said:Beibheirli_C said:
No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.Anabobazina said:
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.HYUFD said:
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am ToryTOPPING said:
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.HYUFD said:
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before electionTOPPING said:
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?HYUFD said:As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
So he is one of those weirdo party loyalists that just think what they are told by HQ? Carlotta used to be unbearable for that. But even she has given up on this current lot it would seem. I find HY’s loyalty depressing.
0 -
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?Anabobazina said:
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.0 -
I think the Tory Party has already done with him.GIN1138 said:Just catching up with Newsnight and Dominic Grieve "carefully considering" making Jezza Prime Minister after a VONC?
Surely that's him done with the Tory Party now?0 -
What is needed, to understand this, is an IQ over 38. You have that.Richard_Nabavi said:
Citation needed.Byronic said:
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Wollaston hoped for promotion under Cameron, following the expected Remain victory (a victory of 70% over 30% was, I believe, your prediction).
Her infiltration into the Leave campaign (always weird, given her soft right, europhile, Lib Demmy, west country doctor background) was just another piece of desperately shite Cameron politicking (why you so over-estimated him and Osborne, we will never know). Either way her defection was a total failure and a gaffe and she has since decided she is not just a non-Leaver, she wants a second vote and Remain, and now she joins the Lib Dems?! This is painful.
Own your mistakes, Nabavi.1 -
One can be mild mannered and still be a disingenuous hypocrite, the two are not mutually exclusive.Anabobazina said:
Dr Sarah Wollaston, a mild mannered moderate GP from Devon is “everything that’s wrong with British politics”.Byronic said:
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
LOL.0 -
Since I have been away Have You Used Favourable Data has transitioned to a Trumpton, and Sean has transitioned to a woman.
Those who say PBers never change are clearly WRONG.0 -
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.Beibheirli_C said:
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.0 -
Corbyn plans to call no-confidence vote to defeat no-deal
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49352250
The responses from the party leaders is basically...."that's a no from me"...0 -
I meant it metaphorically not literally, as you are well aware, but I'm happy to know that my description is accurate both metaphorically and literallyFoxy said:
Considering the storms in the Atlantic, wind is guaranteed. The Westerly crossing is an uncomfortable one, which is why the route via the Canaries is generally preferred. This is a racing yacht with out a head, so the piss will be in a bucket.ReggieCide said:
This is showboating, class neutral showboating, piss and wind showboating.Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
So, yes piss and wind is a good description.0 -
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.YBarddCwsc said:
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.1 -
It seems a natural move from my perspective.ReggieCide said:
Who can blame her? - everyone except LibDems?Anabobazina said:
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)0 -
Well indeed. I have suggested on PB that round the world first class travel and five star accommodation for oh so important meetings with clients might not be essential...kyf_100 said:
What's wrong with Skype?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
Apparently I "don't understand how business works."0 -
I like it, but I have once concern:kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
Simply, this dramatically increases the power of whips in our system.1 -
This is an excellent definition of showboating. Thank you.Cyclefree said:
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.Beibheirli_C said:
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.0 -
Actually, on reflection, it WOULD be possible, if Corbyn had a government lasting several months instead of the caretaker option that he's proposing - but I bet that if he proposed that, Swinson would reject it as well, since it would certainly mean the need to have a budget and other urgent measures in the meantime.NickPalmer said:<
Swinson's response is pure politics, since she must be aware that organising a second referendum before October 31 is literally impossible. The LibDems seem more interested in scoring points than actually preventing No Deal.
She will be losing tactical Labour votes quickly at this rate.
0 -
You’re quite entitled to campaign for a change in current legislation.kyf_100 said:
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?Anabobazina said:
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.
But as it’s quite likely we’ll have a general election shortly, any such hypothetical petition, were it to have existed, would probably be overtaken by events anyway.0 -
It’s not how our system works. We elect MPs, no parties - ideally we’d bin parties altogether as all they do is encourage weaselling sycophancy.kyf_100 said:
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?Anabobazina said:
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.0 -
I understand what you are alleging about her. I was hoping, no doubt in vain, that you might have some evidence which might support it.Byronic said:
What is needed, to understand this, is an IQ over 38. You have that.Richard_Nabavi said:
Citation needed.Byronic said:
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Wollaston hoped for promotion under Cameron, following the expected Remain victory (a victory of 70% over 30% was, I believe, your prediction).
Her infiltration into the Leave campaign (always weird, given her soft right, europhile, Lib Demmy, west country doctor background) was just another piece of desperately shite Cameron politicking (why you so over-estimated him and Osborne, we will never know). Either way her defection was a total failure and a gaffe and she has since decided she is not just a non-Leaver, she wants a second vote and Remain, and now she joins the Lib Dems?! This is painful.
Own your mistakes, Nabavi.
To be clear, I don't particularly like her, and I think she has been flakey on Brexit. I very much disagree with her in that she voted against the deal, and therefore bears some responsibility for the mess we are in. But no more - in fact less - than the PM, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.0 -
Okayyyyyy,..edmundintokyo said:
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.Byronic said:
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.Cyclefree said:
Corbywhat else would be on the ballot?Scott_P said:
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-united against it, so the best they can do is an extension for a GE, and a referendum after that. Having a referendum would also put Corbyn in Downing Street for much longer, so it seems like a weird thing to complain about if you think Corbyn is going to cheat.
Since his only majority is for calling the extension and the HoC could VONC him at any time, there's no danger that Corbyn will not call the election he's promising. So the only way he could screw them would be by not really asking for the extension and crashing out, which is *definitely* not what his supporters want, and would crucify him in the GE. He couldn't do much else because no majority + purdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.
You're not dim, I respect your opinion.
The trouble is it took you six paragraphs to explain Jezza's position and I'm still not quite convinced, or even clear about it. So even if you are right, this is a very hard sell. I can see why the LDs are saying PAH!
Corbyn needs to muscle up and say I will lead a six month government into a new vote! End!
But he won't. Because he doesn't want to.0 -
kyf_100 said:
One can be mild mannered and still be a disingenuous hypocrite, the two are not mutually exclusive.Anabobazina said:
Dr Sarah Wollaston, a mild mannered moderate GP from Devon is “everything that’s wrong with British politics”.Byronic said:
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.Richard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
LOL.
Lol. I think there might be bigger fish to fry.0 -
I would allow recall petitions at the will of the electorate.kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
However, making only your limited change would be bad. It would give the whips another means to threaten independent-minded MPs, which in my mind would distance MPs from their electorate.0 -
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason.Cyclefree said:
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.Beibheirli_C said:
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
1 -
It promised 'we will get on with the job and get Britain out of the European Union' so she haswilliamglenn said:
It promised a smooth and orderly Brexit, so she hasn’t abandoned it any more than Boris Johnson has.HYUFD said:
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver BrexitRichard_Nabavi said:Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
0 -
Conferences had a function once -- but no more.Gabs2 said:
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.YBarddCwsc said:
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
You obviously don't have to be in the same place anymore to stimulate discussion and thought generation. It is much more efficient to use video conferencing. For a start, Greta is wasting a huge amount of time travelling to give a speech -- which would be seen by more people if she stayed at home and put it on youtube.
The only reason conferences still exist is people love to travel. Of course, it is much more fun flying to New York (or zero-carbon yachting to NYC) and staying in a smart hotel on Fifth Avenue than doing hard thinking about climate change.
Conferences (like air travel) are increasing year on year, and will continue to do so.
But, there is no need for them to do so.0 -
A fair point. I'd allow them freely too.OblitusSumMe said:
I would allow recall petitions at the will of the electorate.kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
However, making only your limited change would be bad. It would give the whips another means to threaten independent-minded MPs, which in my mind would distance MPs from their electorate.0 -
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?edmundintokyo said:
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.Byronic said:
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-united against it, so the best they can do is an extension for a GE, and a referendum after that. Having a referendum would also put Corbyn in Downing Street for much longer, so it seems like a weird thing to complain about if you think Corbyn is going to cheat.
Since his only majority is for calling the extension and the HoC could VONC him at any time, there's no danger that Corbyn will not call the election he's promising. So the only way he could screw them would be by not really asking for the extension and crashing out, which is *definitely* not what his supporters want, and would crucify him in the GE. He couldn't do much else because no majority + purdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.
0 -
It's not us she's, or her "advisers" are, after impressing, it's the moron media.Nigelb said:
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason.Cyclefree said:
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.Beibheirli_C said:
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.0 -
It is self defeating though. Now Ms Thunberg can be dismissed as another virtue-signalling celeb who likes to enjoy private jet-esque, mega-yachty pleasures while condemning the plebs for using pay-for-your-peanuts Ryanair.Nigelb said:
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason.Cyclefree said:
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.Beibheirli_C said:
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
Just like Prince Harry, Emma Thompson, et al.0 -
Effective publicity for Greta, yes.Nigelb said:
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason.Cyclefree said:
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.Beibheirli_C said:
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
Effective publicity for climate change, I rather doubt it.0 -
It didn't take 6 paragraphs to explain Corbyn's position, it took six paragraphs to look at all the different ways he could ratfuck the other parties and see why all of them were blocked. 6 paragraphs is on the short side as ratfuckery-proofing goes, because the arts of political ratfuckery are numerous and elaborate.Byronic said:
The trouble is it took you six paragraphs to explain Jezza's position and I'm still not quite convinced, or even clear about it. So even if you are right, this is a very hard sell. I can see why the LDs are saying PAH!
Corbyn needs to muscle up and say I will lead a six month government into a new vote! End!
But he won't. Because he doesn't want to.
That said, it's obviously going to be a hard sell for LDs, and even harder for VONC-curious Tories. A different caretaker might be better, but even if the Labour front bench will go for that, it's not clear whether they could take all their leave-supporting MPs with them.0 -
I honestly don't know what so many MPs want. They claim to want so many things, yet when confronted with the probable costs of doing those things they act almost affronted at the idea.Scott_P said:
Football club like tribalism, simple as.Anabobazina said:
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.HYUFD said:
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am ToryTOPPING said:
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.HYUFD said:
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before electionTOPPING said:
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?HYUFD said:As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
0 -
That is an absolute lie. On the ballot paper, you put your cross beside a prospective mp _and_ their party name. If you want to suggest people vote for MPs only then party names and symbols should be banned from ballot papers. Until such a change is made, people vote for a person - and a party. When that person ceases to belong to the party they were elected under there is a reasonable case for returning the decision of who represents them to the electorate.Anabobazina said:
It’s not how our system works. We elect MPs, no parties - ideally we’d bin parties altogether as all they do is encourage weaselling sycophancy.kyf_100 said:
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?Anabobazina said:
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.kyf_100 said:
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.0 -
Yes, because elevating someone to that office gives them more credibility and legitimizes them. And putting an anti-Semitic bigot like Corbyn as PM would be declaring to the entire Jewish population that parliament cares more about Brexit than standing in solidarity with us. After they voted three times against a deal.Chris said:
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?edmundintokyo said:
urdah.Byronic said:
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.0 -
This is the key. I can accept plenty of publicity stunts, while to an extent distracting as being about the person not the message, can be effective at keeping the intended topic at the forefront of peoples' minds. But at some point stunts do lose impact, even ones for good causes.YBarddCwsc said:
Effective publicity for Greta, yes.Nigelb said:
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason.Cyclefree said:
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.Beibheirli_C said:
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
Effective publicity for climate change, I rather doubt it.0 -
Yup, exactly. In practical terms it doesn't matter. There's just an emotional problem (lifelong Tories voting for Corbyn PM) and a political problem (LDs seen to back Corbyn lose ex-Tories).Chris said:
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?0 -
Probably not, but it is the same as why people fight even a Brexit which others say is Brexit in name only - even if the reality is barely different or in this case the title not that important if the plan is immediate election, a lot of people don't want that rubicon crossed, of people seeing even a BINO happen or, in this case, seeing the words Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn. Psycologically it is feared.Chris said:
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?edmundintokyo said:
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.Byronic said:
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.Cyclefree said:
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.Scott_P said:
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-uout this move.0 -
The Lib Dems are interested in stopping Brexit –-- on condition that it is they who did so.edmundintokyo said:
It didn't take 6 paragraphs to explain Corbyn's position, it took six paragraphs to look at all the different ways he could ratfuck the other parties and see why all of them were blocked. 6 paragraphs is on the short side as ratfuckery-proofing goes, because the arts of political ratfuckery are numerous and elaborate.Byronic said:
The trouble is it took you six paragraphs to explain Jezza's position and I'm still not quite convinced, or even clear about it. So even if you are right, this is a very hard sell. I can see why the LDs are saying PAH!
Corbyn needs to muscle up and say I will lead a six month government into a new vote! End!
But he won't. Because he doesn't want to.
That said, it's obviously going to be a hard sell for LDs, and even harder for VONC-curious Tories. A different caretaker might be better, but even if the Labour front bench will go for that, it's not clear whether they could take all their leave-supporting MPs with them.
The absolutely last thing the LibDems want is for Labour to stop Brexit.0 -
I video conference all the time for work. The idea that it is as effective as in-person meeting is ridiculous. I have to travel a lot and hate it . I would much rsther stay at home but it is necessary to be effective.YBarddCwsc said:
Conferences had a function once -- but no more.Gabs2 said:
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.YBarddCwsc said:
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
You obviously don't have to be in the same place anymore to stimulate discussion and thought generation. It is much more efficient to use video conferencing. For a start, Greta is wasting a huge amount of time travelling to give a speech -- which would be seen by more people if she stayed at home and put it on youtube.
The only reason conferences still exist is people love to travel. Of course, it is much more fun flying to New York (or zero-carbon yachting to NYC) and staying in a smart hotel on Fifth Avenue than doing hard thinking about climate change.
Conferences (like air travel) are increasing year on year, and will continue to do so.
But, there is no need for them to do so.1 -
And a moral problem in putting a man who has commemorated Jew-killers in charge of almost a million British Jews.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, exactly. In practical terms it doesn't matter. There's just an emotional problem (lifelong Tories voting for Corbyn PM) and a political problem (LDs seen to back Corbyn lose ex-Tories).Chris said:
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?0 -
Not a fan myself, though as you say there are times it is necessary, but a bit like electronic voting many of the apparent benefits seem to be taken on faith as far as I can see. A little hilariously the government pledged something like 10 years ago to allow remote attendance of council meetings, and it still hasn't happened. In England anyway, I believe it is legal to do so in Wales, and possibly Scotland, though I don't know if any actually operate in such a way.Gabs2 said:
I video conference all the time for work. The idea that it is as effective as in-person meeting is ridiculous. I have to travel a lot and hate it . I would much rsther stay at home but it is necessary to be effective.YBarddCwsc said:
Conferences had a function once -- but no more.Gabs2 said:
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.YBarddCwsc said:
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).Gabs2 said:
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?kyf_100 said:
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...Theuniondivvie said:
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
You obviously don't have to be in the same place anymore to stimulate discussion and thought generation. It is much more efficient to use video conferencing. For a start, Greta is wasting a huge amount of time travelling to give a speech -- which would be seen by more people if she stayed at home and put it on youtube.
The only reason conferences still exist is people love to travel. Of course, it is much more fun flying to New York (or zero-carbon yachting to NYC) and staying in a smart hotel on Fifth Avenue than doing hard thinking about climate change.
Conferences (like air travel) are increasing year on year, and will continue to do so.
But, there is no need for them to do so.0 -
I think you're right here. The trouble is it's hard to square that with the electorate voting for one thing (explicitly promised in writing on the ballot paper) and ending up with another.rcs1000 said:
I like it, but I have once concern:kyf_100 said:
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.rcs1000 said:
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?kyf_100 said:
Are you thick?Gallowgate said:
Again, how would that work?kyf_100 said:
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.Gallowgate said:
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
Simply, this dramatically increases the power of whips in our system.
You'd either have to remove party names and symbols from ballot papers - a courageous choice, as sir humphrey might say - or trust the electorate that if an MP were to make a principled stand against their party, enough of the electorate would back them so that they would win as an independent or the recall campaign would fail to secure enough votes to remove them. Either way I'm generally in favour of any move that grants the electorate more opportunities to endorse or reject who govern them.1 -
Presumably, but whatever the impact on the Tories it is an encouraging statement from him - whether one likes that plan or not there are a lot of MPs whose words suggest they should be willing to take certain actions, even at the cost of their careers, which they don't live up to. As much as I dislike Grieve if he fears and hates Brexit as much as he seems to (any Brexit, lets not pretend he cares what type) then even making Corbyn PM must be something he should consider doing. If he doesn't, he is acknowledging Brexit is not as bad as he claims it is.GIN1138 said:Just catching up with Newsnight and Dominic Grieve "carefully considering" making Jezza Prime Minister after a VONC?
Surely that's him done with the Tory Party now?0 -
The LDs have been telling us incessantly that the most important thing in the world is to block Brexit, and particularly a No Deal Brexit.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, exactly. In practical terms it doesn't matter. There's just an emotional problem (lifelong Tories voting for Corbyn PM) and a political problem (LDs seen to back Corbyn lose ex-Tories).Chris said:
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?
If a majority of MPs have the will, this is a straightforward way of blocking No Deal - or at least averting it for the time being - and probably coupling it with a general election will also give them the best chance of the EU agreeing an extension.
If the Lib Dems sabotage it and we leave with No Deal, then I think people will be entirely justified in never believing a word they say again.0
This discussion has been closed.