1. VoNC in Boris Johnson 2. MPs have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn 3. Jeremy Corbyn becomes PM 4. Jeremy Corbyn secures extension 5. VoNC in Jeremy Corbyn 6. MPs have confidence in Boris Johnson
Or a series of vonc'd PMs leads us to our destiny, a Chris Williamson premiership.
Brilliant by Jezza - killed off the VONC and ensured No Deal in a single deft stroke. Boris will be paralysed with grief tonight.
Nah, we have just entered the negotiation period on how the post VONC government is to be formed..
Well, it wont have Jezza anywhere near it, unless there are some fresh vegetables to be delivered by one of those organic veg box on your doorstep schemes.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
There is not a single MP I detest more than Sarah Wollaston: who joined the Leave campaign SOLELY as a way to advance her career, when she had obviously planned - with her dear friend Dave Cameron - to later defect from the same Leave campaign, and join the Remainers. At a particularly "advantageous" moment for Remain.
Sadly for her, it totally failed. Because it was so painfully obvious. So she then went from ardent Leaver to reluctant Remainer to..... actively campaigning for a 2nd referendum in favour of Remain?!?!
God help us.
Sarah Wollaston is the very definition of unprincipled careerism - and, therefore, everything that is wrong with British politics. She is a traitor to herself, let alone the rest of us. She is a night-hag of hypocrisy. Hope she loses Totnes.
Yes, these people who flip and flop between Remain and Leave are dreadful and should really have made more of an effort to work out what they think.
If I were an MP thar retort might have more bite. But, you know, I'm not. So it don't.
I'm just an ex male model in Richmond, expressing herself.
You forgot to mention that you voted Remain this time, but glad to here that you are gender fluid. It is a demographic sorely lacking in PB land. Probably...
I am not SeanT. Thank God. He was an awful womanizer and a brutal Brexiteer. Yes he was often very funny. charming, persuasive, smart, witty, clever, gifted, eloquent, fascinatingly broad-chested, and damned damned sexy, but he left me cold.
I am now transitioning. I hope I will have PB's support as I become Mrs Byronic, in coming months.
1. VoNC in Boris Johnson 2. MPs have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn 3. Jeremy Corbyn becomes PM 4. Jeremy Corbyn secures extension 5. VoNC in Jeremy Corbyn 6. MPs have confidence in Boris Johnson
Or a series of vonc'd PMs leads us to our destiny, a Chris Williamson premiership.
Oh God. In the Parthenon of shit fu*ks that we would end up with, this one did not trouble my sleepless nights.
As Wollaston defects she will find the LDs are now the party of the well off and relatively rich which perhaps added to the attraction.
Survation today has the LDs leading with voters earning over £40 000, the Tories are the party of middle income earners and lead with voters earning £20 000 to £40 000 and Labour are still the party of the poor leading with voters earning under £20 000
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
No. So if Sarah Wollaston stayed in the Tories but rebelled on every vote, would that trigger a by election? If one was kicked out of a party, would that trigger a by election?
I was talking about a specific example, namely the resignation of one whip and the taking up of another. In my view the definition of a bait and switch scam.
In the case of your examples, a serial rebel should be dealt with in a manner seen fit by their party. If they're expelled, i.e. no longer the representative the electorate voted for, I would argue this should also allow the electorate to start gathering signatures for a recall. If not enough object to the MPs new status, then that seems fair.
The unfortunate case of Sheffield Hallam is a good example of where such an addition to the recall process in the event of an MP being booted out of their party would be a good example of why this is a reasonable idea.
After all, I thought you remainers were all in favour of the electorate being allowed to change their minds?
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Isn't the surest way to prevent no deal to vote for the deal?
Exactly. McDonnell and Corbyn, after voting for Article 50, voted three times against the Deal. They are as responsible as anyone else for a crash out.
Not at all, it actually has SCons on 23%, only 6% down on 2017 and still 8% up on their lowpoint of 2015, SLab meanwhile has plunged to just 14%, 13% down on 2017 and 10% down on 2015 so for Labour you are correct if not the Tories.
SNP still only up to 40%, still only 3% up on 2017 and 10% down from its 2015 peak
If you’re happy with the SCons losing half their seats, then fine by me.
The Tories will still have multiple times the Scottish seats they had in 2015
Isn't the surest way to prevent no deal to vote for the deal?
OK, we now we understand. John McD is directing this one (is Seamus away in Cuba?). Now if UK No Deals - it will be entirely the fault of opposition MPs and Hammond because they didn't sign up with Jezza.
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before election
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am Tory
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.
I still prefer Brexit with a Deal to No Deal I just believe we must Leave, in the US I would probably vote for Kasich if he ran as an Independent, I am not a Trump diehard
As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before election
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am Tory
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.
I still prefer Brexit with a Deal to No Deal I just believe we must Leave, in the US I would probably vote for Kasich if he ran as an Independent, I am not a Trump diehard
Not a diehard, maybe. But still a Trumpton, certainly (and inexplicably). Sad to see.
As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before election
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am Tory
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.
No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before election
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am Tory
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.
No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
There is not a single MP I detest more than Sarah Wollaston: who joined the Leave campaign SOLELY as a way to advance her career, when she had obviously planned - with her dear friend Dave Cameron - to later defect from the same Leave campaign, and join the Remainers. At a particularly "advantageous" moment for Remain.
Sadly for her, it totally failed. Because it was so painfully obvious. So she then went from ardent Leaver to reluctant Remainer to..... actively campaigning for a 2nd referendum in favour of Remain?!?!
God help us.
Sarah Wollaston is the very definition of unprincipled careerism - and, therefore, everything that is wrong with British politics. She is a traitor to herself, let alone the rest of us. She is a night-hag of hypocrisy. Hope she loses Totnes.
Yes, these people who flip and flop between Remain and Leave are dreadful and should really have made more of an effort to work out what they think.
If I were an MP thar retort might have more bite. But, you know, I'm not. So it don't.
I'm just an ex male model in Richmond, expressing herself.
You forgot to mention that you voted Remain this time, but glad to here that you are gender fluid. It is a demographic sorely lacking in PB land. Probably...
I am not SeanT. Thank God. He was an awful womanizer and a brutal Brexiteer. Yes he was often very funny. charming, persuasive, smart, witty, clever, gifted, eloquent, fascinatingly broad-chested, and damned damned sexy, but he left me cold.
I am now transitioning. I hope I will have PB's support as I become Mrs Byronic, in coming months.
I know a really excellent, and reasonably priced therapist, who specialises in that, if you need any counsel. Best of luck. You seem to change sides on a regular basis anyways
Corbyn’s offer isn’t enough to stand up to scrutiny, so he won’t be able to hold the line for very long, making him look even less trustworthy to Remainers. Game on for the non-Labour opposition.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver Brexit
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
No, it needs to be GE first. A referendum takes six months, and that is too long to have PM Corbyn.
Gnu elected, A50 extension agreed (or A50 revoked)*, then government dissolved. GE follows.
* If they could find time to repeal the FTPA then that would be a useful day spent too.
As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before election
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am Tory
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.
No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.
So he is one of those weirdo party loyalists that just think what they are told by HQ? Carlotta used to be unbearable for that. But even she has given up on this current lot it would seem. I find HY’s loyalty depressing.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver Brexit
It promised a smooth and orderly Brexit, so she hasn’t abandoned it any more than Boris Johnson has.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Indeed. The wonder is we haven't seen more of it. Maybe that is to come. It is the mirror image of the shift from EdM to Corbynism in policy terms. The crucial difference being it is taking place within government with all that entails.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver Brexit
... in an orderly fashion, with a negotiated deal. She's arguably still closer to that than the four I mentioned, but presumably you'd say that circumstances have changed, which excuses the PM's descent into revolutionary disaster Kipperism, given that parliament hasn't been able to agree an orderly exit. But in that case you have to accept that exactly the same change of circumstances justifies her change of position.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Yes, when party loyalty become slavishly sucking up to the leader instead of standing by the principles that the party championed for decades? Thatcher, Blair?
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
Pff is yet another language marker. File alongside tupping.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
This is showboating, class neutral showboating, piss and wind showboating.
Considering the storms in the Atlantic, wind is guaranteed. The Westerly crossing is an uncomfortable one, which is why the route via the Canaries is generally preferred. This is a racing yacht with out a head, so the piss will be in a bucket.
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
No, it's exactly what I proposed in my Labour List article last week (and I like to think that I helped prompt it). There is nothing there limiting a referendum to an outright majority - if, as seems likely, we got another hung Parliament, Labour would be committed to a referendum with a Remain option; if enough other MPs agreed, the referendum would follow. Clearly, the Tories might win the alection, but that's democratic risk.
Swinson's response is pure politics, since she must be aware that organising a second referendum before October 31 is literally impossible. The LibDems seem more interested in scoring points than actually preventing No Deal.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
Some of the slagging of Greta is over the top. She's a 16 year old girl who has got off her IPhone and takes an interest for Gods sake. We should be applauding and celebrating that, even if one disagrees with her stance.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver Brexit
It promised a smooth and orderly Brexit, so she hasn’t abandoned it any more than Boris Johnson has.
It is largely Remainers and, less significantly, ERG who have prevented what you call a "smooth and orderly" Brexit, obviously discounting that No Deal Brexit or May's Brexit could be "smooth and orderly" if Remainers and ERG would just piss off.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
Dr Sarah Wollaston, a mild mannered moderate GP from Devon is “everything that’s wrong with British politics”.
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-united against it, so the best they can do is an extension for a GE, and a referendum after that. Having a referendum would also put Corbyn in Downing Street for much longer, so it seems like a weird thing to complain about if you think Corbyn is going to cheat.
Since his only majority is for calling the extension and the HoC could VONC him at any time, there's no danger that Corbyn will not call the election he's promising. So the only way he could screw them would be by not really asking for the extension and crashing out, which is *definitely* not what his supporters want, and would crucify him in the GE. He couldn't do much else because no majority + purdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.
As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before election
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am Tory
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.
No, HY is still a Tory. The real problem is that the Tory party has moved to the right.
So he is one of those weirdo party loyalists that just think what they are told by HQ? Carlotta used to be unbearable for that. But even she has given up on this current lot it would seem. I find HY’s loyalty depressing.
I think I can safely assert that HY's party loyalty is beyond question.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause.
Citation needed.
What is needed, to understand this, is an IQ over 38. You have that.
Wollaston hoped for promotion under Cameron, following the expected Remain victory (a victory of 70% over 30% was, I believe, your prediction).
Her infiltration into the Leave campaign (always weird, given her soft right, europhile, Lib Demmy, west country doctor background) was just another piece of desperately shite Cameron politicking (why you so over-estimated him and Osborne, we will never know). Either way her defection was a total failure and a gaffe and she has since decided she is not just a non-Leaver, she wants a second vote and Remain, and now she joins the Lib Dems?! This is painful.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
Dr Sarah Wollaston, a mild mannered moderate GP from Devon is “everything that’s wrong with British politics”.
LOL.
One can be mild mannered and still be a disingenuous hypocrite, the two are not mutually exclusive.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
This is showboating, class neutral showboating, piss and wind showboating.
Considering the storms in the Atlantic, wind is guaranteed. The Westerly crossing is an uncomfortable one, which is why the route via the Canaries is generally preferred. This is a racing yacht with out a head, so the piss will be in a bucket.
So, yes piss and wind is a good description.
I meant it metaphorically not literally, as you are well aware, but I'm happy to know that my description is accurate both metaphorically and literally
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
What's wrong with Skype?
Well indeed. I have suggested on PB that round the world first class travel and five star accommodation for oh so important meetings with clients might not be essential... Apparently I "don't understand how business works."
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
I like it, but I have once concern:
Simply, this dramatically increases the power of whips in our system.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
This is an excellent definition of showboating. Thank you.
< Swinson's response is pure politics, since she must be aware that organising a second referendum before October 31 is literally impossible. The LibDems seem more interested in scoring points than actually preventing No Deal.
Actually, on reflection, it WOULD be possible, if Corbyn had a government lasting several months instead of the caretaker option that he's proposing - but I bet that if he proposed that, Swinson would reject it as well, since it would certainly mean the need to have a budget and other urgent measures in the meantime.
She will be losing tactical Labour votes quickly at this rate.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.
You’re quite entitled to campaign for a change in current legislation.
But as it’s quite likely we’ll have a general election shortly, any such hypothetical petition, were it to have existed, would probably be overtaken by events anyway.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.
It’s not how our system works. We elect MPs, no parties - ideally we’d bin parties altogether as all they do is encourage weaselling sycophancy.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause.
Citation needed.
What is needed, to understand this, is an IQ over 38. You have that.
Wollaston hoped for promotion under Cameron, following the expected Remain victory (a victory of 70% over 30% was, I believe, your prediction).
Her infiltration into the Leave campaign (always weird, given her soft right, europhile, Lib Demmy, west country doctor background) was just another piece of desperately shite Cameron politicking (why you so over-estimated him and Osborne, we will never know). Either way her defection was a total failure and a gaffe and she has since decided she is not just a non-Leaver, she wants a second vote and Remain, and now she joins the Lib Dems?! This is painful.
Own your mistakes, Nabavi.
I understand what you are alleging about her. I was hoping, no doubt in vain, that you might have some evidence which might support it.
To be clear, I don't particularly like her, and I think she has been flakey on Brexit. I very much disagree with her in that she voted against the deal, and therefore bears some responsibility for the mess we are in. But no more - in fact less - than the PM, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-united against it, so the best they can do is an extension for a GE, and a referendum after that. Having a referendum would also put Corbyn in Downing Street for much longer, so it seems like a weird thing to complain about if you think Corbyn is going to cheat.
Since his only majority is for calling the extension and the HoC could VONC him at any time, there's no danger that Corbyn will not call the election he's promising. So the only way he could screw them would be by not really asking for the extension and crashing out, which is *definitely* not what his supporters want, and would crucify him in the GE. He couldn't do much else because no majority + purdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.
Okayyyyyy,..
You're not dim, I respect your opinion.
The trouble is it took you six paragraphs to explain Jezza's position and I'm still not quite convinced, or even clear about it. So even if you are right, this is a very hard sell. I can see why the LDs are saying PAH!
Corbyn needs to muscle up and say I will lead a six month government into a new vote! End!
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
She actively joined and campaigned for Leave, for fuck's sake. Solely so she could then defect, at an opportune moment, and damage the Leaver cause. Thereby advancing her career. Pff.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
Dr Sarah Wollaston, a mild mannered moderate GP from Devon is “everything that’s wrong with British politics”.
LOL.
One can be mild mannered and still be a disingenuous hypocrite, the two are not mutually exclusive.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
I would allow recall petitions at the will of the electorate.
However, making only your limited change would be bad. It would give the whips another means to threaten independent-minded MPs, which in my mind would distance MPs from their electorate.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason. Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
Sarah Wollaston hasn't crossed the floor today, she's shuffled along the bench. It seems a bit odd that she's getting so much vitriol, given that her position today is much more similar to the manifesto she was elected on in 2010 than is that of the PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
Not the manifesto she was elected on in 2017 though which promised to deliver Brexit
It promised a smooth and orderly Brexit, so she hasn’t abandoned it any more than Boris Johnson has.
It promised 'we will get on with the job and get Britain out of the European Union' so she has
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.
Conferences had a function once -- but no more.
You obviously don't have to be in the same place anymore to stimulate discussion and thought generation. It is much more efficient to use video conferencing. For a start, Greta is wasting a huge amount of time travelling to give a speech -- which would be seen by more people if she stayed at home and put it on youtube.
The only reason conferences still exist is people love to travel. Of course, it is much more fun flying to New York (or zero-carbon yachting to NYC) and staying in a smart hotel on Fifth Avenue than doing hard thinking about climate change.
Conferences (like air travel) are increasing year on year, and will continue to do so.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
I would allow recall petitions at the will of the electorate.
However, making only your limited change would be bad. It would give the whips another means to threaten independent-minded MPs, which in my mind would distance MPs from their electorate.
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-united against it, so the best they can do is an extension for a GE, and a referendum after that. Having a referendum would also put Corbyn in Downing Street for much longer, so it seems like a weird thing to complain about if you think Corbyn is going to cheat.
Since his only majority is for calling the extension and the HoC could VONC him at any time, there's no danger that Corbyn will not call the election he's promising. So the only way he could screw them would be by not really asking for the extension and crashing out, which is *definitely* not what his supporters want, and would crucify him in the GE. He couldn't do much else because no majority + purdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason. Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
It's not us she's, or her "advisers" are, after impressing, it's the moron media.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason. Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
It is self defeating though. Now Ms Thunberg can be dismissed as another virtue-signalling celeb who likes to enjoy private jet-esque, mega-yachty pleasures while condemning the plebs for using pay-for-your-peanuts Ryanair.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason. Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
Effective publicity for Greta, yes.
Effective publicity for climate change, I rather doubt it.
The trouble is it took you six paragraphs to explain Jezza's position and I'm still not quite convinced, or even clear about it. So even if you are right, this is a very hard sell. I can see why the LDs are saying PAH!
Corbyn needs to muscle up and say I will lead a six month government into a new vote! End!
But he won't. Because he doesn't want to.
It didn't take 6 paragraphs to explain Corbyn's position, it took six paragraphs to look at all the different ways he could ratfuck the other parties and see why all of them were blocked. 6 paragraphs is on the short side as ratfuckery-proofing goes, because the arts of political ratfuckery are numerous and elaborate.
That said, it's obviously going to be a hard sell for LDs, and even harder for VONC-curious Tories. A different caretaker might be better, but even if the Labour front bench will go for that, it's not clear whether they could take all their leave-supporting MPs with them.
I honestly don't know what so many MPs want. They claim to want so many things, yet when confronted with the probable costs of doing those things they act almost affronted at the idea.
As far as I am aware Wollaston had no real history of campaigning for the Tories prior to selection in 2010, only joining the party in 2006 and while she was reasonably happy with Cameron and the Coalition with the LDs she struck me as more of a liberal than a conservative and very anti Brexit so this is no major surprise
Let's see. Anti-brexit then leaves the Conservative Party. What an honourable move. But wait. You are anti-brexit. When exactly will you be leaving the Conservative Party?
No I respect the Leave result Deal or No Deal, I also have a long history of campaigning for the party unlike Wollaston who only joined the party 4 years before election
You are anti-Brexit. You campaigned for the party when it was sensible. Just like I did. The party has changed. Someone of your integrity, steadfastness, and resolve has of course not changed their position. You are in the wrong party.
I am not Brexit Party, I am not LD, I am Tory
When I started posting you were a pro-European Clintonite soft Tory, a moderate. These days you are a Brexiteer Trumpton. A scary journey for reasons unclear.
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
Her politics have changed just barely since elected, her (former) party has undergone a Mr Hyde-sequel transformation. Who can blame her?
Why not let the people who elected her decide if they want to recall her?
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.
It’s not how our system works. We elect MPs, no parties - ideally we’d bin parties altogether as all they do is encourage weaselling sycophancy.
That is an absolute lie. On the ballot paper, you put your cross beside a prospective mp _and_ their party name. If you want to suggest people vote for MPs only then party names and symbols should be banned from ballot papers. Until such a change is made, people vote for a person - and a party. When that person ceases to belong to the party they were elected under there is a reasonable case for returning the decision of who represents them to the electorate.
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
urdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?
Yes, because elevating someone to that office gives them more credibility and legitimizes them. And putting an anti-Semitic bigot like Corbyn as PM would be declaring to the entire Jewish population that parliament cares more about Brexit than standing in solidarity with us. After they voted three times against a deal.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
I wonder how they would react if she had travelled in a wooden yacht?
Absolutely no reason for her to travel to give a talk. That’s what video links are for. I’ve been using video links for years to give talks to places as far away Australia, Singapore, Japan and HK, let alone NY.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
The publicity stunt is precisely the reason. Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
Effective publicity for Greta, yes.
Effective publicity for climate change, I rather doubt it.
This is the key. I can accept plenty of publicity stunts, while to an extent distracting as being about the person not the message, can be effective at keeping the intended topic at the forefront of peoples' minds. But at some point stunts do lose impact, even ones for good causes.
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?
Yup, exactly. In practical terms it doesn't matter. There's just an emotional problem (lifelong Tories voting for Corbyn PM) and a political problem (LDs seen to back Corbyn lose ex-Tories).
Corbyn’s offer is less than it seems. The caretaker government is not there for the purpose of having a referendum with a Remain option. No. It is there for the purpose of a GE and only if Labour win an outright majority will there be a referendum. Believe that and you’ll believe anything. If the Tories won the GE on a No Deal basis you’d be back where we are today. Only this time the No Dealers would have a fresh mandate. Or there could be yet another hung Parliament.
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Yes, Corbyn's "offer" falls apart on the first analysis. It makes him look even more shifty to Remainers.
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
I'm a remainer and although I've found Corbyn weaselly and untrustworthy on Brexit, this doesn't actually look shifty.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-uout this move.
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?
Probably not, but it is the same as why people fight even a Brexit which others say is Brexit in name only - even if the reality is barely different or in this case the title not that important if the plan is immediate election, a lot of people don't want that rubicon crossed, of people seeing even a BINO happen or, in this case, seeing the words Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn. Psycologically it is feared.
The trouble is it took you six paragraphs to explain Jezza's position and I'm still not quite convinced, or even clear about it. So even if you are right, this is a very hard sell. I can see why the LDs are saying PAH!
Corbyn needs to muscle up and say I will lead a six month government into a new vote! End!
But he won't. Because he doesn't want to.
It didn't take 6 paragraphs to explain Corbyn's position, it took six paragraphs to look at all the different ways he could ratfuck the other parties and see why all of them were blocked. 6 paragraphs is on the short side as ratfuckery-proofing goes, because the arts of political ratfuckery are numerous and elaborate.
That said, it's obviously going to be a hard sell for LDs, and even harder for VONC-curious Tories. A different caretaker might be better, but even if the Labour front bench will go for that, it's not clear whether they could take all their leave-supporting MPs with them.
The Lib Dems are interested in stopping Brexit –-- on condition that it is they who did so.
The absolutely last thing the LibDems want is for Labour to stop Brexit.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.
Conferences had a function once -- but no more.
You obviously don't have to be in the same place anymore to stimulate discussion and thought generation. It is much more efficient to use video conferencing. For a start, Greta is wasting a huge amount of time travelling to give a speech -- which would be seen by more people if she stayed at home and put it on youtube.
The only reason conferences still exist is people love to travel. Of course, it is much more fun flying to New York (or zero-carbon yachting to NYC) and staying in a smart hotel on Fifth Avenue than doing hard thinking about climate change.
Conferences (like air travel) are increasing year on year, and will continue to do so.
But, there is no need for them to do so.
I video conference all the time for work. The idea that it is as effective as in-person meeting is ridiculous. I have to travel a lot and hate it . I would much rsther stay at home but it is necessary to be effective.
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?
Yup, exactly. In practical terms it doesn't matter. There's just an emotional problem (lifelong Tories voting for Corbyn PM) and a political problem (LDs seen to back Corbyn lose ex-Tories).
And a moral problem in putting a man who has commemorated Jew-killers in charge of almost a million British Jews.
I wish I had the luxury of taking a 16 day sailing holiday every time my job required me to be in new York...
So if environmental activists travel by plane, they are rank hypocrites, but if they travel in a low carbon manner, they are out of touch toffs?
She is travelling to present a talk at a UN Climate Change conference (as I understand it).
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
The whole point of a conference is to allow people who are interested in the relevant matter to be in one place to stimulate far more discussion amd thought generation. Try telling a comic book obsessive that watching video feeds is just as good as going to ComicCon.
Conferences had a function once -- but no more.
You obviously don't have to be in the same place anymore to stimulate discussion and thought generation. It is much more efficient to use video conferencing. For a start, Greta is wasting a huge amount of time travelling to give a speech -- which would be seen by more people if she stayed at home and put it on youtube.
The only reason conferences still exist is people love to travel. Of course, it is much more fun flying to New York (or zero-carbon yachting to NYC) and staying in a smart hotel on Fifth Avenue than doing hard thinking about climate change.
Conferences (like air travel) are increasing year on year, and will continue to do so.
But, there is no need for them to do so.
I video conference all the time for work. The idea that it is as effective as in-person meeting is ridiculous. I have to travel a lot and hate it . I would much rsther stay at home but it is necessary to be effective.
Not a fan myself, though as you say there are times it is necessary, but a bit like electronic voting many of the apparent benefits seem to be taken on faith as far as I can see. A little hilariously the government pledged something like 10 years ago to allow remote attendance of council meetings, and it still hasn't happened. In England anyway, I believe it is legal to do so in Wales, and possibly Scotland, though I don't know if any actually operate in such a way.
She has said she will VoNC at the earliest opportunity
Switching political parties should be a condition that can trigger a recall petition.
How would that work? The Brexit Party does not have members, for example.
If a person is elected as a Conservative and turns out to be a lib dem, you should be able to send them back. Just as if you order the fish and it turns out to be a hamburger.
Again, how would that work?
Are you thick?
I'm suggesting that if a person elected as, for example, Conservative on their ballot paper crosses the floor and takes, for example, the lib dem whip, the recall of mps act 2015 should be amended such as to make this one of the allowable circumstances that would trigger the recall process.
Got it?
If an MP has the whip withdrawn, does that count?
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
My thought is that if at an election I stick my cross next to "Sarah Wollaston, Conservative then that is what I am voting for. If S. W. ceases to be a Conservative then I am no longer represented by what was on the ballot paper when I voted. Therefore allowong a recall petition at this point seems valid. I don't think this is an unreasonable suggestion.
I like it, but I have once concern:
Simply, this dramatically increases the power of whips in our system.
I think you're right here. The trouble is it's hard to square that with the electorate voting for one thing (explicitly promised in writing on the ballot paper) and ending up with another.
You'd either have to remove party names and symbols from ballot papers - a courageous choice, as sir humphrey might say - or trust the electorate that if an MP were to make a principled stand against their party, enough of the electorate would back them so that they would win as an independent or the recall campaign would fail to secure enough votes to remove them. Either way I'm generally in favour of any move that grants the electorate more opportunities to endorse or reject who govern them.
Just catching up with Newsnight and Dominic Grieve "carefully considering" making Jezza Prime Minister after a VONC?
Surely that's him done with the Tory Party now?
Presumably, but whatever the impact on the Tories it is an encouraging statement from him - whether one likes that plan or not there are a lot of MPs whose words suggest they should be willing to take certain actions, even at the cost of their careers, which they don't live up to. As much as I dislike Grieve if he fears and hates Brexit as much as he seems to (any Brexit, lets not pretend he cares what type) then even making Corbyn PM must be something he should consider doing. If he doesn't, he is acknowledging Brexit is not as bad as he claims it is.
Really, if the plan is just to ask for an extension and then immediately have an election, does it really matter much who the prime minister is?
Yup, exactly. In practical terms it doesn't matter. There's just an emotional problem (lifelong Tories voting for Corbyn PM) and a political problem (LDs seen to back Corbyn lose ex-Tories).
The LDs have been telling us incessantly that the most important thing in the world is to block Brexit, and particularly a No Deal Brexit.
If a majority of MPs have the will, this is a straightforward way of blocking No Deal - or at least averting it for the time being - and probably coupling it with a general election will also give them the best chance of the EU agreeing an extension.
If the Lib Dems sabotage it and we leave with No Deal, then I think people will be entirely justified in never believing a word they say again.
Comments
Or a series of vonc'd PMs leads us to our destiny, a Chris Williamson premiership.
Is resigning the whip enough, or would one have to join another party?
(Asking for a friend.)
So what? Party politics is (or should be) dead.
I am now transitioning. I hope I will have PB's support as I become Mrs Byronic, in coming months.
Thanks.
Survation today has the LDs leading with voters earning over £40 000, the Tories are the party of middle income earners and lead with voters earning £20 000 to £40 000 and Labour are still the party of the poor leading with voters earning under £20 000
In the case of your examples, a serial rebel should be dealt with in a manner seen fit by their party. If they're expelled, i.e. no longer the representative the electorate voted for, I would argue this should also allow the electorate to start gathering signatures for a recall. If not enough object to the MPs new status, then that seems fair.
The unfortunate case of Sheffield Hallam is a good example of where such an addition to the recall process in the event of an MP being booted out of their party would be a good example of why this is a reasonable idea.
After all, I thought you remainers were all in favour of the electorate being allowed to change their minds?
Opposition parties should make it clear that if there is to be another referendum it should happen before any GE. Also what else would be on the ballot?
Yes 1/14
No 5/1
(Hills)
I cannot keep up with every little nuance
I don't see what he gains from this. It is not cunning, it is very clumsy. I thought his advisors were meant to be smart, even if he is stupid?
Perhaps they do not want to win, and they are happy with parasitising the Labour Party, and settling old scores.
It is a rather poor evil contest, like that between a kitten and a puppy.
particularly when there is no shortage of truly evil people in the world.
Good luck to Greta. She scares the people who need to be scared.
Best of luck. You seem to change sides on a regular basis anyways
There is really very little need to travel to conferences any more. She could present remotely. Zoom is excellent.
While she is travelling in a "zero carbon yacht", most of the other delegates to the UN will be ... err ... flying.
I really don't think we will get anywhere if celebs and rich people and UN delegates and so on take planes and then lecture poor people about climate changes.
Gnu elected, A50 extension agreed (or A50 revoked)*, then government dissolved. GE follows.
* If they could find time to repeal the FTPA then that would be a useful day spent too.
So he is one of those weirdo party loyalists that just think what they are told by HQ? Carlotta used to be unbearable for that. But even she has given up on this current lot it would seem. I find HY’s loyalty depressing.
Only a moron would deny this. You are not a moron.
She does not deserve to be a parish councillor, let alone an MP.
So, yes piss and wind is a good description.
Swinson's response is pure politics, since she must be aware that organising a second referendum before October 31 is literally impossible. The LibDems seem more interested in scoring points than actually preventing No Deal.
We should be applauding and celebrating that, even if one disagrees with her stance.
Surely that's him done with the Tory Party now?
LOL.
They don't have the votes for a referendum against a near-united Tory Party, and under these circumstances the Tory Party would be near-united against it, so the best they can do is an extension for a GE, and a referendum after that. Having a referendum would also put Corbyn in Downing Street for much longer, so it seems like a weird thing to complain about if you think Corbyn is going to cheat.
Since his only majority is for calling the extension and the HoC could VONC him at any time, there's no danger that Corbyn will not call the election he's promising. So the only way he could screw them would be by not really asking for the extension and crashing out, which is *definitely* not what his supporters want, and would crucify him in the GE. He couldn't do much else because no majority + purdah.
Having got a GE and won a majority I suppose Corbyn could drop the referendum and just do Brexit, but again that would enrage large parts of his party and the voters he needs and he would likely be VONCed, sacked as leader or both.
Whether he's the best caretaker candidate to get the votes needed to get rid of Boris isn't clear, but there's nothing particularly sketchy or about this move.
I'm not demanding an automatic by-election nor her public hanging. Just suggesting the right of the people who elected her under one thing on the ballot paper to be able to recall her, now that she has publicly disavowed what she was elected to on said ballot paper. Seems reasonable enough to me.
Wollaston hoped for promotion under Cameron, following the expected Remain victory (a victory of 70% over 30% was, I believe, your prediction).
Her infiltration into the Leave campaign (always weird, given her soft right, europhile, Lib Demmy, west country doctor background) was just another piece of desperately shite Cameron politicking (why you so over-estimated him and Osborne, we will never know). Either way her defection was a total failure and a gaffe and she has since decided she is not just a non-Leaver, she wants a second vote and Remain, and now she joins the Lib Dems?! This is painful.
Own your mistakes, Nabavi.
Those who say PBers never change are clearly WRONG.
And the amount of carbon involved in the manufacture of that yacht is probably not insignificant either.
It’s a silly publicity stunt. The best thing she could have done was not turn up but do the talk remotely. But it wouldn’t have made such a story would it, not when lots of people have been doing this for the last decade or more without getting public praise.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49352250
The responses from the party leaders is basically...."that's a no from me"...
Apparently I "don't understand how business works."
Simply, this dramatically increases the power of whips in our system.
She will be losing tactical Labour votes quickly at this rate.
Also, imagine the Labour Party split, with more than half the party departing.
Which of the two groups is the one that gets to be hammered via Recall Elections?
But as it’s quite likely we’ll have a general election shortly, any such hypothetical petition, were it to have existed, would probably be overtaken by events anyway.
To be clear, I don't particularly like her, and I think she has been flakey on Brexit. I very much disagree with her in that she voted against the deal, and therefore bears some responsibility for the mess we are in. But no more - in fact less - than the PM, Foreign Secretary, or Leader of the House.
You're not dim, I respect your opinion.
The trouble is it took you six paragraphs to explain Jezza's position and I'm still not quite convinced, or even clear about it. So even if you are right, this is a very hard sell. I can see why the LDs are saying PAH!
Corbyn needs to muscle up and say I will lead a six month government into a new vote! End!
But he won't. Because he doesn't want to.
Lol. I think there might be bigger fish to fry.
However, making only your limited change would be bad. It would give the whips another means to threaten independent-minded MPs, which in my mind would distance MPs from their electorate.
Given we’d probably not have been talking about her otherwise, it appears to be quite effective.
You obviously don't have to be in the same place anymore to stimulate discussion and thought generation. It is much more efficient to use video conferencing. For a start, Greta is wasting a huge amount of time travelling to give a speech -- which would be seen by more people if she stayed at home and put it on youtube.
The only reason conferences still exist is people love to travel. Of course, it is much more fun flying to New York (or zero-carbon yachting to NYC) and staying in a smart hotel on Fifth Avenue than doing hard thinking about climate change.
Conferences (like air travel) are increasing year on year, and will continue to do so.
But, there is no need for them to do so.
Just like Prince Harry, Emma Thompson, et al.
Effective publicity for climate change, I rather doubt it.
That said, it's obviously going to be a hard sell for LDs, and even harder for VONC-curious Tories. A different caretaker might be better, but even if the Labour front bench will go for that, it's not clear whether they could take all their leave-supporting MPs with them.
The absolutely last thing the LibDems want is for Labour to stop Brexit.
You'd either have to remove party names and symbols from ballot papers - a courageous choice, as sir humphrey might say - or trust the electorate that if an MP were to make a principled stand against their party, enough of the electorate would back them so that they would win as an independent or the recall campaign would fail to secure enough votes to remove them. Either way I'm generally in favour of any move that grants the electorate more opportunities to endorse or reject who govern them.
If a majority of MPs have the will, this is a straightforward way of blocking No Deal - or at least averting it for the time being - and probably coupling it with a general election will also give them the best chance of the EU agreeing an extension.
If the Lib Dems sabotage it and we leave with No Deal, then I think people will be entirely justified in never believing a word they say again.